The Double Jeopardy Law in Marketing with Ethan Decker

Sponsored by CleverCat Marketing

What do toilet paper, jazz, and brand loyalty have in common? In this episode of Conversations with Rich Bennett, Ethan Decker reveals the surprising science behind how brands grow—and why small businesses struggle more than they think. From the Double Jeopardy Law to marketing myths that refuse to die, this is a must-listen for anyone who wants to build a brand that actually sticks.

Guest: Ethan Decker

Ethan Decker, Ph.D., is a brand strategist, marketing scientist, and founder of Applied Brand Science. With a background in urban ecology and complexity theory, Ethan brings a rare mix of scientific rigor and creative flair to the world of branding. He’s worked with global giants like Nike, Discovery Channel, and Gillette, helping them uncover what really drives customer behavior.

Main Topics:

·         Ethan Decker’s transition from urban ecologist to marketing scientist

·         The concept and implications of the Double Jeopardy Law in branding

·         Why small brands often struggle with loyalty and repeat purchases

·         Comm

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One Song Benefit Concert for the Ed Lally Foundat

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Chapters

• 0:00 Celebrating 10 Years of Conversations with Rich Bennett
• 1:37 Meet Ethan Decker: From Ecologist to Brand Scientist
• 4:37 Music, Musicals, and Marketing
• 7:37 Falling into Market Research and Big Brand Work
• 11:37 What Is Brand Science?
• 15:37 The Double Jeopardy Law Explained
• 21:37 The Loyalty Myth: What Small Brands Get Wrong
• 27:37 Why People Forget Your Brand
• 31:37 Charmin, Bears, and the Power of Simple Branding
• 36:37 How Small Businesses Can Win at Branding
• 43:37 QR Codes, T-Shirts, and Creative Promotion Hacks
• 47:37 The Attribution Challenge in Marketing
• 53:37 The Power and Pitfalls of Discounts and Coupons
• 55:37 About Applied Brand Science and Ethan’s Services

Transcript

Rich & Wendy 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning ten this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we shared laughs, tears and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next ten years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios. Harford County Living presents conversations with Rich Bennett. 

Today, I'm going to get kind. 

No, no, no. The truth is. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
Welcome to Conversations with Rich Bennett. Today, we have a special guest who's bridging the gap between science and creativity in the world of marketing. Ethan Dekker With 20 years of experience in brand strategy, advertising and market research. Ethan has worked with some of the biggest brands out there, and I'm going to let him tell you which brands. He's presented internationally at SSW and TEDx. But what makes Ethan truly unique is his background. Before marketing, he was an urban ecologist with a Ph.D. in complexity theory. And we're going to dive into what brain science really is, how businesses can grow effectively, and what we can all learn from the way people interact with brains. You've all heard me talk about marketing and getting your brand out there a lot on this and this tag everything that that you can from Ethan. Take your notes because this is going to be a fun one. So how's it going, Ethan? 

Ethan Decker 2:05
It's pretty good, Rich. It's pretty subdued. 

Rich Bennett 2:08
I got to ask right away, what is an urban ecologist? 

Ethan Decker 2:13
Yeah, that's a funny one. 

I 

Rich Bennett 2:17
Okay? 

Ethan Decker 2:18
started, 

Rich Bennett 2:18
Mm hmm. 

Ethan Decker 2:19
I started actually studying, you know, culture and society. And I studied sociology when I was in college back in Ohio. But then, I don't know, I got the bug in graduate school to study ecosystems as another one of my my, my loves and. 

Rich Bennett 2:36
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 2:37
And then I fell in with the group that actually was looking at ecosystems of cities, urban ecosystems, and they're kind of two ways you can do it. One way is to like count the insects in a city. You know, so you're still. 

Rich Bennett 2:51
Huh? 

Ethan Decker 2:52
You're still doing well, Not all of them, but you do a survey and you look at, you know, the the the wildlife in a city. Mine way was a little different. It was what if we treat the city as if it's an ecosystem, including all the humans. Right. Including all the buildings. 

Rich Bennett 3:10
Right. 

Ethan Decker 3:11
It's like an integrated ecosystem in the same way that like a lake is an ecosystem. 

Rich Bennett 3:16
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 3:17
And you can kind of draw a boundary around the lake and and the shore and the input and the output and the creek and the stream that flows in and out of it. And then you can measure the lake and how much phosphorous is in it or how much nitrogen is 

Rich Bennett 3:31
Ooh. 

Ethan Decker 3:31
in. Right. And what kind of transformations happen when when stuff falls into the lake and then the algae blooms? 

Rich Bennett 3:39
Right. 

Ethan Decker 3:39
You can do the same thing with the city. It's just weird because it's us. And. And then you're studying the phosphorous that comes into a city or the carbon that comes into a city. 

Rich Bennett 3:50
Oh, yeah. 

Ethan Decker 3:51
And then the the carbon or phosphorus that comes out of a city through the sewage or through the the the ozone and the stuff that comes out of all the tailpipes of the cars in the city. So that's 

Rich Bennett 4:04
Wow. 

Ethan Decker 4:04
what I study. And I studied like how how cities work as ecosystems. 

Rich Bennett 4:09
So why didn't you stick with that and get into that field? 

Ethan Decker 4:12
I don't know. I think it was looking more and more mathematical and quantitative, and that was just not my job. 

Rich Bennett 4:20
Okay. Okay. So in that case, what made you decide to get into marketing? 

Ethan Decker 4:26
I kind of fell backwards into the marketing piece. I wasn't. I wasn't quite sure where to go next after studying ecosystems. And I had all these other things. I mean, I wrote musicals when I was young. 

Rich Bennett 4:40
Oh, come on. 

Ethan Decker 4:41
No, I did. I was a geek. I was a theater geek. 100%. 

Rich Bennett 4:44
Wow, that's awesome. I was a songwriter myself. When? 

Ethan Decker 4:47
Oh, nice. 

Rich Bennett 4:48
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 4:48
Nice. What's your instrument? 

Rich Bennett 4:50
I. I started off playing drums when I was five. Went from drums to keyboard to guitar to bass, and bass was probably my favorite. 

Ethan Decker 4:59
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 4:59
Nowadays? I quipped back, I'm sure my age now. So I quit playing bass back in 1986. 

Ethan Decker 5:06
Oh, man. 

Rich Bennett 5:07
Because it was just arthritis was sitting in. It was. 

Ethan Decker 5:10
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It takes a toll. 

Rich Bennett 5:12
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 5:12
Takes a toll. 

Rich Bennett 5:13
Jane instead. 

Ethan Decker 5:14
Hey, let me tell me if this is true or not. I just talked to a dude who's a bass player in a jazz band here up in Boulder, and he said, you know, if you got to pick an instrument, pick bass, because you can always get gigs. 

Rich Bennett 5:29
Yeah. Everybody's always looking for a bass player. 

Ethan Decker 5:31
There you go. 

Rich Bennett 5:33
And I mean, I got one. My kids got me one years ago for my birthday and Father's Day. So I need to pick it back up because my son's a hell of a guitar player. 

Ethan Decker 5:45
Oh, sweet. 

Rich Bennett 5:46
He can play any instrument. I always say he's Stevie Ray Vaughan reincarnated. He's that good on guitar. 

Ethan Decker 5:51
Nice. 

Rich Bennett 5:51
And I just I would just love to be able to jam with him. 

Ethan Decker 5:54
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 5:54
Yeah. He played with me for years. And 

Ethan Decker 5:57
That's 

Rich Bennett 5:57
we since 

Ethan Decker 5:57
cool. 

Rich Bennett 5:58
then retired from doing that. 

Ethan Decker 6:01
What a great 

Rich Bennett 6:01
He can't commit. And I'm just. Yeah, I can't carry all that equipment, man. 

Ethan Decker 6:05
connection. Great connection to have with your kid, though. 

Rich Bennett 6:08
Oh yeah. But that's one thing I've always I just something about the jazz players. Their play base. I've always been amazed by them. 

Ethan Decker 6:19
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:19
And 

Ethan Decker 6:20
There. 

Rich Bennett 6:20
that's something I would love to do. 

Ethan Decker 6:21
Their chops. Their skills are just incredible. 

Rich Bennett 6:25
Oh yeah. 

Ethan Decker 6:25
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:25
Because, yeah, I was I was playing in a rock band. I always played rock. But the play jazz. 

Ethan Decker 6:31
Yeah. Yeah. I never I never did play jazz. No, Mostly for me, it was either rock or folk or 

Rich Bennett 6:36
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 6:36
show tunes. 

