What My Mom's Addiction Taught Me | Interview with Cassie Boudreaux

In this episode, we answer listener questions about codependency and sit down with Cassie Boudreaux to hear her story of growing up in a family affected by addiction. Cassie shares how discovering her mom’s hidden addiction challenged her faith, shaped her understanding of boundaries, and taught her what it means to love someone without trying to rescue them.

Together, we talk about codependency, family relationships, addiction, and how to trust Christ when someone you care about is struggling. This conversation offers practical encouragement for anyone learning to set healthy boundaries while continuing to love others well.

The Truth About Codependency

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Transcript

Feedback And Follow-Up Questions

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Okay, so last week's episode was our codependency episode, and we got a ton of good feedback, which we saw that coming. Which I was really encouraged by because I don't know, I was kind of scared. You know, it can be a touchy subject, but we got a ton of feedback.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

I think we talked about I bet we're gonna get a lot of feedback on this, but we didn't know how it would go.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

Yeah, how it was gonna land. Um, but we got a few emails that we kind of wanted to open this week's episode because this week's episode is with our beloved Cassie Boudreaux, who's been on staff. She's a legend. I love Cassie. But she has a really cool story. A big part of her t testimony is a codependent relationship with her mom. And we didn't really even plan this. Like the codependency episode followed by the Cassie episode, just kind of worked out. So that's awesome. But we kind of wanted to intro this episode of Cassie with answering a few questions that we received from the codependency episode. Um,

Caring Without A Savior Complex

SPEAKER_05 1:00

so yeah, the first one that we got was just asking, like, okay, how do we support someone and care deeply for someone and you know, still disciple them and minister to them without having that like savior complex and that I have to fix them, I feel responsible. And Cassie honestly does a really good job of kind of touching on this in the episode. So I kind of want to let that speak for itself. But I also think we can kind of just for now leave it cut and drive, just being like, okay, if you believe that this person is in Christ, then you can trust that Christ has them and Christ is gonna hold them and keep them and his will be done. So, like, okay, you still minister to them and like say what needs to be said, but you don't need to feel the responsibility of fixing them. There's a difference of feeling like grief and like a burden for someone who's like going through something hard or like you know, I don't know, just a hard tense subject or something that's been done to them or happened to them. That's you can feel burden and that's healthy, and I think you should feel grieved and burdened, but you don't need to feel responsible or like the weight of like I need to fix this. That's immediately where it gets into like savior complex, you know? Yeah, because you can't fix them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah. And that really does come out in Cassie's story because her codependency, that's what it is. Her mom's addiction, Cassie felt like she was the one that was trying to bring her mom out of this, and she started to get sort of some identity confusion, I think, where it's like, this is why I exist, is my purpose is to get my mom out of this addiction. Um yeah. Can I can I um I got a a super quick illustration? Remember uh it was week one or two of staff worship on a Monday when I talked about the Coast Guard illustration, and Little talks about this a lot. But this guy, you know, he's it's in a movie, and the the Coast Guard instructor is teaching the uh rescue swimmer, the young guy, like he's like, Man, there's so many people are floating, and this ship is this or this yacht is going down, or this vessel, whatever it is, and there's people all in the water, and we're trying to get them all out and get them to the basket so they can go into the helicopter and swim to one, and there's three, and I don't know who to get, and and uh and the and he said, and I I don't I don't feel like we can rescue them all. And the guy says, Um, go to the one closest who needs you the most, get them to safety, and then go back to the next one. And he said, Go until you can go no more and let the sea take the rest. That's all you can do. And for me, the illustration, it it kind of grows into uh to take it another level. I imagine the sea sort of being the sea of God's sovereignty. So I'm gonna work the person that needs me the most, that's closest to me. I'm gonna try to get them. But I but but there's a point where I can't I can't rescue that person and I gotta entrust them into the sovereign hand of God, you know, just let them go. You gotta be willing to let a person go. And I've had a couple of relations a couple of relationships in my life that are very difficult through ministry where we've let people go. Just like gotta entrust them into the sovereign hand of God and trust him with their life and trust him with my life, and if God sees fit that one day there'll be some reconciliation, or the relationship will have the healing it needs, or this person will realize, yeah, I couldn't help you the way you needed to be helped. Um It's a hard thing to it's it's a very difficult thing to figure out, but it's important to work towards.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Yeah. And I would I would say also, like, if you're in that position where you are in a close relationship ministering to this person, like I think that's something that you can pray about and work through in your own heart and mind and conviction of like, am I in my brain, do I think I'm the one that's gonna save this person? You know, like we can't we can talk through this all day, but ultimately, like you're the one in the situation, you're the one in the day-to-day. So just pray about that and keep like a pretty decent pulse on that of like, okay, am I feeling like, oh, I'm the savior here. I'm gonna fix her, I'm gonna heal her. You know, just I don't know. I I say that to the Alamo Girls all the time about like flirting with guys. I'm like, we're not with you all the time. So like if you feel yourself flirting with a guy, just be convicted and move away. Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, yeah.

When A Mom Clings To Her Son

SPEAKER_05 5:29

Um, and then another question that we got, and me and Bertie were talking before we started recording, we actually kind of see this often about moms and sons. So, like when mom when sons are little, sometimes moms can be we briefly touched on this in the codependency episode, but they can just be like have a special bond that kind of turns weird, right? And I think a lot of people will turn a blind eye when they're young, you know, because they're just little boys. But then sometimes that can fester and linger when the son grows up, gets married to another woman, and then the mom still is kind of expecting this super deep relationship that they used to have. Um, and so we both kind of agree that that's weird, right? And not ideal. Um, but also like in scripture, I thought it was funny when I was writing through these um questions. I thought of in Genesis where it talks about like, therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and then the two shall become one flesh. And that's also mentioned again in Ephesians. Um, but I think it's funny because in Genesis, I was kind of reading the whole chapter, and it's right after, you know, God puts Adam to sleep, takes the rib, creates Eve, right? And then not to say it's like random or out of place, but then he like this is just spoken kind of randomly. But I think it's like in my brain, I was thinking, okay, God knew we needed to hear that, right? It's only in chapter two, so he got to it right away, you know, didn't leave any room for like I don't know, debate. I think it's pretty clear in this. Like a man shall leave his father and mother, hold fast to his wife, and they will become one flesh. In my brain, I'm like point blank period.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

It seems so clear.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I think uh this is I I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than needs to be, but this is a problem. Like this is a big deal. If if you're in a marriage where and typically it is the mother to the son of of the marriage, so you don't see this you do see it with the wife and her mom having like a super tight codependent relationship, but where it gets weird is the mom to the son. And it's it's very uh to me, it's it's concerning enough that you need to take drastic measures. I think when two people get married, and this is not always realistic, but when two people get married, I think it's ri it works out really well when they don't live near either set of parents. Um hour two is fine. But if you can have some geographic distance where mom's not running over every day after work and you're not expected to eat Sunday dinner every week, and a lot of people are like, well, that's what we do, we love it, you know. And I talked about a family in that episode that that I know where both kids still live at home and are up into their twenties. And there's there's something about when two people get married starting their life together, and there needs to be a healthy degree of separation between both sets of parents, and especially at first. And I would just say that I think I think that's the principle of Genesis 2 and Ephesians that that verse in Ephesians that where it repeats it. And um I I if you're in a situation where you're the wife, like I think we received this email from a wife, and it's her husband and his mom that have this sort of codependent relationship, um, I think where it gets difficult is if the husband won't acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

But the wife sees it.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

The wife sees it. Yeah. That gets weird, man.

