Hey, it's Chris Harris Safety Dawg here. I another of the Dawg On It Trucking Pawedcast my guest this week. I am excited to have mr. Jim Park. Let's bring Jim in and say hi, good day. Jim how are ya? Good day. Jim I am I supposed to say a good day? Chris right. You told me to tell you a good day. Jim so I did I just following orders. Hi. Chris that's good to see you, man. Perfect. A Jim how are you? Excellent. Another day, older and deeper in debt. You know, it just living in the dream, as they say, Hey, are you Going to get all the cliches in there? Sorry. What was that? Did they get all of the cliches in there? Yeah, it just about a, for our listeners, viewers. Jim can you give us a bit of a background because I know where I first met you. It was about 97 are, sorry, it didn't meet you. I heard you back in 97, but you started in Trucking long before that. I believe. Well, yeah, I started driving in 78. I was working for pioneer pools. Actually. You probably are familiar with them in Oakville. I was a, a helper on a delivery truck, basically slugging pools all summer long, and then one trip, the driver and broke his arm and couldn't, he fell off the truck. Couldn't get back. So I drove the truck back. It was an old GMC gas job without an analysis and automatic transmission, a great long deck, 26 foot deck, but I drove it back and didn't break anything. And the boss said, walking in to go do it again tomorrow with it. And I said, well, you don't have a license for it yet. And he says, don't worry about it. You know, back in those days, didn't really matter if it was kind of optional. So I worked for the rest of the summer, I guess, maybe five weeks on the truck, and then went back to college that summer, that fall coming up on the next summer, I decided to go out and get in my class D and, and, you know, try to make a living as a student, driving a truck. Anyway, that turned into Uhh. I got bored with school and decided to take up Trucking instead. So I started working for a bunch of delivery services, Driver services around the city of Toronto, and I spent a year or so doing that. Then I wound up at Lumsden brothers and grocery distribution outfit in Burlington. I went to work there because they actually had our model max straight trucks at the time. And when I was working for those Driver services, I was driving an old Dodge's and GMC's and the international Lodestars and, Oh my God, just a litany of junk, you know, which is what you always get when you're at a low guy on the totem pole as a Driver service, while you drive that one, once it goes to the doors, don't worry about it. It tightened a seatbelt up. That's the way it was back then. Right? So anyway, I went over to the lumps deans and they hired me surprise, surprise. And a year later I got my class license there. I'm probably not the, you know, the model example of mandatory entry-level training, because I learned how to drive tractor trailers over, I guess, eight success of Fridays. I'd get my hours in by Thursday. I said to the boss, can I go out and ride with the tractor trailer guys in Friday? And they said, sure. Uhh so they didn't mind having me. They could sleep all day. I did all the work, all the driving, and they just said, Park be careful, you know, don't break anything and go knock that over. Don't go so fast. Anyway, that was my, my entry level training, but I got my license on the first try. And within a year I was working for liquid cargo lines. Uhh on tanks. How I've made that jump I'm I'm not sure, but I really spent pretty much the rest of my driving career on tanks right up until Uhh was in 97, I guess I gave it up 98 Yeah somewhere and I was working for an air products and the end, but that was my last, my last paid gig as a driver. Yeah. What I heard you on the radio is where I first got the Jim Park name. That was an interesting story. I've Uhh I was, I was a, one of the first, well, the first team of Ontario trucking association road, night's in 95, 96, and that sort of attracted a bit of media attention and a Brenda yarrow who you may recall was the editor of Truck news at the time, went off on our own and started a little magazine called RPM candidate. It was a Recruiting magazine, and somehow she figured out that I could ride or had, you know, put a sentence together. And she asked me if I would write an article or something For for ARPM. And I said, yeah, OK, I'll try it. And she said, well, I was pretty good. Can you write another one? So that turned into a sort of a part-time gig that I can supplement my income and it didn't need to, I was making a pretty good money at our products, but, you know, cranking out a couple of stories a month for her. And I started getting the, this notion of in my head that maybe there was a career beyond driving. And if I really apply myself and, and learn grammar and how to type in all of these things that writers need to be able to do, maybe I could get out of the Truck and start writing a full time. And she was amenable to the idea, but she couldn't pay me enough to, you know, just stop driving one day and start writing the next. So your product's was kind enough to let me scale down from two to three or four days a week or two. So basically we are going from 60 to about 30 hours or so give or take that was enough with what Brenda was paying me to. Right. And one night, and I was working for all our products and driving around in Southern Ontario. And I tend to not