No Sanity Required
No Sanity Required is a weekly podcast hosted by Brody Holloway and Snowbird Outfitters. Each week, we engage culture and personal stories with a Gospel-driven perspective. Our mission is to equip the Church to pierce the darkness with the light of Christ by sharing the vision, ideas, and passions God has used to carry us through 26 years of student ministry. Find more content at swoutfitters.com.
No Sanity Required
What Does the Bible Actually Say About End Times | Tailgate Theology
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End times talk often sparks fear, arguments, or wild speculation, but it doesn’t have to.
This episode offers a calm, Bible-centered conversation about the end times without hype or endless debates. Brody and JB break down the major Christian views: premillennial, amillennial, and postmillennial. They explain key ideas like the rapture, tribulation, and the millennium, and look at passages like 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 24, and Revelation 20.
They also share how believers should think about Israel and the church. Above all, they keep coming back to what Scripture emphasizes most: endurance, faithfulness, and the mission of the gospel.
Revelation 20
Matthew 24
1 Thessalonians 4
Eternity in Their Hearts by Don Richardson
More Than Conquerors by William Hendriksen
Defending Penal Substitutionary Atonement Episode
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Click here to get our Colossians Bible study.
Welcome And Topic Setup
SPEAKER_02Hey everybody, welcome back to this week's episode of No Sanity Required. We are just coming off of our staff orientation this past weekend. So that was awesome. We got to meet everyone that will be working with us this summer. So that was super fun. But this episode, we are going to be talking about eschatology or in times. So me and Brody, this is kind of a last minute thing. We just kind of started talking this morning. And then we're like, wait, we should just do a podcast episode. So it's kind of last minute. We're just kind of throwing together a bunch of thoughts. We'll probably talk about this later on in the episode, but this is not a debate. This is us just kind of talking about all of it. You know, I still very much am learning and growing. Like I don't even really stand on, I don't know where I stand, you know. So this is just gonna be a conversation about end times and eschatology and different theories and stuff like that. Uh, but I hope you guys enjoy. We were talking earlier that I feel like this is a topic that's either not talked about at all or it's drilled and like you have to make a stand and this, that, and the other. So we're just gonna be talking about it. I hope you guys uh learned some stuff and this is helpful for you guys, or it just points you to scripture and points you to know more about Christ and what scripture says. Uh, but yeah, as you guys know, I'm back. I did a little voiceover for last week's episode, but I just want to emphasize again how grateful I am for your prayers at Be Strong. I met a lot of the guys and they were like, we've been praying for you and your adventure. I can't really talk about it yet a ton. So it might be a few weeks or I don't know, maybe a few months until I can talk about it. But we will be doing a podcast episode about it because it was really cool. All I can say is it's like a reality challenge video of some sorts. Um, but I'm really excited to talk about it. And yeah, it was a blast. All that being said, welcome to this week's episode of No Sanity Required.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.
Why Eschatology Feels So Intense
SPEAKER_03If you hold to, we're gonna we're gonna be talking about three, really four different views of the end times, how how everything's gonna wind up in history, you know, when Jesus is gonna return and what that's gonna look like. So we're gonna look at several views. If we don't get your view exactly right, here's what I would say: give us some grace. I don't know what everybody believes about each one of these. I don't even know what I believe about each one of these. Um but even within the different views, people disagree. So if you are one of the views we'll talk about today is the all millennial view. Within all millennialism, people disagree on certain aspects of all millennialism. So you could have multiple all millennialists sitting at a table and then they might disagree about different aspects of their system of end times belief. So give us some grace. We're not trying to tell you this is emphatically what a pre-tribulation, premillennialist view is, or this is exactly what a post-mill believes. We're just gonna, this is just a discussion overview. A lot of what's driving this is um just the the amount of discussion right now in the in geopolitical conversation about Israel, what is our responsibility to Israel, what's the church's relationship to Israel. Um so we're gonna get into some of that, what what the different views might would hold to about the relationship of Israel to the church. Um and I I'm excited about this. I've been wanting to do this for a while. I was gonna have, we were gonna film this last week. It was gonna be like me and part of our teaching team, but it was hard to get everybody to the table at once, and then I thought, you know what, it'll it might get way too wordy. I think this will be way more enjoyable for most people, and then maybe we'll do a follow-up where we bring in a guy or two that hold to some of these different views and let them give a little more clarifying thought on their view specifically. So I will tell you on the front end, um, I don't I don't line up strongly with any of any of these views, but I lean there's two of these views that I'm torn between that both have a lot of what I think a lot of points that make sense, and we'll talk about that.
Tribulation Trail And Early Fears
SPEAKER_02So yeah. I want to start by sharing my Southern Baptist experience. So I grew up in the South, I'm from Georgia at a Baptist church, but I wouldn't say it's like super Southern Baptist, they they're not crazy. I love those. Yeah, good church.
SPEAKER_03A lot of Southern Baptist churches are good. Yes, it's just a lot of them are crazy.
SPEAKER_02But I feel like sometimes when I say Southern Baptist, people are like, oh, I'm like, no.
SPEAKER_03Well, people get confused. I will say this a lot of people confuse Southern Baptist with fundamentalist independent Baptists. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's an important distinction.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but around Halloween time, around October, it's common for people to have like trail tribulation trail is what the one that I went to. So it's kind of like during like spooky time, almost like a Halloween trail, like walkthrough, but it's walking through like the end times, like basically the book of Revelation. And so that was my first experience or first, like, you know, Revelation is talked about in the church, but when I went to this tribulation trail, I was in middle school. So it had never I never visualized it, I never understood it until I went to this tribulation trail. And it was crazy, you guys. I brought some of my friends.
SPEAKER_03Did it first off, did it freak them out?
SPEAKER_02It freaked my friends out badly because I thought it was gonna be like a spooky Halloween trail. No, it's like we walk in, there's a man wearing like a big cloak, like basically like the Grim Reaper. There's a bus that's crashed, so it's like depicting the rapture, and there's kids screaming, crying. There's a kid with like a pencil coming out of his head because he crashed the bus and like it's crazy. And then you like walk through the whole trail, and then there's like depicting like people starving outside of a grocery store because they didn't get the mark of the beast, and then there's like Christians getting persecuted. It's like crazy. So all my friends were literally freaked out. I also was a little freaked out, but I also was just like, What did I just witness? Like, what is this? And I remember going home to my dad and being like, Dad, what does all of this mean? Like, I don't even know. And my dad made a joke and was like, Some people are pre-male, some people are post-male, I'm pan male. And I was like, Oh, okay, like what does that mean? What does that mean? He said, It'll all pan out in the end. And I was like, Okay, what do I make of all of this? So that's kind of like the first time I it kind of got my gears going on all of this. And for a long time, that is like what really formed my beliefs. And it hasn't been until like recently that I've like actually, you know, sat down and like tried to interpret this. But I'm kind of in the camp of we were talking about this earlier. Like it will all pan out. Like I'm almost too much relaxed about it. Like we were talking about in Matthew 24, where it says like no one will know the day or the time. And sometimes I I sit too comfortably in that. I'm like, I don't know, I don't want to know. It'll all pan out, it'll all work out. But that's kind of a funny story of like the first time I ever thought of this. But do you have any?
