Lines You Don’t Cross | Boundaries with the Opposite Sex

Moral failure doesn’t start big, it starts with pride, secrecy, and small compromises. In this episode, Brody and JB discuss boundaries with the opposite sex and share simple, practical guardrails to protect marriages, ministries, and singles before trouble starts.

They talk about fearing the Lord, hating sin, and living in confession and accountability, along with clear boundaries: no secret conversations, wise counseling practices, healthy digital habits, and counting the real cost of a short thrill.

Choose steady faithfulness and build patterns now you’ll be grateful for later.

James 1

1 John 2

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Transcript

Why Boundaries Matter Now

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, in this week's episode of No Sanity Required, we're going to talk about healthy boundaries with the opposite sex. Specifically, we're going to talk a lot about married men and women, what it looks like to interact with people other than your spouse, and then we're really going to get into the topic of what is appropriate for a person in ministry leadership. You know, what should a pastor do in terms of setting boundaries and parameters? And for context, well, first off, we've been wanting to do this episode for a while. It's been on our list for a while. Uh, even going back to the Brooke Loving Good episode that we did back in the early fall. And in that um in that episode, Brooke and I were talking offset, and she said, Hey, I think it'd be good to do an episode on this, this idea of parameters and boundaries. And so we put it on the list. JB and I have talked about it a good bit, but we just haven't done it. Well, this past week, one of our partner churches had a moral failure with one of their pastors, and it's like, I mean, it's made, kind of made headlines as as it were. Um it's being talked about, it's it's very public knowledge. And um, so that church right now is reeling from this, trying to land on their feet, and they will, they're solid, they'll land on their feet, they'll address it, and they'll move forward. But as a staff, we've been praying about it. Um we've three mornings this week. Uh we have staff meeting uh for prayer Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday morning every week. And this week at those eight o'clock um meetings, we prayed as a staff for this church. It this this came out on Tuesday. Um, but I had talked to the pastor on Monday night. So Tuesday morning we prayed anonymously for this church, and then Wednesday, Thursday as a staff, we really unpacked it. What are the lessons we can learn? And um so it just kind of put this back on our radar. It happens all too often. I hate it, but it doesn't change the fact that we got to know what we're about, what our job is, and and what we're responsible to the Lord for. So today, JB and I are gonna have a conversation. The guys behind the camera probably chime in. Um, we've had a great uh sort of pregame warm-up talking through some of this, and I'm excited to get into this because I think it's gonna be helpful for people. So welcome to No Sanity Required.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

The last couple episodes were obviously about your dad, which this is off script, but I am, I just want to emphasize again how grateful I am. And I've received a ton of feedback. People have left comments on the episode just saying how encouraging and convicting it was. So I know that was a hard and awkward conversation, but I'm grateful for that. Yeah, thanks. But um one of the questions that was asked during that episode was like, how has your dad's moral failure kind of influenced you and your personal life and then this ministry? And one of the things that you mentioned was your marriage and kind of boundaries on that. And like you said in the intro, we've kind of been toying with this episode for a while, and then just with like recent circumstances, um, it's go time, you know, to talk about it. Um, so with that being said, I would like to hear from you like you have done this for a while, you've

Ego, Pride, And The Slippery Slope

SPEAKER_03 3:30

been in ministry for a while. I want to hear like a few practical, like hard and fast rules that you put in place um that just don't ever change. And then also I kind of want you to talk about because it's easy to feel discouraged. And we even talked about this with your dad's episode. It's easy to feel discouraged of like another person fell or like it's inevitable, you know, like if this guy can do it, well, I'm toast, you know what I mean? And so I kind of want you to talk about that as well of like how often do you see this, and kind of if you can, like pluck out the silver linings if that makes sense. Of like, yeah, although this happens a lot or like whatever, it's not we're not all doomed, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah. Um I appreciate it. Uh I appreciate the way you set that up because I think that does that's a that's an easy way to approach this, it's a helpful way to approach it. Um first off, um, I think it's good to to sort of draw some some distinctions between ministry, non-ministry. So in other words, does a pastor have a different standard than uh just a married guy with a coworker who's female? Right. And I would say that's complicated. Um I think the safe answer is whatever standard a pastor should have, why don't you just make that your standard too?

SPEAKER_03 4:51

And that'll probably keep you out of the No harm in that, you know, like no bad's gonna come from that.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You're not gonna go, I mean, I was a little too strenuous and strict with my parameters with the opposite sex.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Um and then also I think um to that point, before I answer before I start kind of answering the question, uh some people work with a lot of members of the opposite sex in a really a really interactive way. And I want to start by saying the number one I think the slippery slope comes from when your ego is being stroked. And so there's no room for ego in the life of a believer. Like you've got to put that sucker to death every single day. Was it was it what was the dude that was the psych psychologist? Uh Freud. Freud, I remember and I remember this goes back to like I don't remember if this was high school or college. Remember taking a psych class where remember there were like the three, there's like the ego, the superego, and I don't remember what all those things were, but there's three categories of like the I'm I know I'm butchering this, so you psych people. Give me a break. I don't even know what you're doing. You don't know what I'm talking about. So Freud talked about different levels of like your personal psyche. Well, Freud wasn't a believer, he had abandoned the faith. And when you when you study him, what what he's talking about is what we as Christians know, which is just pride and ego and self. Like we call that the flesh. Right. You know, or the mind that is set on the flesh. Okay, so so anytime science gets something right, it's not going to contradict what scripture teaches. So when when psychiatrists and psychologists start to unpack what's going on in the human psyche, the scripture has probably already addressed it. And what the Bible says is the mindset on the flesh is death. And that's in Romans 8. Um, and then in Galatians 5, Paul says, Um, so I say, live by the spirit or walk by the spirit, and you won't carry out the desires of the flesh. For the mindset on the flesh is is uh for the mind that is set on the flesh is contrary to the mind that is set on the spirit. He talks about this conflict that goes on in in a person's mind. And so we talk about the the the struggle between the flesh and the spirit. And um I think it's important to recognize that inappropriate relationships between men and women, one hundred percent of the time, one hundred percent of the time, that's crazy. There's not many things in life you can say 100%. 100% of the time it's about ego. It's about pride, it's about having your your flesh fed, your ego stroked. So for, you know, in a in a like the plainest, clearest example would be a guy and his in a guy is in his marriage, he's no longer the center of attention. Maybe it's the busyness of life, maybe it's one once a woman has children, they become the priority of her affection. You know, a mothering instinct is so strong. And so in most in most marriages or most relationships, the mothering, nurturing affection is stronger than the romantic affection, I would say. That's been my observation. Um that doesn't mean I mean some women are very romantic.