Rich Bennett 6:38
Yeah, I 

Ethan Decker 6:38
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:39
could. Oh. I think that's a whole other conversation because I could get into I could talk music for hours. 

Ethan Decker 6:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 6:47
Words, everything. Especially you. We talk show tunes and everything. Of course. Andrew Lloyd Webber. One of the greatest. 

Ethan Decker 6:56
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 6:57
And. Oh, my. I remember. You know what? Never mind. Let's. Let's. Let's get back to it, because. Yeah, like I said, I. 

Ethan Decker 7:04
Next episode. Next episode? 

Rich Bennett 7:06
Yeah, exactly. 

Ethan Decker 7:07
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:07
Yeah, 

Ethan Decker 7:08
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:08
I just got I got to say this, though, when it comes to Phantom of the Opera. There's nobody better than Michael Crawford. Just say it. 

Ethan Decker 7:17
Fair. That is a. Is that fair? Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 7:20
See. All right. So you feel that it's backwards. 

Ethan Decker 7:22
Phil is. In a marketing and I fell there through through market research, which was really the gateway for me. Somehow I, you know, looking around for some stuff to do. I got connected with actually an old person from my alma mater who was running a little market research firm. And they were doing global qualitative quantitative market research for big brands like Intel and Unilever and degree and Axe Deodorant. And and I had this weird combo of doing qualitative research, you know, interviewing people or 

Rich Bennett 8:02
Right. 

Ethan Decker 8:02
running or running focus groups. I was able to do those things, but I also had these skills from quantitative for quantitative research, from my background in and ecology. So they they let me come on board and I traveled around the world, went to China and Japan and Russia and Germany. 

Rich Bennett 8:23
I'll. 

Ethan Decker 8:23
Doing market research for these big brands. And then from there, one of my clients tapped me and said, Hey, do you know any any brand strategists? And I said, No. And then he kind of punched me in the in the chest and said, Do you know any brand strategist is like, Oh, you mean me? Me? I don't know what brand strategy is. He said, Well, I think you'll be fine. So he took me on and I became a brand strategy guy at an ad agency, and from there I was stuck in adland for 15 years doing advertising and marketing for really, really big brands as well, you know, like. 

Rich Bennett 8:59
Right. 

Ethan Decker 9:00
Like Tide and gain detergent and Gillette and. 

Rich Bennett 9:07
Wow. 

Ethan Decker 9:07
Yeah. So a lot of big brands, Duracell batteries, Naked Juice was one of them. 

Rich Bennett 9:15
Wow. 

Ethan Decker 9:15
Kellogg's worked with Kellogg for a long time. So a lot of really cool, great big brands. And this is coming after also working with folks like Nike and folks like the Discovery Channel. We did a whole rebranding for the Discovery Channel 15 years ago. Help them go. It was a great project. That was really fun. Rich. The assignment was basically like, Look, we know our our shows are great. People love Man versus Wild. People love Shark Week. Come on. They go apeshit about Shark 

Rich Bennett 9:46
Yeah, 

Ethan Decker 9:46
Week. 

Rich Bennett 9:46
I know. Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 9:47
But then when they think of Discovery Channel, they think it's like PBS. 

Rich Bennett 9:52
Exactly here. 

Ethan Decker 9:52
Can you can you make our brand up to date with our shows? Can you make it as fun and exciting as Shark Week or as fun and exciting as dirty Jobs? Right. Mike 

Rich Bennett 10:05
God, I 

Ethan Decker 10:05
Rowe. 

Rich Bennett 10:05
miss that show. 

Ethan Decker 10:06
Oh, such a great show, Mike Ross. 

Rich Bennett 10:08
From here. 

Ethan Decker 10:09
Is he 

Rich Bennett 10:11
Overly. 

Ethan Decker 10:11
cool? 

Rich Bennett 10:11
I believe. 

Ethan Decker 10:12
All right. So that was such a cool assignment. And we ended up with this great idea and a great way to crack it, which was basically Discovery Channel needs to be the biggest fan of the world. They need to be. They need to just exude fandom like Steve Irwin. The 

Rich Bennett 10:31
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 10:31
the Australian dude is like, Crikey, look at this thing. Oh, it just stung me. Isn't that fantastic? You know, that's how he rolls and he. The end when he was literally, I think, stung to death. But man, his spirit, his joie de vive, as Mike Rowe might say, his his like passion, the brand needed to exude that. So we created this cool ass campaign and updated their logo and made it look like this is a brand that's just in love with the world. And the world is just awesome. Holy shit, Look at that. And they loved it. So we ran with that for a while. That was a good one. That was a great campaign. 

Rich Bennett 11:10
Look how big they are now. 

Ethan Decker 11:12
Yeah, they're doing great. They gobbled up so many networks and so many shows. Discovery is a monster. 

Rich Bennett 11:18
Oh, it is. 

Ethan Decker 11:19
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 11:20
So you're you got into that. I take it you're out of that now? You're out of marketing. 

Ethan Decker 11:26
Ish. I'm still in marketing, but I'm not in an ad agency anymore. 

Rich Bennett 11:31
Okay. Some just something about advertising that is. It hooks you. 

Ethan Decker 11:37
Yeah, it can. 

Rich Bennett 11:38
Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember when I was in radio, one of my favorite things to do is write and copy. 

Ethan Decker 11:43
Yeah. There you go. 

Rich Bennett 11:45
I missed that. So can you break down what brain science really means and how it applies to businesses in a practical way? 

Ethan Decker 11:55
Brand. Science is a completely made up thing that I made up, 

Rich Bennett 12:01
I 

Ethan Decker 12:01
but. 

Rich Bennett 12:01
figured as much. A okay. 

Ethan Decker 12:03
But. But. But. 

Rich Bennett 12:04
I like it. 

Ethan Decker 12:05
It's summarizes a lot of stuff that's out there that just doesn't have a home. And let me let me explain. A lot of people know the concept of data science. Data science is when you are Google and you look at billions of data points about what people. 

Rich Bennett 12:23
Right. 

Ethan Decker 12:24
And what they search on in their underwear from their own home and where they search it. Right. Are they on mobile? Are they at the store? And they're searching for a product while they're at the store, but they're going to buy it somewhere else. Like all that, thousands and billions of data points. That's data science where you start analyzing that brand science sometimes also maybe called marketing science is when you're looking for the laws, you're looking for the physics, the laws of physics, the laws of gravity of how brands work. Not, not because you got to analyze 3 billion data points and find out, you know, what what brand of toilet paper rich is most likely to buy. But instead, you're saying, what do all shoppers do? What do all brands have in common? What are the laws of physics, of brands? That's brand science. And then and then it turns out there is a physics of brands. There are universal laws. Most brands, most people who run brands, they bristle at that. They're like, Not me. My brand is different. My my category is different. Now it's different. In hunting, hunting's different. Hunters are different. It's like, no hunters are a lot like golfers. And there are a lot like people who buy mascara and they're a lot like people who read books. Like, they're these universals. And that's been the really cool thing of being a guy who used to do science. Who's now doing marketing is that there is a science to it. And and I get to bring that to people, but I bring it in a really fun way. I don't I don't I don't try to make it as dry as possible. I try and make it as interesting as possible. 

Rich Bennett 14:04
So you're the John Taffer of marketing. 

Ethan Decker 14:08
Okay, I'll take that. But who's Jon Taffer? 

Rich Bennett 14:11
You ever see Bar rescue or. 

Ethan Decker 14:14
Boris. Yeah, I know. I know. By rescue. Okay, Now I know you're talking about. 

Rich Bennett 14:17
Yeah. John Taffer because there's a science to it. A. 

Ethan Decker 14:20
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 14:21
Planes at all. And it's. I like this though, because. 

Ethan Decker 14:25
There you go. 

Rich Bennett 14:25
Yeah. With marketing 

and marketing has evolved over the years. 

Ethan Decker 14:31
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 14:32
Big time. And now you have the smart devices. 

Ethan Decker 14:35
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 14:36
Would you guys think of marketing for that as. 

Ethan Decker 14:38
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and most people who do marketing, they don't get into it with a background in training and marketing. They're just trying to run a damn company. 

Rich Bennett 14:46
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 14:47
You know, or they just they just joined a brand and they're just they're working for them and they're not trained in all this stuff. So it's like the folks that John Taffer helps, they're just they're just run in bars and they don't have degrees in bar management and know the history of of bar development and all the laws and science of bar operations. So that's why they need they need that outsider to come in and say, okay, we've seen a few hundred of these cases before or a few thousand of these cases before here. Here's what you got to know. 

Rich Bennett 15:19
He's amazing to. 

