'80s Movie Montage
Breaking down our favorite decade of flicks. Hosted by Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke.
'80s Movie Montage
Victor/Victoria
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With special -- and returning! -- guest Howard Casner, Anna and Derek discuss the scene-stealing amazingness of Robert Preston, the glaring ick factor in King and Victoria's relationship, and so much more during their chat of Blake Edwards' Victor/Victoria (1982).
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Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke are the co-hosts of ‘80s Movie Montage. The idea for the podcast came when they realized just how much they talk – a lot – when watching films from their favorite cinematic era. Their wedding theme was “a light nod to the ‘80s,” so there’s that, too. Both hail from the Midwest but have called Los Angeles home for several years now. Anna is a writer who received her B.A. in Film/Video from Columbia College Chicago and M.A. in Film Studies from Chapman University. Her dark comedy short She Had It Coming was an Official Selection of 25 film festivals with several awards won for it among them. Derek is an attorney who also likes movies. It is a point of pride that most of their podcast episodes are longer than the movies they cover.
Howard Casner is a screenwriter and script consultant who has lived in Los Angeles since 2001. He has published two books of short stories, The Starving Artists and Other Stories and The Five Corporations and One True Religion (these are sci-fi, fantasy and horror short stories). He has also published the second edition of his screenwriting book, More Rantings and Ravings of a Screenplay Reader. All are available on Amazon. His podcast Pop Art, in which a guest chooses a movie from popular culture and he will then choose a movie from the art/indie/foreign/classic side of cinema with a connection to it, can be found on Apple, Anchor, Spotify and other streaming platforms.
Your problem, Mr. Marchand, is that you're preoccupied with stereotypes. I think it's as simple as you're one kind of man, I'm another. And what kind are you? One that doesn't have to prove it to myself or anyone. Excuse me.
SPEAKER_04:Hello and welcome to 80s Movie Montage. This is Derek.
SPEAKER_07:And this is Anna.
SPEAKER_04:And that was totally a guy saying that they don't have to prove that they're a guy in a very elegant female voice. But that's their thing.
SPEAKER_07:I think out the gate I'm talking about our conversation with our special returning guest for this episode. But yeah, that is definitely something that makes this movie witches.
SPEAKER_04:Victor Victoria. And that was James Garner who was kind of looking around like am I the only one that sees this
SPEAKER_07:yeah I mean that is what's really funny about the movie is Julie Andrews in particular is such a in terms of like traditional gender appearances like she's very feminine she sounds very feminine like so it's kind of hilarious
SPEAKER_04:like they probably could have gone through like steps to like really play sure like they could have tootsied it up or something yeah yeah but like you gotta let her performance shine right
SPEAKER_07:right and they do at one point uh they they I think it was very intentional there's a scene where I think they're like trying to lower her register
SPEAKER_04:yeah um
SPEAKER_07:so yeah in any case Victor Victoria is the movie that we're covering today and yeah I'm I'm super excited to jump into this one because there is a lot to cover and I think I
SPEAKER_04:did really enjoy it. It was a really... Oh, me too. It was a fun movie.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I think that a lot of new faces, both in front of and behind the camera.
SPEAKER_04:All over.
SPEAKER_07:All over the place. And
SPEAKER_04:some returning guests like Susan Sarandon.
UNKNOWN:Oh, Derek.
SPEAKER_07:Not even guests. So 1982, which that's something else that comes up with Howard, our awesome returning Wow. Wow, okay. And then it won for best music. Okay. So yeah. All right. All right. So that aside, we'll jump in the way that we normally do with the writers first. So yes, one of the Oscar nominations was best adapted screenplay. So this isn't original material. And in fact, I think Howard actually mentions it a couple of times. Like there's been several iterations of this story in film. So the first credited writer is Reinhold... in this version of the film like it's set in 1934 i
SPEAKER_04:want to say so i think so
SPEAKER_07:they didn't veer away from the time or the era i should say and uh i'm gonna call him by his first name because that's easier for me to pronounce reinhold uh
SPEAKER_04:i don't think i could say it again like that
SPEAKER_07:so
SPEAKER_04:i'm not gonna try
SPEAKER_07:beginner's luck yeah he was you know a guy who wore many hats he was an actor director writer um i don't know if i should say obviously but he was german so um Obviously. Obviously. And so a lot of his projects are like German productions. But this I thought was kind of funny. If you go through his credits, writing credits, he has a little bit of a recurring theme. So he did a script called Adam und Eva. And then Victor and Victoria. That's how it initially came across. George George and Georgette. So he does these little, I mean, I think Adam und Eva is probably a different kind of, to
SPEAKER_04:me, sounds a bit more biblical.
SPEAKER_07:Sounds a bit more biblical. And then Victor and Victoria and George and Georgette, maybe those are two variations of the same theme. And then his girl, or I'm sorry, the girl, Irene. So those are some of his credits. All right. So they do give a credit to a gentleman named Hans Holmberg. Okay. Do you think? that that's close enough. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They give him a credit for concept for this story.
SPEAKER_04:So one time Hans was like, what if there's woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman?
SPEAKER_07:Maybe he was buddies with Reinhold. Possibly. So the two of them brainstormed together and it's his only credit. It is his only credit on IMDb. Good job, Hans. Yeah. So there you go. Okay. So the gentleman who adapted it for this film, a very well-known figure in cinema who I don't think we have brought up. Well, maybe in passing, but we haven't brought him up yet. Blake Edwards.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't think we have. It's probably like we've mentioned the Pink Panther stuff in passing, but we haven't focused on him yet.
SPEAKER_07:No. So yes, Blake Edwards, who was the husband of Julie Andrews. So they collaborated a couple of times. Quite convenient. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm completely subjective on the matter because I just love Julie Andrews, so I am giving it a pass, but it's really no—I mean, it happens all the time.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, she's quite talented. Yes. So.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. So he's credited for the screenplay. I mean, by the time this film came along, 1982, he had been in the business for quite a while. His first writing credit was in 1948. Wow,
SPEAKER_04:I don't think I knew that. Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so he's already— extremely extremely established in his career uh and like i mentioned he was the one who got the best adapted screenplay oscar nomination so among some of his like strictly writing credits and now look uh put it out there right away he's the director of this film there is a lot of overlap between credits in terms of what he wrote and what he directed he directed a ton of his own material but for oscar credits or i'm sorry writing credits we have My sister, Eileen, this happy feeling. He did some TV. He did a TV series called Mr. Lucky. Richard Diamond, private detective. That
SPEAKER_04:sounds cool.
SPEAKER_07:If ever there was a detective named Richard Diamond, sounds like it.
SPEAKER_04:Peter Gunn.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know Peter Gunn. I've heard of it, but I don't know what the show was about. And then you just mentioned it. I would say probably most people know him for the Pink Panther franchise.
SPEAKER_04:That was predominantly what I associate with Blake Edwards is the Pink Panther and like
SPEAKER_07:their sequels. Yeah. The Pink Panther strikes again. Revenge of the Pink Panther. Trail of the Pink Panther. Curse of the Pink Panther. Son of the Pink Panther. And then the 2006 reboot that has Steve Martin in it, he gets a credit for the characters.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Some
SPEAKER_07:of his credits for all that.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, yeah. If you only knew him for the Pink Panther, you would know him for several movies.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:and— obviously he's done so much more
SPEAKER_07:it definitely like I've seen a couple of for sure I've seen like the original probably seen the a couple of the first sequels
SPEAKER_04:yeah no it's got those movies have some amazing Peter Sellers yeah does your dog bite no gets bit by a dog that is not my dog great moments we're cutting that out
SPEAKER_07:yes no so but that actually demonstrates a really good point and that I totally can see why that humor really works for some people my dad actually really enjoyed the pink panther movies
SPEAKER_04:yeah oh my god if i told my dad that joke right now instead of the crickets that we just had those crickets would have been replaced with hilarious laughter
SPEAKER_07:which I think that's great that's great that I mean comedy is so subjective so I don't I don't very rarely I'm like oh that's not funny and you're stupid to think it's funny I that's great that's great that other I know the eyebrow raise I'm just saying that wasn't really my kind of humor but it's okay doesn't matter
SPEAKER_04:I'm surprised I thought you would because it's also mixed with like just a ton of like slapsticky kind of
SPEAKER_07:humor yeah I mean my favorite blake edwards movie is the great race i love that movie definitely has a lot of comedic elements in it and i think that's a fantastic film he did i'm assuming it's connected to the tv series he did the film gun um i didn't realize actually that there was just a film called inspector cluso i don't think i knew that either yeah other people might know him from so totally aside from all the pink panther films he did the film or wrote it 10 with the Okay. And Bo Derek, and I think it does also have Julie Andrews in it. It's been quite a while since I've viewed it, but he also wrote A Fine Mess, Skin Deep, and Switch. So moving on to Blake Edwards. What was Switch? That was the one with, it was like body, like kind of like an adult Freaky Friday. There were so many of those. Yes. There were
SPEAKER_02:so many of those. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:There was that, like father, like son, right? That was another one, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. The one with Steve Martin and... Oh, my goodness. He did a... All of Me?
SPEAKER_07:Oh, yeah, with Lily Tomlin. That's it, yeah. Yes, yeah. That was a big, like, draw, I guess, in terms of stories. If you
SPEAKER_04:ever get a chance to see the movie poster for that, like, three-fourths of the movie poster are... It's just text explaining to you what happened. What it is
SPEAKER_07:about. That doesn't bode well. So as far as his... directing credits. Again, you're going to see, or hear, I should say, a lot of repeats. I mean, he didn't just direct his own material. He directed Breakfast Activities as probably the most notable exception to, not his rule, but what he tended to do. Um, but yeah, I mean, he directed This Happy Feeling, Operation Petticoat. That's another one. Oh,
SPEAKER_04:wait, was that a movie or a series? I think both, but he
SPEAKER_07:directed the film.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Uh, And, you know, all those Pink Panther movies, except for the reboot, he directed them all. I already mentioned The Great Race. He directed that as well as Gun, Ten, A Fine Mess, Blind Date, Switch. So, again, overwhelmingly, he directed the stuff that he wrote, but not always. All right. So, yeah. Okay. Moving on to cinematography. Dick Bush is the gentleman who shot this film. And he know he had uh i think probably a good working relationship with edwards he was the dp on a couple of the pink panther movies among some of his more notable credits earlier in his career he did when dinosaurs ruled the earth nice yeah the hound of the baskervilles
SPEAKER_04:oh yeah that was a favorite sherlock holmes story of mine when i was a
SPEAKER_07:kid oh i didn't realize that was a sherlock holmes
SPEAKER_04:because there was kind of like a supernatural feel to it but of course it It was, you know, when Holmes breaks it down, there's no supernatural. There's no supernatural anything. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:He was the DP on specifically Trail of the Pink Panther, Curse of the Pink Panther, and Son of the Pink Panther. So those were some of the sequels that came a little bit later on.