to listen to a am radio at the, I'm not sure why I did, but anyway, I happened to tune in a 20 CHAM one night, the country station that was in Hamilton, right? The comedies station. Now I think so anyway, low and behold, I had this thing called the all night roadshow for truckers. And they had, you know, Trucking Recruiting ad's and, and all that stuff and country music, but there was absolutely no Trucking content. The, the, the, the DJ who was doing it, John Marshall, great guy, and a professional radio guy to the end, he was working up in a Walkerton now I think on a bluegrass station, he didn't know anything about Trucking. So he really couldn't bring a lot of Trucking content to the show. So I don't know why I phoned the station. And I said to the station manager and fellow named Chris, I said, you'll you got, this show is a great show for truck. Driver's the only road show. He even got a good name for it, but you hadn't got any Trucking content. And you know, how can we bring this up a little bit and try to make it more Truckee? And he says, well, what do you know about Trucking? I said, well, you know, quite a bit, I've been doing it for a bunch of years, blah, blah, blah. He says, do you know anything about radio? And I said, well, as a matter of fact, I do. And I was in high school. I used to run the high school radio station, which is really just a big stereo that we've put speakers all over to the cafeteria and played loud music at lunch hour. Anyway, he said, well, come on in tomorrow night at midnight. Now I'll introduce you to John and you can give it a shot. So I did it. No, it was interesting. You talk about timing. That was just about the time there was a bunch of protests going on and Uhh drivers were blocking the, the Quebec Ontario border. And it was a big fraction, you know, it was in the news and people we're getting all excited and we're on the air this one night, I guess it was the second night I was in there with John. And we heard on the news that this protest was going on. Or if somebody called in, I guess, and said, you know, Hey, why don't you talk about the protests going on down at the border? So I said, okay, well, I'll phone the truck stop. So I called realz, they were still open at the time and they got to manager and I said, no, we're on the radio here. And Hamilton blah-blah-blah, can you tell me what's going on? So it had this like a 30 minute radio thing happening. And John Marshall that the disc jockey, it was just, how do you do that? How do you know all of these people? What are, you know, and meanwhile, the station manager, it was listening to him at home, blew him away. He says, well, you go to a job. If you're hired, I ended up doing a weekend's and John kept that Monday to Friday shift. And John, eventually we moved to afternoons and Uhh, I picked up a night shift for a while. So as I was ramping down, air products, ramping up the writing with Brenda, and it had the radio on the middle of which kind of did, you know, supplemented the income nicely. And I was doing all right. And then along came highway star in 99, July of 99. And they said, well, you know, we don't want anything to do with radio. So you'll have to make a career decision to here. Do you want to come work for a highway star or, or do you want to be on the radio? A pretty easy decision to make, you know, radio is fun. I love it. It's just a great way to, you know, spend a few hours, but the pain is terrible. And if the station manager decides they don't like you, where they changed formats, like CHAM did, they are all recorded comedy. Now I probably be working in a Regina and Saskatoon somewhere, which wouldn't be so bad, but I would probably not be a loving there as much as I am love in the writing. So that was a long story. Sorry about that. Getting up all your time with me here. That's awesome. Because as I say, the first time I ever heard of you was on CHAM and I don't even know how, because you know, as much as I drove Truck, I never listened to Truck Driver radio stations or anything, but somehow I found you on CHAM. I remember that. And then I think probably the first time we ever talked to each other, what I imagined was that the Fergus Truck show where highway, highway star was there, an old Republic would be there or T and T if I was with T and T, I probably met you through that, you know, like, but it was it when you were working for highway Starr is when I first actually shook your hand. Well, I think you were handing out free copies of the Rand McNally truckers wrote. I was probably, I'm always one for swag. So somebody say, Oh yeah, they got 'em over there in old Republic. So I wondered down and grabbed one. And there you were. I think that was the first time we met. It probably was. And that's that's a lot of years ago, because that was my first year where the old Republic was 2011. You didn't look like Santa Claus back then. No, I probably had hair and We all do that was a long time ago. But see that that's really interesting that you started off as a truck driver. You became, I'm a writer, a radio DJ. Then you got working for highway star full time. And now you have your own podcast. Yeah, actually I was doing podcasting when I was with highway star. This was back before podcasting was cool. I had a podcast called the Truck talk back in I'm thinking of two, two thousand six hundred thousand seven. And we did probably 40 episodes and advertisers weren't knocking