Ethan Decker 15:20
He's got. 

Rich Bennett 15:22
So what should brands actually focus on then to build long term success? 

Ethan Decker 15:27
All right. So here's one of the surprising laws of of brands. And it's pretty darn universal. Big brands tend to have more customers. Now, that's not super shocking. 

Rich Bennett 15:42
Right. 

Ethan Decker 15:43
But they also have higher loyalty in the sense of repeat purchasing or what's called a share of wallet. Like what? What proportion of your your wallet in that category goes to the brand? 

Rich Bennett 15:57
Right? 

Ethan Decker 15:57
So big car brand Ford. 

Rich Bennett 16:01
Mm hmm. 

Ethan Decker 16:01
Right. Ford is a huge car brand. They've got a lot of buyers and they have about 50% of people who buy. Ford will buy another Ford the next time they go shopping for 

Rich Bennett 16:13
Right. 

Ethan Decker 16:13
a new car. And 50%. That sounds terrible, but that's a pretty good loyalty rate. 

Rich Bennett 16:18
Good. 

Ethan Decker 16:19
Given how many brands are out there, like you could change to a Toyota or a Honda or a GMC. There are so many choices, but half the time people will repurchase a Ford. 

Rich Bennett 16:30
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 16:31
Now if you're a small brand like Mini Cooper. 

Rich Bennett 16:35
Mm hmm. 

Ethan Decker 16:36
Right. First of all, you have a lot less customers. Obviously, you're just a smaller brand here. 

Rich Bennett 16:43
Right. 

Ethan Decker 16:43
You have fewer stores, you have fewer models, and therefore you got fewer buyers. But here's the deal, Rich. A lot of people believe that Mini Cooper has this mad, loyal following and that when you're a Mini Cooper person, you're just categorically different than a Ford person or a Toyota person. Turns out over and over in every category, the small brands have lower loyalty and lower repeat purchase rates. 

So if you buy a mini and I don't know, I could see you in a mini. Yeah, I could see you in a. 

Rich Bennett 17:19
Oh, God, no. pickup. I like pickups, man. 

Ethan Decker 17:24
All right. Maybe 

Rich Bennett 17:24
I 

Ethan Decker 17:24
he 

Rich Bennett 17:24
just. 

Ethan Decker 17:24
doesn't make 

Rich Bennett 17:24
Give 

Ethan Decker 17:24
a pickup. 

Rich Bennett 17:25
me. Give me the old cars. 

Ethan Decker 17:27
Yeah. Yeah. F-150s. 

Rich Bennett 17:30
Although do I am surprised how big those minis are inside? 

Ethan Decker 17:33
They are cold. There they are. Surprisingly, I'm six one and I can fit in one 

Rich Bennett 17:37
So 

Ethan Decker 17:38
of. 

Rich Bennett 17:38
am I. 

Ethan Decker 17:38
Shocker. 

Rich Bennett 17:39
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 17:39
But here's the deal. Only about 

25% of people who buy a mini end up buying another, meaning next time they buy a car. So it has half the repeat purchase rate of Ford. And that that flies in the face of this mythical belief that there are these small brands out there with passionate, loyal fans. They tend not to exist. Even the ones that seem passionate. Like Mini Cooper, that's one. Or Alfa Romeo is another one where people like, Oh. 

Rich Bennett 18:14
I. 

Ethan Decker 18:15
They've got such great, passionate fans. Well, yeah, they have 12 passionate fans or two or 15 passionate fans. It's true. But the rest of them are like, Yeah, that was a nice Alfa Romeo, but next time I'm buying, I'm going to go back to BMW. 

Rich Bennett 18:31
Right. 

Ethan Decker 18:32
Which is a bigger brand. 

Rich Bennett 18:33
Doesn't make as many cars as you know. 

Ethan Decker 18:36
Right. Right. That's a big piece of the puzzle, is big brands often have bigger offerings. 

Rich Bennett 18:42
Right. 

Ethan Decker 18:42
They sell more stuff. You can buy what Toyota makes, kind of everything. They've got minivans. Pickup trucks. 

Rich Bennett 18:48
Pickup trucks. 

Ethan Decker 18:50
SUVs, of course. Sedans. They still make sedans, hatchbacks. 

Rich Bennett 18:55
Jack is for Dani. 

Ethan Decker 18:56
Coop's. 

Rich Bennett 18:56
Sedans anymore. 

Ethan Decker 18:57
Now they stopped. 

Rich Bennett 18:59
I think the only car they make is the Mustang, 

Ethan Decker 19:01
Yeah. Yeah. But that's, that's one of those laws that 

Rich Bennett 19:06
right? 

Ethan Decker 19:06
is pretty universal. And there's a name for it. It's called the Double Jeopardy Law. And that's its that small brands suffer twice. They're in jeopardy in two ways. They've got fewer buyers and they've got lower loyalty, fewer buyers and people that buy them less frequently. So it's a law. And if you think you're going to be some small sneaker brand or some small car brand or some small fishing brand, and you're going to have passionate buyers who buy you a ton, you're fooling yourself. 

Rich Bennett 19:39
Right. 

Ethan Decker 19:40
If you want a lot of repeat purchase, you got to be the biggest brand in the category. That's pretty much the way to do it. 

Rich Bennett 19:46
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 19:47
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 19:48
When it comes to. And now I'm going to think of, like, small businesses. 

Ethan Decker 19:53
Huh? 

Rich Bennett 19:53
What do you think? Some of the biggest mistakes they they make when it comes to marketing is if 

Ethan Decker 19:58
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 19:58
they even market first. 

Ethan Decker 19:59
Right, right, right. Well, here's here's how that plays out. Let's say you're a small business, you're a tax company, or you've got a bait and tackle shop or you're a deejay. 

Rich Bennett 20:11
Right. 

Ethan Decker 20:12
Right. And you think you're going to have just passionate, loyal people that buy you over and over again and come back over and over. If all you focus on is loyalty, you're not going to do great. In fact, you're probably going to suffer because the laws of brand physics tell you that small brands don't have a lot of repeat purchase, you know? And so what you need to do is acquire new buyers. You need to cast a bigger net because they're going to come back less frequently. So you should there's a there's another lie. It's a pernicious like it's like a zombie idea in marketing that it costs six times more to acquire a new customer than it does to retain a current customer. And that's a. 

Rich Bennett 21:02
Interesting. 

Ethan Decker 21:03
It's actually a myth. It's not true. 

Rich Bennett 21:05
Right. Okay. 

Ethan Decker 21:07
It usually costs just as much to retain someone as it does. 

Rich Bennett 21:10
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 21:10
To acquire someone and that the healthy thing to do is keep acquiring new people or always keep that pipeline going. 

Rich Bennett 21:17
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 21:18
So if you're a small bait and tackle shop, you constantly got to let people know you exist. You constantly got to bring in new folks. You're not. It's going to be really hard to maintain a good business just on repeat purchase. So let people know you exist. Remind them all the time that you exist and get the word out there because you need new customers. Everyone needs fresh meat. 

Rich Bennett 21:45
With that. And this is something I've always mentioned, and I was guilty of this, but and I'm talking strictly about small businesses right now. And the branding part. Do you think it's important that the owner puts their face out there? Especially if if it's a very small or even a solopreneur. Because, I mean, my personal belief is the way everything is changing at the years. People are going to fall in love with the person when they know the person and not the logo. 

Ethan Decker 22:21
The individual personal connection connection can be very powerful. Hundred percent. And for small companies, I'm a small company. I'm a small business. My company is called Applied Brand Science because that's what I do. I help you apply. 

Rich Bennett 22:37
Right. 

Ethan Decker 22:37
Brand science to your company, but most people just know me as Ethan. You know, they don't think of the the company name. So in that regard, you're right. Having a face, being the face of a company can be really, really good. It can also be really challenging. Like right now, Elon Musk is the face of Tesla and the face. 

Rich Bennett 23:01
Right. 

Ethan Decker 23:01
Twitter. Well X. 

Rich Bennett 23:04
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 23:04
And that cuts both ways. Some people love him. But a lot of people don't love him. And 

Rich Bennett 23:09
Right. 

Ethan Decker 23:10
so having a face associated with the company can be dicey. I think there was a similar turn with Papa John's. 

Rich Bennett 23:19
Mm hmm. 

Ethan Decker 23:20
The. John himself got into hot water and it became a problem. 

Rich Bennett 23:26
I didn't realize that. I was just wondering why you're not seeing him anymore. 

Ethan Decker 23:30
Yeah. Yeah. He got, he got axed. He got cut out because. 