Defining The Rapture From Scripture
SPEAKER_03Well, it's yeah, I love it because I've been wanting to do this episode. Um, I mean, I've been wanting to do this episode for probably probably four or five months, but I haven't put it on the list. It's not on our list. And this morning I was like, I think I we knew we were gonna record today. We've got this massive list and several things we want to work through and a few interviews we want to do. And I was like, man, I think I'm just gonna see if JB would want to do this. And so then I when I mentioned it to you at our eight o'clock meeting this morning, JB got real excited, and then I got more excited, and we just started talking. Yeah, so this is very uh this is pretty spur of the moment. Um, but I've been thinking about it a lot lately and have and have been studying it and um just trying to get different perspectives. Um I want to I do want to define some things. I want to define what we mean when we say rapture. Um when we're talking about the rapture, um the rapture is uh it's it's a term that refers to the moment where Christ comes and calls Christians up to meet him in the air. That comes from uh I think 1 Thessalonians 4. It's talked about in both Thessalonian letters. The uh end times things are talked about in both Thessalonian letters. If there are um New Testament writings that really have an emphasis on the return of Christ, it's both the letters to the Thessalonians. And it has to do with that something they were really wrestling with. They had faced great persecution, and they were like, okay, some of our people are not gonna see Jesus come back. They died. What's gonna happen to them? You know, that think if you didn't have the Bible as we have it, and you just know Jesus left and he said, I'm gonna return, and so go proclaim the gospel to the nations, and I'm gonna come back and get everybody. They're thinking this is gonna happen in my lifetime. Well, then they start getting killed. And it's like, okay, this is really important in this discussion. The church was getting terribly persecuted, and it felt like as fast as people are converting to Christianity, people are dying for being Christians. And so Paul writes to the Thessalonians and he tells them a few things. He says, Look, um, some of you are gonna die before the return of Christ. But that's okay because you're not dying and missing out. You're actually gonna be called up first. Yeah. So the dead in Christ will be raised first when Christ returns. So the rapture is the teaching that Christ is gonna return. Those that have died in Christ are gonna be raised to meet Jesus in the air, and then those that are still alive at that time will go with them. And all of the views that we're gonna talk about today believe in a rapture. There's just different ideas about what that looks like and when that occurs. And one of the views, the pre-tribulational, premillennial, or dispensational view, teaches a secret rapture of the church, and that seven years later Jesus will return for all believers.
SPEAKER_02And that's what you see a lot sometimes in movies or like I said, that like Trail of Tribulation, where it's like the clothes are left, you know, the bus has been crashed, like people just go up. And I remember not too long after I went to that trail of tribulation, I got home from school one day, and normally my dad would be home, and when my sisters would be home, I remember getting home from school, and my dad wasn't home, but his car was in the the driveway and my sister wasn't home. Yeah, and I literally was like, Oh, it happened, like the rapture happened. I'm like calling out to them, like, dad, mom, like you know, but then they just were like on a walk or something, and I was like, oh, phew, okay.
SPEAKER_03Uh that's funny that that's that's actually very funny to me because I that was my whole childhood.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Why We Reject Secret Rapture
SPEAKER_03I want to I want I do want to say this on the front end. I do not believe, and I don't think anybody in tea on the teaching team here or in leadership at Snowbird believes in a pre-tribulational rapture, a secret rapture. Right. So a lot of our listeners probably still believe in or hold to the idea that Jesus is gonna come rapture like a secret rapture of the church, and then tribulation's gonna come for seven years. I don't believe that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't believe that's biblical.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, why don't you?
SPEAKER_03Because of the two um okay, so there's a couple of reasons. Um let me let me first define where that view comes from. Yeah. Again, give us grace, y'all. We're not gonna, if we misrepresent your view, that this is very there's a lot of room in within each of these views. Okay, so I also would go back to my childhood. I'll tell you why I don't believe it, but first let me tell you a similar story. When I was in middle school, my parents sent me to a Christian school. Um, I just went for a couple years. Uh I'd been in public school all the way through uh into middle school, and then in part way through middle school, I went for a couple years to a Christian school. And it was a it was a strict, independent, fundamental Baptist, King James version only. Um so, like a lot of labels. And that school, that camp teaches uh hardline pre-tribulational rapture rapture. And so there was a series of movies that came out in the 1970s called A Thief in the Night. And so we watched those movies. It freaked me out, man. It just freaked me out. Um and so I remember a Bible teacher telling us that Jesus would return before April the 10th, 1988.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_03He didn't say he was gonna return on that day, he said he would return before that. And the reason he said was okay, we talk, we'll talk about, we'll get into the all of it discourse, but Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus explains sort of the sign of the times of his return. But he also gives some other prophetic references to things that I believe have already taken place during the time of the Roman Empire. And in the middle of that passage, or like right at the beginning of that passage, Jesus is walking with his disciples, and they ask him, When are we gonna see these things come to fruition? And he says, Before this generation passes, these things will take place. When he says that, he's referring to an olive tree or a fig tree, a fig tree bearing fruit. Okay, and he's making an analogy that when when this fig tree bears fruit, before that generation passes, I will return. So this Bible teacher, when I was in eighth, seventh, eighth, eighth grade, eighth grade, I think it was, when I was at this little Christian school, he said that's a reference to the nation of Israel bearing fruit again. Okay. So he said, Jesus is speaking to uh Jews under Roman rule. They've lost their autonomy as a nation. They're enslaved by the Romans. And he said, Jesus is saying, I'm gonna restore Israel. Now, this is a very important piece to the pre-tribulation premillennial view. This is important to two different premillennial views. We'll define all these terms. So millennial is a reference to a thousand-year reign.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that is talked about only once, right? In Revelation, Revelation 2020.