SPEAKER_05 8:33

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Some men are very romantic, and so maybe they they keep that romantic flair alive or whatever. But I'm just telling you, when a woman and a man come together and they're joined in a marriage union and they are the object of one another's affection and attention and sexual experiences and expressions, the longer they're in that relationship, when you start to introduce other relationships into that, it starts to get more complex. When you add children, that I can tell you from personal experience, not just in my marriage, but in thirty years of pastoral ministry, that men are when when a man is no longer the center of that woman's affection, but then the gal at work starts to really stroke his ego, that is a very slippery slope. And that that relationship at home could be still pretty healthy, right? But he's he's like kind of gets bored with it or kind of gets cold to it. Or maybe um he still loves his wife a lot and she loves him and things are healthy, but then someone at work starts to stroke his ego, you know. She starts to give him attention, she starts to physically touch him, you know, like she puts her hand on his arm and there's something electric that happens. And that's where I think it's you know, it's there's we talk about how this doesn't happen overnight, right? But it can happen really quick. Right. It can happen very quick. Uh uh eye contact, physical touch, and all of a sudden something, and I can't, I was trying to think, have I ever had an experience in my life? Because uh what we're gonna get into in this episode is how safeguarded I've tried to be. And I couldn't think of a specific instance, but I know there's been a time where a woman maybe, maybe touched my arm, you know, or gripped my shoulder, and I'm like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Flags go up.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Right. Even this is like so minuscule, but like there's been times for me where it's obvious, like, oh, this this person will come up to me after a service, and I'm sitting in there and it's just me and him, and I'm like, okay, I'll I'll try to like end the conversation and it keeps going. I'm like, all right, like nothing like physical has happened, but it's clear. I'm like, okay, this person is trying, like, you know, not anything crazy, but they're putting their head out there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

They're yeah, you're getting attention, they're making that attention felt, you know. Um, man, this is such a the more I'm thinking about how to even answer this, this is such a complex layered thing because there are women who are vulnerable. There are women who are predators, stalking a dude who's in leadership or marriage. There are women that want to win the married guy over. There's some conversation.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

It's like a competition for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. Then there's women that are just wounded and fragile, and then they don't mean anything, but then they start to receive something that they haven't received from the affection or the attention that that pastor might give them or that counselor. And then there's just the slippery slope of how did we get here? Right. And I've seen that happen.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

So I think that recognizing the pride, the ego that that that a hundred percent of the time is being And just to generalize that in everything is like you're being prideful to say, Oh, I'm I'm I can not take sin seriously.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Or like, you know, just like that goes for everything, being like, oh, I'm above sin, which we know if we uh rely on the Lord for strength, yes, we can conquer sin, but also you can't be stupid and be like, That's right, I'm above sin or I'm above temptation, because we know just the reality of it, we're fleshly beings, we're sinful beings. Like we're gonna fall if we keep putting ourselves in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

You know, it's that's right.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Hard to say, but that's you know, it's the world that we live in, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

If you're not gonna be able to do it, and the string the scripture speaks to that. The scripture speaks really clearly to that. Um, and two two passages that just come to my mind that are like go-tos. Um, one of them is in James, and this is this is a very familiar passage.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Is this a new Bible?

SPEAKER_01 12:49

This is a brand new Bible. I can tell. It's just not been pages are crispy. Yeah, it's not been, it's not that new, but it hasn't been used. I'm gonna start using it. Um James chapter one, everybody's familiar with this passage, beginning in verse 13. Remember, when you're being tempted, do not say God is tempting me. God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions, and when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. So he's saying temptation often comes from within.

SPEAKER_06 13:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Well, that's a reference to pride, right? And then in first John, first John chapter two, um, verse 15, he says, Do not love this world, nor the things it offers you. For when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure. So sometimes I think sheer craving for physical pleasure, which is obviously what drives um that the pornographic addiction that so many people struggle with. A craving for everything we see, and right here, and pride in our achievements and possessions. So pride, you know, I think it was Augustine or Augustine, however you say that, who said uh pride is the mother of all sin. Right. So, so literally pride is the mother of all sin, and he paints this picture in your mind's eye that it's pregnant and it wants to give birth to that sin. That's pride.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So um so I think people that fall into uh adultery and fornication, it's it's it's a pride issue because it's the ego being struck. So the guy that's no longer feeling like he's the man at the house, the woman that's no longer feeling like she's wanted, she's no longer the object of desire. Well, I guarantee you there's some other dude, she'll be the object of his desire. That's always like that's always uh like there's always somebody that will stroke that ego. And you don't have to look that far. So I think recognizing this is a pride issue. Um now it becomes a every single day I'm trying to put to death the pride in my life. So that's the first thing. So recognizing if it's pride, the first safeguard or boundary is maybe not as much a safeguard and and boundary as it is an offensive act.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Right. Like a mental, a mental check.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

A mental check today. I gotta I gotta put this in front of me. I gotta put pride to death. I gotta put the desires that don't honor the Lord, the the desires that are gonna drag me away and kill me. I need to put those to death. I need to separate from those desires.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Where is it that says everything brought to light is made whole? Like I think about that often where it's like, okay, am I keeping this in my brain? Or even if it's not brought to the light, it's brought to the Christ, it's brought by confession, therefore it is brought to light, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

That I think that's that's a huge importance. Keep it in front of you. Keep it in the light. Yeah, keep it in the light, keep it in front of you, keep it in the light. And so when we talk about keeping it in the light, now that's that that gets into another boundary, which for me is I'm going to have zero relationships with females that are that there's any shadow or secret in.

SPEAKER_05 16:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

So I'm not gonna ever have a conversation with a female that I don't um that I wouldn't want little listening in on or that I wouldn't share with little.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

There's no, like I will not, there is not gonna be a there is not a situation, there's never been a situation, nor will there be a situation where I would share

Practical Lines For Pastors And Laity

SPEAKER_01 16:30

something in in an intimate conversation with a female that I wouldn't want little to know or that I wouldn't share with little.

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

So that's that's a boundary that I have that this goes back to the episodes about my dad. I don't think I would have had that boundary if it wasn't for my dad.

SPEAKER_05 16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So that's where I think I owe him uh his fall. I owe a debt of gratitude to some degree because I wouldn't have I don't know, I mean, I wouldn't have thought that. I'd be like, Right. I'd have just been sloppy with that, probably. Yeah. You know? Um, so when now in in the course of pastoral responsibilities, I may counsel someone. Um, and I've had plenty of situations where a woman begins to open up with something that I'm like, uh, that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Maybe not. I'm not the one.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

I'm not the person to have this conversation with. Right. And that's where I'm gonna bring in a female counselor or bring in my wife, or bring in, bring in you, bring in Nikki, bring, you know. Yeah. Like I can think, uh, I'll tell you uh an example. Uh my typical counseling spot is the front porch of the coop.

SPEAKER_05 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Uh I would love to have one dollar for every, not every minute, every hour, every conversation I've had on the front porch of the coop.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

You'd be a millionaire.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah, we would have so much money.

unknown 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Because that building's been there since 05. 21 years. There's no telling. I there have been nights where I sit on that porch till 3 a.m., just one after another. You know, people are waiting patiently because they need pastoral counsel. Okay, so I'm talking, I'm sitting on the porch, I'm talking to a lady. I don't really know her. She was uh she was it this was during a summer camp. So this is youth camp, and she's a chaperon. And I don't really know her.

