Get Out of Teaching Podcast Season 4, Episode 5, Graham Wynn (Employment expert and recruiter)

Graham Wynn – Employment expert and recruiter has regular talkback radio spots nationally on Triple M nationally and SouthernFM Community Radio, discussing all things around employment, careers, training and education

Before Superior People Recruitment,Graham’s  career was diverse and extensive. Highly regarded in Management consulting & financial roles ranging from Travel, Training, Manufacturing and Service related companies, he has worked with small  businesses through to International corporations.

Graham has recruited many talented people for a broad range of industries and sectors.. He' s committed to fully understanding the needs of the company and is the authority when it comes to sourcing the right candidate for the job. His process not only assesses skills, qualifications and experience, but also seeks the best candidate who will “fit” with the company culture to ensure longevity of the person placed in the role.

 Website: www.superiorpeople.com.au
GRAHAM'S FAVOURITE song by John Miles, link: https://youtu.be/PF6mk2Sq4yY
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Aired on August 11th 2021
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Transcript

Elizabeth Diacos  0:02  
Welcome to Season 4 of the Get Out of Teaching Podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises. This podcast is for teachers who are considering leaving Education, but feel like they have no options. I'm your host, Elizabeth Diacos. I'm a career transition coach who guides overwhelmed teachers through a 5-step process, out of Education and into a life they love. I'd like to see a world where the work of teachers is valued and respected. And the teachers have a career pathway that enables them to continue to offer value to society, beyond their work in the classroom. So in this season, we'll be speaking to other experts, who help people to change careers, as well as a few ex-teachers who forged a pathway into something new. So come along for the ride as we get out of teaching. 

Episode 5. 

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. And on today's show, I'm very pleased to be interviewing Graham Wynn from Superior People Recruitment. Thanks for coming on the show today, Graham. 

Graham Wynn  1:03  
My pleasure. 

Elizabeth Diacos  1:05  
So Graham, we were just chatting beforehand. And you said you live actually in regional Victoria and that you run this huge recruitment firm. Can you tell us a little bit about where your offices are and what you, what that looks like, what's a day in the life of?

Graham Wynn  1:21  
Sure. Started the office it would've been about 12 or 13 years ago in Melbourne, and then expanded into Sydney, Brisbane, and Auckland as well. And probably about May of last year, I was laid up for an ankle surgery. And so I was off my feet for three or four months. So basically, I had to work from home anyway and it showed me that the business could run without me being in the office all the time. I'm much more of a city, not a city person. I prefer regional. So I took the opportunity to move to Shepparton in Regional Victoria and opened an office up in Shepparton as well now, so run those offices now. And we have staff in each state that look after those offices, and it works quite effectively. Yes, I don't need to be there all the time. So COVID has shown me that which is great.

Elizabeth Diacos  2:06  
Yeah, that's amazing. And Shepparton is not a very, well, I don't know not compared to Melbourne. How many, what's the population there?

Graham Wynn  2:13  
There's about 50,000 people in Shepparton, but it's quite spread out because it is a lot of agricultural farming area. So lots of bigger blocks up here for sure. Yes, most definitely. And it's more blue collar workers and white collar workers. Definitely. But that's changing a lot with a lot of people now getting away from the city and wanting to move to regional Victoria or regional New South Wales. People are fed up with regular lockdowns and thinking, I don't want to be in a city anymore. I can work remotely, I can work from home. So it is changing the landscape quite a lot, definitely. But I, I love it up here, it's peaceful. It's quiet. It's five minutes into the city center, free pack on Saturdays when you go shopping, love it.

Elizabeth Diacos  2:53  
So that background behind you is definitely not what's actually out the window? 

Graham Wynn  2:58  
No, it would be nice, though, wouldn't it? 

Elizabeth Diacos  3:01  
It's a pretty good view. But I think that you know, the tree change is also a pretty nice way to go as well. So tell me in Shepparton, are there, like, do you do much recruiting and placing people in Shepparton?