on the door. So highway star decided to cancel it. But yeah, that was my first kick at the cat. And we started this new one. Now its with heavy duty Trucking of the U S publication than the podcast is called H D T talks Trucking and you can find it on, you know, in the usual podcast hosting channels like Stitcher, an Apple and Spotify, or you can go to the website, a Trucking info.com and there's a Podcast banner up at the top of the page. The only problem with that is the, for some crazy reason, STAC the podcast in reverse. So when you first go to the page, click on podcast, the first podcast that we ever did comes up first rather than the newest one. So if you want to hear the latest podcast, you have to go all the way to the bottom of the list. Uhh there's about 40 some podcasts. There are now, but posted their most recent one this morning. It was an interview with Ben Niland. He's the president and CEO of the loop energy. There are a hydrogen fuel cell engine company based in Burnaby, British Columbia. And they were one of the time they're going to be one of the, I think serious players in North America for hydrogen fuel cell trucks. There are already big in Europe and Asia, China, and they've got a pilot project underway here and now in a, in a way in the ports that Los Angeles and long beach sort of a venture with Peterbuilt, they've taken that E M E five 79 and built it into a range of extent or models for the hydrogen fuel cell actually powers the battery, which powers the Truck. Anyways, long story short, a you can catch that podcast on a Trucking info.com or Apple podcast is called H D T talks. Trucking Thanks for you to plug And I'll make sure that there's a link in the show notes below. So the, the people don't have to stretch too far, you know, let's, let's make it easy, but that brings us to our topic today. You know, when we're shooting emails back and forth, it's what's of interest to you and we've got a lot of similar interests. I just picked up a Tesla less than two weeks ago. So I'm now driving a Tesla and it's the autonomous features in the base model are mind blowing to me moving from the car that I have. How do you think these new technologies that are coming out of autonomous drive and especially how are they going to be rolled into a heavy trucks? Well, I'll tell you, I I've got some concerns about what they call level to autonomy, which is what the Tesla is. It's supposedly driver assistance technology, right? You're not supposed to go to sleep in your Tesla. That's correct. Uhh people do that. People do all kinds of crazy things and Teslas, but now there's a couple of truck manufacturers Daimler in particular, who's come up with a level two system, they call it a Detroit assurance 5.0 and it does have level two autonomy to some degree where you can take your hands off the wheel for 30 seconds or so everybody knows the hack on how to let go of the wheel and leave it. I mean, and that's no secret. So I'm worried and is going to happen that some Driver will go, Oh, well this just like pretty close to the autonomous. I can get it out of the seat and go to the, back to the fridge and put a sandwich, the microwave, or brew a pot of coffee and then come back and sit down again. That's probably not a really good idea because the technology is really not up to the level four capability that it needs to be. But because the technology is their driver's will experiment with it and it will probably not end well, at least once or twice. Yeah. Let me just say my car is just not even two weeks old. And this morning when I was driving a coming home from a customer out near Branford, actually going around a curve, there was a tractor trailer coming at me. It was a bend to my left and all of a sudden the car hit the brakes. 'cause it thought that the tractor trailer was coming at me and then right at you. Yeah. And so, you know, I was wide awake before that incident. I certainly was wide awake afterwards because I'm worried it was a guy. Well, it really, I was worried about the car behind me. What were they going to do? Because this car was braking for no apparent reason. And so, I mean, the technology's really cool and its happening in its here, but it's far from perfect. So when Daimler first premiered this technology, they had an event down in Miami or Palm beach, West Palm beach or wherever Trump lifts Uhh and they have four or five of these trucks set up and a bunch of journalists going to go out and drive them. Of course I've still got my CDL. So I, you know, took the wheel in the particular Truck I have wasn't behaving properly and it kept pulling to the right now if I was holding the wheel, it was fine. Everything was working as it should. But if I let go of the wheel, which was what this technology was supposed to be able to do, the truck would move to the left all the time. And the guy in the Truck of Daimler a guy on board and he couldn't figure out why. And I was there with video cameras and making a video that we do at today's Trucking and you know, writing a test, drive story and Daimler. She said, you know, we really be happy if you didn't write this story. I said, well, I understand, you know, this is a test truck, it's an engineering, you know, pre-production model yada yada. So my understand things sometimes don't work. So let's a redo. The event will schedule another test drive so that they did. We flew me out to Portland and a half. We took off down in interstate