Rich Bennett 23:34
Wow. 

Ethan Decker 23:35
Things became problematic. But as a small brand, I think it can often be really good to have your face as part of it. And because your spirit, your personality, it's deeply embedded in your company. 

Rich Bennett 23:48
Right. 

Ethan Decker 23:48
Small business owner. So I think of things like the the local attorneys, the injury attorneys. You know, call Frank Azar, the long arm of the law. 

Rich Bennett 23:59
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 24:00
And that can be really good. But also, I think it's important. This is a weird this is very not technical at all, but it's it's it actually comes out of the science. You got to be interesting. Because you 

Rich Bennett 24:14
Oh, 

Ethan Decker 24:14
got 

Rich Bennett 24:14
yeah. 

Ethan Decker 24:14
to be memorable. Because usually your biggest problem is people don't remember you at all. 

Rich Bennett 24:21
Right. 

Ethan Decker 24:21
As a small business, people don't know you exist. I mean, maybe if you're, like, the only bait and tackle shop in town, then, yeah, people know you exist and you're the one. I don't know why 

Rich Bennett 24:30
That. 

Ethan Decker 24:30
I'm picking bait into in that town. But then you got visitors or if you're on a creek, you got people coming through tourists. How are they going to know you exist? 

Rich Bennett 24:40
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 24:41
Or even if you're a coffee shop, you you're a local coffee shop. You're not Starbucks. You're competing with Starbucks. And you're competing with Nespresso at home and you want people to remember you exist because it's unlikely that everyone in the city even knows what you sell and that you're there on, you know, 16th Street. So. 

Rich Bennett 25:03
You think that's a problem with a lot of small businesses where they don't market outside of their area? 

Ethan Decker 25:10
I think it's I think they don't. 

Rich Bennett 25:13
Of area either way either. 

Ethan Decker 25:15
They just don't 

Rich Bennett 25:15
Right. 

Ethan Decker 25:15
market enough. Let's just say they don't market enough, whether it's in their precise area or it bleeds out a little bit beyond that area. They usually just don't market enough. 

Rich Bennett 25:27
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 25:27
Like if you if you have a business that has a delivery thing. 

Rich Bennett 25:32
Right. 

Ethan Decker 25:33
You get a truck. You are a fool if you don't wrap that truck in your branding. 

Rich Bennett 25:39
Oh, yeah. 

Ethan Decker 25:40
And make it obvious what it is and make it maybe even a little funny or quirky. 

Rich Bennett 25:45
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 25:46
Like I saw a truck here in Boulder recently. It said something like, We get poo. 

I mean, it's a it's a poop removal service. And they swing by your house if you've got a parcel of dogs. And they'll. They'll clean up the dog. Shit. But their truck is covered in poo jokes. Big, big letters too. So just like one on each side. There's no confusing that truck with anyone else. There's no confusing what it does. And it makes you laugh when you see it. 

Rich Bennett 26:22
It makes me laugh just hearing about 

Ethan Decker 26:23
Totally. 

Rich Bennett 26:24
it. 

Ethan Decker 26:26
Like that's really big and bold and kind of in-your-face. And it has to be because. 

Rich Bennett 26:31
It 

Ethan Decker 26:31
Most 

Rich Bennett 26:31
find. 

Ethan Decker 26:31
people don't know they exist. 

Rich Bennett 26:32
find. 

Ethan Decker 26:33
Most people most people don't even know they exist. 

Rich Bennett 26:35
It's a great tagline. Do. 

Ethan Decker 26:37
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 26:37
I would have that on the shirt. On my business. Shirt 

Ethan Decker 26:39
totally. 

Rich Bennett 26:39
of. 

Ethan Decker 26:41
Totally. It's. I love that. If you if you can come up with something interesting enough, the people want it on a shirt or hat, 

Rich Bennett 26:48
Yes. 

Ethan Decker 26:48
then you're on to something. And and most people don't. They want to be too precise. They want to have a brand story. They want to do something that's meaningful and detailed. And there's too much, too much detail. You know, make it clear, you know, because the other thing, Rich, like you said, 

people don't advertise enough because they assume everybody has already heard of them by now. 

Rich Bennett 27:13
Right. 

Ethan Decker 27:14
Oh, they already know about my coffee shop by now. They already know about my landscaping service by now. They already know about my bait and tackle shop. They already know about my tax attorney services. No, they don't. They don't. Even in a small town. Believe you me, there are a lot of people who have no clue about you. 

Rich Bennett 27:32
And the other thing that a lot of businesses don't realize, you know, like, yeah, I know about my tax my tax preparer. I use him all the time. But 

Ethan Decker 27:40
Right? 

Rich Bennett 27:41
if I see an ad for another tax preparer that catches my eye and I learn something. 

Ethan Decker 27:48
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 27:49
I'm leaving my tax preparer and going, I'm going to try this new one. 

Ethan Decker 27:53
Totally. 

Rich Bennett 27:54
And I don't think a lot of people understand that. 

Ethan Decker 27:57
Totally. No, they don't. 

Rich Bennett 27:59
I don't. Yeah, it just it it baffles me, and I've never understood that. 

Ethan Decker 28:05
Yep. Yep. 

Rich Bennett 28:06
But. 

Ethan Decker 28:06
Well, it's it's again, it's the assumption, the assumption that people already know about us. 

Rich Bennett 28:13
Mm. 

Ethan Decker 28:13
Because you know what? You think about your brand all damn day. 

Rich Bennett 28:18
Yeah, 

Ethan Decker 28:18
When you're a business owner and this rich, this also applies to the biggest brands I've ever worked with, like Gillette. You know, it's a global 

Rich Bennett 28:25
right. 

Ethan Decker 28:25
brand. The Gillette folks think. Breathe, eat and sleep. Gillette. I mean, of course they get their works to the bone, too. It's a big company. They pay them well, but they buy all their time. But but Gillette, people think about Gillette all damn day. You know who doesn't think about Gillette All damn day? Everyone else. 

Rich Bennett 28:47
Right. 

Ethan Decker 28:48
All of us, even the most devout Gillette users, even the most consistent Gillette people, the Gillette guy who's who's used Gillette since he was a little kid when his dad gave him his first razor. He uses Gillette all his life. He doesn't think about it as of all day. He barely thinks about it at all. And that's the biggest challenge I see with marketers, is you have to remember that nobody thinks about your brand as much as you do. 

Rich Bennett 29:17
Right. 

Ethan Decker 29:18
And then you have to behave that way. How do you connect with someone who doesn't think about your brand all day, who barely remembers which color your logo is? You know, like I ask people all the time, what toilet paper do you use? And half the time they don't remember. 

Rich Bennett 29:34
Wow. 

Ethan Decker 29:35
They're like, well, I've. 

Rich Bennett 29:36
I am picky when it comes to that. 

Ethan Decker 29:38
Oh, you know, you know your brand. What's your brand? 

Rich Bennett 29:41
Mine is Shaman. Super strong. 

Ethan Decker 29:42
Shaman. Oh, you even know the flavor. Strong. 

Rich Bennett 29:48
That. 

Ethan Decker 29:48
Some people some people like the Cinnamon Shaman. Some people like the super strong. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 29:52
That in the belly. Select the size. Select size to. 

Ethan Decker 29:55
Oh, dude. You listen to you. Okay. Shaman, Superstar, do you remember? And what's the. What's the logo for the shaman? 

Rich Bennett 30:01
It's the bare. 

Ethan Decker 30:02
There you go. What color is the super strong one? 

Rich Bennett 30:05
Red and white. 

Ethan Decker 30:06
Red Oak is a super strong is red and then super soft is the other color. 

Rich Bennett 30:12
The blue. 

Ethan Decker 30:12
Blue Dude, you are. You get an A. But here we go. He. So first of all, again, I've asked people around the world when I when I do my trainings, I do brand trainings, and I'd say over 50% of the people don't remember exactly what brand they use. Now, sometimes it's because they don't buy it. Their spouse buys it. But now here's the next question. Do you know where your toilet paper is manufactured? 

Rich Bennett 30:39
That? I do not know. 

Ethan Decker 30:40
Is it made in America or Canada? 

Or China. 

Rich Bennett 30:45
Toilet paper. I would I would say probably. Well, I wouldn't be surprised that it's made in either Canada or Mexico. 

Ethan Decker 30:52
All right, Here's another question. Do you know if Sharman supports any cause? 

Rich Bennett 30:59
I. I know they used to, but I'm not sure. 

Ethan Decker 31:03
Okay. Do you have have you seen any. 

Rich Bennett 31:06
Oh. 