Graham Wynn  3:15  
That business is starting to pick up quite a bit of a slow when I first came out here because of the COVID, because even though the regional wasn't locked down, that's such an impact when the city locks down on regional areas that people can't commute, can't travel, can't get supplies. So it was very quiet. But that is now starting to pick up. And mainly the financial areas, accounting areas, the legal areas, that kind of business. So we're doing some work with those at the moment. Yes, we've done a bit of work retail wise up in Shepparton as well, placing staff in retail outlets. So yeah, business is definitely picking up. It's a slow burner, but I expected that anyway.

Elizabeth Diacos  3:50  
Yeah, awesome. Okay, so as you know, I work with teachers who want to get out of teaching and into a life they love. And what a couple of things that they tried to do maybe first is get a job in a different school. And then they say, "Okay, well, I tried that. And that wasn't a very good plan," or they might do relief teaching, which is what I did on my way out. And I worked in a few different schools and you know, had a day where I found myself yelling at a five year old and just thought, "Okay". That turned out to be my last day. I just thought I just don't want to be this person. You know, I don't want to be in a situation that triggers that kind of response in me anymore. 

And so that that turned out to be my last day. So I'm now like completely out of it and deregistered and I can't go back. I thought if I did deregister that would force my hand to not go back. And so I'm really pleased with that decision. But it meant then that, well I was already working as a coach, so it was fine. I was just doing a bit of relief teaching on the side. But when someone does make that decision to leave, then they're in a position of, "Okay, now I need to look for something else. Or I need to create my own business," the way you have. So, but often people don't feel confident to start something of their own because they feel like they don't have experience in any other sector except for Education. 

So what are the kinds of things they need to be thinking about if they're going to put themselves on the job market? So these are professionals, they're intelligent. They've got a whole swathe of transferable skills, but they might feel like they have no options, or that they couldn't possibly work in a different sector other than Education. What would you say to them?

Graham Wynn  5:39  
There are certainly challenges when you're moving from that Education sector into more what we class as the private sector that the way people work is very, very different. I think what they need to understand is that when you're moving from Education into private sector, the structure of your day is very, very different. From a teaching point of view, you have a structure, you know, when your classes are you have structure, in the private sector, that structure has gone, it doesn't exist as much. In the large corporations, it does but the small and medium business, no. Structure, yes, this is my main function, but you need to be far more flexible, that things will change daily on a regular basis. 

And that's something they need to be aware of. So when they're looking for work elsewhere, they've got to think to themselves, "Okay, that kind of business is the kind of business where I will feel, firstly, comfortable with the fact that it's a business I can actually really get involved with and get passionate about," I think passion's a word that gets used a lot. I think you find a business that you're passionate about, you can make it work. That's the first thing. The second thing is, their transferrable skills are huge, communication, people skills, and the fact they are very organized, they have to follow processes. Those are things which lots of businesses do like. 

So it's about looking at businesses where clearly processes are involved. You tend to find very small business with should I say less than 10 people. They do fly by the seat of their pants quite a bit. And so teachers moving into that kind of environment will struggle cause there is no structure, there is no organization, there's no procedures, there's no policies, there's very little documentation. They need to aim for that business, probably, I would say, somewhere between 20 and a hundred people if possible. Cause that would be not too large for them. But also the right kind of business where they're based on structure. But they're also relying more on type of person they're employing not necessarily their experience background-wise. 

And we're finding a lot more employees in that size of business look for people rather than experience. If you fit, if you've got the right attitude, the right work ethic, we can train you. That's what they're looking for now, if it's a more technical kind of role, you must have experiences no ifs, buts, or maybes. But to move into a generic admin, customer service, that kind of role. They're really looking for a culture fit, if you're like, someone who fits with our environment, that's what they're after. Because that can't be taught. So I think that the teachers need to look at, "Okay, how do I make my personality come across in an interview, so that the person interviewing me realizes I have a personality or character that works with their environment?" They can Google companies do research, check out the people on LinkedIn who work there, so they can get a feel for the kind of business just by doing research. 

Elizabeth Diacos  8:32  
Okay. 

Graham Wynn  8:33  
That needs to happen before you get to that interview stage.