SPEAKER_05 9:24

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It's really weird and it's not healthy. So I would say you've got to address this and talk about these things, but the the only bit of counsel I would give to that wife is if you just harp on this to him, it's gonna become background noise and he's gonna be combative. So you need to leave it alone and in a healthy, what I like to call a light of day conversation. A light of day conversation is where you sit down and talk about something when you when it's not the heat of the moment. Right. We're having a good day. Let's go to lunch, we can get coffee. Hey, I want to bring something up. I want to talk to you about your relationship with your mom. I don't want you to get defensive. We just hear me out. And I want to share some concerns I have. Share those concerns, but have prepared your own heart to not have an expectation for how he's gonna respond. And say some things where you take the fight out of the conversation. I was talking to a dude last night, one of our community group leaders, who you know very well, saying, Hey, when you have this confrontational conversation, if you can sort of take the fire out of their response, it'll really, it'll really springboard the conversation forward. So if you say something like, hey, listen, I don't want to, I'm not trying to be combative or argumentative. I know that I've got I've got to do better at this. But I feel like we've got to extend each other some grace and figure out how to move past this together. And I want to do that well, and I'll and I and I want you to do that well. I think in this situation, what that wife can say is something similar where sit down with your husband. You're not gonna be accusatory and say, you're just a mama's boy, you're codependent on your mom. It's like, hey, we need to sit down and have a discussion where I need you to know, and I want to be really gracious toward you, and I want us to be charitable and gracious towards each other. But I feel like this is an area we've really got to figure out a path forward. And I think there's some unhealthy, there's some unhealthy components to the relationship between us as a married couple and your mom. You don't have to say between you and your mom. I say between us. You need to bring yourself into that conversation. Yep. Because it's and I and and say to him, I just want you to pray about it. I don't want to argue right now. I want this to be a short conversation. I've prayed about it, and I want to put this in front of you, and I want you to just pray about it and just ask the Lord, hey, is there some truth to this? And and I'd like to circle back and have some conversation later, something like that. Because if he doesn't acknowledge it, you're not gonna go anywhere with this. It's gonna just create an argument.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

But it needs to be addressed. Yeah. And your husband's a little weird.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

But we all are. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

And I would say to like a mom, maybe a younger mom that has a son and is like weary of this. We were kind of talking beforehand of like just acknowledging, like, from the moment your son is born, he's not yours, right? He's the Lord's, right? And he could be taken, like the Lord could take him at any moment, and just kind of living and resting in that, and then also knowing and praying from like the moment he's born and the moment that like you're holding him. Like, pray for his future, pray that one day he does go off and marry a wife, and like you're able to like rejoice in that. I was telling when I was younger, my mom used to always come into our room with me and my sisters and like pray, pray for us at night, but then also she would always pray for like our future spouse and our future marriage. And so, just like go about it in a healthy and excited way of like, I want my son to go off and get married and have a healthy marriage. And I don't want to be a hindrance to that in any way, you know. It's kind of crazy saying that out loud, but it is so common. It is I see it all the time and hear about it all the time. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Um that's a good point.

SPEAKER_05 13:14

I think those are the only two like super specific questions we got. Um, but I'm really excited for you guys to hear from Cassie. Um, I I've worked with Cassie for like five years and I didn't even know the extent of her testimony. So it's super powerful and impactful and goes right in step with what our codependency episode was about last week.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

So I loved the one I loved a couple of uh comments we got from men. Because we addressed it on the front end of that episode. We addressed it. If you're a dude and you're listening to this, just listen, I think you'll get something out of it. And we had a we had a Marine who said, Hey, a couple of my young Marines are dealing with this with their wives or girlfriends or something like that. And he's like, I this is this is so helpful. I thought that that encouraged me as much as anything for that dude to say, This is gonna help me minister to these young guys that I'm trying to lead well. That was cool.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

A Marine to Marines, talking about an episode on codependency among girls, and the Lord's gonna use that. That's pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_05 14:16

Uh Blake Bramblett, now Blake Boyer, she's like our biggest fan, lover. Yeah. But she texted me, and for years, like I've looked up to Blake. She worked at Snowbird before, like when I was just a mongoose, you know. And so in my eyes, I'm like, Blake is so wise and you know, mature. And she texted and she was like, I love that episode. Like, it was so helpful, so encouraging. So always love to hear feedback, and we got ample amount on this episode. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

We love Cassie. Yep, we love Cassie. We love Cassie so much. This is gonna be great.

SPEAKER_05 14:45

Yep, sweet. Well, I hope you guys enjoy this week's episode.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Welcome

Meeting Cassie Boudreaux

SPEAKER_00 14:54

to No Sanity Required from the Ministry of Snowbird Wilderness Outfitters, a podcast about the Bible, culture, and stories from around the globe.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I'm trying to, we have uh a lot of memories together. I'm trying to remember my first Cassie Boudreaux memory. First off, first off, today's guest has the coolest last name of anybody we've ever had. Yes. I dread, I I I hate it for you that when you get married, you should think about hyphenating, maybe to lose that name.

SPEAKER_07 15:27

It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

We're gonna marry somebody last name Smith or Jones.

SPEAKER_05 15:30

Probably.

SPEAKER_06 15:30

It's gonna be so lame.

SPEAKER_05 15:32

Wait, is it like what is it? French?

SPEAKER_06 15:34

It's French, but it's like Cajun. Like my great-grandma's uh was like French Canadian, moved to Louisiana, spoke no English, like so cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I don't think I've ever told you this. You've how long have you been at camp working? 10 years?

SPEAKER_06 15:53

Uh this will be my tenth summer at camp.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Which is just awesome.

SPEAKER_06 15:57

So your first summer is what, 2016? Uh it was 2015. I had some gaps. Okay, cool. Um, making up for the gaps, but I have some gaps.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

And to be clear, as we get into this conversation, people will hear you're not here to work summer stuff. You're in a full-time leadership role here. I should make that clear because it's funny. I think there's a lot of misconceptions. I want to come back. I want to finish my boudreau thought.

