In this Season 1 Finale, Elizabeth interviews ex-teacher turned writer, Gabbie Stroud.
Gabbie Stroud is a freelance writer, novelist and recovering teacher. After years of jjuggling the demands of the primary classroom, she became disenchanted and
disillusioned, eventually making the painful decision to leave the profession she had loved.
In 2016, her critical commentary of Australia's education system was published
in Griffith Review's Edition 51 Fixing the System, which went on to be shortlisted for a Walkley Award.
Off the back of that recognition, Gabbie wrote her smash-hit memoir Teacher which was not only shortlisted for Biography Book of the Year at the 2018 ABIA Awards but also significantly contributed to the national dialogue on Education.
Gabbie lives on the far south coast of New South Wales, where she co-parents her totally awesome girls - Olivia and Sophie.
In this Season 1 Finale, Elizabeth interviews ex-teacher turned writer, Gabbie Stroud.
Gabbie Stroud is a freelance writer, novelist and recovering teacher. After years of jjuggling the demands of the primary classroom, she became disenchanted and
disillusioned, eventually making the painful decision to leave the profession she had loved.
In 2016, her critical commentary of Australia's education system was published
in Griffith Review's Edition 51 Fixing the System, which went on to be shortlisted for a Walkley Award.
Off the back of that recognition, Gabbie wrote her smash-hit memoir Teacher which was not only shortlisted for Biography Book of the Year at the 2018 ABIA Awards but also significantly contributed to the national dialogue on Education.
Gabbie lives on the far south coast of New South Wales, where she co-parents her totally awesome girls - Olivia and Sophie.
Welcome to the Get out of Teaching podcast, presented by Larksong Enterprises. I'm your host, Elizabeth Diacos. On the show, we'll look at the who, what, why, where, when and how of moving out of your education career and into a life you love. We'll meet ex-teachers, delve into what we love about teaching and how to translate that into something new. We'll talk to people who can support and inspire us as we make the transition and work on identifying the legacy we want to leave in the world. So come along for the ride as we Get out of Teaching. Episode 20 Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. And on today's show. I'm very pleased to welcome Gabbie Stroud. Hi, Gabbie, thanks for coming on the show.
Gabbie Stroud :Hi, Elizabeth, thank you so much for having me.
Elizabeth Diacos :It's a pleasure. Actually, I'm just going to change our views to side...That's it perfect. So we can both I can see both of us now. So I guess the first question I want to ask you, Gabbie, now that you're a writer, is what got you into teaching in the first place?
Gabbie Stroud :Hmm. Well, ever since I was a little girl, I had the two longings in my heart and one was to be a teacher. And one was to be a writer, except for probably a brief period in year nine, where I thought I could be an actress. And, look, being a teacher was always something that I wanted to be, I suppose ever since I first started going to school, and I just fell in love with learning and I just loved going to school. It was it was a complete world for me, and I just loved it. And I wanted to be in that world for forever. And I always tell the story of my beautiful English teacher, Mrs. D, who recognized my gift for writing. And the way she said that to me was using those words she said you have a gift and I just I was just leap from within when my teacher said that to me and anyone would think then that you would go on and want to be a writer. But no, I wanted to be a teacher, I wanted to give the gift to other people, I wanted to light other people up. So it really was confirmed for me that I wanted to be a teacher that was probably in around you nine or 10. And so then it was options for work experience and things like that. And I kept putting my hand up to go into the primary schools in my local area. And look, I never considered any other profession. Really, that was that was always what I wanted to be.
Elizabeth Diacos :Well, I love the way you put that about being lit from within. It reminds me of the Plutarch quote that "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire", and it sounds like that teacher really did that for you. So, feel alive, Gabbie -- you know.
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's still around. She's a big fan of everything that I'm doing but you know, she is one of those gorgeous teachers who just says, "Oh, I knew you were going to do great things like this. Of course you would, you know, a complete faith. I saw it right from the beginning, right from when you were 14 or 15." So, yeah, she just had that, and really she did. She had that complete faith in me, and you know, she was just so generous in her praise and in her feedback, it was such a lovely thing to do for a student. And, you know, I know in my own teaching, I went on to do that, because I knew the power that was in that.
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that with us. So when you did leave school, what was your next step and how did you get into teaching?
Gabbie Stroud :Well, you know, when I left school, it was in the 90's -- and I don't know, gap years just weren't really a thing. I didn't think of, you know, running off and drinking a lot and partying on the Gold Coast or anything like that. The natural next step for me was just to go on to uni and I did. And after uni, in my fourth year of university, I was awarded a scholarship. It was a sum of money for excellence in pre-service teaching, because I was that kind of overachiever when I was at uni. And it wasn't an award I applied for anything like that, but I just came to find myself with $3,000 awarded to me -- a cheque handed to me. And I'd always said, I'd like to teach overseas, and so away I went, I applied for a position in London and I got the job and I bought myself around the world ticket and away I went, and my gosh, let me tell you, I think back on that now and I think wasn't I brave, like, what a courageous young woman to go doing that. I don't know if I could do that right now, but, yeah, that was my first steps out into the world of teaching. I took myself, you know, to the other side of the world and to the other hemisphere, and jumped into a classroom over in London and away I went, and suddenly I was doing it.