Ethan Decker 31:07
Do you know which social media platform they're most active on, Twitter or Instagram? Do you know? 

Rich Bennett 31:14
No, I don't. 

Ethan Decker 31:14
Do you follow them on any social media? 

Rich Bennett 31:17
Now. 

Ethan Decker 31:17
Okay. Do you know they're 

Rich Bennett 31:19
I just love the TV commercials with the Bears. 

Ethan Decker 31:21
totally. Do you know who their CEO is? 

Rich Bennett 31:24
Now. 

Ethan Decker 31:25
All right. Do you know if they're if they're poisoning rivers. Where they're getting their pulp from? 

Rich Bennett 31:34
No. 

Ethan Decker 31:35
So. 

Rich Bennett 31:36
Damn, I never thought about that 

Ethan Decker 31:38
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 31:38
crap. 

Ethan Decker 31:38
right. Or do you do you know if they have do you know if they have any women on their board of directors or is it all men? 

Rich Bennett 31:46
I don't know. 

Ethan Decker 31:47
All right. You know, it's great. You don't have to know shit about any of this stuff. 

Rich Bennett 31:51
Right. 

Ethan Decker 31:51
You don't. All you need to know is you like it and you know where to find it and buy it. 

Rich Bennett 31:57
Right. Okay. 

Ethan Decker 31:58
But a brand will think that consumers think about all this stuff, but they don't. Right. We know very little about the products. We wipe our butts with every day. And that's fine. That's as it should be, 

Rich Bennett 32:16
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 32:16
right? 

Rich Bennett 32:17
Yeah. I never thought we would get all the conversation about wiping their ass. 

Ethan Decker 32:23
Oh, the places you'll go. 

Rich Bennett 32:26
But again, I mean, that's what I love about marketing and advertising. 

Ethan Decker 32:30
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 32:32
I mean, in all honesty, the biggest thing I remember about Sharman is Mr. Whipple. 

Ethan Decker 32:37
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 32:38
Don't squeeze. 

Ethan Decker 32:38
Squeeze the shaman. 

Rich Bennett 32:40
One of the greatest things of all time. 

Ethan Decker 32:44
It's a killer. 

Rich Bennett 32:45
What was the other one? Wonder Bread. 

Ethan Decker 32:46
Wonder Bread? Yep. 

Rich Bennett 32:49
Oh. 

Ethan Decker 32:49
But Mr. Sharman was a killer campaign. You're right, Mr. Whipple. I mean. Mr. Whipple. But and for those listeners out there who have no clue who Mr. Whipple is, you got to look up Mr. Whipple. Don't squeeze the Sharman. It's classic. It ran for like 15 years. 

Rich Bennett 33:04
Yeah, they were great commercials. 

Ethan Decker 33:06
But this is. 

Rich Bennett 33:09
You're listening in on the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

You know, as someone who runs both Harvard Kennedy Living and of course, my PAC is conversations with Rich Bennett. Marketing is critical. I've had plenty of companies purge me over the years, but clever cat marketing, they're different. Why? It's simple. They actually care about you, not just your business. When I partnered with Clever Cat, it wasn't about numbers or profit margins. It was about a genuine relationship. Understanding my vision and building strategies that truly resonate with my audience. Their focus on client success over profit really sets them apart. They take the time to learn what's important to you and craft solutions that fit your needs. Not a cookie cutter approach, whether it's social media, SEO, or branch strategy. I trust clever cat with all my marketing needs. So if you're looking for a marketing company that puts you first, reach out to Clever Cat. You won't regret it. Visit Clever Dash, cat Dotcom and experience the difference for yourself. 

Ethan Decker 34:26
So I bring all this up because this is brand science. Brand science says that people don't think about brands all day long. People can barely remember where their car keys are, much less which brand of olive oil they got last time or toilet paper that their spouse buys. And that's normal. And that's okay. And if you can embrace that and you realize that you need to get new customers, then it requires you. And this is not a brand law, but this is like a this is a an implication of the law. It requires that you focus on being simple shit. Simple. Being. Easy to remember 

and and bringing in new people because they're going to leave you and forget about you all the time. 

Rich Bennett 35:18
Oh, my God. 

Ethan Decker 35:20
And that's why the bears are great, right? The shaman. 

Rich Bennett 35:22
Other awesome 

Ethan Decker 35:23
They're easy to remember. They're cute. There's a whole family of them. I mean, I think it's a little saccharin. I think it's pretty a little too cheesy. It's still kind of, you know. PBS 

Rich Bennett 35:34
sense. 

Ethan Decker 35:34
Saturday morning. 

Rich Bennett 35:35
It makes sense, though, because what is it that, you know, people always say does a bear shit in the woods? 

Ethan Decker 35:41
That's right. That's right. 

Rich Bennett 35:43
So whoever was in charge of this campaign. Brilliant. 

Ethan Decker 35:48
Do you ever do you ever hear that joke about the rabbit and the bear having a talk? In the woods. So this rabbit hops over to a bear and 

the bear is is taken a shit and says. Hey. And the rabbit decides to take a shit, too. And they both kind of shit pellets. And the bear says, Hey, does a does does your shit ever stick to your fur? rabbit says, No, never y. And the bear says, Oh, just ask him. Picks up the rabbit and wipes his ass with it. 

Rich Bennett 36:21
Oh. 

Oh, wow. 

Ethan Decker 36:28
Yeah. Yeah. So many reasons. The bear's great for Shaman, but it makes it simple. Makes you remember it. 

Rich Bennett 36:35
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 36:36
If you're if your spouse buys the toilet paper most of the time, but you're suddenly forced to go out and get it, you can be like, oh, right. I remember we get the one with the bears. 

Rich Bennett 36:44
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 36:45
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 36:46
Not the angel. 

Ethan Decker 36:47
No, not the. 

Yep. 

Rich Bennett 36:51
Have you ever thought about writing a book for all about all this and helping people? 

Ethan Decker 36:55
You 

Rich Bennett 36:55
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 36:56
are on to something. And yes, I am working on my book, write my first book right now. 

Rich Bennett 37:01
Oh, nice. Okay. 

Ethan Decker 37:02
And it's going to be an intro to some of the first few laws of brand science. Absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 37:08
Great. You set a deadline yet? 

Ethan Decker 37:12
Yeah, but I passed it. I blew through it, so I got to set a new one. I'm hoping. I'm hoping that the book will be out this summer. 

Rich Bennett 37:19
Okay. Well, yeah, you definitely got to let me know when it does. 

Ethan Decker 37:23
I will. 

Rich Bennett 37:24
Because I. 

I love reading books about marketing. I love learning more about it, about that and advertising. One of my favorites of that. Well, again, that's a that's another podcast anyways. What's what's one thing and I'm focused on small businesses because I've got a lot of small business owners that listen to this. But what is one thing that small businesses or entrepreneurs, solopreneur owners can do right now? Improve their brand strategy. 

Ethan Decker 37:58
Well, I think we mentioned, first of all, focus on getting new people. 

Instead of just loyalty. loyalty trap is kind of a recipe for dwindling business. So always be, always be focusing on getting new people. Secondly, simplify what you put out there. won't even say the phrase simplify your message. Because it's not necessarily a message. You might just need color. Like there's a tree service in Boulder. Tad Akin. Interesting name, but they have red trucks with a beautiful branch painted on the side, this huge like tree branch. And the red truck with the tree branch. You see that in town all the time. And it simplifies the communication of like, oh, we cut down trees, you know, they've got a woodchipper coming off the back of most of those trucks. But the red truck with the branch, it's like the Starbucks logo. 

Rich Bennett 39:04
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 39:05
You don't know if she's a princess or a mermaid or what, but it's simple and it's. It's always green and white. So make your stuff simpler. And then the third one, which small business owners can do? As we've already alluded to, is make it interesting and ideally interesting enough that someone might literally want a T-shirt from you or put it on a cap. I have I have a small brand and I have two things which I have developed that fortunately are so interesting. People steal it from me. One of them is my logo. And if you can see this, how would you describe that? 

Rich Bennett 39:45
It's like a combination of a jackalope and a frog. 

Ethan Decker 39:50
Uh huh. 

Yes. And the Jackalope itself is a combination. Even in its name, it's a jack. 

Rich Bennett 39:57
Right. 

Ethan Decker 39:58
An antelope. Right. Jackrabbit with. 

Rich Bennett 40:01
A frog. A loop. 

Ethan Decker 40:02
This is. This is. Yes. It's like a frog elope. It's. But it's not antelope antlers or antelope horns. Because antelope have horns. It's elk antlers. So it's frog. Elk. It's a frog. 

