Anxiety in Motherhood

Anxiety can feel debilitating, but there are ways to address it. To explore the complexities of managing mental health in motherhood, we chat with Dr. Lauren Cook, a psychologist, speaker, and author of “Generation Anxiety.”

Throughout this conversation, Dr. Lauren sheds light on her personal struggles with a phobia and teaches us how to calmly approach our daily anxieties, and give ourselves grace. 

As a creator herself on TikTok, we discuss the platform's pros and cons when it comes to mental health treatment. Hint: Don't use it to diagnose yourself. (By the way, her content is awesome.)

Listen for valuable insight on how to live with anxiety, not run away from it. Now put in your headphones and breathe in, breathe out.

HERE ARE SOME KEY POINTS IN THIS EPISODE:
25:17 Overcoming Emetophobia 
35:23 Coping with Anxiety
36:19 Empowerment and Positive Thinking
38:41 Supporting Anxiety

LINKS MENTIONED:
Connect with Dr. Lauren Cook!
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlaurencook/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.laurencook/
TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.laurencook
Website: https://www.drlaurencook.com/

Dr. Lauren’s long-awaited book is finally here! Order Generation Anxiety here: https://www.drlaurencook.com/generation-anxiety

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

It's okay to feel anxious. It's not about waiting for our anxiety to go away, because it never will. And so I say that, to be real about it, and at the same time say it's totally worth it too.

Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome to Working Mom Hour. Oh fuck, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Hi everyone, welcome to Working Mom Hour. I'm Erica and I'm Madeline.

Speaker 3: 0:29

We're working moms, business partners and friends with kids at different ages and stages.

Speaker 2: 0:33

We know moms tend to get more done in an hour than the average human, yet are often misunderstood and underappreciated in the workplace.

Speaker 3: 0:41

We are here to shine a light on the Working Mom experience, to help ourselves and others step into and advocate for the superpower. We are not experts. We're two women who have been there and are still there kids, clients and all.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Join us as we cultivate more joy in working motherhood. At the corner of calm and chaos, I'm just being alone. I'm on your side.

Speaker 4: 1:05

I tell you, it's my time to rise up, Live the life I'm proud of. No, you better go home.

Speaker 2: 1:15

I tell you it's my time to rise up. Welcome to Working Mom Hour. We have licensed clinical psychologist and TikTok therapist, Dr Lauren Cook, with us today talking about anxiety, mental wellness in the workplace and more. She is the founder of Hardship Psychological Services, specializing in generalized anxiety, phobias, social anxiety and OCD. With a rich academic background from institutions like UCLA and Pepperdine University, Dr Lauren is a force in the field of mental health. She's the brains behind the transformative and the main your story, mental health group training curriculum, which has empowered thousands to foster their own well-being and support those around them. Dr Lauren is also an accomplished author. Her latest book, titled Generation Anxiety, delves into the challenges faced by millennials and Gen Z. This is certainly a topic we can all benefit from understanding. More Help us. Welcome, Dr Lauren Cook. It's my time to rise up. With a laugh, I'm louder than no. You better go, Dr Lauren.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited we get to spend some time together.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Yes, All right, let's jump right in and ask why are you coining this generation, generation anxiety?

Speaker 1: 2:49

A lot of people have asked that recently. Right, because it's a bold title of the book Generation Anxiety, and some people say, well, wasn't it worse in other generations? World War II? Right, I will say, though, regardless of that, we are seeing that young adults today are more anxious than ever before, both in prevalence and severity. It's a horizontal, longitudinal critical scope. We're seeing, really, there's a lot of reasons for why that is stress in America. Survey from American Psychological Association is saying that 75% of young adults feel unsafe in the United States every single day, and you know what they say number one fear is take a guess.

Speaker 3: 3:32

Take a guess Across the board, not just for men or for women. Death COVID.

Speaker 1: 3:39

It's actually gun violence, oh wow, yeah, that lands.

Speaker 2: 3:45

It does land and I have tweens and it is probably something they think about weekly and they're drills in school. We had fire drills in school. They're having lockdown drills. Their schools are accommodating Active shooter drills. Yeah, their schools are putting into place special doors so when my daughter goes to the bathroom and the door is shut, the door automatically locks and there's special locks on the doors in her school. So, and that should have been obvious, but that was not obvious to me until you said it- Well, but I think it speaks to generationally.