Elizabeth Diacos :So, what was the year level you were teaching when you were working in London?
Gabbie Stroud :In London, I was assigned a year five/six class, and, ah Geez, they were beautiful and in my mind, I can still see them sitting there -- and it was a Catholic school and they wore blazers, and, you know, it was just very, I don't know, it had a sort of sense of formality that I hadn't experienced in my practice experiences in Australia. And, you know, they had their British accents and it did feel like I was in a very different world to the classrooms that I had known during my university experiences, yeah.
Elizabeth Diacos :So where were you? Where did you train, like, what uni did you go to?
Gabbie Stroud :So I went to the Australian Catholic University in Canberra, and it used to be known as Signadou Teachers' College and then it became the university. I'd plan that all out because I thought if I get a qualification through the Catholic education, then I'll open all my options I'll be able to apply to public schools and independent schools and Catholic schools. And, you know, because when you're young and idealistic, there's not a single world, you're not going to conquer and I was... I wanted to be available to go in and work in all those different places. So, yeah.
Elizabeth Diacos :So then, I assume at some point, you came back to Australia?
Gabbie Stroud :Mm hmm, yep. So I had 12 months in London, and then I returned to Australia. And yes, there was a boy, you know, there was a boy that I wanted to come home to. And also, you know, I'd only ever sort of planned that I would be over there [for] 12 months. That was just sort of my plan. It was a thing that I just wanted to do, to be able to say that I taught overseas and yeah, I just kicked that goal quite early.
Elizabeth Diacos :Well done -- and so it came back here and did you start straightaway, teaching again?
Gabbie Stroud :Yes, yes, I didn't have any breaks in my teaching until I had what I refer to as my 'breeding years' where my girls were coming along. And yeah, so I came straight back to Australia and I sent my resume out to many, many different schools. I applied for many, many different jobs, and I took the first job that that came along. And yeah, and that felt like a bit of a baptism of fire, as I write about in the book, 'Teacher', and it was a challenging community that I was in there, and the school was going through various challenges at that time. But it was a period of real growth for me, and I think it was that experience of do or die, you know, if I was going to quit, I would have quit then because that was a very, very challenging year and a very challenging experience, but I survived it and after that, I sort of felt I could survive anything. I felt a bit invincible.
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah, so I've read your book, 'Teacher', as have many others who will be listening to it. But for the audience who may not have come across it yet, especially, there's an international audience for this podcast -- like just filling us in a bit on that, that history. So, at the point where you decided to get out, what was the tipping point for you? And I know there were like, obviously, as in any one situation, there are multiple factors, when what was the kind of main catalyst for you leaving?
Gabbie Stroud :Well, you know, I went on, after that year in England, in that year in the town I call paradise. You know, I went on to teach for I think, 14 or 15 more years, and, you know, there's a natural wear and tear or an accumulation of experience that happens in any career progression over that time. But I would say that it was in the last few years of my teachin -- the change that was happening in education was exponential. You know, like we had the national curriculum rolled out, we had the professional teaching standards rolled out, we had NAPLAN [National Assessment Program - Literacy and Numeracy], the national testing program rolled out, it was just change upon change upon change. And when I use the word 'rolled out', I used that very deliberately; it was rolled out over the top of us, as though it was a steamroller coming our way. It wasn't, it didn't feel like it was integrated into my profession. I didn't feel as though I was consulted in any of those big decisions. It was just rolled out and we were told, here's what you're going to do. And all of these things that were changes that made my profession more standard, everything was to fit a standard. And so it was those large changes that were happening, but then there were also these sort of small changes that were happening within me as a result of those large changes. So what I found was happening was that I didn't have enough time to develop good relationships with my students, or that I would have to sacrifice something in order to do the things that I knew were the best practice in my classroom. And what this started to stir within me was what I call a moral and ethical conflict, where I would lie in bed at night, sort of worrying, because I knew I wasn't doing the work I was meant to do as a good teacher, that the work that I knew was important and the work that I knew that mattered. So there were a couple of big red flag moments for me about 12 months before I actually quit the profession. I lost my cool in the classroom one day; I was teaching kindergarten, and you know, kindergarten, it's not rocket science or heart surgery is it, but my goodness, they were putting me through my paces and I was probably feeling a little bit fragile to begin with. And a little boy wanted his shoe lace unknotted and he'd been asking me repeatedly, but I've been distracted by all the other needs within the class, and this child threw his shoe at me and it struck me, he got me good, good shot, and hit me in the chest. And instead of sort of just reacting to that moment, it's as though I reacted to all the things that had led to that moment, all those years of things being rolled out and imposed on teachers leading me to this point where a simple afternoon in a kindergarten classroom became this highly stressful experience. And I picked up that shoe and I walked through the classroom door, and I threw it out, I threw this shoe, I hurled it out into the playground. I even remember grunting you know, like, I really put some force behind that throw, and I slammed the door, and I looked back at my class and these are kindy kids, so they don't have a lot of experience at school, but they are looking at me as if to go 'we know that's not normal.' And I was terrified like my heart was racing and it was so uncharacteristic of me, you know, and that uncharacteristic sense of myself, that uncharacteristic behavior, that continued on for around another 12 months. So, it was things like, I lost the ability to laugh and to cry, so my emotions really narrowed, and laughter and crying and things that I do quite regularly when I'm feeling well. I had to start seeing a psychologist just to get through a basic working week. My doctor prescribed antidepressants for me and I just could feel myself thinking it was as though something was greatly amiss within me and after 12 months, I just found myself in the classroom, it was towards the end of an academic year. I was being asked to test these little kindergarten kids. I was pushing this little boy through a test that I knew he was going to fail because, for various reasons, he hadn't arrived at school with the milestones under his belt that he needed to be able to achieve a good 12 months of learning, and you know, he was probably only school-ready at the end of that first year that he had been at school, and yet I still had to push him through this test. And it was awful. I can't tell you how awful that moment was when you're doing things to this little child that you've worked so hard to build up trust and respect for. And yeah, I was pushing him through this test and it just didn't feel right, and I believe I had a panic attack or an anxiety attack; my heart started racing, I thought "Here we go, I'm having a heart attack. I'm gonna drop dead here at my desk." And yeah, I left school that day, and I went and saw my doctor and I said to my doctor, "I think I'm having a heart attack", and he had been watching this sort of slow decline over the 12 months and he said, "Maybe or maybe your heart is broken", and I didn't go back to school after that. I had two weeks in bed and then I never went back in any kind of permanent position. I wrote my letter of resignation and I was granted 12 months leave, but after the 12 months, I submitted that letter of resignation and I've never taught since then.
