Planting lessons from the past - David McDougall

David McDougall reflects on years of church planting in London and how he has taken lessons from there to lead a church now that is planting churches across the City of Milton Keynes.

Transcript

Paul Pavlou:   0:01
I've won its pull here. Welcome to church, Plant Chap. And today we have a very special guest with us. We have David McDougall, who is my boss. So I get Teo, get to interview him today and grill him. It's time to get payback. Eso hay Hello? Yeah, likewise. And where we're interviewing in the midst of the Corona virus season. I think it's Maze and we may Now we now have lost trackable Today's so David Eve missing to a few of these, you know, the structure and the first

David McDougall:   0:41
question I like working with Booth. I

Paul Pavlou:   0:51
have to get back at some point. Uh, what's what's the way? This or strangest thing that you've experienced in your years off ofthe church planting?

David McDougall:   1:05
You're going to say my many years, but you know,

Paul Pavlou:   1:08
they count this count this year. I

David McDougall:   1:11
was just before I came over, Kim. So how long have I actually be ministry? And she said, 33 years you've been a minister. I think you got thinking a year after that, we got married. So yes, on in those same three years, I tell you some crazy things. I've seen this a fantastic charities, but with also with some really weird things happening. So when I planted church into somebody on 10 schools and say this, um, I took a planting, which I'll talk about it later on. But you take it, Clancy, actually, then when you get there, people will join the church from the community. Fair enough on DH. Sometimes you get people's fringe church members. Mother Jet, is that join the dirt Anyway? I won't say the name of the person, but the strangest, most crazy thing that's ever happened to the ministry is when one of these very odd people came up so we could take a daily. This is I've got a word for you. It's in tongues, and I've written it down. Alas, it put what? I actually I actually kept it because I thought you'd thiss is thiss is the were this thing that I've ever ever seen in my life. I thought, My God, in your church. Very strange for

Paul Pavlou:   2:51
those people listening, David is now holding up some scribbles on the screen.

David McDougall:   2:55
I kept it in my odds and sods file. I just thought is just the funniest. Most weird is crankiest thing, but then you know God's church. Yeah, so you have a minute for people? If that's

Paul Pavlou:   3:12
tonnes written down, then I think even my five year old has been having a lot of prophetic tongue

David McDougall:   3:17
with lots of lots of things happened, but But

Paul Pavlou:   3:24
they were nice writing thing, so I should probably mention David isn't planting himself any more. But he has a track record off off leading church plants and then also being part the catalyst for other ones that happened over the years. And now, in his later years ministry. Here he is. He's heading up ST Mary's Church in Bletchley. On he is planting plants is elsewhere within the Milton Keane's scenery. Teo eight Church growth into See God's Kingdom Come here in the King's. So today we're gonna be looking a bit about David's lessons from planting in years gone by, and I'm sure other stuff will unfold a CZ we go through. So, David, how did you How did you actually get into church Plant in the first place, when when you're ordained, Deacon was always on your heart. Teo, go forward to planting. Or is it something that emerged during your curious e or elsewhere?

David McDougall:   4:33
Not a scratch fishing. I am. I was thinking through the different plants, and I reckon that either directly or indirectly, I've been involved with 88 different church plants. And some of the churches that I've bean ministering in actually have now planted after that. But then I have not been directly involved in those because they got planting. But I'm really glad that they are. But how did I get into all this in the first place? Well, when I was a curator here at Samaras Ble, actually, because I've done a huge circle. Gods called me back to milk scenes, which I absolutely love being here. But when I was a curate here in the 19 eighties, I I really I've always been called to evangelism, a mission that's, you know, that's my priority to see people come to Jesus. That's that's what my life is about is the focus focus on it. And when I was here n fusing the director, then he said, you know, he loved the fact that mission was won anything and he said, No, concentrate all that David, and you know, we just let you have freedom. So I said to you today. Oh, well, I'd like to go down to London. I'd love to talk to John Irvine. Who is the guy who planted some valuables in Kensington on? That was the first HDB plant on our city. And I'd love to just go down to maybe once a week, once a fortnight and just spend some time with John. And so they did that. They let me do that. They gave me expenses in the time to do that. So I went down to symbolic Miss Kensington and met with that holy lovely man. You know who gave who was so gracious with me and just let me just ask him Grilling like your room, me and others. Look, I have no questions about church planting, and I put together a little paper and over several weeks and then came back to ST Mary's lecturer PCC and said, Oh, this is what I've discovered about church planting a night. I'd love us to be doing it here. It's a mayor is actually, and you know, what do you think? And the PTC didn't, you know, didn't disagree with me. They thought was a good idea. They didn't quite know how it could happen, but actually they they certainly took it on board at the time on DH Then Then I probably left because it was the end of the curious e on DH. I went on to the next carriage. So when I was obtained, if you'd asked me what my what? Why calling would be it would be, you know, to be evangelist and to be preaching the gospel. Not really to be a judge planter, But I still have found a real interest in judge planting on DH, then sort of researched it, wrote about it and then, you know, when inter ministry from there. So that's that's how it all got started anyway.

