In this video, industry expert Mike McCarron discusses the future of Driver Inc and why it's not going away anytime soon. He sheds light on the legal issues, regulations, and labor laws surrounding the topic, providing valuable insights for anyone interested in the trucking industry. McCarron's expertise in the field is unmatched, making this a must-watch for those looking to understand the future of independent contracting in transportation.
Leave us a comment.
Mike's Contact info.
Mike@riteroute.ca
416 931 7212
John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Do you need a "Truck Driver Safety Policy?" Get it today! https://safetydawg.com/policy
Attention, Ontario Trucking Companies. If you are relying on facility insurance, you could be overpaying. Reduce your insurance cost by 10, 000 or more per truck. And good news, we accept drivers with only 1 year of experience. To learn more, just send us text by typing insurance to 365 364 0714.
In this video, industry expert Mike McCarron discusses the future of Driver Inc and why it's not going away anytime soon. He sheds light on the legal issues, regulations, and labor laws surrounding the topic, providing valuable insights for anyone interested in the trucking industry. McCarron's expertise in the field is unmatched, making this a must-watch for those looking to understand the future of independent contracting in transportation.
Leave us a comment.
Mike's Contact info.
Mike@riteroute.ca
416 931 7212
John Farquhar
Summit Risk Solutions: summitrisksolutions.ca
1 226 802-2762
John@summitrisksolutions.ca
Chris Harris
Safety Dawg Inc: safetydawg.com
Chris@SafetyDawg.com
1 905 973 7056
Keeping it Safety Dawg Simple!
#trucksafety #truckinsurance #truckpodcast
Do you need a "Truck Driver Safety Policy?" Get it today! https://safetydawg.com/policy
Attention, Ontario Trucking Companies. If you are relying on facility insurance, you could be overpaying. Reduce your insurance cost by 10, 000 or more per truck. And good news, we accept drivers with only 1 year of experience. To learn more, just send us text by typing insurance to 365 364 0714.
Hello and welcome again to another episode of the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast with your host Chris Harris, and myself, John Farquhar. We've got an a awesome guest, a repeat guest, ah, a handsome and good looking guest. Mike McCarron from Left Lane Associates. And guess what? We're gonna talk about the hot topic that's going on out there in the trucking industry. So
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:let's get into it. Michael, good morning.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:That doesn't look too handsome to me.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Hey, this is the good looking old boys club, Mike.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Now for those of you listening on audio, Michael Shaved, he doesn't match, uh, John and John or I, yeah, yeah. He's the only clean haired, clean face.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:One there he would put in,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Hey, we're talking about Driver Inc. Or. Yeah, we're just talking about Driver Inc. Yeah. And Mike, what the first thing I'd like to know is, why is this such a problem?
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Well, I think it's a problem, Chris, because you know, the government has basically said that these carriers that are not paying source deductions are breaking the law. They continually acknowledge that they're not paying their taxes. They've continually acknowledged that there's not a level playing field. And, but they continue to make promises that they don't follow up on relative to enforcement. So it's a big topic because trucking is a tough enough business alone, let alone trying to compete with someone. And, and this is just not, I see it's got a 20% competitive advantage and a, and a business where you're making pennies in a dollar. So it's a real hot fun, and I, I gotta tell you, if I was a carrier, I'd be on the moon mat as well. I'd probably be doing different things, but I would not be happy and I'd be fighting alongside them.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, 20%. If, Mike, do you have any idea what kind of, uh, profit, and I know this is a probably a terrible question to ask you, but, um, what is the range of profit that trucking companies are making today besides the minus numbers?