Elizabeth Diacos :Wow, so it was [a] pretty momentous occasion?
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, it really was. It was. Again, it was those series of just small mundane events, but those two key moments; the shoe throwing, and that moment of testing, those moments will stay with me forever. They were the big markers of, you know, the shoe throwing was the beginning of the end and that testing, that day of that little young man that was the end of the end.
Elizabeth Diacos :So, in that interim year when you had leave, but you were, I guess, having some respite: Were you afraid to submit your resignation? Like, I mean, presumably you were on leave so you were still technically employed by the Department of Education -- so, were you worried about, like all that effort and work you put into becoming a teacher, and then leaving all that behind?
Gabbie Stroud :At that point in time, no, I wasn't, because I just felt so good. It was as though I was remembering what it was to be alive again. And I honestly was looking at the world completely anew, because prior to that, school had entirely been my world and I was discovering other things that I enjoyed, and I had time for my kids and my family and I could cook meals and I could go to the bank and I could, you know, have idle chitchat with my neighbor. You know, I wasn't constantly rushing and half of my head and heart weren't stuck at school, you know. I was fully wherever I was and wherever I went, so I knew, I knew that whole year that I was going to resign. The only thing that probably caused me pause was that I had a full time permanent position and they, where I live, they are as rare as hen's teeth. And so I felt a bit, you know, I felt the pressure of giving up something that a position that was so coveted, but, you know, I knew for my health that I had to let it go. I was at that time, I was still married and my ex husband still has holiday apartments and so during that year, I helped him with the holiday apartments, that's what I did for work and I cleaned units, I cleaned these apartments, I cleaned them so good. It's so satisfying, you walk in, you clean it, you walk out, the job is done -- was the complete opposite thing. Work stays at work. You can see the fruits of your labour there and then, and we had regular guests who would come and stay at those apartments, year after year. Some of the guests that came in at Easter, I remember one lady said to me, "Gabbie, have you had Botox?" And I said, "Ah, no", and she said "You just look amazing." She said "You just look so light and happy and relaxed." And that was for me the impact of walking away from teaching, you know, I even appeared physically different, which showed how much stress I must have been carrying in my body and in my face.
Elizabeth Diacos :Wow. So, you did that for a little while, presumably, for that year, did you clean?
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, it was about 12 months, sorry, it was about 10 months, and then the school needed to know, they needed to advertise, you know, throughout term four and, you know, it was interesting because I tried to give that resignation in, you know, in the January or the December previous, and the principal, really, he was wonderful and he really championed me and he said, "No, I'm going to get you some time and I really want you to think about this. It's a big deal. It's a big proposition what you're saying", and you know, he bought me some time, which was wonderful of him. But then when I went back in around the October, the September, October, and handed my resignation in -- that poor man. He was so harried and overworked and embedded in his own problems. He just took it from me, like he had no more fight left in him for himself, let alone to stand up for me or try and convince me otherwise, he just was like "Yep, right." And I think in his head, he was already thinking, "Right, advertise her position, fill that spot, juggle the staff", and you know, he was already thinking about the next thing, it was, it was a dumb deal. There was no more, you know.
Elizabeth Diacos :And that isn't like, just, I guess the archetype isn't it? Like of the principal, this poor person who's got stuff coming from above and from below, sideways, and the piggy in the middle, and trying to deal with all the moving parts together and of course. Okay, tick that box.
Gabbie Stroud :And I completely understand it you know, like, at that point in the year, who's got time to prop up the teacher who's bumbling along and fumbling your way through her own life, you know, so I don't begrudge him that at all. In fact, I still celebrate him that he bought me that year at the start of the year and that he afforded me that time to think, because I could very well have regrets had I not had that time, but it was, yeah, that was very good of him to go in. It was a battle for him to get that time for me, so I'm indebted to him. But yeah, it does amuse me that, you know, the next time I went in with that resignation letter, he was like, "Yep, right. Okay, next." I wouldn't want to be a principal, that would be such a difficult job.