SPEAKER_07 16:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

But a lot of people actually let me finish the boudreau thought and then we'll go to that because it gets serious. So me and Little were on our honeymoon. Um, we went on a on just a stank hunt. We went to Myrtle Beach, Dirty Myrtle.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

Dirty Myrtle.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

We went to Dirty Myrtle. The reason we went to Dirty Myrtle is because we were broke as a joke, and my granddad said, Hey, I'll pay for y'all at a, I mean, at the the Wave Rider Inn. It was a motel where we literally saw a drug deal go down. So we spent a week at the Wave Rider Inn. I think the whole week cost my pops about 500 bucks. You know, it was, it was, it was, it was a rough place. But I had grown up going there. My granddad, we would go out there and fish, and we would stay at this. Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. We go to I had a buddy that his parents lived in North Myrtle, and his mom for a wedding gift, they had retired and moved out there, gave us tickets to these shows.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Like a pirate show. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

So we go to one, and it's like some kind of variety show. I don't remember anything about it except the MC DJ guy. His name was Boudreaux. And he spoke with a Cajun accent. I think it was all an act. But uh, but I always I always remember this guy, Boudreaux. And when you came, when I first met you and you came to work at camp, I was like Boudreaux. Always thought that was the coolest name.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

Could be a long-lost cousin or brother or something. Boudreaux.

SPEAKER_06 17:44

My name is like Smith or Jones in Louisiana, though. Like once, yeah, like once you're like not in those places, it sounds so unique and like cool. And but there it's like everyone is Boudreau.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Like, isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_06 17:59

Yeah, that's funny. The amount of people that have sent me like pictures of like statues places that are like, Are you related to this person? Do you know the butt cream guy? Like, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Oh, yeah, butt cream.

SPEAKER_06 18:09

Is that really butt paste? Yeah, it's for babies.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, boot gross butt paste. That's awesome. That's funny.

SPEAKER_06 18:16

People would get me it for gifts in like high school, and I was like, what do you want me to do?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

You should just be like, guys, I own this company. You don't need to bomb me.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

My father owns this. I'm so rich. So you went to high school, or you're are you from Louisiana?

SPEAKER_06 18:31

No, from Florida. From Florida. Okay. Um, from Florida, transplant, like Which sounds way cooler to be from Louisiana. It does. I kind of wish. Yeah. Um, no, both my parents are not even from Florida. My mom's from California, and then my dad is from Pennsylvania, but his parents are from East Texas, Louisiana. Oh. And they were were they planted a church in Pennsylvania for like 40 years. Wow. And um, they were always the southern couple at that church, even though they lived in Pennsylvania like longer than they lived in Texas or Louisiana. Oh, which is Dang I'm right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

You're southern, you're southern.

SPEAKER_06 19:13

All the way through.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

No shame in that.

SPEAKER_06 19:15

No shame in that. No, no. Not me, but because Florida's not southern.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

But that that explains why y'all are Penn State fans.

SPEAKER_06 19:21

Yes. That is why my dad is a Penn State Phillip. He went there, he graduated from there.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Okay. I didn't realize all that. Passed the obsession on to my brother and like they say that's one of that's if not the most I think Penn State and Ohio State are the two and two most rabid fan bases.

SPEAKER_06 19:37

I would believe that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

It'd be cool to go to a game. They say the whiteout game there is crazy. Have you been?

SPEAKER_06 19:43

I haven't been, but my brother and my dad have been before, and they're like, family vacation. This is the goal. So I'm just waiting for when the next trip is.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

They say it's quite an experience. The not white out game.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

I've seen clips where they all have like the towels and they're like swinging them around.

SPEAKER_06 20:00

And like the decibel system and like the stadium, like you're just deaf afterwards or something. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 20:06

Dang. So when did your parents move down to Florida? Um like me, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 20:11

My parents, um, they actually went to high school together, but they weren't high school sweethearts. Um, my mom was told by her friends not to date my dad because my mom was a serial dater, and everyone told my mom that my dad was a nice guy and that she shouldn't like ruin him or something. But they uh they worked at the same restaurant in college and like had the same friend group. So then like their friends were dating, they started dating. And my mom was from California originally, so she was like, after they got married, she's like, I really don't want to be in the cold. So my dad looked for jobs in Florida and they moved down.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

That's how they ended up down there. And the way I met y'all, um I'm trying to remember this youth pastor's name.

SPEAKER_06 20:56

Dale Eby.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Before Dale. Oh, yeah, Dale's president.

SPEAKER_06 21:00

Dave Carroll.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Dave Carroll.

SPEAKER_06 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

That was it. And Dale came after Dave, right? Yes. So Dave was the first guy. He brought a group of For a winter swow. Yeah, and this would have been like our fifth year.

SPEAKER_06 21:11

2007? Was it that far in? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Okay. So we were 10 years in then. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 21:19

They set Freedom Cabin on fire. I found that out. Um, were you there? No, I wasn't. I was like in yeah, elementary school.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

But they put a towel on a heater and I remember there was a lady from your church who was I think she was Dutch. She worked for KLM. She did the international flight. She was a flight attendant. And her husband, I don't remember what he did, but they owned land in Martin's Creek up here.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

And um I was fascinated talking to her about. I always loved to talk to people from other cultures. They were a little older. Like they were they were already plant like talking about retirement. And so in 20 years ago, their kids were graduating.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

So their kids are now late 30s, probably.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Their older ones maybe in their forties. But you don't remember that who I'm you can't think about. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_06 22:15

I can't think of a Dutch family.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Well, the dad was from here. Yeah. The kids you'd have never known, but the lady had had the accent, and she would she work like two or three shifts. I remember she's like I I fly to Amsterdam like twice a month. And she said, I mainly have kept the job so that we can fly for free. You know? Pretty cool. But I remember that, and I remember Dave, and then Dave left. Del EB came in.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And then the relationship really got strong because he was he became a snowbird guy.

SPEAKER_06 22:45

Yes. My entire time in youth group. We only went to snowbird. Wow. The only camp I went to was So what when was your first summer? 2008.

SPEAKER_05 22:55

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 22:56

Uh I was a camper from 2008 to 2014. And then hopped on staff. 2015 staff. Yeah. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

So uh we came down there and did an event.

SPEAKER_06 23:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

You were in like maybe ninth grade, eighth grade.

SPEAKER_06 23:10

You guys came down a couple times, I think, with the world tours. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

And like And this is way down in Florida. Yes. Jupiter.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

Jupiter, Florida.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Jupiter, Florida, which is pretty far down.

SPEAKER_06 23:21

Twelve hours from here. Almost Miami, but not quite.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Austin Scott is also.

SPEAKER_05 23:27

I was about to say it always makes me laugh that you and Austin like have known each other for your whole life.

SPEAKER_06 23:33

Yeah. Went elementary school together. It's so crazy. We weren't friends till like middle school, but him and my brother are best friends, like because of me, because I was friends with Austin first.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

That's how him and your brother are.

SPEAKER_06 23:45

Um but yeah, they're like in each other's weddings, like all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

It's wild because y'all are both in leadership at Snowbird now. Yeah. Which just gets into what I was gonna say a while ago that I said was serious. I've heard two people, I've heard two comments recently that just got mad. Which is no surprise. You know, when you hear what they said. One person said to one of our one to a manager here, he had a family member say, When are you gonna get a real job? Okay, people.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

What do you well, I don't even know what that means. And this person I know what they do for a living, and it is not a more real job than what this guy's doing here. You know, like but it just goes back to on the idea that if you give yourself to ministry, people that are secular-minded are never gonna understand it.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

And this dude's it it was it was um it was an in-law that said this. And I think I think there was a pressure maybe to go chase the American dream.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Then another person who said that uh he had someone ask him, You're still you're st you're still at Snowbird? Like that this is a shelf life kind of place. And I think my granddad worked in the same factory for 40 years.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

But my brother has been a teacher for 28. Yeah. No one says to him, Wait, you still doing that teaching thing? When are you gonna do something different?