Elizabeth Diacos  8:35  
So you're talking about, like maybe accounting firms, or like, what are the kinds of businesses that are in that, that are that size, that are the kind of places where someone with an Education background might go into?

Graham Wynn  8:47  
The whole range of businesses. Moving companies, manufacturing companies, accounting, professional services, there's a lot in that area, but you don't need to be an engineer or have worked in manufacturing to work in those businesses, because quite often, they'll have generic admin or reception or customer service, or even order processing people who just really want some good people skills, good telephone skills, who can actually take information and deal with information when they get us there's lots of options for them. 

Elizabeth Diacos  9:16  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  9:17  
We've found quite a challenge also for people who come from, and we're using teaching example right now, is that when they move into the private sector, they need to also be aware the salaries may not be what they've been used to. And that happens for anybody going through a career change. The salaries may sometimes drop, because you're not paid for what your experiences are. You're paid for what the job is. Now, 10 years ago, you could get extra money based on experience, it doesn't, it doesn't happen anymore. It's like "this is the job, whether you're 20 years old, 40 years old, or 60 years old, that is the salary." and companies are moving more to that model of the salary is for the job, not what you bring to us. 

And I think They need to understand that the market has changed a lot on salaries. And when you go through a career change, you may have to take a bit of financial hits. And one example I can go over, just pre-COVID we placed, what, we're looking for a graduate accountant, basically, and the salary was $40,000, something like that. And we had somebody apply for a business sales manager from national company. And you've got to retrain to be an accountant. Brilliant, but he was in his late 40s, early 50s. And he was saying, well, I need a $200,000 salary, because that's what I'm used to. And that's my lifestyle. 

But I said, but you're competing with 20 year old's, they'll take $40,000. So that's..

Elizabeth Diacos  10:41  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  10:41  
You've got to be aware that when you have this career change, you may take a financial hit, and there's no easy way around it. It's just a fact of life that.

Elizabeth Diacos  10:50  
Yeah, yeah. So it's something to be aware of, isn't it? And I do always ask people, when they're on their way out, do you have a buffer? Like, have you got a bit of savings? And do you have backup if something goes wrong, or you just don't walk into your next job straight away? You know, have you got someone else who's gonna support you? And a lot of the teachers I talk to are single women in their 50s. And they don't have either of those things. And so it is really challenging to think about walking out out of Education and into something else when there might be, you know, $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 pay cut to be cut? Yeah.

Graham Wynn  11:28  
It hurts a lot. Yeah. And also think when they're applying for work, we tend to find people from that sort of professional background, their resumes can be very, very lengthy and wordy. 

Elizabeth Diacos  11:41  
Okay. 

Graham Wynn  11:42  
And when you're applying for work, no, it has to be short, sharp, to the points. No weasel words, no fancy terminology, make the assumption, this is not meant to be detrimental, make the assumption the person reading your resume knows nothing. 

Elizabeth Diacos  11:58  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  11:58  
Make it really, really simple. Because if a person reading your resume doesn't understand it, they'll just move on to the next one. 

Elizabeth Diacos  12:05  
Yeah. 

Graham Wynn  12:06  
So we find a lot of people from that professional background, make their resumes too wordy, too technical sometimes. And they use a lot of abbreviations as well. And if you're in the Education sector, that's great. Everyone knows what that is. But if you're not in that sector, no one knows what it is. And if they're applying through recruitment agencies, generalize people have not worked in the teaching sector. So you need to make that resume really simple. That person reading it, fully understands, what did you do and what you can bring to a job. So not just your experience in that job, but what practical experience you can bring, what people skills you can bring into, really make that obvious in a resume.

Elizabeth Diacos  12:49  
Right. Oh, that's great advice. So I, when I'm talking to, you know, my clients who are trying to get out of teaching, one thing I say to them, because in Education, you talk about, like, what you're what you're learning to do on a particular day. And then what's the context? So, you know, I'm making a coil pot out of clay, which I was an art teacher. So making a coil pot pot. So I could say I'm learning to make a coil pot, but actually, what I'm learning to do is rolling and joining techniques in the context of the coil pot. So I say to the teachers using that example, because it's the best one I can think of, is one of the skills like what's the equivalent of the joining technique? 