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Well, you know, today they're probably not making a lot of money, especially the small and mid-size cares based on the state of affairs. But, you know, I think that top fleets are operating the low nineties operating margin. That's a least measure when I was at Yellow Freight. So, you know, six, 7 cents in a dollar, I know that the, uh, the public companies are trading at, you know, around a six cap. So it's really hard to say. I think the small niche guys probably do a little bit better, but you know, the bottom line, Chris, is the margins are so. Small. And you know, one of the problems with trucking is it takes very little to go wrong. So you take a winter for gas before you lose 15 days to snow, what happens? So it's a very, very fine line of things that you can't control. Mm-hmm.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yeah. No, and if you, as you said, you add a. Your, one of your biggest costs are your driver costs, and if you have a, an advantage of about 20% because you're using the Driver Inc. model, that significantly adds to the bottom line. Mm-hmm.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Well, significantly adds a bottom line. I would suggest they're probably using it. And what I'm seeing in the open market and the spot market, it's not going the bottom line. It's going to the customers. Meaning, you know, you know when. You know, you get someone hauling freight out to Minneapolis for 4,000, the driving cares. Two, if they're smart, they quoting 39, but they're not, no savings, are not, I don't think are going to their bottom line. I believe they're getting past the customers, which is why you have such a spread between the spot market rates and the contract rates. Right now. You know, the, the spot, the driver cares don't, aren't very diligent for surcharges. Their rates are all in. Um, And as I said, I think that this competitor advantage is being, is not going the bottom line. It's it's really being, uh, it's being given the customers.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:So when, all right, so if it, if Driver Inc. And again, maybe I should ask you a question that you probably don't know the answer to. Why in the, if it's such a problem, why hasn't the government moved forward and taken some substantial steps to eradicate it? Well,
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:I, I think that's the million dollar question. So my take, talking to people that are maybe sidetracking is you've got a couple things. You've got, number one, you've got a situation where as much as our billion dollars a year, and that would be the estimated, you know, kind of tax dollars aren't being paid. It's really a drop in the bucket relative to the billions and billions and billions of dollars that go on uncollected. I think, I don't have the exact stats, but there was report from like going back four or five years ago where there, where there's 23, 24, 20 5 billion a year not being collected already. I read summer recently that they believe there's about 27 billion in an eligible code. payments that be paid. So I think you've got a situation where CRA's a mess. They're on strike right now. They're a mess and they're not collecting. I think you've got a situation where I'm not sure Hde is on the, on the, on the politician's agenda. You know, you've got the South Asian vote, which is very much a dry rink, is very much a South Asian, uh, business model. It's very liberal. Uh, you've got a vote, uh, an election coming up in 18 months. My suggestion will probably be a little bit sooner than that. You've got, you know, vote, vote, vote, rich Brampton. You've got quite a, quite a large South Asian lobby. I believe there's about 18 mps. So I just think the government is paying a slip service and they are, they're just, they just don't have the bandwidth to enforce us. It really is. A billion dollars is a lot of money, guys, but it's a drop faster. And I, and I went through it. I lived through it, uh, through a. A situation where I sold the business and, and it really made me realize that it's one thing to say we're gonna shut you down, but then you've gotta go to the CRA court system. It's just gonna take years and years and years. And that's what made me realize that it's time to acknowledge it. This is probably not going away. I'm not saying I agree with it at all. I'm just saying it's probably not due to a lot of factors that are much bigger than the trucking lobby and industry.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Mm-hmm. Uh, I know, I don't agree with the Driver Inc. Model. Um, I mean, all three of us sitting here, we're all self-employed and if you use the Driver Inc model, and if the carrier doesn't issue a T4 a slip, that means the driver gets to have all the same tax deductions that the three of us have who are self-employed. Mm-hmm. Who took a risk, uh Right. Can lose money, can go bankrupt. But, you know, why should they get the same tax advantages that, that we mm-hmm. Have accepted because of a risk.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Mm-hmm. I think a lot of drivers get duped. Uh, cuz it certainly is not good for drivers. There's no benefit. Make less money. They're not protected, but, I certainly know that, and, and, and that culture, self-employment is very important. Um, it's very, very important. And, and that's one of the other challenges, Chris, is this whole gig economy, like this is not just a trucking problem. Every, every single friend I have, he's dealing with the same things. Um, I believe the gig worker is the worker of the future. And, and the bottom line is there's no workers. They're gonna get what they want and. I think the government is gonna have to do something because you can't continue to have this tax leak and, and, and that's bleeding so much debt. And, and I just, I was blown away when I saw the amount of tax dollars that don't collected every year. It's staggering debt. Just, that's old.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yeah. My wife is in the Dental Hy Hygienist world and. Right now dental offices are having a hard time, uh, because as a, um, if you work through an agency as a dental hygienist being self-employed, you can make $50 an hour. Well, that's not what they're being paid in the dental practice. Therefore they don't wanna work directly for a dentist. And I suspect it's somewhat the same here in trucking, that it's part of the gig economy. And it's not just our South Asian friends, it's, it's many. I mean, I use the dental hygiene as an example, and that's a wide. Uh, culture