SPEAKER_04:He was big into the Of the Pink Panther franchise.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, yeah. He did The Journey of Natty Gann. I don't know. At some point, maybe we'll cover that, as well as Little Monsters.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:He was a cinematographer on that, and... He did switch, so that's why he comes back to work with Edwards. Okay, so this is a familiar name.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:And one that, okay, it's been a minute since we've talked about him. Talking about the editor? No. Oh. Music. Okay, yeah. Yes. So, Henry Mancini. You know what's funny is that the last time we brought him up was Which was about six months ago. It wasn't our season finale, but it was like our one holiday movie that we did when you and I took on Santa Claus the movie. Oh, okay. Okay. And he was the composer on that. What's funny
SPEAKER_04:is that- What an odd movie that was.
SPEAKER_07:But I do love it.
UNKNOWN:I know.
SPEAKER_07:It's like two different movies, but he, at the time when we brought him up, he had 208 composing credits.
SPEAKER_04:He has 5,367 now.
SPEAKER_07:They did add one. Holy cow. And he did get an Oscar nomination a couple times over for that franchise. So yeah, like I said, it's been a minute since we've talked about him. So I'm going to go over, I mean, this guy. This
SPEAKER_04:guy. A
SPEAKER_07:lot of Oscar love for Henry Mancini over the course of his career. Deservedly so. Yes. So I mean, as I mentioned, a couple hundred credits, so prolific career. I'm covering the ones that... mostly the ones that got the Oscar love.
SPEAKER_04:And then I'll cover the other ones. And then we'll be back in about three hours with our list compiled.
SPEAKER_07:So he gets his first Oscar nomination. And look, just to put it out there, he didn't just do scores. He got Oscar wins sometimes, sometimes just nominations for original songs. So I may not differentiate between all of them. I might just say nomination or win. But it could be Okay, great. So his first Oscar nom was for The Glenn Miller Story. Oh, okay. He does get his double win for score and song for Breakfast at Tiffany's. So that's, I guess, maybe his first collaboration with Edwards. He gets another nom for Bachelor in Paradise. Not.
SPEAKER_04:I'm sorry, what?
SPEAKER_07:Not the ABC show that we love that I still don't understand why. Anyway, he gets another win for Days of Wine and Roses. He gets a nom for Charade. And then to your point, he does get a nomination for the original Pink Panther score. He is credited for several of, gosh, maybe all of them, of the original sequels. So Return of the Pink Panther. He gets another, well, he gets Best Original Song nomination for the Pink Panther Strikes Back. gun is credited for Revenge of the Pink Panther, Trail of the Pink Panther, Curse of the Pink Panther, Son of the Pink Panther. So he's attached to all of it. He gets another nomination for Dear Heart as well as The Great Race. More nominations. He gets a double nomination for Daring Lily. I don't know that film. This, um, I probably had a hard time with it last time too. He gets another nomination for I, Garris the
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Not familiar with that.
SPEAKER_07:Not familiar either. As well as sometimes a great notion. He gets another double nomination for the movie 10. Double nom. He also worked on, so a couple of these, no Oscar love, but he worked on Mommy Dearest, the TV miniseries, The Thorn Birds.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, man. Impossible to illustrate how people were obsessed with that. Yeah, I
SPEAKER_07:don't... It was a whole thing.
SPEAKER_04:Like TV events. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Because like the 80s had like the Thorn Birds, North and South, that kind of thing. But TV is just a whole different landscape today. And some of the same terminology is used. But when we say like limited series or things like that, like structurally, they're kind of the same. But they're just– I don't know. It's different.
SPEAKER_04:It is very
SPEAKER_07:different. So he gets his last– Oscar nom. Well, okay. After the Thorn Birds, he did Santa Claus the movie, which we covered maybe second to last episode of season three. So we encourage you to go back to that one. He does The Great Mouse Detective. Oh. Yeah. And then so as I was saying, his last Oscar nom is for That's Life. But then he also does Blind Date.
SPEAKER_04:Bruce Willis? I believe so.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. All right. So that is the very pro I mean, will we cover him again? We could do 10, because I think that was 1980.
SPEAKER_04:Are the Pink Panther movies the 70s?
SPEAKER_07:Mm-hmm. Mommy Dearest we could do.
SPEAKER_04:Oh.
SPEAKER_07:So, okay. Moving on to film editing, Ralph E. Winters. I thought for sure we, I don't know, something about the name seemed really familiar, but-
SPEAKER_04:Sounds very familiar.
SPEAKER_07:Very familiar, but I don't know. I don't, there's been nothing of his filmography to suggest that we've covered him before. In any case, he was the editor on this film. And, you know, as with Edwards, by the time this film came along, he was extremely established. Like he'd been around for a while. I mean, he got his start back in like, I think the 40s. Among some of his credits, he cut Gaslight, The Thin Man Goes Home, The 1949 Little Women. So that's what I'm saying. Like he'd already been around for several decades. He did On the Town. He did get an Oscar win. I mean, he was nominated several times and actually does have a couple wins, actually. His first win was for King Solomon's Mines. He gets another nomination for Quo Vadis. He does Kiss Me, Kate. He gets another nomination for Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. He does High Society, which is essentially the I don't know if it's a musical, but it has like Grace Kelly and I want to say, well, a couple other like big names, but it's like a remake, so to speak, of the Philadelphia story. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So that's the only reason I bring it up. He gets another win for Ben-Hur. So this is what I'm saying. Like he's been around for a good while. He does Butterfield 8. He also was on a couple of the Pink Panther movies. He did cut the the original. He cut the Pink Panther. This is interesting. He has an uncredited credit for Trail of the Pink Panther, but he has a legitimate credit for Curse of the Pink Panther. He gets another nomination for The Great Race. He works on the 1968 The Thomas Crown Affair. He gets another nomination. So this concludes his Oscar love. He gets his last nomination for Koch. He does the 1976 King Kong.
SPEAKER_04:Was that who was in that one? I want to
SPEAKER_07:say that was. Oh, my gosh. Jessica Lange. And was it Jeff Daniel? No.
SPEAKER_04:Jeff Bridges. No. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Bridges. Jeff Bridges. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:One of the Jeffs. Yeah. Jeff Bridges.
SPEAKER_04:Jessica Lange. Charles Grodin. Jeff
SPEAKER_07:Bridges. Grodin is like the baddie. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. He does cut 10 as well as cut throat. Island so
SPEAKER_04:wait a minute but no nomination
SPEAKER_07:no nomination all right we are at the stars of the film and of course of course we begin with Julie Andrews who plays Victoria Grant slash Victor I don't know if they gave her alter ego like last name I don't think so yeah yeah but she is Victor Victoria she is in this film and she did get a Best Actress Oscar nomination for it I mean I love her and surprisingly she um for for the length of time that she's been in the industry I think maybe perhaps she's just extremely selective in terms of like what she takes she she didn't have as many credits as I thought she would for having been around for as long as she has been um and I mean she had so much success at out the gate with her career One Oscar win was for Mary Poppins.
SPEAKER_04:That is what I always remember her from originally. She's amazing. That's the first memory that I have of her in a role. She's Mary Poppins, y'all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I love her. Nobody can be Mary Poppins the way that she was Mary
SPEAKER_04:Poppins. But then second, I think of her as Maria. Yes.
SPEAKER_07:That's probably the character I think of first.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think... A lot of people probably would share that sentiment, but I didn't, I never saw the sound of music until much later.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. So yes. Um, and she kind of has like almost back, I think back to back. So she wins for Mary Poppins. She gets nominated best actress for the sound of music. Come on. She should, I think she should have won as well. I just completely showcase what a stunningly beautiful voice she has
SPEAKER_04:very charismatic like so much energy yeah
SPEAKER_07:yeah she was amazing which that's so hard that's so hard when you have these two iconic roles right at the beginning of your career and also two extremely wholesome roles like i have read that maybe and i don't know if this has anything to do with But it was hard to move away from that kind of viewpoint of her that she's just this like super wholesome type of person that you couldn't really have her and anything that maybe had a little bit more edginess to it. So sometimes she would seek out roles that really like played against that image of her. I
SPEAKER_04:could see that.
SPEAKER_07:So, yeah. But among some of her other credits, Thoroughly Modern. Okay. So she's in those. And then also, if... I mean, I don't know how you don't know Julianne. Like, she is just a very identifiable celebrity. If you saw a picture of her, I think you would instantly know who it was. But maybe some people know her voice only from her participation in the Shrek movies as well. I
SPEAKER_04:had no idea.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:she's... Like, literally until just now, I did not know that she was a voice for any character in that.
SPEAKER_07:She's not in the first one, but she is, I guess... She would say, oh, my gosh, Cameron. What's her name?
SPEAKER_04:Diaz.
SPEAKER_07:Thank you. She is
SPEAKER_04:Fiona.
SPEAKER_07:Thank you. She is Fiona's mother. Yeah. In the series. And so
SPEAKER_04:I don't think you see them until the second movie anyways.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I don't know if you see the dad. Isn't the dad John Cleese?
SPEAKER_04:Well, the dad is like the toad, right? Or the frog that that's the secret he's hiding, I think, is that he had to be kissed to be turned into like his human. I think I could be totally wrong. It has
SPEAKER_07:been a very long time since I've watched this.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Call to action. Please let me know what the plot of Shrek 2 is.
SPEAKER_07:But yeah, she's the queen and she's in Shrek 2, Shrek the third and Shrek forever after. So although not in the first, she is in all the other subsequent films as well as actually, I didn't know this until I went through the research. She's Gru's mom in Despicable Me. Okay. So she is in the first, not in the second, but she's in Despicable Me. me third as three as well as minions the rise of grew the most recent one yes yeah um it seems like perhaps in her later career she has seemed to focus more so on voice work instead of being in front of the camera so she does voice work in aquaman
SPEAKER_04:in what aquaman
SPEAKER_07:yeah she is i don't know this character because i can't say that i really um resonated with this film so i have very little recall of anything
SPEAKER_04:in it. Honestly, I kind of peaced out of this movie within the first five minutes when he drops into the sub and there's just this like crazy guitar riff.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm like, oh, oh no. She's the
SPEAKER_07:character Kerithin.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. So. That limits it to me to like almost anyone who's not Aquaman.
SPEAKER_07:And then she also does voice work for that really popular TV series, Bridgerton. Oh. So. Okay. That's Julie Andrews. Next up, we have her love interest James Garner Mr.
