This episode of Lincoln Absence Advisor focuses on a leave type that is becoming much more common – paternity leave. We are joined by three dads who reflect on their recent experiences and what they’ve learned about the importance and impact of this leave. Together, we’ll explore how employees can build a plan of action for leave, including discussing work issues with their manager and deciding whether to take intermittent or overlapping leaves with their partners, as well as how to coordinate different leave types such as paid time off; family and medical leave act (FMLA); and company paternity leave. Listen in and see how paternity leave, when done well, can not only help parents bond with their newborn, but can also build employee morale and engagement.
© 2022 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved. LCN-4768894-060122
This episode of Lincoln Absence Advisor focuses on a leave type that is becoming much more common – paternity leave. We are joined by three dads who reflect on their recent experiences and what they’ve learned about the importance and impact of this leave. Together, we’ll explore how employees can build a plan of action for leave, including discussing work issues with their manager and deciding whether to take intermittent or overlapping leaves with their partners, as well as how to coordinate different leave types such as paid time off; family and medical leave act (FMLA); and company paternity leave. Listen in and see how paternity leave, when done well, can not only help parents bond with their newborn, but can also build employee morale and engagement.
© 2022 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved. LCN-4768894-060122
Hi everyone. This is Karen Batson Marketing Manager at Lincoln Financial Group. In today's episode of Lincoln Absence Advisor I'm joined by three dads from Lincoln, Sean Hutchinson, VP of workplace solutions marketing, Nate Schoedel, account manager and Joe Mcovern, VP of pricing, discuss their views on paternity leave. We dive into what they knew before they took leave, as well as reflect on what they know now. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining the podcast. You haven't been on the show yet. So welcome. Welcome. Welcome.
Nate Schoedel:Thanks so much for having us, Karen.
Sean Hutchinson:Thank you very much.
Joe McGovern:Thanks, Karen. Excited to be here.
Karen Batson:I'm so glad. So we're here to talk about paternity leave your experience with it before we dive into specific questions you each mind introducing yourselves and what you do here at Lincoln and maybe even how you might be connected to leave and disability.
Nate Schoedel:Sure, I'll jump in. My name is Nate Schoedel. I am the Assistant Vice President of regional account management. So my responsibilities include overseeing our client delivery in the 1,000 to 5,000 employer segment space, definitely connected to all things leave in what I do. We're out in the forefront talking to a lot of our broker and client partners about the evolution of of company leaves paid leave. So something that's very near and dear to my heart.
Sean Hutchinson:I can jump in Sean Hutchinson, Vice President of workplace Solutions Marketing. So in my role, I have responsibility for all marketing strategies for both the retirement and the group benefits space and leave and disability is a part of our portfolio? So really thinking through what is that thought leadership? How are we positioning our products? And how are we really driving the usage of these important products?
Joe McGovern:I'll go last. Joe McGovern, I am vice president of group protection pricing within workplace solutions. I work with leave products pretty closely on the data side. I am an actuary. So we're looking at how often people are taking leave and and when they're taking it how long they are out for. It's pretty interesting being on the other side of the of the fence on this one, though.
Karen Batson:Well, what is each of your paternity leave experiences if you don't mind? So we kind of know where you guys are coming from in this conversation?
Nate Schoedel:Sure. I'll I'll start it's Nate. We had my wife and I had our second child in August on August 27. So we had a baby girl Westland. So this was my first time under Lincoln being able to take the parental leave actually, my my first go around those with an employer that I missed the the extension of the parental leave by about 30 days, I was excited to have the time on this one. So I took really mine in two different segments. I took five weeks at the beginning of right after birth, to stay at home with my wife and I and then came back to work for a period of time and then took another five weeks, my daughter started having a little bit of minor health complications have a lot of doctor's appointments and things like that. So the first the second five weeks was really kind of running around to different doctors getting some various tests, and then making sure my four year old wasn't tearing the house apart when we were doing such things.
