Ross is a former secondary maths and drama teacher.
Although he really enjoyed teaching for several years, he is thrilled to be working in his new role in Christian ministry with the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students (AFES).
He is married with no children and on the weekend enjoys building in his backyard and buying slighter nicer coffees than on weekdays. He really is quite a normal person (so he says!)
To find out more about the work of AFES, go to: www.afes.org.au
Ross is a former secondary maths and drama teacher.
Although he really enjoyed teaching for several years, he is thrilled to be working in his new role in Christian ministry with the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical Students (AFES).
He is married with no children and on the weekend enjoys building in his backyard and buying slighter nicer coffees than on weekdays. He really is quite a normal person (so he says!)
To find out more about the work of AFES, go to: www.afes.org.au
Welcome to Season 2 of the Get Out of Teaching Podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises. I'm your host, Elizabeth Diacos. On the show, we'll look at the who, what, where, why, when and how of moving out of your Education Career and into a life you love. In this season, we'll meet ex-teachers who have taken their hobbies and passions from outside of education, and created a new career for themselves. We'll talk to people who can support and inspire us as we make the transition, and work on identifying the legacy we want to leave in the world. So come along for the ride as we get out of teaching. Episode 17. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. And on today's show, I'm very pleased to be interviewing Ross McKinnon, who is a Christian ministry. I'll stop, say that again. He's a Christian ministry trainee, but he's a recovering Math teacher.(Laughs) Hi, Ross. Welcome to the show.
Ross McKinnon:Hi Elizabeth, thanks.
Elizabeth Diacos:So Ross and I are - full disclosure. Ross and I go to church together when we're not restricted by Zoom church. And so that's how we know one another. So Ross, tell us what got you into teaching in the first place?
Ross McKinnon:Oh. Well believe it or not I wanted, when I left high school, I wanted to be an actor. And my wife's parents said to me, "Perhaps it will be hard to find a career as an actor, Ross. So you should, you should study something where you can do that too. But you have a backup." So I enrolled in Teaching in Arts so that I could have the background. And basically, as I did my course, I realized I didn't want to be an actor.
Elizabeth Diacos:That was lucky.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, yeah. My 18 year old self wasn't, wasn't telling you the truth.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah.
Ross McKinnon:And I just, I love my teaching rounds. Yeah, just it was so great. So I thought yeah, I'll do it.
Elizabeth Diacos:Awesome. And so what was the context? Like, where did you start off and what year levels were you teaching?
Ross McKinnon:Mmm. I was really lucky when I got my job. They made it really easy on the interview. And they said, well, they told me not to teach a different thing to what I was when I rocked up day one, but basically I, I did some year 12 Math's most years. But each year actually, did for five years teaching, and some a couple other Senior Math's things and a little bit of Junior Math's, but mostly Senior Math's in high school.
Elizabeth Diacos:And I do know that you also are heavily involved in the school productions. Do you want to tell us a bit of that?
Ross McKinnon:Yes, luck. I got to be the actor without having to work as an actor. It was.(Laughs). Yeah, so I did a lot of, (inaudible) helped out with the school production as well. But as I didn't ever teach any drama classes, and I even started requesting not to get a drama allotment because I just really liked Math teaching.
Elizabeth Diacos:Right. Okay, so, so you see, you did teach drama?
Ross McKinnon:Ah. No. I never taught it. And then I even started requesting not to issue on my like allotment form.
Elizabeth Diacos:Oh, okay, so you ask to not do it. So I guess.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah.
Elizabeth Diacos:But you still had the fun of doing the school production?
Ross McKinnon:Yes. Yep.
Elizabeth Diacos:The fun slash stress
Ross McKinnon:60% of my real job. Time allotment. It's
Elizabeth Diacos:Yes, we've all been there. Okay, well, maybe not everyone who's listening. But I'm sure that many teachers have been sucked into some extracurricular project that became overwhelming, and at the expense of everything that we're actually meant to be doing all week. All right, so so Ross, what was the tipping point then that got that made you decide to get out of teaching?
