With heightened attention, many employers have watched employees balance more responsibilities of family and work. In 2020, an estimated 80 million people left the office and started working at home, and a quarter of a million people took their elderly parents out of nursing homes and assisted living because of fears of COVID-19.
These shifts in responsibility have put a stronger lens on caregiving, a topic already affecting the workplace. In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Glenn Pransky, a physician and internationally-recognized researcher in work and health and Annie Jantz, product lead for Lincoln’s leave management product to define the multiple caveats of caregiving and what employers should be focused to help take care of their employee caregivers
Links to sources referenced in this episode.
AM-LAATB-AUD002 02/24 Z01 LCN-6420655-022224
© 2024 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved.
With heightened attention, many employers have watched employees balance more responsibilities of family and work. In 2020, an estimated 80 million people left the office and started working at home, and a quarter of a million people took their elderly parents out of nursing homes and assisted living because of fears of COVID-19.
These shifts in responsibility have put a stronger lens on caregiving, a topic already affecting the workplace. In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Glenn Pransky, a physician and internationally-recognized researcher in work and health and Annie Jantz, product lead for Lincoln’s leave management product to define the multiple caveats of caregiving and what employers should be focused to help take care of their employee caregivers
Links to sources referenced in this episode.
AM-LAATB-AUD002 02/24 Z01 LCN-6420655-022224
© 2024 Lincoln National Corporation. All rights reserved.
Lincoln Absence Adviser is back and we couldn't be more excited about our first episode. Caregiving has been a big topic of conversation due to the heightened effects of caregiving needs in 2020. But what many don't fully understand is this has been an employee issue for a while and employers are becoming more and more aware of it. We had such a robust and comprehensive conversation on the caregiving topic that we actually needed two episodes to share the insights from our guests, Dr. Glenn, Pransky a physician and internationally recognized researcher in work in health and Annie Jantz product lead for Lincoln's leave management product. In this episode, or part one of the conversation, we had a thoughtful discussion on the definition of caregiving, but more importantly, the various perspectives we all need to take. And the lenses you may need to consider when looking at your employee caregivers. Welcome!
Annie Jantz:Hi, glad to be here.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Hello.
Karen Batson:Glad you guys could join us. So today we're here to talk about caregiving and I feel like it's a broad term that a lot of people are talking about in a lot of different ways. So today we're going to just really focus in on what is the definition of caregiving what's its impact? What should employers be considering as their responsibility? But before we dive in, I thought I'd ask, you know, we all have our own caregiving experiences and situations we've gone through that come to mind when we say caregiving, and I was curious if you could share any stories that you guys have gone through that are examples of it from your perspective.
Annie Jantz:Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. Everybody has at least some time in their life where they have been a caregiver or they will be a caregiver. For myself, so I have two children obviously as a mother, I've had to care for my young children. One of my children, my daughter has diabetes. She has some learning disabilities. So there was a lot more involved with that. A lot more being pulled away from work, you know, just, just a lot more responsibility, a lot of things that we had to do or that meetings we had to attend, you know, just different things like that. So there was just a lot going on. And then, you know, now as I look like, especially this past year, my husband and I, our parents are older and so they're still living on their own. They can do that, which is great, but we do have additional responsibilities with them, just helping them with day-to-day things. Sometimes it's errands. Sometimes it's fixing things around the house. Sometimes it's something that happens and they just need help. Um, and so, you know, that's been additional, that's come up over the last several years. And this past year, I think has been really unique because it's brought up even more situations that I think probably a lot of people have run into where it goes beyond just those typical things that you think of as being a caregiver. It's even that emotional support that people have run into, you know, for my mother-in-law, who lost her husband. And now she's been alone this past year, trying to help her through that process, or even my children who are older dealing with being alone, being away from friends, not being able to go to school. My daughter had graduated in our living room. It's things like that, that I think you can't anticipate. And we weren't really expecting, has really created more stress and draw away from work.