SPEAKER_05 25:20

You know, every time I go home, one of my friends, or like this past Christmas, one of my good friend's mom was like, JB, what about you? Like, what's your five-year plan? Like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm doing it. Like, yeah, yeah. I mean she was like, Wait, this is it. I was like, Yeah. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

It's crazy because I think there's just a lot of misconceptions. And the reason I love having people like you come on here is our listening base gets to hear, wait a minute. These are people that are like committed. Holloway's not the uh JB and Brody aren't the people committed to Snowbird. There's a there's like a work being done because so many people are being obedient.

unknown 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

And I know the one of the big goals of our of our of this episode is to really walk through what it's like, what it's been like for your story of living in a house where addiction was real. We're gonna really get into that. But I just I love for people to meet our people that have been here.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

You know, because it's not just oh, this is my third summer. We have those people, but oh, you've built something here. Like your hand, your handprint is on something.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And so a lot of people that are gonna listen to this are gonna be like, Oh, yeah, I know Cassie. I've I know Cassie. Oh wow, I didn't know I know Cassie, but now I feel like I know her better. You know, that's one thing that's gonna be cool coming out of this.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Anyway, my family loves you a lot. My wife really loves you, little loves you, and y'all y'all have the funniest relationship.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

She's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Um, and so you're like family, and uh so because of that, I'm really excited for people to hear your story. I know your story. Um, so I want to go back to that. When let's start with around the time I got to know you as a kid coming to camp, and your sister as a kid coming to camp, and your brother.

SPEAKER_06 27:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Um, and your brother served at Snowbird. Yes. Your sister didn't, but your brother did.

SPEAKER_06 27:16

My sister did too.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Did she serve?

SPEAKER_06 27:17

She did servant team in 2014. She was a one and none girl. I forgot about her. Camp was hard on her, but she did it, and she's glad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Hey, she's a um, she's like um a woman of the uh like like a modern times woman.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Snowbird's not for everybody. It's not for everybody. Especially not coming and working summer staff. It's it's a grind. It is.

unknown 27:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

And if her first experience was servant theme, which is now element.

SPEAKER_05 27:44

I feel like we have a a good amount of people from Florida, your area of Florida, who come and like work at Snowbird, and they either like love it and stay forever, or they're like, oh, this is so different from Boca Raton. Like, wait, I what is happening? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Which Tuck is, you know, living in Boca. Crazy playing ball at FAU. And I he's he's coming home this evening for like two days. He's flying to Dallas to train at an NFL facility out there. Yeah. But so he's gonna come home for a couple days, fly out of Asheville.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So he's stopping on his way up today. He's gonna take Laylee, they're gonna get supper, hang out next weekend tonight. Yeah. And I said, How you doing? I talked to him, he stopped at our cousin's in middle Georgia last night, and he said, Oh, this is this is the longest I've ever gone and not been in the mountains. He said, I'm losing my mind. He said, I love the beach, I love seeing the ocean, I love being down here. Yeah, I know it's where God's got me, but this is not my home. And you know, like there's something about the mountains. It's but Pete, you talk to a lot of people from South Florida. They feel that way about the beach. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're like, This is home. Phillip Smith, my buddy. He's like, I'm we're fifth generation in Martin County, right beside where you're from. And so there's a strong culture down there for for the people that have lived and lived their whole lives there.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

So anyway, you come to camp. Your

Faith Awakening At Summer Camp

SPEAKER_01 29:08

your family whole family came to camp.

SPEAKER_06 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

It changes your life.

SPEAKER_06 29:11

It does. This is where I heard the gospel and like became a believer. Like in a sermon that uh the big kahuna did.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 29:21

And I can like still remember like he was talking about uh Jesus calling the man, uh, the demons out of the man and into the pigs. And he made the point of like the demons recognize the deity of Jesus uh without being followers. And like, is your faith that? And the Holy Spirit just like convicted me in my heart. I was like, that is me 100%. Went outside with some camp counselor who I can't remember, prayed some prayer I can't remember. And I was like, my life has changed. Like it was just like a clear, like night and day, like veil is lifted, like really sweet. And like as a kid, I hated worship. Fun fact about me, I'm not a good singer. It's not where I shine at all. Um, and worship was always that like one thing you had to get through before you got to go run around outside and be a dummy. Like, so it was like, I hate worship. I hate that they're doing X amount of songs. But then, like, I remember after praying that prayer, after um that life change, like being in worship and being like, I'm singing about God to God. And like, this is so cool, and like this is so overwhelming of like, okay, this thing I hated for so long, like I love this. Like, this is how I'm talking to the creator and like acknowledging who he is. Oh man, yeah, that is gold. Yeah. So then got to go around, tell everyone, like, hey, I'm a believer now. I thought I was.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

How old were you? Eighth grade?

SPEAKER_06 30:48

Uh I was 12. I was the sixth grader.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Sixth grade.

SPEAKER_06 30:52

Yeah. So real annoying, I'm sure. And like got to go up to everyone and be like, hey, like, I'm a believer now. I know I said I was before, but like that wasn't genuine for me. Like, this is different. This is real, like, yeah, kind of deal.

SPEAKER_05 31:07

Two things. I feel like that's super common because I feel like around that age for me too, like 12 is when like the wheels really started to turn. And like I started to understand, oh, wait, like sanctificate what sanctification was, like what worship was. Like, I feel like that's super common. And I see that a lot at like with campers at Snowbridge. But two, what was your home life like before that? Like, were your parents believers? Were you in church often?

SPEAKER_06 31:33

Yeah. Um, we were in church all the time. Uh, my dad was a deacon, and then he ended up being an elder at our church. Um, so we were like in the doors constantly kind of thing. Um, and there was definitely like a pressure of performance at different parts of like, you know. Like when I became a believer, I was like, oh, I'm kind of embarrassed that I have to tell people that like because they thought you were they thought I was already a believer. I already had gotten baptized. And like, you know, but it was like all of those things were out of like an idea of pleasing my parents rather than like a relationship with the Lord. And the Lord allowed me to like see that, recognize it, and then just like suck it up and say, no, this is real. Like, this is not a rededication, this is not a recommitment. Like, I was dead and now I'm alive in Christ. And like, you know, I was very shy as a kid, um, quieter, because I just had this wrong idea that everything I said like didn't really matter, didn't have value, like insecurities. And like I remember like becoming a believer, the Lord just like speaking into that and like telling me the worth that I had and like pointing me to places in scripture where it's like, oh, my worth is in this, it's not in what I say. And it gave me like more confidence to talk and to like make friends and all that stuff that's like hard in middle school in general.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

It's crazy thinking uh a couple thoughts. One, her sister's crazy, yes, like fun crazy, like crazy, like fun crazy. She's like that wild kid that and you're like really chill kid, like y'all were so different, super close, but you're so different. And I remember my first memory of Cassie. You were about seventh grade, probably.