SPEAKER_04:Marchand
SPEAKER_07:King Marchand I mean I'm very curious I wish he's no longer with us but I wish that I knew what his thoughts were of that character because in some ways his character because personally I don't find it to be a very likable character I think Victoria can do much better than him. Um, and we, we go, we talk at length with Howard about why it's a hard character to root for and
SPEAKER_04:why it's hard. I would say that to the extent, it seems like Jim Gardner was a pretty well-liked actor and celebrity. My sense is that even for that time, he would be like, yeah, I don't, I don't agree with this thing that my character did. I
SPEAKER_07:hope so. I hope that that's what he thought. I, which the reason why I say that is because then that that takes a certain kind of courage to say yes I will play this role that's arguably not a likable role sure but then that's why I'm like oh I wonder what he thought of it because like did he adhere to the same kind of like way of thinking that this character had I don't know anyway not to not to put anything out there to say that but James Garner so he had a super prolific career as well a lot of like Either like the hard-boiled detective or the Western cowboy type. Like he did a lot of that kind of work. Yeah. So also by the time this film came along, he had been around for a while. He was in the film A Periscope, the 1959– because I think there's another version of it. He's in that. Probably his maybe most recognizable role is the TV series Maverick. It's either that or the
SPEAKER_04:Rockford Files, which he did– It was on longer. That's true. But then there were, I think, spinoffs for The Maverick Show and then a movie with Mel Gibson where he was kind of his dad.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. So he's also in The Great Escape, Hour of the Gun. This I thought was funny. He's in these two films. The first is called, which has its own implications, Support Your Local Sheriff. So he plays a character named Jason. And then there's another film called Support Your Local Gunfighter. Yeah, I
SPEAKER_04:don't know. I remember kind of enjoying those when I was a kid, but I hesitate. I didn't know
SPEAKER_07:you knew those films.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I know. I hesitate to say too much because I'm like, I don't remember them at all. So I don't want to say. So is
SPEAKER_07:it the same character that's credited differently on IMDb? Because the other character from Support Your Local Gunfighter, he's credited as a character named Latigo.
SPEAKER_04:That I don't know. So I don't know
SPEAKER_07:if his full name is Jason Latigo. And in one film, he's credited as Jason and the other one he's credited as Latigo or if they are two totally different characters.
SPEAKER_04:My familiarity with these two movies does not approach first name basis, sadly.
SPEAKER_07:Inquiring minds want to know. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:I do not know.
SPEAKER_07:So he, to your point, like he does other TV series. He's in one called Nichols. Then the Biggie, the Rockford Files.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:He does. I
SPEAKER_04:have that damn theme song in my head right now just because, and I'm not going to do it, but yeah, it's in my head just because we've said the name. I
SPEAKER_07:guess he reprises his Maverick. He comes back. for another TV show called Brett Maverick.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_07:So, okay. So, you know what? As much as, like, it's kind of annoying to me that they do all these reboots of shows that had gone off the air, like, I don't know why Murphy Brown's the first one that I thought of, but Murphy Brown, they've done that a lot lately, but it's really not anything new. It seems like they've been doing that forever. So, he does get an Oscar. He was an Oscar-nominated actor. He gets the Best Actor nomination for Murphy's Romance
SPEAKER_04:oh yes
SPEAKER_07:yeah so he's in that uh The Distinguished Gentleman you mentioned it a minute ago he is in the film version of Maverick that stars um
SPEAKER_04:Mel Gibson Mel Gibson is Brett Maverick but at the end you realize that um like I think he's Sheriff Zane Cooper but he was he was his dad the whole time okay so it's like was that just that normal character and they changed I don't know it's very confusing I never watched the original show with him as
SPEAKER_07:Maverick.
SPEAKER_04:So I
SPEAKER_07:didn't know. I didn't either. And then after the Rockford Files TV series, he did a ton of Rockford Files TV movies. There's like eight of them. Hell yeah. So you just get coming back and coming back to that. Well, he was also in My Fellow Americans, Twilight, Space Cowboys. Maybe younger generations know him as the elder version of Ryan Gosling in The Notebook. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my goodness. Yes. I bet a lot of people would think of him. Yeah. Is
SPEAKER_07:that that character? Yes. Yeah. So kind of heartbreaking. I mean, you come to realize like they hold out on you, but you come to realize that Ryan Gosling and Rachel McAdams are the younger versions of him. And oh my goodness, super well-known actress that I'm just completely blanking on the name, but those two and she, well, additional irony, she is suffering from dementia. So he is like there to take care. It's, it's all very heart wrenching. So he's in that.
SPEAKER_04:And then he built a house. It turned out pretty good.
SPEAKER_07:They had a great life together.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um, and then in addition to like, already, I've mentioned just like so much TV work, but he did even more TV work. So he had a very busy career. That was James Garner. Okay. Moving on to, oh my goodness. My absolute favorite.
SPEAKER_04:I'm And that starts with a T. And that rhymes with P. And that stands for Robert Preston.
UNKNOWN:What is that from?
SPEAKER_04:That's from The Music Man.
SPEAKER_07:Okay, that's right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Which I...
SPEAKER_04:In The Music Man, the P stands for pool.
SPEAKER_07:You learn something new every day about your partner, I guess. And I had no idea that you knew The Music Man
SPEAKER_04:so well. Big fan of that, too. Yeah. I had
SPEAKER_07:no idea.
SPEAKER_04:I went and saw it when I was in elementary school, I think. They took us to go see a play. It was... It was hilarious. And then I saw the movie. So, yeah, I enjoyed it quite a bit.
SPEAKER_07:Do you want to keep taking over? No, I just want to get the name. So, yes, Robert Preston. He is amazing in this film as Tati Todd. So amazing that he did get a Best Supporting Actor nomination for it. I mean, when we were talking to Howard, I was like, how could he have not have won? And he rightly brings up that. Of course, I'm just blanking on all the names right now, but from an officer and a gentleman. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:yeah, yeah. Lou Gossett. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:Thank you. So he won instead. So Preston's career, though, I mean, you already mentioned The Music Man. I'm going to just have to watch more of his films because I wasn't really familiar with his work. And he was just such a delight in this movie. that I want to watch other stuff that he's done.
SPEAKER_04:When you're kind of like stealing the show or stealing the scene when you're like sharing that scene with Julie Andrews, that's pretty impressive.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. Amongst some of his credits, the reason I put this one in, so he's in a film called Northwest, two words, Northwest Mounted Police. I don't know if it's that notable of a film. I think it has Gary Cooper in it, but the reason why I bring it up is because it's actually the first film to have A female editor that won for best editing. Okay. Yeah. And like Hoochins or something. So he was in that. He was in the film The Lady Gambles, The Last Frontier, The Music Man, How the West Was Won. He is in a 1972 film called Child's Play. Oh, really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Not the same, I'm assuming. No Chucky.
SPEAKER_07:No Chucky.
SPEAKER_04:No doll. He would be a great Chucky, though. You think he would be a great Chucky? That's exactly what I mean. Okay. I think he would be a great Chucky. Can you imagine it? I
SPEAKER_07:mean, it would be a whole different kind of movie, but sure. I could be game for that. He was in Mame. He was also in The Last Starfighter. This is going to be kind of a recurring comment that I make for most of these people. A lot of TV work. I think I've mentioned almost entirely films. Yeah. But he did do a lot of TV.
SPEAKER_04:Including the TV movie with the fun title of Finnegan Beginnigan.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, I love that. Yeah. I love that. Okay, moving on to not Susan Sarandon, but Leslie Ann Warren.
SPEAKER_04:She looked more like Susan Sarandon in Clue. Sure. Maybe.
SPEAKER_07:There is a lot of similar attributes. I
SPEAKER_04:think it was like the hair color in Clue. For sure, that too. Yeah,
SPEAKER_07:like the reddish
SPEAKER_04:hue.
SPEAKER_07:So she plays Norma Cassidy Which I think is– like I think the point of the character is she's kind of a mashup of a lot of old Hollywood starlets. But she looks dead on Jean Harlow.
SPEAKER_04:She is. For many people, she is the favorite character in this movie.
SPEAKER_07:She's great. And she also got Oscar love. She was nominated for Best Supporting Actress for this role. And she's still very much working to this day. As with several of the other people that we've mentioned, lots of TV work. But she's actually gone between TV and film pretty easily. I mean, she was in The Happiest Millionaire. Now, in contrast to like Julie Andrews or James Garner, this was much earlier. For her, this was earlier in her career. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So she was in The Happiest Millionaire. This title is a mouthful. The one and only genuine original family band. Okay. So that's a movie. Okay. She was on the TV series Mission Impossible. So I don't know if younger generations realize that like before was the Tom Cruise franchise. It was like a TV show that did not include Tom Cruise.
SPEAKER_04:If you string all the hours together from like the movies at this point, there's probably more of Tom Cruise as part of like the Mission Impossible team than the old series. Because I don't think there were like a ton of seasons of that
SPEAKER_07:no but if like what i don't know if it was a half hour an hour my guess is it was an hour
SPEAKER_04:feels like it would be an hour yeah you gotta wrap things up so half an hour is not enough time not enough time
SPEAKER_07:uh she was in harry and walter go to new york there's a couple um 80s movies a night in heaven which technically we could cover uh yes to your point she was one of the main characters she's miss scarlet i believe in clue and we did She did Clue mid-season last year, so season three, and we definitely encourage you to go back to that episode to listen to our thoughts on her there. I mean, everybody. There's not a single bad performance in Clue.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_07:No, there's not. Yeah. Everybody knocked it out of the park. She was in Twin Falls, Idaho, The Limey. She gets an uncredited credit for teaching Mrs. Tingle. She's in Secretary. And then later in her career is when a lot of the TV work– is more recurrent. She was in Will and Grace. That's another show that did like its reboot even though it had gone off the air. Yeah. So she was in that. Desperate Housewives in plain sight.
SPEAKER_04:She was in a Bob Seger music video too.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, okay. Yeah, there you go. Okay, moving on to Webster's Dad.
SPEAKER_04:Oh man, Alex Karras. We just immediately just were like, oh, there's Webster's Dad.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I mean, and I say that in a really effective Yeah. So Alex Karras, is he he's like one of the guys that like I think we've covered a couple others were like they were all originally like football players. That's accurate.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, he
SPEAKER_07:was. most of the stuff that he does he doesn't really play characters
SPEAKER_04:i don't yeah it's we we've seen that with a few football players yeah have we seen it with any basketball other than cream but like not to the same degree or like
SPEAKER_07:baseball players i can't really think of anyone certainly not hockey players um so yeah something about football players that they are able to transition into acting
SPEAKER_04:interesting
SPEAKER_07:yeah
SPEAKER_04:so not gronk though
SPEAKER_07:no no
SPEAKER_04:sorry i
SPEAKER_07:mean look, it's none of my business, but I think he should really start leaning away from the whole, like, I'm just a stupid guy who's like, I don't even know what's going on around me. Like,
SPEAKER_04:give me some professor Gronk. Yeah, exactly. Dr. Gronk.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Okay. So in this film, Karis plays squash Bernstein pretty much like, well, he is the, he's the heavy for King Marshawn. Like he's, he's his like protector, his bodyguard. And yeah, I mean, look, probably there is for sure a certain generation that is like that's webster's dad and that is his one notable tv credit he actually does have like several other like film credits among them he was in blazing saddles he was mungo right yes yeah yeah uh the great lester boggs this is a title
SPEAKER_04:oh i'm sorry he was mongo not mungo
SPEAKER_07:that's okay apologies that's that's more than okay he was in Jacob Tutu meets the hooded fang haven't the slightest idea what that I
SPEAKER_03:said I said uh-huh like I knew it was but no I don't
SPEAKER_07:he's in Porky's problematic among problematic films in this era very problematic
SPEAKER_04:it's so like enthusiastically so it's like you just gotta kind of look at it as its own thing like I guess there are some movies that kind of adopted that maybe Maybe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So he's in that as well as Against All Odds.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. We'll probably get that just so we can talk about that Phil Collins song.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. All right. Last on our list, another very familiar face, but it's been a very long time since we've talked about him,
SPEAKER_04:John Rhys-Davies. A criminally underutilized John Rhys-Davies
SPEAKER_07:in this movie. I mean, he is for sure going strong in this movie. Well, as of this recording, in just a couple weeks time, he is going to make his return as Sala in Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny. Is
SPEAKER_04:that what it's called? Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, it is. So in this film, he is Andre Cassell. So he is, I guess like the, he's almost like the, I guess the club manager kind
SPEAKER_04:of.