Karen Batson:That's a lot. That's good example, Dr. Pransky how about you?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Yeah, those are really good examples. And, um, I also had a similar experience with my oldest daughter who had some disabilities and required after-school tutoring and some extra stuff. And she did really well, but you know, it all worked when everything was in place and everybody followed the schedule, but throw in a snow day or somebody's sick or they canceled school. And my wife and I who were both full-time workers would be looking at our schedule and it was a choice of either canceling her clients or my patients and nobody was going to be happy. And that was really stressful. And, uh, somehow we got through it, but you know, I, I did use up a lot more flexible time off days. The issue for me now is my mom. Who's 95, but living at home and she has wonderful aides who take care of her. I was used to going down there to North Carolina every month to see her take care of stuff, keep the house fixed up. I can't do that anymore in the COVID era. So it's stressful. I'm having to rely on her aides, neighbors, people coming in, food delivery, all these things that I'm coordinating remotely. And it's sort of an ongoing stress and concern that is really heightened by the COVID era. So as you said, this is really a, a different time. And I think even though I might be spending the same amount of time caregiving for my mom, it is more stressful.
Annie Jantz:Absolutely.
Karen Batson:Now how closely you guys are tied to this subject in your own careers have, have these experiences made you look at that a little bit differently or brought a different perspective to you.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Oh yeah, absolutely! Caregiving situations are really complex. They can become unpredictable and I've learned that one size doesn't fit all. And it's so important for us caregivers to keep adapting and to also ask for help the biggest mistakes I've made are thinking I'm going to solve all this by myself. And as my oldest daughter reminded me, there was no worse tutor available than you, But when I got help, she made so much more progress.
Annie Jantz:I agree. I think that is a big part of it, right. Is asking for help. And that can be really hard to do. And especially at work, it can be a little scary, but I think if you give people the opportunity to understand they do, but yeah, that is definitely a big takeaway advocating for yourself a little bit.
Karen Batson:You know, I was thinking about these questions and to start our conversation today. And the situation that popped up to my mind was actually when I was younger and my parents were dealing with their parents and had somewhat older kids, but still dependents. And unfortunately, you know, my grandparents all got sick in a very consecutive order. And from outside seeing them be the caregiver, it was never a question of, okay, I gotta do this or I gotta do this. It was just, how do I do this? And I think that's a really interesting perspective for our conversation today. It's as a caregiver, it's just, how, how am I going to do this? How am I going to ask for help? What resources are available to me? How am I going to be flexible in those situations? And I just think of that point of view when I'm working on marketing and those sorts of elements when we're talking about caregiving, because this conversation has grown a bit, I think what do you believe has heightened the attention for the employer to understand caregiving a little bit more, especially since going through last year.
Annie Jantz:So I think for employers, there's definitely been, as you've said, there's just been more focused on this. It's definitely a growing topic and I've seen a lot of employers expanding what they're offering. They're really trying to delve into this topic and provide solutions for employees. I think COVID has definitely just amplified everything. It's just like takes everything and just grows the intensity. And so I think there's been more people that have been dealing with caregiving responsibilities or the, I guess, growing caregiving responsibilities where they didn't maybe have that before. And so there's an impact on work and productivity. And so it we're seeing employers trying to expand what they're offering, maybe covering different relationships, offering more benefits, providing different leave that they can give to the employee to take that time or having flexible work arrangements. It's definitely highlighted the issue quite a bit.
Karen Batson:Dr. Pransky what about from your point of view?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Karen, I look at the data on the shifts that have occurred in this country and it's huge in terms of impact on caregiving and caregivers. So you have 80 million people who basically left the office and started working at home like us. And about half of them took on new caregiving because their kids were at home and their daycares were closed. And you know, even now more than a year into this pandemic, most of these people are still working at home. And the vast majority of these children are not back in school or daycare on a full-time normal basis. The other side of the coin is more eldercare. There's an estimate that over the pandemic about a quarter million people took their elderly parents out of nursing homes and assisted living centers because of fears of COVID and move them home. But at the same time, there are fewer home care workers, virtually all day programs for seniors closed because of fears of transmitting COVID. And so all of this adds up to a lot more people doing caregiving. And for those people doing caregiving a lot more caregiving with a lot less help. And we know that many people, especially women are saying, I can't sustain this. And so employers need to pay attention to this because they're going to lose these people from the workforce. If we can't help them find solutions.
Karen Batson:And to your point, there's just so, so much affecting this. So let's dive into the definition. Let's start with, I want to talk about kind of the various aspects on how we can define caregiving, but let's start with perspective. How does an employee view caregiving?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Well, I think employees used to define caregiving the same way that employers did, it's staying at home to take care of a sick child, or maybe bringing an elderly parent to a doctor's appointment, or maybe helping a spouse recover from a serious injury. But now people are realizing that there's a bigger picture, like caring for kids who are perfectly healthy, but stuck at home during work hours, or maybe going, shopping for a parent who can't get out because they're afraid of contracting COVID.