Because the context is the school, we already know that. What's the actual skill? So is it you know, telephone conversations with with stakeholders, or, you know, which could be the parents or other staff members or whoever? And then, you know, writing, writing emails that make sense and spelling and I don't know what, tell me, what would you say for stuff, say communication skills? What would you write that would capture the attention of someone looking at a resume?

Graham Wynn  14:00  
I think probably one thing would stand up straightaway, would be the ability to deal with conflict, the ability to deal with a wide range of different people from different backgrounds. They're really strong communication skills. So you want to highlight that you're not just dealing with the children, but it's the parents, educators, stakeholders. So I think really highlight you're dealing with a very, very wide range of people. You're not just teaching 10 year old's, 12 year old or 15 year old's, there's far more to it than that. So I think that really needs to be highlighted. And there'll be conflict all the time coming up in that job, I'm quite sure about that.

Elizabeth Diacos  14:00  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  14:02  
I think ighlight those areas as well. I think unfortunately, people can undersell themselves, quite a lot, and not realize what they're capable of doing. And we've seen that quite often. You really got to look at what do I do, and I just say, "Extract that further out." You're not just talking to schoolchildren, you're talking to a wide range of people. So highlight that in your resume. And really put that in, and if you've been involved with any committees, work groups, organized events, functions, highlight that as well, because that's a skill that not everybody can do. So highlight those areas as well don't just say, I was a teacher, it doesn't say anything.

Elizabeth Diacos  15:18  
Yeah. And if you're not in the sector, and you've had an experience as a student yourself, you know, if you're, say you're the hiring manager, you've got, you be a kid in a school. And you know what it's like to be a kid in a school, but you don't realize all the behind the scenes stuffs that go towards making that experience, what it was, that there's always paperwork, and, you know, testing and data collection and a whole lot of other stuff that happens that the student doesn't realize, and then they grow up to be an adult. And they think they know what a teacher does. They don't they only see one facet of that. So yeah, that's great advice.

Graham Wynn  15:58  
Recruitment agencies, and there are a lot of us around, something like over 85% of people under 26, who work in recruitment agencies, they don't have a lot of practical work experience. So they really are square peg round hole quite often. So they'll get a vacancy from the client, and they'll treat it like a tick box system. And when your resume comes in, does that tick up in that box, and if it doesn't, then they will look at you. So when you're applying for a job, look really closely at the criteria, what people are looking for, and make sure you put that in your resume. And part of the reason for that is a lot of the larger agencies use an automated system now. They don't even look at resumes. 

So they've got a database, you apply, or you Seek, as an example, you apply through Seek, that resume automatically goes into a database. And if there's enough key words in your resume that match the job vacancy, it spits it out the other end, and then they look at it.

Elizabeth Diacos  16:59  
Right. 

Graham Wynn  16:59  
So you can't put in one resume for every job, you've got to really look and what you'll find, where your secret is the last job more obviously, you'll find that use keywords more than once normally in a job. And so those key words are the ones they really focus on. So when you're applying for it, look for those key words, and make sure you put them either in your cover letter or your resume, otherwise, the consultant doesn't even see your resume.

Elizabeth Diacos  17:26  
Right? So you're saying that, because it's going to run through a computer and say there's a keyword like communication? Would that be good? 

Graham Wynn  17:34  
Absolutely. Right. 

Elizabeth Diacos  17:35  
Okay.

Graham Wynn  17:35  
Whatever keywords you see in that job ad, make sure you put them in your resume.

Elizabeth Diacos  17:56  
Right.

Graham Wynn  17:40  
Because that's what this was, it looks for matching keywords. If they're not there, then the no one sees your resume. And that's been a change in the recruitment industry over the last few years, a lot go into this automated system, and a lot of job seekers aren't aware of, that's what happens. 

