'80s Movie Montage
Breaking down our favorite decade of flicks. Hosted by Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke.
'80s Movie Montage
Heathers
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In this episode, Anna and Derek discuss the dark comedy cult classic Heathers (1988).
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Anna Keizer and Derek Dehanke are the co-hosts of ‘80s Movie Montage. The idea for the podcast came when they realized just how much they talk – a lot – when watching films from their favorite cinematic era. Their wedding theme was “a light nod to the ‘80s,” so there’s that, too. Both hail from the Midwest but have called Los Angeles home for several years now. Anna is a writer who received her B.A. in Film/Video from Columbia College Chicago and M.A. in Film Studies from Chapman University. Her dark comedy short She Had It Coming was an Official Selection of 25 film festivals with several awards won for it among them. Derek is an attorney who also likes movies. It is a point of pride that most of their podcast episodes are longer than the movies they cover.
Hello and welcome to 80s movie montage, the podcast where we're all stuck at home, so we're just gonna talk about movies. I'm Derek.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm Anna.
SPEAKER_01:And we're here to talk about what movie.
SPEAKER_00:The movie today is Heather's. Uh, this was my pick, but before we get into it, I actually wanted to give a listener a shout out.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so really fun little story. Um here, okay. So here's the thing. I feel like probably at this point, maybe forevermore, probably most of our listeners will be the people who are already in our lives and friends and family members who Hello. Yeah, hi guys. Um But but oddly enough, I we we have snagged uh a listener who hasn't has no connection to us other than he also loves 80s movies. His name is Rich. And he Hey Rich. Hi, Rich. Uh he is overseas right now in the UK, and yeah, he came upon the podcast and is listen uh looking for material to listen to while going on his runs. And like we're just like so grateful to him that he wants to spend his time with us and wanted to give him a shout out as our newest fan of the podcast. So thank you so much, Rich. We are super happy to have you on board and hope that uh our podcasts continue to keep you interested and wanting to listen to them.
SPEAKER_01:And tell your friends.
SPEAKER_00:And tell your friends. So, okay. Yes, as I mentioned, the pick today is Heather's. Uh, this was released in 1989, so we're at the tail end of the decade.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And I feel like you have something that you want to say.
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean, just so a lot of these 80s movies I've I've seen. I've like grew up and watched them. And so I had kind of like the nostalgia glasses, and Heathers is a movie where maybe I had seen a couple like bits and pieces, but truly watching it the other day was like watching it for the first time. And holy shit, this movie is bonkers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay, great, great jumping off point. Yeah. So so starring. Oh, yeah. Well, okay, wait, let's let's rewind just a second because you just made a point of saying this, I think, is like the first of the films that you had just never seen it before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So this is something that we typically typically do where we talk about first-time viewing experiences. So I think you very uh eloquently encapsulated how you felt watching it, that it was bonkers.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:I I this this is not the first time, not even close to the first time of me having seen the film. It probably has been a while, like most of these films, of me watching it from start to finish. But it is a film from my childhood. I like most of these films, I don't honestly recall the first time that I've seen it or that I saw it, but it's just one of those films that's been part of my life and has kind of been uh uploaded into my brain with the sayings and the storyline and the really unique style of the film. And yeah, it's it is definitely bonkers for sure. And I think a word that we bring up quite often in this podcast is problematic. And this has like problematic stamped all over it in terms of it being a film that could never, ever in a billion, million, zillion years be made today.
SPEAKER_01:There's very few things from this like if they remade the movie and it was just people uh playing croquet, that might be the only way it could be made today.
SPEAKER_00:It would just be like a five-minute film of them playing croquet, because virtually everything else in it just would be a no-go.
SPEAKER_01:It it touches on virtually every kind of topic that you would just simply be unable to even attempt in today.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and it's kind of astonishing. Like I'm I'm almost in admiration of what they accomplished with this movie from that perspective. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and we're 31 years down the road. And so I think that speaks to just how you know we as like uh culture and a nation have changed and events that have taken place. Uh I would say for worse, instead of there's not much that's for better. Um well, okay, well we'll we'll we'll circle back to that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it got really dark.
SPEAKER_00:It got real dark. Well, okay, it's a dark comedy. So so there's that element to it.
SPEAKER_01:It's a pitch black comedy.
SPEAKER_00:Pitch black comedy. So let's start with, you know, kind of the genesis of any film, which is the writer behind it. So the person who wrote this, gentleman by the name of Daniel Waters, and he, you know, like this is again kind of getting into like redundant territory. Pretty much everybody who's been involved with any of these films that we've mentioned so far, they have a pretty substantial career in Hollywood, and he is no different. Some of the other films that he's written are The Adventures of Ford Fairlane.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah, starring Andrew Dice Clay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Hudson Hawk. This guy's Bat in a Thousand. Yeah, exactly. Batman Returns. Uh the one with Danny DeVito is Okay, okay. Yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer. That was that was okay. I like that better than the original, to be quite honest.
SPEAKER_01:They were both pretty good. They, I mean, obviously a very different style.
SPEAKER_00:You think they're both Tim Burton?
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, I mean the Tim Burton ones as opposed to the the um Christian Bale demonstration. Oh, I feel you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Christopher Nolan. Yeah. Oh, could not be more different. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Very different.
SPEAKER_00:But uh, so he's the writer behind that demolition man.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And then also, this didn't really get uh what's uh well anyway, I'll just say he was the writer behind the TV series of Heathers, or at least one of them, because it's inspired by him.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't know there was one.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, that's just it. Is that right? I don't think like look, uh don't quote me on this because I haven't really been following the trajectory of this show. I think it's already dead in the water because it when was it supposed to launch? I think it was supposed to launch last year.
SPEAKER_01:Disney Plus?
SPEAKER_00:No. And I think we unfortunately just had another um circumstance and yeah, yeah. So anyway, okay, so that's that's the writer behind this.
SPEAKER_01:And that's a quote by Anna Kaiser.
SPEAKER_00:What did I say?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:You said not to quote you, so not to quote me, yeah. I I mean I just want to make it clear that like I don't have infinite knowledge of all these different things, so like I'm sure I make mistakes from time to time. But one thing I'm not mistaken about. Nice segue, huh?
SPEAKER_01:This is a great segue.
SPEAKER_00:Great segue, is the director. The director is Michael Lehman. So this guy, again, has done tons of stuff, uh, both I think before and certainly in the years since. So he must have a little bit of relationship with the writer because he was the director of Hudson Hawk.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. If you had told me that we were gonna be talking about Hudson Hawk so much today, I wouldn't have believed it. But you know, it's a crazy world.
SPEAKER_00:Directed airheads.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, with um Brendan Fraser. Brendan Fraser and uh Adam Sandler. Who is the Oh yes.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not gonna be able to. Oh, Steve Buscemi, right?
SPEAKER_01:He was the other airhead?
SPEAKER_00:Wasn't he?
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, well, okay, now that like we're on this, yeah. So folks, hang with us because we need to figure this out right now. Um and the answer is I am cracked. So we are not editing this out.
SPEAKER_01:Steve Busemi. Let me edit something.
SPEAKER_00:That I am I am highly impressed with myself right now that I pulled that one out. But anyway, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Steve Busemi.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. So uh director behind, I'm just gonna list these off now. The truth about cats and dogs, my giant 40 days and 40 nights, the comeback, misguided, which misguided. So that was a TV show that had like a half-season run. The reason why I am devoting so much time to talking about the show is because I am actually in the opening credits of that show because I worked at a uh place, give a shout-out to Framework, who did the opening credits and they pulled basically me and uh friends of mine from high school because they needed high school photos. And so, because it's about a show set in high school. Okay. So that's my connection to Michael Lehman there.
SPEAKER_01:That's very cool. And then I mean I was hoping it would be a Hudson Hawk connection somehow, but this is a disappointment.