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:mix. Right, right. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I think I have to be careful South Asian, that's probably trucking, but certainly that's very much an eastern European, basically that the new Canada, so, you know, we talk about South Asians because, you know, they're particularly focused on transportation, but the, the immigration in general, these people that don't want T four s and, and there's so many grounded, I know there's carriers that hide behind agencies. There's carriers, they're doing sort of these. You know, kind of rig the owner operating models there. There's a lot more carriers doing it than you think. And you know, and I think what we're seeing as well is a lot of carriers are saying, you know, they, they believe it's illegal. I think believe it's illegal. They don't wanna cross line, meaning they don't want to start, uh, paying drivers, independent car drivers. So they're just getting out. I just can't with this. I'm, I'm Tireds are getting out proportion. Driver or, uh, independent contractor drivers relative to the rest of the business is just getting larger as from a perception, your point. Yeah.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, let, let, let's, let's dive, dive in here and analyze this just a little bit here. I think, I think we need to let everybody know what we know. Uh, so let's kind of start with a benefit of being in a Driver Inc. Model. Right? So from a driver perspective, one of the things is right off the bat, the motor carrier is not taking source deductions. They're not taking your income tax, whether it be provincial and federal. They're not taking ei uh, employment insurance. They're not taking c p P from you, and therefore at the same time, that means the motor carrier is not providing their share of EI and C P P that need to be topped up. Right. Right. Um, so, so to the driver's perspective, it's like I'm making more money now. Which is, which is to them it's like, Hey, I want that now. I want that now. So is there any other benefits that, other than those, that I just kind of pointed out that would be beneficial and then we'll get into the, the, the, the cons of it here?
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Well, you know, once again, I don't know how beneficial those are because of what's lost. Mm-hmm. So are you weighing those things against workman's compensation? Unemployment benefits, you know, can DPP workman's vacation benefits? Yep. I don't think there is. And once again, I have to be careful. I don't enough to be dangerous. Certainly own benefit through this. And you know, the one thing about benefits, the thing that bothers me probably the most about all this, even the tax situation. Is how much the lack of safety with a lot of these companies that, you know, that's, that's, that's another negative. But I don't know, John, if there actually is any benefits other than benefits to the company because you're, you'll now, during Covid there were so many non-employee fleets started in granted. It tells Mere also paying. They're also paying all their employees in the independent contractors as well.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yep. Yep. Yeah, it's, it's more than just driver. It's, it's, and it's in other, other, uh, industries as well. I've, I've, uh, been informed on by good sources. It's, it's in all kinds of various different industries and whatnot, but you're right that that self-employed model is very important to a lot of these people. The, the unfortunate aspect is they're not realizing what comes with it. And I, and I think one of the real big concerns is we talk about, and we use the, the, the, uh, The acronym C P P and, and, and I wanna make it very clear on this show here what CPP stands for cuz a lot of drivers do not know that CPP stands for the Canada Pension Plant and that's your retirement when you turn 60, 65, 70, you know, and, and the guy with the whitest beard on this, on this view right now is probably either already collecting or gonna be collecting it, but. That's a big thing. If you pay into it, the more you pay into it, the more you get out of it. So if you are not paying into it and your employer is not paying their share, their contribution into it, when it comes time, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to keep working. You know? So th this is why you see these guys that are in their seventies and pushing beyond, still driving truck cuz they never paid into the program and never put money away to invest properly so that they could
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:properly retire. Yeah, I mean, John, I agree with you. CPP is a huge thing that they're missing out on. Mm-hmm. Now, if I was self-employed and putting into RSPs or other investments, I could. Cover that up and, and be in good shape when I retire. The problem is when I had kids, I was living paycheck to paycheck and it would, the whole paycheck would be spent and I didn't have, and when I was in my twenties and thirties, I didn't have money to invest. So yeah, I'm, I'm very thankful. Covid, uh, I mean, CPP got me through Covid, let me tell you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Mm-hmm. Well, you know, it's, it's that catch 22, right? Because. You know, the sad part is even when I was younger and working my butt off, it's like, what? They're taking cpp. What the hell is this for? I, I don't need this. I need the money right now. But now, you know, as in my, in my fifties here now, and I go to the bank and I sit with my, uh, my financial representative and we look at the portfolio and he is going, Hey, your CPPs looking pretty good. You're gonna get a good chunk of change outta that because you paid into it properly, as you should have, you know, and your employers help support that as well. Um, Not all, all of us are smart enough to put away
