Jason Conley of Envista Forensic, join your hosts this week. Jason describes what information your phone holds and tells about you?
Jason Conley, Digital Forensics Examiner
Contact Info
Cell: 1 647 208 0482
Office: 437 317 0580
Email: Jason.Conley@envistaforensics.com
WEBSITE: www.envistaforensics.com
Here is how you can get in touch with your hosts:
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
summitrisksolutions.ca
Summit Risk Solutions
Chris Harris
Chris@safetydawg.com
safetydawg.com
Safety Dawg Inc.
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Jason Conley of Envista Forensic, join your hosts this week. Jason describes what information your phone holds and tells about you?
Jason Conley, Digital Forensics Examiner
Contact Info
Cell: 1 647 208 0482
Office: 437 317 0580
Email: Jason.Conley@envistaforensics.com
WEBSITE: www.envistaforensics.com
Here is how you can get in touch with your hosts:
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
summitrisksolutions.ca
Summit Risk Solutions
Chris Harris
Chris@safetydawg.com
safetydawg.com
Safety Dawg Inc.
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Hey. Thanks for coming to the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast. Welcome back. We're gonna have a good episode today here. We've got a good friend of ours who's been on the show once before and he's back for more punishment and abuse. Jason Conley of Invista Forensic. This is the guy that can tell you what's going on with your cell phone, all the little things you have no idea are in that little device. Well get ready. He's gonna talk to us about some new stuff and what's happening and what he's seeing going. So let's get into her with my cohost Chris Harris. Yay, Chris. Hey Jason. How you doing? Jason Conley, Envista Forensics: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me back.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Jason, tell us a little bit about yourself. And about, uh, forensics.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Sure thing. You bet I'd be happy too. So, um, as uh, John mentioned, I'm, uh, working with Invista Forensics. I've been a digital forensic examiner for almost 20 years. Um, uh, in the beginning it was. Just computers because that's, you know, that was what was front and center. Um, but it evolved, you know, very much. And, um, as you can imagine now today, there's a whole bunch of sub-categories of forensics, computer forensics, mobile forensics, um, You know, a whole bunch of different areas. Even cell site location analysis where we grab data. Yeah. We grab data from call detail records, the stuff that Big Brother keeps to make sure big brother knows where all of us are, every millisecond of the day. And, um, and, and we can actually take the data, uh, from those records and we could go drive out and drive around the cell towers and validate whether, you know, whether, uh, You know, certain details are true or not because they're usually presented, you know, in a court of law, sometimes by law enforcement, you know, big cases. Um, uh, the last case, uh, we were involved in, in Canada was actually the Oland murder trial. Remember that big one out on the east coast? Yeah. Which trial? Sorry. The Oland murder trial. Remember when, uh, the, the senior fellow there was murdered and his son was, uh, accused of murdering his dad? Big billionaire family out there. Yep. That was a real big deal. It uh, in fact, there was a documentary made about it, uh, on cbc. Yeah. I was the part of the CBC gem series called The Murder. Yeah. Anyway, we were involved in the second, uh, the second trial and, uh, he actually got acquitted and, you know, the cell. Played a pretty important, uh, piece of evidence in that case. Oh, interesting. So, yeah, so the stuff, you know, Mo again, most people have no idea, uh, just how much, um, Yeah. Tracking is going on, uh, and how much data is available. And those little friendly devices that we carry around in our. So, mm-hmm.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:something we don't seem, we for some reason, we can't seem to do without anymore.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Correct. In fact, us Canadians, they, we are the most connected people around the world. We have, on average ridiculous, like 2.2 cell phones per person, something like that. Wow. Actually have better internet speeds than most of our, our, our colleagues around the world, so, Oh wow. I
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:really find that hard to. That we have 2.2 cell phones because of the exorbitant cost of one and, and the data rates, but we won't go there. That's not bashing the telcos gets me nowhere.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Oh gosh.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Let, let's get into trucking and your role in trucking forensics. What should a driver do after calling emergency personnel or, and, uh, that's an OR and his employer after a significant event?