SPEAKER_06 33:25

Probably.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

And we were at your church, and your sister comes. We pull in in the van.

SPEAKER_07 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And here comes this wild child who I knew, like I remembered her from camp. You didn't forget her. This is probably about 2008 or nine, somewhere in there. And she comes running out, and she got little Cassie and toad. They they they're on the sidewalk. I can't remember. We pull in the church, it's like well, not the front of the church, maybe, but we we had pulled in and we were gonna go this way and into a door, and y'all came she came running out, and you were with her.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

I bet I can't remember that.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

It's crazy because I'm like, okay, guys, uh buckle up, you know, to the people in the van. And um, and she did. She came running right out to the door.

SPEAKER_06 34:09

Who's older, you or her? I'm older. Okay, are you the oldest? I'm the oldest. Okay. But uh, there's only three years between all of us.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

So, like wait, so she would have been She's two years younger than me.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

Yeah, sixth grade.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 34:22

And then my brother's three years younger than me.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, she was probably, and she might have been eighth or ninth grade. But anyway, yeah, these two these two kids, and there's little middle school or teenage Cassie, just kind of hanging in the in almost like and her sister's just like jumping beans. She's just bouncing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

That's funny. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

And uh, but I remember you probably don't remember it, but I remember talking to you, you know, we had a like a pretty chill conversation, and we're getting out, hey, we're excited to be here, and she was like all over the place.

SPEAKER_06 34:57

Mm-hmm. Opposite in every way for sure. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

So then walk us through kind of home, especially through high school, and then especially after.

SPEAKER_06 35:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um for, you know, you look back at your life and you're like, oh, this is what everyone kind of how it is for them. There's no like differences that stand out. Um but yeah, Christian home, like always in there, doors open, uh, got discipled uh by a girl that worked on staff here and then was like super intentional to like meet with me, teach me how to read the Bible, like changed my life on like, okay, this is how you live it out. Um and that kind of thing. Went off to college, had this like idea of my family, like you know, everyone knew who we were in church. Like, my dad's an elder, we're on all these serving teams, we're like uh in leadership and like the youth group kind of deal. Um, and all the Bible studies, all that. Uh and then uh, you know, just thinking that everything is how like people live and uh came to camp in 2015, worked on summer staff, was awesome, uh so challenging that uh application is awesome, grows your faith, puts words to different concepts, um, taught me like, okay, this is how I share the gospel with people, and this is how I do it every single day for like an entire summer. Um, and then, you know, I was away at uh college and uh it was really jarring like finding out that my mom was in addiction.

Discovering A Parent's Addiction

SPEAKER_06 36:46

It was like, it felt like something out of a movie, like something that wasn't like really happening at the time it happened. Cause like in my head, it was just like perfect Christian family, normal home, make middle income, whatever, you know, like not really hurting for a whole lot of things, not a whole lot of like struggles, I would say. Um, and then I come home from uh college in 2017. Um and I'm home for like a week or something, and then all of a sudden our phones turn off. Um, all of our phones, we get like this text message that says, um, you know, you haven't paid your bill, la la la, like, you know, you don't have service, but we're connected to the Wi-Fi. And my mom's not in the house, but she sends out a text that says, Um, hey, I'm so sorry. I gambled away the phone bill money and I'm leaving for California. I've messed up so much. I love you all. Bye. And we're is that how you found out? That's how I found out. And we're all just sitting there and we're like, what is that? Like, you know, I'm with my siblings. And I'm like, I don't understand. And then my dad like uh comes in the room and he's like, Yeah, so your mom's been like struggling with addiction to uh pain pills for the last like three to five years. And we're all like, What? Like, what do you mean? And she's saying that she gambled the money away to not spend it on drugs. And I'm like, this has no like concept of like what I know about my family at all. But it made a lot of things like click that I was like, oh wait, that isn't like a normal thing. Like my parents both make good incomes, incomes and that kind of thing. It's weird that my mom would ask me for like my high school paycheck from the pizzeria, you know, and like little stuff like that where I'm like, oh yeah, that was like a very weird, like sharp outburst that like didn't make sense in the context of the conversation we were having. It was like, bam, like different person and really upset. And like little things like that where I'm like, oh, these are things that like people, other people don't have this in their home life. And I was like, it makes more sense. But just like grappling with like a I did, I've felt like I was like, who is my mom? Do I even know my mom? Like, and also being away at college, I was like, okay, my siblings are all starting to go to college. Like my brother was starting in the fall, and my sister was already at college, but like we're all here for the summer. Like, what are we gonna do? What's my dad gonna do? Because my dad was just like so uh defeated. Like, yeah, like we just we handled this on our own and we never wanted to tell you guys. And I'm sorry, you're told. And it's like, okay, but we're a family. Like, you know, we're a family, we're adults. Like, why are you still trying to hide this entire part of life that you guys have just been like navigating on your own? Um, so this is like the part of my story where I don't recommend what I'm about to say that I did. Um, but this is just like descriptive of like what happened next. Um, I was a semester ahead in college. So I made the decision to just stay home the next semester and stay home with my dad. And I got three jobs and I was just like working, like trying to figure out making ends meet, and then just trying to be there because my dad was just like so alone and isolated in it. Um, and like all my siblings gone to school like they should have been. And I had the bandwidth to what I felt like was do something. Um, so it was just like a really hard, difficult season. Um, feeling that isolation, feeling like that Lord, like I didn't even know my family was an idol in my life until it was like really clearly like broken in front of me and being like, oh wow, like I had this like idea, this picture, this pride and this stuff that like didn't need to be there, shouldn't be there. Like I should be dependent on you, not my family, not who my mom is, not who my dad is, not how my siblings react to this. Um, and I remember it like being a season where like the Lord really impressed on me, like just this spiritual dependence, spiritual and emotional dependence on the Lord that was unlike any other time in my life. I feel like Snowbird that first summer really taught me physical dependence on the Lord. And like, you know, just like being super tired, being super out of it, and being like, okay, but the Lord like spoke through me for the Holy Spirit and like got me through the the in-betweens. But like that season, just being like, Lord, I'm so like broken. Lord, I'm just like trying to pour out to my dad and trying to like uh manage my mom, which in this season I learned for me personally, uh, that I struggle with uh codependency. And um, codependency in terms of like addiction is when one person is like a caretaker for someone who is not caretaking for themselves. So I would be like, hey, mom, I'll take you to a meeting. I would try to manage her addiction and like, hey, mom, how are you doing? Hey, mom, let's talk about the Lord or this thing. Hey, you gotta get out of bed. Hey, let me brush your hair, like different aspects like that. And then it was just like me and my dad going to church by ourselves and just like crying, just like that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Sorry, that's a lot of information. No, that's interesting. It's really helpful. Yeah. Uh, I want to ask you a question about would you say that um what you're describing is that codependency? You're what you're describing is you're finding value and worth in taking care of this person. Yeah. Um in turn, does it essentially would you say then you're enabling them to stay in that? I'm thinking for people that are listening that might go, oh, maybe I have Yes, I was definitely.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

I mean, I was working three jobs. I was a family from le losing their house.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah, I think it's important. I've never heard it explained that way, but it it makes so much sense for you to say it.