Elizabeth Diacos :So it sounds like there are no regrets then.
Gabbie Stroud :No, look, I don't have regrets. I just could not do it anymore. You know, I just couldn't. And, look, I don't regret it either because the job that I was doing when I left wasn't the job that I wanted. It wasn't teaching as I knew and it wasn't teaching that I believed teaching should be. It was much more about data collection and accountability and making things standard. There was no room for me left in that teaching job and there was no room for the students, and so I don't regret it because I left a job that I wasn't enjoying and that I don't believe I was doing well. And I don't see that teaching has returned either, so even though I grieve it and I miss it, I don't long to go back to it because I know it's not there. It's like longing for a romantic ideal or something like that. I know it doesn't exist right now. So having said that I popped into school yesterday and had to collect my daughters early from school and I had to go in and sign them out -- and I was accosted by a small group of young kindergarten boys and I had a lovely conversation with them. And for a little moment, I thought, "Gee, I missed this."
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah. But then you walked away, right?
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, then I walked away -- then I walked away. And it was also helped by the fact that a friend and colleague, as she walked past me said, "Gee, there must be an easier way to earn a living." And she just kept walking and went into the staff room. And I thought, "Yep, reality check. Thank you very much."
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah, I can remember walking up the hallway once with this ragtag grade of kids straggling behind me, not in rows. And they were just -- we've been to the library or somewhere. So I was an art teacher, but every now and again, I think I took them to the library for something, or I had to, you know, replace another teacher. I said to the deputy who was walking past in the opposite direction, "Who put this grade together?" And she said, "Don't say things like that!" We're out of control. And yeah, yes. So I just had that vision of the front desk. I just had my own -- it came to my mind as you were describing that. So, Gabbie, as you were sort of transferring from being in the hospitality industry to becoming a writer, what did you need to do? Like, did you need to go and do more study or training? It sounds like you were already a bit of a natural. How did you get from where you were to where you are now?
Gabbie Stroud :Really, probably just a very stubborn and determined belief in myself is how I got from cleaning units to being a writer. It was -- and that was probably forced by a little bit of desperation as well if I'm really honest with you. So yes, I do have a talent for writing and I'm really lucky I've not studied it at university. I read a lot, I've taught myself everything. And I've done some -- I've applied for mentoring programs and things like that. So I've learned from other writers, but I've not -- no formal study behind me in terms of writing. So that's a really interesting question how I transitioned because after I left teaching, after that, I also left my marriage, and so I had this fabulous midlife crisis, I suppose we could call it, where I brought my whole life to ground zero. So everything I ever knew, teaching, and my married family life, no longer existed. And that's where that sort of sense of desperation came in. I thought "Right, it is now or never. You've always said you wanted to be a writer. You've got a whole lot of story behind you right now. So you bring that together and you make something of this." And at the time, I felt very much a failure, and I felt as though things were in a big mess. So I was quite determined to clean that mess up and make something beautiful from it. Having said that, so there's that sense of working hard and going at things with determination, which I did. But also, I was incredibly lucky I was the right person in the right place at the right time with the right voice and I pitched an article to a publication called 'Griffith Review'. They were publishing -- they were going to publish an edition called 'Fixing the System'. And when I saw that callout, I thought, "Hmm, I know a system that's broken. Have you had a look at the education system?" And I sent in a submission about that, and they took that up. So, I was very lucky that that publication was willing to listen at that point in time. So I would say that how did I transition; I transitioned with that bullheaded determination, a sense of desperation, and also a smidge of luck, and it feels as though I've been crossing that divide from teacher to writer for a long time now, but yeah, I am finally confident putting my hand up and saying "Yes, I'm Gabbie Stroud and I'm a writer." You know, it's taken a couple of books now for me to have that confidence, but I'm...
Elizabeth Diacos :Getting goosebumps.
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah. Look, I can't tell you, like it was scary. There was scary times, there were scary times when I thought "I don't know how to write a book and I don't know how to put all of these experiences into words." There were scary times financially. And there were just scary times where I just doubted myself you know, like I just thought "Oh gawd, Gabs, stick to what you know, you know, get back to teaching, go and make a proper living, you know, you've got kids now and it's time to grow up and stop chasing this sort of dream." But yeah, I, again, that determination and that sense of wanting to make something good of things that felt quite bad really stuck with me. So Yeah, I pushed through and now here we are.
Elizabeth Diacos :Can I just take you back to that? That feeling of desperation because I think a lot of people are afraid of that, are afraid of that feeling of maybe not having enough money or not having a clear purpose, or not really knowing like what the next step will be. What did that look like day to day for you? Like give us a day in the life of Gabbie Stroud back when that was happening.