SPEAKER_00:He also, and and now it seems like he kind of has uh fully integrated into like the world of TV rather than film, because he has since worked on Big Love, outsourced the big scene, nurse Jackie, Dexter, American Horror Story, True Blood, California Cation, the terror. So he is working up until this very day. So good on him. Music. So this one I'm actually really excited to talk about because the gentleman behind the music in Huthers is David Newman. Does that name ring a bell to you?
SPEAKER_01:Uh is it the Toy Story?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:Guys, is that that's a different Newman?
SPEAKER_00:Think about concerts that we've gone to.
SPEAKER_01:Um we've been to several concerts at the Hollywood Bowl during the maestro of the movies. There you go. Oh, yeah. That's him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Isn't that so cool? I mean, this guy, so if that wasn't clear to the listeners at home, it was not. David Newman, he is a composer and he's also a conductor. And every year, the very awesome John Williams, uh, there is a concert that is put on at the Hollywood Bowl. It's an open uh air concert hall in LA. It's one of the most fun things to do in town. And uh, you know, Mr. John Williams, he's in his late 80s at this point, and so he doesn't necessarily conduct the entire concert. And so half of the time, if not more so, it's David Newman who takes over. And he comes from um lineage of a famous like composing family. His father, again, don't quote me on this. I'm pretty sure the name is Alfred Newman, though. He did quite a bit in his day. And so he also has more than a hundred credits on IMDB as the composer for various films. Wait on me.
SPEAKER_01:What are the greatest hits?
SPEAKER_00:So some of them, I mean, what I love about this guy is that so when you think of like composers, I think your mind automatically goes to maybe more, I don't know, loftier epic type films. And what I love about David Newman is that he has found his niche. And not to say that he, I feel like probably most artists want to go out of like their wheelhouse every once in a while, but I feel like he has a really solid grasp of more popular like comedy type films, and that's completely fair and valid. Like it doesn't make him any less of a composer because his his to his credit, some of them Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, The War of the Roses, Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead, The Sandlot, Never Been Kissed, and Galaxy Quest.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, they're those are all great movies. I mean, even John Williams did the the score for Home Alone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. So, like j that's just a super small selection of works that he's done. So, okay. So that thank you for indulging me because you know I love to bring up the people who are like kind of behind the scenes with this. Yeah. So as far as uh who this film stars, two two names in particular Leia Mami Derek.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, Winona Ryder and um little little um Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that is one way of putting it. So we have Winona Ryder and Christian Slater. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I almost called them Christian Bale, which is why I had to pivot over to Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you did well. I mean, I wouldn't have known. But I mean, these two people, I very well known in the industry and have had long careers, both started out uh in the 80s. Both both had actually a couple projects under their belts by the time they got to this. They were already like well-known names.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, this was I didn't realize it was 89. I thought it was a little bit earlier. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So if it being 89 makes more sense that they had a couple that they were in the yeah, yeah, and I mean I have no doubt that we will be actually I know for sure that we'll be talking about them again um because we already have films coming down the pipeline that uh star them again. So as far as like Winona Writer is concerned, so she's in the film Lucas, that's gonna be one of our films coming down. Spoilers, one of our films coming down the pipeline.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh she was did you ever hear of a film called Square Dance? It's it's I have not. Not a I wouldn't say it's a great film. Sounds awesome. Yeah, anyway, but I remember watching that when I was younger. For some reason, I caught that. So she's in that Beetlejuice, Great Balls of Fire, Edward Scissor Hands, Mermaids, Bam Stoker's Dracula, The Age of Innocence, Reality Bites, Little Women, Alien Resurrection, Girl Interrupted, Black Swan, Destination Wedding, and now the TV show Stranger Things. So she's legit, in short. And Christian Slater, no different. So this is an actor who prior to being in Heathers, I the first thing I probably saw him in was in The Legend of Billy Jean, which will also be coming down the pipeline.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. That's the first thing I can now that I think of it, that's the first thing I he had kind of a lesser He was the younger brother.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Which oddly enough, I mean, I don't know how many times this happens, but he starts with somebody who has the same last name, no relation though, Helen Slater. Yeah. So Legend of Billy Jean, Young Guns 2, Pump Up the Volume, Robin Young Guns 2. Yeah, Young Guns 2. Uh Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, Untamed Heart. That was an interesting film. True Romance. Now a lot of people love True Romance. Interview with the Vampire. Small role, but still. Bed of Roses, Broken Arrow, and also he has kind of pivoted into television. So Robot Chicken, Archer, Mr. Robot, Dirty John.
SPEAKER_01:So also, um, yeah. Sorry. You said Mr. Robot. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then probably outside of those two, another really well-known name, and probably of anybody in this film, you know, someone who is known by their name is Shannon Doherty. So she plays one of the Heathers.
SPEAKER_01:She does.
SPEAKER_00:She's Heather Duke. And she also had already had her start in Hollywood. She used to be on Little House on the Prairie. I did not know that. Yeah. Back in the day.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, she now, the film that I probably knew her from prior to Heathers was Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. That was like that was one of my jams.
SPEAKER_01:Is that the the one with uh Mad About You, Helen Hunt? No. You got it. No, you're right. Is it okay?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, good job.
SPEAKER_01:That movie is just completely nonsensical.
SPEAKER_00:That's fine, it's great. Yeah. And don't forget uh Sarah Jessica Parker.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I was trying to think of, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So Girls Just Want to Have Fun. And then probably what most people know her from is uh what was her name on the show? Brenda Walsh. I I didn't really you could probably tell, I didn't really watch this show, but Beverly Hills 90210.
unknown:Yeah, I never watched that. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00:So, but that was that's probably her biggest claim to fame. But then she was also in Mallrats. Um, she was also in the TV show Charmed. And then I didn't know this because I never watched it, but apparently she also had a role in the TV series version of Heathers.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Was she the same character?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, I don't know. I didn't even, you know what? That's a great question. I should look that up. But I just noticed that.
SPEAKER_01:Otherwise, like, what's the point?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, that would have been amazing, right? If she played the same character. Um, and then outside of that, I would say that actually this is kind of like more of a trivia type thing. So there is a character in the film. So let's let's tell you a little bit about the film real quick.
SPEAKER_01:What is this movie about?
SPEAKER_00:I always pull the IMDB synopsis to to give a quick lowdown. So, in order to get out of the snobby click that is destroying her good girl reputation, an intelligent teen teams up with a dark psychopath in a plot to kill the cool kids. I don't know if that's like quite accurate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, look, I I understand that they they have some um constraints to work with when creating the synopsis, but I feel like that is on one hand, pretty accurate, and on the other hand, a gross oversimplification.
SPEAKER_00:Very much so. And I think that like kind of the way that they um set up Veronica, she's the main character, that's Winona Rida's character, set up her intentions that she is like upset that they're trying to destroy her good girl reputation is not accurate at all. The reason why I bring it up is because as far as to jump back to the actors in the film, there's a character named Betty Finn, and she once upon a time was one of Veronica's best friends, but as things happen in high school, they kind of go on their different paths. Veronica is part of like the cool group, and Betty Finn is not. So you know what character I'm talking about, right?
SPEAKER_01:Glasses, she's like, So you played croquet with her at some point.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Um she is played by an actress named Renee Estevez.
SPEAKER_01:Any relation to Emilio?
SPEAKER_00:His sister. Oh, okay. So she is the sister of Emilio Estevez, Charlie Sheen, and the daughter of.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wait, you lost me who?