SPEAKER_05 18:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Um, and I don't feel any spark of attraction. Right. Like I want to be very clear.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Um, I'm just doing my job. I'm doing what God's called me to do. And she, I mean, it happens so fast, I can't rein it in. She basically shares things about her sex life with her husband. And it and it she spills it all out in about three sentences before I can be, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Okay. Listen, I don't but at that point, this woman, I believe, is being very transparent and vulnerable. She's she's just spun out.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

She doesn't have like an ulterior motive.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

That's what I'm trying to say. But for you, you're kind of like, uh I'm like, oh no, we can't go there. So she doesn't have any intention or ulterior motive. But sh and like clearly her marriage is in crisis. Her husband is addicted to pornography. That's what she's sharing. That's where the conversation started. But that's where I'll go. You know what? Well, I don't remember her name now. Let's say her name was um Brittany. I was trying to think of a name that I don't have a picture of a face to go with. I started to say Tiffany, I was like, no, Tiffany Long. Wasn't Tiffany Long? So this lady's name is Britney, we'll say. And I said, hey, listen, I want to help you, and I want to get you the help you need. We're getting into an area that I could have some conversations with your husband.

SPEAKER_06 19:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

But if we're gonna have this conversation, I need my wife here.

SPEAKER_06 19:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Or I can I can direct you to one of the ladies here at Snowbird. So I think that's a boundary. There there are area there are no fly zones in conversation in pastoral counseling. Sure. I'm not gonna go there.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

And I also think that can fall under pride as well, thinking, no, I can handle this conversation. Or like almost the savior complex of like, no, I need to be the one to counsel this woman. But it's like you're humble enough to say, no, even though I know I'm capable of walking her through this, it's inappropriate. Like it's putting me in a weird position. I'm gonna punt that to someone else, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

I think that's the right word, inappropriate. What's appropriate? This is not appropriate.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Once again, if you like you said, if you couldn't tell little or little couldn't be in on the conversation, then that's weird. Like, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

But yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, so I think that's a boundary. Uh the boundary of um, I have no secrets with a woman. This is kind of the same thing. Yeah. But if she says, I need you not to tell anybody this, I go, ooh, time out.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Okay. That I I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_05 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Just tell her, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_05 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Um obviously the the the obvious ones, the big ones are I'm not gonna be in a car with a woman.

SPEAKER_06 20:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

You know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be in a room with a closed door with a woman.

SPEAKER_06 21:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

I've I have had some conversations earlier on where I met with a woman one-on-one in a closed door, but there was a window, like in if you picture Muggs' office. Yes. That used to be my office, yeah, there's a window. Yeah, so I've got that window open, people are coming and going. Yeah, and we're talking about something. And in that situation, um I I think it was it was kind of case by case. But even then, um I've become even maybe more hyper-vigilant about it. And so I would rather just sit out in the open. So my my meetings are either gonna be on the porch of the coop or in the metal building.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Just at a table. Um yeah, so I'm not gonna talk about her intimate life, her life of of intimacy with whether it's with a husband or boyfriend or promiscuity or whatever. I'm not gonna talk about that. We'll get a we'll get a female to do that. Um, what else? Have I set any other boundaries to you all? Offset.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Um, I would like to talk about kind of your experience with your home because you and Little are super hospital hospitality. You and Little are super hospitable. And like even Brody and I kind of have a weird dynamic because we work together, like we're co-workers. So there's like that level of prof professionalism. But also his daughter is one of my best friends. So I'm gonna be over at the house. I'm gonna sleep over. And I would like you to kind of talk about that. And I can maybe share like my experience too of like this is Brody's house, but Lely's friends are over, or Juju's friends are over. And like just kind of how you go about that. Cause I think maybe Chris said you can always come up with an excuse or something to be like, well, it's my house, or like the girls were over, but you've done a really good job of maintaining that like warm, hospitable, inviting presence. You're not cold and like you don't speak to us, you know, but you're still inviting, but with that very it's very clear, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Like nobody's getting creeped out.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Yes, exactly. But you're still like fun, you'll hang out for a bit, you know, stuff like that. So I'd like you to talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Okay, yeah. Because I think probably most girls, I don't know if you've had this experience, JB. Most girls have probably been have probably had a friend whose dad was creepy.

SPEAKER_05 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

You know, definitely. And and dudes that are consuming pornography, yeah, they are only always thinking about sex. Yeah. I want to be really clear about this. Dudes that consume, when a guy's consuming pornography and his teenage daughter's friends come over, and already somebody's gonna be like, no, like, that's extreme. That's too radical. That's not, you're being too nope. I'm telling you, I'm telling you right now, when a dude is consuming pornography and his daughter's teenage friends come over, he has sexual ideas. I'm just telling you. I've uh thirty years. I'm just telling you, that's a reality. And without going in any more detail than what we did in those previous episodes, I had some hard conversations with my dad about what does this do to your mind?

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yep. And so Say you told me this and the guys off camera about like the addiction is stronger than like a an addiction to heroin or something.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

That's right. That's right. Yeah, like um like even the science now proves that the the the pathways that it the neurological pathways that get cut into your brain are are stronger than the ones cut and caused from heroin or like strong drug addictions.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

So And that on top of pornography is so easy to get. You don't have to find it like heroin or pay for it, like you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

It's right on your phone.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

And then um, yeah, so there's the physical effect that's a a legitimate neurological effect that starts to warp and alter the way a person's brain functions.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Just like any addiction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Think about that. That it it warps

Counseling Women With Wisdom

SPEAKER_01 25:00

the way your brain functions, even to the point um that to some degree maybe it can't even be controlled. There's a point where it's gonna take like a detox and a c and a purge and a cleansing out just of your brain. Right. So that's there's science on that. I I had a book um about rewiring the brain that I read a couple years ago that was not put out by Christians, non-Christian. And so you're seeing now in the scientific world um a lot of work being done on the effects of pornography. Because when a person consumes porn, there's this dopamine release. We talk a lot about dopamine. Right now, that's a popular topic. And so, you know, I prefer to get dopamine dumps from riding roller coasters or you know, the three-man swing or you know, whatever, but but that's what's happening. Well, dopamine is the more porn you consume, the more you have to consume to get that dopamine release.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Quote unquote high. That's right. It's just like a drug.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

It's just like a drug.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

So it had there's a physical effect, there's psychological effect, there's neurological effect. And so when a dude is and his brain's really under that influence, and then there's girls around. Right. I'm just telling you, you do what you want to with that information if you're watching this. But like I was talking to my one of my daughters the other day, my youngest one, and I was trying to explain to her. Again, I explained this to my older girls as they're coming through, and now I've got one that's in high school, the last one in high school, and I'm saying your body becomes very objectified by boys that are consuming porn. Even okay, I want to be clear too, a pubescent boy that's not consuming porn, which I don't know who that is, but if that's those guys exist, that's still the struggle, is the sexual desire.

SPEAKER_05 26:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

And so just recognizing there's a real desire here that is is gonna run, is gonna run rampant in a dude's head and brain and mind and thought process. So to your point or your question, in my home, when girls are in my home, I want them to feel the warmth of a dad who loves his daughters, loves his wife, a husband who loves his wife. Like the best example, the the clearest picture of Jesus I can ever give someone is when they come in my home, is not to open the Bible and teach them the gospel. Right. It's for them to see how I love my wife.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

That's the as far as the example. Now I could teach them from the scripture, obviously, Christology, who Jesus is, what he's done. But the example of Christ-like living is gonna be the way I love my wife. And then the clearest example of God as a father is gonna come from the way I treat my kids. Sure. And so my daughters, the way I interact with them is saying a lot to those girls about who God is and who Christ is. And so that for you know, for me, that's what's steering even the way that we show hospitality to to young women. Um and we've also had Little and I have had multiple grown, young grown women live with us for periods of time. You know, there was a couple different girls that came out of Little's jail ministry when she used to do that that stayed with us for three or four months.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Even Katie Cousins when she was with you.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

She lives with us. Which and Katie, I I will say, Katie Cousins has crossed a line into she's literally like a daughter. Yeah, and now and again, that's yeah, don't take that out of context. Like, that's right. That could become people could say, okay, so there is a point where you don't have to have these parameters anymore. No, there's still parameters, but Katie Cousins and I'll be in a car together.