Speaker 1: 4:27

I'm a millennial and I remember when Columbine happened when I was in elementary school and that was cool. What is this? But it wasn't happening at the same frequency. Now are young adults. They're growing up in a world where everybody is a potential threat, which I so want to help change that. But unfortunately, so many places grocery stores, movie theaters, all these places hard things have happened and our kids have seen that and so you just see this heightened anxiety. Everything kind of feels on edge all the time. That's going to affect our brains and bodies.

Speaker 3: 5:04

That makes a lot of sense, a lot of sense. I know you work with a lot of millennial clients who are moms. What are you specifically seeing when it comes to moms and anxiety right now?

Speaker 1: 5:17

So that does tie in with one thing for sure, like feeling this nervousness when you send your kid out in the world is my kiddo going to be safe today? But we're finally starting to see a lot more conversation about postpartum anxiety. There's been so much talk for years about postpartum depression, which is great, but actually the research shows postpartum anxiety is more common than depression. Even I'm a new mom myself we were just talking before we hit record. I've got a four-month old.

Speaker 1: 5:45

You know parenthood, there's so many elements that you can't control, and anxiety at its core is feeling out of control, wanting control, and a lot of the work you do with parents is really starting to find that dance of like, ok, like, where can I take appropriate action and where do I have to accept that maybe I don't have control with this and actually maybe a good thing for my kid to make a mistake at school or for them to skin their knee you know there's a great book out there about the blessings of a skin knee but we want to control that and so we don't always give our kids the opportunity to see what happens when things don't go exactly right according to plan, even though those situations could be so, so good for our kids.

Speaker 3: 6:29

I remember the best advice a pediatrician gave me during that infant phase when I was asking all the questions and trying to Google just so much time spent on Google trying to figure out what's normal and he's like you just have to endure for a while and I was like, okay, we're just going to endure, and that took away the element of needing to control and know everything, because it is such an unknown, especially with your first, but really with each child, because they're all so different. Every kid is so different.

Speaker 1: 7:01

Nats, I needed that advice for today, so thank you. Good, I mean watch that Endure. I love it. Yes.

Speaker 2: 7:09

So you've built up quite a following on TikTok as a psychologist influencer. What is it like towing the line of providing education to your TikTok followers versus therapeutic advice?

Speaker 1: 7:28

We're really entering pretty new space with that. I mean, you're so long the advice has been like almost don't go on social media, right? Self-disclosure is a bad thing in my industry. That being said, one thing that I think is really exciting about social media and mental health is merging that we're seeing in a way is making it so much more accessible for people to learn about these things. It destigmatizes it, yes, it adds an element of humor, right? I think therapy has had such a seriousness and a heaviness to it and it needs that, and, at the same time, I think we're showing nuance, that there can be lightness to the healing experience too, so I'm really excited about that. That being said, I think we still have to be careful, because a lot of people can watch a 20-second video on ADHD signs and symptoms and be like, yes, I now have ADHD, right, and so I really have to give all the caveats to people as their cautious consumer content.

Speaker 3: 8:34

Oh, that's so cool. We had an interesting digital mental health client a year or so ago we work in PR and our day jobs and he was talking about the opportunity we have in digital spaces that our society. It's so ingrained in us to pick up our phones and to scroll. That is not necessarily a behavior that we'll be able to change. That's become hardwired, and so if we can make the spaces or the apps we're accessing or whatever, healthier and just you can use that same behavior but access healthier spaces, that could be such a profound solution or opportunity when it comes to social media or even just digital spaces. So I love what you're doing there. How are you seeing mental health challenges present on Tic Tac or in social spaces specifically?

Speaker 1: 9:31

I think what I have seen for a lot of folks coming out of the pandemic and I think social media contributes to this in a way is social anxiety has gone through the roof for folks, and really that's because our social skills are like a muscle If we don't use it we start to really lose that strength. In the same way, if you don't go to the gym for six months or a year, you're going to lose that muscular strength. And I think sometimes social media can be this way where we feel like we're getting that socialization, but it's not the same thing for our brains. Our brains need that human real time. Best case scenarios face to face contact.