Paul Pavlou:   7:26
Yeah, and I've I've become aware while stealing these podcasts that some may be listening, thinking it's a different kind of cool being a planter. Or people may be misinterpreting it, thinking I'm not that kind of person that complying with church because I'm not this that the other on unconcerned that I'm potentially putting people off from planting because there's a specific a specific thing about. But actually what I want to be doing is helping to enable people see that actually, you can be planted. So that's why I like to ask the question of how the cool to merge. Because essentially we as church leaders there should we should all have, in my opinion, an element of pioneering in our ministries. We should all have an enemy. They should be the first former sentiment to preach the gospel and share it to want to see new growth, shouldn't it? So what? I'm trying what I'm getting at, I think is Do you think people need a specific court plan? And I'm asking this for my own discernment as well? Or do you think it's simply we need to be willing to say, God, I'm here? Just put me wherever you want. And if that ends up being a plant, great. If it ends up being a church of these revitalisation Great. Do you think this is a distinction between the plant Is call on DH other checking shit. Cool Or is it just It's a free

David McDougall:   9:04
fall. Okay, I am gonna want your question. I will start in a slightly different place. But I want to say, first of all that there's nothing new about church planting. Plantings is old. The church itself. Thousands of years we've been planting, it should be natural to us. It shouldn't be. Oh, let's get really excited about planting and people think it's really sexy. Great. Well, let's do it. You know, this is the latest trend. Let's jump on board this bandwagon. Now we've seen on this being on this plant they were found back in if you wanted to call back 4000 years and every church was planted at some point the church you know that you're in now if you're listening to us on this, you know, he was planted by somebody on It takes really a plasterer of different people to plant churches, because actually, there's no one set of gifts that says are they're obviously a judge, Clarence. I think that's something that I really realised very clearly over the years. So, for instance, one of the local one of the most recent clothes, if you like, we'd be nimble with here. It's a marriage is actually to bring alive again in a church which was struggling. Calls surprise Dwight's on DH Catherine, but the vicar there is, is the leader of that off that transplant of that regeneration of off that church, would she? You say she was called to be a judge plant? I'm sure we'll ask her, but I'm sure she wouldn't say that was the first calling. Is she the right person to be there and be the leader of that transplant? Oh, my goodness. Yes, Andi. Exponential growth is using is absolutely fantastic. So church planting is nothing. You So why Why is the Church of England you know we suddenly think, Oh, gosh, you know, this is something we should be doing in that what we always should be doing every church plant is utterly different, depending on the context of where you plant depends on the sort of leader it needs Andi So that every every plant is different. In many ways, almost every plant is different. So I think there's an awful off church leaders who could be clouds themselves that haven't even thought about it. As I think there are lots of lots of churches that could be church plans. If you're over 101 150 Really? Really. You know, it would be great if you were planting out because especially as we face church being really different in the future. Anyway, it's probably better that churches are smaller, and so we spread wider right across this nation in an experimental way. So I think that would be my answer to your

Paul Pavlou:   11:55
helpful and I'm Ah, I think out of this covert 19 season, I believe there will be a fresh wave off planting that takes place in the UK, and I'm sure further afield. But I just can't help but think it's God use it as a catalyst. The planting to explode on DH They may have mentioned it in my church history elections back at college on DH. I may have missed it, but I'm just wondering. I was just wondering, maybe you have some insight into, and if not, that's fine. But what was? What do you think? Cause there you say, churches were planted way back when and now the last 10 to 20 years, there's a resurgence of planting. What do you think happened in that middle bit? Was there a 400 year silence on planting from God? But was it why? Why dates the church fall asleep to plant it in that time? Do you think maybe they inform asleep but why the initial churches that were planted? Why were they not? Why was there not a continuation of that momentum? Do you think? Why is it why is it had to go full circle and almost B b birth again?

David McDougall:   13:16
Well, I mean, as you read through acts you can see from home to home. Which again? Coming out of context now. Church in the house, Mr that Such an exciting thought and actually developing on smaller churches So you can see how it started. And then churches over the over 1000 years, your people church becomes established, doesn't it? Against into a certain routine? And I think unfortunately, instead of having the balance of the inwards, the outward and the upwards sense of purpose a church, I think we've become so inward on Biff. You like upward that actually we have forgotten. I think the outward nature of church has really got lost over the years. And so I think God's just, you know, really wanting us tow to rediscover that he's helping the chest rediscover. Actually, I am thrilled to be a Chechen minister because the Church of England is doing amazing things in our day and has changed unrecognised ugly in the last in the last 10 years. I mean, the bishops now talking openly, encouraging church mounting. It's fantastic. So I think I'm glad to say that we're changing, but I think through the danger of of church just being for us and it being so incredibly important, it's just pastoral work, you know, on our relationship with each other and our religion, God is actually Jesus came to seek and save the lost on. So, you know, we really had to sort of refocus the church. The crazy thing that we had a decade of advantages. What? Why have a decade? No, we need, you know, is millennia of evangelist missing and then hold him. It's holding the balance. Have been out a long time. And I think God praise God that he is actually helping us now to get that balance, right?