SPEAKER_06 28:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Like we like we drove, I drove her to the airport.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

She really has she's for over 10 years now, for 13 years, she's lived with us. Yeah, she's family. So I think there is there's some caveats and some some sort of um milestones in relationship that um because she she has a room in our house. She's got her own bedroom in our house, and she lives with us. Um but back to the the hospitality piece, yeah. I just when girls are at the house, I'm gonna be present, I'm gonna make my presence felt in the in a warm and safe way.

SPEAKER_06 29:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I'm gonna be intentional with that.

SPEAKER_06 29:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I'm gonna be very um intentional with the words I say. Um, like with you, it's easy. I know your parents, you come from a healthy family situation. Um some of the girls that are in y'all's friend group and that come over, they don't have that.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

So I want to show them that, but I also want to show them that in a way that they feel very trusting, right, safe. There's this is a person that doesn't want anything from me. So that's where little and I are are we always gonna be on the same page with that stuff. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

I even think of times where like even tonight a bunch of girls are coming over for a movie night, or like I remember a few months ago, we went over to watch a game, a ball game. And it's like you might be there first and laying on your couch and on the recliner or whatever, but it's like as soon as girls come in and sit on the couch, not to be weird or rugged or harsh, but you're just gonna remove yourself from the situation. Even though you're in a room full of people, nothing's gonna happen, but even just like the appearance of like, well, I'm just not gonna be sitting on the same couch with my daughter's friends, you know, and you'll just go sit on another couch or sit on the floor or sit on the bean bag or whatever. Yeah. And it's not like this harsh, rugged, like I gotta move now, and like make it awkward. But it's like, I've just noticed you'll just there's no room for allegations to stand or like to be thrown because it's just yeah, I think at this point it's become you've put it a pattern and a habit over and over again that it is now just a pattern and a habit and like normal,

Hospitality Without Compromise At Home

SPEAKER_03 31:00

the way you live, the way you and Little act with each other, the way you act with Laley's friends, Juju's friends. Um, not to say you can't, we talked about this before and I'd like your input on this, but it is something that you have to constantly, like we said earlier, keep in front of you. So, like I'm trying to think of how to word this. It's like a pattern in your life now. It's a habit now that it does come naturally, but I'm sure that there's still times that you have to check yourself in, like, like you said, that might be just every morning, you putting that in front of you, you bringing it to the light, to where now even that process is a habit. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah, it does. Yeah, we we talk about, you know, you talk about how long it takes to form a habit. Right. When when we're talking about this type of an issue or situation, it's it's it's I appreciate you're using the word pattern. It becomes not a habit, but a pattern of life. So the pattern of how we're gonna live is is sort of those consistencies in your life that are are kind of accepted by everyone that that's if you go to the hallway house, this is how it is, or this is what's going on. Or um uh yeah, so I think patterns create parameters and safeguards within themselves. So, so my habit or pattern of how I'm interacting with people, it becomes it becomes a safeguard unto itself.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

And this is like a practical thing that you do that I've seen you do with everyone is the head, yeah, the head shake, the head rub, where it's like that's a way that you're showing warmth and like, hey, I'm glad you're here, but it's not like hugging or you know, tickling or something weird. Like Brody, I think probably every girl that's worked on staff has experienced you put your hand on their head and like just give it a little shake. And it's like now it's that is a pattern of like, oh, that's Brody's way of saying, like it's endearing, good job, or like nooks, or like little hug. It's just that little like head shake, and it's not weird, but it's still just like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

I'll even do that, you know, when y'all are all on the couch watching the movie and I'm like, okay, they're watching a chick flick, I'm gonna go do something different. I'm gonna go to bed. Usually y'all start that movie so late.

SPEAKER_04 33:10

I know.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

A lot of times I'm like, all right, I'm going to bed. And I go around and give the head squeeze, you know, just the little yeah, it's a it's a it's a show of affection that's very safe and warm but not threatening. So yeah, I think and the the reason I think it's important to talk about that is I'm I'm not saying we need to set parameters where you're just cold to people and rude and unapproachable. You can you can set those parameters where people feel the warmth and love that you have for them, but they don't feel anything that would be inappropriate.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Yeah. Like Andrew before we started filming, mentioned the what is it, Billy Graham.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

The Billy Graham rule rule.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

And he said that's kind of a hot topic right now because he will never be in a room alone with a woman without his wife, or like he just has very strict parameters, which is fine. Like you said, I don't think everyone anyone's ever been like, man, I had too many rules with the opposite opposite sex, you know. But that can be seen as controversial or toxic, quote unquote. Um, but it's like I don't know, I think even that can that being thrown out as toxic can be prideful. Cause even if you don't mind sharing, we film at North Campus. So it's about a five-minute drive back to main campus. And uh, like we say, we have three guys with us, sometimes even more behind the cameras filming. And Brody's car was a shop down the road. And he was gonna bum a ride off of one of the guys. And then it just ended up like I would had left. I was the only one left in the parking lot. And instead of Brody just asking for the five-minute ride to the shop, you walked to the shop, which to me, I could be offended and be like, how dare he not trust me? But to me, it's like, no, one, I appreciate that you're not putting me in a compromising situation or position, but also I know that you're not thinking I'm gonna bust a move or like, you know, it's just like you said, it's the appearance of it. And so if you don't mind talking a little bit about that and kind of like the Billy Graham rule, like your thoughts on like, is that toxic? Is it normal, like stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, that that situation that you're describing, I was uh my car was at Baker's shop getting tires put on, my truck was down there getting a set of tires put on it. And I had ended up here at North Campus without a ride. And so then, yeah, I was gonna jump in one of the guys, get dropped off at Baker's, it's on the way back to main campus. And when I realized I'm in the parking lot uh on the phone and I realized, oh, everybody's leaving, and JB's the last person pulling out the parking lot. I'm like, I I'm gonna walk because if I get in the vehicle with JB, now someone sees me in the car with a woman who's not my wife or and is not my daughter, and they don't know you. You know, they might not know who you are. Um, even if they do know who you are, but they're from the town of Andrews, or it just it's an appearance of evil.

SPEAKER_06 36:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

It's an appearance of evil, and so the scripture says, set aside every appearance of evil. And um yeah, so that's what that was about was uh the the in that situation, in that situation, my concern is not that something inappropriate is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Right, or even that you have that desire or I have that desire.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

That's right. It's it's let's safeguard and protect being above reproach.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Being above reproach term that's used often.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

But I do think you're you fall short of God's standard of being above reproach if you don't recognize, but I am human. Sure. And anything, I could fall into any sin. There's you know, when Paul says there, but for the grace of God go I. There's nothing, I can I can never think I'm above a specific sin. Yeah. You know? And so uh it is in that situation, the the driving thing is appearance of evil. But also I don't ever want to be so haughty to think, oh, I would never fall into sin and in this specific sin or I'm above that.