Elizabeth Diacos  17:56  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  17:56  
Smaller agencies and ourselves, we look at every resume that comes in, my thought process is, you may have applied for this job, which you may not be suited to. But I've got this job you might be suited to. That's the mindset we have. It's a longer process, it takes more time. The big agencies though, they wanted to get them through as quickly as possible. So they use AI to really work out does this resume match the job, and if not, no one looks at it. So that's a real risk with the way that automated system works. We call it lazy recruitment. Because you're relying on a computer to tell you somebody's fits the criteria. 

So if that's what's happening, you're applying through job boards, really look at keywords and make sure you put those in your resume otherwise, no one sees it. And with regards to resume, there's certain things that, if you some people leave information off resumes, because they're scared of being discriminated against, it actually goes the other way around. If you leave information off, people discriminate against you because I use the word discrimination lightly. It's more about if I don't know certain things, I don't have time to ring up and ask you to fill in the blanks. So by leaving information off your resume, it actually is detrimental to your chances of getting a job, and the informational I'm talking about is a suburb where you live, put it on. 

I mean, for instance, if you're in Melbourne to give an example, if you're applying for a job in say, Werribee, way out western suburbs and you live in Frankston not going to happen. 

Elizabeth Diacos  19:58  
Yep. 

Graham Wynn  19:28  
But if you don't put on where you live. Again, the automated system won't find your resume because they will put in "Find me somebody in Werribee or within 20 kilometers." It won't find you. So leaving that suburb, don't get a full address but a summary is really important. And the other thing people leave off if there's large gaps in your resume and the genuine reasons for large gaps. You could have been having a family, overseas holiday, caring for somebody, whatever. Put on why there's a large gap. 

Elizabeth Diacos  19:57  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  19:58  
The genuine reason, put it on because otherwise. And this is the example given to me once by an employer. He said, "They've got a two year gap, they could have been in prison for all we know."

Elizabeth Diacos  20:06  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  20:07  
That was. 

Elizabeth Diacos  20:08  
Yes. 

Graham Wynn  20:09  
And not that's a murder or there's a problem. But if we don't know, we can't afford to guess.

Elizabeth Diacos  20:14  
Yes.

Graham Wynn  20:15  
Put as much information as possible. And the other one that's important is dates. Somebody will put on a resume, I was at this place from 2019 to 2020. Now, that could be two weeks or two years. 

Elizabeth Diacos  20:26  
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Graham Wynn  20:28  
Proper dates January 2019 to April 2020. People doing the reviewing a resume and get a much clearer picture of stability. How much work you did there, how long you were there for, it matters. Those little things like that really matter. So by people leaving information off, it actually works against them. For as much information as possible, then if you still get an interview, everything's aboveboard. There's nothing hidden. 

Elizabeth Diacos  20:56  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  20:56  
You know that the employer is still happy with what you've said.

Elizabeth Diacos  21:00  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. And I guess I want to ask you about age. I stopped putting my age on my resume, but they could still see when I did my first degree, which could...

Graham Wynn  21:14  
If we've got a brain, we can work out roughly how old you are. 

Elizabeth Diacos  21:17  
Yeah. So it wasn't a very a good way to hide it.

Graham Wynn  21:20  
Every recruiter, every employer, checks out social media, as well as as a point of referral, referencing. So we'll always go check out your LinkedIn profile, Facebook profiles, every recruiter, every employer does it. So we can get a clearer picture. Because quite often on your on your Facebook page, if you have one, you put a year you're born, or you'll see pictures of you holding your child who was 18 years old, "Okay, she's not 20" you can work it out. 

Elizabeth Diacos  21:44  
Or your grandchild.

Graham Wynn  21:45  
Well yeah, you can go and do it, exactly right. So we can, generally if we've got a brain, we can work out rough age wise. And age is an interesting thing. And I hate to use word discrimination because it brings up bad meanings. But basically, the way ageism works, it's not about the number. It doesn't matter how old you are. It's about experience. And I've got one client, for instance, who he's got an open plan office with about six people in they're all females all over 40. And he says, "I don't want a 20 year old, it just won't work." Vice versa, I got an a plan office of people all under 25, putting a 50 year old in there, it just doesn't work. 