Paul Pavlou:   15:18
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I took herself in a bit of attention there. It wasn't planned. So tell us in your first plant, Hamdi plants were excited. Actually. Know this where you did you need before we talk about the first? I wasn't the one and then the others. You just got involved in here?

David McDougall:   15:35
Yeah. So for 12 years, I lead a plant. So that was a look. That was a long part. My 33 years, Actually, before I planted myself, I was helping up other plants to get going and asked during the time of the clouds and save you some brie. I was encouraging other plants to get going. And afterwards I've bean encouraging plants to get going. But for 12 years, I let the church plant, which was a transplant, into ST Saviour's summary. So yeah, I could tell you the storey of that. Is that you?

Paul Pavlou:   16:07
Yeah. You start there. Yeah.

David McDougall:   16:10
Yeah, Well, brilliant. Bishop Michael Cole cough down in Kensington who was just the most beautiful Pascoe Bishop. He approached me and he said, Saviour summary is in a strategic strategic place. We don't want to lose it. It's got 18 19 people left in it. It's bean. Hi Latin Catholic Church. Really Anglican judge for for years with this tiny group people, they're losing the war. David, would you go and help them win the war? That's what the bishop said to me. He said, Abdullah, how are you going to do it? he said. But I would love you to love me, to have a go at it. So I went to Andrew Watson, who is the the vicar of Steven's, these wicked and where I was based at the time I said that the bishops asked us to look at this. What do you think? He's asked me to lead it, and I would love to take a team from 16 to trick him to do this thing, and Andrew and I, we pray, walked around some very area. We've thought about it. We discussed it with some people and actually really sensed God's call. And in fact, I felt a specific call tio that church from AC 16 when Paul has a vision about going over to massive alien being told to go, that's of Estonian, help them. And I felt actually in the Scriptures I felt that God actually said to May David, go over to Macedonian and help go over some brie and help. So I felt really cool to that. Andi, in different ways, came as well felt. We've always some things. They always agree things together, and she felt really called as well to sin, save your summary. And so we agreed. Isn't Steven Sickening Way would do this thing and so over appeared. I think of about six months. We held open meetings in the church and said, You know, if you're interested in coming with us to plant it's about four miles up the road from from chicken. It's not really very far. 316 on way. Help! Hell, Those meetings we said, you know Oh, if you are up for a challenge, please don't come. It's gonna be tough. It's going into a very different culture Since Stevens, he's Twickenham is in Eastwick Inn, in which very educated, very wealthy, very lovely and we loved living there and we'd love to be in the church grows, um, massively in our time there. But since Saviour, some breezy on it's not down by the river, is up on the estates, it's right on the edge of the motorway highrises, crime, drugs, really broken families, rooted families, but broken families on DH. It was very different to leafy, leafy twig him. So we really told people that it wasn't gonna be easy if you if you joined us. But we would love people from the heart, the church. And I think this is one of the things I that I learned doing it. And I have been thinking a lot about since that, actually the people that you want, especially in that kind of transplant situation, into a difficult places we went into. You need people who I would call the gold of the judge. You know, people in the heart of the show. So people from the chorus that Stevens have some moved up to some breeze, some just committed up to something. But we have 35 amazing people who called by God to go with us into some brie with the kind of 18 or 19 people that were left in the church on DSO. The adventure began over 12 years, and I tell you, I loved every moment of it. Love seeing people come to Jesus, loved getting this the old skip around the back of the church car park, filling with water and baptising people. That's the only way we could do it. Andi, we have amazing baptisms on that car park behind the church there, as people came to Christ were baptised, and then they began their deception journey. I don't regret any. Any moment of those those judge party years. Kim and I Children grew up there in a beautiful old bickering behind the the church. We saw that the the community begin to be really served. That shirt was only open a few hours every week before we arrived on DH. I want, since Eva has really got going, it was open every day for hours and hours now, and it was serving people, you know. It was feeding people. It was carried from people. I was loving the elderly on the isolated. It was seeing tremendous inroads into all sorts things. A food bank opened, cap got going. All sorts of things happened, and it was just It was a total total adventure. I love the fact that when we got there, people did join us from other churches because they felt called not because they just wanted to transfer in because it was exciting what's happening. But they lived there. So I give you one storey because I could probably too long, and you probably heard me a bit because there's lots of things I could talk about when we arrived there. The acreage was a mess. The victories land was a mess and the victory Islam's acres, That was huge. So we got the diet is defensive off. That was the first thing that we got them to do. That was great. The diocese were brilliant. So was the bishop. And we face up on the team that I had. We physically cleared the land ourselves. We brought it right down to the ground. We found cars, televisions, drug needles, the lot in that land. It was It was really awful on. We totally cleared the land in all, declared the land with loads and loads of bonfires on DH. The neighbours were getting a room, understandably a bit cross with us. This guy called Dave Archery and storm ground. The reason why you're doing all these bug? Only these both fires and barking away. This smoke's going in my house. I'm really fed up with you. It's dreadful. This is a witness. He was a Christian from the church and he was really cross. I took it, so I gave a gay. So I take it around the back of a decree. Jin Kim made it. We made him a cup of coffee and I watch him around the land showed him why the bonfires were happening. What was happening? He couldn't believe it, he said. He said, So who are you? What's going on here? And we shared within the vision and you could see as the corpse stage went on, the light dolling on him Before he left the heros, he turned to him and I said, I need to tell you something, he said. My father grew up in the house just over there that looks over this land of the decoration. Concede this the sensate church, he said. Every morning for 30 or 40 years, my father prayed for revival to come to somebody on. I'm really sorry, I moaned, Andi, I'm really It's amazing what you're doing. Keep doing it. Stuff the bonfires on DH on Dave but ends up being one of my church, one's most special, godly, wonderful man than his wife suit on. And I could give you countless examples that I just give you one more before I finish on this and save this bait. But you never know what you've got until you get there on DH amongst those 18 people that were left in since ages. You know, I discovered I discovered people lovely Christian people who had been frightened to tell their liquor they done Alfred secret that they literally they have done often in a little church down the road because they wanted to know more about Christ. And so they became Christians and through Alfa in another church, but then stayed with since Avis Church. Under the previous with previous leadership on DH, they were gold. And then I started. Another couple who came to Christ during the Billy Graham Crusades on had kept it quiet all the years because actually, they knew that the people all the vicar certainly wouldn't have liked thin talking about it. So they kept it really quiet on week. We arrived in Kim and I went and had tea and coffee and cakes in them in their homes before we really got going. That was Kim's idea. Brilliant tow. Actually. Sit down and listen to the storey and and to hear people on DH, this lovely couples told us about how they came to face on how they were so excited we were coming because they felt actually be able to be open about their face on DH. So you know the hit hidden treasures like that come up on. Do you get your weirdos as well? But my goodness, Yeah, it was ah, really, really exciting. Adventure.