SPEAKER_05 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

You know, there's too many stories where there's too many stories where guys I used to think if I can just make it in my 50s, it's then from then on it won't be hard. The number of men that fall after 50 is staggering. Staggering. Um the the the guy who was the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, who I know very personally fell morally after 50. Um as a young Christian, the guy that was one of the most influential people that I listened to and read fell morally. Um he's dead and gone now. Um and those guys that those those moral failures happened when they were older.

SPEAKER_05 37:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

And so it's not it's not like there's a point where you hit like, okay, now I'm above that.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

You never are. So you're just always keeping those parameters.

SPEAKER_05 38:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Hey, want to take a minute and invite y'all. We don't have many spots left, but twice a year we do a men's conference that have become uh really really well attended, well known. A lot of guys plan their calendar around it. We have a lot of guys that come twice a year and wanted to answer a couple of questions. One, all be strong events are new teaching content. So if you attended in the fall, this is all new teaching content. If you're planning on attending this coming fall uh at our September Be Strong, this is different teaching content. So every Be Strong is a standalone event. This year, um, the spring event falls on the weekend of March 20, 21, and 22. And uh we're excited about it. Uh it's it's filling up fast. I think we only have a maybe a dozen or so spots left. So if you've got uh an opportunity to join us that weekend, we'd love to see. It's gonna be an awesome weekend. Fellowship, time in the word. Um, it's one of my favorite events that we do each year is the Spring Be Strong event. So hope you'll be able to join us. Um, you can you can register at SWOutfitters.com, go to the app, or call our office, and hopefully we'll see you there. Um, okay, so the Billy Graham to to specifically say, I wanted to just give that caveat about getting older doesn't make this go away. Just like the misnomer young single dudes think, well, when I get married, I won't struggle with sexual immorality or pornography or whatever. Like that's crazy thinking. That's just that's not true. It's a battle you'll fight forever. And so, likewise, just because you get older doesn't make this go away. And so I think the Billy Graham rule, most most pastors I know have some version of that where it's like, I'm not gonna be alone with a woman, I'm not gonna be in a car with a woman, I'm not gonna be behind closed doors with a woman. And that's just common sense. I mean, it's just that's safe. And so that's where I think you could transition over a little bit into saying, just as a man, don't be alone with a woman.

SPEAKER_05 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Um as a woman, don't be alone with a man. If you if you're married, um don't be with a a person who's not your spouse in in a private setting. Now I know it's crazy because there are people that have career fields where they gotta be alone in a vehicle on a road trip. And then I was I was getting uh I was on a flight recently and I get off uh we land, I get off the plane, I'm walking to the airport, it's late in the evening. My speaking responsibility is the next day, I think. And so I'm arriving that evening in a major city, and uh I'm I'm riding one of those trams like they have at Atlanta, you know, where you're going from the gate back to the main terminal or whatever. And I get on behind this couple, and they're having a conversation, and I and it's I realize they're on a work trip and they're you know, they they're just getting to know each other. I don't think they know each other real well. So it seemed like maybe they've come from two places and then they're yeah, and he's like, You want to share an Uber to the hotel? I'm like, you know, here's this couple that um are gonna ride in a car together, go to a hotel, stay in rooms beside each other, probably they're all in the same hall or whatever. Um I know people live in that world, right, and you're just gonna have to be more vigilant. Yes, yeah, you

Above Reproach And The Billy Graham Rule

SPEAKER_01 41:30

gotta be so vigilant and you gotta set parameters that apply to that.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Yeah. I think physically, obviously, but I think what's more dangerous is mentally because you're not gonna go physically if you haven't gone there mentally for the same.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Yeah, let's get into that. Yeah. I think that's that we haven't talked about that.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I think I think more emotional affairs happen. Yes. More uh and you're right. It when once that happens, it's a matter of time.

SPEAKER_06 41:59

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Until it becomes physical. But I think uh I think there we've got to get into how you use technology, your phone, social media. I don't know how many people have had extramarital affairs with a high school fling through social media.

SPEAKER_05 42:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

There's a there's a pastor that listens to this. He's a he's a youth and worship pastor named Justin, who's a good friend of mine and a really faithful friend to Snowbird and actually used to work here. His dad was a pastor, was a youth pastor and an and a deacon or an elder at their church. And he had multiple affairs, but it all started from what I remember. It started with I remember talking to his dad um when he had when he had first fallen into moral failure. And him saying he had, you know, reconnected with a high school girlfriend. Yep. This dude's in his forties and he reconnects with a girl that he had known 25 years ago. And, you know, they remember what that felt like, you know, the the sparks and the excitement and the and the adolescence of that relationship. And now several kids and a couple of career moves later, and you know, a belly that's hanging over you, you know, out of shape, not no longer feeling attractive, or you know, whatever it is, and then they start communicating, and at first it's just text or messaging or whatever, and that's where the affair started. So before he ever jumped in a sack with the lady, he had an affair with her emotionally.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

And so that but really it's the same parameters there for me. Yeah, I'm not gonna text someone that I couldn't let my wife read.

SPEAKER_05 43:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Like if my wife picks up my phone and says, Oh, I'm gonna look at all your texts from yesterday, which little would never do that. Right. Um, I wish sometimes I'm like, maybe I wish she would. And it would be like I could make a really good point with people, you know. But she ain't gonna do that. Yeah. But if she did, if I if I needed to, if somebody said, um, hey, Brody sent me an inappropriate text, I'd be like, No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I literally, if somebody said that to me, okay, no, I didn't. Yes, you did. No, I didn't. I promise you. I promise you. I did not. Show me that text. It does not exist. And uh because I don't send texts that are flirtatious, that could be misinterpreted. Misinterpreted. I s I super evaluate what I'm saying. Yep. Uh if I'm texting a member of the opposite sex. And then if it's someone that I don't have a like in a working relationship, I do it all the time. Like me and you text all the time. I text with Riley Shannon, who's over HR at Snowbird. I text with Cassie Boudreaux, who's front office. Um if I'm t uh Morgan Fridley and Rec, Nikki with counseling, there's a lot of women I text with on a daily basis in a professional capacity. Those are easy to defend. You read it, and you're like, oh, it's just work. Point blank. Yep. But now if I needed to text a female, like I texted a woman this week. She texted me asking for uh it was something ministry related. So I immediately looped little into our text theory. Yeah.

unknown 45:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Now I'm texting this woman and little's reading little's in the text. Little doesn't have to respond to anything, but she's just there. So I think just, you know, again, you're still having safeguards and parameters that that are more for the tech tech communication rather than the physical interaction. Yeah. Same thing.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

Yeah. I liked what you said one of the morning meetings when we were kind of talking about our one of our church partners and that whole situation. You said, like, before you go there and before it goes physical, like run through the hurt and like all the that the all the horribleness that would come out of this. Like, yeah, it might feel good for 10 minutes, you texting with this person or you meeting up with this person, but then think of everything that's blown up out of it. Like so many people are hurt. Your wife, your kids, the church body. Like, there's so much more hurt that will last years for that 10-minute feeling of pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Whole lives destroyed. Yes. Whole lives destroyed. 70 years of destruction.