SPEAKER_03It's the only time it's talked about. Yeah. In a book that is full of symbolic numbers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Here's a number that most people will say, oh, but that one's not symbolic, it's literal.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So it's kind of that's where a lot of the debate lies. But when Jesus is speaking to these disciples, he says, um, he says, uh the this tree is gonna bear fruit again. And a lot of people say he's talking about Israel as a nation. And he says, before this generation passes, I'm gonna return. So do you know what happened on April 10th, 1948? No. Israel became a nation for the first time since the Assyrian invasion in seven something BC. So 722-ish BC, the Assyrian Empire invades Israel and they destroy their autonomy as a nation. So 700 years to the time of Christ, 1948 years to the post-World War II era, Israel became a nation for the first time. So they became what we call a nation state. That means they became, they all the Jews that have been scattered throughout the world after World War II said, we're never gonna let this happen again. We're not gonna let uh a domineering world power like Hitler try to eradicate our people. What had happened is a lot of Jews who weren't living in Israel that had been spread out 2,000 years prior, 3,000 years prior, and had descended in these other nations, you had Polish Jews, Spanish Jews, British Jews, Russian Jews. Um, these people were persecuted because of what was going on. So they said, let they all sort of flooded back into Israel. Now, there had been 50 years prior to that, they had started moving back into what is modern day Israel or Palestine. But in 1948, they became an established nation. Okay. This Bible teacher, when I was in middle school, said, Jesus said, when that happens, so he associated the bearing of fruit with Israel becoming a nation again. When that happens, this generation will not pass until I return. A generation, most um anthropologists and sociologists will will uh identify a generation as 40 years. So he was saying 40 years from the time Israel became a nation, that in that generation Jesus was going to return in this pre-rapture, pre-tribulational return. So that's where that thinking comes from. Does that make sense? Yeah. That answers that question. So that's where that teaching comes from. Okay. I believe in what a lot of people believe, historic, I think some historic premillennialists and some all millennialists, I mean, all a millennialists and all postmillennial millennialists believe when Jesus is speaking to those disciples, what he's saying is this generation that I'm talking to right now will not pass. In your lifetime, you're gonna see these things. And he then begins to describe the fall of Jerusalem. Because what was the one verse we said?
SPEAKER_02Not one uh says right here, he's talking about the temple. Truly I say to you, there will there will not be left here one stone upon another that you will not that will not be thrown down.
SPEAKER_03And that happened.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Where Dispensational Teaching Came From
SPEAKER_03In 70 AD. So I believe what I would hold to is a view that's called partial preterism. Preter preterism is a reference to the past. A partial preterist believes that part of what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 occurred in the first in by 70 AD. So in the first generation of the church. But that also in that passage, he's referring to some things that are yet to occur. And so I believe that there are some things that still have to happen. Okay. So um to then to kind of sum up the the question you asked, where's that come from? Why do people believe that? It goes back to this teaching that was made popular in the 19th in the um 19th century. So people didn't teach a pre-tribulational rapture, they didn't teach what's called dispensational pre-tribulation, premillennialism until the 1900s. And there were a few guys that really made this a popular teaching, a guy named Darby and a guy named Schofield. If you go back before those two guys became really prolific in their teaching, um, and and Schofield is known for, he developed a sort of reference Bible that became like the Bible of evangelical Baptist life, like and and study, um, especially in the independent Baptist world. If you go back to prior to that, what premillennialists believed was a different form of premillennialism called historic premillennialism. And so I let's start by discussing premillennial the premillennial view, and then within that, the two different views. What you and I are referencing, what I was raised on was what was called the pre-tribulational premillennial view. You'll still hear people say, Well, here's what's gonna happen. Jesus is gonna return, and then he's gonna secretly take away Christians, and the next seven years are gonna be marked by tribulation, terrible suffering, and they'll usually break it down and say, it's three and a half years of peace, three and a half years of tribulation. At the end of that seven years, Jesus is gonna return. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. Um, I I think that Jesus is gonna return one time, one time. I think at and here's what historic premillennialists believe. Here's what their timeline would be. Before I say that, to define the word millennialism or millennialists, it goes, will you read that Revelation 20 passage? Let's read that and define what we mean by millennium. Okay, the first six verses.
SPEAKER_02This is Revelation 20, and we're gonna be referencing this a lot. Also, Matthew 24, the all of it discourse, and potentially Mark 13. So if you guys are confused, that's where we're kind of out of. But uh Revelation 20. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain, and he sees the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and threw. Him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20 And The Millennium
SPEAKER_03So you see there you've got this reference repeated, this reference to a thousand years. And it's it's describing a th a one thousand-year reign of Christ, where during that reign, martyrs, those who have been martyred for the faith, will reign with Christ. And so what we want to do is we want to unpack sort of the three different views of what that's referencing. Okay, so the first view is the premillennial view. The premillennial view teaches that Jesus will return and then after he returns, this 1,000 literal 1,000 year kingdom will be established. It's a temporary kingdom that will give way then after that 1,000 years. If you continue studying Revelation 20, Satan is released. He's bound during the thousand years, he's then released, and there's a war, but Jesus ends it with the word of his power. Okay, that view is divided into two camps. Um, and what I'd like to do is sort of give an overview of those two camps and the proponents of each. So we already said the proponents of the the pre-tribulational premillennial view, also known as dispensational premillennialism, is the idea that was really pushed in the late 1800s by Schofield and Darby. Okay. Modern theologians and pastors that we would like to align ourselves with, there are none that believe that. We don't.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's independent Baptists, a lot of uh like Pentecostals. Um, if you're at a church that believes that, I'm not saying that you're it's a bad church. There's really Christ-loving, God-fearing, gospel-centered people that believe this. I just think it's very, it's I think it's erroneous in the point of the pre-tribulational rapture. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So let me give you, here's the if if you can visualize a timeline. They would say the Old Testament prophecies were made about Israel, and the Old Testament prophecies were made about the church, but they're distinct from each other.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
Historic Premillennialism And Tribulation
SPEAKER_03So God had a plan for Israel. He also then had a plan for the Gentile church. Jesus came, fulfilled the gospel, the plan of redemption. Now, after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, there's one plan for the church moving forward and one plan for Israel. The word dispensation has to do, that's a word that refers to periods of time or see like ages of time. And so the dispensational view would break down history into these different dispensations where God is doing a certain prophetic work in the church, but that he's ultimately going to do a work within Israel. So there's a real distinct line drawn between the two. Okay. Um, the the distinctive to this view is that pre-tribulational rapture. They believe that Jesus will come back, he'll secretly take away quietly and secretly, we'll all be gone. And that's where you get the the the movies or the sketches where all of a sudden there's empty cloak, cars are running off the road, crashing, planes are crashing. Planes are crashing because all the Christians are gone. And so, and that's what I mean, that scared me to death as a child. It freaked me out. Well, I don't think that that's gonna happen that way. I don't think that's the way it's gonna happen biblically. I don't think it is. Now, the second form of premillennialism that believes Jesus is gonna return before this literal 1,000-year kingdom is what's called historic premillennialism. This was the view held by a lot of early church fathers. It was held by um quite a few of the the founders of the early church. It was held, I'm pretty sure it was held by like Luther and Calvin, but they didn't talk about it a lot. Um, it was held by Irenaeus, who was like a I believe Irenaeus was a was was like a disciple of the Apostle John. And so a lot of early church fathers held to this premillennial view, but it was it's what's called historic premillennialism. What's different is their timeline goes, prophecies about Jesus coming and bringing the gospel for all people, prophecies about Israel. There's still some distinction between Israel and the church. There's a remnant of Israel that will be preserved and saved, and that revival will occur in, but that in historic premillennialism, there's a belief that um there will be a great two twofold um, there'll be two things that happen in history. A great falling away of Christians, so what we would call great apostasy, and there will be a great tribulation or persecution. So the historic premillennial view says there will be great tribulation, but the church will endure it. They won't, they won't be taken away, they'll endure it. And in that view, um, they take um reference to uh a figure in the book of First Thessalonians and 2nd Thessalonians, there's a figure called the man of lawlessness. They would teach that like like you hear people talk about the false prophet, the beast, and the antichrist. So so there's some sort of a figure that's gonna rise up and lead the nations against Christianity. And what the historic premillennial view will kind of hold to is when that happens, there'll be a great persecution against the church, and a lot of Christians, what you'll have is what we're seeing now deconstruction and false teaching.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, like really confusing theology, woke theology will be an example of what he's talking about, um, the the historic premillennialist. And so they will teach that things will get really bad, but as they get bad, the church will grow. There'll be constant gospel growth. Then Jesus will return. When he returns, he'll take the church, he'll take those believers that have died will go first, and he'll take the church, and then the millennial kingdom begins. Okay. Um, in both of those views, during that 1,000-year reign, Satan is bound. But right now in history, Satan is fully on the loose. And the way that they would support that is they would go to passages like um 1 Peter 5. Is it first Peter 5 8? Satan is the prince and power of the air. Yep. He's a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Uh Ephesians 2. Um, Ephesians, uh, the the armor of God. We wrestle not against principal against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03They would refer to this period of history as being Satan is still really at large.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or like reigning on this earth.