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Awesome question. Yes. So, uh, this is, this is an area of opportunity, um, very much, very much so in the, in, in the realm of, of the trucking industry. Um, because very few times do we, we get a call that is, um, ripe and immediate, um, which is the ideal scenario, right? Um, so, so essentially, you know, Once the emergency has been dealt with, you know, once, once any injured parties, you know, that sort of thing. Once that, you know, nine one one call per se, uh, has happened and, um, you know, the scene is settled in that regard. One of the very first things that, um, should happen is that any. Sources of evidence are preserved. Right. Um, it's, it's, you know, it's a given that in the trucking industry due to the, you know, the value and possibly, you know, the, the high impact of that accident. Um, All sources of evidence are gonna be really important. Obviously, if, uh, you know, the police are showing up, um, you, you see the first thing that they do, they wanna line up the witnesses, right? They wanna get all the witnesses, uh, interviewed. They wanna keep them separate. They want, you know, they, that's one of their highest priorities after personal safety is get interviews done as quickly as. Uh, before anybody takes off. And what's the reason for that? Well, people take off if we have to hunt them down later. Well, things can change. Their story can change, their memory can change. Um, all kinds of variables come into the picture. Well, it's just the same with digital evidence. Um, you know, our, our phones are changing every. Like literally every second that they're on, um, the data is changing. It's a moving target. And so every, you know, every hour that passes, uh, every day that passes, et cetera, the more change happens on their phone. And potentially, um, there's a, there's a, there's a risk that important evidence will disappear. Now. Now, of course, you know, there's two sides to that coin. Um, if. The driver believes they are, you know, they are in the right, um, that they were, you know, driving safely, that they were using their phone safely, if at all.. Mm-hmm. that, you know, That should be, you know, and, and, and what is really who we're, who we're addressing here today. You know, it's very, very important that you know, these folks understand that this, you know, this, this volatile evidence will be their best friend in protecting them because what's the number one accusation today? Distracted driver. Yeah. Distracted
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:driving. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Of course, the driver was texting at that time. Mm-hmm.. John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:. . Absolutely.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:And I mean, and we've seen some wild ones, you know, uh, we've, I
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:can imagine. Well, I'm thinking, Jason, with your, um, forensics, you can prove or disprove the truth to the statement, right? Mm-hmm., Jason Conley, Envista Forensics: So if the truth is on your side, I'm your best friend. Right? If the truth is not on your side, and, and if I'm hired by the other side, I'm your worst nightmare . Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jason, what's the benefit of, um, I mean, when we were talking earlier, you had said that you had, you now carry a burner. Yes. Uh, with you. So yes. Can you explain why a driver might want a burner phone and the advantages of, of having that? Why do you carry a burner phone and explain exactly. First of all, perhaps what is a burner phone? Burner phone?