Paul Pavlou:   25:09
Yeah, that's amazing. I've written down a bunch of questions out that it's a pick one. Ask a couple of things. Did you inherit people from the church that you transplanted into Was so there was an existing group

David McDougall:   25:24
that that was the 18

Paul Pavlou:   25:25
year. What was what was the change management, like within within that. How did that go?

David McDougall:   25:34
Well, that that was really hard, because actually, way we're gonna do such a different thing. The thing that that was amazing was that those 18 people, including one existing church or no, there were two existing just war. Still, when I arrived, they unanimously agreed that I could come with a with a plant on DH on DH. They unanimously agreed that they wanted me to be their leader. So that was that was fantastic. I mean, that was a miracle in itself, because that that's not always true. Sometimes officials mission what has to happen in order for things to happen, But this. This was an elation Storey on DH But of course, when we moved in And what when we wanted to get going. Actually, we wanted to do things very differently. So you have to have this sort of balance. So what I decided was a Eucharistic Ministry for those people was very, very important. So for the first year, I maintained the early morning communion in their church only for a year or so. But for the first year or so, I maintain that that traditional communion service on DH kept in very much similar way, no, using exactly the same issues they don't before but using an Anglican liturgy and carefully on love them through that. So they came to that. But I did save them from the beginning that when he went down to a certain number that actually would become no problem on really that, you know, that would end. But the other thing we did was Kim and I read about the Wednesday service. I think they had had something before on Wednesday as well. But I developed that and changed it a fair amount. We had a really beautiful, quiet, gentle communion with teaching worship on the Wednesday morning at 10 o'clock on. That helped those 18 people so much so that even when the early Sunday morning one closed, they actually loved coming to the Wednesday on DH. Found a real home there. And I think that eased things because actually, so much change. I mean, when we arrived in that building there, figures of Mary hanging over, you know, people, Jesus on the cross, hanging over the whole corner of the church. And it was really it wasn't beautiful. It wasn't It wasn't judge architecture at its best. It was really oppressive and difficult, and Children would come in and be really it would be uncomfortable at this. Jesus, um, hanging with blood dripping down its body. So we kind of got rid of all of that stuff. And we we got rid of all the pews and way got this clear space. And if you go there today, it's even better now. They doing a fantastic job. And in fact, the church is going from strength to strength they're doing. They want a club Youth congregations now, which is fantastic. But we cleared all that level. The floor under floor heat again painted the church for the first time on the inside, so there was a enormous mouth change. Physical change if that's something that I've done every year, wherever I am is that there's one significant change in the church building every year, at least because actually we need to learn and have a culture that the changes right change is necessary and the church is moving on on DH. And that was certainly true off Saviour summary. And so I think they got used to change. But at the same time, pastorally I think we were. Hopefully we were really careful with those. I mean, it's interesting. There was one of the church wardens. It was difficult, there wasn't. But when I arrived volunteer, it was the existing towards you can imagine. So take a transplant with two existing ones can be quite interesting. One of them was just a blessing, and the other one said to me when I first started, he said, I'm going to be your devil's advocate. You actually used those words Still to these day. I'm shocked that anybody would say that. But many did blessing over the years, he's softened and softness off really, really is on. He and he saw his church fill up and start to do other plants. I think, actually, you know, we want him over. I had a chance to order for about a year, but, you know, actually, over the years, we did win him over. So you know, it's a difficult question. You've asked me there on DH. Probably. I made lots of mistakes as well in bringing too much change, but at the same time, it had to. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been out to do what we did.