SPEAKER_05 46:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

You could even say generations of destruction for 10 or 15 minutes of pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 46:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

And and which goes back to the first point I made, which is really about ego. It's not even about the physical impulse, it's about ego.

SPEAKER_05 46:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Um, yeah. I think that's very important to recognize what damage is this going to cause.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah, definitely. I kind of want to get into the topic above reproach. We've used it a lot in this episode. And that's just one of the phrases that you hear a lot in church circles and Christian circles, like be above reproach. And to me, what that means is did you ever play with those? It's like a little guy and he has sticky on his hands and his feet. You could throw him up on the ceiling and then he like falls down. So I remember playing with those all the time when I was a kid and I would get in trouble because they would get stuck on the ceiling in my living room, but whatever. But you know, once you play with them enough, the sticky wears off and you throw it and it immediately falls. So to me, sometimes I think, okay, if someone threw an allegation at you or at me or at anyone, I can't have any ground for it to stand. Or like once it's thrown, it immediately falls. It doesn't stick because it has nothing to grab onto. Not even a text out of context or like anything. Like it has nothing to hold on to or have level ground to stand on. You know what I mean? Even in like a committed relationship. If someone threw an allegation, oh, I saw you and so-and-so making out da-da, it has no ground to stand on because we don't even put ourselves in that position. So that's like kind of how I picture above reproach of like there's just no way, like, even if someone said something or made an allegation, there's no way that it could stand because I live so above reproach, you know. Do you have anything to kind of like add to that or your tip on it?

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, something that came to my mind as you're explaining that and using that illustration of the sticky guy.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Yeah. Don't expect character references to be what bails you out. What I mean by that is you can't say, oh, that's Brody. He would never do that. Because we've all had that busted with people we had confidence in.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

100%.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

So you've got to be the one that gives no grounds.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

You've got to be able to say, no, I didn't. I didn't do that. There is absolutely, I did not do that. There's no evidence that I did that. There's no evidence because I didn't do it. And I've and and like you've got to live a life that is defendable.

SPEAKER_05 48:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

And um, and where people have no if they make those accusations, they're not, they're not gonna stick. And it's not because like if somebody came along, if if a girl came along and made an accusation and said, I came to Snowbird, um, Brody treated me inappropriately. It would be good that you and the girls we've talked about in this episode would say, I just that's not his character.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

That would that would be good. Right. But there are people listening that are gonna go, oh, how many times have we heard this? We didn't see it coming. The guy at Canacook.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yeah, I was thinking that.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah, that that is in prison for molesting, you know, so many kids, everyone there was like, No way. There's no way this guy did this. Initially, when the accusation accusations came out, people were like, There's no way.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

I would say that is more common than people being like, oh, saw it coming from a mile away. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

That's exactly right. Yeah. So if the girl makes that accusation against me, I want it to be that that I am so above reproach that she's like, I'm like, I can't make that accusation. There's no way I can make that believable.

SPEAKER_06 49:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

There's no evidence, there's no grounds, he's not done anything that that I could, you know, twist. I think that's important. So living above reproach so that you nothing's you're not sticky.

SPEAKER_05 50:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Um and then uh something back to what you just said. If somebody, if if it's not surprising that somebody does that, then that should have been addressed earlier. Yep. Which goes back to something we talked about yesterday with this recent development, this guy that's had this moral failure, you start to hear and

Emotional Affairs And Digital Guardrails

SPEAKER_01 50:30

see people say, I had a feeling about this guy. Right. Now, sometimes that's not founded. Right. Sometimes people just start talking, but this was people I trust, you included. You had had a strange interaction. A few women at Snowbird had a strange interaction, and so I'm like, okay, that the people in his circle might should have seen this. There might not have been enough parameters or like safeguards. I don't know. Um, so that I I bring that up to say if you see something in someone else that's not above reproach, like back to the guy that called me and said, Hey, you butt dialed me, you're talking to Did I talk about this on this episode? I think I talked about it in the last episode. The yeah, I think it was in the last episode where I talked about um I was interacting with uh a female at camp, but there were other people around, but this person thought I was alone with this person in a like a more secluded, yeah. And uh, and so he reached out to me. If you suspect, you see your brother or sister, I talked about this in the last episode. Uh I think I read from James 5 and I read from Galatians 6. You see someone that's headed in a direction, you need to intervene because you might turn that person.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

You might snap them out of it, yeah. And I've got I've I've told people before, hey man, you're on a slippery slope in this relationship. You're headed for um adultery and then they didn't heed it, and that's where they ended up, you know? Or they were already there, and that's why you were seeing that and sensing that.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Um Yeah, and I'd rather a hundred times have that moment where somebody maybe calls me out and I have to swallow my pride in that area and say, Okay, yeah, maybe I wasn't in the best scenario, or like, man, he kind of called me out, and that's not what was happening. And at first I want to get defensive, but I'd way rather swallow my pride then than when my actions come to fruition and I keep going down that slope and I have to own up to my wife, my kid, like you know, my husband in my in my instance. But yeah, yeah. Um, I also kind of want to talk about and this applies to everyone, but specifically pastors, deacons, elders, leaders scripture is so clear on multiple levels. We are just held to a different standard, we are called to a different thing. Um, and so like I said, I think this we said at the beginning, I don't know why you wouldn't want to just follow suit and you know, if your pastor is acting this way, why wouldn't you want to, you know, put that boundary up? But I kind of want to talk about that. I think you said James 3 talks about it. Yeah, talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Yes, yeah. And so I think Chris said this before we started filming. You can always make an excuse. You can always say, Well, she needed discipleship, or my brother at the church, he has women over, like whatever. I'm trying to think of an example, but it's so clear that if you're a pastor, elder, deacon, teacher, whatever, you are point blank held to a higher standard.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Therefore, like we said, there should be no sticky situation. There should be no ground to stand on. You need to, you will be held to a high standard and you need to live to that and feel the pressure of that. Like even when I teach to the girls at Pierre and Holy or teach to the element girls during the summer, I constantly am going back and forth of like feeling the weight of like, man, this is a heavy responsibility. Not only the things that I'm saying to these people, but the way that I live, especially with element girls. I'm with them day in and day out. So if I make a joke or if I mess up in some way, I need to be quick to like openly repent or apologize. And you kind of said having that discretion is like really big. So it's like, you need to live your life in a way that you know I am being held to a higher standard and I will be judged for this, you know? And I think that's something I appreciate that you do is you have, I don't know if we were recording when you said this, but you hold two things, intentionality and discretion. You want to be intentional, but also have discretion. Meaning, there's been, I can think of two times where maybe we're joking around or a joke was said, and you'll text me maybe hours later and say, or give me a phone call and just say, hey, I don't know if you took the joke that way. I just want to clear the air and say, like, hey, I didn't mean it that way, which I appreciate. One, I never take it weirdly, you know, but I appreciate your quick quickly, your swiftness to apologize or just clear the air. And I think that I know from my life, the most like times that I've someone has gained my trust or my respect is if they are a person in leadership, maybe they say a joke or get cocky or prideful or whatever, and they're very quick to come to me and apologize and like repent before the Lord. And just I love that picture. I think it shows humbleness and I just think that's great. So I think that's a good thing to also keep in mind of like having discretion and being quick to apologize or clear things up if you need to. And like we said, that almost just goes back to pride as well of being like, ah, they didn't take that way, or like whatever. Um, but if you have anything to add about that.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up because we did talk about that before we were on air, I think. And yeah, those are the two things that the two words that guide this area of my life are intentionality and discernment. I'm gonna be very, I'm gonna be precise and intentional with my words and interactions so that they can't be misinterpreted. And I'm gonna, um, and I need to practice discernment. The scripture says the spiritual man is discerned. I need to practice discernment, meaning I need to think about, I need to read the room, read the emotion of the person I'm talking to, see the vulnerability. As a pastor, you have the ability God gifts you as a pastor or a counselor to see this is a fragile person or this is a vulnerable person, or this person's in a compromised state of being right now. And I think a lot of guys who end up in uh sexual, sexually inappropriate relationships with women, they get that woman in a compromising moment and then they capitalize on that. And that's that's that might be another conversation where we're talking about more predatory behavior by guys who use intentionally, they haven't gone on a slippery slope, they're using the platform. The scripture speaks of this. Yep. Men that use the the platform of pastor, overseer, leader to to manipulate women. That's a that that the scripture actually speaks of that. So intentionality and discernment are the two things that have to drive my actions. I wanna I want to give a um say one thing that I think gives clarity to that idea of like being um being willing to repent or ask for forgiveness. Most leaders struggle with that, and I I've always tried to be very quick to do that because I think it sh it it shows people that you really desire to lead and serve at the same time. But also the Lord responds to our humility and it requires humility to do that. But the opposite of pride, okay, this is very important. We said all this starts with pride. The opposite of pride is not humility, the opposite of pride is fear. Fear of the Lord is the opposite of pride, right? A fear of the Lord produces humility.