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Yeah. So, so the term burner phone actually has a bit. Um, sinister connotation to it because that, that, initially I think that that term was allocated, um, um, by law enforcement in reference to what drug dealers carry because it's a phone that they would easily dispense with and move on to another one. So that, let's leave that connotation. Uh, definitely aside, you could call this spare phone if you like. Um, but yeah, I'm actually, I'm one of those strange people that ends up with three phones in their. Possession, the personal, the business, and what I inappropriately call my burner phone. Um, yeah, but no, the, I I always keep a, a spare phone on hand. That's, you know, fully connected. It's, it's a new phone. It's got all the apps, everything. So that, um, If a, if a trucking driver is in trouble, um, you know, one of you good folks can call me. I'll meet up with them immediately and be able to put this in their hand only because most drivers only have one phone. Um, and this gives them the comfort of saying, of knowing, Okay, I can continue with my life, I can continue with my day. Um, because my, my, my forensic buddy Jason has my phone. He's gonna need it for a few. Maybe a day at most. But this, you know, this offers the convenience of allowing them to carry on. That's really what this is all about. Um, and it's, you know, it is vital that you know that I get that phone from them as soon as possible. It's absolutely as soon as possible. Some, you know, I've had cases where I've drove, driven out and met with a driver the very same day, um, to, to, to make that. Now I will back up a little bit and say the best case scenario, honestly. Um, and if there happens to be, you know, some insurance coverage in the picture, um, and pro, you know, undoubtedly the employer's already lining up counsel, right? Mm-hmm., um, the best case scenario is we buy them a. Uh, and I'll tell you why. I mean, one, yeah, they just went through a traumatic, uh, uh, incident, um, mm-hmm. and, and the significance of buying them a new phone. And ideally, you know, we find out, we go and find a, a good match. You know, if they had a Samsung nine, let's go get them a Samsung nine or, or something comparable. iPhone 13. Let's go, go out and get whatever, whatever the latest one is. But what, what I can do quite easily is, Just simply create, uh, you know, when I cloud back up or you know, when the Google, you know, with Google, we've got the cloud for that as well. I could just simply back up everything off the old phone and upload it to the new phone and boom, they're walking away with the exact same phone, probably a slightly newer one. Um, that is the best case scenario and I'll tell you why. Um, I'll try, I'll try not to get too technical on this, but. When it comes to computer forensics, it's very, very easy for us forensic examiners to come and clone a hard drive from a computer so we can make an exact copy bit for bit with the tools we have very easily. And we're able to later stand up in a court of law and a test and prove very easily that those two hard drives, uh, the copy and the original are I. It's not like that in the world of mobile forensics. Mm-hmm., our phones, our phones have a series of chips that the, that all this data is being stored on and the forensic tools that we have to. Copy the phone. They're actually doing an extraction of what they can access. Ah, okay. So it's not a spitting image. We're just grabbing really what, you know, what their forensic software engineers we're capable of, you know, writing into their code at that moment in time. Right. But yeah. You know, look at Android. I mean, there's some something ridiculous. It's like 2 million applications and growing. Right, Right. I mean, it's just, it's insane. So the engineers can't write, you know, programs for all those, those, those applications. Um, and there are some that are really
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:secure. So that's where
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:it's important to make sure that you have the original phone then to work.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:It is the absolute best case, John, because if, if, let's say, you know, if I was only able to extract 70% of the applications, then, you know, maybe the driver heard about it, uh, a messaging app or you know, or their son or daughter pushed them into it and then they got to like it, and that wasn't included in the extraction. If that becomes an issue in court down the months down the road, if we have the original phone, we could always go back to it. And if the software hasn't caught up at that time, we could do the old fashioned manual exam, which means I could turn on a video camera and I can do some thumb forensics and we can go through and we. Pull out the good stuff, but maintain the principles of forensic practice at a certain time so we're not destroying anything. Okay. So that
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:this, this is, this is some pretty high tech investigation. So, so answer me this then. Um, should I be worried if, uh, if I'm involved in an incident or something like that and, uh, and if so, uh, what should I do differently or what should I have done differently to.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:If you're the, the bad guy or the good guy,, John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions: Say I'm the driver. Uh, you know, and I'm, I'm involved in a, in an incident or whatever.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Um, how, how about you answer it both ways?