Paul Pavlou:   30:20
Yeah, Andi, what about building a vision for that plant? Did you and Kim I have an idea the minute you got there, What you going to do? What did you develop it with the core team that you build at? What were those early days of planning vision?

David McDougall:   30:39
Yeah. So basically, there's a a vision for church planting. It's written in the book. You could just read it and you could just take it and the exit. Right. Okay. This is what we're gonna do, because this is what everybody does. And it's a blueprint for church plants. And so you know that that's going to work his name on a course. That's a load of rubbish on DH. There is no blueprint judge granting. So, you know, leaders need to really take heart about that because actually, vision comes top down on bottom. But it really is both both ways and has to be caught in the context a cz Muchas it as it is, some of it is Listen to, you know, you catch from God and you bring him with you. To a certain extent, there are things in the that God has called me to do you know, in being more sort of evangelistic enough historic. You know, I'm an initiator of the kind. I want to get things going. So So to a certain degree, I bring things with me because of who I am. But that shouldn't I never has actually meant the whole vision off the church, because actually, with the group people, that 35 that came with me from ST Stephen's on with the 18 that were left in say, Do you know when we got together, we actually discovered what the heart of God or what was on the Half God for that community on then you begin to do those things on Def. They are right, they'll be fruitful. And if they aren't you kill him quick because actually it's no, no point in doing things but those things anymore. I think it is that that's something that I've learned over the years, that there are some things the church has been doing for years, the years which we desperately need to let go on. There are some things that we we experimented with. Andi. We need to be continuously experimenting without any fear of failure. But then if it isn't working, say OK, that's not working, we bury it and as I think we're very bad that we just want to keep everything going the same so that actually you know and it just exhausts people what it does. It does more damage than exhausting. What it means is you can't do some of the experimentation that got that. The Holy Spirit is really calling you to do so. You know, vision comes up from the people that you're working with and also comes from the leader that God has made you on DH on as you study the Scriptures together and as you listen for home spirit together, it forms. You have to start with something. So of course, when you plan you, you go in with what you've got, which isn't very much usually. But you go with what you got in any way. You can always do the up in and out thing, you know, because every church can have a vision that's a basic mission, because it should, because it's a biblical called model, if you like. But the essence of vision tightly depends on the context in which you, you know, you go into on DH Really? One of the things they did teach me, Ridley all college in Cambridge was that if the if the liturgy of the life of a church doesn't reflect its neighbourhood, it's never going to reach it. I really I've lived that. I really believe that. And that's one of the things in this concept right now that actually you know, do we have some marriage really reflect our area? No, enough is the art that we do. But we want to do so more more than we are. We want to reflect our area more in our area. We've got incredibly wealthy people were going credibly poor people. We've got everything in between. Does our church reflect that? Does it reflect the multicultural perspective off the aerial in the answer is No. No, enough really? On DSO. Not anymore. You stabbed your question.

Paul Pavlou:   34:34
Yeah, and so what have been on? It doesn't have to be specific to the first plan. What what were some of the clothes off plants? And few because obviously, it's exciting. It's fine. It's adventurous, But quite often we don't hear about just how difficult it is for the planter. For if they have a family, the plant's family, the strange import them. And so I think it's useful for people who are planting who are joining plants for other leaders in neighbouring parishes, actually, to get an understanding of just how difficult it can be for those people, could you share some of the lows of some of the things that you went through as a family?