SPEAKER_00:Martin Sheen. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Love you. Um, so uh so yeah, a funny little kind of and so she also she hasn't had like a prolific career in entertainment, but uh she was in the 80s film for keeps, which we've mentioned in a previous episode that has Molly Remold in it. And I guess this makes sense. She was in the West Wing. Because her dad plays the president.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they I mean they they tried their best to pull off a s a successful John and Joan Cusack, but that's tough.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say that it didn't quite work out the same way, but um there was an attempt. There was an attempt. So and as far as the other two Heathers, so in this film, the we have three Heathers, if you haven't watched this film. That's what I want to make clear. So Shannon Doherty, she's Heather Duke. And then the other two actresses that play respectively, Heather Chandler, that's Kim Walker, and Heather McNamara. I think her name is pronounced Lazanne. Sounds right. Lazanne Falk. Sure. So um they also haven't they didn't really go on to have like a huge long prolific career. Unfortunately, Kim Walker has passed away since uh the film was made. But both of them were also in the film Say Anything, oddly enough. Okay, that is interesting. Yeah, I don't think major roles, but um yeah, so there we go. Okay. So now that we got that all out of the way, one thing I wanted to bring up is this in that synopsis. It talks of how Veronica. Now, this is true. She's she's portrayed as being very intelligent, and she at one point in the film talks about how she was supposed to like be skip several grades. Yeah, and her parents decided against that. And so she teams up with what they call a dark sociopath. Now, the reason why I'm focusing on this is because I feel like in previous episodes we have talked about, like we've thrown that word around, and I at one point was like, what's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it has come up several times. It's come up, actually.
SPEAKER_00:And so, real quick, I just wanted to get that out of the way because actually I think they also pegged him incorrectly, JD, which is Christian Slater's character, Jason Dean. So here's what I found. I mean, obviously, you can have like a whole thing about this, but in real concise terms, so psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be can be seen by others as more charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk and criminal activities.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this sounds a lot like him.
SPEAKER_00:Sociopaths tend to be more erratic, rage prone, and unable to lead as much of a normal life.
SPEAKER_01:Well.
SPEAKER_00:So what do you think he is?
SPEAKER_01:He's definitely a sociopath. Oh. Wait, he's definitely a psychopath.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I think he's a psychopath. I think that they used the term incorrectly, but then again, I probably would have not known the difference up until two seconds ago.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, also she didn't team up with him. She unwittingly got like looped into this grander scheme that he had that like I think it's fair to say that she never actually intended to kill anybody.
SPEAKER_00:Crocked.
SPEAKER_01:Like ever. Ever. At any point.
SPEAKER_00:Ever. Yeah. And in case this isn't clear, so that's where this film is headed. Uh basically, Veronica, she meets a young transfer student, Jason Dean. He goes by JD. And he's he's all the things. He's dark and mysterious, and she's very attracted to that. And meanwhile, although she's part of this group of it's her and the three Heathers.
SPEAKER_02:The popular kids.
SPEAKER_00:The popular kids. She's she makes it very clear at one point. She's like, I don't like my friends. And so essentially what happens is there's a night where her and like the head Heather, kind of the queen bee of the group, Heather Chandler.
SPEAKER_01:I call her Red Heather because they all each of the three Heathers had these colors that kind of like that's how you could tell them apart. And so Red Heather was like the group, the the ringleader. I can't remember. Was Shannon Doherty blue? She was green. Green, okay, and then okay, so Doherty is green, and the other, the the third Heather was what?
SPEAKER_00:Yellow.
SPEAKER_01:Yellow?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And then Veronica was blue.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that actually As represented by their croquet balls.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. And actually, I think that was like a really smart move on the part of the filmmakers to use that in the film. I think that that was like kind of genius, actually. Not just to tell them apart. I mean, like, to be quite honest, Shannon Doherty doesn't look like the other two Heathers. The other two Heathers, they're both blondes. I could see how maybe you'd get them a little mixed up.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But also the color isn't just as a means to distinguish the different Heathers. It is actually used as the subtext of who holds the power at any given time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Whoever holds the red is the one in power.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's really interesting. I mean, this might be a perfect way to actually finally give you. I mean, I've been doing a lot of the talking, and you very early on said, okay, this film was bonkers. So like maybe expand on that.
SPEAKER_01:Like, like Well, I yeah, I I didn't want to start going into a lot of it until you had had the opportunity to kind of go through some of the cast and and uh other other people involved in the movie. I mean, so looking at the synopsis again, and it's like this person who doesn't like her friends, so she teams up with a sociopath. Well, it's he wasn't really a sociopath. She wasn't really ever intending to kill her friends, she was just like this really smart person who seemed kind of like bored with her stationary life. And that you know, they're they're all affluent families. Very much so. So she um I don't it wasn't clear to me, like they never really say that Christian Slater are like, oh, he's the new guy. He just started here like as of last week or something, but he's clearly like the new kid, and they eventually talk about how he is been moving around a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, at one point he says seven uh seven schools and seven states, and the only thing different is my locker combination.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean JD says a lot of like I'm 14 and this is deep things.
SPEAKER_00:He does. That's something that I want to get into a little bit later, the language of this film, because it's really interesting. But keep going.
SPEAKER_01:It's what I think now would be considered like really quote unquote edgy at times.
SPEAKER_00:The film content or the language?
SPEAKER_01:Uh well, and his character kind of.
SPEAKER_00:His character, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So after after um Veronica goes to a party, a university party. A Remington party.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't Remington University, which Well, what I read is that there's like this is just the most tenuous of connections, but okay. So to put it out there for you guys, one well, we were we already discussed. So JD and Veronica kind of unwittingly eventually come to kill several of the students in the school. And the reason I bring that up right now is because Remington is a type of gun, and apparently that's why they named the university that is that kind of connection there.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell, I did like that the high school, like their actual high school mascot was the Rottweiler.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you brought that up several times while we were watching it.
SPEAKER_01:I I defy you to find another actual high school with like the if it's a dog, it's like the bulldogs or something fun.
SPEAKER_00:That's true. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and I think Rottweilers back then had kind of a this perception that pit bulls do now. Where like I I don't think Rottweilers are considered exceptionally dangerous dogs now necessarily, but I feel like the reputation has kind of eased up a little bit. Yeah, but back then I I feel like that was totally intentional as well to like I don't know, show some like just how like starved for violence this school was or something. Anyways, I mean from uh the suicides to the murders to like the first the first like opening scene with Christian Slater when he's confronted by the two jocks and he pulls out a gun and fires a couple blanks at him. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It I mean that is why I think we pretty clearly said it at the top of the show, this movie just would not be made today.
SPEAKER_01:Because is there a school shooting? Yeah. Is there a school bombing? Mm-hmm. The language regarding uh gender and sexuality.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, exactly. Oh my goodness. It's there's big time.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't expect this because we've we've like kind of talked about through some of the other movies in Bloodsport and The Breakfast Club, probably less than the Breakfast Club.
SPEAKER_00:And that's actually something we should probably bring up at this very moment is kind of maybe a trigger warning that if you are not familiar with this film and you decide to watch it, there's some pretty crass and um I mean hostile uh derogatory type statements said about people who are gay. And you know, like I said, this is a movie that's 31 years old.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I mean, in in some of the other movies that we've seen, they've they've made references where we're like, oh, you couldn't do that. But in in this movie, they were more than just these like off-the-cuff references, they were actually like important plot points. They were used to drive the story in a way where I'm like they they could never do that because they couldn't even like cross that line to to move the story. And I get that uh you know, it was it was made in such a way to be in some ways like this dark comedy, almost a parody, and to directly address that like certain things like Teen Suicide had become like over-dramatized or romanticized in Hollywood. But holy shit, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so just putting it out there that if like you haven't seen the film and you decide to take a look, I I still it's it's a great film. I think it's also interesting in the context of like how far we've come in some ways and how we have kind of not come very far. We've actually regressed in other ways. Because we were talking about while we were watching the film, the reason why this film could even be made is because at the time, something like a school shooting or school bombing was seen as so far outside the the realm of reality that it was okay to kind of use it in the context of a dark comedy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure you know things like that have happened long before you know it became the problem that we're dealing with now, but yeah. Now it's just it's it's not something that you would be able to make light of or or portray in the way that this movie does. And on one hand, it's like, yeah, it's crazy, it's it's insane that they wouldn't be able to get away with that. And on the other hand, it's actually like deeply saddening to think about the reason why. Like we can't because of what's happened since this movie was made. And that's that's actually like really sad.