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What would it be? Yeah. If it, you know, if, if I was doing something improper or even if I wasn't doing something improper, what? Not that way. Want drivers? Yeah. I
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:want drivers. Erasing evidence. Yeah. I mean, if they're guilty. You know, just a, a quick story, Jason. I've got an in-cab dash cam, a driver facing dash cam Yes. Operating in my vehicle. And it's not because I'm the world's best driver, it's because I truly believe at the time of the crash I will have nothing to hide. Mm-hmm. Yes. If something happens. Yep. Yes. Go ahead, answer this question about worrisome stuff, . Well, I, I play the role
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:of a third party. I know un unbiased expert. So I, I, I do criminal defense work as much as I do, you know, civil, I'm on both sides all the time. So, the truth, the truth was that you're free. Um, and again, even in the case, You know, a situation where maybe someone does have some guilt, You know what, maybe the degree of, uh, guilt, um, might be, you know, extended beyond what it actually was. So there could even be merits to having, you know, as many data sources as possible to help you own up to what's. And not have it exaggerated and carried into a greater length because honestly, uh, for, for the sides of both parties, you know, that phone is gonna be one of the best sources of data in the investigation. And trust me, anytime there's an accident, the, the first thing anyone's gonna want is that phone. Now, don't get me wrong, there's other sources, right? You're gonna have your black boxes, your gps, you know, depending on, you know, what you're equipped with. As you just mentioned, Chris, um, if you happen to have a dash cam right, these are all extremely valuable sources and we shouldn't underestimate the dash cam either. That could be something you need to pull off and stop recording immediately because, you know, most people have it set to overrate. Right. Probably couple, couple days worth of driving maybe. Yeah. Um, and that's how you're gonna write, write over itself. And if, you know, if we're gonna enter that video evidence into, you know, into the equation, that also has to be handled with digital best practices. So in fact, someone such as myself, I could clone. The memory from that, uh, cam, you know, from the dash cam at the same time is doing the phone. So if that's available, that would absolutely be, you know, recommended. And in this, you know, and, and that just helps keep, it keeps the, the picture perfect. You know, if, if, you know, if, if the driver went from accident, you know, to boss to me or accident and, and straight to myself because, you know, things worked out that well, there's no room for anyone to say, Oh, that was edited. You know, they, they took that home and they met with their brother-in-law who was a, a graphics wiz and, and did this, that no. Now all the evidence went straight to my hand. They had no opportunity to muddle with anything. Mm-hmm., you know, I did an extraction. I, I created an image of the memory from the, the dash cam. It's all, it's all solid. Right? The chain of custody is there, and, and it, it, it speaks to, you know, the, the value of that evidence. So that's the absolute best case. And let me say, you know, if, if someone's, if, if a driver was in the wrong. They, you know, um, and, and don't think this hasn't happened. Um, they decide, you know, they're sweating about that accident overnight, and the next day they decide their phone will meet with a tragic accident. Mmm, that's happened. Um, mm-hmm. and. That hasn't always helped them., of course, everybody's eyebrow raises. Yeah. When something like this happens, um, which isn't always good. Um, but the other thing is people aren't aware of just how much is being stored off. In other places, right, that are retrievable. So those big giant cell towers, they pass every half a kilometer on the highway. Those suckers are recording every milli second. They can. Um, they're gathering all kinds of data. Um, there's a lot of our applications are storing the data on the cloud, right? Mm-hmm. And then, then of course you've got your other sources. So, um, so that's, you're not always in the clear when that iPhone happens to get run over by Wheeler's truck several times. Mm-hmm., um, yeah, that's, that's, that's for sure. So I personally, I think if I was in the wrong. I, I, I'd wanna fess up to it quick, but at least be able to say, I, I did this and this, but I didn't do all that. Right. Yeah. Maybe there's some blame to share, Who knows? But I always believe the truth will set you free and, and that's what I'm good at helping with,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:so. Wow. Just a couple of comments on that. For the drivers never admit fault. Yes. However, um, I, I, and I don't, I don't even know how to describe Joe Fried or Joe. Uh, training. Yep, yep, yep. You know, he's a, uh, an attorney that specializes in mm-hmm. truck crashes, Jason. Mm-hmm.. Right. And he also says that I've never seen a nuclear verdict. Where the company comes in hat in hand and says, We're sorry we messed up. How much do. It's always when they are fighting a losing battle and Joe's good at his job. He makes them lose sometimes when they want to fight. Yep. So understood. What I hear you saying is don't go out there destroying evidence because a lot of it's gonna be recovered anyways. Yeah, yeah. Come back to bite
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:you into he. Yes.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:With people like Jason. Yeah.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah. Last thing you want is somebody coming back bite you in the shamrock. That won't go over well.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:where do you get this stuff, Mr. Far?