Sean Hutchinson:So Sean , I have two experiences with paternity leave the first one July of 2018 with my first daughter and the second in February 2021 with my second daughter, so I have taken you know, with our first daughter, she was in the NICU for a little while. So it was about three to four weeks of maternity leave, and my second daughter in February of 2021. Thankfully, everything was okay, so I took about two to three weeks of paternity leave.
Karen Batson:One pre pandemic, one post pandemic, must've been some differences there too.
Sean Hutchinson:Without a doubt.
Karen Batson:Joe how about you.
Joe McGovern:This is my first time taking parental leave paternity leave my daughter, first child was born in January, named Nora and my wife took the last 20 weeks not at Lincoln, but took 20 weeks with her employer on leave, and I'm stacking with her. So I'm going to take my leave starting when she goes back to work, which gives us a lot of time of you know, parent being home with her and gets us out of a bit of a pinch because it's so hard to find childcare right now.
Karen Batson:So difficult. I know so many parents looking. So curious before, you know going on paternity leave your first times, how much did you know about your paternity leave options? And what was your experience like learning about what you had available to you?
Nate Schoedel:Yeah, I would say, if I look back at my first daughter, I had at the time two weeks available to me. So I was pretty painfully aware as I said, I missed the cut off for about 30 days for a significant extension of time. So I was looking at the calendar quite frequently. So you know, given my role, too. We talked about this a lot. This has probably been the biggest conversation we've had over the five, six years with a lot of our partners. I was very aware of it. Getting to experience the extended leave at Lincoln was definitely I mean it's it eases a lot of the burden and a lot of this stress off of you that you have as a, whether it's a new parent or a new child entering the fold are always bringing their own challenges to it. So I had known a lot about it. But I would say the experience was much better, like just that time off than I even anticipated it could be it was, it was really nice to get things settled at home.
Sean Hutchinson:You know, the interesting thing on my side is I had to do a lot of self service and learning because by the time I had both of my kids, I was not in the group benefits business, I wasn't surrounded by all of these professionals that have like years and years of knowledge about, you know, what this looks like and how to take it and get that advice. I was on the retirement side. So that gave me the opportunity, it was really talking to a lot of peers around paternity leave and trying to understand it. Also doing some self serve education, our HR business partner was really, really helpful in sitting down and taking the time to talk with me about what my options were. So not being in the group benefit space, I think it just led for me to do a little bit more self serve and education. And thankfully, we had some great resources at Lincoln to help me through that.
Karen Batson:Which is probably a lot of people's experiences, right? As we're working with employers, we do have that benefit that we know, but you have the more common experience of self service knowledge and what kind of resources you're going to need.
Sean Hutchinson:So true.
Karen Batson:Joe how about you?
Joe McGovern:I've had, you know, a good number of employees go out on paternity or maternity leave over the last couple of years. So I was pretty familiar with what the benefit was different ways that I've seen it been used, but I actually didn't know all the steps that I had to go through to get the leave set up and get going. So that was kind of an interesting experience. I used a lot of the resources on the internet and also leveraged my HR partner who helped me kind of walk through the walk through the steps.
Karen Batson:Do you find that reading resources is more helpful than the community of people around you, HR, teammates, managers? Or is it some combination? Just curious where what you would lean on the most to understand that questions to any of you?
Sean Hutchinson:I'll tell you my side, it's definitely peers and having the conversation around it. I mean, you know, we talk a lot about that self service education. And then also partnering that with personalized support and putting my marketing hat on here, as I think about like, I lean way more on personalized support, and be able to have that one on one conversation to make it a little bit more personalized. I mean, we can read and read and read. But in reality, if you talk it out, and you get some some feedback, I found such better control of of my options and understanding of what my next move should be.