SPEAKER_00:The only thing that I'll say is a big positive is, you know, as we mentioned some of the language that's used in terms of referring to people who are gay or assumed to be gay or whatever the case may be, that would be 100% a no-go, I think, in in today's cinema. And I mean, unless like there was an angle being used where you are setting up the character using that kind of language is just a huge awful person, um, and you're using it towards that point. Otherwise. it would never be used in a comedic manner, certainly. And and that's great.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, the reason why this movie I'm sure is still like it's still a cult classic from the 80s. And I think there's a musical now of it. Yeah, I think I think so. But so when you when the movie or show or play is set in that time period, I feel like you can get away with a little bit more because people understand that this is how people like obviously it was not right, but this is how people would talk. Right. You know, in the 80s 90s. So like that being said, it is a good movie. It's a it's a freaking weird movie at times, but it is it is an outstanding movie with great performances.
SPEAKER_00:And I think so to kind of like move us along a little bit because then I want to play clip actually. Yeah we have a clip. Okay. And it's going to address kind of the next thing that I think is so interesting about this film. But in terms of plot, so because of kind of this um this fight that Veronica has with Heather Chandler, she kind of wants to get back at her a little bit. And so although she thinks all Veronica thinks that they're doing is serving up Heather like a really gross drink that is going to make her sick.
SPEAKER_01:Because Veronica got sick so she wanted to make Heather throw up. That's all she wanted to do was make her throw up.
SPEAKER_00:That's all she wanted. She wanted to give her milk and orange juice a little bit of comumpance, you know? And instead uh JD well okay here's what happens JD keeps pressing for them to do something more intense like cleaner fluid or whatever. And she very clearly and quickly says no that will kill her.
SPEAKER_01:It was like Draeno or something.
SPEAKER_00:Draeno. And even though I think if I'm remembering correctly like he pours he actually pours it out and she's like no no no no we're milk milk and orange juice that will suffice but she grabs the wrong one. He knows she grabbed the wrong she she grabbed it unwittingly. Yeah. He knows that she did and he makes a choice not to tell her. So he knows what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_01:Well she told him that she's never going to fall for this and so they find like a lid for the and because they're both covered she does she like you said unwittingly takes the one with the poison and he lifts up the lid and realizes that she's done that and just is like great. Yeah. I can finally fucking kill someone.
SPEAKER_00:This is what I wanted to do. Although you know when you say I can finally kill someone there's a little bit of ambiguity about both both him and his father I mean both of them are super weird and have a very strange relationship. And it's it's more than implied that his father killed his mother because basically his dad's in construction and he blows up a building that his mom was inside of. So he gets this you know urge to kill or the like I I don't know if he's just wired wrong, if it's DNA passed down, whatever the case may be, both him and his dad are super weird and it's I think there's some ambiguity about whether or not JD has actually killed someone before I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think that's fair. That's that's fair. I mean it's it seems like he's really good at it for not having done it before but but it it is unclear as to whether he's done it before.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm so long story short Heather drinks it and she dies.
SPEAKER_01:Immediately like I mean literally the second it touches her mouth she starts like and look I don't know I I'm not familiar with poison control protocol so maybe that's what would happen. But she she takes a big swig after like she does suspect she downs it she suspects that they're like giving her something gross and they like kind of go back and forth. She drains it and then she falls through like a glass table and that's it.
SPEAKER_00:And they just both kind of look around like oh she she dead so again and this is something I keep saying this and we will I promise go back to this the language in the film is so interesting. It's it has definitely like endured the the last couple decades. So Heather goes through the table first thing Veronica says is I just killed my best friend. Do you remember what JD says no he goes and your worst enemy and then her response is same difference.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah same difference.
SPEAKER_00:Same difference. So for a second Veronica's like we just committed murder what is happening and JD again this is why I don't think this is his first murder because he's like hey I know what we can do and they essentially set it up as a suicide one thing that they established early in the film is that Veronica can copy other people's handwriting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I I don't know if that's just um an attribute shared by people with high IQs that they're able to quickly and easily commit fraud.
SPEAKER_00:What else are you thinking of? Because you're obviously thinking of something else where they can do that.
SPEAKER_01:No no I'm not I've never seen it anywhere else. Oh okay okay I just thought it was funny they they do establish at the beginning they play a cruel prank on another one of her old friends and and JD is in the cafeteria kind of observing and I think picks up that that happened and he knows that she can basically forge anyone's writing so um I thought it was interesting also that when you know after she talks about like I just killed my best friend and your worst enemy she's really more preoccupied with the impact that will have on her ability to get into a good school after high school she's not she's not particularly sad that Heather's dead it's like this is really going to inconvenience me. Yeah this this whole murder thing.
SPEAKER_00:I mean even she has elements of you know whether it's psychopath sociopath she she does not really have a lot it it it comes eventually I think it does come but she in that moment doesn't have a ton of remorse for for what they did other than how is it going to affect her life moving forward.
SPEAKER_01:No and she was just pretty deeply traumatized by the experience at the Remington party with Heather so I don't know to what extent that had a role in her reaction or if it was just kind of just the theme of the movie where it's it is kind of like silly and ridiculous in how they treat most of the murders.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I mean the movie would be over if she was like this is awful I'm going to go turn ourselves into the police because I'm I'm so broken up about it.
SPEAKER_01:I mean look on one hand it's kind of ridiculous and we're giving a lot of a lot of shit for that reaction but also how many things have we watched recently like different TV series where it's like four episodes of the main protagonist saying no this isn't me this is what I want to do. Right. So I I was kind of happy to see where she's like okay yeah let's just go with this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Thank God. Exactly let's move this along so it's a success. They pull it off and here's the funny thing though is that in this quote suicide Heather Veronica again she says that in the film she like gains depth because they in the note, you know, talk about like oh nobody knows the real me, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01:And so there's a myriad of reasons.
SPEAKER_00:Yes and but it's it kind of actually like annoys Veronica that through this suicide Heather is actually looked upon even she's even more revered than she was in life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah she was I'd say that she was feared as much as she was admired when she was and the reason why uh Veronica wanted her dead was because she's she wasn't a good person. She was an awful human being. And so now in death it's like solidified her image as like this un like misunderstood great person who just lost that battle with her demons when in reality she was just a shitty person who was killed by her friend.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm so what actually ends up happening up next because we mentioned that there's murderers plural there are two jocks in school I mean very much set up as your I mean over the top stereotype of the same two that uh that confront JD at the beginning when he pulls out the gun and fires the blanks at them. So they're they're jerks they're they're objectively jerks and they they're set up that way that I think you also are meant to feel I mean it's the same in the case of Heather I think the only reason why the film works is because the people who are being murdered are it's like a Dexter situation. They are awful people. So even as an audience member you're you're not broken up over these people dying. They're like caricatures of awful people. Yeah. They're like these two guys are straight out of like revenge of the nerd type of things exactly exactly and so rumors are floating around school about Veronica that are untrue that she had basically like a threesome with these guys. And so again she thinks she's just they're they're just gonna scare them and JD comes up with this whole like elaborate plan of meeting with them early in the morning and he has a gun and and again at first she's like wait a minute like yeah this is a really interesting point with the uh with the guns because she's very concerned about the fact that like I didn't want to kill Heather I don't want to kill these two I just want to scare them.
SPEAKER_01:And so JD provides some additional explanation on the on the weapons and the bullets.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and I'm not gonna be able to like correctly it's German but basically what I did learn about the way he labels these bullets is that what he calls them is German for I'm lying.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah he asks her first do you speak German?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and she's like no I speak French and he's like great I'm gonna go ahead with this and essentially I mean it's here's the thing and he's not wrong after the fact of these next couple murders because he tells her oh don't worry about it. So basically like these are just bullets they're gonna break the skin they'll be bleeding they'll probably be unconscious but they're not dead.