five with one of the engineers and it worked much better. Uhh on that, the escapade, but the, we found that the steering wasn't able to always maintain the arc of the curve. Now interstate five in the Portland area has got a 55 mile, an hour speed limit. And some of the curves are a little bit tight, not unnervingly tight, but a little bit too for Uhh, you know what Daimler had programmed into it. And on several occasions, this is the system is simply disengaged mid-way through the curve, which has a little unnerving Uhh. And you know, the exact example I gave earlier about the guy in the, going back to the microwave to warm up as much, if that was happening while the Truck decided to a hand the control back to the driver, you know, things wouldn't end well, the bad outcome, but it's, you know, you know, now we're at now we're messing around with full level four autonomy with no drivers. That's still at least 10 years out realistically, but still, I mean the technology is there. It's working a truck's or logging thousands of miles every day with Safety drivers sitting in the seats who are basically their, to make sure that the truck doesn't do anything stupid and as a last line of defense against some sort of failure, but certainly it is working well enough in that I would expect they've got those tight radius curve challenges sorted out, but there's probably millions of other challenges they have yet to work out a like the Tesla example you gave with the tractor trailer coming at you on a two lane road to a sensor, saw it approaching at a high rate of speed in that this doesn't add up let's bail. Well, it's a, it's a really neat driving experience, but for a tractor trailer, of course, any mistakes are that much more dramatic because of the size of the weight. Yeah. It's just interesting. I wonder how, you know, speaking to that Uhh I saw that last week, two weeks ago, Freightliner, I believe it was signed to deal with Waymo. One of the other autonomous providers and there's locomotion or locomotive is another, sorry, local, local nation and there's other providers besides it. So that's two others besides Tesla. And I know there's more that I don't know about who else is out there in the autonomous driving space that you can think of. Well, and I may miss a name or too, but there are 10 that I count now that are significant enough players. We have, I guess now I'm going to miss a couple, two simple Waymo plus AI. Now Starsky is gone. They went out, Hey wait, let me know when you get all of your hair falls out. And so one of your memory, a big hit me for a while is that when you see up on top of it, I know it's a little bit, let me go up there anyway, there's nine or 10 of them are out there now and probably several more weighting in the wings. Investor's just can't throw money at this technology fast enough. So that concerns me and the DOTD is really not putting any checks and balances in place. If you want to go out to your car or your truck and, and bolt on a bunch of cameras and some steering control systems and call yourself a, a, a robotic Truck start up have at her, you can do it. There is no restriction Interested in the air from CSA. Again, just recently asked for comments on autonomous driving. Yes. So there are, they too are looking at it. I'm quite excited about it. Although I really hope, and I believe that we are going to have the drivers behind the steering wheel for God, a long, long time. You know, I'm thinking 20 years, at least I'm hoping 20 years. Not that I'll be driving then, but you know what I mean for these young people, cars driving was always a good job for me. Or do you have an opinion about how long a driver might still be required behind the wheel for a long, long time yet It's not going to be a, an all or nothing deal with autonomous driving. The autonomous trucks eventually will go driverless. And I figured the horizon on that is it will, it'll be a fairly common within 10 years, probably seven to eight before we start seeing it in significant quantities. But even in 10 years' the companies that are going to be doing it are the big, long haul giants. You know, the Amazon's, the ups is a JB hunt Schneiders and that will be running specific lanes around the country. You know, the West coast, a few U S Southwest LA to Texas. Uhh probably eventually work on your way out a little bit further East, but it it'll be along that <inaudible> corridor for the foreseeable future and its going to be a drive and a distribution center, the distribution center, they're not going to be driving up people's driveways and backing down alleyways to deliver freight. You know, that's still going to be in the hands of drivers. So if you think of it in terms of intermodal, for every intermodal trader that moves back and forth across the country on a train, there is a driver at either end, you know, picking up and delivering. Plus we've got the livestock, the tanker business' the flat bedside refrigerated, anything specialized where you may be picking up at a customer and delivering direct door to door to another customer. The the autonomous trucks won't be doing that at least for probably 20 years. So anybody who's got designs on a driving career today is going to be, I think gainfully employed at least up until 2030, probably 2040 in 2050 a there may not be as many jobs. I mean, any number of things can happen between now and then, but if you really, if you look at the challenges