SPEAKER_05 58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

A humble person, show me a humble person and I'll show you a person that fears the Lord.

SPEAKER_05 58:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

So the opposite of pride is fear. So I want to live my life with two really strong emotions constantly in front of me. A fear of the Lord and a hatred of sin. A fear of the Lord and a hatred of sin. If I fear the Lord and I hate my sin, then I'll be self-aware enough to walk in humility, not in pride.

SPEAKER_05 58:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

And so if I hate the sin that that dwells within me, that makes me capable of infidelity, adultery, manipulation, control, um, being domineering. If I hate that sin, I hate it, I want to kill it, and then I fear the Lord, then I'm gonna I'm gonna be fine. Yeah. I'm gonna be fine. When people quit when people quit fearing the Lord and they quit hating their sin, that's where they end up where my dad was at. Yeah, that dude didn't fear the Lord. Yeah. And he didn't hate his sin.

SPEAKER_05 59:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

And that's the dude that this recently happened to that we're talking about. And he didn't fear the Lord and he didn't hate his sin. I used to have a Bible that I lost in the fire, but it had the whole inside cover of that Bible, I had written names of every man that had fallen in ministry since I had since I was keeping tabs.

SPEAKER_05 59:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

And it was sad how long that list was. In every one of those situations, they lost to fear of the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 59:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Um, and I think that that's important.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

Yeah, I think that too. I don't want you guys to listen to this episode and think we're doomed or like this is depressing. It is. It's I mean, it's sad and you grieve it, but also you put that list in your notebook, not to read it and be like, oh

Count The Cost Before You Fall

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

man, this really sucks, but to reignite that like fear of sin in you. Like, man, these men were not immune to it, neither am I. And not like, man, it's it's gonna happen eventually. No, like you put that as a reminder to hate sin and fear the Lord. And so I don't want people to listen to this and just be like, well, you know, like it should invoke that feeling, but also that's not why we're doing this. You know, yeah, it's not hopeless.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

You don't need to feel doomed or hopeless. You need to go, okay, I'm capable of anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

I could fall, I could do this, I could do that, things that I wouldn't imagine I would be guilty of doing, I could do. So I need to put the right parameters and safeguards up. And then know this for every one of those people that fail, for every dude that falls, there's a thousand faithful dudes that finish strong. So just finish your race. Yeah. And if in your race you crash and you fall on your face and you make you make a mistake or there's been moral failure in your background, man, get the next episode is about David's response in Psalm 51. Next week's episode, we're gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

What does it look like if you're you're listening to this and you're going, I already screwed up.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

I was already unfaithful to my wife. I talked to a guy this past week about my the episode about my dad, and he said, Man, he said, I've been unfaithful so many times, but now he's walking with the Lord, and his and his marriage is healing and healthy and growing. And he said, Man, I there was a stretch early in my marriage. They got married right out of high school, and then in his 20s, he was working in a very secular, rough job. And he's like, Man, go to bars, hook up with girls. Like, um, another guy I talked to that was in the military, he was in special operations in the military, and he's like, I we would deploy. He was deployed like five out of eight years of his early marriage. He's like, Man, I I was unfaithful to my wife. Those dudes now are faithful to their wives. Yeah, they're leading their homes well. Like, yeah, you can you can come back from this and the Lord's grace is sufficient. Now, it if you're a pastor, you may be disqualified from ministry for good.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:03

Right. But that doesn't mean it's justified.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

It's justified and biblical. Yeah. Doesn't mean you're you can't have fruitful, productive investment in other people's lives. Um, but yeah, so we'll I I do want to just encourage folks that um my goal is to finish well. My goal is to finish well. I'm I'm and I believe that I'm going to. Like if I didn't believe I could do that with the power of the Holy Spirit, with the faithfulness of the Lord in my life, I would be hopeless. Yeah. I believe, I tell Lil all the time, I was like, recently said to her, Hey, I've been faithful to you. We've been married 32 years this year. And I just recently said to her, hey, I have never touched another woman. I've never had an affair. I've been faithful to you. I just want I want you to know that. Yeah. And she's like, I know. Like, no, no, no. I want I need to say this.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Because it can be done. And but I but then in that same vein, I go, we need to go to lunch Friday. We need to go hiking next Monday. Yeah. We need to do things together because we need to continually safeguard our relationship. Because as much as I've been faithful for 32 years, I could fall in year 33. So you gotta be aware of your your abil your um inability to do it in your own strength, but you gotta be aware of the Lord's ability to do it through you if you submit to him. Fear the Lord, hate your sin. Fear the Lord, hate your sin. Be intentional, be discerning.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

And you'll be fine. And you'll be one of the people that's numbered it with the faithful. That when it's all said and done, man, I was faithful. You can and you can finish your race strong. You really can. That's why we're I I don't just say, put your hand on the plow because it sounds good. It's biblical.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

And it's Jesus that said it. You can put your hand on the plow, don't look back, fix your eyes on Jesus, and and you can live well. You can live faithfully.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Um, and so before we wrap up, talking about little, one thing that uh I think I mentioned this to you when we were kind of pregaming a couple days ago. We're talking about this episode and while it was time to do it. There have been in my marriage, I can remember three times that little came to me and warned me about a woman, a specific woman by name, that I was like, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Oblivious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

Yeah, no clue.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:20

And little's not jealous or like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