Ross McKinnon:Huh? That's interesting, because in many ways, I was quite content teaching like I, I didn't hate my job. In fact, I really liked my job. And I was doing a lot of hours, but I was enjoying it. Like, you know, school production was hard work. And I would stay there till seven o'clock sometimes, but I didn't care. I liked it. But sort of boiling in the back of my mind for a number of years since I'd finished uni was whether I might do something else. So whether I would do this thing that I'm doing now trying to be some sort of Christian ministry worker. And I hadn't really given it much thought. Probably it coincided with getting a girlfriend who I'm now married to and her saying you'd be really good at this, you should consider it. But I don't think that's what was what was changing at the time. That's probably a big player. And maybe some other people saying, hey, you'd be really good at this. Why don't you consider doing this? And so I think I just had started to consider that. And I think, yeah, probably, I think a lot of people maybe listening or thinking I want out of teaching was a little bit different for me. I actually loved teaching. But there was in some ways There's better things to consider.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. Okay. richer
Ross McKinnon:horizon.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah, a richer horizon. That's a lovely way of putting it. So you had some encouragement from various sources from your girlfriend and also from other people, presumably, from church and other other ministry, places that you were involved in? Was there fear around making that transition?
Ross McKinnon:Absolutely. I think that was actually my biggest my biggest apprehension, like, in some ways, it was a no brainer, right? There was a lot of good things about it. And this, this coming into this Christian ministry training ship, but the fee existed in that I not only did I like my job, but there was a lot of enticing things about keeping my teaching job. So I had an ongoing position. It was full time, which is what I wanted, and it was close to home. And I got along with my colleagues. And it was just like, it was comfortable and easy. And that in that sense, the call was really strong of kind of what ticks the boxes. And so I was really struggling to, I think, give up those things. I felt like and I realized, once I got when I started my new theory teaching, that it was like the call was really strong. And, and everyone was just saying, Hi, this is stay doing this. This is this is safe, this is easy. But then actually, I was I felt very free when I finished teaching. And realize those things were kind of lies like, so I'm getting much less salary now. But I don't care, like and there's cost consequences, of course, but it doesn't outweigh the benefits. I don't see my friends, I was a big thing. I've got this friend I've been friends with for five years. I work with him every day, and I love them. But and I miss them sometimes. But I don't regret making a change.
Elizabeth Diacos:And when you say your friends, you're talking about your teacher colleagues.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah. As in my colleagues. Yeah. You know, I'd have the same desk next to this guy that started the same year as me when I started teaching. We were We were genuine friends. We did stuff outside of work occasionally. Maybe that's how males do their friendships. We were friends, we worked together. Yeah, but I don't feel like GM. And I don't say that much anymore. But I don't feel like those things that I lost actually outweighed the benefits nearly as much as I thought they would.
Elizabeth Diacos:Right. Okay, so, so we said there was fear, it sounds like the way you described, it was almost like there were these enticing voices saying, Come this way, little child and lure you into the forest. And and so you're saying that those comforts of the teaching job, were almost like a siren song. To Lou, you're Lou, you're away from what you actually needed to do what your core purpose was. And
Ross McKinnon:yeah, because even other things like I'm, I got this two year position as a performing arts coordinator. And but when I had left, I was halfway through that position. But there's something that says I shouldn't leave early. Even though I've been given this position, of course, I can leave, you know, they just appoint another person. I don't care. But I felt like oh, this is my next step. And then after that, I think probably I'd like to be a level coordinator. Because I want some leadership experience in teaching. There's always kind of this thing that you're progressing towards. Yeah, even though I don't feel like I was, like a climber particularly, that wasn't my big goal. There were still things I wanted to do.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah, and so that there was a natural progression, just a career progression that you will get to follow if you'd stayed there.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, yep. And even all it has is long service leave. I've been teaching for five years. After two more years, maybe I should stay for two more years of teaching cash out my long service leave,
Elizabeth Diacos:though, just for our international listeners, because not everyone gets that we've had a very strong union movement in the in Australia over many years. And so one of the benefits of working somewhere is that after 10 years, you get long service leave, but you can take it pro rata after seven years. And so when I left I think I had about 13 weeks of paid leave up my sleeve. When I left it is not it's unrelated to sick leave or anything else. It's just a payout for sticking at it for that long.