that we're having now hiring drivers, the, the biggest challenge he's in the long haul sector, especially in the U S you know, Canadians, I think we're more used to that, you know, three day out for a day out routine, which is manageable, you know, leave on Sunday night. And if you come back a Friday afternoon home for the weekend, back out, again, both sorts of things or, you know, a triangle, you know, Toronto East coast back to Toronto, your home may be twice a week or once a week. That's manageable in the U S those poor devils spend weeks out on the road. And those are the jobs that they're having a hard time seeding. So if a lot of that can be diverted to an autonomous truck, I don't think it's going to make a big difference to the, the Driver population and to the number of jobs that are still available to drivers. Those are the jobs that a driver's don't want anyway. Well that, and I just really believe that the amount of freight as we continue to grow and grow, it was just going to keep going up. So it might reduce the amount of drivers required to move that freight, but there are still going to be just a ton of driving jobs and is still going to be a great career for a long time yet, You know, I believe it will. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, look at us two old farts. Well, I mean, somehow we are still in Trucking, even though I don't drive the truck, I haven't driven one now for, I guess only a year. I drove a truck around the block about a year ago, but you know, I too have my CDL or in my class, I still have my license. They are in my pocket. But being 65. I've got to go to start going for an annual medical Now. So I'm not sure For how much longer am I going to have my AEs out of my pocket? Indeed. Yeah. What would be 62 in December? So I got maybe three years left before I have to start thinking seriously about it. I haven't turned to a revenue mile and actually a couple of summers ago, I worked for a friend of mine for a couple of weeks' over the summer of all, he was taken some vacation jumping in his truck and then back and forth to be in Toronto and Montreal a few times. But the only driving I do now are on these test drives, but I do for the magazine, which is fun. And obviously you get to drive all this fancy new stuff, but it's only for a few hours at a time and usually under relatively controlled conditions. And I don't have to deal with shippers in DLT and all of the other fun stuff in that. And the name of that magazine again, his Heavy duty Trucking H D and today's Trucking as well. I mean, I've, I've worked in a day on both sides of board or to magazines. I was scaled back a little bit on Trucking, but you can still find me between those pages and on that website as well. Right. So that's, atonomous Trucking what about fuel? What are you hearing about diesel fuel or is it going to be around, you know, I hear people saying it's gone tomorrow. Well, if you listen to the activists, yeah, it would be gone tomorrow. It's not realistic and it's not going to happen. And to me, that poses a real challenge because, you know, you talk to people, your neighbors, your friends who don't understand Trucking when they hear the environment minister or someone stand up and say, yeah, we are going to make diesel going away. And 20 years' it ain't going to happen, but it, it sets up false expectations. Why do you tell people that battery technology is not going to develop to the point where you can run trucks, you know, any more than three or 400 miles at a time, maybe five, but even that's a stretch. And then it's going to take 24 hours to charge them up or 10 hours to charge him up. So there's really not much of a future. I don't think for a long haul electric trucks, there is a future for alternative fuel technologies, like hydrogen fuel cells who can run, you know, a thousand miles on a single hydrogen Philip, which incidentally takes about 20 minutes, which has not much longer than it takes to fill up a Truck really a diesel truck. Uhh, there's all kinds of challenges with hydrogen fueling infrastructure costs of the stuff, or the cost of the trucks. It's a dramatically higher than a diesel truck costs. But if, you know, we keep moving in that direction where we are trying to, if not completely eliminate, which that isn't likely or a realistic, but reduce the amount of diesel trucks that are out there, you know, creating the Uhh, you know, the, the greenhouse gases that were all trying so hard to, you know, to eliminate or reduce you take a a hundred diesel trucks off the road and replace them with a, a, a hundred renewable natural gas powered trucks or hydrogen powered trucks. That's a step in the right direction, but diesel is not going away. Anytime soon experts are saying 20 or 50 years still left in diesel fuel. So, well, I don't know, but you know what? My experience so far with electric trucks and we're talking in an electric powertrain, nevermind how you create the electricity, whether it's hydrogen or natural gas or battery electric trucks are a dream to drive torque. Ah, my God, you know, Tesla talks about zero to 60 in five seconds. While you will be able to keep tires on a truck like that, they're going to have to dial a torque down a bit, but a performance it's amazing. And then of course he has completely quiet. There is no vibration what it does happen. Of course, you, as you can hear all the rattles and squeaks in the cab than you