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:investments. How many people in Canada have paycheck to paycheck? And I was suggested driver. There's drivers that are different, but, uh, I think part problem is they're getting duped. You know, let's call, there's a lot of really good professional driver carers. It's been going on for 15, 20 years. They're not dirt bags. You know, you talk to them and, and they, they, they've found a loophole that the government's. But on the smaller side, there's still a lot of CD shit going on with, with that. Oh God, yes. Immigration scams, uh, fake driving schools. Mm-hmm. You know, training guys, you know, you know what really Absolutely, to me, says it all. I, I think I mentioned to you the last time a buddy of mine runs a, a buddy of mine from Universal Roommate mm-hmm. Runs a pretty large warehouse and they actually have to have hired some. One to shunt trucks into the dock. Cause the Lion haul driver who's driving 2,700 miles load to California can't. Mm-hmm. Now I can't back. There you go. That's why we're not live right there. Can't truck into yard. Mm-hmm. How is he gonna navigate the four? He's gotta drive 2,700 miles. How many situations is he, is he gonna run into or she's gonna rent to? Like driving through kitchen right now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I think the drivers get duped. They get this, uh, they get dangled this dream of sales, employment, you know, you can brag, self employment. And, and I've yet to see one benefit of drivers, but saying a lot of these larger fleets are very professionalized now. Cause they, you know, they've been around for 20 years and they know what they're doing and they're getting. Significant market share. They're getting Fortune 500 companies. Cuz the one thing I've learned is customers don't care how you pay your drivers. And that's the one thing that I think a lot of the legacy carriers we're banking on is that loyal customers would refute using people that were, that had an unfair advantage. That's not the case.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Yeah. Well, and you know what the, the, the aspect of that, um, You know, that glory of boning my own operation, whether it be as a, a single individual, an owner operator, what be is, is great. And I, you know, I've been an entrepreneur for many times. I've, I've worked as a company guy many times as well. But if the biggest thing I can tell anybody is do your research, because right now the trucking industry is probably not the best place to be jumping in as an entrepreneur at this time. You know, as you've mentioned earlier on spot rates, market rates are not where they need to be. The cost of fuels through the roof, insurance is through the roof truck payments. Uh, the price of equipment is through the roof. Now is not the time to be that guy when you do not have any business savvy sense. Learn it. Stay as a driver. Work for a good company and realize how much money you can make. The good companies will show you how to be a good business operator. And not dpe you, as you say, because, cause that
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:is a problem. I, I think the one thing to keep mind drawing though, is that these people are self-employed. They don't have to take the risk. They're, they're not, yeah. Like owner operators. They're not the one paying for trucks. They're not paying, they're doing none of that. They're only risk is. You know, they're risking great job benefits and, and killing themselves or some on the road. Cause they don't have enough training. They're not taking the risk. To your point, we all took a risk. Uh, you know, I took a risk as a kid. I don't know how he did it, but, but you do it and you read the benefits. Yep. You cannot live in this country without contributing to paying for the roads and paying for the infrastructure in the hospitals. And it just drives me nuts. But there just comes a point where you say you at some point in time as industry, we have to. And say, as a trucking entrepreneur, I need to start thinking differently and I need to start doing my business a little bit differently because my suggestion is that it's just not going anywhere. I don't know how they fiscally get shut such a, a 10 headed monster down right now. Mm-hmm. And, and, and you know the thing about it too is that, so think. How important trucking is this economy? Imagine if you could pull 60 thou if you pulled 60,000 drivers. Mm-hmm. Which you could never do, but just, just think if, if the legacy carriers got through utopia. Mm-hmm. Put our comp, you put our country out of business. Mm-hmm. You will lose all your competitiveness. So, you know, all these things are just pain to a lot of lips. First, every single, you know, this shameless Reagan and my buddy, uh, you know, he comes up this big announcement, babababababa, you'll be in the budget. Budget comes nothing. Mm-hmm.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Yeah. And the other part of this whole thing is it's not just a Canadian problem, it's no, you know, the US is fighting the same thing or a similar.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Prop five in, in, uh, in California. In fact, it's interesting, I talked to a friend of mine in California, and you know what a lot of these driving drivers are doing to complicate things is they're, they're working a, a couple Uber gigs and, and, and, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're doing other gig economy jobs. To create other sources of income, just to, once again, just another complication for CRA and, and to tie this thing up if they ever do, if they ever do decide to enforcement. Right,