SPEAKER_01:Well he said they have like tranquilizers so they break the skin and administer the tranquilizer and so you see a little bit of blood and they'll they'll be aware it's so convoluted.
SPEAKER_00:I mean it's so like really okay and she's kind of responds that way. She's like okay. Yeah and the thing is is again she's smart and so actually so they they successfully kill these two. And after the fact she's very upset with JD but he's like you knew like you you you wanted this to happen and actually I kind of believe that in a like a certain regard because she's not dumb. So I I don't think objectively she like wants to murder anyone but I think she she I don't know she kind of just um yeah let herself kind of get taken away by it all and I I don't know I see I see you reflecting on this and what are your things in in particular you're talking about their their like argument in the car yes afterwards right yeah and I think I think she is less upset with the fact that they're dead and more upset the fact that she was involved in their murder if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Like she doesn't like these guys I don't really care that they're dead but I don't want to like go to jail for killing them. Yeah. And like that's that's kind of like runs parallel to how she felt about Heather. Like I'm less upset about her death than I am the effect it will have on my future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and I mean I mean I guess my my uh point is that I think the film successfully kind of again sets up a little bit of ambiguity about how much she really realized what they were doing as they were doing it.
SPEAKER_01:I think I she got it I yeah she she got it when she shoots one of the one of the two uh jocks the other one runs off and Christian Slater goes after him I did appreciate that in the in the chase scene where this like football player who's obviously in much better shape than Christian Slater's character than JD they do make a point of showing you how he has one of his knees wrapped up. So I'm like okay maybe he can catch him so he can but while he's chasing this other guy down and he somehow like chases him right back to where they started okay but uh Veronica checks out the body of the one that he shot already and I think she knows at that point this guy's not just sleeping this guy he's dead we just killed him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Kurt and Ram are their names. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There is another very minor point involved with the killing of Kurt and Ram, which are the two police officers who you really like that are just kicking back, smoking a couple joints in their cop car and they hear the first uh gunshot they don't react the second one when uh JD kills either Kurt or Ram, the surviving uh flip that so JD had killed Ram.
SPEAKER_00:He he caused the first murder and then when he finally chased Kurt back to where Veronica was Veronica killed Kurt. Oh does she okay okay um but they hear the second gunshot and the guy's like I know I heard that that was that was definitely a gunshot and the other guy is just like so like let's roll yeah it's actually a really fun small moment but that's one of the few like cops were great laugh out loud moments for for me. That was really really great. Yeah it was just um yeah it was just it was good yeah good good comedy um so basically what ends up happening is at this point Veronica is done she's she's she's over this she's over JD she breaks up with him and from there on so JD has this like master plan you you don't you know something's going on you don't really know what he manages to blackmail Heather Duke who at this point so if if you remember what we were saying about kind of how they color coded the Heathers she's taking the red she's taking the red so she and you could also see it even beyond what she chooses to wear and how she goes from green to red her makeup her hair everything changes about her and I thought that that was like really effectively done to show this evolution of this character. And so anyway he blackmails her and one of the things that Heather Chandler used to do the one who's dead at this point is that she would do a lunchtime poll. And now Heather Duke is going to do a petition and so JD gets her to bring this petition around school all the different groups all the different cliques and get people to sign off on it. The thing is is that even she doesn't truly know what this petition is. She did make a choice when she was talking to these different groups to have the petition be something that would um encourage that particular group to sign off on it.
SPEAKER_01:They wanted to get the band the fictitious band Big Fun to show up at the school that's what JD tells her. Yeah. Yeah I can't remember what it was actually about but I I wanted to go back a little bit I I did find it interesting that the blackmail was him threatening to release pictures of the new Heather Red with again one of like her friends Martha yeah when they were Martha who's is that Martha Dumptruck is her well that's the that's the nickname. Yeah that's the nickname they give her uh yeah so that's she she is now so concerned with her image that just the possibility of being associated with somebody who's not as cool as like these popular kids was enough to like quite easily push her forward down this path.
SPEAKER_00:And the unfortunate thing is that this other character Martha so her real name is Martha Dunstock. Got it but they nickname her Dump Trunk. She's a larger character um hence the nickname and she she's she has an awful time at school she is she was the victim of one of the notes that She was the victim of the first prank that opens the opens the film and they show her periodically throughout the film she doesn't really have any friends and she's really struggling and so she pins a suicide note to her chest and walks out into traffic. She gets hurt but she survives and actually Heather Duke makes fun of her for as like quote a nerd or a loser or whatever she calls her not being as successful as the cool kids who actually killed themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Or so she thinks she couldn't even do that right.
SPEAKER_00:She couldn't even do that right.
SPEAKER_01:The is it Heather Duke is that Doherty Doherty Dowerty makes fun of the other the the other surviving Heather as well for falling into a uh kind of a self-help radio program to you know try to articulate her feelings and all this and so she's she's mocked for that by the new Heather Red yeah yeah I mean in some ways Heather Duke becomes even more vicious than the original. Yeah she's got a kind of shock and awe her way into this uh new role so everyone knows that she's the new uh new sheriff in town.
SPEAKER_00:But back to this petition so basically what this petition is I mean it's it's kind of I feel like a little bit of a weak point in the film that like nobody knows what this petition is and JD thinks that just by them signing off, like I don't anyway Well one of them signed off with gum. He put gum on the line so you know here's what it is. JD basically has a petition saying that like the students of it's uh the high school they go to is Westerberg Westerburg High that they are all going to blow themselves up uh in protest of I don't even know what really it's like uh I think in protest of quote unquote society.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah yeah pretty much we live in a society he also had wanted to kill Veronica she sets up her own suicide she makes it look like she hung herself he wants to kill her because she's made it very clear at this point shortly after the the death of um the two football players that she doesn't want any part of this she's she's done um and so of course he has to kill her.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah he comes into her bedroom sees her quote dead and that's how she kind of escapes him killing her but now she's back in school she gets wise to what's going on she figures out what his plan is and there's a boiler room under they're supposed to have this pep rally or something like that where basically everybody in the school would be gathered in the gym. Uh the boiler room is underneath the gym. So he goes underneath because his dad works into construction, he has access to dynamite. So he sets up a bomb underneath the school she finds him they argue first and then they uh confront each other wrestling she shoots off one of his fingers she somehow gets a hold of a gun I don't know where she gets this gun. Yeah I don't I don't so I think And she has a gun and he doesn't which is interesting too he had the gun and maybe it came loose when they were fighting. But she comes down the stairs and she already has the gun in her hands. You're right. So so I don't know anyway it's fine.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know where she got the marksman skills and pretty good shot. Yeah she's not a bad shot.
SPEAKER_00:She essentially and this is another it's a little bit contrived but I sorry throw her on that word a lot but essentially what happens is this she first shoots out shoots off one of his fingers then she shoots him several times in the general like chest area. He has a knife and basically what he does in this moment is he like sticks the knife into the bomb which stops it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it was it was pretty magical. It's magical movie magic. And so what I understood was the the charges and look this guy had like I I think I'm not exaggerating when I say he had 5,000 sticks of dynamite. Yeah I mean he could have blown up way more than the school and and all the roles of electric tape too because he was very like very specific in how he was uh affixing these bundles of dynamite to different parts in the gym like under the bleachers none of those I think had a timer they were all just intended to go off after the one in the boiler room which did have a timer so that would go off and then detonate everything else in the gym. I appreciated at least one thing they tried to explain I don't know if even that's how it would work but hey that's fine. Exactly. Yeah so she was threatening to shoot him unless he told her how to turn off the timer of the of the charge in the boil room and like the knife just solved all of those problems. All all fixed. I I think I still would have like reported a bomb threat at that point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and here's the thing too so she does the movie thing where she shoots him but she's I mean it's like this is more of a horror movie.