SPEAKER_03That's right. That's right. Yeah. So that's that's premillennialism divided into sort of two viewpoints. Um, historic premillennialists would be John Piper.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
Amillennialism And Satan’s Restraint
SPEAKER_03Um, a lot of people debate this, but I'm pretty sure R. C. Sproul was uh was a um historic premillennialist. Um, a lot of people that we would we would see as like faithful influence in our lives, like they would be historic premillennialists. Jim Hamilton is sort of the the big proponent of it. He's the guy that represented premillennialism in the video An Evening of Eschatology with Doug Wilson represents post-mill, Sam Storms represents Ah-Mill, and Jim Hamilton, who's a professor at Southern Seminary, represents pre-mill. But it's historic premillennialism that he would hold to, not the the uh dispensational premillennialism. So so premillennialists believe the pre we'll just say pre-mill. Quit saying that word. The pre-mill view is Jesus is coming back at that time, then Satan will be bound and there'll be a literal one thousand-year reign of Christ, but then there'll be a subsequent reign of Christ because he'll at the end of that thousand years, Satan will be released, there'll be a war, and Satan will be defeated, hell will be enlarged with those that are cast there into the lake of fire, and then for all of eternity, then the kingdom of Jesus be established. The omillenalist view, the omil view, would teach this. They would say um that when Jesus went to the cross and said, It is finished, and then he went into the grave, Peter says that during that time period he triumphed over Satan and hell and demons, and that he led them into he he brought he he brought a victory and a conquest where he literally declared it over them. And they would say that the 1,000-year kingdom of Revelation 20 is not literal, it's figurative, and it has to do with what's called the church age or the age of the church and its expansion and gospel influence in the world. They would say we're living in the millennial kingdom now, that it's not a literal 1,000 years, yeah. That in the Bible, 1,000 years is a reference to an indefinite long period of history. Okay. Um, and so the a millennial view, several guys in leadership at Snowbird hold this. And a lot of the pastors that come to Snowbird hold this. Um, so you you brought up something when we were offline uh that I thought was good. You said, and I'd always thought this too, that ah mil meant you thought there is no millennium.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It simply means it's not a a literal 1,000-year ring.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I always thought it meant like it's never come, like it's not gonna happen because like, ah, like you said, atheist, you know, like no God. So I thought it meant like no No millennium. Yeah, but it's just saying it's not a good thing. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03Uh I'd like to hear your perspective at this point. What do you think might be some support for um Amil? And then what do you think might be some problems? You think the the th the thing with Satan, yeah, I think is what you gotta wrestle through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think it's it's just so hard because everything can be inter like there's so much room for interpretation when it comes to this passage in Revelation 20. And I think for me, like I I don't know, because I'm more of like a literal, like there are times when I read scripture and in my brain I'm like, that is very black and white. And so it's I think it's hard for me to be like, oh, this is a figurative speech. Like I I think I hold more of like, no, it's an actual a thousand years brain.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But also I don't really get it, like I've heard podcasts and other things where people look into like the Greek words and like this and the translation, and I don't do that, which maybe I should, but like for this, I just take it very literally of like a thousand years. Um, but also that's just my uh my take of it, you know.
SPEAKER_03I don't think you have to look into the Greek stuff. We people have given their lives to establish good translation of scripture in our language. You can trust studying a good translation of the Bible in English, you know. And I think there's a lot of merit to what you're saying. I think one of the so here is a big what I think is a big point of contention that you have to wrestle through if you're gonna hold the Amel view. Why if Satan is currently bound? Yeah, because what the omil view teaches is that when Jesus triumphed over Satan at the grave, at the empty grave, the cross in the empty grave, um why is there so much evil still in the world?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, that's uh another good point.
SPEAKER_03And then why does Paul say we wrestle against principalities and powers?
SPEAKER_02Agreed.