Nate Schoedel:Yeah, Sean, I couldn't agree more. I would say typically in my life I'm a phone-a-friend type of person anyway. So if I can talk through something opposed to reading something, I just always find it more beneficial. And the HR team here was phenomenal. Like my HR business partner kind of walked me through it. And it was a great conversation. Because not only did we talk about the upcoming leave and what I needed to do to initiate but it's it was a nice way to talk about like how my wife was feeling and how we're doing at home. So she did a great job of putting a personal touch on it as well. And then just having you know, similar to Joe's comment, we've had a number of team members utilize both maternity and paternity benefits to chat through them just to say like, Hey, how did it work? Anything I should be aware of it was just great to be able to have those resources and those conversations,
Joe McGovern:I'd say definitely talking with folks and getting a sense for what worked well for people, what didn't work well for people. That's what you get through conversations that you might not get through something that's written down, because you're basically I mean, you're a lot of times you're asking people Hey, what should I know about that's not already written down? So having that like personal conversation is can be really helpful.
Karen Batson:And that relies back to culture, the culture of the company, you're in re are you allowing those conversations to take place, you want to make sure it's open, and there's dialogue happening at all levels. So it's great that you all have that experience and for our listeners, how important that is, as you go out for parental leave. Now a question for you and you kind of touched upon this you are a person who's taken paternity leave twice with two different experiences two different time lengths. Can you dive in a little bit more on that and how you compare the two experiences?
Nate Schoedel:Yeah, absolutely. So I would say both experiences I was in a position to have extremely supportive managers I think that is a crucial part you know, in terms of just feeling comfortable with taking the time putting a plan in place with my oldest daughter it was she was born December 1, so the extended leave kicked in January 1. So I get back to the 30 days Not that I'm bitter anymore.
Karen Batson:I count three times Nate.
Nate Schoedel:but yeah, it was it was a really a great experience but at times I would say the first time was a little bit more challenging just because you know I did stack some PTO after the leave and got about three and a half four weeks off which was great but my wife during the first pregnancy at suffered some significant postpartum depression so trying to balance the the returning to work making sure that everything's okay with for being a first time father and you luckily, my daughter was very healthy. And we kind of worked through the the next steps with my wife. But on the second, having the extended leave, knowing that there was a potential for another round of my life going through postpartum depression, it just took that anxiety off of us. And then we were a little bit more prepared for second pregnancy as well. But what it really allowed us to do so we had a perfect storm, I would say, with the second pregnancy is it was in the pandemic. So resources were thin to begin with, we were actually moving into a new home. And then my, my daughter, like I said, got diagnosed with failure to thrive. So I don't know, looking back, if we could have navigated the pregnancy as well, with this two week leave that we had initially, first, the 10 week leave provided by Lincoln, because it just allowed us that time to get settled in the house, get the doctor's appointments. My wife fortunately, didn't have postpartum depression on the second one, it was a very different pregnancy. But I would say the difference is, is just going into it just that that peace of mind, whether you use it all or not just knowing that that time is there, it's just so valuable to have, because you can just plan knowing that you have if you don't need it, that's great, but it's there to take and I think that was kind of the anxiety or the stress being lifted off your shoulders going into it knowing that the times there.
Karen Batson:Yeah. Well, that's a good lead in for my next question, which I was gonna direct you, Sean, you didn't end up using all of your paternity leave time. But did it make a difference, knowing you had that option?
Sean Hutchinson:Without a doubt. I mean, knowing that the option was there was amazing, because I had also had really supportive managers going through it, and we could take it in intermittent fashion. So you know, I could come back, we could start to work. And then I could step back out again, if I needed to. And similar to Nate, you know, our first pregnancy was a difficult one, our daughter came a month early, so we had a short NICU stay. Thankfully, she was great. And quite honestly, we learned so much from NICU nurses around how to be able to like, learn from cues from babies, like it was truly a blessing in disguise. But you know, and that first one, we also didn't, we've never had a kid before. So like, we have no idea, the cues and how to be able to manage the baby and understand. And so just having that paternity leave, so we could team up, you know, with with, you know, she was fortunate enough to have a terrific leave with her employer. So we could team up try to understand the right cadence, the cues from the baby, and you know, really be able to settle in. And thankfully, after that NICU stay, actually, my wife did have some complications, where she went back into it was readmitted. And it was just, you know, daddy daughter for the first like week and a half of you know, going to appointments and really trying to learn those cues on my own. But kind of bringing this back to that leave and your question, I think, from the first it was so helpful, because we had a lot of time to take, and I could do it at an intermittent level. And, you know, I did about four weeks, maybe a little bit a little bit more. And at that point, we were settled, and we had the ability to, you know, thankfully, our first was really, really good. And we were able to learn those cues. So I was able to go back, alright, but just knowing that I had that ability to come back to it, if you know, things would take a turn. Or if we wanted to be able to spend more time, I just felt like we were pretty balanced at the time. So I could go back.