SPEAKER_01:Double tap.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly I mean if this guy's about to blow up the school and he was going to kill you I'd I would make sure he is dead.
SPEAKER_01:Just empty that revolver.
SPEAKER_00:Just empty it but instead she walks out she walks outside and here's what's interesting is that spoiler he's not dead he's he's gravely injured but he's not dead mortally mortally injured and honestly all he had to do was probably reset that bomb which I I have no doubt he would have known how to do and continue to blow up the school. He could have done that. He could have instead what he did is he strapped the bomb to himself.
SPEAKER_01:I don't yeah so is that's what he did then he didn't he didn't have one already strapped on himself. He decided like look he moved it to himself I'm gonna blow this all up but you know what Veronica you won so I'm gonna go outside and just it it doesn't really make sense but here's the thing um so as often happens what you f see in a final film is not what was in the original script.
SPEAKER_00:Oh and that's the case with this film. Okay. Is that actually the original ending is that he successfully blows up the school and everybody in it.
SPEAKER_01:I love that that's where they drew the line in this movie.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah exactly no and that's actually true they said that that was too dark. What was going to happen because he actually and this is why it's kind of a weird line that he says in the film that actually makes it into the final cut because when he is in the boiler room with Veronica and they are fighting each other, he pleads well plead plead isn't exactly the word but like he's like the only way that different groups can get along is in heaven. He throws out this line where you're like well that's kind of weird. Yeah that all of a sudden he's bringing in like heaven and hell into this but the reason being I think that that's a leftover line from the original script where the school was successfully blown up and actually what they what the writer had intended is that you did have a scene in heaven where they're all like at prom and they are all getting along.
SPEAKER_01:Oh okay that would have been I mean it it went far enough to where I fully expected everyone to get blown up. And again I hadn't seen it and I hadn't even like really taken the time to like I I didn't know. I didn't know it was going to happen and I was kind of disappointed because I felt like at this point just go all the way. Yeah it that's why it's like it's a little bit of a weird pivot that he but that's it's essentially because I mean he blows himself up with several sticks of dynamite and Veronica's sole reaction is to put a cigarette in her mouth and wait for the explosion to light the cigarette I guess and it's like kind of like an almost cartoonish explosion where she like her hair is all crazy and on end and she's like covered in soot.
SPEAKER_00:I mean she's pretty uh secure in the assumption that she's not gonna get hurt by this person blowing themselves up in front of her I would be like okay well I'll see ya I would not be sticking around I have not I have not seen this exact scenario on an episode of Mythbusters but I've seen some that come close and I'm just gonna say I was really worried for her. Yeah no absolutely I mean one moment that this to me believe it or not feels like the darkest moment in this film and that's when they're both standing outside the timer's going off and it freezes and JD kind of hits the the thing the box and oh yeah and it starts back up. It starts back up that to me is an incredibly dark moment. Because he's like, no I'm sure yeah where he had a chance to save himself and he doesn't and that to me was I mean most of this movie I kind of can can just like let it like go over me but that moment is actually kind of a hard moment to watch uh it's still a tie for me with that in every other dark moment because there are so many there's a lot. So okay so that's how the film ends uh and oh and actually one thing that's kind of important to bring up is very last scene Veronica walks back inside everybody pep rally's over everybody's going to their class she comes across Heather Duke Heather Duke says you look like hell and she's like yeah I just got back again just so many lines in this film that are great and then she grabs the red like scarf that's in Heather Duke's hair and says Heather my love there's a new sheriff in town and she wraps it around her hair now that possibly could be seen as like oh no is Ronica gonna kind of take over as like kind of this like head for lack of a better word like head bitch of the school but instead what she does is she finds Martha and she asks Martha hey you know I don't have any plans for prom, do you want to hang out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think like what I took from that is that the the whole reign of the cool kids it's over was over. And like it's just gonna be a school where they actually treat each other like reasonable human beings. I did there was one line thinking of being treated like a human being where when Nona Ryder's character Veronica ta is talking to her parents and tells her mom that teenagers just want to be treated like human beings and her mom responds with if you don't like how you're being treated then it's probably because you're being treated like human beings. Like an adult.
SPEAKER_00:Like an adult yeah yeah I thought no that's a great line I like that it's so I mean there's so many and and now we're gonna finally get to that point that I keep talking about. So I mentioned well let's start with the clip.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah okay.
SPEAKER_00:So the reason why I picked this clip so this is the clip where Heather uh Veronica meets JD for the first time in the cafeteria.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And there's so many clips in this film where you can kind of prove this point. It this gives you a little bit of an insight into the really unique language of this film and very very yeah how very the unique language of this film maybe even you know you would come to be like oh my god this is the film that I actually like know this line from and maybe you hadn't known that it was from this film. And also it sets up the dynamic between Veronica and JD, the their way of communicating with each other. And then also we're gonna talk about this too is JD or really Christian Slater's acting choice. Sure. All right in the way that he speaks.
SPEAKER_03:So let's let's uh start it Veronica Drummond Jason Dean my American history This may seem like a really stupid question. You inherit five million dollars the same day aliens land on the earth and say they're gonna blow it up in two days what do you do?
SPEAKER_00:Stupidest question I've ever heard who's that guy in the code think he is anyways who did lead us in his acting outly rolling up to the middle of a lake somewhere bring along a bottle of tequila my sacks and uh some lucky come on Veronica later definitely so that was the clip I think another thing that I didn't mention before we played it was that I think it sets up really nicely the dynamic between most of the main players in this film. Yeah I think so you see how Heather interacts with Veronica you actually even see how the other Heathers interact with Veronica before she walks up to JD uh you get a quick uh glance at Kurt and Ram and and who they Are in this film. So you get a little bit of everybody. But like I mentioned, I think that one thing that is so interesting about this film is the language of it. And we talked about in the very first episode, The Breakfast Club, how by and large, it felt like the characters in that film spoke the way real teenagers would.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like this film is the complete opposite.
SPEAKER_01:I I think so as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I mean, props to the writer, because look, writing dialogue is not easy. And a lot of things could have really fallen flat. One thing that this film does exceptionally well, even though the language is is really artificial, I and you if it if it's the tone of the film, I'll say that much.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it does. And they all they all stick with it. They stay committed to kind of like that that theme where it's this theme theme of like superficial high schooler, like rich, affluent high schoolers that all yeah, all the language is is kind of like it goes part in parcel with a lot of their other behavior, which is intended to just keep up with to distinguish like we're the cool kids and we talk like this, and you're because Betty Finn doesn't talk that way. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Betty Finn talks very average, like a normal person. A normal person. But uh, you know, like in this clip, when she first works up, can't talk, walks up to JD, he says, greetings and salutations. Like who no nobody a high schooler.
SPEAKER_01:I've never said hello to anyone or introduced myself to anyone like that ever.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And one thing that I mean I love about the film is the way that some of this language, as I've mentioned, has kind of carried on in in pop culture since how very, which is mentioned in this particular clip. Uh I know I used to say that.
SPEAKER_01:I've never used that.
SPEAKER_00:I okay. Well, I'll say this much. Because most of the characters in this film are female, I feel like probably it's it's women who have continued on with a lot of these things. Uh, I certainly said, what's your damage at certain points?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm I've I've heard that before. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:One thing that uh I can't say that I've like said in real life, but another line from the film, you're beautiful, in a very sarcastic kind of you know, opposite kind of way. Same difference. I said that all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All the time. And then there are just lines that I think are really memorable. Some of them are just a little crass. I'm not gonna bring up all of them, but are we going to prom or to hell? I love that line.
SPEAKER_01:I like when she says, I I think I hate my friends, and JD says, I think I hate them too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You le uh you left at that moment. You like that one. Chaos is what killed the dinosaurs. It's not, but I mean I mean, in a really grand scheme kind of way.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, maybe in like a Jeff Goldblum chaos theory from Jurassic Park kind of way, but Oh my gosh, they stole that from Heathers.