Annie Jantz:Yeah, I agree. I definitely think that that is how the employee views it. I think that it's changed a little bit too, because even for myself as an employee, I think when I first had my kids and even with my daughter, when I first you know she started school and having trouble. I don't necessarily think I would have said, Oh, I'm a caregiver. And here's these things I'm dealing with. You know, you suffer in silence a little bit when you're going through it, but I think there's a lot more education around that today. And then relationships are so much broader. And I think that's where we're seeing a big impact as well, especially from employees who are saying, look, family's not defined the same for everyone. Right. And some of it depends on who you're talking to. And I think that has been a big thing as well for employees and employers is looking at how you are looking at a family or what defines a family, for sure that's been a big impact.
Karen Batson:Do we think now employers definition health of caregiving is different than employees and maybe what that might be?
Annie Jantz:I think it depends on the employer. Honestly. I think that there's been a lot of headway on relationships within families. So I think that definitely is changing. We see that with a lot of the different state plans that are coming out, even some company leaves that they are definitely expanding what that family looks like. And I think employers are learning more about what it means to be a caregiver. And how do you define that? And really what does that mean? So even like when I mentioned having older kids who are dealing with the stress of the pandemic, now it may be situational and it may not last that long. Hopefully we're done with COVID and everything kind of goes back to normal. But during that time, when you have even older children living at home who are maybe suffering from some depression or anxiety or things that are going on, you're taking on some of those roles as a caregiver, trying to make sure that you're helping them with their mental health, getting them the treatment they need, which pulls you away. I think employers are looking at the broader definition. I still think there's a lot of work to do there though, too.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:I agree. I think you've summarized it really well, that employers are catching up to this quickly. And I see this as a function, not so much of state laws that are expanding a little bit, that we'll talk about later, but just the reality that employers are seeing that people are really struggling, trying to work in the Zoomiverse while at the same time their kids are crying in the background and they are hearing from their employees. Yes. Like to take this call, but I'm totally unavailable. Then my husband's away and I've got the two kids at home. And so that's getting some employers to think we need to step in and help out. This is not workable.
Karen Batson:Now I was reading articles about what an employee might view as caregiving versus not where there might be activities and employees doing that doesn't really fall under caregiving. I didn't know if you guys had any perspective on that?
Annie Jantz:So I definitely think there's an issue. And again, it just kind of comes back to how much are you involved in? What does that really look like? I mean, anything you're doing for somebody that takes you away, it could be considered a caregiving activity. And there was a recent survey that was done. And you know, it really highlighted that the employer, they thought maybe 24% of the employers thought that their employee was being pulled away from work because of caregiving duties and things that they needed. It was influencing their work. But when you look at the employee side, it was about 80% of the employees said, no, you know, these are really pulling me away from my work. So again, I think it goes back to, I view this as my responsibility to care for my family, whatever that means. And it's influencing what I do day to day at work, how I work, how much I can focus at work. And so that's where it really comes down to taking a step back for the employer and looking at your employees, what do they need, you know, asking them, you know, what are you really facing? What are you dealing with on a regular basis and helping them to understand, because there is a lot that's pulled away and, and sometimes it's difficult. I think if you haven't been through some of those situations for people to understand that that, that might be a caregiving activity, um, like attending IEP meetings at a school for your child or staying home when they're sick or different things like that, depending on everyone's situation.
Karen Batson:With the growth of paid family leave, we talk about benefits, covering some aspects of caregiving. But in particular, to your point earlier, we see an expanded definition of family member most recently in Connecticut. What does this tell us from an even higher level perspective?