SPEAKER_07:He
SPEAKER_04:seems real interested in the success of their performance as it relates to the success of the club. Yeah. There's a lot of like just very enthusiastic applause that you see from him. He doesn't get to do a lot. He doesn't. No, he does not get to do
SPEAKER_07:much. Yeah. Like I mentioned, he's an extremely busy guy. I think he really, really likes to work. He has 269 acting credits so far.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_07:So still, like I said, going strong. And as mentioned, I think that perhaps there's two really notable franchises that people probably know him from. The first of which is the Indiana Jones franchise so he is in the original I just call it Raiders of the Last Ark they like retconned the title
SPEAKER_04:it was originally yeah everything is now Indiana Jones and
SPEAKER_07:yeah so he's in Raiders um not understandably in Temple of Doom but he does come back for Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade which we've covered both those films so highly encourage you guys to go back to both those episodes Raiders was gosh that was all the way back in season season one. Last Crusade would have been early season three.
SPEAKER_04:It's like 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_07:So yeah. So go check those out. I added this just because we've waited in line and have heard this many a time at Disneyland. He has an IMDB credit for this. Oh, really? An uncredited credit. For the ride. For the ride. Yeah. So the ride at Disneyland is is called indiana jones and the temple of the forbidden eye so that's the ride and because often you're waiting quite a while to actually experience the ride sometimes they have like little videos or whatever and
SPEAKER_04:so he they last about five minutes and you'll see it probably 30 times yeah reach the end of the line
SPEAKER_07:i think he maybe has a cameo but it's mostly voice work um he's narrating it
SPEAKER_04:he's in it very briefly very briefly but
SPEAKER_07:um yeah so he has a great Credited credit for that. As mentioned, he– and some of the trailers on TV, like you see quick clips of him. So he is in Dial of Destiny, which comes out I think on the 30th of June. So outside of that, some of his other credits, he's in Grizzly 2 Revenge, King Solomon's Mines, The Living Daylights.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, really? The James Bond movie.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of TV miniseries, a couple other probably more notable ones, he was in War and Remembrance. as well as Great Expectations. Uh, to my knowledge, these have nothing to do with Jurassic Park, but he's in The Lost World as well as Return to the Lost World. Okay. He was in the TV series version of The Untouchables. Hmm. So we did that film. Uh, what? That would have been season two, I think. Or maybe, you know what? That might have been the, um, opener of season three. Okay. I apologize.
SPEAKER_02:I believe you. So
SPEAKER_07:go check that one out. Um, um there's perhaps a story because i think the show was pretty popular for a time he was on the tv show sliders
SPEAKER_04:yeah that was a cool show that reminds me a bit like um man i'm gonna annoy so many people when i say this about doctor who but doctor who always felt to me particularly like the really earlier old old seasons where the imagination just like really by quite a bit reached beyond what effects could could really like live up to and so i had like decent effects for for like that era of TV but still like wonky TV effects but cool like it was like multiverse before the multiverse became a thing
SPEAKER_07:everything is multiverse though right now yeah I was thinking about the other day I was like why is everything multiverse I'm kind of over it but anyway the other franchise that I was alluding to that probably a lot of people know him from is the Lord of the Rings
SPEAKER_04:yeah Gimli
SPEAKER_07:mm-hmm so He's in all those films. He's in Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, Return of the King.
SPEAKER_04:In The Two Towers, he's also the voice of Treebeard. Oh. Yeah. Okay. The big walking ent that's carrying Mary and Pippin around. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Okay. Oh, that's cool. He actually has a little bit of a reteaming with Julie Andrews because he's also in The Princess Diaries 2 Royal Engagement.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, nice. So that's kind of fun, right?
SPEAKER_07:I just thought this was funny because in a manner of speaking, it feels redundant. He's in a film called Apocalypse Pompeii.
SPEAKER_03:I'm
SPEAKER_07:like, you could either say Apocalypse or Pompeii. I get a pretty good idea of what's probably going to happen.
SPEAKER_04:It's Pompeii.
SPEAKER_07:And then just in addition to all that work, as expected with over 200 credits, he's done a lot of TV appearances and other work.
SPEAKER_04:He was in a series on, I think it was an MTV series, that was like Like the Shannara Chronicles. And so the Shannara series were these books written by Terry Brooks that felt like they were very much like derivative of Tolkien's work, but like more modern. Okay. So he was in that. But even though I had read some of those books, I watched one episode and I'm like, this is an MTV show disguising itself as a WB show and I cannot watch it. You have standards. I mean, they're not high. But you have them. But I do have them,
SPEAKER_07:yeah. All right. Film synopsis.
SPEAKER_04:Hmm.
SPEAKER_07:What could it be? A struggling female soprano finds work playing a male-female impersonator, but it complicates her personal life.
SPEAKER_04:I bet it would.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I think that's pretty fair.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:It's fine.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. It's fine.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Because, I mean, they do an oak Actually, they do a pretty good job. You do have, you know, kind of that other subplot of the falling out between Norma and King. Got
SPEAKER_04:the whole Inspector
SPEAKER_07:Clouseau thing.
SPEAKER_04:So
SPEAKER_07:I think it works
SPEAKER_04:for me. I've certainly read worse.
SPEAKER_07:Me too. All right. On that note, let's get into it with Howard. Let's do
SPEAKER_04:it.
SPEAKER_07:All right. We are so excited to have this guest on the show. This is a very special returning guest, but it's been a minute. It's been a couple minutes because he was back on the show all the way in season two, two years ago. At that time, we had a great conversation. about Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. So we definitely encourage everybody to go back to that episode if they want to hear our thoughts on that flick. But today we have back on the show Howard Kasner. Howard is a screenwriter. He is a script consultant, multiple published books. And guess what? He also happens to be a podcaster. That's right. That's right. We're so excited. And we're honestly so fortunate as well because we've been on his show before the show is called pop art it is this wonderful premise where he takes two films the guest chooses one that maybe is more you know like pop culture so in that regard um in the zeitgeist and then he chooses a film that perhaps is less well known and and i gotta tell you from our personal experiences nobody does better than putting together two films
SPEAKER_04:yeah no the matches the match each time has been amazing amazing and just i just really enjoy the concept behind the podcast it's a lot of fun
SPEAKER_07:so we've been very honored to be on his show and we are just as honored to have him back so welcome howard
SPEAKER_01:well thank you for having me thank you for the kind words and i'm very excited to be here i had a great time last time have a great had a great time when you were on my show so yeah yay
SPEAKER_07:well this is i'm super excited about this one i mean i think derrick you had said that you'd never seen victor victoria
SPEAKER_04:that is correct okay i had never seen it i was like many of these movies from the 80s that i had some awareness of i just had this vague recognition that yes that is a movie
SPEAKER_07:and probably like oh julie andrews isn't
SPEAKER_04:it yeah i had no idea i had no idea whatsoever what it was about
SPEAKER_07:okay and i had only really seen a couple of the song and dance sequences so i was fairly like new to the film as well so howard first question question just curious do you have a recollection of the first time that you saw this film or perhaps like what your first impression of it was how it hit you
SPEAKER_01:well i saw it when it opened
SPEAKER_07:okay
SPEAKER_01:oh gosh what year again was this i
SPEAKER_07:want to
SPEAKER_04:say 82 you should want to say it because that's correct okay it was 19
SPEAKER_01:yeah i was in chicago at the time um I really enjoyed it. I really like it. I remember it has issues. It was very big, of course, in the gay community because it was doing some new things that we didn't see often in films at the time. And sometimes, actually, the more memory I have of it is there was a bar in Chicago called Sidetracks, and it was a video bar. And every Sunday would be Broadway night. And they would show videos from... musical numbers, things like that, from movies, from stage. Every time the Tony Awards was on, we knew we were going to have a lot of new videos to watch, things like that. And there were certain scenes that would show over and over again from Victor Victoria. The big one is when he says, make your shoulders bigger, your arms this, your arms that. Remember, you're a drag queen. And the audience, of course, just would laugh, no matter how many times they'd show it. There are other scenes that would show from it, like, you know, I think the perfect woman could change you, and Robert Preston says, I think the perfect woman could change you. So... It was very important in spite of certain, a lack of cowardice. No, not a lack of cowardice, a show of cowardice on Blake Edwards' part because of one plot turn. That was very important to us. This was very different. In the U.S. in the 1950s and even 60s into the 70s, You could finally show gay people, but they had to die. They had to be bad people. They had to be punished. On TV, it was different. In Britain, it was different. They both, American TV and British films, pioneered a new way of looking at gay people. And then we started having more films like Victor Victoria. So it's very enjoyable. So yeah, that's sort of my memory overall. I mean, you brought up a ton of wonderful
SPEAKER_07:talking points. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:and I just want to add, I'm... I have to admit that I am not sure which plot turn or
SPEAKER_03:which part of the
SPEAKER_04:story was the one that may have been either more concerning or the show of cowardice, I think you mentioned, because as progressive as it feels to watch the movie in 2023, thinking like, wow, this is not something I would have expected necessarily to come out of the 80s, but sometimes I'm surprised by both the good and bad that comes out from that decade of film. There were certainly parts of the movie where both Anna and I cringed into the couch, but I thought overall it was really surprising. I don't know how I was not even aware of the movie being a thing, but I really enjoyed it. But yes, there were a few things that I'm just curious to see if some of the things that stood out to you align with some of the parts where we like, oh no, why did they do that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's going to be an interesting topic to exchange issues we have. Do you want me to reveal the plot turn? Go
SPEAKER_07:for it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's when James Garner finds out that Julie Andrews is sexually a woman.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. That's it, Howard. You nailed it.
SPEAKER_01:We knew at the time, no, this was a big mistake. Vito Russo, who wrote one of the Mm-hmm. And that was... bad
SPEAKER_04:yeah the way in which he the way in which he discovered it just felt like like this like just this violating kind of no because it was yeah
SPEAKER_07:I mean add
SPEAKER_01:that to it as well and that doesn't help any
SPEAKER_07:yeah
SPEAKER_01:either but it's a plot turn to just you know Yeah, it
SPEAKER_07:was a bad decision. Um, and I think that if at some point, you know, we had seen, cause it was clear that certain things, unless I missed them, um, certain things were revealed off camera. Like, you know, the fact that squash does think that actually it is, um, a gay romance, but that at some point it seems obvious that they've told him, um, that, you know, Victoria is, is indeed a woman. So there's that allowance, but I don't think there was ever a point where King revealed to her that he had done that. And that's very concerning.