Gabbie Stroud :Well, fortunately, I had regained the ability to cry. So there's quite a bit of crying. There was a lot of introspection and a lot of journaling. You know, I would buy a notebook that would ordinarily last me a year or two and I was filling it within three months and a lot of it was examining how did I get here what, you know, I really had to reconcile and understand within myself, that it actually wasn't a problem with me. I felt as though the loss of my teaching career was because I failed, and I kept looking at all those other teachers, colleagues, friends, and just teachers that just go and do the work every day. And I kept thinking, "Why can they do it, but I cannot do it." So, you know, those days, some of those days looked pretty bleak and hard and sad, but they also looked like, I suppose healing or recovery. You know, it was, I was nursing myself through the grief of my marraige, but also the grief of teaching which really was a grief as well. So I learnt a lot about self-care at that point in time, you know, that I've got to learn how to, you know, put my health first, so that, for me, looks like having to exercise every day. Urgh, exercise. I still hate it, but I do it because it's good for me. And you know, feeding myself properly and looking after my kids. I'm connecting with my friends, making time for my interests, all these things that I actually didn't have time to do when I was a teacher, so I spent a lot of time at that period, looking after myself, you know, and just taking care of myself, slowing things down. And as I said earlier, like looking at the world anew and realising that you don't have to work yourself at breakneck speed and to a point of exhaustion to have value in this world and to contribute to your community, that there are other ways of doing it. A big thing that I want to just add when I'm sort of talking about this stuff is that a real turning point and a sense of understanding for me came when I stumbled across an article by Doris Santoro called 'Is it burnout? Or is it Demoralisation?' And anyone listening can find that just by throwing those words into Google, Doris Santoro, 'Is it burnout? Or is it Demoralisation?' And this is research done by an American lady, who analysed the tweets of millions of teachers and discovered that whilst many teachers believe themselves to be burnt out, what they're actually experiencing is demoralisation, and demoralisation is the experience that we have in a workplace and in a career where we are continually being told to do work and to enact values that are the opposite of what we believe and what we know to be the correct things to do. And once I understood this, I felt as though I was starting to heal and recover because I realised that it wasn't me, it is this system that perpetuates demoralisation and is based in demoralisation and does not respond when someone pushes back against that. So that was a very liberating sort of understanding for me and I think even for teachers now who might still be actively in the profession, just knowing that those feelings you have aren't you failing -- that it is a system that's not supporting you, and it's not enacting the good values that we know should be around teaching and learning. I think there's something kind of looses the weight off you then or it's sort of absolves you from these really difficult feelings that we struggle with. So, yeah, that time was some -- I suppose a time of healing and revelation and reflection.
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah. So how did you make a living in that time, while you were starting a writing career?
Gabbie Stroud :I was on the hustle. And oftentimes I still am on the hustle. I'm a professional hustla. So I did some work as a disability support worker and I worked with a young man with a disability, supporting him several afternoons a week. I managed storage sheds, and I still do that. I did some freelance writing and I still do for ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corperation) Online. And also for a local magazine around here. I spent one summer waitressing and I was terrible at that. I was not great as a waitress -- good at talking to the guests and they enjoyed that, but I'd walk away and still have the menus in my hands, things like that. I was terrible at it. And what else did I do at that time? I just took any little bits of work that came my way; I tutored students that were in year 12, I had a little tiny business that I called 'Bookworms', which was like reading books to little kids that were younger than preschool, sort of infants and toddlers and singing songs and sort of that while I was doing that coaching their parents and teaching them about the importance of literacy. I was just doing anything and everything that came my way and then gradually as the writing gained momentum, and I was earning enough income from that, I was able to let some of those things go. But as you'll notice, I'm still on the storage sheds. You know, there are still a few things that I haven't let go of yet.
Elizabeth Diacos :And can I just say that is great. Like to hear that because I think everyone who is listening, who wants to get out, then one of the big fears is "What am I gonna do?" Make it work.
Gabbie Stroud :Yep. Look, I have friends who say to me, "Oh, Gabbie, I'd love to do what you do, but I just can't afford it." And let me tell you, I couldn't afford it either. You know, and especially then once I got divorced, like financially, it was a terrible position that I'd put myself in. But you know, I'd always had that faith in myself that I would be able to rise up and get through it. You know, if I'd survive that first year of teaching when I was back in Australia, that was a very difficult year, I was sort of like, "I can do this. I can, you know, build myself up, I can earn income." The thing that teachers need to understand is they have an incredible skill set. As teachers, we have so many desirable skills, like we can we can talk off the cuff, we can talk in front of people, we're good communicators. We know how to navigate technology. We are flexible thinkers, we're innovative problem solvers. We get the job done. We've generally got a really, like strong work ethic. These are such desirable qualities out there in the rest of the world beyond school. But for anyone listening who's thinking about leaving the profession, there are a few sort of words of warning that I would give them, like the first is I don't want to glamorise the Gabbie Stroud story, like people need to know that, you know -- I haven't told this to anyone, but I'm going to safely share it with you. There was a time where I had $1.80 to my name, I was hanging out for the next payday. That's a bit scary going from a Tuesday to a Thursday with the dollar-eighty, you know, and I think people think that I quit teaching, wrote some books, and now I'm a millionaire. Please, let's blow that myth out of the water. I so am not, and I still hustle to this day, and you know, the next thing I might do after this is take a call for a storage shed, you know, so I want people to have a grounded sense of of that. But also, I think, too, rather than quitting it like I did, I think it's advisable to explore all your options. So my psychologists used to always say to me, "Buy yourself some time and some space. So consider just downsizing like going to just one or two days a week or you know what, figure out what's the minimum amount you need to earn to be able to remain viable, you know, so figure out something like that." See, if you can use up all your long service leave, your sick leave, you know, things like that. Look at ways you can buy yourself some time and space to really think about what the issues are, and then make that decision about whether you're going to leave teaching, you know, because maybe the issue for you is you're just working too hard and you just need less on your work plate. You know, maybe you're not having the moral ethical conflict that I was having. So, yeah, it's not, the thing that I've done is not a path I would recommend. You have to be, I'm going to say courageous, but maybe possibly stupid to do what I did. I'm just very fortunate to land on my feet.