And the other issue on age is that some employers think the more mature you are, the slower you are picking up new computer skills. That's the real challenge. So the age is not because you're older. It's what comes with that. And in teaching, the perception would be you're not using a lot of computers generally in your day to day work. So people would think therefore, how to date are your computer skills. 

Elizabeth Diacos  22:57  
Oh, really? Okay. So that's really not true. Especially not now.

Graham Wynn  23:01  
It's about perception. 

Elizabeth Diacos  23:02  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  23:02  
I would therefore back to resume a skill set, if you're in the Education sector and applying for work and really highlight computers and technology you're experienced in, skilled in, or used to using, because a lot of people perceive from that area you don't, you don't use computers all the time.

Elizabeth Diacos  23:20  
Yeah. 

Graham Wynn  23:21  
The real perception about that. And I think people in banks has a very similar perception. They only use the banking computer system, nothing else.

Elizabeth Diacos  23:30  
Right.

Graham Wynn  23:30  
For that, that computer knowledge is non transferable. So I think really highlight computer technology you're using because the perception is that they don't use it very much.

Elizabeth Diacos  23:40  
Right. Yeah. What we choose to see now with COVID has, we're, the world's opened up because of technology. So teachers have had to adapt really quickly.

Graham Wynn  23:49  
Yup. That would certainly sound like computer skills and technology. Definitely. 

Elizabeth Diacos  23:54  
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. And what what are the things you think like, you know, with your kind of general knowledge about what a teacher does? What do you think are the skills that they need to be considering to highlight?

Graham Wynn  24:07  
I say, organization, definitely. 

Elizabeth Diacos  24:09  
Yep.

Graham Wynn  24:10  
I would think, probably diligence would be something also you're very strong at, because of marking paperwork, etc, making sure the plans are done right. So I think that's something else to really highlight as well, their communication skills and dealing with conflict skills, for sure. And I think also, there is an element of yes, your, again, perception wise, the working day is not as long as normal people's working day there is that perception. So I think highlighting the fact you do things outside of the standard work or school hours, highlight that as well. So people know, you're used to working beyond five o'clock or you're used to doing stuff before nine o'clock. 

Really highlight that as well because again, perception wise, people think teachers only work 9 to 3:30 or something like that. So again, it's about reaching that perception. And perception is something, it's very hard to deal with, unless you really highlighted and emphasize the point, this is what I do. This is what I do outside of school hours as well. Really highlight those areas so people know you're not locked into just a school day.

Elizabeth Diacos  25:13  
Yeah, yeah, got it. Okay. That's really helpful. Actually, I wouldn't have even thought about that. I went out to dinner last night with some of my ex-teacher buddies, because one of them just retired, and, and one of them was saying, she's got a 7:15 AM meeting, then she's got her day, then there's an after school meeting as well. So she's working from 7:15 till around 4:30 every, on that that particular day of the week, and then she's still got her other preparation and planning for the following day. Her lunch breaks are taken up with yard duty. So she's got this horrendous day. I said, "that sounds like a great day to check ICICI." She said, No, I don't want to do that. Because then I'll be so far behind. It'll make it even more stressful. So yeah, it's pretty challenging.

Graham Wynn  26:04  
That is perception how you perceive the teaching industry and one example I'll use right now, my background, it looks wonderful. And people see that background, I think, "Oh, what a magnificent office you've got," it's a virtual background, my background behind these walls and what have you. But perception wise, what a difference it makes. And that perception is what people have, whether we like it or not, we all form judgments, we all form opinions. We're all perceptions. And you need to somehow get around those. And so therefore, the more you can highlight that you do, which is beyond what people perceive your job to be, the better.

That's great advice. Is there anything else you want to share with us before we wrap this up, Graham?

Look, I would one thing I would say also, if you see a job advert that says cover letter, make sure you do one.

Elizabeth Diacos  26:57  
Right.