SPEAKER_01:Right, because he's now lying to her. He's making her think that he doesn't care whether she's male or female. But he does. And that ruins the whole romance there. If he says, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, I'm going to kiss you. Then he finds out he's a woman and suddenly he can't have sex anymore. That's much funnier.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. yep no
SPEAKER_04:you're absolutely
SPEAKER_07:right and
SPEAKER_04:just him saying it meant nothing because i knew that he knew right so it's like that yeah and and i don't think at any point he tells her how he knew no
SPEAKER_07:no that's that's that's my point is that like if actually there had been a scene where he's like look i need to admit something to you you know i already knew and and if she then makes the decision on her own to forgive him
SPEAKER_03:yeah
SPEAKER_07:for that that that's different um but i think he's he kept that to himself the entire time in
SPEAKER_01:fact if you cut out that whole scene it wouldn't affect the movie.
SPEAKER_07:No, no,
SPEAKER_04:it would only affect it by improving it.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And it's often very funny. Blake Edwards is brilliant at slapstick. Right. So you would lose all this slapstick stuff, but it's not important to the plot.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You could even kept in like Victor Victoria's version of inspector Clouseau who snuck in there because, well, okay, that's messed up that he's doing it, but we kind of, get that. And we're not
SPEAKER_07:meant to be on his side.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So even that would have still worked. And I think that joke still would have worked if you hadn't had Gardner hiding in there first.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. And it, and it is a really like, besides the, the like coward aspect of it, it's a really interesting choice that was made. Cause it's like, you had to have known, I think, I don't know, but it would have seemed like, Oh, well this is going to make the audience view him in a certain light. But maybe I'm wrong in that regard. Maybe 40 years ago, that's not, the way people would have perceived that but
SPEAKER_01:well it was a huge success and I think he did it with his eye on the box office
SPEAKER_07:yeah
SPEAKER_01:so
SPEAKER_07:yeah but I really appreciate that you brought that up um I mean, it's funny because we usually don't get to like the more problematic elements until a little bit later, but that is so glaring.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. It really shifted like the perception of the movie and of Garner's character. And it really like shaped how you felt about that character for the entire rest of the movie.
SPEAKER_07:It sure did. Which, so Howard, my next question then is, I mean, I was at certain aspects of the watching like post that scene, trying to find reasons to still root for King. So I'm just curious overall with that scene being a part of the film, like how, how did you feel about him? Was there anything redeeming about him? Was there anything that you felt he did grow on in terms of, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The thing is, and this is another area of the film that doesn't quite work for me.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Those two characters just aren't very interesting.
SPEAKER_07:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So, the really interesting characters... And the ones who steal the show are Robert Preston and Lesley-Ann Warren and Alex Karras. And so that's basically all I care about after that.
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_01:they're the ones who save the movie after that. I think James Garner, people love James Garner. He's a really nice guy. And that's why they like him. He's really nice. I don't think he works for me on the big screen. I love him on the small screen.
SPEAKER_04:I
SPEAKER_01:love him when he does television. Yes, Maverick and whatever that detective show he did. And then some movies he made. But on screen, I find him very bland and boring. So...
SPEAKER_03:Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:he played a great
SPEAKER_03:character.
SPEAKER_01:So I was never all that invested in that romance. No,
SPEAKER_07:that's fair.
SPEAKER_01:The problem I have with Julie Andrews is that she's much better than James Gardner.
SPEAKER_03:But
SPEAKER_01:when I first saw it and she goes and she pulls off the wig and everybody in the nightclub is saying, oh... She's a guy. She's a guy. I'm reacting. Oh, it's a woman with short hair. It's a woman with short hair.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, he convinced me.
SPEAKER_04:I, I actually, I think while we were watching, I'm like, I am not really believing that she, and, and I know just me like thinking and saying that like carries with it a whole lot of like other potential like pitfalls or conversations, but just for purposes of like what they were trying to achieve in the movie.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm like, I'm like, I'm kind of with James Garner. Who's like looking around, like, am I crazy? I'm pretty sure she's a woman with short hair. here.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And actually that planter doesn't make any sense because James Garner looks in the program.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And there's Victor and Victoria. So why is everybody in the nightclub so shocked? They've all looked at the program.
SPEAKER_06:That's a really good point.
SPEAKER_01:So they already know. But that's a very minor thing. But yeah. So... I've seen the three major versions. There are actually six versions of this movie. Wow. And Jesse Matthews in the second one, First Girl, is the one that's most convincing
SPEAKER_03:as
SPEAKER_01:a man. The one that is closest to getting away with that. So I'm not really paying all that attention to this romance because I'm much more interested in all the other characters and what's going on there. I think the romance between Alex Karras and Robert Preston is the most authentic.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Tati is the best.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. I mean, I'll say quickly that, you know, I will... never tired of seeing Julie Andrews perform. She is such an incredible singer, obviously.
SPEAKER_04:Having so many musical numbers really helped.
SPEAKER_07:Yes, yes. And she's not a bad actress. No, she's not
SPEAKER_01:bland or boring.
SPEAKER_04:But she wasn't having to go up against Garner during the performances. The spotlight was truly in every way on her.
SPEAKER_07:That is what is interesting about her to me in the film is that she's just such a dynamic performer. It is just so joyful to listen to her sing. It's so gorgeous.
SPEAKER_04:I much preferred her during those moments than her trying to release a cockroach on the cafe. Sure,
SPEAKER_07:sure. That went on a little long. But I do agree with you very much, Howard. I mean, first of all, Robert Preston just steals the movie. It
SPEAKER_01:was originally supposed to be Peter Sellers. Peter Sellers
SPEAKER_07:died. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then Robert Preston was in Blake Edwards' previous movie, SOB, which is hysterical. And so he was given this role. And he ran away with it. He just took it and he ran. Absolutely. Just try and stop me.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, and I'm so sorry because I'm very much putting you on the spot and that's not fair. But I know he was nominated for Best Supporting Actor. I can't imagine who won it over him.
SPEAKER_01:Well... That was an interesting year because there were like five roles nominated that were either gay or people dressing. Because Tootsie.
SPEAKER_07:Tootsie was this year, too.
SPEAKER_01:Tootsie, The World According to Garp. Yes. Oh,
SPEAKER_02:yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that there was another gay character. Yeah. Let's find out really quick. Yeah,
SPEAKER_04:I'm looking
SPEAKER_01:it up too. Okay, if you're looking it up, I'll let you look it up.
SPEAKER_07:Derek's on the case.
SPEAKER_01:But I don't think I remember thinking... Oh, Robert Preston was going to win and then was surprised. I think my memory was that. This
SPEAKER_04:would be not supporting?
SPEAKER_07:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, it's. Here, I'll make my keys
SPEAKER_04:tap even louder.
SPEAKER_07:It's, I love, as far as relationships go, I agree with you. The romance wasn't really the defining relationship in this film for me. I do love the romance that does show itself between Tati and Squash. But it's really, for me, actually the friendships. I love the friendship between Victoria and Tati I just from from the jump you know I thought it was so lovely and those were the things that I really appreciated about the film for for when it came out is this immediate acceptance from Victoria no drama no nothing over you know her realizing that he's gay it's it was easy they both seem to truly want the best for each other And even when, you know, she eventually is like, I don't want to do this anymore. You can tell that that was disappointing to him. But, you know, there wasn't like some big blowout fight about it. Right. He didn't turn on her. You know, I just really thought the friendship between them was so lovely.
SPEAKER_01:This was the period of the gay best friend. Sure.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:which was great for a while and then eventually became a trope, a stereotype where the gay best friend was like an accessory, like a new purse or jewelry. Everybody had to have a gay best friend in movies, which was better than it used to be,
SPEAKER_03:but
SPEAKER_01:it did become old after a while. But this is probably the epitome of The Gay Best Friend.
SPEAKER_07:Do you feel like it has more substance to it? Oh,
SPEAKER_01:yes. Like I said, the epitome of The Gay Best Friend. This is one of the best portrayals of that in film. There wasn't anything that upsetting about The Gay Best Friend at the time. It's just that you know, go 10, 20 years and we still have the gay best friend, we're going, you know, can't we kind of get beyond that? But yeah, this was, and as I said, it's much better than what came before. I
SPEAKER_07:mean, I certainly don't have exhaustive experience or knowledge of gay those archetypes as portrayed over the course of film history. I think what specifically to this film I love is that like, yes, jokes are thrown around from both of them in terms of sexuality and orientation, but what made it feel more than a shtick was the sincere caring beyond whether or not you like women, you like men, like that really didn't matter to either of them. And it, that's why it felt really authentic to me. I mean, of course it was like a friendship that like was very quick to blossom, like over the course of one night, you know, there, so it all happened very fast. A lot of things happen really fast in this movie. Yeah. But, but that aside, they seem to like, again, not to, not to become redundant on the point, but like that, I just really felt the sincerity. I don't know if that, came through in the same way to you but yeah for me and then okay good good I mean I just
SPEAKER_04:so I yes I don't want to interrupt but I feel like I had a job and I'm going to deliver yes please but I'm not sure what year like so I know this came out in 1982 so if we're looking at who won the best supporting role best reporting actor role in 1982 that would have been I think the pronunciation is John Gilgood oh sure Arthur
SPEAKER_06:okay
SPEAKER_07:that's So then
SPEAKER_04:the next year was Louis Gossett Jr. Ah,
SPEAKER_07:there you go.
SPEAKER_01:We all knew that Louis Gossett Jr.
SPEAKER_07:Got it. Okay. Okay. Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but this was the year Robert Preston, John Lithgow, Dustin Hoffman.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah, because Lithgow got a...
SPEAKER_01:Meryl Streep. And... No, not Meryl Streep. That wouldn't go in there. Julie Andrews. Uh, I thought there was another one. Maybe there was only four.
SPEAKER_07:For this film?
SPEAKER_01:No, for playing gays or cross-dressers. Oh,
SPEAKER_07:gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:And John Neskow was a transsexual in The World According to Karp. So yeah, I thought there were five, but... Maybe you'd have to think about it.
SPEAKER_07:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Find the others.
SPEAKER_07:Well, let's, I mean, kind of as like a branching off of Tati's character. Um, so the relationship between him and squash, I, I mean,
SPEAKER_04:you mean Webster's dad?
SPEAKER_07:Sure. Um, it, it was actually really nice to see him. Cause like, that's, that's how like I first defined him like from that show.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Um, So it was really nice to see just an entirely different role for him. And I will say that that actually was, was a surprise to me. I mean, I didn't, that was like a, like usually I could see turns coming.
SPEAKER_04:The moment, maybe seconds before it happened, you called it. You're like, he's going to do this.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So,
SPEAKER_07:um, but that was the one thing. And I, I'm really curious to know your point on this. This isn't about to, like, I'm not trying to take away from the actual relationship. between Tati and Squash, but in terms of trying to find any kind of redeeming characters or characterizations in King, he
SPEAKER_01:was surprised. Oh, it was a comedian acceptance. It was surprised, but he didn't like Fire him or get away from me or anything like that. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_07:So I guess there's that. But I mean, in terms of it not being a sensationalized relationship, I mean, did it come across to you as a positive portrayal of a gay relationship?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yes. I think it's the richest sexual relationship, romantic relationship.