Elizabeth Diacos :Well, that, I really appreciate you saying that because I think that is a genuine fear and I say to people "Go and work out what you actually need to live off and where you say you can't do it." But then also, having awareness so that you are in a better position to make good decisions when the time comes. And absolutely, use that sick leave. If you're struggling and your mental health is suffering that's what that's there for. And you don't need to be a martyr, how many countless weeks of sick pay I left on the table when I left. Now I'm like, why do you pay week (?), it would have been better and it would have been a little reality check, for everyone around me to to say, "Hey, hang on a minute. This job is taking its toll and it's okay to be sick and it's okay to take a bit of time, recooperate. And then maybe I could have stuck it out a little bit longer too, because, I didn't, I mean, yeah, I would have loved to have stayed, I only had a short career, I was only really teaching for eight years. And I realise that, you know, like you, that I just couldn't keep going and I was starting to be that grumpy teacher again. And I've been in my first year out of not knowing any better or how to do it better. But I've finally learned how to do it well, and now I felt myself kind of reverting back and so, I don't want to be that teacher. I don't want to inflict myself on the little children. You know when I mean that.
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, that was my fear, too. I didn't want to become the cynical old teacher on staff and I felt as though that's the path I was heading -- heading towards. And I just wanted to add Elizabeth; I think that sounds like really sound advice that you share with people when they talk to you about leaving teaching. And my psychologist also said another thing because she did say to me, you know, make sure that you'll be alright financially, you know, really think that through. And she said to me, because no matter how stressed you feel, you are now teaching, there is nothing more stressful than not having enough money to pay your bills and make your way forward, you know, in life. And she is absolutely correct, that is the most stressed I've been, that dollar-eighty day was very, you know, I never want to go back to that ever, ever again. So, they're the things that you need to weigh up and consider, you know, as, you know, I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with money, but you know, we've got to be honest, if we need it, we need it. So you know, make sure you don't leave yourself short.
Elizabeth Diacos :Okay, so if you've got anything, any other advice you'd give to someone who maybe is feeling stuck, they've been thinking about leaving, but they're just not sure if it's a good decision, what advice would you give to someone in that situation?
Gabbie Stroud :Well, again, I'd say the time and space issue, do whatever you can to give yourself some time and space to really think, because sometimes we react emotionally when we're not, and we end up with an outcome we're not satisfied with when really we needed that time and space to figure out what the particular issue is. Because perhaps you're on the wrong year level or in the wrong class. Perhaps you're at the wrong school. Perhaps the commute is what's wearing you down, perhaps it's that you've taken a position of leadership and really you're just a foot soldier, you know, so you need to narrow down what's the issue and address the actual issue, whatever it is for you. The other thing that I'd say is that if you are feeling the effects of Demoralisation, which I described earlier, Doris Santoro suggests that one of the antidotes to that is, you need to find your tribe. So you need to find the people, the colleagues and the friends that are the safe space where you can talk about your feelings of demoralisation and also be lifted up and helped back to being the best teacher that you feel that you can be. And I know this wasn't the case for me, but in speaking with lots of other teachers, I know that it is the case for them that they are on a staff where their tribe is not there. You know, all the other teachers there will say, "Oh, no, we're all coping. We're all fine. There's no problem here." Or maybe they're the young, enthusiastic new teacher on staff and they're stuck with all the old cynical cronies and it's, and it's really hard to put forward, you know, so those things will all contribute to demoralisation, but if you find your tribe, if you find your support network, then that will help to ease those feelings of demoralisation. You'll feel as though you belong in your profession. You'll feel as though you're supported. And it might mean that you have to look outside your school for that support, you know, so it might be at a neighbouring school, you can connect and make friends with the teacher there or you meet someone at a PD, professional development day. I don't know what the latest acronym is, I use, like, outdated acronyms. But you might be at some professional development, you meet some like-minded teachers, they exchange numbers with them, you know, organise to get together and have chats and, you know, create those networks that are going to support you and help you. I wish I had have known that, because even though my staff were really terrific, I probably could have gotten more support from other, say, kindergarten teachers. We only had one kindergarten class, I could have been doing some networking to sort of lighten my workload, things like that. So that's a little tip that I would suggest for teachers who are feeling the effects of demoralisation.
Elizabeth Diacos :Yeah, and Facebook's amazing for that right now, because so many groups that are subject area groups or like, I mean, one called 'Elementary Art Teachers.' That's incredible. And even though I'm not teaching anymore, they'll say "Does anyone know an artist who I can teach this kind of thing with?" And I'm like, "Oh, what about this?" And so I love engaging with those conversations even though I'm out of it now. I still enjoy those professional conversations. So yeah, that's great advice, thank you.