Ross McKinnon:Like I said, and I still have some ways
Elizabeth Diacos:that's it. Well, the thing was though it you know, I evaporated pretty quickly. 13 weeks wasn't that long in the scheme of things. Okay, so so when you did decide to leave finally, how what was the catalyst like how did you overcome that fear then That or maybe more, not really the fear, but like that lure of, of this the comfortable, the comfortable life and the the secure life and the life that felt really quite easy on you.
Ross McKinnon:Hmm, yeah, um, well, I think a lot of it was coming to terms with what actually mattered. So, you know, you think about this question of like, perhaps purpose, or what do you want to get out of your life long term. And I realized that teaching wasn't going to serve those things in the same way that this apprenticeship balls. And so I realized, actually, I think that's the kind of turning point was when I realized that I, I actually needed to be able to let go those things. So I thought that I had to have a reliable salary. And I thought that I had to have a full time job and ongoing position, because those things are the most important. And I think I realized, I think when I realized that actually, those were not the most important things to me. It became very freeing, and then the decision became a no brainer, because I was always weighing these things up, right? I love my teaching job. It's got all these reliability things. And but also, I really want to do this ministry apprenticeship. It will help me grow in my ability to talk to other people about my faith and about Jesus. And, you know, I could do it for two years, because a two year commitment and I could go back to teaching so far, but then I'd have to give up a few things I could sort of all of a sudden I realized these things didn't really matter if I gave them up. Yeah, they weren't. They weren't what was important. Yeah,
Elizabeth Diacos:yeah. Okay. So tell us a bit about what life looks like for you now, like, what's the day in the life of Ross MacKinnon look like? Is it? Yeah, rainy?
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, sounds COVID. Things look like going down to Deakin uni, and meeting up with students every day. So I'm doing my traineeship with an organization that puts staff workers on a unique campus at Deakin to support the Christian club to run. So I meet up with students and read the Bible in either triples or one to one. It might mean a couple of like big meetings for the club and helping out there and chatting with people and developing contacts. In some ways, things are quite similar to teaching. Like, I spent a lot of my day I'm opening the Bible with people and actually, like, talking to them about it. Like I might be scaffolding this concept or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So sort of like maybe a balance between tutoring sort of that kind of mentorship Maybe, yeah, Yep, absolutely.
Elizabeth Diacos:So that that actually segues really nicely into what transferable skills Did you bring out of teaching into your new role?
Ross McKinnon:Oh, yeah, I think I'm, I'm very thankful for having done my five years of teaching. Because when I like things, start stressing me out that would if I hadn't, so like, I know, walking into a meeting and not having thought about what I'm about to do, but knowing that I can just get, yeah, and like, communicate it well enough that someone might understand what I'm talking about, or getting up at the front of a meeting and doing an announcement. Like, I'm used to talking in front of people, like, they're different peoples a different audience. And I'm not that like, as a teacher, you kind of have this authority, like over the whole room, which you don't. But yeah, I just don't worry about what I'm going to say when I get up in front of people, or when I meet one to one with people in a way that I think a lot of other people do have to think about it, and stress around.
Elizabeth Diacos:Okay, so that's, that's a great, I'm just having that, obviously, is a great skill to have, what else? What else did you bring out of teaching and education?
Ross McKinnon:I think I got a lot of life skills as I did my teaching. So like, there's so many things in the workplace are transferable, right? Like the ability to not get flooded by emails and not know how to respond to them or organize your time in teaching time is quite rigid, but you do have a lot of time, which you've got a discretionary time, right? When do I do my marking? That sort of stuff. So in some ways, just life skills are highly transferable, or like working life skills.
Elizabeth Diacos:So he talks about like managing your schedule, that kind of stuff.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, managing my schedule, knowing what to put in what, how to get things done efficiently. Or you're not overworking or learning how to not just keep on working endlessly and never get the job's done. But being satisfied with saying, I've done enough for today, well, that sort of stuff.