SPEAKER_06 43:17

It's a codependency where you're finding this sense of value and worth in taking care of this person who doesn't care or who would rather stay in their and my emotions are all tied up in the most unstable person in my life. Like my day was dependent on how my mom was doing. It was at the point, like this is the most clear picture of it in my head is like people would ask me how I was doing, and my answer would be, my mom is this. Like it wasn't how are you doing? Like, it took people being like, that's not the question I asked over and over to me to be like, oh, like this is a problem. Yeah. Kind of deal.

SPEAKER_05 43:58

I also think it probably took. Help that you're already the oldest child. Like I already see, like I'm sure you can talk about this too. Like being the oldest child, I can't talk about it because I'm the youngest. So but like I've seen it with my sisters too. Like you there is just a different pressure for you being the oldest child. And then plus all of this stuff with your mom and your parents and your siblings. You're like, wait, I you feel the pressure I need to take on an even bigger role. Yeah. Where I get my validation and you know, my feelings of feeling good or having a good day or a bad day. Um, so during all of this, was your mom she went to California for how long?

SPEAKER_06 44:34

She actually never got on the plane to California.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

That was just a a threat that would be and part of that was she wasn't capable.

SPEAKER_06 44:44

Yeah, manipulation for sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 44:48

She's I'm in these low lows. I'm feeling so bad. How do I turn everyone back around to like be on my side?

SPEAKER_01 44:56

I gotta be a victim is being a victim. Yeah, and it really worked with you.

SPEAKER_06 45:00

Oh, yeah. Hook line and sinker for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Um You're like 21, uh 22. 22.

SPEAKER_06 45:06

What was your siblings reaction to all this? Um my siblings. I remember being jealous of them because my siblings um were able to just like detach from it in a way that like I could not mimic what they did, like how they were able to just go, like, okay, gonna go live my own life. Like I was all consumed by it. Um, you know, like I put college on hold to like be there. I was trying to like convince my dad, like daily, weekly, that my mom needed to go to rehab. Um and these kinds of things. And that was like, yeah, my siblings were able to like separate it, go to college, and then not think about it until they came home. And I was not that way.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

I just I I didn't want to interrupt you, but I did want to point out what a significant thing that is that you're shining a light on because I think people are gonna listen to this and maybe not even realize that they that they're they fall into that category. And I think, you know, Jeby and I recently recorded an episode on codependency. We mainly focused on girl-to-girl codependency, but we talked about other forms of it. This is not something we specifically talked about, but it it probably needs its own episode.

SPEAKER_05 46:26

Yeah. And I would like for you to talk about this, like finding the balance of okay, my mom's in a very hard spot, and I do want to love her and care for her, but not becoming codependent or like getting all of your validation and stuff. That's something, even like with my sister, and this is a little bit different, but it's like finding the balance of okay, she's living a lifestyle that I don't agree with. So I I want to love on her, but not enable her. You know what I mean? So, in the same breath, like, could you speak on how you kind of went about that, or maybe when you realize like, oh, I'm codependent on this relationship, and how you kind of like maybe put up some boundaries, maybe put up some boundaries of like I'm still gonna love my mom and support her and care for her, but it cannot be this way anymore, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_06 47:14

Yeah,

Breaking Codependency With Boundaries

SPEAKER_06 47:15

I think I think a lot of that was um once once I left and uh went to finish college, um, that like distance, um, which in a way like led me here. Um in that distance, like seeing like, okay, that's not a healthy relationship for me. Um, it needs to be different, but not understanding like how it needs to be different. Um, once I was here uh talking with like Brody and uh Sean Clark and uh Carol Ellis, who's like pouring into me when I did the institute um about my mom and just like the encouragement of like uh when stuff would go wrong, I would want to drop everything and like go back to Florida to fix it. Um, and just uh this was said by you, Brody, specifically um in one of our talks about it, where uh you encouraged me that like what I was doing here was right and that I was like serving the Lord, that I wasn't focusing on myself, that I wasn't in this like pity party of like, oh, my mom's an addict, feel bad for me, oh my family's broke, you know, like that kind of stuff where I feel like social media and like our culture is like, oh, just like you have it hard. Like, just dwell in that, just sit in that. It was like, no, like I came to Snowbird, I served, and I was like, okay, the Lord's given me these things. I'm gonna do this with my life. And just sort of that unintertwining it, on I can't think of the word to sit, but sort of that like separation of like my life is not her life. My life I had to live on my own. Yeah. Like, you know, not making my entire life about my family dynamic in that way of like making decisions, where specifically for me put me outside of Florida, put me outside of that easy driving distance to go back home and fix everything and try to parent my parents and like be their functional savior. Cause that at its core, like that was the sin I was struggling with was like, I care for my parents more than the Lord does, and I know how to fix it better. Um, which Lord is so gracious and kind and revealing to me that I'm not better. And um just that like um submission to the Lord in prayer over them was like pretty constant. Um, of like, okay, Lord, like you love them more than I love them. That's the reality. And like you are bigger than addiction, you're bigger than the situation. If I believe that you raise from the dead, I can believe that you command everything in between, including this situation. Um but yeah, that kind of gets me uh to the decision to come here uh after the situation with uh being home, my mom going to a rehab, it not working, a lot of family fallout over that. Um then being in college, being like, what do I do next? I'm gonna graduate in May. And I was like, all I know is I can't go back home. Like that was like the one concrete thing in my mind. So then I'm just like praying, fasting, trying to seek the Lord. And the Lord was like really clear and putting Snowbird on my heart and doing the institute program. And I was so mad at the Lord. Like, I did not want to do the institute program because like I was getting a fancy degree from an expensive college that I couldn't afford now because my parents who were making an obscene amount of money are now not because of addiction. My parents who said, like, oh, we'll get it covered, that's no longer the case, kind of deal. Um, so I'm like, no, Lord, you can't be calling me to go make no money and like all these things. Um, but the Lord is so gracious and kind that before I even like came to work that summer in 2018 and like then go on to do the institute program, the Lord made it very clear to me how like spiritually um empty I was, how I was just like pouring out, maybe not in the right way to my family, but just like so pouring out without being poured into at all by any other believers in my life. And um that the Lord was like, no, you just need to go serve and you go need you need to go be around believers who love the Lord are gonna encourage you. And like that, uh that was so gracious and kind of the Lord. Um, my year that I interned was probably the most clear year that I've ever felt contentment in my life. And that was just a blessing from the Lord of like being in his will. And like, you know, then throughout the intern year, it turned from like not wanting to like just be obedient, get it done, check it off, do an institute year to like, oh, I want to be here long term. Oh, I love this ministry, oh, I want to serve here in any way that I can. And um that was just awesome and like totally unexpected, not what I was planning on at all. Um, but yeah, it was just a beautiful blessing from the Lord and like direction for my life from what seemingly is like an awful thing. Like I hate addiction, I hate it more than any other thing sometimes. Like it is so dark and demonic and consuming. Um but like the Lord changed my entire life path by it, you know, and like He has grown me and my faith so much because of it. Um I don't wish addiction on anyone, but I wouldn't trade the growth. I wouldn't trade the sanctification that's in my life because of it. Um I wouldn't trade like the relationships with my siblings and with my family that is closer because of it. Um, and I'm lucky that like my siblings know the Lord, love the Lord, and that like they um, you know, were also seeking the Lord and everything, even though we dealt with like the addiction in different ways, kind of deal.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Can I point out a couple observations from that period um of you when you really landed and started to get rooted here?