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah. And teachers have a terrific capacity to lift one another up. No one can lift you up the way your teaching buddies can. So that's who we need to be going to, because we all going to die waiting for someone up above to fix this system, so they'll look after each other and look after ourselves. You know, while we while we struggle through.
Elizabeth Diacos :So apart from managing the storage [shed]...
Gabbie Stroud :I'm so classy. Yeah.
Elizabeth Diacos :Someone has to do that, right. And I love that it's like, it's just real, like, this is what you do as an extra thing. Cumulatively, that supports your time to write. So what's life like for you now that you've told us what the day in the life was when you had $1.80 in your pocket, what is it like for you now?
Gabbie Stroud :So, it's still the usual hustle of the morning where you're getting the kids up and off to school and, you know, all of that sort of thing. And then I come here to my desk and I open my laptop and I work on whatever I'm writing. So I write for 'Mamma Mia' website, and sometimes I'll pitch something to ABC Online, or some magazines that I write for. So I'll work on something like that if I've got a deadline, or I work on my major work, you know, so I'm excited to announce that I'm working on a fiction at the moment. So that's like my next project. So hopefully, it'll see the light of day and be published. So I sit here and I write and I work on that and in the meantime, I field phone calls, and I do blatant self-promotion on social media and I chat with beautiful people such as yourself. And look, I'm often asked to comment on things on education, you know, so someone from a newspaper or television station might ring me and say, "Hey, could you comment on this?" And oftentimes I'm like, "Yes, give me an hour so I can quickly get across it." And I'll read it and as you're saying, I'll go and look at some of the forums that I'm involved in and see what teachers are saying about this and get a read on the room, and then I'll go and say my piece, but those kinds of things are great for a little bit of publicity for me, for my books, and things like that. But you know, being an education spokesperson, as I'm sometimes described as, it's not enough to pay the bills. I don't get paid anything for doing those things. You just put that stuff out there and hope that it comes back to you as good karma or makes things better for teachers.
Elizabeth Diacos :You've recently released the book 'Dear Parents'. Can you tell us a little bit about that? While we're on the subject of shameless self-promotion, let's go. Here's your chance.
Gabbie Stroud :So I was giving a presentation in Sydney to a roomful of teachers and my publisher, Jane Palfreyman came along. And she was astonished by the number of teachers that had turned out to hear me speak, but also the sense of demoralisation that was in the room, that it's almost palpable when teachers get together and they're given permission to speak freely. And Jane was very disenchanted to learn that even after my book had been out for several months, that no politician or policymaker had spoken to me or had shown sort of any interest in my book or, you know, making changes to the system or consulting with me. And as we left that event that evening, Jane said to me, "Gabbie, you need to write a book for the parents." And I sort of looked at her in, you know, teacher to parent, I thought "Oh yeah, here comes a lead balloon sort of thing." And I said, "You reckon, Jane?" And she said, "Yes, I do, because they're parents and they vote." And I thought, gee, that's really clever. And so the idea for 'Dear Parents' was born, and the idea was to give parents an understanding of why teachers are feeling like they do, and why parents should feel invested in the plight of teachers, because it actually really impacts on their kids. So that was how the idea was born. It was initially meant to be just 20,000 words and a series of essays, but I clearly had more to say, and I find essays a little bit boring. So I turned it into something of a story. So for those who haven't read the book, it's basically the story of a teacher who goes rogue; she sends an email late one night and she drafts it and she says, all the things that a teacher wishes they could say, and then she accidentally hit send. And the email goes out to all the parents and it opens a dialogue and a commentary that is probably a conversation that's long overdue, and it gives parents that fly on the wall experience of what it's like to be in a classroom in Australia, you know, at this present time.
Elizabeth Diacos :Gabbie, do you think that now that parents have experienced maybe a little bit of what it's like to be a teacher, who dealt with the, I'm not going to call it homeschooling, but remote learning, where they've had to supervise remote learning, that conversation might have shifted a little bit now.
Gabbie Stroud :I don't know that the conversation has shifted as yet, but I feel as though parents have gained an awareness of some of the big things that impact education. So I think they got a sense of how political education is, you know, like teachers, they were watching the news to find out when are we going to send our kids back to school? How long is this going to last? What's this going to look for? I think they started to gain an understanding of the importance of a teacher, you know, those moments where kids really require feedback and they need it instantaneously, and so that poor parent working from home in isolation, had their work day interrupted with the kide coming saying, "Have I done this right? Can you check my work?" So I think they learnt the value of the teacher for providing feedback. And I think we also saw the value of schools as providing so much more than just an academic education for our kids. You know, schools are their world, it's their social world. It's their emotional world. It's where they're stretching their wings and having a go at doing things independent of their parents. So I think parents became aware of those things, but in terms of have we discussed that and then what that means in terms of how we value teachers and schools, I think that's a conversation that's yet to sort of happen. I think the conversation that did happen was somewhat superficial. I read a lovely, well intentioned article by someone saying, you know, "When my kids go back to school, I'm going to give that teacher some wine and a box of chocolates." And part of me is like, yeah, that's nice, but how about a pay increase and changing some of their working conditions and providing support for students that need it and resourcing classrooms properly? And, you know, I've got a list that's a lot longer than wine and chocolates as lovely as that is, but yeah, more. We need more.