SPEAKER_00:And another one of my favorites is my teen ink's bullshit now has a body count. I think that's that's a good one.
SPEAKER_01:That should be on the uh that should have been on the VHS tape rental packaging.
SPEAKER_00:So outside of the dialogue in this film, we actually also have the the way that this dialogue is spoken, specifically through the character of JD, Christian Slater. Christian Slater has mentioned, and if you haven't seen this film, if you get the chance, you'll probably be like, why does he talk that way? And why does it also seem vaguely familiar to me? It's because he made a deliberate choice to play it kind of as Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_01:He did it so well that like it's it's the thing that is still most striking to me when I watch it is how much his his like dialogue and speech and mannerisms remind me of of Jack Nicholson. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:He's he's good at it, but I mean, here's here's where I guess I stand with this. As an actor, I don't fault him for trying this way of of portraying this character. As the director, I'm shocked that he let him do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If I were the director, I'd be like, no, dude. Like, no. And also apparently, Christian Slater did reach out to Jack Nicholson and be like, hey, I did this movie and I kind of did it like you. And then I guess Jack Nicholson never responded. I'm like, of course he never responded. I'd be like annoyed that some little upstart kid was like, Oh, I like I wonder, uh, I wonder if he's responded ever.
SPEAKER_01:Like at this point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, at this point. Maybe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um I want to think that that that he did.
SPEAKER_00:I just thought that that was just so bizarre. Yeah. So bizarre.
SPEAKER_01:It was weird. I mean, if we're gonna talk about bizarre things, I feel like we haven't talked about Veronica's monocle yet.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I just it's there's not really anything to talk about other than when she would write in her diary, which was used to kind of push the narrative through, she would grab this monocle and put it like in her right eye.
SPEAKER_00:It would feel I I think it would feel really uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01:And when she writes, it's like this whole body like activity where like she's really animated with this monocle in, like, writing these giant it was, I just thought like she has some really intense journaling sometimes. It's really intense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, she's it's very, it's actually kind of exactly what she said. It's very teen angsty.
SPEAKER_01:Like nothing, nothing can happen in this movie that's normal. Like nothing. Even the interaction with her parents, every like after the first interaction with them, you realize, oh, she basically has like the same interaction with her parents every time where her dad is doing something and asks himself, why am I doing this? And she says, Because you're an idiot. And he says, Oh yeah, that's why.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I don't have time to finish this pate. I have to go somewhere.
SPEAKER_00:I think that the only two moments where she is quote normal or lets down her guard or whatever the case may be, is when she is playing croquet with Betty Finn. I think she acts pretty normal. Yeah. And then at the very end, when she's talking to Martha and asking her to hang out during prom.
SPEAKER_01:There are a couple moments after she's first met JD, like when they're like after they've hooked up, where it seems like she has let her guard down and is just acting like a normal high school teenager. Yeah. And I think that's because she does not yet realize what a psychopath JD is.
SPEAKER_00:But also, I kind of I still feel that just honestly, it's not really a knock on the character at all. I think it's just the way that like human nature is, and she portrays it well. That when you're a girl who is kind of enraptured with this like new crush and this new love interest, like you act kind of cutesy and this and that, and I think there's an element of that in that scene as well. So I I guess not not to try to force the point, but I think that she's most herself when she's around other people who are just they're they're also not trying to be anybody except themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I so it's a little bit of both, possibly, where she she is like just still like crushing on him. And also at that time, I don't think she thought that he had any other like hidden agenda, and certainly not an agenda of murder.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, completely agree with you. So okay, so we're gonna run into some fun facts now, but I hope they're fun. Yeah, they're they're I think they're pretty fun.
SPEAKER_01:I'm actually more concerned about them being fun than facts.
SPEAKER_00:Fair enough. One thing though, because this pa podcast is called 80s movie montage.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We do have a montage in the film.
SPEAKER_01:It's you have much stricter uh interpretations of that than I do.
SPEAKER_00:Do I?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Do you feel like there's more than one montage in this film?
SPEAKER_01:No, I just don't care if there's one.
SPEAKER_00:Don't say that. That's like the whole crux of the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I've said before, I look at the entirety of the podcast. It will be its own montage.
SPEAKER_00:But you know what? If we have if we have listeners out there who are like, okay, what about the montage? Name shows called the 80s movie montage.
SPEAKER_01:I wanna, I wanna How about the montage in this movie?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So I mean, it comes pretty far in, and honestly, like it's it's fine. It's when basically Heather Duke is getting the petition signed. They do a really quick, I mean, it's not even a minute long montage of her going around school to all these different groups and getting them to sign off.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So it that's what's going on. It's super quick. Um, I try to bring up the music that's going on, it's intra instrumental, and so I believe that it's just David Newman doing part of his score during the film. And as far as like, is it effective or how's it how it relates to the rest of the film? Basically, at this point, we just need to get to the final act.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's kind of the sense I got as well. They're like, We have this petition thing, I don't know. We just need to move it along. People need to sign up. Okay, maybe we'll have Heather sitting on this, like at this window, just like pondering how great she is. Who knows?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it could it it intercuts between her getting people to sign off on it to her kind of reveling her own glory.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So short-lived as it will be.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. So it's uh it's effective, it works, it gets us to where we need to go. So, okay, back to these fun facts. So one thing that is shown throughout the film, it starts, I think, with Heather Duke, when the very first scene when they are playing croquet, she has with her the book Moby Dick.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:And eventually that book is used, like for instance, when there's this I I guess you would call it a nightmare sequence where you actually don't realize at first, I think, that that it's not real, where JD is now forcing Ronica to help him kill Hather Duke. And and you re you realize that it's it's Ronica having a nightmare.
SPEAKER_01:So it didn't right away. It took me a little while to to figure that out. Um because the rest of the movie is so like bizarre that I for a while I'm like, oh yeah, this this might actually be happening.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that's completely intentional. I think you're meant to think that it's actually happening. And basically what he does is he's like telling her that uh they can underline different passages in Moby Dick to make it seem as if like that, like that essentially is her suicide note. And what is interesting about them using this book in the film, so originally what they wanted to do is they wanted to use the book Catcher in the Rye. That makes sense by JD Salinger. And I also think it's funny that they wanted to use this book by a gentleman who has the same initials as the character in the film, but as JD Salinger kind of is, he refused to give uh the rights to to let them use it or permission. And so they went with Moby Tink just because it's in the public domain and they don't need to get rights from anybody. So, but I actually think it works better because I think it's more effective to have this totally random book that isn't really connected in any way thematically to the film rather than catching the rye, which is also about teen angst and about going through that period of life.
SPEAKER_01:It's yeah, it's too there are too many connections that could be made and it would, I think, detract from the overall like film. So, like, yeah, using Moby Dick, it was it was like what? I think it works.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Like I I I I get it. I get why they would have maybe chosen Catch on the Rye initially, but no one would miss it, and no one did miss it.
SPEAKER_01:But if it had been in there, I think it would have been more of a distraction to everything else going on in the film.
SPEAKER_00:I totally agree, yeah. So one thing that we usually bring up during the segment is uh the number of actors or actresses who maybe had been considered f for the film and ultimately didn't make it or or they didn't want to be in the film. So for some of the actors who are considered for JD, uh-huh. Brad Pitt.
SPEAKER_01:I could see that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I'm like having a hard time picturing him super young. Because I can't, like, I just can't picture him being so young that he would look like he was in high school.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I think I could have used would have been a Christian Slater doing an impersonation of Brad Pitt doing an impersonation of Jack Nicholson.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so moving on. Uh also people who were considered Jim Carrey. I feel like Jim Carrey is like considered for every teen role that we've talked about so far in the 80s. I think. That seems to come up a lot.
SPEAKER_01:That would have that would have worked, but that's only because we've seen Jim Carrey in more dramatic roles, and so we know that he could, but back then I feel like definitely would have like the manic side of JD down. Yeah, it would have been in some ways an even more frightening movie with him in that in that kind of role.