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:right. And really I'm leaning with you, Mike, that. They don't have the stomach to enforce it. Um, you know, back 30 years ago when I was with t and t, our owner operators paid most of their drivers, uh, what we would say cash. I mean, I know it, it wasn't cash, it was a check, but it was going to their personal name. They didn't know the sin number of that driver. Therefore, it was never getting declared, and that was 30 or 40 years ago. This was going on in trucking and it was very predominant. Then it's changed from that to the Driver Inc. Model. But it's, it's a 40, 50 year old problem that the government has never, uh, decided was important enough. And it's not just trucking, as you said. I mean, carpenters and, and all kinds of people. I mentioned dental. It seems like everybody wants the gig economy. Everybody wants to be self-employed.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Hmm. It's our immigration, these, you know, these, whatever country they're coming from, they kind of, they're chasing this dream, this Canadian dream. And that starts with self-employment without the risk, but also without the benefits. So I feel bad to Workers Summit, but to your point, Chris and John kind of the horse of the bar now, and I think if you really read it leans closely, you'll realize that. Yeah, I, I, I encourage the legacy curves to try and level a playing field. I just wish a government would get off their ass. Mm-hmm. And they would either, either enforce or say, go do it, because I know if I own a trucking company, I'd be doing it all day. There's no way. So,
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:so, so that brings up the perfect, the perfect segue that I wanted to bring up was, well, if we can't beat 'em, what do we do to
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:join them? Well, I, I, I think it's, you know, there comes a point where you say, either I have to join 'em or have to get out because I would suggest once again, you're gonna have trouble filling your trucks, the seats, your truck if you don't do this. So, there's several things that can be done. First of all, the, the, the penalties itself look at the fine that shameless announced. Regardless of the size of your trucking company. So if you're a 4,000 fleet operator and they're out there or one truck, you get the same line. So that's problem number one. Number two, with the enforcement, you talked about what we do at a 250,000 fine. Do the math on, say, a truck doing $200,000 in revenue a year. Mm-hmm. So based on the 20, that means you're saving 40 grand. Mm-hmm. So what. Doing it, you can't lose. Yeah. Yeah. So, yep. There's an opportunity to, you know, but there's an opportunity to buy. Yep. Drive fleet and keep it separate. We've got people doing that. Yep. The one thing that, the one thing that I find probably the most ironic about ole this, and it really is ironic, maybe a bit of hypocrisy frankly, is that all these carriers trying to shut down drive ink. Are absolutely making a fortunes on the back of drive ink in their freight brokers divisions.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Mm-hmm. No, BigTime. Huge,
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:huge. Every single carrier, and I'm not gonna any names, I'm talking hundred million like you're talking the biggest brokers in this country. Yep. The biggest brokers bar, a couple are, are divisions of top 100 carriers. Yep. Yep. I agree. Only non-driver. You cannot make money in brokerage without using driver cares. We all use 'em. And the ironic part about it's, they've actually made a lot of money in enterprise value because they're growing a non-asset segment. So you can see what you want, but there's no, this has served to large fleets, but the smart ones have also benefited from it.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Oh God. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I can share something. Uh, I, I won't say where I got it from, but I got it on good authority. So you talk about the $250,000 fine. The unfortunate aspect that is only in the worst case scenario, and that will only be after it goes to court. I have been informed by the enforcers that. There will be no fine in the beginning. If they come in, find out you're doing a a, a Driver Inc program. What they're gonna do is they're gonna lay you, um, some citations, non non-monetary citations to say, you need to stop and this is what you need to do. And if they come back in 30 days and you're still doing it, well, then they will lay a citation of $10,000 and they'll give you a court date. And then we'll go to court and we'll start to play around. And it's only then if you continue to not do anything about it, that you could see the $250,000 fine. So as you say, Mike, right off the bat, it's like even for a small carrier, it's like, okay, I've been given the warning shot. I need to change, maybe I'll change. But for the big guy it's like, yeah, big deal, $250,000. You know, it cost me more than that to support the C P P E I program in the W S I P. So it's, it's of no sense to me. It's cheaper