Elizabeth Diacos :Great comments. Yes, indeed. So, okay. You've written this book, how the sales going? Is it in the public arena, like are people reading this book?
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah, I think so. I have a policy where I don't ask about how my sales go because I don't want to get hung up on that. I don't want to 'NAPLAN' my own books and try and compete against myself. What has happened now is that I have become sort of positioned as the person that the media looks to when they need a comment from a teacher. That puts me in quite a powerful position, and I recognize that and that has come as a result of my first book 'Teacher' and then this follow up book, 'Dear Parents'. So I see that as a privilege and an honour and I try my best to get it right each time and so that's probably the best work that 'Dear Parents' has done for me at the moment. I'm not sure that it's yet reached the audience of parents, I get a lot of feedback from teachers going "Huzzah, Gabbie, you've done it again, this is great!" But look, I had one parent say to me -- look, they're not a teacher, and they're not in education, and he said to me, "Look, Gabbie, I read it, but I've got to say it was a bitter pill to swallow." So maybe parents are reading it and then sort of tucking it away going, "Oh, gee, that was confronting." So I'm yet to sort of hear a lot of feedback from parents in terms of their response to it.
Elizabeth Diacos :Then maybe all the teachers who have a copy should be giving it to some parents.
Gabbie Stroud :Yeah. And I get these great comments from teachers saying "This should be mandatory reading every time someone enrolls their child at school." You know, so that's really lovely and like I said, no one will lift you up the way teachers do, beautiful people.
Elizabeth Diacos :Maybe, you know how they have those little self-help books at the counter of the bookshop?
Gabbie Stroud :Yes, yes.
Elizabeth Diacos :Maybe we need a short version for the parents. There's another tip for you, Gabbie.
Gabbie Stroud :The abridged version. Yeah, absolutely. It amuses me that with some, that 'Dear Parents' is categorised as self-help. When I first saw that, I was like messaging all my friends going "Oh my God, like I'm qualified to give anyone self-help advice. Dear Lord." So that was amusing. But you know, teacher capacity speaking to parents? Yes, I believe I am. But yeah, self-help, snorted with laughter.
Elizabeth Diacos :I'm certain they've put it in the right spot. So Gabbie, what's life like for you now?
Gabbie Stroud :It's a lot more relaxed than it ever was. And I feel like I know my own children. I've got two daughters, Olivia and Sophie, and I feel like I'm much more in their world and in their lives than I ever was before. Life's good, I'm happy, you know, and I still grieve my teaching. I was such a good teacher. And yeah, I was so good at it, and I miss it. But like I said, I know that teaching role, that I've got romantically locked in my head is not the role I would walk into if I took a position at a school tomorrow. So I'm okay with that. And, yeah, look, life's good and like all of us, you know, struggling through this health pandemic we find ourselves in and I'm just trying to make the best of a bad situation and stay afloat. So yeah, I really do feel very fortunate I'm able to do something I love every single day, and that's a real privilege.
Elizabeth Diacos :So the final question before we wrap this up; what's the legacy that you want to leave in the world?
Gabbie Stroud :I think that I would like to be remembered as that woman who wrote the book, 'Teacher'. I'm very, very proud of that, and with that legacy, comes the story behind the book. But the story of the work that the book did, which was that it gave teachers the voice. I was able to put classroom life and teaching life and learning out there. And that had never been done before. We've always talked about education in terms of soundbites, like Gonski and NAPLAN and funding and testing and attrition rates and things like this, and I put a story to it, I put a narrative to it. And it was a teacher's voice. And I'm incredibly proud of that. And I have so many lovely messages from teachers saying, your stories and my stories, we can't be true because teachers are so different, but the experiences we've had and the feelings we have is so similar. And so I'm proud of that legacy that I gave teachers a voice and I put our story out there in the form of my story.
Elizabeth Diacos :And thank you for shining a light on that. I think many many teachers feel a real resonance when they read that book. And I certainly did. And you know, as I said to you, just before we started recording, I went out and bought the book, came home, and sat for two days and read it, and I was just crying the whole time. And I'm like, what is happening here? Because it did reflect my experience in that sense of really being overwhelmed sometimes with all the demands that were impossible, and having a creative persona as a teacher, that maybe wasn't really who I wanted to be. So yeah, thank you so much, Gabbie, for your work and for coming on the show today.
Gabbie Stroud :Thank you so much for having me and thanks to all those people who have listened. I appreciate your time.
Elizabeth Diacos :You've been listening to the 'Get Out of Teaching' podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises with your host, Elizabeth Diacos. Do you know someone else who could benefit from hearing more stories of hope and transition from teachers all around the world? Please take a moment to share this and other episodes via your podcast app. Each share helps me reach listeners just like you, who can benefit from this content. The 'Get Out of Teaching' podcast is proud to be part of the 'Experts on Air' podcast network. For shownotes and other resources, please visit larksong.com.au/podcast.