David McDougall:   35:16
Yeah, really hard to move from ST Stephen's, too. Since ages on DH, Uproot the family way definitely made some mistakes there. Interns. We should have left one of them in their secondary school way could have done more to actually help that. But actually, um, it was it was it is a sacrifice for a clearly family. We've tried not to move too much, actually over the years. But that move, although it was only four miles up the road, was way went into hold. A whole new world, a whole different world, and that that was that was difficult. Looking back the other way, we will not do it, But But in terms of changing the school's on all of that, it was difficult. Five years in two departments and save your summary. I personally here war. If you have a run American, I have any run half marathons. But with you run a marathon, you get to a point where unless you could run through that wall, you're really in trouble and probably stop on in terms of leadership in a church plant. At five years, I really did it and I was timed. It had taken so much out of me on the wards that I had decided that actually that I was to take off two days a week for quite a period of time. I think it's about six or eight months and I took two days off a week. Possibly. You could argue close. You should do that anyway, I don't know. But I think actually, for me that was absolutely crucial because I've seen running hard. I mean, I'm an excitable person. You probably down on. I love life. I love ministry about I'm not afraid of hard work, But I was tired on DH, so those two days were golden on the Italian. Nothing that happened because things have gotten tough was when When you're you've got a young family in ministry, it's important to be there at those horrible hours on that, you know, sort of early afternoon, Early evening on DH. So, actually, you know, you're there with the scene in your and the bathing and the playing and the after school work, you know, homework and all arrested in the early years, you know, it's really important to be there in that period of the day. I think I got that bit right. But then teenage years came and I didn't get it right, because the church was asking me so many evenings. I was out so much, So many meetings. It was crazy on DH one. of my wounds again. Same guy. Actually, Dave Structure came to He said, Don't make the mistake. Don't make the mistake of being out all these evenings, he said, Because it won't help the faith of your Children. They'll just resent you, he said, turning on its head. Now, he said on the early evenings. Aren't any good to be found anywhere. You need to be there in the mid toe toe one o'clock in the morning time so that you could go pick him up for wherever they are on. So we turned it on its head. And from that that day from the challenge today I did three evenings a week for at least two or three years, which at the time was was difficult. I found it really difficult to sort of make that change. And even the church found it difficult. But you know what? That was a absolute rescue. I took my family and to me to do that. Andi told me as well that that delegation and other people can do things. It doesn't have to be the planet. They have to be the picture all the time. You know, I think one of the things I've always wanted to do have enjoyed his team's. I love building strong teams where people can really grow and fly and have, you know, have real joy. Ministry. So, yeah, those are some of the So there are some of the tricky things that way here

Paul Pavlou:   39:15
and how we're speaking about the change element with existing people church to see the difficulties of family. I did. What was your experience, like with other church leaders in the area that you transplanted into how you receive a church? Part of team. Do they even know you were there, you know? Oh, what What was What was that dynamic?

David McDougall:   39:41
Um, I think initially on DH, some of the local clergy were suspicious and unhappy about the idea. I think it took a few years, probably took two or three years. Actually, I'm really involved myself in chapter and, you know, in the Anglican meetings and really get involved in the area to sort of serve, serve them really, and to be of encouragement to them, really took up a few years, But once that happens, actually, I found it. So go. If you end up being really supportive and Then I became area dean as well as vicar of Saint Save Something. I think that really again spoke a lot, saying, actually, you know, we can bless the Anglican system from the inside locked special on weekends of the moan at it from the outside. And so, yeah, I was, you know, the Christian save some brie and every Tina spell phone. And I think that was just showed that I was really committed to the whole area and wanted to see the area go grow on DH. Actually, partly through that Samaras Littleton plant happened because because actually relationships were good. I mean, that was another transplant from ST Saviour's into Littleton and Tim Rise, brilliant guy to keep family. They're really, really tough view into interesting interview, but yeah, so I think in the end, through frame together and through serving and true understanding and quite often, clergy would come and visit since able to see what was going on. I really encourage that I never, never threatened by another vehicle coming into town.

Paul Pavlou:   41:28
And how, and I think I mean, it's mixed everywhere you go in, if you speak too. But I think there is General suspicion off planters coming into areas that maybe other leaders patches if you like. How can we help other leaders embrace Church plant is coming into a neighbouring parish or even in their same passion? How can we help build bridges before that in order to enable more plants toe happen? Do you think, based on your experience