Graham Wynn  26:57  
A lot of companies use that "please send in a cover letter" as a bit of a pre-screening tool, because a lot of people just send resumes off just just willy nilly. If it says, for a cover letter, do it, it may not have much in there. But at least the recruiter knows you've taken five minutes to read and put a cover letter in there. Also be very conscious of what's worded and, as we've found some employers getting quite sneaky recently what they're doing, they're putting in a question in the job ad, something which can be completely irrelevant, "Please tell us your favorite color." And so basically, that says, you read the ad, clearly, and you responded to it. 

And that's part of the issue around a lot of the unemployed people now have to apply for so many job vacancies, and they just send their resumes off just for the hell of it, basically, just to get them we'll get the same unemployed person sending 20 resumes for 20 different jobs, none that suited to, but they can tick the box and get their benefits. So a lot of recruiters employers now putting these little questions in the job ad, just to make sure you definitely read it, and you replied to it. And therefore it's a genuine application. So really it's-

Elizabeth Diacos  28:09  
It is a way of filtering out the genuine applicants that want the job.

Graham Wynn  28:15  
Because you can get two to 400 resumes for any particular job quite easily. So if you'd find a way of actually filtering some of those out, we will do that. So really make sure if you read the ad, and there's a question in there, or even in the job ad, they sometimes will put criteria. Make sure you cover that criteria in your cover letter. A cover letter is not just simply, "I'm interested in this job", that cover letter should address criteria. 

Elizabeth Diacos  28:41  
Yeah.

Graham Wynn  28:41  
The resume, your skills, and experience, your cover letter should address criteria, which means you've again read the job ad properly. And it's a genuine application.

So if there were say five criteria, how long would you give to each one?

Look in your cover letter, I'll give two or three lines to each one you cover more than one page. And your resume should be never more than three or four pages maximum, no more than that. We will get a resume - front page says resume, second page says person's name and address, third page says whether it's a CV. I usually go on and on. So really keep it short and sharp. And basic things, check spellings, really big - because we will we will ignore resumes generally with bad spelling because there's no excuse. With Google you shouldn't make spelling mistakes and resumes. The other risk, the people make a lot of mistakes as I will get a cover letter which is a template. And it will say dear Mary, no, I'm not called Mary. So if you're using templates make sure you change the templates before you send it off for a job because as soon as I get the "Dear Mary" cover letter delete. Yeah, if you can't get that right.

And should people call if there's a contact person for a particular job? Is it wise to call the person beforehand and have a chat about the position or..?

If there's a phone number, yes. If there's no phone number, no. 

Elizabeth Diacos  30:06  
Right, okay. 

Graham Wynn  30:07  
Because if there's a phone number, then clearly that's fine. No phone number, no, then you'll have to apply through the normal system. Recruiters and employers, otherwise get bombarded with phone calls and they'll just move on. They don't want that. If you have a first interview, follow up phone call, always fine. No problem at all with that. But certainly, if there's no phone number on a job ad, don't ring. A lot of people try that, they'll jump onto LinkedIn or jump onto the company's website and try and get contact numbers. You won't get past that first base. If there's no contact number, they do not want you to call, so don't. 

Right. All right. Excellent advice. Thank you. And Graham, just before we wind this up, I just want to ask you, what's your favorite song and why? 

Okay, the song is a song called Music by an artist called John Miles, I think it was in mid to late 1970s. It's quite a big production number it builds up and builds up. And I find that relates quite a lot of business. That I started from nothing, I had to build layers and layers and layers so identify that, but music is a passion of mine. I've got music playing all the time, wide range of musics. And this particular song talks about music is my first love it will be by about my last love. And that probably sums me up music is what I love.

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you so much. And Graham, thank you very much for coming on the Get Out of Teaching Podcast today. 

You're very welcome. 

Elizabeth Diacos  31:31  
You've been listening to the Get Out of Teaching Podcast presented by Larksong Enterprises with your host Elizabeth Diacos. Do you know someone else who could benefit from hearing more stories of hope and transition from teachers all around the world? Please take a moment to share this and other episodes via your podcast app. Each share helps me reach listeners just like you who can benefit from this content. The Get Out of Teaching Podcast is proud to be part of the Experts On Air Podcast Network. For show notes and other resources please visit larksong.com.au/podcast

Transcribed by https://otter.ai