SPEAKER_00:I think he'd be a little over the top as he kind of is known for, but Judd Nelson.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:But then essentially he'd just be doing like his John Bender role to, you know, the eighth degree.
SPEAKER_01:That would have worked out fine for me if this had been like a spiritual sequel to The Breakfast Club, where John Bender's dad cleans up his act, becomes a success successful construction company owner and businessman. Their mom is killed in this freak accident, and John Bender becomes the psychopath, killing high school students. Boom. Moving on.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, moving on. Uh Jason Bateman.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I could have seen that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I could, I could kind of see that. And then the one that this would have been very interesting casting, Johnny Depp.
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think he would have been most similar in tone to Christian Slater.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that like, all joking aside, that probably would realistically be the one that would have worked and kept the same kind of movie that we got with Slater in it.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed.
SPEAKER_01:With all those other actors, I think it would have worked. It would have been fine, but I think it would have been a slightly different like feel for the movie.
SPEAKER_00:As far as Veronica goes, uh apparently Jennifer Connolly had actually been offered the role but turned it down.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that I'm trying to think of what else Jennifer Connolly would have been in around this time.
SPEAKER_00:Well, wasn't she in Labyrinth?
SPEAKER_01:And that I feel is a very different like movie as far as tone, and maybe that had something to do with why I don't know if I want to go from this like fantasy to school shooting, bombing. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:That's just it, is that if I'm remembering correctly, I didn't write this down, but I remember reading that uh Winona Ryder's agent was like, do not take it. Begging her not to take it because it will ruin your career. Kill your career.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It it did not.
SPEAKER_00:No, and also I read that in part the reason why she took it is because she did want to bring light to this issue of teen suicide.
SPEAKER_01:I s so I don't know what impact this had, if any, on that after afterwards. I don't know because I didn't it wasn't really on my radar when it originally came out. And so when I think about it, I think of just this like really hyper ultra dark comedy, but I don't know if people like actually took any lessons from it.
SPEAKER_00:In that regard, yeah. I don't know. Uh the song that is This is my favorite fun fact. Yeah, okay. Well then you say it.
SPEAKER_01:So I think we mentioned the the fictional band Big Fun. They were, you know, in the movie because of their song, Teenage Suicide, Parenthetical, Don't Do It. Uh, it's actually a spoof of a real song called Don't Try Suicide, which was released by Queen in 1980.
SPEAKER_00:There you go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that fact. That's great.
SPEAKER_00:Isn't that cool? Just like the show I think I was mentioning when we were watching the Colin show that the teens in this film listen to. It's called Hot Props. And that was like a spoof of Love Line.
SPEAKER_01:Indeed. Hosted by I think uh when we saw the the credits role, the actor who played that that DJ was Poor Man from K-Rock. And there's like a whole lot of like weird story stories you know about that world much better than I do. Yeah, K-Rock local station in Los Angeles had uh this morning show, Kevin and Bean, and there's like if you if you Google K-Rock, Kevin and Bean and Poor Man, you will have reading for for possibly hours, if if not minutes.
SPEAKER_00:So another fun thing, this is something that actually I had kind of noticed on my own and wondered if it was intentional, the fact that Betty and Veronica, they're also names from Archie's, from the Archie comic strip. Okay. And that is indeed where their names came from. Nice. Yeah. Speaking of names, so we have three Huthers in this film. So Hother is said many times over, and apparently somebody like counted, and it said 90 times.
SPEAKER_01:I like that. That's a good stat. That reminds me of like the blood sport stats at the end.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like at some point I'm gonna have to watch the movie and do my own count just to see if that is totally factory.
SPEAKER_01:Well, like I said, the the fun part means more to me than the facts. So you don't have to.
SPEAKER_00:So here's the last one I got. And I feel like regardless of it being true, it's not super effective because like I didn't notice it at all. And I've watched this film so many times at this point, I've never noticed it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:That after each death scene, so Heather and Kurt and Ram, or I guess I should so first Heather, then Ram, then Kurt, actually, that you can hear a crow calling, like to kind of signal their death.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that it gets louder with each of the each of the subsequent deaths.
SPEAKER_01:I definitely did not notice that.
SPEAKER_00:Me neither. So we're gonna have to maybe go back to the tape and see if we can notice it.
SPEAKER_01:But I mean, that's a good segue to something that you often ask me, which is Yes. Would you watch this again?
SPEAKER_00:So are you asking me right now?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, would you watch this movie again?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's again one of those films where I'm not sure. I could, you know what I could see myself doing? I could see myself having like a girls' night with some friends and sitting down and this being one of the movies that we watch. Or I could very much see us going to because this is something that I don't it's certainly not specific to LA. We just maybe have a longer season for it. Outdoor movies. Yeah. Uh there's Yeah, that'd be interesting. So many, so many places around town. Well, not at this very moment, but normally there are so many places around town that do outdoor movie screenings.
SPEAKER_01:And there are people that go to those outdoor screens where you can tell this might be the first time this person has has seen this movie.
SPEAKER_00:Not as much, but I would for sure do it for something like that because I think that would be really fun. Yeah. I don't know if I would be sitting on the couch and saying, you know what, I'm gonna watch others from start to finish. So so that's probably not gonna happen, but I think for sure I'd watch this film again. How about you?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I mean, I I I might probably about the same. I'm not going out of my way to see it. I can recognize it for kind of the cult status that it has achieved. And it it's just an interesting film to think about how they were able to make this and the reasons why they were able to make it and and why it would never be made today. I mean, we've gone over that uh ad nauseum at this point, but that's that's probably my biggest takeaway. Isn't just that it wouldn't be, but like the reasons why and and like obviously some parts of it are more problematic than others, but uh just in general, that's it's like it's like really looking through like you don't really look through a time machine, but it's like looking looking into history, like how we could actually have like created this. It's so no, you cannot fair.
SPEAKER_00:So as far as like a call to action, you know, I was thinking about this one, and this is probably like so lame, but the only call to action I could really think of is asking people if they would have had like a sick or if they did, because kids are weird, if they have like a signature color.
SPEAKER_01:I have a I have a great call to action also. Oh we can have two, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, yours is probably gonna be better than mine. I will say that I did go through various periods in school where at one point I only wore black and white clothes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And another period in school I only wore blue. So I kind of was a Veronica for a while. All right. What's your call to action?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so here's my call to action. You inherit five million dollars. And then the same day, aliens show up and say they're gonna blow up the planet in two days. So what do you do?
SPEAKER_00:That's great.
SPEAKER_01:Um That's our uh that's our daily poll.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, we'll we'll leave it there. In case you haven't seen the film, you're like, what? But uh, and if you if you do want to get into contact with us, we'd love for you to. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. The handles are the same for all three. It's at 80smontage pod. P O D and 80s is 80S. So 80s Montage Pod. All right, sneak peek next week or next two weeks from now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, what is it? Is it my pick? It's your pick. Well, then I'm just gonna I can pick whatever.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, you can, but we I'm gonna pick Real Genius. Oh, thank goodness. Okay, I was like, do not pick one of my films.
SPEAKER_01:Nope. Uh Real Genius starring Val Kilmer and I'm your Huckleberry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Is that the same film?
SPEAKER_01:It's not the same film. I know. No.
SPEAKER_00:I figured.
SPEAKER_01:Uh but Real Genius is coming up in two weeks, and I'm really looking forward to that because it is a much lighter-hearted movie.
SPEAKER_00:Me too, because I have never seen it start to finish.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't know how well it's aged. It's a lot of these things, it's it's different when you are seeing it for the first time. So I'm interested to see how what you think.
SPEAKER_00:I know this is for sure Val Kilmer pre-Doc Holiday, and I'm guessing this is also Val Kilmer pre-Iceman Iceman.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah. Got it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. All right. Well, that's all we got. Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_01:We'll try to do better next time and wrap it up.