Rich Bennett 40:17
I'd like that. 

Ethan Decker 40:18
It's a frill. It's not a jackalope. It's a frill. It's a frog with elk antlers. And this logo, People steal my shit all the time. And now I've got. Stickers 

Rich Bennett 40:28
Right. 

Ethan Decker 40:29
with it and I've got chocolate bars with it and I got T-shirts I give out and hats I give out. People love the French. And it's so interesting that my clients who might not call me for months because I do brand training, they will carry around my mug that I, I sent them with my friend on it because it's adorable. 

Rich Bennett 40:50
People are asking about it. 

Ethan Decker 40:51
They're asking about it and they're remembering me. They're thinking of me because the Felt was cute. And then the other thing I have is my tagline, which is science as. 

Which stands for science as fuck. And it's 

Rich Bennett 41:08
Right. 

Ethan Decker 41:08
from slang. And the slang is like, Oh, that's tasty. AF That's or, you know, oh, she's hot. AF or that car is sweet. AF like that, you know, that's where it comes from. So it's a twist. It's a funny twist to take something geeky like science and say, Oh, it's science af. 

Rich Bennett 41:27
I like that. 

Ethan Decker 41:28
And the same thing. People still buy science T-shirts and they love the science. They have stickers and and it helps them remember me a hell of a lot more than my stupid brand name, which is applied brand science. That's boring. They don't want to wear a T-shirt that says Applied brand science, but they do want to wear. 

Rich Bennett 41:47
Broke. 

Ethan Decker 41:48
Right. They want a frog on their shirt or they want a science AF shirt. So that was be my that was a very long winded way to say the third. 

Rich Bennett 41:56
I love that. 

Ethan Decker 41:57
Small businesses can do is do something that's interesting. And and that people like that will to laugh 

Rich Bennett 42:06
Right. 

Ethan Decker 42:06
about or they'll want to get the sticker or the want to get the cap. I here's a great example. I, I think it's such a missed opportunity for most breweries. You know, brewpubs and breweries. There's breweries everywhere now. 

Rich Bennett 42:21
Oh, yeah. 

Ethan Decker 42:22
And, you know, left hand brewing, upslope brewing. Finkle and Garth Brewing. And then you go to see their merch and it's just their logo. I don't know. I mean, I might like the brewery that much, but usually I don't want the brewery's logo on my my shirt or my hat. 

Rich Bennett 42:42
Right. 

Ethan Decker 42:42
But if you put something funny there, like, you know, beer is proof that God loves us. 

Rich Bennett 42:51
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 42:52
That's a funny shirt. I mean, that's an old classic. Beers. 

Rich Bennett 42:56
But no, but you're right. I mean, one of the one of the things I've found that worked best for me with with the Pi case years ago. 

Ethan Decker 43:04
Huh? 

Rich Bennett 43:05
I had the shirt and on the front it just said, Join the conversation. 

Ethan Decker 43:10
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 43:12
On the back. I had a giant QR code. It said, Scan this. And I had for a while I had Subway and in public because it looked like people were taking pictures of my ass. 

Ethan Decker 43:27
That's. 

Rich Bennett 43:28
But. But they were scanning the QR code. 

Ethan Decker 43:31
There is, 

Rich Bennett 43:31
And if people saw the front, they're like, they would ask me, you join the conversation. Well, we tell them, 

Ethan Decker 43:36
right? 

Rich Bennett 43:36
you know. 

Ethan Decker 43:37
Right. 

Rich Bennett 43:38
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I just one of the things I learned, I'm messing with it now as far as especially t shirts. Is different lines and I'm going to start. I haven't put them all out there yet. 

Ethan Decker 43:51
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 43:52
On the front. That is possibly the QR code. I just copy because if you just put conversations with Rich Bennett dot com, all the back people 

Ethan Decker 44:01
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:01
ain't going to remember that. 

Ethan Decker 44:02
No, no. 

Rich Bennett 44:03
They take out their food. We just went to my wife and I. We just went to a home, home and garden craft show. He. It's Imodium and it's a huge one. And And in front of each booth on the floor, there a QR code. 

Ethan Decker 44:20
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 44:21
And I guess the people in charge of of the event tied it to that business that was there. But I was surprised how many businesses didn't realize what that QR code was. 

Ethan Decker 44:33
That's crazy. 

Rich Bennett 44:34
And 

Ethan Decker 44:34
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:35
I would say yes. Yes. I'm interested in your company. I scan the QR code, opens up right away on my phone, and I could save your website right there. 

Ethan Decker 44:41
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know what you can even do to your t shirt on the back? You should just say. 

Rich Bennett 44:46
Put a frank. 

Ethan Decker 44:47
Well. You could. You could. You could. But but I think I think for your shirt, if you're going to do the Q, I think you should say, don't scan this. 

Rich Bennett 44:57
Oh. Oh, Oh, I like that. 

Ethan Decker 45:00
See. 

Rich Bennett 45:01
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 45:01
It's just a little touch. It's a 

Rich Bennett 45:03
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 45:03
little thing that makes it go from kind of, you know, marketing to interesting. 

Rich Bennett 45:09
Yeah, I like that. 

Ethan Decker 45:11
And then it's like a funny little challenge and it's reverse psychology and it's goofy. And if someone if someone sees that on your back, that'll raise more eyebrows. 

Rich Bennett 45:21
Yeah. It's just like telling the kid not to do something they're going to do. 

Ethan Decker 45:23
Right. Right. Don't touch. Just. 

Rich Bennett 45:25
Wow. Hey, I do want to ask you about this because and I fell into the I got to tell you this story real quick. So the one of the actually the first radio station I worked at where I was shown advertised, and it was a brand new station. And I went to a car dealership to, you know, try to sell them on the station. And of course, they're like, well, we never heard of you. I said, Well, it's a brand new station. Well, will we listen to this country station? I said, Well, do me a favor. For the next couple of weeks, when people come in asking me how they heard about you. 

Ethan Decker 46:01
Right. 

Rich Bennett 46:02
I went back a couple of weeks later, general manager came up and thanked me, you know, for running an ad for. He's going on. And I said, Well, I got news for you. I did not run an ad for you. people kept saying they heard it on your radio station. 

And the reason being is because it was a new station in that area. 

Ethan Decker 46:22
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 46:23
So people were listening to it and they may have heard the ad on another station, but they remembered that radio station. So. 

Ethan Decker 46:32
Yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:33
How and I see this a lot with and especially nowadays with display advertising on websites and everything. I can see how many clicks and impressions it's getting. But the let's say the business that has the ad may not. Doesn't know if if people are coming in on. 

Ethan Decker 46:56
Right. 

Rich Bennett 46:56
What? Is there a trick or what's the science, I guess you could say, behind finding out if a campaign is working and tracking the success of it? 

Ethan Decker 47:08
This is. 

Rich Bennett 47:09
If it's actually bringing people in. 

Ethan Decker 47:11
Yeah. First of all, it's tough overall. I like to say science is hard. Science is hard. Science is hard. Science is hard. Business is hard. 

Rich Bennett 47:21
F. 

Ethan Decker 47:22
It's science. It's hard as fuck. You're right. Science is hard af. 

Rich Bennett 47:28
Right. 

Ethan Decker 47:28
And that's why like to take something from recent memory. The whole thing about masks and COVID is because science is hard. Like there was a time. Do you remember? Everyone was wiping their hands and not touching the gas. Gas? 

Rich Bennett 47:43
Oh, yeah. Oh, my 

Ethan Decker 47:44
Thing. 

Rich Bennett 47:44
God. Forgot about that. Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 47:45
Like. And you were wiping down all your groceries when you got home 

Rich Bennett 47:49
Yes. 

Ethan Decker 47:49
from the store because you didn't know if you touched the wrong thing. You contract COVID. 

Rich Bennett 47:54
But people are handling dollar bills like crazy. 

Ethan Decker 47:57
And then and then it was all the masks And could, 

Rich Bennett 47:59
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 48:00
could, could a bandana work or not? Could you use a sock. Like there were all these cosines is hard. So 

Rich Bennett 48:08
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 48:08
that's my, my first point which gets to then this what you call attribution. How do you attribute a sale to a marketing effort? Do you attribute that sale to the ad? On the radio. Do you attribute that sale to a click on the website? Do you attribute that sale to a maybe you got a billboard in town or a, you know, 

Rich Bennett 48:29
Right. 

Ethan Decker 48:30
like a bus shelter or the park bench you advertised on? What do you attribute the the sale to and that is hard as well. There are a lot 

Rich Bennett 48:40
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 48:40
of people who will will sell you models about that and try and do media modeling or media mix modeling. I think it's called. 