SPEAKER_03:in
SPEAKER_01:the whole movie. I mean, Robert Preston, Toddy, and Victoria are just friends. But this had more sincerity to it than King Marshawn and Victoria's relationship. So that was, yeah. I
SPEAKER_07:mean... I do really like Alec Karras. I think that not to take away from his performance, but I think both in terms of the friendship that he establishes with Victoria and then the romance that he establishes with Squash. Again, it kind of comes back to Robert Preston for me because there's such a groundedness that he brings to both relationships that he has that... I don't know. I just, I find it so fascinating.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I know that there, you mentioned there are like six different versions of this, at least with respect to this version, Preston is like the glue that holds everything together. It's a great way of
SPEAKER_07:putting it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. The other two are very different in certain ways. The basic plot is the same.
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Overall. But what Blake Edwards brings to it is both the gay aspect of it, and that King Morshan is this mafia, well, not mafia, he's organized crime next, or what is it?
SPEAKER_07:Adjacent.
SPEAKER_01:Adjacent. He's organized crime adjacent, neither of which are in the two earlier movies. So he built up the plot, and then he added this gay aspect, which I guess you got to... give him credit for because I'm not sure where he got the idea to do this because it's not in the first two films. That is
SPEAKER_07:really interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. But he did try to make sure that you couldn't see Victor and Victoria or Victor and Victoria and First Girl. And if I remember right, the movie doesn't even give them credit.
UNKNOWN:Hmm.
SPEAKER_01:Because he didn't want anybody to know how much he stole.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, wow. Okay. I mean, because his name now has... And I certainly wanted to make sure that he was given... proper attention. But in terms of this being a Blake Edwards movie, this is the first time that we've, I mean, maybe in passing, but the first time we've covered one of his films.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh, but you've covered it, but you've seen others.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, sure. Yes. I mean, for me, my favorite Blake Edwards is The Great Race.
SPEAKER_03:I
SPEAKER_07:love that movie. But I've seen like 10, and I can't say that, now my dad, my dad was the Pink Panther fan. I
SPEAKER_04:like the non-Steve Martin and Pink Panther. There were a couple of them that were fun. They had a lot of crazy, crazy, if I'm thinking about it now, I'm like, oh yeah, no, that'd be, that'd be messed up. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, that's probably what he's most, well, maybe Breakfast at Tiffany, but in any case, all to say.
SPEAKER_04:That was Mancini too, right? He worked with him a few times, but for sure on those movies. Yep,
SPEAKER_07:sure did. Howard, so at the time that you came into this film and saw it for the first time, Do you recollect, like, did you have an opinion of Blake Edwards at the time? Were you a fan of his work? Did this change your opinion of him?
SPEAKER_01:I'm not sure you would say I was a fan. Okay. I liked his films for the most part, but he wasn't top tier.
SPEAKER_05:Okay.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And certain of his films are problematic, like Breakfast at Tiffany's, where he actually took the gay aspect out of the original source material and had that awful... version of an asian of a japanese character yeah everybody told him don't do this everybody connected to the film said don't do this and he did it anyway so there's not really an excuse an excuse for that but uh the pink panther and i actually prefer a shot in the dark more than a pink panther which more defines the present-day Inspector Clouseau character. So I enjoy his film. I don't think he was a great filmmaker. In terms of directing and visual style, this is probably his best achievement. It looks gorgeous. The camera's always in the right place. He does these marvelous things where he does things like the scene in the cafe where he goes outside and you see everything happening through windows.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that was just so much funnier, I think, than if you're actually inside the cafe.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_07:You're
SPEAKER_01:totally
SPEAKER_04:right. It built up to that too. Cause you, it's like, Oh, she, she like released the cockroach and fun story. They basically had them like in, like they weren't frozen, but they were, they were like refrigerated. They were like cold enough to where I read that they were using like hairdryers to warm them up. And then they really didn't know which way they were going to go because they were cockroach. And
SPEAKER_06:I
SPEAKER_04:don't
SPEAKER_01:think they recovered them.
SPEAKER_04:all the build up to it like and then the horrifying imagery of it crawling up that lady's leg it was just perfect the way it immediately then like takes you outside of that so you're watching just chaos unfold from outside from through the windows I really enjoyed that too
SPEAKER_01:there's a lot of this visual humor like when they're across from each other in the hotel and you see so much going on through the windows And so oftentimes it's a lot funnier if you don't see it exactly, but you see it indirectly.
SPEAKER_07:No, I totally agree. And also just, it sometimes makes for more effective or just interesting storytelling, you know, like with back to the restaurant scene, you're watching it now, all the chaos unfold through the, through the windows and then off to the side, you see them sneak out, make their break. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So
SPEAKER_07:it's just, it's, it's really effective in that regard. Yeah. And you're right. I It felt like... So, so not being a Blake Edwards aficionado and just having kind of recollections, probably the most of Pink Panther films, just because of like childhood, like that being more of his defining trait. This felt like he, you know, was attempting a more serious, like there, there's a lot of really kind of like poignant, emotional, sentimental scenes
SPEAKER_01:in this film. Yeah. back and forth more between the slapstick and there's plenty of slapstick and the more serious aspects and I'm not sure what it was about this that did it I mean he pretty much wrote it for Julie Andrews they were married at the time so he wanted to give her something so film before SOB I don't think you could say as the seriousness of it it's a satire, this just hysterical and vicious attack on Hollywood that at times brings you up front and questions whether you should be judging these people the way you should be. But he's just great at slapstick. And then in this one, yeah, he's very good at bringing in the seriousness and And the relationship's bringing the seriousness of the story. And I sure would like to know what made him think of doing this. Right. When he got this idea. But Wikipedia isn't helpful, and I've sort of Googled it, and I really can't. Maybe if there's a biography of Blake Edwards somewhere, that might reveal
SPEAKER_03:how
SPEAKER_01:it is. But, yeah, I just don't know. He had just seen the other films, but I don't know when he saw them, you know.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, I'm trying to think if it might have something to do with Julie Andrews. I mean, she certainly can be funny, but I don't know if her forte lies and that kind of humor sustained over the course of an entire film. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm just I'm just grasping at straws to to understand. But but I mean, as far as first of all, there are very small moments that are incredibly funny, like where the detective, you know, is like moments before he actually drops to the ground is told that the chair is broken, like little things like that.
SPEAKER_04:I am I am always careful. That chair is broken.
SPEAKER_07:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:That was a very much a Pink Panther Inspector Clouseau moment.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that, you know, those little moments are hysterical. But then, you know, we you've mentioned her a couple times in passing. And so she also certainly deserves due diligence. Leslie Ann Warren.
SPEAKER_01:She just took this role and went with it. I mean, it's a type. It's a stereotype. Right. But she just goes with it and makes it her own thing. She had never done anything like this before. She had never been thought of as a good actress. And I think what happened, and this sometimes happens with actors that seem a little bland if they play themselves, give them an accent. Give them a character that is so 100% totally different from who they are and somehow it frees them to just go for broke. That she certainly
SPEAKER_03:did.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And everybody was shocked at her performance because nobody thought that she would, you know, and she never really did anything like this afterwards or anything as good as this. This is in many ways a high point of her acting career, but she was so good that They wrote her a number. Her number in it.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, interesting. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it wasn't there. The
SPEAKER_07:Chicago
SPEAKER_01:one. Yeah, Blake Edwards loved her performance so much that they actually gave her a number. And the great... The great line she has, which also was a scene they would often play at sidetrack, is when Victoria takes her into the next room and she says, lock the door, which she says she made up on
SPEAKER_07:the spot.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I
SPEAKER_07:love that!
SPEAKER_01:That's wonderful. It just frees
SPEAKER_07:her. Yes. And I love that you brought up that moment because that was actually a scene that before you get to that punchline, it was kind of confusing to me why she was acting the way she was acting.
SPEAKER_04:She thought that this guy was coming on to her. And then when she was sure that was happening, that's when she made the decision in her mind to lock the door.
SPEAKER_07:Right. And I think it just... I don't know. That was just such a spot on decision for her to make because it really kind of puts a bow on that scene. Because yeah, I felt like she was responding in a way that didn't quite make sense to me given the way that her character was set up.
SPEAKER_04:She had this like, there was like a look or a certain reaction when Julie Andrews takes the wig off and reveals that she in fact is a man at least forever. Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:As a woman, Victoria is a threat.
SPEAKER_07:Exactly. Exactly. Yep. So there was like a sense of relief. I sensed something more. Because Norma was just, you know, and I say this with every ounce of positivity, like a sexual person and comfortable with her sexuality, comfortable with other people's sexuality. I don't know, like her responsibility This is such a minor point. I'm really making too much of a big deal out of it. But all to say, spot on, like, instinct from her to close it out with that line. But what I found so fascinating about her character in terms of just this, like, you were saying, Howard, you know, her just, like, really going for it, I would think just from other– and nothing's obviously specifically coming from her. to mind but I feel like sometimes when you see performances like this it's like something you could only take in little bits and sure she's not in like the majority of the film but I was actually surprised that I did not get sick of
SPEAKER_04:I'm not
SPEAKER_07:trying to be
SPEAKER_04:rude about it but glowing review
SPEAKER_07:no I found myself like really just enjoying every moment of, of her. Yeah. Um,
SPEAKER_04:it was an intense character. So I don't know if, if you would have been like, well, this is, this is a bit much, but it was, it was a good amount.
SPEAKER_07:It's kind of like, um, uh, ages ago when we covered Beetlejuice, that's maybe the one other time where I remember something like, like a conversation like that coming up where we were saying that if he had been that character in more of the movie, it probably would have been overkill too much, too
SPEAKER_01:much
SPEAKER_07:Beetlejuice. I think we see
SPEAKER_01:more of her. They ran more of the movie than original because they didn't really realize how good he was going to be in that role and that he kind of stole the movie. So they added a couple of things. Well, I thought that they
SPEAKER_07:did. I mean, I...
SPEAKER_01:Well, they knew what they had. Once they saw that, they knew what they had, so they built that character.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, I'm really curious, you know, with you speaking of, like, if there was, like, a Blake Edwards, you know, biopic or something out there, like, do you know anything of, like, how they first responded to her portrayal? And, I mean, you did say that they added that number for her. That is interesting to me because it's, like, a different dynamic of acting in terms of literal song and dance. But it seems like they were pleasantly surprised with what she could
SPEAKER_01:bring to it. They didn't quite... This happens. You expected them to be good and all of a sudden they're just so much better than you are. And I think that... And I think structurally also the song is good. Because if we just went to her and she just went up to the guy and started crying and saying this and that and this, we needed introduction to her in Chicago before she does say that. So that also works well structurally. But sometimes this happens and someone just starts stealing a movie and they have to... put them in more because people are going to be looking for this character. Right.
SPEAKER_07:Because she does disappear for a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah. And you want her to come back. You know she can't be out of the movie. And she actually has to disappear in order to make the last act work.
UNKNOWN:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Am
SPEAKER_07:I to assume that the person that she went to is meant to be like an Al Capone figure?
SPEAKER_01:Something like that. I mean, he does look a lot like the way Al Capone is often portrayed, except that this character didn't have a scar. Sure. Al Capone with scar face. Sure. She sort
SPEAKER_04:of looks like Al Capone. We need a standard mafia guy for this role.