Elizabeth Diacos:So so you, I guess you're talking about process goals rather than outcome goals. So actually being able to say I've done x hours of work towards this ultimate goal, and that's going to have to do for today because I have a life.
Ross McKinnon:Yes. Yep, I promise.
Elizabeth Diacos:Sorry, say that again.
Ross McKinnon:I probably said that lesson teaching myself. But I think in the last couple of years of teaching, develop that skill that's been really transferred.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah, yeah, that's great. I think a lot of teachers really struggle with that. That skill actually, from, from my experience talking to them all the time. And so, so Ross, on your way out... Did you have to do any other training? Or it I guess this is kind of what you're doing now? Can you tell us a little bit about what's the training aspect of this new role?
Ross McKinnon:Um, so in some ways, yeah. What, like I said, what I'm doing is my training, my traineeship, but in the long term, if I want to work, sort of at a qualified wage, working towards something equivalent to teaching, I need to have another degree, or at least what I want to pursue, I'll have another degree. So what it will look like for me is, this is my second year of a two year, kind of practical traineeship. And then I'll go to study next year.
Elizabeth Diacos:And this is like the teaching round aspect.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, that's good. This is like the two year teaching round. And then it'll be three or four years of theological study. And then after that, perhaps being in some sort of like a church pastor or something like that, or back at uni, but not in a trainee capacity, but in a qualified capacity.
Elizabeth Diacos:Right. Okay. Yeah. And so you'd be if you went back to the university, you be doing similar work, but you'd be the one mentoring the trainees and that kind of thing. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Now, in the get out of teaching group, I put a post a few days ago, asking if anyone had any questions that they wanted, answered on the podcast. And so you're my guinea pig, because this is the first time I've done the Q&A section. And so I have a question here from Michelle Kenney, who I'm sure won't my mind being named. And she asks,"How do you find a job that will match your teacher income without going back to college or university for another degree?" So I don't know if you're really qualified to answer this question, Ross... What do you think? You just said you need to go back to Uni and do another degree?
Ross McKinnon:. But in some ways...not that it's the wrong question. But do you need to have the same wage? So maybe I don't, I don't know, this situation, maybe she needs to have the same financial capacity. But I actually, I've found I'm not missing what I had in my teaching finances. I make about half as much now I think, and that will scale up. But like, I don't, I don't have a bad quality of life. I don't miss my huge salary. And maybe I want to challenge the question. Do you even need to find a job with the same Finance?
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. Wow. Okay, so, so you're so how would you? I mean, you know, you've taken a pretty big pay cut, if you're taking a 50% pay cut. That's a massive pay cut. How...how would, how do you manage that? Okay, what what's changed for you in terms of the quality of your life or the the experiences that you get to have or your, you know, outcomes like financial outcomes?
Ross McKinnon:Hmm. Well, I was I was a young single male, when I when I was getting my teaching wage, and I just wasted a lot of money. I think I've... there's this line, money sticks. And so when the more money you have, you just want you want to keep it and the more money you spend. And so I don't like... maybe I'm not going out for breakfast all the time and having smashed avo... And maybe my so I'm at the stage where I'm considering buying a house. And so I'm actually thinking, no, I probably won't buy a house in the next few years. But maybe I will ten years down the track or five years down the track or three years down the track. So I guess there are some consequences, like I don't have as much disposable income.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah.
Ross McKinnon:But I really don't think there's been huge changes. I think I just don't waste as much money as I did.
Elizabeth Diacos:Right. Okay. Well, that I think that's a thought provoking answer anyway. So hopefully, that's helpful to people listening. So if you were going to advise someone who might be considering leaving education, but they're feeling stuck right now, what advice would you give to them?