Annie Jantz:The definition of caregivers, if you're looking at it from like the FMLA, I mean, it's pretty broad, but it's always also been the same for a long time. The definition of caregiver taking care of somebody who's sick. Who's, you're not able to work while they're going through some type of treatment or going to appointments. Um, you're just really caring for a sick family member. A lot of the States have expanded the definition of family. So we see that broadening quite a bit. So it might include grandparents, you know, maybe your spouse's parents and then Connecticut has been by far the most liberal so far. So they're really broadening relationships to be not just blood relation. It could be an affinity that you have. So they're really looking at it expanded, which is kind of the whole trend. Right? I think that all that means is we'll probably see more changes going forward. Like you could see something at the federal level. I don't know, you know, when or if that'll happen, but I know there's always been a lot of talk about that in terms of leave though, for caregiving duties. So you think about FMLA it's to take care of somebody who's sick that may not apply. If you have a child who has a disability and you're going to the school to talk about their educational plan, like that may not apply in the same setting. It just depends. So those are some of the things that are still out there. Some state leaves have that. So they look at that as some type of a caregiving activity. Other leaves may not support that. So I think there'll be a shift in that as well at some point.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:So Annie, do you think that there'll be more States coming on board with, I think you've laid out two interesting paths. One is to broaden the definition of who related to you or affiliated with you is covered. And the other is to broaden the definition of covered activities. So used to be immediate family and only medical. But now I hear you saying this is getting broader.
Annie Jantz:Yeah, I think it is. And I mean, it may be a while before you see something happen, like at the federal level or some of the States, but there are unpaid state leave laws that protect certain activities that are related to something that's not necessarily medical. And so I think as we continue to look at caregiver and all of the conversations today are about how do we support an employee who is a caregiver? And I don't know that there's a lot of answers out there right now. There are some things that are happening, but I think there's still a lot of questions about that. And so I think this will drive some of the changes that will come.
Karen Batson:Now, we've, we've touched upon a, kind of, a lot of different avenues. Um, what caregiving can be eldercare childcare, dealing with both, even women in the workforce leaving because of a lot of these caregiving needs. So I'm thinking let's dive into each one of those and just have a little bit of a conversation. So let's start with childcare and I'm actually gonna read, cause I'm going to provide a stat. Um, the lack of affordable childcare options often leaves parents with no choice, but to take time off from work to care for their children before COVID about 65% of parents work schedules were affected by childcare challenges an average of 7.5 times over a six month period. And of course, as we've mentioned, this has grown after what we've gone through in 2020. Now looking forward, how can an employer view childcare needs of their employees? Are their solutions potentially different than elder care? What's the focus there?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Karen as you read that statistic, I was thinking how happy I would have been if my work was only affected 7.5 times over a six month period. That that seems to be an underestimate, but I'm sure it's nothing compared to what's going on right now with closed childcare, closed schools and people having to work at home. And I think even if they have a babysitter that will come into the house, having mom right there is still challenging for kids to keep those boundaries about work and not work time. So a lot of employees are really eager to get back to some type of normality, even they're still going to be working at home. And I think there are some solutions for children and for older people for elder care that are the same. And it goes back to some of what we've mentioned a little bit asking for help bringing in experts, technology. We'll talk about a little bit community daycare in-home services may be sharing responsibility among a few families, but I think your question's a good one, Karen, because I think the types of solutions that you might look at for children are at least on a high level view, similar to what you might look at for parents.
Annie Jantz:Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think that's true. I also hope and think it's probably good news that once we get past COVID kids will be able to get back to school. I know parents will be happy about that and daycares can open. And, but as a parent, you know, you'll always need that flexibility because kids always get sick. I mean, that's just how it works. Um, or something comes up and you know, or school's closed. And the other thing is with remote learning, that's been going on, it's hard to say what the future for school will look like in some cases, or, you know, even now we've had a lot of cold weather, they've had remote learning days, even though we have schools open. And so then again, you have parents trying to figure out if you've been back in the office now, how do you then go back to remote learning again? So I think moving forward, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. And I think there will still be a need for flexibility and maybe some creative solutions, you know, like I think the community daycare that Dr Pransky mentioned is really interesting. I know we talked about that before. And so I think it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds over the next couple of years and the same for elder care. I think that it'll go back to maybe somewhat normal, but new normal I think is kind of on the horizon.