David McDougall:   42:03
well, I think that's what I was saying in a way that actually Indian re chapter quite a lot. The crabs come up there today and you, you know, people debate and talk with each other about these things. And actually, because I was there then because I was a Rodina actually was able to encourage that we didn't have open discussions about church planting. Not that some of the clergy, Everwood, ever once to do it, but actually they become they became more accepting of it. I think also one of the things that Kim's being really good and we've been really good at is his hospitality on DH, you know, hearing Wilkins as well, you know, I just think that we want to reach out and have dinner together with people and sit with them and blessed them when people comes in and we re elected less before you like it's going well. We have candles. We have, you know, kids are amazing. Desserts are. And you know, I think actually, you know you you By loving people serving people and asking them, what can we really pray for? For your situation and for them to not think. Gosh, we're looking at their situation. Is lex transplant situation, you know, on DH. So yeah, I think through through praying, loving, serving on being involved and not shouting from the distance about things. But actually that's Jesus, you know, he was incarnated himself into the world. We need tto be incarnation. Our approach, I think, to ministry and that in itself is sacrificial. And I was actually part of this cave in 19 times has meant I should have been clear in my office a bit and sorting it out. Andi, I was just looking through some of my old diaries last night. I'm just recording some of the things I did in 1990 for asking how on earth did I Man, let's do that much of the year. But I think you know you have to be in it you have to be with people. You have to be involved and and take the rap Sometimes you know, when people were unhappy, I tried to go and see them. Now she's seeing face to face. Something would be prepared to do that. That's that's That's fine. That's their issue. But then at least you can offer one vicar in this film. Mary really loved the fact that when I was clearing out, since that saves a lot of it's stuff, he wanted the statutes of Mary. So he was really happy because I think I should marry back took married down on the back of my in the back of my car. Andi arrived at his judge and he was horrified. I got her on the back seat with, with safety belt around is gonna process it down, you know, hold. I just put it in the back of the mouth. The big W he was, anyway. He was happy about

Paul Pavlou:   45:04
this, but it's better than having to ride on a donkey for miles. So we're approaching. Our time is just zoomed. Buys often doesn't chat. What you speak about the plant that you lead, and you mentioned that you pioneered other planters and you've done, too. What's that? ST Mary's? And hopefully I'll be the third without getting too personal on grilling me too much. What? What would you say? Is there a common pitiful that you seen implanted? Is there Is there something you're really conscious off when you're raising up? It's sending out plants. Is that your mind you want to protect them from as they prepared to go out? Or is it different for every single one? I

David McDougall:   45:59
think I think one of the things that I won't say to plant is is You can't please everybody. You're not gonna place everybody. And if you try to please everybody all the time, you'll end up really not doing much because you put so much energy into trying to face people that then you'll just be consumed by that and the amount of kingdom work you could do. Because actually, conflict is part ofthe the package. I'm afraid that's that's That's how it is. And I think there's something car handle, conflict. I think I think that is a real issue. Actually, I think we need to be able to handle conflict. I've no always been able to handle conflict Well, I really learned along the way so But now I feel that you know I can handle it better. Still don't like it. Hey, conflict. But I love every to love what I was doing, what I was thinking and what we were doing and what we're thinking of the church. But the reality is that people people down, I think another thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is on. I feel this really strongly is that isolation is a really killer. Isolation for leaders is a really killer, and support networks are absolutely crucial. When I was a really whole were encouraged to being to go into groups of three and try and keep those those groups you know into ministry. I was so, so glad. That really whole encouraged me to do that. Honestly, I dated proud and Peter Law, I've travelled with me Elise Years on DH, we formed a little network of the three of us. I mean, I mean other networks as well, so that I'm no enough. I'm no isolated. But this particular network for for 30 years is changing now because they both retired and on DH. I'm quite far away from them. But for 30 years the three of us met for the inside of a day every month for the inside day. Every month for 30 years we met. We chatted, we didn't have it. You know, it wasn't so super spiritually. We met in a pub. We chatted things through. We had a lovely meal. We had a beer together on DH, then way prayed for each other. We said we pray for you. No realistic things We wanted prayer for in the longer term as well until you into the next month. But actually that support network have bean on absolute lifeline to me on there have been other prayer triplets and other support teams on the final trust being associate, being part of the college evangelists, being involved in new wine and sole survivor in the early years, for many years, those support structures so incredibly important because I want to get to the end of ministry, which is, you know, six or seven years off, I want to make it. I wouldn't make it to the post, you know. I know I won't do that if I If I isolate myself if I if I don't have the support system when I don't offer that support system to others. And so I feel that keep. I feel it's so important that a leader a planter, keeps connected because Connexion makes things so much healthier, so, so much stronger. Prioritise your marriage if your marriage on DH family life absolutely crucial and learned to rest well and have hobbies, not just talk about church Qlogic Churchill that I'm in your house. But talk about other things too boring for your wife. You'll find your family party boring. They need to talk about all sorts of things. They don't wanna be here about church all the time on that. These things that I think you're really, really for

Paul Pavlou:   49:58
you is there going to crows in it. There is anything else that you were burning to share today. I perhaps have missed or having asked that you wanted Teo reflect on before we close.