Why Addiction Feels Demonic

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Because you you you did the institute, which for listeners don't know what that is, it's a program here that's a residential program at Snubbard where you're learning leadership, ministry leadership, um theological training. It's a really cool program. I I love it. I'm I'm I'm very proud of that that program. I'm proud of Element, I'm proud of the Institute. They kind of work together.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Um but a a couple thoughts. One, I think this is an observation. Having dealt with a lot of addiction, um, not in my life, I've by God's grace, I've never had to, but um, but dealing with so many people in our community, and I think it's it it looks a lot like you know, when you're reading in the New Testament and you see people that are demon possessed, and Jesus will deal with these people. I think there's a lot of parallels. You said something a while ago, you said I think it's demonic. Yeah. You said I think addiction's demonic. And I've had people say to me, we don't see demon possession the way it was in the New Testament. And and I d and we don't, that's true. When you read these stories of people that are being ravaged by this in internal possession of demons. But if you look around at how many people, how addiction has impacted our culture, I think if Jesus came back today, some of his some of his best work would be among the the the addiction community. And you know, me and Jeby were talking the other day with somebody, it might have been on an episode, or you're you're driving home from from uh a day of camp and it's the summer, and you have a late night and you're leaving camp at two in the morning. Yeah. That's not uncommon. Do you see people walking on the road every single night?

SPEAKER_05 55:48

Up to like five, ten people walking on the road.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Yeah, like from here to your house, or you'll pass multiple people, and it's like they're like vampires or zombies, or and they're just walking enslaved to addiction. And I think there's a there's some so I haven't I haven't unpacked this in my mind, but there's a similarity to the those people that are uh possessed. You know, like the you'll have people come to Jesus, one man brings his son, and he's like, I can't do anything with him. He can't this demon throw him in the fire or throw him and try to drown him. Yeah. And people with in addiction, you're like, they're killing themselves. They don't seem to care. I think there's a lot of similarity. I do think it's demonic. I think it's very demonic. But second thing that I wanted to observe, uh point out that I've observed from your life is um you continued to, I feel like what happened is you continued to carry that burden and stay engaged. Yeah, but you did it from a safe distance. And I think one of the hurdles is people feel like if I don't give myself to this the way you had been, then I'm abandoning this person. And it that degree of separation, I watched you start to live your life. Like I told I told uh I think on the break, we took a break a while ago, and I mentioned to JB, I was like, Cassie's got a literal sparkle in her eye. There was a point where you didn't have it, like where it I that waned, and that's when I got concerned for you. I was like, okay, this is wearing her down. She's a thousand miles away, yeah, and this is impacting her family. But the Lord started to restore that to you. And I think um, I think that's significant. I watched your life sort of go through this up, then down, then kind of the Lord pull you out of that. And I think that's something that's important for me to just point out as an observation. I watched this firsthand and I saw the Lord do this work in you where you didn't stop caring about your mom and your dad. You didn't stop loving them. Yeah, you didn't stop being committed to them coming out of this, but you you recognized your limitations and you didn't let because there was a point where they were pulling on your mom's pulling on you. Yeah, you know, and you you had to work through that. The guilt of, am I saying no to her? Am I not? Should I go home? And and you did, you worked through it, you know, and the Lord used that.

SPEAKER_04 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Um, and I think that's important because what happens next is you end up here full time. We offer you a a job that's a literal career path kind of job. And and that's because we saw leadership potential in you that's only grown. It's stronger now than it was then, even. And so talk a little bit about then once you were here full time. This this story has taken some really cool turns.

SPEAKER_06 58:35

It has.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

I like to get into that.

SPEAKER_06 58:37

Yeah. Um,

Sober Hope Through Church Community

SPEAKER_06 58:38

yeah, the story has taken cool turns. Um, for sure. Uh, my mom has been sober for the past year and a half now, um, which is awesome, which is from the Lord. Um, and I think the difference really this time is my parents are in community. They are active in their local church in a way where before it was isolation, it was deal with it our own on our own. It was, we'll just go to a meeting for a month and it'll be fixed. Like it was this idea of like grin and bear it and just like you know, get it done instead of like, no, I can't do this without the Lord, instead of like a full submission, and then being like, I can't do this without the Lord, and I also need a community around me to catch me.

SPEAKER_05 59:26

When it first kind of came out, was it still kind of like hidden from the church type of thing?

SPEAKER_06 59:31

Like we did the yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it all of it kind of fell at a time where my uh my church was falling apart too. So it was like a one thing after another, you know. Um, my dad stepped away from being an elder because of stuff with like the head pastor that was bad, and then my parents were kind of in limbo of like figuring out where to go kind of deal. But then when all of that was going on, it was like, you know, easier to retreat at that point and be like, I don't want to do church because of this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

A year and a half sober, a year and a half sober. And it would you say what what role has her, is your mom's commitment to the Lord played in that? And just like how much is that has that been her like freedom in Christ and growing in her relationship with the Lord?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:24

Yeah, um, I would say the entire role of that. Um I would say that like she's done rehab before, she's done inpatient, she's done outpatient, she's done different like counseling sessions and groups, but I would say like the difference this time is like fully submitting it to the Lord and the recognition of like this is sin. It's not a disease. Um, a lot of times in the addiction community, you're told it's a disease, and like that makes you feel bad for a person, that makes you pity a person. Instead of it being recognized as sin, is it's a choice that that person is making. And there's more of a um, more of a consequence to that sin that's realized.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:13

That that's a really good point. Cause I also think people I've heard people say, well, addiction runs in my family. Well, addiction and like making it seem like I can't help it. But it's like, no, it is a choice. And yeah, that is true that maybe addiction is does run in your family, but it's like you're still choosing to live that way.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:31