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:I, I just, just a figment of my imagination I guess so, yeah. Isn't there shamrock on your cell? I know I got one online.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:I'll throw it back to Jason.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, I was, I was gonna ask you what, what, what kinda mistakes are you seeing drivers make? What, what you know is there, Is there something they could do not do? What would be better to, you know, protect themselves as well as what's on that device other than dropping in a
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:toilet or the bath water? Certainly. Sure. So, I mean, I've, The, the hands free, right? The hands free technology's there. There's no excuse for a driver to have the phone in, in their hand, Right. Unless they're parked with or truck off.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yes, sir. When you're doing your forensics, can you tell if the driver hands free? Yes. Like connected to a Bluetooth
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:device? Yes. I. Okay. So that, Yeah. And, and you know, if, if, if a driver's on a hands free, and that's the way they roll, and you know, they're, I've had cases where drivers have been mid conversation in an accident and. It was absolutely irrelevant to the judge. They had no concern about that whatsoever because they had their hands free on, and, you know, all the other variables as well. The good driving record, they say mono, this, et cetera, et, etc. But you know, there's a lot of variables that could play in, um, a recent one, uh, driver. Um, this, uh, this. Was quite short and she meant she always kept her cell phone in the cab up, up way beyond her reach on the passenger. And she used her hands free, all that checked out, and she was, you know, she couldn't even stand up and reach this thing. She'd have to, you know? Uh, and, and that was very advantageous, I think in, in, in the big picture. Um, and situations like that. I recommended to her. I said, Listen, um, you know, when, when you get your phone back, it wouldn't hurt to just run into your cab and, you know, take a snapshot like that. Mm-hmm., or if you happen to have any selfies or anything else from the past. Which would be even better showing that that's where you keep your phone, you know, that's, you know, all that would be, I think, useful in putting this picture together. You know, if someone goes to the, you know, goes to the, uh, bo of, you know, setting themself up hands free, um, might as well, you know, uh, maximize that, you know, scenario to help protect yourself. But I wouldn't want drivers to freak out because they were, you know, they were on a hands free, you know, call or. Or what have you, or a message when, um, you know, when they got into an accident, that's not the end of the road, for sure, not by a long shot. Um, you know, based, you know, based on my, what I've heard from my colleagues, uh, in my company that, that have done tons of these in the United States and, and even from what I've seen, what really what it really comes down to is the moment of the accident, right? Um, so,
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:okay, so here's, here's, here's another scenario, Jason, and., I, you know what? I'm a driver right now and there's no way you can tell because I wasn't holding the phone. I had it mounted on my dash and I was watching the YouTube video, or I was watching the hockey game streaming it while I was going down the road. So I'm not even talking on the phone. So I don't even know how you think you could tell that I was distracted by any means, cuz I'm busy watching out the window, but I glance over every now and then catch what the scores are and see how, uh, you know how they're doing there. So there's no way.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:So we're basically yes. Going to be able to recover all the activity of what's going on there. So, um, so you, you could rest assured that your, your perusal of the game, um, Will be present, um, in the evidence during an examination? Yeah. That, that, that will be recovered. Now what's a judge and some lawyers gonna make of that? Was he just listening to the game or was he watching the game? Um, did that happen to coincide with, uh, you know, uh, two seconds before the, uh, slap shot that won the, uh,
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah, well, especially the Leafs are playing and it'll be a Stanley Cup championship for sure. There's no doubt
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:about that. So. Well, we, we know there can't be a crash when the Leafs are playing for the Stanley Cup, Right., and I'm a fan like, John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:it'll, it'll all come back. It'll all come back. Um, yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, you know, the Bluetooth head headset thing is a big deal. Um mm-hmm., I certainly wouldn't rely on the old analog. Plug in your, your, your earphones, because one that guarantees you're with a pretty close proximity to that phone mm-hmm.. Mm-hmm., um, which lends itself to touching and swiping, et cetera. Yeah. Um, but yeah, the hands free, and, I mean, with, with, you know, a lot of, you know, even truck cabs, they look at the infotainment. And that that didn't, didn't even make my list earlier of all the, the sources, right? Again, that phone, that phone may meet with disaster, but that infotainment system that is plugged into. Copy up a whole lot of that stuff. Calls, messages, all kinds of content, GPS points, all kinds of good stuff in the infotainment. And we can, Yeah, we do pull out stuff in too, so, um, yeah, it's, there's just so much stuff. But the great thing is, I mean, with, you know, high tech caps, even Mike, when I'm driving around, you know, the infotainment system allows me to safely interact with my. Right. I can turn a little dial while I'm driving and I can change some options. I could, you know, put on an audio podcast or what have you, um, or, you know,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:like trucking risk and insurance. Podcast. Is that what you listen to? Is that what you're saying? 27.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:That's it.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Cool.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Good deal. Good, good.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:My God, you don't have a life dear. Yeah.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Let's check his phone. Let's check his phone for evidence of that. Chris, we need
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:to make sure, Hey, that's right. We know where we know some people. Jason, we're, we're getting close to wrapping this up. I, but I gotta ask you before you, uh Yes. Give up your time. What should employers or carriers, or maybe even another lawyer do immediately following a collision?