Rich Bennett 48:49
Mm. 

Ethan Decker 48:51
But it's hard because just like you said, people don't know what they what they did and what they were exposed. 

Rich Bennett 48:58
Right. 

Ethan Decker 48:59
So if you ask someone, well, why did you come into my shop? And they might say, Well, because my friend Julie told me. But it might be because of the the thing they saw on the bus, shelter or might have also been because they heard your ad on the radio. 

Rich Bennett 49:12
Right? 

Ethan Decker 49:13
Or they might say, Oh, yeah, I heard you on the radio. Like you said, you weren't on that radio station. 

Rich Bennett 49:17
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 49:18
You are on a different radio station. Or they don't even. It wasn't even the radio. It was a banner ad that they saw on Instagram. 

Rich Bennett 49:26
Or they may not even know, period. 

Ethan Decker 49:28
Correct. 

Rich Bennett 49:28
They could have been walking by. 

Ethan Decker 49:29
So it is a hard problem to know what marketing caused the sale. And often it's not just one thing. So for instance, if you do any kind of marketing with Google or Facebook, they will take credit for the sale. Even though what drove them to Google to begin with, right. Might have been talking to their buddy. So it might have been talking to Margo. And Margo said, Oh my God, I love this new mascara, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you go on to Google and you search for that mascara. Google's going to claim they're the reason for the sale. But Margot was really the reason for the sale. 

Rich Bennett 50:15
That 

Ethan Decker 50:15
So. 

Rich Bennett 50:15
makes sense. Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 50:16
The attribution problem is very hard. And so 

Rich Bennett 50:20
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 50:20
you got to be careful what the what, especially if you do social. A lot of people do social, a lot of small businesses. If you're on Facebook. Facebook claims credit for everything. 

Rich Bennett 50:29
Mm. 

Ethan Decker 50:30
You got to be careful because that's what of course, they'd say that. 

Rich Bennett 50:34
Right. 

Ethan Decker 50:34
You know, of course they'd claim they'd claim it's them or Google. Same thing. Of course they'll claim they're the reason. So it's hard. You've got to know what you're measuring and then you got to be careful when you ask people, because just like you pointed out, people don't remember what they had for breakfast last week, much less where they heard your ad. 

Rich Bennett 50:53
And the other thing was that, too and I don't know how you feel about this, and this is the marketing part. 

Ethan Decker 51:00
Hmm. Hmm. 

Rich Bennett 51:02
Some people like you'll see ads. You seem a lot like the flyers that come in the mail and everything where you get the coupon with it or radio. It'll say, if you mention so-and-so, you'll get 10% off. 

Ethan Decker 51:16
Hmm. 

Rich Bennett 51:16
Does that even work as well? 

Ethan Decker 51:19
It can work. It can work. 

Rich Bennett 51:22
All right. 

Ethan Decker 51:22
It's tricky. And also what works for me might not work for the. 

Rich Bennett 51:27
Right. 

Ethan Decker 51:27
So there's a there's a guy Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary. 

Rich Bennett 51:32
I love Gary Vee. Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 51:33
He's awesome. 

Rich Bennett 51:34
Yeah. Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 51:35
And he's he's he's a hustler and he's really big on social media and he's really big on online sales. The the the chat. One of the challenges they have with Gary Vee is that he believes what works for him works for everybody. So he is on the record many times saying, TV's dead. No one watches TV. No one watches TV. No one even owns TV. All they do is watch YouTube. And I've never I've never seen anyone who watches TV anymore. Well, he got he's got to get out then. He's got to get out more because plenty of people watched. 

Rich Bennett 52:07
I watch TV. 

Ethan Decker 52:08
I know. 

Rich Bennett 52:09
There. 

Ethan Decker 52:09
But he he believes that what worked for him is what's going to work for you. 

Rich Bennett 52:15
Right? 

Ethan Decker 52:16
And therefore, if you don't do what he does, then you're an idiot. And that's that's where the marketing science is helpful, because I can I can actually look at the data and say, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is what we would call a lever, not a law. A lever is a coupon. A lever is social media posting ten times a day like Gary Vee does. 

Rich Bennett 52:39
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 52:40
A lever is an ad on local TV for Frank Azar, Strong arm of the law. Call 1888888. Frank Azar will get you your money. Those are levers. 

Rich Bennett 52:53
Three pack a shaman. 

Ethan Decker 52:55
Yeah, tell it. So a coupon might work for you? It might work great. Now, then again, if you make it a creative coupon, it might work even better. 

Rich Bennett 53:05
Right. 

Ethan Decker 53:07
IKEA. You know them, right? They. 

Rich Bennett 53:09
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 53:09
company IKEA did a coupon once for a free crib. But here's the trick. You had to prove that you that the baby was conceived on Valentine's Day. 

Rich Bennett 53:25
How the hell? 

Ethan Decker 53:27
Yeah. I don't know how you do it quite. Or something like by a free crib on Valentine's Day. If, if you can. If you have your baby in this month of September. You know, like them, you know. So it was some kind of creative way to connect Valentine's Day. 

Rich Bennett 53:43
Right. 

Ethan Decker 53:44
To the coupon. 

But you got to you got to see if it works. And maybe it works for me, but it doesn't work for me. And so coupons can work, but they're not guaranteed. 

Rich Bennett 53:56
Right. 

Ethan Decker 53:56
You know? 

Rich Bennett 53:57
Right. 

Ethan Decker 53:58
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 53:59
So with your business and the frock. I. I'm sorry. I just love it. I actually do sell. Do you sell the shirts and everything on your website? 

Ethan Decker 54:09
I do not yet have my spot, my Shopify app, but I'll send you some stuff. So you get it. You get some of your shirt size and I'll send you some stickers and some some merch. 

Rich Bennett 54:19
Well, what I want to talk about, about the business apply brand sites. You 

Ethan Decker 54:23
Mm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 54:23
offer workshops. Tell us a little bit about them. 

Ethan Decker 54:26
I do. I do two things. One of the things I do is I just literally help you with your brand. So I got a great service. I call the brand Tune up. You bring your brand into the shop. I put it up on the on the lift. 

Rich Bennett 54:41
Lift. 

Ethan Decker 54:42
We we look under the hood, we check all the fluids. We see how your brand is doing. I fix some basic things. You know, I change out the air filter on your brand, and then I tell you what other bigger repairs you might need. And that's. That's like a couple thousand bucks. It's hopefully for, you know, affordable for smaller companies. 

Rich Bennett 55:01
Mm hmm. 

Ethan Decker 55:01
Their brand to get looked at. I also do much more much more large scale brand work for larger 

Rich Bennett 55:07
Right. 

Ethan Decker 55:08
companies. Like I did a big thing with Whirlpool. I did a big thing with La-Z-Boy. So if you're a larger company, you can bring me in and we can do a more serious brand fix. And then the other thing I do is I train. So I can train you on the brand science and I can teach your team how branding works. And usually I do that right now for medium sized companies that that have some folks that that need to get brands training, maybe their sales folks or maybe their retail folks. And they just don't quite understand the branding. 

Rich Bennett 55:39
Right. 

Ethan Decker 55:40
So I teach and train as well. 

Rich Bennett 55:43
So if people want to get in touch with you and say, Oh, we want to do this workshop, we need your help. How do they get in touch with you? 

Ethan Decker 55:51
Call. 1888888. Ethan Decker, the strong arm of the law. No, that's that's not how you get in touch with me. There are two 

Rich Bennett 56:01
Oh. 

Ethan Decker 56:01
places 

Rich Bennett 56:01
What? 

Ethan Decker 56:02
to reach me that are super easy. One of them is just the website Applied Brand Science Dotcom. I think I am going to put up for AL.com because I have that and that's that's a shorter. So applied 

Rich Bennett 56:13
Yes. 

Ethan Decker 56:14
brand science dot com, that's the one. And then the other one is I'm on this place got linked in quite a bit which is like Facebook for nerds. 

Rich Bennett 56:23
Wait a minute now. LinkedIn is awesome. 

Ethan Decker 56:25
It is. 

Rich Bennett 56:26
I. 

Ethan Decker 56:26
It is. But I embrace my nerdiness. 

Rich Bennett 56:28
Say I'm a nerd. I think everybody. 

Ethan Decker 56:31
You're a nerd. 

Rich Bennett 56:32
Nerd in 

Ethan Decker 56:33
Rich. You're a nerd. 

Rich Bennett 56:33
way or another. 