Ross McKinnon:Hmm. Well, maybe just to kind of my advice would be to realize that things seem harder before you leave than what they do after you leave. So kind of check, do a bit of a reality check on what feels to be the case, but maybe isn't the case which is really hard to assess, right? You know, if you can't tell that it's all those things that are said really I like the siren song was happening until I left. But I am right. Yeah, that will be fine guys from I guess.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. So I guess what you're saying is that you've got insight now from that, but now you're outside of that context that you just didn't have in the context. And the only way to know if it's going to be okay is to do it. And then you'll know.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, and sometimes fear of change to right. The unknown that's that's uncomfortable. And I hate change. I don't know about you, but you probably don't hate change you like change. I'm concerned with no change in life.
Elizabeth Diacos:I'm, I'm lucky because I'm married to someone who really does not like change. And that's like the, the he's the I don't know, like the the shadow side or I'm his shadow side or something. You know, the corollary so that there's always a bit of balance. He's always erring on the side of caution. I'm like, let's throw caution to the wind.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, that's not me at all, I can't relate.
Elizabeth Diacos:So you're, you don't throw caution to the wind. And yet here you are on half the salary. a newlywed. We'd like, at face value. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about how stupid that sounds, Ross.
Ross McKinnon:Yeah, that sounds stupid. Doesn't it? It doesn't feel stupid, but... I'm glad I made the change.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. Okay. So but in the eyes of the world that that seems like a really sort of reckless thing to do. Yeah, yeah, I guess so. So Ross,
Ross McKinnon:Confronting me with the truth.
Elizabeth Diacos:Oh, sorry. Well, I'm gonna ask you, though, What's life like for you now? I mean, not what you do day to day, but how does it feel?
Ross McKinnon:Oh, I'm... I love life. I really do. But part of that, I think is the knowing that I'm doing what I... like I've thought about what's most important to me. And so now I'm doing that. So, yeah, yeah, I love it. It's great. I'm pursuing what I want to be pursuing.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. So no regrets?
Ross McKinnon:No regrets.
Elizabeth Diacos:Awesome.
Ross McKinnon:Are there any I wonder if that's over-inflating the truth? I shouldn't just say that thinking No, I definitely don't regret leaving teaching. And there are things that of course, are different. And you know, I miss things. Like I see a picture of the school swimming Carnival, and all my friends dress up in a costume. And I remember how, oh, there was that time that we all dressed up in Pac Man that fits in. I was the red one. Like, you know, I? Yeah,
Elizabeth Diacos:so, the fun?
Ross McKinnon:Yeah. But they're not regrets. Like I I'm not wishing that I hadn't left teaching in the slightest.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. Okay. So Ross, just to wrap this up today. What's the legacy that you want to leave in the world.
Ross McKinnon:And this is probably part of what made me change from teaching. So I realized when I sort of balanced everything up, that what was most important to me was my Christian faith. And I wanted to be working in something where I could kind of serving at the most, if you will. So if I wanted to be orienting my whole life towards serving God, could I do that as well and teaching as what I can now? And I think that was that that was kind of that tipping point that I described, when I, when I weighed up my values, weighed up the pros and cons of leaving.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah.
Ross McKinnon:So maybe what is my legacy, maybe to live my life for God, or something like that? And I think I realized I could do that much better in something else, but wasn't teaching even though I loved teaching.
Elizabeth Diacos:Yeah. So so if I can just kind of, I guess, summarize that it sounds like you left a life that you loved in teaching. But you've now... you've now moved into creating a life for yourself that is more aligned with your, your values and your priorities and your, your purpose, which is to bring honor to God, I guess. How's that sound as a summary? Perfect. You did it much better than I did. Oh, thanks, Ross. And thank you so much for coming on the Get out of Teaching Podcast today. It's been a pleasure interviewing you.
Ross McKinnon:Thanks for having me, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Diacos:You've been listening to the Get out of Teaching Podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises with your host Elizabeth Diacos. Do you know someone else who could benefit from hearing more stories of hope and transition from teachers all around the world? Please take a moment to share this and other episodes via your podcast app. Each share helps me reach listeners just like you who can benefit from this content to get out of teaching podcast is proud to be part of the Experts on Air Podcast Network. For show notes and other resources please visit larksong.com.au/podcast