Karen Batson:Now continuing with eldercare. Here's another stat for you. The U.S. Census Bureau projected the over 65 age group will grow from 55 million in 2020 to more than 70 million in 2030. And according to the U.S. Department of health and human services, those turning 65 today have a good chance about 70% chance of needing support for the remainder of their life. What is your first reaction to this statistic when it comes to caregiving and employers leave policy?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Well, I think that this is going to be a challenging issue going forward. It's especially difficult in the United States where we rely much more on informal care at home than many other countries. So in 2018 we had about 40 million Americans who were providing informal, unpaid elderly care. And most of it was in somebody else's home. But as we know now, more and more it's in their own home. A lot of hours doing this on average, it was 34 hours a week. And a quarter of the people surveyed were spending over 40 hours a week, delivering care. So with children, afraid of their elderly parents getting COVID where possible many people move their parents in with them. And it's a lot of people. This is a about 15% of long-term nursing home and assisted living residents were moved most of them in the first three or four months of last year. And that greatly increased their elder care responsibility. So the concern employees have is that they feel that employers are much more focused on childcare issues than elder care issues. And these are tough issues. So for example, think about if my mom was in a nursing home, uh, the doctors and the nurses and the adjustments in their medication, all that would happen there automatically, but living at home in the community, somebody needs to take her to every doctor's visit to evaluate her health, to arrange for a nurse, to come in, to see her once or twice a week. So if I was living with her and had her at home, this would greatly increase my need for episodic care to be available when all these things happen during the day.
Annie Jantz:I think that's a good point. And one thing that you said really stood out to me, that employees feel like the focus is on childcare. I really think that's true. And, you know, even for myself thinking about when my kids were little and I needed time, which was stressful, but I felt like maybe I could explain it and make some of it is how you work, where you're working all of that too. But now looking at the situation I'm in with my parents and my husband's mother, and there have been times that we've had to leave or go do something that's happened during the day, like unexpectedly, right? You're just getting pulled away. It feels very different. It's harder for some reason. And I think maybe it goes back to feeling like everybody understands the childcare, not everybody's there yet with elder care and every situation there is different as well. So I agree with you there. I think that it's, it's just more, it's difficult to me. It seems like a more difficult solution or way to come up with something that works for the employee. It's just a challenge. And I think there's a lot of room there for support for employees that are dealing with this.
Karen Batson:So what I'm hearing from both of you is they're not necessarily exactly the same, but they're both equally weighted in regards to the need. Am I right in thinking that?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Yeah. I think it really depends upon the individual situation. In mid February, the New York Times published this series of articles that followed three mothers in the U.S. through the pandemic, talking about their struggles to try to stay employed and care for their children. And these were at times heartbreaking stories. And I'm sure they're not unusual. Similar stories could have been written about people trying to work and at the same time care for elders, but with kids, there's this added dimension of homeschooling and also they're kids, they don't understand why you can't always be available, but there is that added stress of kids being stuck at home. I mean, I think of my oldest daughter and she benefited so much from being around peers who had similar issues, as well as teachers that had skills that we parents didn't have to help her with her different style of learning. I can't imagine what that would have been like having all of us stuck at home together, trying to accomplish this.
Annie Jantz:I agree completely with that too. And it, it definitely depends on individual perspective and, and I'm not sure if my daughter was still young, very young and in school that I would have been able to keep working. I've thought about that quite a bit. I, it, would've been very hard to support her in school and work full-time from home. Um, probably just wouldn't have worked out. So yeah, I think it's challenging. Um, the one thing that I find interesting is, you know, there was another, an article I was reading and they had a survey and it was talking about people who have been going through this caregiving process. Um, and especially for elder care, right. And 72% of them felt like they would still have maybe additional caregiving responsibilities even post COVID, because they have just kind of grown to distrust some of the institutions, you know, where they've placed people. And, you know, I think that's very valid. My parents are not in a facility. My husband's mother is not either, but we did have, you know, our grandparents were in care. And I remember watching our parents go through this stress, always stress about how are they doing? How are they being cared for? Are they getting everything they need? You know, are people being good to them? Are they being kind to them, all of these different things. And COVID kind of brought that out. And a lot of them brought their parents home. And I think going forward, I don't know what that looks like. I think that that is going to be a challenge though, to get us back to a place where people feel comfortable and can give back a hundred percent right to, or at least whatever percentage that ends up being of, um, having someone take some of that care for them.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Annie, this is a really good point because people now have an opportunity to compare what nursing home care was like, including all the costs, the hassles, the worries. And now they're looking at having their parent or parents at home. So there's significant savings. There may be some loss of income for them, but at the same time, they've regained a sense of control and family. And I think some of them are starting to see the benefits of this. This is what I'm hearing. For example, I have a friend whose dad is widowed. He's had a stroke, but he really is capable of helping their son with his homework. He's a former engineer and he can get the grandson to sit down with him and really focus in ways that the parents can't. And we've kind of known about this since the 18 hundreds in this country, that sometimes the multi-generational thing worked out much better for adolescents than your parents trying to manage you. But as they do all of that math in their mind, balancing health and finances and all that, are there going to be people who say I'm going to leave the workforce temporarily and help my parents stay in my home. So I think for some positive reasons, as well as negative distrust reasons, there might be a new normal. So to bring it back to the employers, Ka ren, I'm wondering what the impact is going to be on employers. Because my sense is that those employees who are really willing to give 110% and take care of their parents at home are also people who give 110% in the workforce in the workplace. I mean, and so you don't want to lose t hem. So can employers help solve this in a way that they don't lose them totally.