SPEAKER_07:And I think another aspect to her character that I really appreciated and, and then more generally appreciation for the film in this regard is that you have not only Julie Andrews coming into her friendship with Tati with complete acceptance, but when Norma has like her first real conversation with Tati as well, I get like, sure. She's like a little bit surprised and she uses that like Really not, for me, great language where it's like, oh, what a waste or whatever. That
SPEAKER_04:felt very... That's a trope, for sure. Yeah, and that
SPEAKER_07:didn't hit well with me, but... Bad dialogue aside in some in some of those in that scene also acceptance and and again that felt like I'm trying to think back to like 82 and now it's so interesting what you were saying Howard in terms of like that just happened to be a year where there were a lot of characters performances within like the gay space the queer space and seems to be like. overwhelmingly positive and to my eyes, progressive.
SPEAKER_04:Texas is in fact banned the year 1982 for many. Sure.
SPEAKER_01:When it comes to that, one of the things that that scene with Leslie Ann Warren or what is her name?
SPEAKER_07:Leslie Ann Warren.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Her character name.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, Norma.
SPEAKER_01:Norma. And she, With Victoria is Robert Preston's character, Tati's character and his charm. Because I love the scene when He sits at a different table and Robert Preston, Toddy says, oh, can I go join him? And he does. And you look over a little later. And for the first time, Alex Karras is smiling and having a good time. So there's something about Toddy and he can charm anybody. And so a lot of that acceptance comes from this ability just to charm people. It's like Oscar Wilde was just so charming. charming and clever and witty and smart, that he would win people over, even though most people knew that he was gay, even if he wouldn't admit it. But, yeah. I mean, yeah, some of it is... I want to say dated... by today's standards, but at that time, saying something like, oh, it's a terrible waste was very common. The idea is how long have you been gay? Well, today the answer would be I was born that way. Right. You would be more likely to pick the time when you sort of first realized it. So I
SPEAKER_07:thought that was interesting too. Cause yes, that, that comment comes up a couple of times. I think Julie Andrews. Yeah. When they're, when they're soaking their feet in the tub. So she asks that of Toddy. Yeah. And then King asks that of squash. I thought squash gave like a very sound and like progressive answer where I think he does say something to the effect of like, I don't remember when I wasn't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, I think, yeah, I think, I think he said that. I think, but just asking the question, the way that it was asked was like,
SPEAKER_07:Right, right. Which again, I think you're totally right, Howard. If we're looking at this through a 2023 lens, it's like, ugh, that's like an ick question to ask. Like you just, you don't, and you understand that it is just the way that you come into this world. I
SPEAKER_04:mean, these are all issues where in 2023, it's just, it feels like I'm not even sure how to articulate how weirdly infuriated and strange the reactions to some of these issues have been. When I read about what's happening in certain parts of the country, it's... I've wondered why. Why is this an easy thing to rally support for certain people around? But then when I see a movie like Victoria, I don't want to give the impression that although this feels like a more progressive movie... I don't necessarily think that there were better viewpoints on these issues back then. It's just that you could do it in a movie and people could see and enjoy this, but that isn't necessarily the same as saying that, well, things were really more progressive back then. I don't even know where I'm going with this.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think we often go through cycles. And one of the things, I mean, this wasn't... necessarily the only way gays are being betrayed I mean this was the same I think the same year as the Al Pacino film Cruising which is an awful portrayal of gay life, which didn't have to be, but they couldn't seem to get it right because they were scared. And gay people were protesting the film and the making of the film. But at the same time, you know, Summer of Love was in 68. The Vietnam War ended. And the hippies won the moral war. They lost the political war because we got Ronald Reagan and Nixon and Ronald Reagan and things of that nature. But they won the moral war. The sexual revolution was over and it was won. So things were loosening up. Even the studios would sometimes produce movies with gay characters and Though at that time, most of the gay films that were really good were the independent. There were just a ton of those. I mean, we'd go to the film festivals every year just to see what was new. from overseas, even in the U.S. And we had this great rise of independent gay film. But today, we got Bush, we got Trump, and the religious right, which has been building and building and building and building and building, suddenly got a lot of power. When I was young, in the 60s, you would never talk about this in the Baptist church, political politics. It was just wrong. It just was not what you did. You could talk about it outside of it, but during church, you didn't talk politics. And that changed. And when that changed, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:They blended into something that... They're the same. They're the same for many people. It's the same thing,
SPEAKER_01:which... but today we still it's very hard to do a movie that is negatively gay so you know and there's so many more gay films and it's where I don't even need to see them all or I don't want to see them all or it's hard for someone to make a gay film that I really, you know, I necessarily just want to see, because it's a gay film, there has to be something more going for it. And I read a lot of screenplays. And most of them are somewhat bland and uninteresting. And, you know, they still write coming out screenplays for some strange reason. I just want to scream and say, no, no, no, no. That's 50 years ago. That's 40 years ago. Well, sometimes when I write back, I say, oh, that's, that's such an, that's so 1990s. Yeah, this was a time when things were, you know, getting better. We had defeated, What's her name? From Florida. You know, we made her obsolete. The orange juice person. Oh, I don't
SPEAKER_02:know. The
SPEAKER_01:Florida orange juice. I don't know. Yeah. And I can't remember. Oh, are
SPEAKER_07:you talking about Ann Richards?
SPEAKER_01:No, that was Texas. Yeah. This was someone who had won. Actually, it was Miss America or runner-up Miss America. And she became... She represented the Florida... Anita Bryant? Yes. She represented the Florida orange juice industry. And when she came out of San Tai Ge, we drove her out of that.
SPEAKER_07:Got it. Okay. Got it.
SPEAKER_01:Things like that. And we had a lot of power in television. We could get... We could get some shows not to be shown again, like there was a really awful Marcus Welby one about pedophiles, and the way it was done was just tremendously terrible. But at the same time, there's the series 30-something where the conservatives made sure that a particular episode that showed too many of it was never shown again. So it was this complicated battle.
UNKNOWN:Wow.
SPEAKER_07:wow well that was that was amazing to just have that context
SPEAKER_04:yeah
SPEAKER_07:um that you just provided and
SPEAKER_04:because people generally have really short attention spans right and every year it feels like well this is the first time we've ever seen this right and that's not really always the case in fact
SPEAKER_01:when love simon the movie came out yeah i was so furious i know everybody kept saying this is something new and i've said it's not new in fact it's old and cliched. And it's insulting to say it's new because you're dismissing all the other coming of gay age films, many of which were better before this one came out. And I was just furious about that. So yes, a lot of people will come up and they'll say, yeah, or they'll do something not realizing that And it's not just in this area. So many people say I have something that I can't reveal what it is because someone will steal it. And then when I find out what it is. It's so
SPEAKER_07:groundbreaking.
SPEAKER_01:I can name 10, 10, 20 other films, but the same basic premise. So no, it's, it is.
SPEAKER_07:And that's why, um, and look, we're, we're certainly at fault too, where like, I think some, in some cases with particular films, we can provide some context around it. Um, but that's not always the case. And then, you know, given
SPEAKER_01:that I'm older, I'm, I'm 68. I've lived through it all.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So I just, and I've been watching movies. movies all my life and I just I've seen a lot more than most people. There are people who have seen 10 times more than I have, but I've seen a lot more than most people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:No, I, and I, that was just really fascinating and wonderful to get to listen to because that, that often is missing. Yeah. Um, to your point, Derek, where like there's short attention spans and short memories, um, around films where there, there is more being brought to the table than just like a funny story
SPEAKER_04:or whatever. There's never been a movie like bros in theaters before. Sure. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_07:Well, one person. So I think that among all the characters, you know, we've we've given some time to everybody. However,
SPEAKER_03:however,
SPEAKER_07:I'm very curious, Howard, because the last person I want to make sure we get into this conversation is John Rhys-Davies.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, he was in this movie. He didn't get too much.
SPEAKER_07:Right. Well, yeah. OK, so you've kind of put your cards on the table. Yeah, I have. I'm just curious, Howard, how you felt about this. character if they added to to the story and what they maybe provided or didn't for you in it
SPEAKER_01:well he's very good but he doesn't have much to do in the story right and he doesn't have a lot of character yeah but that's why it's good to give it to someone like like um Jonathan Rhys-Davis.
SPEAKER_04:I want to say William, but it's Davis. He's very enthusiastic. He has a lot of very enthusiastic clapping scenes.
SPEAKER_01:So he just has to play this character that he normally does, and he's perfectly fine. The person I would like to point out is Graham Stark.
UNKNOWN:Sure.
SPEAKER_07:Is it the waiter?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, man.
SPEAKER_01:He doesn't do anything wrong. He's totally innocent. And he always gets the short end of the stick. He shows up in A Shot in the Dark, the second Peter Sellers Inspector Clouseau film, as Inspector Clouseau's long-suffering second-in-command who just sort of has to just take it. Usually, though, it's Inspector Clouseau who gets everything that happens to Graham Stark, the waiter, in this film. But, yeah, he just has this look on his face. Yeah. Yeah. what's the point? The universe is against me. No matter what I do. And I, so I think he's, uh, he's really great. Uh, I always enjoy him.
SPEAKER_07:I'm, I'm, thank you for bringing him up. That, that was, that was a much, uh, deserved inclusion. I love it. He
SPEAKER_04:came back to
SPEAKER_07:you. Like you thought
SPEAKER_01:every time he comes back. Yeah. Yeah. up getting beaten up or something. It's just... And
SPEAKER_07:he's so wonderful because like, yes, he does actually have lines in the initial restaurant scene. But as the film progresses, it's more so like he almost has this like mime quality to him where it's just literally facial expressions, body language.
SPEAKER_04:Does not have to say a word. He doesn't really have to
SPEAKER_07:say anything. And you know exactly what he's thinking. And Howard, I want to say it. is him it happened so fast and it was another one of those like i just guffawed when it happened at the very end because it really doesn't serve any purpose is it him that comes out with that birthday cake yeah and then he just tips over yes
SPEAKER_04:yeah yeah there was there was no point to that we were like oh here's this guy the cake but that that was the point that it was him right yeah
SPEAKER_01:You could also point out Norman Aden, who is uncredited, but he is the man in the hotel with the shoes.
SPEAKER_03:Oh,
SPEAKER_01:that's a good
SPEAKER_07:one. Oh, okay. Okay, maybe that's what's been going on this whole time.