Ethan Decker 56:34
Oh, yeah. No, it's cool to be nerds now, 

Rich Bennett 56:36
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 56:37
but. But anyway, I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit. You can find me at E.H. Dekker or Ethan Dekker and just look for that and you'll. You'll track me down. I post there quite a bit. I post little articles and we have great conversations about branding and brand growth and brand laws. 

Rich Bennett 56:52
You offer a newsletter on your website? 

Ethan Decker 56:54
I do. 

Rich Bennett 56:54
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 56:55
I do. Thanks for reminding me of that. Yeah. I should hire you. I do have a weekly newsletter and you can sign up for it at Applied Brand Science dot com slash. Sign up. 

Rich Bennett 57:11
That's easy to remember. 

Ethan Decker 57:13
I try. 

Rich Bennett 57:13
All right, So before I because now my listeners have been sending me questions to ask as they come on. But before I get to maybe one or two of those questions, is there anything you would like to add? 

Ethan Decker 57:28
No. 

Rich Bennett 57:29
Now. 

Ethan Decker 57:30
No. 

Rich Bennett 57:31
Damn easy. 

Ethan Decker 57:33
I try to make it easy for you. 

Rich Bennett 57:37
All right. So this one and actually, I've had this guy on my show, Awesome guy. His name's Kelvin Abrams. He wrote, I think is the name of his book was Get Uncomfortable Uncomfortable or Change Course. Pretty that's thought it was but he was though. So what's your best strategy for making it through the tough times and weathering the storms? 

Ethan Decker 58:02
You know, 

one of the best strategies is to keep marketing. little counterintuitive, but. 

Kellogg versus General Mills Classic battle royale between the two big cereal companies during the war, literally World War two. General Mills cut back on advertising. And Kellogg didn't. And when they came out of the war, Kellogg was ahead by a long shot. 

Rich Bennett 58:32
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 58:33
You know, Mills has tightened up the race. And of course, times change. It's a long time ago, but 

do not stop advertising as best you can in tough times. You know, don't cut don't cut back on that. Try and cut back on other things. You know, you might have austerity in other ways. Not as much coffee for the for the staff or cutting back on your parties or other things. But but whatever you can do, whatever you can to keep the lights on with your advertising, with your promotion. 

Rich Bennett 59:05
Some of these questions are scary. I just 

don't know if I can't ask this when it's stupid. You know what we were talking about? Shaman and everything else. So. And the frog. So this what makes this one comes from my son Tay. Andy Bennett. What would you rather fight? Ten duck sized bears or 100 bear sized ducks? 

I don't know where he comes up with this shit. 

Ethan Decker 59:36
I'd say that's a great question. Thank you. For that question. Ten duck sized bears. Absolutely. I think I think them being smaller makes them just that much less lethal. I think. 

Rich Bennett 59:52
Step on them. 

Ethan Decker 59:53
Yeah. A bear sized ducks seem scary as hell. Scary? 

Rich Bennett 59:58
Oh, yeah, 

I love that. I so my last question for you 

and you can answer it with what you already said about the book. 

Ethan Decker 1:00:12
All right. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:12
What is the next big thing for Ethan Dekker? 

Ethan Decker 1:00:19
Outside of a book. 

The next big thing for me is 

probably 

spooling up some new cocktail recipes. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:36
What? 

Ethan Decker 1:00:38
I have a little I have a little 

little garage bar for my. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:45
Oh, come on, now. 

Ethan Decker 1:00:47
Neighbors. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:48
Ethan. 

Ethan Decker 1:00:49
I 

Rich Bennett 1:00:49
Dude. 

Ethan Decker 1:00:49
have. I have a couple hundred bottles. Really interesting stuff. And it's too much for me to drink alone. So that's why I bring over my friends and and so call it Pits and Stems because all the cool bars have an ampersand in their name, you know, Death and taco Cult and Grey. And so so I have a little a little garage bar. My buddies come by. So you're going to have to come out to to Colorado. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:16
Care for what you say because my son goes out there a lot. 

Ethan Decker 1:01:19
Well, he should come. He should come. He can do. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:22
What's one of your what's one of your favorite bourbons? 

Ethan Decker 1:01:25
Oh, man. 

Well, you know, I. I do like. 

I do like Buffalo Trace. That's a 

Rich Bennett 1:01:35
You 

Ethan Decker 1:01:35
that's. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:35
can never go wrong with Buffalo Trace. 

Ethan Decker 1:01:37
It's a solid, 

Rich Bennett 1:01:37
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 1:01:38
well, bourbon for me at the upper end. I'm really into a company here in Denver called Leopold Brothers. They're a craft distillery and I am blessed because I think they are they're maybe the best craft distillery in the whole country, and they're right here in my backyard and they make some incredible bourbons. So if you can ever get your hands on some Leopold Brothers, eight year straight bourbon whiskey, get it because it's delicious. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:08
Now. 

Ethan Decker 1:02:09
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:10
Do you guys. All right, so I lied. That was not my last question, because I had no idea about, you know, the bar out in the garage. And that's one of my trades. I am actually a professional, professional mixologist too, even though I have it. Yeah, and it seems like old fashioned. Are are back big time. 

Ethan Decker 1:02:33
You're right. You're right. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:35
Have you ever tried one with? It's a brand called Filthy Cherries. They're both. 

Ethan Decker 1:02:40
No. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:41
And oh, my God, if you you could find them on 

Ethan Decker 1:02:46
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:46
online. But they're they're great. But when you when you make old fashioned, do you prefer rye or bourbon? 

Ethan Decker 1:02:55
Well, me, I personally prefer rye. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:59
Okay. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:00
And again, Leopold has a maryland style rye, which is amazing. Whistlepig has some really. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:06
Oh, my God. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:07
Whistle. Pig tan is great, but. But I will. I'll do whatever my buddies want. And if my buddies, if my friends, my guests prefer bourbon, I make a bourbon Old-Fashioned. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:17
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:17
And then frankly, just between us. For if no one's listening, I much prefer a manhattan to an old fashioned. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:25
A smoked manhattan, especially. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:27
Smoke. Manhattan's great. I like a forest Manhattan. I like 

Rich Bennett 1:03:31
Oh. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:32
a winter Manhattan, which is basically you start subbing some of the sweet vermouth with other stuff you can put in tomorrow, which makes it incredible. You can put in some. Here's. Here's a crazy twist. Banana liquor. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:48
Oh, 

Ethan Decker 1:03:48
For a jungle Manhattan. You do 50, you know. It's like two ounces of bourbon 

Rich Bennett 1:03:53
right. 

Ethan Decker 1:03:53
and then a half ounce of sweet vermouth and a half ounce of banana liquor. 

And most people I put I do that to people and they don't even they can't identify the flavor. They're like, this is amazing. What is that flavor? And then I say, It's banana. And they go, Holy shit, it's banana. So it's really cool. But that kind of stuff. I love Manhattan because it's a little bit it's not just bourbon with a. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:20
Right. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:20
Bitters and sugar. It's it's got some more complexity. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:24
I said now I got. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:26
All right. We're going to have a nut. We're going to need to. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:27
We are. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:28
Every episode on this. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:29
The one guy that asked the question, Kelvin Abrams. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:32
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:33
He because he has a doggy day care next to it. He has a it's a bourbon bar. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:39
Nice. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:39
So I'll have to get on. Well, do I? Never. Well, I've never done this around table on cocktail, so I could 

Ethan Decker 1:04:46
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:47
be. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:47
I mean, I'm 

Rich Bennett 1:04:49
All 

Ethan Decker 1:04:49
a. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:49
right. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:49
Sending cocktails and cocktails and branding. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:52
Yes. What? I mean, some 

Ethan Decker 1:04:56
Come 

Rich Bennett 1:04:56
of the best 

Ethan Decker 1:04:56
on. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:57
out there. 

Ethan Decker 1:04:57
That'd be so fun. We could talk about all the different bourbon brands and the cut spirits brands and the bars. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:02
You got to get the whistlepig maple syrup to. 

Ethan Decker 1:05:05
Whistlepig makes really good maple syrup. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:07
Yeah. 

Ethan Decker 1:05:07
Yep. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:07
And mix it with a bourbon. A bourbon of of Was it a they had the drink. It's a maple. I think it's the whistlepig maple. Old fashioned. 

Ethan Decker 1:05:15
Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm hmm. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:16
All right, Now I'm getting thirsty and hungry. 

Ethan Decker 1:05:18
right. Did. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:19
Ethan Thanks a lot, man. 

Ethan Decker 1:05:21
My pleasure. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:23
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoy today's episode and learn something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with Rich Bennett Dotcom. For updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care, Be kind and keep the conversations going.