Karen Batson:That's a great point. Now talking about leaving the workforce, another big conversation is women leaving the workforce, which we could do probably a whole episode about, but one question around this is what do you know about this issue today in regards to caregiving and that definition?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Huge issue, huge issue. So Annie, if I go back to that Harvard business school study in that survey, I think a third of the people they surveyed who were caregivers, they said, I've already in the past left a job because they didn't support my caregiving role. And right now, when we look at just in this past September, more than three quarters of a million women left the workforce, and that was four times as many, the number of men who left the workforce in the same month. And we know that the difference is not because employers preferentially laid off women versus men it's, most of them had a pressing responsibility at home and took a voluntary leave of absence or just quit. So that's because the caregiving issue is huge for women and much more impactful for women than men.
Annie Jantz:Yeah, it definitely is. This one is a really hard one for me to see. And, you know, I've been obviously reading a lot of different stories about this and different companies that are trying to help solve this issue. And I hope we do see some solutions here. It is a big issue for women. And even like I said earlier, you know, if my children were young, I don't know what would have happened. And that's difficult question, or even to think about, because it's not just about, you know, I mean, it'd be a great opportunity to stay home with your kids, all of that, but at the same time, financially, that's very difficult. And then for your own career, being able to continue to do something and move forward. So I think that it's a huge struggle. I think there needs to be something done. There needs to be more support for women and more flexibility. And whether that means, you know, it's different things, depending on who you are and where you're working in, what you're doing, right. There's all different types of jobs, different things going on, but that flexibility, if you can work different hours, if you have the opportunity to do that or sharing desks, sharing different things, um, opportunities are a hybrid between the two, but really getting back to having women back in the workforce. Because once you leave, it's harder to get back. That's the other thing you leave the workforce, it's just that much more difficult to go back.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Yes, and what we know from labor economics studies is that when you leave your education and skills become economically stale, I mean, you may be as sharp as ever, but the problem is, is that work and technology and progression and relationships in the workforce, all move ahead without you. And so the result is, is that when, when, when women leave and then come back in, we see a very significant drop in earnings. And in the traditional households of the 1950s, there was a cushion for that. But now with almost 40% of kids growing up in single parent households, this really has a huge impact on the working woman's kids, a single working woman's kids and their future and capabilities. So I think it's something that as a society we have to pay attention to, and I'm hoping employers will focus on this as well, because it's huge loss talent to have people fully un-engaged.
Annie Jantz:Agree completely. Yes. It's an important issue.
Karen Batson:How does this steer the direction of caregiving needs when it comes to like benefits and policies from the employer?
Annie Jantz:I just think it goes back to looking at what you can do, you know, looking at your organization, how flexible can you be? What can you offer? How can you make this work for your employees? Basically, if you have employees who have children who are trying to balance this or other caregiving responsibilities, what can you do in your policies that allow them that flexibility to take care of what they need, but still remain in the workforce. So I don't know that there's a solution that is across the board. I think that it really is going to come down to what works for the organization and for the employees.
Karen Batson:And one more for you guys talking about the sandwich generation, taking care of both childcare and elder care. A 2019 report by the National Alliance of Caregiving and Caring Across Generations said that sandwich caregivers spend the equivalent of a part time job, an average of 22 hours a week, providing help or caregiving support while also working. And this study was done before the escalation of 2020. Does the combination of elder care and childcare change our perspective on caregiving or even the possible solutions that employers might provide?
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Well, I think that survey's really important and my guess that it was 22 hours a week in 2019, and I'm sure it's over 30 hours a week now. And the other thing is that the ages of employees drawn into being sandwich generation has broadened. It's starting to affect a lot of millennials who find themselves stuck taking care of both ends of the age, spectrum. Annie, what's your thoughts about solutions for this kind of unique situation?