David McDougall:   50:11
I think my final thought would be we need to experiment. We need to be creative. We need to be imaginative. Holy spirit, help us do that. We need to be We need to be courageous and audacious and left turns up. You know, it's not gonna happen that that stuff is really import. Some of my curious have told me that over the years, Of course. Lots, actually. I was like, you're in London and he was always on about being audacious. I agree with him and we need to without fear of a failure. If we plan something and it fails, that's okay. You know, we over the years and puts a leaders in place and it hasn't worked out, and that's really sad. But that's how it is. You do not do it because sometimes it goes wrong. You you continue to do it. Andi, experiment on DH, see where we go. But I think in terms of the Church of England, we are in the most exciting a period of history. I think in terms of actually you really experimenting in all kinds of ways. I praise God for the bishops and the SDF the different ways that they're finally enabling us to really experiment.

Paul Pavlou:   51:26
Yeah, and you've given lots of encouragements and leadership tips along the way. But what if you could pick just one thing? What encouragement or piece of advice would you give Tio perspective, Planter, if you could pick just one thing

David McDougall:   51:42
in the secret place in the quiet place they close to Jesus inwards Bond with the Holy Spirit waiting on the house, bro Got every day. Keep close to Jesus because without him the But we'll see. Yeah, but with it within, it won't handle the storms could rage around, but stay close to Jesus because in the end, the day it if our faith isn't personal and real and if it hasn't got that vitality, then you know it's so very, very important on DH. Stay close to Jesus. He's staying close to you. But will you stay close to him? And you spend that time However you do it, there's no great evangelical blueprint for doing that. That, actually, however, is right for you. But stay close to Jesus and wait on. The Holy Spirit is living in his word. And just let it speak to you on DH. Yeah, stay close to Jesus. That's what final thought

Paul Pavlou:   52:54
on and won a question. I haven't really blast. I want these podcasts not only to help leaders bishops, perspective plant. It's also congregations who maybe incentive churches who want to support you, enjoying church on teams? What what sort of it? And we will finish them. What sort of advice would you give to people in ascending church who are mulling over whether or not they should join the church? Plan T. What's the really important thing for them to be thinking about? What should be their motive for wanting to go to church? I wanted your opinion

David McDougall:   53:32
as really interesting is I thought we finished, but I'm really sorry it just popped into my head. You're speaking because only recently, somebody in our in our judges are established. Church. So wonderful church. They came up to me. This they said to me, You know, I'm I'm really thinking about really thinking about plants joining the club, in fact, that there's a few people like that who said to me, Actually, every time we planted this next one will be the 3rd 1 in this five year period on DH, one couple said. Each time we've planted, I seriously considered it. I think that is wonderful. That is music to my ears, that actually people prayerfully considering each time we do it on the 1st 1 they prayerfully consider it on, The Lord said the second time. But he carefully considered it, Long said on the third time. We don't know yet, But this other person different that you said to me this time you know, really, really prayerfully thinking this through. And so I think if you feel the touch of God about about planting, about helping us to reach this city out for Jesus Christ, if you feel that large, then be talking Teo us or your vic. If you're in another church, be talking to the planters. That's goingto do that and say, You know, I'm feeling this this nudge Can I explore that with you and go talk about it? Somebody? And if you don't want to talk to plants because you feel he's going to sign you up too quick, told to make talk something else on staff, saying, What do you think? You think I might have something to offer on DH? But if you're feeling that nudge, actually that that's most likely to be the Holy Spirit on DH. Andi. So, you know, explore it, don't be close to it, and if the Lord says stay, then stay on DH participate. You grow on DH love being part the judge urine and serve it on. Bless it so you can keep it. Can keep glancing over over the years on doing all it can to serve its community.

Paul Pavlou:   55:46
So I think sometimes when I speak in tow people, I think sometimes that I could think about going to a plan. But I just don't know what I would offer a church plan. And it's almost the same thing. What we said the beginning of a conversation. You don't have to be a specific leader to plan the church. I mean, hey, if God is going to use me in you okay? He can use anyone. You don't have to be a specific person. Do you have a spirit specific gifts? It means something. I think about something my dad said to me is, just look for yourself. And for others, just to be fat, he could be faithful to the word of God. In the airport. You could be available to participate. And if you can have the humility to be teachable and that's all you need on you could be used anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that for me. is. That's really helpful. Thank you, David. Well, if people wanted to connect with you or ST Mary's, what would be some of the ways they could do

David McDougall:   56:48
that? So the way to connect with us is through our website. So if you just put into Google some Mary's actually it will come up really quickly. And the contact details are all there on DH. We've got our Facebook page and different ways, you know, it's pretty easy. Just put in Samaria. Especially not your Papa.

Paul Pavlou:   57:08
Brilliant bus. Thank you for speaking to the podcast. I imagine we'll sign off now and have my one toe one grilling for another hour. No, seriously, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for the plants and you've done. And thank you for being so willing to step into this next phase of leadership that urine and pioneer More plants is in Milton Keynes. Wear so grateful to be here under your leadership. And I'm sure others are too. So so yeah. Thank you for what you're doing. Have a great day. But