Karen Batson:We talk about flexibility, so much on the podcast that comes up when we talk about leave so much in the workplace. And it sounds like that, in particular, it provides that option, you have options, and you have the flexibility within your workplace.
Sean Hutchinson:You just so appreciate that's there. And you have that flexibility. Because, you know, I've worked at Lincoln for for quite a while both of my children were through Lincoln, and I just appreciate that aspect. So much of having that flexibility. And that support. It makes me a more productive employee and loyal employee overall.
Karen Batson:Now, Joe, you mentioned you know, you guys had a plan for stacking leave to get the most coverage. So what was your conversation like when you're trying to plan how do I use this paternity leave? As your as you're about to go on paternity leave right now?
Joe McGovern:Yes. Couple days actually. So it was conversation with my wife, we were you know, we were talking about do we want to take the leave together do we want to try and you know, take a few weeks at the beginning and then a few weeks at the end. And we're going through that process, we were simultaneously trying to line up childcare applying to every daycare center within a 50 mile radius. And with COVID it's just been really hard to find childcare, a lot of places have closed down a lot of places aren't at full capacity. And so we were just on tons of wait lists. So we decided to try and maximize the amount of coverage we can get in order to give us more time to find to find childcare and it actually worked out we were able to get some childcare starting when when I go back to work at the end of my paternity leave. So definitely having the ability to kind of shift when I was taking the leave was extremely helpful for for my wife and I.
Karen Batson:Sean, Nate any other perspectives when it comes to having that conversation before taking paternity leave what kind of things you are considering when talking with your significant others?
Nate Schoedel:Yeah, I would say, you know, my situation is a little different, my wife is a stay at home mom. So a lot of ours was just kind of the logistical planning, right, you know, we were moving into a new home trying to align, you know, construction during the pandemic probably wasn't the best thing we've ever done. But you know, so just trying to align the timing with when the move is going to take place. But then I go back to the flexibility that we talked about, because we did have to pivot a bit with our daughter, just to make sure we can make the doctor's appointments, I would say, like, our plans probably changed a bit during the course of my daughter, when my daughter had about two and a half, three months as a result of some of the complications that she was having. But you know, we knew that we were going to, I knew I was going to break it up from from the start, I just, you know, 10 weeks to me, just seemed like I was gonna probably drive my wife crazy. And she's probably gonna need a little bit of a break. So I, I think, after being married for over 12 years, that five weeks probably like the shelf life for her to be home with me at one time. So we knew we're gonna break it out. But yeah, our plans did change a little bit. But the flexibility is so nice to be able to pivot and adjust for the situation.
Sean Hutchinson:Ours was school, especially on the first, you know, we needed to be able to make sure we had that date. And we had daycare to begin, because both my wife and I both work full time. So we needed to really take that time and back into, you know, when were we available to get into school, I think with my second it was a little bit different, because you know, she's a pandemic baby. And we all started working from home. And so I think I ended up, you know, from a planning standpoint, knew I'd be working down here in the basement. And if I needed a break, if I needed to help, you know, I could just schedule some time on the calendar, take some hours and jump upstairs and be able to help with my second to give my wife a break. And so that planning during the pandemic, one was a little bit more, you know, different. I mean, thankfully, we landed in a really good school, when we moved out of the city as well. And we had that lined up for my second. And so those were the dates that we really just started to structure it.