Annie Jantz:Yes. I think this is definitely a harder issue to address and having, um, an employee that is dealing with elder care and childcare. They obviously have a lot more on their plate that they're trying to work through. And so they may even exhaust all of their leave options, taking time off to care for both. And so as far as solutions, I think it's the same as everything else. Right? It requires that flexibility. Um, I don't know that there is a great answer to that because I don't think anybody's come up with it. I don't know that there is a solution that really helps support that employee through everything or allows more leave time. I think again, the employer has to look at what's possible and what flexibility they have. But I also think one of the things that is really important is getting resources to employees, like making sure they understand what they have available. And if there are EAP, which offers more than just the counseling, but they may have resources that they can go out and find you support groups or information on different conditions or you know, where to seek help. I think those are important for employees because there may be a way for them to find support for themselves to have maybe broaden their own community where they can rely on some individuals get some outside, help that way. So I think that is a way to go about it as well. Not all of it is going to be leave. You know, that's a big part of it is having that leave available to the employee, whether it's intermittent or consecutive period, but it's also those resources that the employee may find valuable.
Karen Batson:Lastly, one other aspect of caregiving, which when we talk about it in this realm, I don't hear come up, but it should be part of caregiving and that's, self-care, especially for these caregivers who are dealing with all of these aspects, what's your perspective on self care and that part of the definition?
Annie Jantz:It's a really important one. And I've heard it even said, you know, the caregiver is not just the person you're taking care of, but it's also yourself. You have to be taking care of you. So you're a caregiver of yourself and it's important because a lot of times you will put your health on the back burner. You know, you don't worry about yourself as much because you are very focused and worried about the person that needs your help. And we know that from studies, depression, mental illness, substance abuse, those things are higher risk, higher levels for people who are caregivers. There is a lot of stress involved in that and worry. And there's also stress on the person that you're caring for, because they're also worried about you and everything everybody's doing for them. So it's kind of like this whole mixed bag. So I think it's really important. They have that good support. And again, that's where an employer that can find a way to bring those to light to their employees, I think is important to focus on themselves, find a break, find a way to get some reprieve for a period of time.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:That's a very good point. And I think in general, people usually do find in these studies, negative physical and mental health impacts on caregivers. But when you dig into the data, there is a wide range of experience. And a lot depends upon whether the caregiving experience is stressful or creates a lot of conflicts or, and kind of distracts the person from taking care of themselves. Or sometimes it occurs in a supportive environment where the caregiver really enjoys the experience and really is able to accept and deal with the limitations of the person they're caring for. And when that can occur, often caregiving is a positive health experience for their caregiver. But I will say that the current situation that we're in now of more caregiving, less support, less backup resources, more financial strain, that's really tipping this balance in a negative direction.
Annie Jantz:Yeah, unfortunately. Yep. That's very true.
Karen Batson:And one last question on, on defining, I want to throw at you, how would you summarize the definition of caregiving knowing all of these aspects?
Annie Jantz:I mean, I guess it's still for me, it's that taking on that responsibility for another person? I mean, that really is what it boils down to for me and, you know, helping them with what they need.
Dr. Glenn Pransky:Yes. Responsibilities for another person. And from the employer perspective, you could add in that can unexpectedly interfere with work responsibilities and maybe even expectedly. And I think Annie, that goes back to your, your distinction between things that flexible leave would take care of versus caregiving challenges that are ongoing, that interfere with being able to do a job.
Annie Jantz:Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, I really liked that what you said, because some of it is expected, right? Like there's obviously always going to be things that don't come up, but I think a certain level of this should be expected. It's just a normal part of being alive and being a person you're going to have some caregiving.
Karen Batson:Thank you all for listening. Join us for episode two, where we continue this conversation on caregiving by discussing employer responsibilities when it comes to employee caregivers. We'll be diving into the effects of caregiving needs, paid leave strategies and learnings from 2020. In season two of Lincoln Absence Advisor, we will have two new episodes every month where we will discuss various topics around leave and disability. By subscribing to Lincoln Absence Adviser on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You'll get the latest episode as soon as it's available. Talk to you next time on Lincoln Absence Advisor.
Disclosures:The information contained in this podcast is for general use and is not a substitute for the advice of an attorney or your human resource professional. Lincoln Financial Group is the marketing name for Lincoln National corporation and its affiliates. Affiliates are separately responsible for their own financial and contractual obligations.