Not at all. Like she's she's real comfortable with uh and confident in our in our relationship. And so she's not like controlling or jealous. She doesn't little ain't got she literally, there's times where I'm like, you know, a little bit jealous. That girl was being flirtatious with me, you know, where I'm like, I feel like that girl just You're looking at little like that waitress. She called me baby and honey and put her hand on my shoulder right in front of you. Is that okay? You know, and little's like, but there have been three times where she warned me, and I've always wondered. Okay, a couple things. One, I reacted. Yep, you got it. Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

Which also I think goes back to the pride thing. You weren't like, you're crazy. No, she wasn't. It's just like, okay, I respect that and I respect you, and I'll back off.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

Even though I don't think I was doing anything, you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Well, and and uh man, two of them ended up being home wreckers.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

And Little called it out before it happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

Yes. She's like, hey, I got a weird feeling about this. The way she looks at you, the way she interacts with you. And so I just I want you to know that I don't think it's a healthy thing. And so for me, I'm like, okay, I never talked like I I became almost probably rude to those people. I didn't become rude intentionally, right? I just like create a distance where there had been some interaction. And um Ended up being Yeah. Those women ended up having affairs with married men. The third one, the third situation, um, I think was probably more like I don't think that woman ever did anything like that, but I think the Lord was probably speaking to Little because maybe one we were on a course where maybe something inappropriate was gonna happen. I don't again, I had no feelings like that. But maybe and it could have been that I was clueless, but that woman was developing an attraction or something like that. I don't know, I don't know. But that one, the one that that I, as far as I know, that woman didn't become like didn't end up in adultery or anything. But I just little was like, hey, she looks at you a certain way, and little even said with that one, this one, this one did make me mad, and I had to swallow my pride. She said, She looks at you a certain way, and I've seen you look at her in a way that makes me uncomfortable. I was like, huh?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

Because I did not think I was.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:00

I was like, what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

I'm like, I don't know, man. A woman's intuition, and you add the Holy Spirit to that, you trust it. So I I close with that story to say have a strong enough, healthy enough marriage. Invest enough into your marriage that you can trust your spouse. That's good. But then as a spouse, don't be so jealous that you're that you do it so much that your spouse doesn't take it seriously. Yeah. 32 years of marriage, three times she's done it. So I took it serious. And I think the Lord, the Lord was very faithful

Standards For Leaders And Quick Repentance

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

in the in that in each of those situations.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:32

So and this is something that I would like to add to. Like right now, we're talking a lot about marriage, and obviously that's so important. But like we were kind of talking about earlier, patterns and habits are formed. And so for me, I'm not married. You know, like I I'm not in uh 32 years of marriage. So it's like even now, how can I listen to this and hear these things and apply it to my life? Well, it's like I feel like pretty simple. Like, just don't put yourself in compromising situations even now. It's like my intern, Josiah, is a guy, you know, and it's like I'm not like meeting up with him secretly or like, you know what I mean? Even so, like we're good friends and we're able to joke and laugh and goof off, but it's like still recognizing, okay, I'm still not above this. Like, you know, like and how I act now will also hopefully if I'm putting patterns and habits in and keeping those things ahead of me, then it will continue to build and build and build when I am married. You know what I mean? And so I don't want younger people to just listen to this and kind of check out and be like, well, it doesn't apply to me. No, it does.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:36

It does.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:36

You have a really cool opportunity actually now to put these things into practice. So by the time you do get married, it is a pattern already formed and a habit.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Um Yeah, and and also to younger people, you can do this, and there may be times where you feel like I got a text the other day when this announcement went out on Facebook, I must have gone out on Facebook about this guy that we're talking about that just had moral failure. And I had someone reach out to me, and she's kind of deconstructed a little bit, and she just was ranting about, see, this just keeps happening. And she just kind of went on a rant. And I was like, hey, but you know what? The Lord is faithful.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

And this is very personal to me. And what you're saying is very personal to me, and I take issue with it. Because not everybody is doing this. And there are those that are faithful, and I want I want to look at those and I want to be one of those and I want to look to those people that are faithful and and learn from them and be encouraged by that.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

All right, anything else? You think we covered it?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

Yeah, I think that was it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

Let us know what y'all think.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Message JB or make a you know, leave a comment or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

Oh, I was gonna mention in the last or I guess a few episodes ago, the one about your dad, you talked about little with the everything, every what is it, single morning things?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

Oh, one thing mornings.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

One thing mornings. Somebody left a comment and said we need to make t-shirts with that on it. One thing mornings. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I meant to say that earlier.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

That's cool. Yeah, we're recording this on a Friday morning, and when I left the house, so Friday mornings, we our day kind of we don't meet as a whole staff, so everybody just kind of goes to departments. And we weren't meeting until 8 30. And so this morning I said, Little, I'll take the kids to school. She takes the kids to school every morning. So I'll take kids to school, and so I made her an espresso. She had a little bit of a headache. I was like, You need some, you need a child of espresso. So I made her a little mini Americano and and uh she got piled up on the couch there and wrapped up in an Afghan. And I was like, You just go ahead and start your morning now. So I went and took the kids to school, and then I had to run back to the house to get something before I came here, and there she was sat. She was right there, just you know, squeezed up on that couch with the with the word open, and then it's like uh it was like a working, living reminder of what we just talked about right there. Um pretty cool. Uh one thing before we before we go uh offline here, um we we're gonna have a YouTube channel soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:07

Yes, so it's actually already up.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Um we're slowly posting all of our old, we're kind of like backloading all of our old episodes that we have filmed. Um, but it's just on YouTube. It's linked to the Snowbird account. So you can obviously just look up No Sanity Required, but it's also linked to the Snowbird account. So if you're already subscribed to Snowbird, just go on their account and find No Sanity and subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

Go subscribe to the No Sanity Required YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

And do we have Instagram yet?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

Uh we do have an account we haven't started posting yet. Okay, soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

Soon will be No Sanity Required Instagram. Yeah, and you'll be able to follow us there.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Yeah. Hopefully you guys can watch it. Just the other day, I was telling him Austin put up the video on our big TV in the media office, and I was like, whoa, like I know I edit this, but this is official. Like it was just cool seeing it on the big screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

So considering how this thing started six years ago, like at my house with the podcaster, just kind of me been over it, hungered over it, just talking. Yeah. So, little known fact, I recorded the first ever six episodes for NSR and then deleted all six of them. They were so bad. Started over. So we were gonna drop it, we're gonna start, and I was gonna, we were gonna have a bank of like 10 episodes because early on we did two a week. And which we do sometimes now. We're we're increasing the frequency, but we were doing two a week, and uh so like let's get five weeks worth, and then it'll give us a head start. So I did them all. I went back and listened to them. I was like, I sound, I sound like, hey, we're gonna try to put everybody to sleep. We'll get everybody to fall asleep here. Nobody needs to be awake. I'm gonna put you. It was like real low, quiet, like yeah, it was like no personality. Because I was I never talked into I'm talking into a microphone looking at the wall at my house, you know? Yeah. And so it was, it was I'm an eye contact talker. Yeah. So when I'm teaching and communicating, and and it might be a thousand people in the room, and I'm trying to make eye contact with everybody. So it was pretty funny. So we've come a long way.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:10

Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:11

We're we're uh I think we're here to stay, and I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

So yeah, I'll also link the YouTube. I don't know why I didn't say that, but it'll be linked.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:19

Perfect. Yeah, can't wait. Yep. All right, see y'all next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swoutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.