SPEAKER_01:He's the guy in the Pink Panther, the original one, where they're going through this town square with a fountain, and there's this guy that crosses back and forth, and then finally just sits down to watch everything unfold. That's the same type of character. I
SPEAKER_07:love it. And I, you know, I do, I... I have sometimes back and forth opinions about... Filmmakers who like it's great to be so loyal to to certain collaborators. And it's clear that Edwards does that both in front of him behind the camera with the people that he collaborates with. Sometimes it makes me sad because it's like, well, there's so many other wonderful creatives and performers that you could also be using instead of going to the same well every time. But but if it works. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like the other side of it. Right. Right. Um, I mean, I'm just curious, like in to, this has just been a wonderful conversation with you, Howard, and we appreciate so much your time and coming on the show again. Like what, what do you think about that? I feel like it comes up a lot and we don't usually get the chance to ask our guests about how they feel about kind of repetitive collaborations, um, with filmmakers and artists. Like, do you have any kind of, do you lean any one way on it?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I think that it can put a spotlight on those particular people that they collaborate with. And it also shows that when a director knows that someone can help him and improve
SPEAKER_03:his
SPEAKER_01:film, I mean, Alfred Hitchcock and Bernard Herrmann. Where would Psycho be without Bernard Herrmann saying, let me play this for you, let me play this for you, and then, because Hitchcock wasn't going to have any music during the shower scene, and he said, oh, okay. And he used the music all the way through. So here he uses Henry Mancini a lot in his films. Henry Mancini is not a great composer, but he's a very good composer, and he's very enjoyable. He writes kitschy tunes and catchy music. They're a lot of fun. And the lightheartedness of it, the sort of suburban feel of his music, meshes perfectly with Blake Edwards, who's also not a great director, but a good director. And they... Henry Mancini makes the kind of music, writes the kind of music that is a good match. But there are other kinds of collaborations as well. Sometimes they can be... The worst ones are when people keep using the same actor or actress over again, even though... she's there's some they're not very good like peter bug donovich and uh what's her name um
SPEAKER_07:sybil shepherd
SPEAKER_01:and sybil shepherd who was a terrible actress
SPEAKER_07:yeah
SPEAKER_01:always was he was sleeping with her and he kept using her and it hurt his career um But you have things like John Ford and John Wayne. You have Alfred Hitchcock with both Jimmy Stewart and Cary Grant and even Ingrid Bergman. And also writers. You don't see a lot of, off the top of my head, writer collaborators that people use over and over and over again. But But Jed, like Frank Capra, used the same writer for a number of his films. And he's really responsible for the Frank Capra touch.
SPEAKER_03:So
SPEAKER_01:yeah, I mean, if it works, and it can get stale. So the problem is, if it gets stale, then you've got to find a way to shake it up. I'm not all that impressed with Blake Edwards and Julie Andrews. She's fine. She doesn't really hurt anything, but... it's not a bad decision. Let's put it that way. I've seen worse. Yes. Like I said, Civil Shepard. It could be a lot
SPEAKER_07:worse. I think I appreciate more so when filmmakers bring into the fold perhaps more minor characters and bring in the same actors. They're not going to be the star of the film. I know Preston Sturgis did that quite a bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I
SPEAKER_07:think I appreciate that more. So like, and this is not a slam on Scorsese or De Niro, but like De Niro is going to do just fine if he's not in every Scorsese, you know, like, or Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes, exactly. That's the newer one. Leonardo DiCaprio. So, um, I, I get it. Like sometimes you just, you develop trust and
SPEAKER_04:like Adam Sandler movies always have his friends in his head. Sure,
SPEAKER_07:sure, sure. Yeah. So, well that was that was fascinating I just yeah I don't think we've really ever had a chance to ask our guests how they feel about that and just in general Howard this has been a wonderful conversation it is a joy to have you back on the show it it has been a joy to listen to you like just with your exhaustive you really do have exhaustive film knowledge and you know just like what you are able to bring to the table in terms of film history thank you you so so much for this wonderful conversation and yay and you know when I introduced you I brought up some of the ways that you are in the industry and I just was curious if you wanted to share with our listeners you know where they might be able to find you or you know provide more info on what you do
SPEAKER_01:well as you did mention I am a script consultant the easiest place to To find more information is on Facebook with my Howard Kastner, either through my Facebook page, Howard Kastner, you can ask me, or Howard Kastner screen. play. What is it now? Is it Howard Kasner? I think I say Howard Kasner's screenwriting page on Facebook, but it's easy to find me through that. I have a blog called Rantings and Ravings. Pop art can be found in many, many places. The three main places that I suggest people go to is Apple iTunes, Spotify And I'd say Anchor, but Anchor's now Spotify, so I guess... So you can get it either through Anchor website or through the Spotify website. And then I'm in a lot of other platforms as well. You can find my books on Amazon under my name. That sort of thing. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:And a congratulations is in order to you because you just crossed the 100-episode threshold, which is no small feat.
SPEAKER_04:That's a huge deal. It's like double. Yes, yes, yes. 200 movies.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. 200 movies. Yes. On that. And there are so many more that could be covered. And I have the next like four or five episodes. I mean, four or five people. set up until August yours where we talked about stripes and no time for sergeants will be up hopefully next Monday of course I don't know when this is up and maybe up after
SPEAKER_07:it'll be in close proximity yeah it'll be quick
SPEAKER_01:yeah and I love doing these sorts of things if any of the people of your listeners your friends etc I would love to be a guest on their podcast And I'm, you know, so that would be wonderful as well. I'm often on the Lambcast. Oh, that's right. Yes, I do that one quite a bit. In fact, I'm on the Sunday. And I occasionally show up on like some recall and forgotten film for podcasts. And recently, someone was doing Tony Kogan was doing a minute by minute wicker man.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, fine.
SPEAKER_01:I covered one minute with him of Wicker Man.
SPEAKER_07:Oh, I love that premise. That's cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I was on the Cinema Recall, one of Great Escape. I did a minute one on that as well. So I love doing it. Have me back on if you know other people want me on, you know. Great.
SPEAKER_07:Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you heard it here. So in addition to all the ways that you can find Howard online, both for his consulting services or his podcast or his books, if you guys out there know of a podcast or you have your own, we give Howard two huge thumbs up because he is truly a wonderful guest. Four thumbs up. I'm sorry. Four thumbs up. I
SPEAKER_01:thought each one of you was giving me a thumb up. I didn't I was interpreting that as like- We both
SPEAKER_05:doubled up.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert both giving a thumb up.
SPEAKER_04:No, it's actually, it's just me. I have four thumbs.
SPEAKER_01:Oh,
SPEAKER_07:okay. Well, Howard, thank you again for being back on the show. It was truly our pleasure. It
SPEAKER_01:was wonderful being here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_07:Howard, we love you. Thank you for an incredible conversation. We knew it'd be great. And it was. That was super fun. Yeah. Yes. All right. Derek.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, this is definitely a question that applies to both of us because we both, I might have, like I said, I've seen a couple of the like song and dance sequences. Yeah. That was about it. So would you watch this film again?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think I would. It was fun. I enjoyed it. I'd watch it again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Me too. I mean, I think that the film does a really good job. Like sometimes when I say, oh, sure, I'd watch it again because I feel like I've missed stuff. I don't know if I feel like I've missed stuff. Yeah. In this I
SPEAKER_04:would just like to see stuff again that I didn't miss because, yeah, I think there's less stuff to miss. Yeah. It's mostly like right there for you.
SPEAKER_07:It's right there for you. Yeah. But it is really fun. I mean, we both have now multiple times over talked about how much we enjoyed Preston's performance. Of course, it doesn't get much better than Julie Andrews performing as well. I might
SPEAKER_04:watch the original Pink Panther after seeing this.
SPEAKER_07:Interesting. Wow. So this is even... inspired you to watch just other Blake Edwards films? And I might watch The Music Man. Okay. And other Robert Preston films.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe I'll watch The Simpsons episode that is a parody of The Music Man, where instead of a pool hall, they're building a monorail. Is
SPEAKER_07:it going to inspire you to maybe watch Mary Poppins or The Sound of Music?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, well, one of those.
SPEAKER_07:No, it's a really great film. It's a ton of fun. It also, in a way, kind of feels like... Did this come up? I feel like maybe it came up off the record, but just that they don't really make musicals in the same kind of way anymore.
SPEAKER_04:The closest was like La La Land was touted as being the return of the musical.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know how to quite put my finger on it, but this reminds me so much more of more older style musicals. For some reason, Gigi is coming up for me. Well, because there are these big... stage
SPEAKER_04:performances yeah and then interspersed with some musical numbers like throughout the film so that I think is what you like probably don't see
SPEAKER_07:yeah and it's not at all to take away from those older style films because I think they're so fun and they're actually so beautifully presented but there's like a kind of slickness with more modern musicals that just give it a different kind of vibe for me yeah I think La La a really good example
SPEAKER_04:of that yeah because the things that may have been like more of a still like they're the effects and the way that they like blend it into like these like other worldly types of scenes when it goes into the song
SPEAKER_07:Moulin Rouge is coming up for me even though that's not even that
SPEAKER_04:modern anymore it was I mean you know Obi-Wan Kenobi was in it so yes he was
SPEAKER_07:yeah and Nicole Kidman and so like if I am thinking of Moulin Rouge and then I thinking of this film they just feel so like worlds apart to me so but they're both musicals so you know that also shows that in cinema even something that falls under the same kind of like genre convention still there could be just so much variety
SPEAKER_04:I will defer to your knowledge on this because even though I have enjoyed these admittedly it is not my wheelhouse of cinema
SPEAKER_07:it's not mine either
SPEAKER_04:um
SPEAKER_07:but okay so call to action uh hmm
SPEAKER_04:you've brought one up earlier but yeah I was but yeah it was tell me the the plot of Shrek yeah
SPEAKER_07:I mean I think you know what I actually do think would be really interesting is I have a couple couple different ways I could go with this one first of all I would love to know what people think of King Marshawn and his relationship with Victoria like are we seeing things in a way that maybe other people either They don't think it's like that big. I don't know. I'm just curious if they rooted for this romance. I
SPEAKER_04:think you can do both. I think you can root for the romance while not necessarily loving that character because you see some potential for him to evolve and grow as a character.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, that's true. So there's that. And also, I'm really curious to just know how people think the way that Jen and sexuality sexual orientation the way that these topics that are obviously very much topics of today as well like this film's 1982 so it's over 40 years old
SPEAKER_04:honestly this film releasing now would would be like there would be talk of it being banned in some states oh for sure which is which is like like nonsense yeah absolute nonsense and just like it almost like turns on its head and the the like perspective that we often have when we're talking about things that are problematic in like these older movies like some of the issues that are that come up are progressive certainly for that time but the fact that they would be viewed as bannable in 2023 kind of makes me sad for 2023 oh
SPEAKER_07:absolutely yeah so that's why i'm just really curious how people feel about how the film holds up or maybe some people think it doesn't hold up um in terms of All those different issues. So if you want to get in touch with us, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach out through Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. It's the same handle for all three. It is at 80smontagepod and 80s is 80s. Okay, sneak peek. What in the world do I give as a clue? Oh
SPEAKER_04:my goodness. What is the most surprisingly bonkers movie from this decade that I didn't even see it coming. I didn't realize that this was going to hit the way that it did.
SPEAKER_07:I don't know if that's a clue, but...
SPEAKER_04:It's certainly a sneak peek into the mind of...
SPEAKER_07:The mind of Derek.
SPEAKER_04:The mind and how it's affected when you watch Baby Colon, The Secret of the Lost Legend. Well done. Well done.
SPEAKER_07:Yes. So that is on tap. That was, as our awesome guest phrased it, a wild ride. Boy, was it. So just in the meantime, thank you so much to everyone out there for choosing to listen to our podcast. We know that there are a lot of other options out there. So thank you so much for taking the time to listen to ours. And we will chat again in two weeks' time.