otherwise, couldn't here with the diesel roaring a way down there, but driving an electric truck is it's a fantastic expense. And then I'll tell you, it's the tussle of that. I've got his, the quickest thing I've ever driven. And I mean, it makes it a lot of fun. Although part of the reason I bought it was to be a little more environmentally friendly and here I am booting it and using more electricity, which is, I mean, here in Southern Ontario, of course my electricity comes from Niagara falls, but not all of the electricity has all of that green. There is still a lot. It's still not great for the environment, no matter what we do. But at any rate, if you know Jim, just to be sorry, did you have something you wanted to contribute to that? So I was going to say, have you found the, a ludicrous power setting on the Tesla yet And go that far? Okay that costs, you know, I, I bought a, it was actually the one called that ludicrous. Yeah. It's on the monitor last time. I think we can get it on a model X, but I didn't go with that. Hi I I went into a its called the model Y so the model three is the small little one. The model, Y is just a little bit bigger than that. It's interesting. And I wouldn't get into it now, but off air, I'll tell you about the tax credit for us Canadians for purchasing electric vehicles from the federal government. So I'll get more into that, but it's an interesting, if any of our listeners are interested, send me a quick email. It has to be a corporate purchase. So, but anyways, the what else did you want to cover? Because we're here at about 30 minutes in already. What else did you want to say? Well, you know, talking about this future technology and the autonomous trucks and everything else, people ask me a lot, you know, it's just, just driving. Is there a future to becoming a driver driving schools that are asking the question? Yep. You know, how long am I going to be in business? If there's no more need for drivers in a no more driver's to train, I might as well put it in my tent and go home. But the more we hear about this autonomous technology, again from uninformed commentators who believe that this is around the corner, people who are maybe considering becoming a driver today here, that kind of a commentary thing. Oh, well the autonomous trucks are taking over next year. Why would I bother going to train to be a truck driver? All I can say is don't worry about it. If you to be a driver. And I know you're a rare bunch, please don't go away. We need you Uhh go to school. Uhh learn properly. Take a good training course. And a you've got a good future ahead of you. I mean, quite honestly, the technology is going on in a pack a lot more than just Trucking there's AI, that's coming around the corner and there's all kinds of world applications for robotics coming that are just around the corner, just as atonomous vehicles are what I say it just around the corner. But I really mean 20 to 30 years down, who can project the way the world is changing, what career to choose today, other than one that you are going to enjoy. Yeah. If you're doing enjoy what you do, you know, you know, you got that much behind you or in front of you, right from the beginning. But you know, there's even artificial intelligence. That's writing now creating magazine articles and letters, formulating stories the way or a writer would I've. You know, I can tell when I read one that it's a created artificially, but you know, was there any guarantee that we are going to need writers, certainly philosophers and thinkers in all sorts of people, but I don't, no. I mean you to go to the store, you buy a fridge. Now its got a barcode reader in it. Take out a quarter milk, pour yourself a glass of milk for the next day or a truck shows up at your door because the barcode reader determined that you were out of milk and automatically ordered you a new, you don't even have to go to the Avon Dale anymore or the truck shows up with it. So I don't know. We're all going to get pretty fat and lazy I think, unless we have to keep on looking after ourselves. Yeah. And that's the truth. So Jim, just to wrap this up, where can people find out more about you? What are the magazines you are writing for her again, A heavy duty trucking magazine. They were based in California today's Trucking which of course was based in Toronto. And I'm still involved with the owner-operator business association to some degree or back. So he can find [email protected] Uhh today's trucking.com or a Truck news dot come as well as the old back.ca. And I pop up every now and then in some other little ventures who knows where anybody will pay me, I'm a freelancer. So I mean, anybody wants to pay me to do some work for them, get in touch with me and we'll see what we can do. Well, there you go. And of course the name of your podcast It's called the podcast is called H D T talks Trucking And we've got a link to that in the show notes below me to start a Cart. Thanks. Chris Harris appreciate that. I very much appreciate you coming on in the show with that. Jim I'd like to say thanks for coming on the show. I really do appreciate your time. Alright Chris and I hope we see you soon. Take care of my friend. I hope you love the show. As much as I did, please leave us a, like a thumbs up a review, a comment, a rating. If you think you're so much and I do really appreciate your time and join us again next week for another exciting, you know, <inaudible>.