My mind, I would say the same way that people are pre-disposed to like different sins in their life, like addictions like that, of like, okay, alcohol or same sex attraction, same sex attraction, medication drugs, because that's how it happened for my mom. It was um surgeries. My mom actually has a mother who's an alcoholic, um, who was an alcoholic and like growing up, everything. She hated alcohol, she never touched it. Um, but she had a bunch of surgeries close together, was given high prescription pain pills. Um Dang, our system. The system I hate it a lot. That's the problem. Too many of those more than what you need. And then my mom having all that uh undealt with like trauma from being in a household with addiction, divorced parents, back and forth that kept getting back together and kept getting, you know, like she had all these things that were like not submitted to the Lord, not dealt with. And then the drug that she started taking physically, oh, my shoulder hurts from this surgery. Now it's like, oh, but also when I take this drug, I don't think about these emotions. I don't think about like this past. It's like a blocker for that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Yeah, the the idea of predispositions, I think, is is helpful because and it's controversial. People I've I've I mean, I think people are predisposed to to just like you have spiritual strengths and spiritual giftings, you know, you have I I just know that if you're born into sin with the sin nature, it fleshes itself out differently. And I think there's a lot that goes into that. It can be the circumstances around a person's life, like what you're describing with your mom. Um but at the end of the day for the child of God, everything you do in rebellion to God's plan for your life, which the scripture tells us this is the will of God for you, your sanctification.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

So the Bible tells us in 1 Thessalonians, in 2 Thessalonians, or 1 Thessalonians 5, 1 Thessalonians a couple places.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

God's will is that you be sanctified. God's will is that you live a life of prayer. He's like, here's the will of God for you. Rejoice in everything, pray without ceasing, pursue holiness, you know. It's it's really simple. When we stop doing that, it's kind of like have you ever had your notice, like have you ever been in your car and you realize my car is trying to pull one way. It's either because you've got a low tire or something's wrong with your alignment.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

Our predispositions are that when I go into coast mode, what does it pull me towards, right? And I know everyone, uh people have that. That's a real thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

But you don't like it's a choice to stay focused on pursuing Christ and to rejoice in everything, to pray without ceasing. And I think it's important for people to understand until your mom took responsibility for those things, she didn't get freedom. And and part of taking responsibility is surrendering it to the Lord. And part of that was, I think your codependency with that savior complex, her codependency was, Cassie's doing it for me. And it's so, yeah, it's like this perfect storm of, and I think what's important for hearers today of this episode is not just are you somebody that deals with addiction and you're struggling with it and you've got a natural disposition towards it. It's are you enabling somebody? Are you trying to figure out how to love them well? I think there's a lot to be learned from your story that will inspire and encourage people because when when you say that, when I say that, I think people just have a predisposition. I think there's two mistakes that some people put too much emphasis on that. Yeah. And I had a pastor last summer say, I don't agree with that. Once you're a Christian, I don't agree with that. I don't think, and he was talking specifically about same-sex attraction. He's like, I reject that anybody's ever born and then would have that desire and it'd be a natural desire. I'm like, well, you need to like, I don't know, man, what to say to that. Like, that doesn't make sense to me because you need to sit across the table from someone whose life has been personally impacted by this, but they live in victory over it. And it's a it's a slippery slope of arrogance. You know, there's this biblical principle that when you start to boast in yourself or be prideful or condescending, it's a slippery slope until you end up in a place you don't. want to go.

unknown 1:06:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

And there's a lot of humility in recognizing, you know, for you and for your mom, recognizing only Christ is gonna only the power of of Jesus in my life can bring me out of this. And you recognizing Yeah I can help. But ultimately ultimately she's gonna have to turn to the Lord. And I that was another part of what you you wrestled through. I've I've got to just point her to Jesus.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:22

Yeah. And it Every time I was going home, I was like, I would dread it when I knew my mom was probably going to be high or um or she wasn't high but she was in bed because she was going through withdrawals and just like throwing up and sick from trying not to take drugs while we were home for Christmas or Thanksgiving and I just had to like be like I don't want to be here but Lord like let me have one good gospel conversation with my mom in this four days or whatever it is. And like that's what I'm here to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

Like I think that kind of takes me back to one time uh Kilby either said this to me or said this on the podcast. I don't know. But she said she struggles sometimes working in Africa. You want to bring them a physical need because they're emaciated or they're starving or they don't have somewhere to live but she was like it's something that her and Greg have had to work through is like the most the best thing we can do for these people is bring them like the gospel is bring them eternal salvation. And so that kind of reminds me of you. It's like I'm sure you had that desire and that urge to bring your mom a physical need and help her physically and get her out of this rut. But ultimately you can't do that. Right. And like it is like ultimately bringing her the gospel is the most powerful saving work you could do is have those conversations with her and then let the Lord work through that. Yeah. But yeah I think that's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

Yeah.

A Book For Families Of Addicts

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

What uh last thing you want to talk about the book? Yeah a little bit you should because people love resources. Yeah. And I don't ever like to just throw book names out. But when something's really been effective I like to share it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:00

Yeah um this book's called Divine Intervention. No uh no sponsored ads all that um it's uh Hope and help for families of addicts by Mark E. Shaw um and it's like specifically written to uh two people that are in the situation that I'm in um that are in different situations like father to son um those kinds of things and it kind of breaks it down in like sections of like what to do when someone's not repentant and unwilling and in their addiction what to do when someone's willing and repentant and what the Lord wants you to learn in all of it is how it like ends the book. Sean Clark gave this to me like a million years ago and it sat on my shelf for way too long and once I read it I was like man like I should have read that three years ago. Could have been helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

That's good. And for people that are so counseling is one of those things that um is very controversial. People have strong opinions and for those of you that are real critical of counseling and counselors I would just say this guy Mark Shaw um this will this will matter to people he's a neuthetic counselor and so in other words that that just means he's it's very biblically based all of the counseling which what what we hear come through in your story. So it's good resource. Yeah. Cassie Boudreaux I love you and so does our family and so does the whole Snowbird community and uh I'm thankful. Thankful that we had a conversation in the office a couple months ago and we're like we gotta do this. Yeah. But I did want to do it closer to summer. Yeah um seems like our we get an uptick in in volume uh or the the amount of interaction we have people in the summer and and that's that's on us.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:54

Could I say one more thing? Absolutely

Hope That Holds If Relapse Happens

SPEAKER_06 1:09:57

just to emphasize that like I'm so glad my mom is doing well right now. But at the end of the day if she goes back into drug addiction tomorrow like my hope's not in that and separating my hope from being in how my mom is doing to my hope being in the Lord, my hope being steadfast and constant is like the biggest change in my life and like actually meaning that and living that out instead of just saying like oh yeah my hope is in the Lord at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

That's really like your expectation rather than put an expectation on her sobriety you put it on Christ to be good no matter what. And then if she fails falters falls it doesn't it doesn't change your hope. Man that's good.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:42

That's good. Yeah. I think that'll be helpful for listeners too.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:46

Yeah reality check hopefully because I think it's easy to listen to a story of someone like that oh they're good now or they're doing well now and be like oh well that's not me that's not where I'm at right now like this addict in my life there is no light at the end of the tunnel like kind of deal. And just going to okay even if there is no light ever like what's my hope in and what's the trajectory of my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

That's good.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:11

Yeah sweet awesome thank you Cassia thanks a lot that you're come on thank you guys for having me nerve wracking but awesome thanks for listening to No Sanity Required.

Closing And Finding Snowbird Resources

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Please take a moment to subscribe and leave a rating it really helps. Visit us at swooutfitters.com to see all of our programming and resources. And we'll see you next week on No Sanity Required.