Karen Batson:It's funny how things are shifted, because of the pandemic, just how different the world is. And making those choices.
Sean Hutchinson:Some stuff is easier. Some stuff is harder. Yeah.
Karen Batson:100% 100%. So, I believe, Joe, Sean, you said your wives had their own leave that they were taking, when you're looking at your program versus their program? What kind of considerations do you have? Or even what their experience was? them trying to balance both maternity and bonding and going back to work?
Joe McGovern:Yeah, I mean, for me, Karen, definitely, if I could have donated my leave to my wife, I would have, I think the paternity leave is amazing opportunity to spend a lot of time with my daughter and get to know her and become a better parent. It's, it's really incredible. But I just, you know what, what the mother goes through is, and my wife had a challenging delivery as well. There's, there's both like the bonding aspect of it. But then there's like the physical aspect of it. She wasn't really physically ready to start bonding with the baby until like halfway through her leave. And so I definitely wish like and she had quite a bit of time, but I definitely wish that she would add even more time than she did just spend spend with the baby. And then also, I'd say, for me, it's it's paternity leave. It's relatively simple. It's 10 weeks, it's it is what it is, but with her, she's trying to, to, you know, think through a really complicated leave stacking situation where she's like, Okay, I have STD. I have FMLA I have this paid maternity leave, like, you know, we're not we don't live in the state of Massachusetts anymore, so don't have to worry about the Mass It gets really complicated really, really quickly. I didn't really appreciate that before this, but I definitely appreciate it now.
Karen Batson:Sean, how about you any perspective of what your wife went through?
Sean Hutchinson:Yeah, I'm just kind of not like Ditto. Same thing. dI mean, the the difficulty of balancing all the types that she had, and it is funny, it's something Joe had said, It's so true, like, and I talked to my wife about as well, some friends, like, as soon as her maternity leave was up, she was like, geez, we just got started. I feel like we just started to like, get into a groove. And boom, you're on to the next chapter of going back to work in school. And, you know, her her employer. It wasn't short. It was it was quite a generous leave. But it's just, you know, that physical mending that that goes through from a from my wife's perspective, to be able to get back into shape, and then really just understanding the ability, you know, the cues of the baby and getting on the normal cadence of things just came so quick.
Karen Batson:Well, now that you're, you've experienced paternity leave or about to experience paternity leave versus before even having kids. How's your views changed?
Nate Schoedel:I think first and foremost is it gives you I know Sean and Joe touched on it probably gives you a greater appreciation for what a new mom goes through, right? Because you're getting that front seat view of you know, I just I can't tell you how many times I just remember sitting back being amazed, you know, my wife going through a C section and like a week or two weeks post surgery, you know, doing all these things with a baby. And you know, I'm sitting here like wide, I tried to figure out like, which tab goes where on the diaper and it just came so natural to her. So I think gives you a greater appreciation for that. I also think to it, it really builds relationships in the culture with your co workers, because part of the leave process, you know, I had a conversation with my, my manager, and we talked about, you know, what kind of time I was going to take and what the timeline looked like, and you know, what projects I was working on or what things I need support with, and you start to network with people to provide your support and coverage. And those conversations turn personal quickly opposed to like, you know, things that happen with our kids, or hey, this, this happened for me when I had a baby. And if your baby's crying this this, try this, this is great, like, so I think it was I think it was a unique perspective, just to see how willing co workers are and quite frankly, how excited they are for you to cover and do whatever you need to do. So from that aspect, I think that's probably the one thing I didn't foresee is just how many relationships I built even closer than before. Because then after the baby's born, ask for pictures and text me and see how things were going. So I thought that was pretty neat overall, but I mean, just the value of of that time off is is amazing, I think it's as a father, you're just you just want to have that time you want to be able to be there for your wife and help them recover. And then but also like bond with your with your daughter or your son. So I just think overall, it's it's so valuable to have.
Karen Batson:Any other changes in perspective?