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:to pay the fine. It's, and, and my point too is, so look at my situation. So I had a tax situation, a seven figure tax problem based on signing a form incorrectly. No interpretation, no benefit from me. It was a no-brainer. 11 years and three or four court cases. So, you know the problem you're gonna have, they're all numbered companies. Mm-hmm. Shut down one fleet. Do you think these guys, these, these, these drivers, sorry, I shouldn't say guys. Uh, the, the, the men and women drive the trucks are suddenly gonna run out and get a regular job on the pace t4? No. They're gonna work on fleet and by the time we shut Fleet down 25, we're gonna start because you can pretty much. Uh, works an assumption that no one is starting a trucking company today in this country that's paying source deductions, period.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, and, and there's a lot of companies out there. Um, you know, I've had, I've had the, well you call it, privilege, I guess, to see these operations and whatnot, and they're, they're operating totally legally. Where they have multiple numbered companies because, you know, their, their operating authority is under one company. The equipment is under another, uh, company, and then they, they lease it too. And, and we have legacy carriers that do the same thing, right? It's a legal tax program. It, it's for proper deductions and, and all that to manage your risk. Because the last thing you wanna have happen is, you know, one company takes everything down so you break it up in pieces. Well, a lot of guys have companies that do nothing but the payroll. It's good, you know, so it's like I'm leasing my, my drivers to this company to operate. So we pay that company and then all the drivers are paid through that. You shut down that company. It's like you said, no problem. I'll just start another one. Put all the drivers under that one.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Well, there's no liability. They have. It's just, as I said, it's just like, I think a lot of this is the ineptitude of cra. I think a lot of it is the fact that we are just a drop in the bucket relative to tax arrears, but I really think that they need this to, for immigration cuz they'll go to other countries. I think that ultimately you need immigra. You know, we're short workers today. Imagine pulling the economy workers out. It would be impossible. You shut down the, it's all these realities and, and I, once again, it's, it's so important to understand that. I don't agree with this, but there comes a point where you read the tea, you have to say, It's just, it's not, it, it logistically cannot go away. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Now, Michael, as we get to the point where we gotta wrap this up, how about I ask you a real direct question. You've already answered this one, but a real direct question, uh, to end this interview is Driver Inc. Going away today.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:No, absolutely not. Is it gonna go? Yes. Is it going away someday? No. Am I not saying that the odd 250,005 might not be issued? Am I not saying there'll be some sort of, you know, appearance of enforcement, but nothing that I look at. Nothing that there's a lot of talk amongst the legacy peers. Nothing they see. And you'd be amazed at how many carers are quietly, quietly, uh, already have independent contractor programs, uh, at their fleet because it's the only way they can fill the seats. It's just a matter now of. Do I get out or do I conform? Mm-hmm.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Well, and, and the one thought I hadn't thought of that you'd mentioned was the, uh, carriers who all have broker divisions, and of course the broker divisions are all using Driver Inc. You know, even if the, the carrier themself is not mm-hmm.
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:Said they, they're, no, it's, it's like you cannot literally, I, I, I'm not like John, I'm not gonna mention cares. We, you know, we've got, we've got a care friend of ours from out west. He's basically, he was a real, uh, real anti-d dry rink guy. Mm-hmm. The broker's business. He's, it's, it's incredible what he's built, but it's gotta be done and, and see. So, you know, you've got the situation. It's evolving. Where the other thing that's really evolving is third parties, because they're the ones who use the broker. So it, it, it's. The driver care. They might not be prominent allowing these small guys with customers, but, but they are prom with brokers. So to your point, Chris, it's just, there's just too many things pointing to something that I just logical don't see ever being shut out. Mm-hmm.
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:Well, I was gonna say with the volume of, of driver's issues, as you said, you know, out there that are in the drive rank model, there's no way that a logistics operation could not work without them. You just wouldn't find enough regular carriers or legacy carriers that could handle the
Mike McCarron, Left Lane Associates:freight Well, the rates are divide and you know, the, the challenge too is that, see, see what's happened in this, in this market is that, so two things are driving the spot market. One of course is, uh, driving fleets that will run for cheaper. But the other thing is they also don't have a 90% fuel surcharge on there. And so that's really, that old school fuel surcharge system has really, I think, betting a lot of carriers hard because it's, it's, it's made for, in the last year the greatest great disparity ever. Uh, between whatever call spot marketing contract rates. I know what I owned MSF. As a broker you could never compete a large carrier direct. Well, guess what? You can today. Cause you have in some lanes a difference of 80, 90% and that lot of that's just, just, uh, in fuel surcharge. Cuz driver carriers don't charge fuel surcharge. It's all rated flavor. Today I want vanilla. Today I want chocolate today. It's a different rate every day. But if you can learn to manja, they, they can't truck. Yeah, and
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:that's a great spot to, uh, it up. Mr. Mike McCarran from Left Lane Associates, longtime industry veteran, although you're younger than us, Mike. Uh, when I say, ah, you still, I got many years on you, Mike, but it
John Farquhar, Summit Risk Solutions:is. I'm just under you. I'm just under you.
Chris Harris, Safety Dawg:Thanks Mike, for coming on. You are always invited. Thank you once again and we were talking about Driver Inc this week. Thanks, Mike.