SPEAKER_03So here's what here's what the Amel answer to that is. They would an omel an omil person would say Satan has limited power. He's not bound in the sense that he's um cast into hell or put in prison. He's bound in the sense of think that his power has now been limited or that he's on a big chain or leash. Sure. And so what he cannot do is negate or halt or slow down the advance of the church. So they would say Satan is still running rampant, but he's on a chain. And so anything within his reach, he can do damage. But the advance of the church is outside of his reach. Sure. So they would say Satan's gonna s continue to do damage. Now, again, some omil, there there's even they would debate within their own camp. Some would say, No, no, no, he's bound bound. It's and what they would say is the evil in the world is perpetuated from Satan used to be doing that work, but the hearts and intents of people so evil, so destructive that the work continues to go.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So you see the presence of evil, even though he's bound. Where some Amil um would believe that he's still at work to a degree, but he's limited. Which there's an appeal to me. There's that I can make sense of that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So they would say um a place like so. This is an important distinction. They would say that in the Old Testament, we see Satan rule and reign through government leaders. So a lot of the terminology in Revelation, it's like this symbolism, Revelation 12, like 10, this, you know, ten horns and then one big horn, and this one king and this leader, and this dragon, and this beast, and this, and you've got sort of this picture of these big powerful forces. In the Old Testament, we go back to Daniel's vision in Daniel 7, Daniel saw a vision of four different kingdoms raising up, rising up on the earth. Those kingdoms were really controlled and influenced by the devil. So those kingdoms we know ended up being Babylon, Persia, uh, Greece, and Rome. But those kingdoms were all brought down by one kingdom, and that's the kingdom of the gospel, that's Jesus. And so what the Amel would say is Satan ruled and reigned through kingdoms then. Now he doesn't have that kind of rule and reign.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
Postmillennialism And The Golden Age
SPEAKER_03He still can make an impact, but the gospel is the kingdom that's overcoming all kingdoms. And it makes sense when you think about the most uh hostile places in the world today would be Iran, China, North Korea, and the gospel's flourishing in those places. The harder you squeeze the gospel, then the more it flourishes in those places. So that would be the omil view. They would say it's a symbolic thousand years, it refers to a long period of time, we're living in it now. And they would, but then concerning the end times, they would say at the end of this period that's set by Christ. Again, you read this in Matthew 24, no one knows the day or the hour. Yeah, but at the end of this designated time, then Christ is going to return. And that when he does, it's one return. Paul says to the Thessalonians, the dead in Christ will be called up first, then we'll all go to meet him in the air. And then what the omel would teach, he'll then return to the earth. So we'll go up, meet him, come down to the earth, he'll establish a new earth. Um and then the last the last view is that post-millennial view. Yes. Post-meal, which to me, this one's the hardest stretch. I can historic pre-meal, I said I'll tell you, historic pre-meal, there's a lot that makes sense to me there. Ah mil, there's a lot that makes sense to me. So both of those I can't, I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. Um dispensational pre-meal, the pre-tribulational rapture, the seven years that I just think it's weird that people think the church is not gonna have to suffer.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03Like there's gonna be some persecution, but don't worry, American Christians don't have to go through that or something weird, you know. Like every Christian generation has had to endure terrible tribulation. And so then um, and then there's some references in Revelation to these persecuted Christians. So why do we why would we think that there'll be a point where we avoid persecution?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So um the post-mill view teaches that also the thousand years is figurative, it's not literal, but that in history we're marching towards like what they refer to as like a golden era, a golden age. Yep. And that in that time, the gospel will get stronger and stronger and stronger until the whole earth is filled with gospel influence, and then Jesus will come. So that there's a couple problems with that for me. One is it seems like Jesus is gonna wait for the earth to be perfect before he comes back. That that that's hard for me to get around.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um now your Christian nationalists are gonna mostly be post-mill folks because they believe that America should become a Christian government, and so should every other government that eventually that'll happen. The big proponent of that would be Doug Wilson.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's also what Puritans and the Pep believed and you know, wrote about and yeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh which makes sense why the Puritans left England. You know, they're they're looking for a new land where they can establish a Christian government. And um also it's important maybe it's helpful to note uh millennialism came out of post-millennialism. It made some adjustments. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for me I mentioned this earlier, but I am grateful that I've never really struggled with like like I said, what I read in scripture, I re I take it as black and white. Like I take it for what it is, so I'm grateful for that. Not to say I've never struggled with doubt or anything like that, but I for me, I I'm able to like sit at peace with this, but I also know there's people that can't, like their mind is just gonna run a mile a minute, and like and it's also with this, there is no clear answer. There's nowhere in scripture says this that's right, this is it, but where in scripture does say, like in Matthew 24, it talks about those who persevere till the end, like they are the ones to be saved. So I think my take of all of this, this isn't even like an answer to like what I believe. But my take is like, okay, am I living till the end? Am I persevering till the end? What whatever that persecution looks like. But like I, if I'm enduring to the end, I will be saved. So if I'm living my life in a way that's worthy of the gospel, like that's kind of how I look at it of like, okay, what whatever it is, omil, post-mil, pre-mill, whatever, it's like I want to be there for whatever it is. And you know, like I don't for me, it's easy for me to not get caught up in the weeds of these different theories and thoughts and just live my life. I think it's good, you know, like according to the gospel.
SPEAKER_03But it's really healthy.
SPEAKER_02I know that there's some people that their minds, yeah, they can't. So I'm like grateful that I'm just like I can relax and be like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's I I would like to something you said that um I think is worth pausing and talking about is all my life I've heard people say, like all my life, my whole life, I've I've heard this a thousand times in church. Well, we may not face persecution here, but they'll say something like, One day we might. Well, in the historic premillennial view, there is a great apostasy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where there's a leading of people from within the church to sort of turn against the teaching of Jesus, Orthodox, like like a love for the scripture. And you'll see that you'll see this talked about in scripture where people's hearts grow cold or they abandon the faith or they turn away from the teaching of scripture. And we've always had that. Yeah. And so there's, I think, both in the there's a lot of similarities to the historic premillennial view and the omillennial view. There's some really stark differences, but there's a lot of similarities where in both of those, you see, not just a physical person, like the persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union, where they're being thrown in the gulag, you know, the prison, they're like prison camps and and and and being tortured and executed, or or under Nero, or um in places where Christianity is like terribly, terribly persecuted. Like there is there, it is a real thing that there's an ideological persecution. And we've seen real your generation has seen strong glimpses of this where you were pressured, like if you believed um anything really, really, really um orthodox about what the scripture teaches about sexuality, or you believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes except through Christ, you'd be persecuted. It would idle ideological persecution or like cancel culture persecution. That's a real thing, though. And I believe that's I believe that's in scripture. Yeah. That idea that there'll be a turning away, or that the man of lawlessness will turn the hearts of people. And so what what you're describing, I believe, is what we're seeing take place. And we've always seen it take place. And that's where you know it's I think it's important to point out every single one of these views believes Jesus is going to return, right? And there is going to be an eternal kingdom, and Satan is going to be eternally dealt with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that in that return of Christ, at some Point, depending on how which each of these has sort of a different timeline of history and the future, but somewhere on that timeline, Jesus is gonna judge believers and bring them into his kingdom, and he's gonna and he's gonna reward them accordingly, and he's gonna judge those who have rejected, and he's gonna cast them into eternal punishment. Like all these views believe that. Um, but I do think um it's it's it's helpful if you can look at that Olivet discourse in Matthew 24.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and we when you work through that, you know, we maybe we'll read a little bit of that and and see where, okay, yeah, I think you can point out that actually took place in the first century. And then you can point out, oh, I don't think that's happened yet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So the first part, I already read a little bit of it, so I'm gonna skip past it, but oh, it's talking about the temple being like no stone will be. Yeah. Um, and then uh picking up in verse three, as he sat on the Mount all Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming in the end of the age? Jesus answered them, see that no one leads you astray, for many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray, and you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold, but the one who endures to the end will be saved, and this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