Joe McGovern:I'll say that before my daughter was born. And before I started thinking about needing to take care of her, I definitely did not value paternity leave very highly as a benefit on all those surveys, I would say anymore, but now that like I'm going through it, like I look back and I was so naive, like this is such a valuable benefit for people going through what is like one of the most challenging things you're ever going to go through in your life. And it's just, it's a great thing for an employer to offer to employees.
Sean Hutchinson:I feel the same way, honestly, just being on the other side. And not being involved in group benefits every day like I am now just didn't really value it. And I think it's so important, at least it was for us when it came to like a team approach like my both my wife and I being able to really learn the baby and understand and really grow with them and also to help her and it's just the flexibility that that it provides to be able to make sure your home gets settled. And you know, you can come back to work in a productive way. I think it's so valuable. And even with my teammates, you know, over the past two years, we've had a huge baby boom, in the marketing department, there were so many folks that had babies and all of us who lived it stepped up and was like, Look, this is such an important thing, take the time, we will take on your projects, you can come back into work and you know, ease back in there was just such a collaborative effort there because we kind of all lived it together. Still are in the sense with other folks having having babies, but we've been living it for the past five, six years.
Karen Batson:Last question for you all. So our listeners are employers, decision makers, in different companies, HR benefit professionals, what would be one bit of advice or notes that you'd want them to hear about paternity leave?
Nate Schoedel:Yeah, I would say work with your leadership team to get them comfortable with the process, what it looks like, and be supportive, because I think that management level really sets the tone of what your experience looks like. I noted in both of my scenarios, I had an extremely supportive manager who not only just walked me through it, but helped me go through and divide up my responsibilities and provide coverage for them and make sure I was in make sure I was in a good spot. And I know Sean had mentioned this a couple of times about the productivity it does pay dividends because I would say you know whether you use a week or 10 weeks you're using it usually out of necessity from a parental leave like your whether it's you know, in Joe's case, looking for childcare, in my case, we had some some health issues with our daughter at three months old, being able to just step away and take care and get your house in good order really does lend itself well for when you come back to work, you are more productive like because I'm comparing and contrasting the shorter levers to longer leave, I would definitely say there's probably times on my first leave or you know, when I returned to work, I might have been a little bit distracted and probably didn't come back with a full level of productivity as I did with my second because of that time off. So I would say just understand that when people are taking it, it's they're utilizing it for good reason. And then also to just that manager support is absolutely crucial to set that culture and tone across the organization.
Sean Hutchinson:My thought from an employer promoted it. If you have it promote it, like let everyone know that it exists and what it can do for you and encourage that time because you know, like we've said we will come back more productive as a result of it. And like if you have to search for information and it's hard to find or you don't have that personal support, I think you might not take advantage of that benefit that's there that's going to make you come back and beat more productive. So I think the the education and communication around it could be so key to be able to achieve that, that benefit.
Joe McGovern:Yeah, I would echo what Sean and Nate have said, I think the benefit itself is going to make better fathers and better fathers are going to make better employees down the line. So I think it is long term. You know, there's long term benefits to offering this to employees and removing some of the stigma, I think associated with fathers going out on leave and really, from the top down, championing this benefit and encouraging employees to take it. I think that will go a long ways.
Karen Batson:All good points. Thank you all so much for the convo. I appreciate your time and joining us.
Sean Hutchinson:Thanks.
Nate Schoedel:Absolutely. Thanks.
Joe McGovern:Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Karen.
Karen Batson:Thank you all for listening today. And of course, thank you to our guests who joined us. We'd love to hear back from you what you think of the Lincoln Absence Advisor series or an episode, you can tell us by sharing an episode reaching out to your Lincoln benefits professional or following us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Disclosures:The information contained in this podcast is for general use and is not a substitute for the advice of an attorney or your human resource professional. Lincoln Financial Group is the marketing name for Lincoln National Corporation and its affiliates. Affiliates are separately responsible for their own financial and contractual obligations.