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Yeah, so, so, For this, you know, I, I don't mean to kill, kill it with redundancy, but you know, where a driver may not remember this or they may be too shook up to think about it. You know, they should be the ones, uh, as the safety fallback to want to get that digital evidence into the hands of a forensic examiner. Who, who is trained in mobile forensics for sure. Um, and, uh, again, for, for all the same reasons. And you know, typically, honestly, that's, those are usually the people who reach out to me. It's quite often, you know, a safety, you know, a safety manager with a carrier or you know, or their counsel. But that being said, I, I, I would really love, this is why I wanted to come on again. I'd really love for your drivers to know about this, um, themselves, so they can look out for their own best interests. Right, Right. You know, to protect them. Why, Because, or why trust your fate in your future with Yeah. In the hands of anybody else, even if they're on your side. You know, I've had a case. I've had a case where I've had a law firm that's representing, you know, a driver as a defendant, and they, of course, they have the best interests of the, the driver and company, their client at heart. Mm-hmm., but it literally, it literally took them. Four months to get that phone into my hand, and the driver was walking around with that phone every single day. And they're, they're, they're certain, they're in the clear. They're like, they're, they're, you know what I mean? So they're, they're so sure they're in the, And I just breaks my heart. I'm just, you know, how hard can you yell at a set of lawyers that are your client? Right? Yeah. You can't. But you know, I badged them just saying, Listen guys, this is volatile evidence. Yeah. Anything could happen. The guy could lose his phone, you could get stolen. It could, you know, lightning could strike, you know, only takes a few hours for me to do this. Please, let's work this out. You know, someone's on vacation, you know, and
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:all this like, Yeah. And in this case, this is defense material. Exactly. This is, this is gonna end up saying, what are you, what, what are you seeing? Uh, I, I'm just curious in, in, over the last couple of years here, what are you seeing more of? Are you seeing more of, of, of these, uh, forensics investigations going on from a defendable standpoint, or are you seeing it more from the prosecutor's standpoint?