SPEAKER_03So you can't man, as you're reading that, I'm hearing things we've even talked about, like many will fall away. Yeah, there will be persecution, and and uh, and that the gospel's gonna go to the ends of the earth. There's one argument when you talk about I I mentioned earlier that I'm a partial preterist, meaning I believe that part of what Jesus prophesies there was fulfilled in that generation. Not all of it, but part of it. And um when you when you think about the gospel going to the ends of the earth, and then you know, when Jesus descended, I mean ascended, like at his ascension, he said, he gave the great commission and he said, Go to the ends of the earth. Um, as the Roman Empire was the end of the earth, was the end of the Roman Empire, in one sense, the disciples, they did it. Like they got the gospel to the ends of the earth in their lifetime. So you could argue that that was fulfilled like when Jesus said, Go into all the world and make disciples of all men. So teach them to observe all that I've commanded you, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, teach them what everything I've told you, and and I'll be with you to the end of the age. Part of that was fulfilled in the sense that in their generation, literally the whole of the uh Roman Empire received the gospel.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then you go, I read a book one time called The Barbarian Conversion, was written by a non-Christian history professor at York University in England, and he talked about the Christianization, I think is the way he worded it, of Great Britain. And it happened in the fourth century where the first missionaries got into Britannia and the gospel began to spread, and there was this massive move of the gospel. Well, those people thought, yeah, Jesus is coming back any day now, you know. And throughout history, you'll see these times and events where you know in that generation they thought this is it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
Israel And The Church Relationship
SPEAKER_03You know, like think about um when I talked to my grandparents' generation about what did people think of Hitler and World War II, they all thought this is it. What you just read. Yeah. Wars, rumors of wars, great persecution. This is it. You know, and so people's like like there have been uh moves of belief on eschatology that kind of ebbs and flows with the events of history. And so um a lot of times you can you can go back in history and see sort of a a spike in a in a belief system based on what was happening in the world at that time. I do think maybe the last thing we could we could talk about would be the relationship of the church to Israel.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03Because a lot of people have been asking me that lately. Like, what should our responsibility to Israel be?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh have you given that much thought?
SPEAKER_02Kind of. Israel right now is such a hot topic politically, especially with okay, this is actually kind of funny, but when I was gone on this adventure, I didn't have my phone or any contact to the outside world. So I come back, first thing I see on my phone, oh, we bombed Iran. Like I had no idea. Like everyone's like, gas, prices are insane. I'm like, what is going on? Anyways, but so I've kind of looked at it more like through a political lens of like, okay, what's America's connection to Israel? Like, we protect the, like, you know what I mean? But not really in accordance to scripture. I actually did an interview for a girl on SummerStaff. And one of our questions is, you know, what have you been studying in the Bible? And she mentioned, she's like, I've really been doing like a deep dive on Israel and like the position of Israel, the position of the church. Like, and so that actually like encouraged me. I was like, oh dang, I need to like actually look into that. But not really, like, not super well.
SPEAKER_03That's good. The stuff you just said though is all really good. Like you're thinking, I think you're thinking about the things that need to be thought about. I would uh couple things to point out. One, in each of these views that we've talked about in this episode, there's sort of a different view of Israel. So the post-millennial view and the amillennial view hold a pretty different view from what the premillennial views are. So um dispensational premillennialism or pre-tribulation pre-mill would teach that there is a very distinct future for the church and Israel. Yeah. Like they're completely separate. And so what typically what the teaching that comes out of that is they go back to Genesis chapter 12, God says to Abraham, In you all the nations of the earth will be blessed. I'll bless those that bless you, I'll curse those that curse you. That the the pre-trib view would say we gotta really stay strong with Israel because that's where God's blessing lies. I take some issue with that because it gets sort of it gets kind of hard to define what do we mean by Israel? Do we mean people that are Jewish by descent and birth? Because there are those people in New York and in Istanbul and in uh um Leningrad and you know, like um all over the you know, Moscow. Like do we mean ethnic Israel or do we mean national Israel? And then that turns into, we're not gonna get into that today, that turns into a huge debate. Um, but I will say this the Christian has a relationship to the Jew. Um, and that relationship at the very least is that we both are um have ties to Abraham. God said to Abraham in Genesis 12, I'm gonna bless all the nations of the earth through you. Now, he raised up a nation called Israel through Abraham. Within that nation, there will there were 12 tribes. Yeah. One of those tribes was the tribe of Judah. Within the tribe of Judah, there was a family lineage that King David came out of. In the line of David, God raised up a Messiah. And so within Israel, there is a nation that goes down to a tribe, that goes down to a family line, that goes down to a messianic line that's gonna point us to Jesus. That's really cool because it cleans up where Jesus fits into history.
SPEAKER_02You can see the actual lineage, like the line.
SPEAKER_03That's right, the line and then the prophecies that are made. Okay, but then if you go to so what is the what is the the New Testament Christians' relationship to all this? Go to Galatians 3. There's a few verses here. Um Galatians 3, 7. Know then that is that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. It's those of faith. The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preach the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed. So then those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. So Paul's telling the Galatians, hey, the blessing to Abraham is the gospel coming out of Abraham, not a nation called Israel. The big idea is the gospel. And so then at the end of Galatians 3, he says in verse 28, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there's neither slave nor free, there's no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. So now this is where the distinction lies. And so there's a debate about we are the promised seed of Abraham is the church. So now each of these views wrestles with what's the relationship of the church to Israel. Some teach that the church replaces Israel. Some teach that both remain distinct with distinct futures. And then there's some variance in how the two kind of merge together. So what we would teach would be that the church is a grafted son. So Abraham was the father of the nation of Israel, and that that's like the vine. And then we are grafted in as Gentile believers. The church is grafted into the vine. So we're rooted in Christ, but we're tied back to Abraham. And so people that hold to like a really strong dispensational view, or those that hold to historic premillennialism, the historic premill would teach there's a path forward for Israel, there's a path forward for the church. We should bless Israel because it's God's plan. I think it's important to back out of the conversation and then have a conversation about okay, what about the government of Israel and the nation of America? The two 21st century nations. What I would say is there's a point where I think it's it's helpful to go, wait a minute, they're our ally. Yeah. In the Middle East, we have one real ally, it's Israel. All the nations around them want to destroy them. Um, and so we're gonna stand with them to help them not get destroyed. And I think that's that's important to recognize. That's a geopolitical discussion. And so whether you have a Christian president in America, a Christian prime minister in Great Britain or not, it doesn't really matter. They're our ally. If 10 Muslim nations who are all practicing jihad, who are part of the caliphate, who were trying to destroy and eradicate all non-Muslims attacked Great Britain, we would go fight with Great Britain. Yeah. They're our ally. That's how it works. And now, another conversation for another day. How involved should America be in the world's wars and global, you know, conflict? That's not what we're talking about today. I'm just saying we can, we can, it's okay to say Israel's our ally. We should help them not get eradicated by Iran or Hamas or whatever. But at the same time, we need to recognize listen, this is going to pop the bubble of a lot of our listeners. Non-Messianic Jews in Israel hate you as a Christian.