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:So, so it definitely happens from both, both directions and it's, that's pretty much textbook. You know, it's textbook that it, it's going to happen in both directions. Um, we just happen to get called, called, uh, most frequently, uh, from the defense point of view. Um, I think that might, maybe that has a lot to do with how we work closely with insurance carriers, uh, and law firms, um, that are typically doing a lot of defense work. Right, right. Personally, Um, while I am unbiased and I'm gonna write it as I see it, um, I have a, a real passion and a real admiration for our truck drivers. There's a lot, you know, there's a lot that's happened that's given me a lot of, uh, respect, uh, for, for drivers in the industry. And, uh, I will absolutely go outta my way to, um, to help. Express the truth as they possess it. So, um, you know, so yeah, they call me up. I will meet them in the middle, middle of the night in a, on a weekend in a shady parking lot to make that phone swap if I have. Chris Harris, Safety Dawg: the show notes down below. So we're gonna, we're gonna do that. So if I could summarize it with a tip to the truck drivers, cuz that's really what you wanted to say was, As soon as possible. Yes. Turn off your phone by a burner phone. So that way you're capturing the evidence because I honestly believe that well over 90%, and I hope it's much higher, the driver's not at fault. Our, sorry, our truck driver's not at fault. They weren't on the phone. And now it's your role to prove that, right? Hey, the accident happened, but at least we can take the cell phone out of the equation. Yeah. So the sooner the driver turns the phone off, The better for your work and then to go out and buy, I'm an iPhone guy, so to go out and buy, um, uh, a used iPhone. Yeah. May not have all the bells and whistles, but I heard you say you can do this in a few hours. So even if I have to get you the phone, if I'm without my phone, without all the bells and whistles for a couple of days, or. Right in the big scheme of things, what the heck are we doing? And I can pick up a burner phone for a few hundred dollars an old iPhone and still have kind of my life together. Absolutely. No, for sure Chris. That's a, it's a great summary, but I wouldn't even, you know, personally, I wouldn't even burden them with, with, with that, I mean, if they, if they can call me, I'll start making arrangements. I might even, you know, I might even have a line on, on the phone, I can pick up for them, but I will definitely have a loaner. I'll definitely have a loaner that they can take outta my hand and start using immediately.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:I was just gonna, I was just gonna say the inconvenience of that loaner phone is just pitance compared to what it could be. We don't get the proper evidence in place and, and then you've lose that information. Yeah, the one you're talking about, the guy with four months without gathering the information, something happens to the device. That court case could just fall apart because that might be the evidence they're looking for.
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:Absolutely. And the other side will smell weakness. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, that's, that's, that's a, and, and, and listen, Chris, I, I believe your, your guesstimate, 90% of the time you have the drivers are, are in the, in the right and, and, and are, you know, in this, in the safe zone. Um, it's just a matter of how, how well we can, uh, express that. Right. How well the lawyer ultimately can, can demonstrate that. I mean, down in the. If there's even a truck within visual sight of an accident, it's a target. And I literally have had cases where trucks weren't even a part of the accident and they had the phone sent just for that very reason, because there's litigation. Happy. Yeah.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:It's, it's crazy how. Um, the trucking companies get called into it. So you know, for the driver if we can eliminate one little question mark cuz that's what the prosecuting attorney wants is to raise doubt. You know? So if we can get you the phone and you can absolutely prove, then at least that's one piece that we can throw out and say, there's no doubt he was not on his phone or the driver was not on
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:their phone. Right, Exactly. Exactly. You got it,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Jason. I gotta thank you so much for coming on the shoulder. Yeah. Awesome. It was my
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:pleasure guys. My pleasure.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Absolutely. Knowledge bombs and drivers please. Yeah, if the situation arises, reach out to Jason. You should record his number somewhere, uh, so that you can have it because blank. I almost swore, you know what happens out there , the excrement from the cow falls and, and it hits us. Oh yeah. So, you know, record Jason's phone number. Get your safety manager perhaps. Yeah. If you are a driver and you heard this, make sure your safety manager. Uh, has the opportunity to share this podcast with people, other people that might benefit from this. Cause I think this is huge. That you can protect yourself. Take steps. Absolutely. Money well spent. And thanks to Jason Conley, uh, to come on the show and explain it again. And Jason, of course, is from Invista Forensics, uh, a digital specialist in forensics. But you've really been down the cell phones, haven't you? You
Jason Conley, Envista Forensics:bet.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Sorry, Johnny. What was I, I
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:said right here in Ontario. That's where he is located, right here in Ontario, Canada. So a
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:good Canadian A Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know you'll excuse us, John, Jason and I were just having a good time. It was a great interview and I again, wanna thank Jason Connolly from Invista Forensics for taking the time to come on the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast. Share this podcast if you find it a useful and helpful for you, and we appreciate you all so very much. Have a great week. See you next week. John Far and Chris Hiers. We're outta.