SPEAKER_02Very progressive.
SPEAKER_03Spit on you. Yep. A progressive there, they're so progressive. It's like going on the campus of UC Berkeley. That's the average, you know, you know, liberal progressive person in Israel. Yeah. But then you've also got this weird, like, strong Orthodox Jewish um population in Israel that holds to like the old uh Jewish way of life. So it's complicated. Yeah. You know, it's very complicated. And people get hung up on it. And the bottom line is um God used the nation of Israel in a very distinct way in the old testament. Now there's a debate where do they fit into the future? And I'm not sure, but I do think there's a place for them in the future. And I think that I I happen to think that there's going to be a revival in Israel where people turn to Christ. Not all of them, yeah, but where people turn to Christ. You talk about numbers and figures. There is a figurative number in the book of Revelation where 144,000 Jews become Christians. That's figurative.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't think that's a literal 144. Like it's the eye, there's a picture of there's going to be a wake-up, an awakening where Jews realize, oh, the Messiah came. Something that I think is is interesting. If you look at the teachings, like the prophecies in the Old Testament of the first coming of Jesus, it was prophesied that right before Jesus comes into the world, there's going to be something called the abomination desolation. There's going to be a desecration of all things sacred to the Jews. Then the Messiah is going to come. There seems to be a similar teaching that in the end, that same reference, that same terminology is used. There's going to be some sort of a rise of desolation and desecration against God's people, the church, Christians, and then the end is going to come. And that's where I think it's hard to like say that we're going to get taken out before that happens.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
Could Jesus Return Right Now
SPEAKER_03That's a lot in it. Hopefully, people, I know we're going to get corrected on some things. People are pretty passionate about this. Um, yeah, with uh with that thought, there's even a debate about is the world like could Jesus return now? Has enough prophecy been fulfilled? And that's these views each sort of uh like the pre the pretrib pre-meal view, the dispensational view would say, no, there's still some things that have to happen. But um the other views would all say, yeah, he can come back anytime. And that's what we all agree on. Jesus is going to return. He can return anytime. And right there, the part that you just read, no one knows the day or the hour, not any, not even the angels in heaven or the son of man. Jesus was saying that from his human perspective. But we know that Jesus does know all things now. And but I do believe Jesus could literally come back today. There's nothing that has to happen for him to return. Um because there's the one verse you just read where it's like, when the gospel goes to all people, then the end will come. You could argue that the gospel does go, has gone to all people. Now you could also argue that there are those people groups that have never heard the gospel, but then man, it gets really complicated because you could say, Yeah, but where did they start? They go, they ties all the way back to Bible. Or what about, you know, when you see scenes, I've you've I wrestled with this one time. This is where my brain, sometimes my brain will just start doing things where I'm like, just follow, just let it go. Follow this thought out. And I had this thought, there are people around the throne in Revelation chapter four from every ethnic group, every tribe, every tongue. What about those that have not yet heard what we would call unengaged, unreached people groups? If there are people from those people groups that are gonna be at the throne, and I think, well, I believe that babies go to heaven. So maybe babies that died in those societies and people groups are gonna be there representing, you know, like that's where my brain went. Yeah, nobody teaches that. I've never heard anybody talk about that. But like you can you can start chasing rabbit travels all day long.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Missions Stories And Hidden Gospel Seeds
SPEAKER_03Okay, are we ready for Jesus to return? Could he return now? Wait, there's some people groups that have never heard, and it says everybody's gonna hear. And it's like, I don't know what to do with that because um there's also a book called Um Eternity in Their Hearts that uh uh it was written by a guy named Don Richardson. Phenom, it's a cool book where he takes these different tribes in the like like 50s and 60s, and it even goes back to like the Karan people in um modern day uh not Laos, but it's a country right beside Laos, Myanmar, which is Burma, which is where um Adonarium Judson was a missionary in the 1800s. When he got to the Karan people, he found out they had never heard the New Testament gospel, but they had already received the gospel and like all the pieces were in place. And when he told them the gospel, they're like, oh, because somebody had come through there 400 years earlier and told them about these Abrahamic prophecies. It's crazy. Like I don't remember exactly how the story went, but I re it was like he wrote a whole book about all these people groups that when the gospel got to them, they just embraced it because they had all these prophetic pieces, oral pieces that have been passed down tradition, oral tradition passed down from generation to generation. One of the people groups in the book, it goes back to their oral tradition, went back to before the time of Christ. So they had these messianic prophecies. Whoa, and then the missionary gets there and he's like, Oh, that got fulfilled 2,000 years ago by a man named Jesus, and the whole place was evangelized.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, imagine mind-blown. Like actually, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_03The book's so good. Yeah, what's it called? Eternity in their hearts. Okay, cool. Don Richardson, he all he wrote another book. It was called Peace Child, and it's about the people that he was a missionary to in Papua New Guinea. That it's also really cool. Yeah, that book, he goes to Papua New Guinea. These two tribes, he cannot get them to open their hearts to the gospel because this is cool. They keep celebrating Judas because in their culture, if you can deceive a leader, it's like the ultimate power move. And so you're worthy to be followed. So, like Judas, he tricked everybody. And so he ends up, if I remember this, he ends up, he's like, I gotta figure out a way to give them the gospel in a way that they'll appreciate it. And they had a tradition where one tribal king would send his child to another tribal king. They would exchange children and raise each other's sons. And it was a way of joining the two tribes and like we'll never fight because if we fight, I could accidentally kill my son. And he used that to talk about how God sent his son as the peace child into the world. And it and it kind of overcame their view of Judas as the great deceiver. So pretty cool. That's a cool book, too. Yeah. Don Richardson. But yeah, Eternity in their hearts, where he talks about how the gospel is already in some places that we don't even realize it. Um now we got our our job is to take the gospel to the ends of the of the earth, and um, every generation of the churches has tried to do that. And yeah, anyway, uh lots lots to talk about and things. About. So let us know your thoughts. I know we're going to get some criticisms. Uh, I know this is some tailgate theology right here. I know we're going to get some people saying, Oh man, this is right up my alley. I don't even know what to believe, but we're going to have some people saying, Oh, you butchered Owen, you butchered historic period. You got that all wrong. Here's what I do know. I know what the dispensational pre-trib pre-mill believes, because that's what I was raised on. And there's a lot of gaps in that. Uh, there's a lot of things I don't agree with. I don't believe there's a secret rapture and Christ returns twice. I think when he comes back, he's like, we're gonna do this. I'm gonna return and establish this kingdom that'll be forever. So I'll close by saying what appeals to me about all millennialism is the idea that when Jesus conquered the final enemy, the scripture said death was our final enemy, and Jesus conquered it. Let me let me let me just give you a thought. I'm gonna give you what I like about that and what I like about historic pre what makes sense about historic premillennialism. Historic premil and amiel are the two that make sense to me. Um so in Hebrews chapter two, Hebrews two, beginning verse uh eight, he put everything in subjection under his feet, and putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not see everything in subjection to him. So right now, we see not everything's in subject, but we see him for a little while, uh but we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source, that is why he's not ashamed to call them brothers. Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. So he's basically saying he in in destroying death, he destroyed the thing we all fear, which is the weapon Satan uses against us. So he killed Satan with his own weapon. Rob, in uh this past weekend, Rob used the analogy of David, chopping the head of Goliath off with Goliath's sword. Jesus used death to defeat and destroy Satan. That's what the writer of Hebrews is saying right there. So we have no fear of death. So it's kind of a cool thought that, okay, when Jesus destroyed death, he defeated Satan. So to some degree, you have to recognize that Satan is a defeated foe already. Totally. So then it becomes, okay, so what is his influence and his rule and reign? And I do think there's uh an argument that um he cannot, he can only do so much. I think a lot of times people give him too much credit.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. I think of uh Job, like when you're saying this, I think of Job and I can't remember exactly like the quote because like I've heard people make the argument like why would God like hand over Job to Satan to tempt him? But it's like he even there was limited, you know, on like what that's right, his power, you know. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. God God basically gave him a chain and let him run to the end of it, and he couldn't go further than that. Yeah. Fun stuff. It's worth it's worth continuing. You know, Jesus, there's this promised blessing for those who study these things. Who study but I'm reading, um, okay, uh, let's link this. I'm reading a book right now called More Than Conquerors. It's from an aw millennial perspective, the best I can tell. The reason I got it is my one of my favorite commentators is a guy named Hendrickson. William Hendrickson. Um he wrote predominantly in the middle part of the last century. So he wrote this book in 1939. So pre-World War II is when he wrote this book. Um, but it's called More Than Conquers, and it's been really helpful in me understanding uh that perspective from a time in history not now. Like a lot has happened since then. Um so that's been good. We can link that. I've I mean I f Baker uh Baker uh publishes it still. It was 1939, but you can still get it. I got it on Amazon.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but yep, we'll link maybe link that. I'll show you that book. I got it in my bag.
SPEAKER_05Sweet.
SPEAKER_03Just keep studying, keep digging, keep grinding. And uh so next, I have another episode I want to do about Jesus as prophet, priest, and king. That's gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That'd be cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we might try to get, like you said earlier, some guys on here for maybe a bonus episode or a part two later on. Like you said, maybe Hank or Rob, some of those guys. Um, but it might be a while because busy schedules. Busy dudes. We'll get him.
SPEAKER_03I already hit him up. I was like, hey, yeah, me and JB are gonna go ahead and do this. Yeah, I'd like to get y'all's perspective. Yeah, sure. Be fun.
SPEAKER_02Sweet.
SPEAKER_03It's good to have you back.
Resources Engagement And Final Thanks
SPEAKER_02Thanks. Good to be back. In a saddle. It is very good to be back. I'll say this. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03For those that are watching, what's this?
SPEAKER_02I got engaged. JB's engaged.
SPEAKER_03JB's getting hitched.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03Congrats. Thank you. I just now realized. So I wanted to say something about it, but I wanted you to say it. Yeah. So when you were gone these last few weeks, I couldn't say anything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I got engaged, and then I think like literally three days later, I left. So shout out Blake. He's a trooper.
SPEAKER_03He's a good dude.
SPEAKER_02Let me go on this adventure literally three days after I got engaged.
SPEAKER_03So funny. Uh Blake works in our, he's he's a construction guy. Um, so he's been, it's perfect timing because we're doing this. I mean, this uh the this bathroom facility that we're doing up on the hill, uh, that uh any of our followers, uh people that keep up with Snowbird, it's been a huge construction project. And he's been literally on that six days a week most weeks and uh doing a phenomenal job. But so it's good. He had plenty to keep him busy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I checked in on him every few days. Hey man, doing good? Good, heard from her, heard from JB. I knew I'd be like one of the last people to hear from you, but I I would go to him, yeah, I'd go to Layle, my daughter, I'd check in with your friend group. Anybody heard, anybody heard? Yeah, and then finally, your mom texted me in Austin the day before everyone, everyone then heard from me. But when she texted us, we're like, I don't know. Yeah, still don't know. She just said, Hey, she's good. Don't know when you'll hear from her. Yeah, I can't wait to hear all about it.
SPEAKER_02I can't wait. I've taken notes and I'm really excited because thank the Lord, I'll say this. I had my Bible with me. So that was such a blessing. And like I said, I read through like all of Matthew when I was there. So I'm so thankful.
SPEAKER_03I I didn't think you would get to have it. And yeah, I've okay, I've told you this, but I want to tell you this on the air. I prayed for you probably five times a day.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Like I would literally just I would think of it like if if like if you're my kid, you know, and I would be like, okay, I would just stop the same way I pray for Layle. I pray for you. But the one of the things I specifically prayed, I didn't think you could have your Bible. And so I was like, Lord, any verse she's memorized, if it was 20 years ago, five years ago, three months ago, make it come to her mind. Because I've heard people being put in prison and just all that they've committed to memory. That's why I think it's important to memorize scripture. You never know when you're gonna be in a situation. Um, but to know that you had the scripture, I was so thankful when I heard that. Such a blessing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I can't wait to talk about it. I'm like busting up the seams to be really fun. But yeah, it'll be great. Yeah, very exciting time of my life. Can't complain.
SPEAKER_03Lots going on.
SPEAKER_02Yep, a lot of fun stuff.
SPEAKER_03So NSR's blowing up since you came on this thing, and then you're getting married, and you just had a crazy adventure that's gonna literally be viral. Why don't people hear about this? It's exciting.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Pretty cool. All right, yeah. See you guys next week.
SPEAKER_03Next week.
SPEAKER_02Peace.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to No Sanity Required. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating. It really helps. Visit us at swooutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.