Speaker 1: 10:10

This would probably be the second option where we're interacting in real time. And third option is this passive consuming of the content. So this is something that millennials and Gen Z we really need more of is this socialization, and people call it a loneliness epidemic. That's happening right now and I do agree with that. People don't feel like they have best friends, people they can turn to. They have memes all day but they don't necessarily have someone that they could have to our brunch with.

Speaker 3: 10:40

I feel that even in just simple day to day interactions, my cup is filled when I can see people at like pick up and drop off and things like that. I was at a back to school night last night but I realized last night there was a woman who she was like oh, you're Joel's mom. My son and Joel are such buddies. He's always talking about Joel and I was like, oh, that's so cool. But then she continued to talk and she wanted to talk for like 20 minutes and I both loved it and was terrified, like when I realized she wasn't stopping the engaging with me.

Speaker 3: 11:18

I was like, oh my gosh, okay, we're doing this. I had this like moment of like wow, this is not a three minute conversation like I have every day, and like this is going to stretch me and I was like, okay, stay present, stay calm. Like I liked her, like I wanted to connect and that was such an interesting moment for me and like a reflection of like here I am wanting social connection and running from it at the same time. And I love that you said it's like a muscle, because I am feeling that right now.

Speaker 2: 11:49

And I think this definitely became an exacerbated problem because of the pandemic. For sure, when we couldn't see anyone at all, we became used to that. But for moms you know, I remember when I became a mom it really you go inward, you have to, you're in survival mode. So, seeing people when you're at work, your interactions are limited because you only have so much time to get the work done, go to pick up, get your kid from daycare. So I feel like it becomes you're probably experiencing this now with a four month old that it's just really hard to get out of the house to do a two hour brunch with friends.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Oh, yeah, well, and you know, we know this, you know from motherhood like the brain physically changes from the experience, in good ways, but also in ways that are like how do I put my shoes off today? You know, and I don't want to say that in a way that is intimidating or scary for people necessarily, because a lot of the you know the conversations that I have is, you know, with people who are very anxious about becoming parents right, I was one myself. I put it off for a long, long time, and so I don't necessarily want people to hear that and think see, another reason like this is too hard. Yes, one thing I'm really passionate about is embrace the heart. It's okay to feel anxious. It's not about waiting for our anxiety to go away, because it never will. There's always going to be something that we've got to tackle, and so I say that to be real about it, and at the same time say it's totally worth it to.

Speaker 3: 13:31

Oh, it's totally worth it. You're right. You're right, okay. So, like putting on our marketing hat, have you seen your TikTok efforts pay off in your business? Out of curiosity, is it like driving clients I know it has to be driving credibility, or maybe both.

Speaker 1: 13:47

Yes, so most of my clients from my private practice come from.

Speaker 2: 13:52

TikTok or Wow that's crazy. That's amazing.

Speaker 3: 13:55

So cool. Good for you.

Speaker 1: 13:58

You know, as a true millennial, I actually feel like I'm more engaged with my Instagram community, if I'm honest, than TikTok. There's a lot of debate about TikTok, about like the app has changed a lot over the last few years. You know what I mean In full transparency. I kind of have a love-hate relationship with TikTok, yeah, but it is a big part of my business and it was a big part of me getting the book deal, to be honest with you, and so you know it shows that we've got to have flexibility to find different ways to access potential clients and people who could connect with our content. Because, yeah, gen Z, they're on TikTok.

Speaker 3: 14:36

Yeah, was there like one video that blew up for you, or how did you gain your following there?

Speaker 1: 14:43

was. I have it pinned on the top of my feed so people can see. Got it, dr Lauren Cook. But it was one video that I did on attachment to an ABBA song. I love ABBA and a little bit of dancing. Right, I'm not above doing like a little dance and talking about anxious attachment and I'm so open about like what's worked, what hasn't worked. I'm no joke. I hired like a 19-year-old TikTok specialist to help me get started Because I'm like I don't know how to.

Speaker 1: 15:15

TikTok. What is this? When she let me the ropes, when she showed me all kind of the insider tips, it was there Good for you?

Speaker 2: 15:25

That's incredible.

Speaker 4: 15:26

I am curious how do you recommend that? So, let's say, someone goes on TikTok and sees what you referenced before like an ADD video and they're like, wait, I definitely have this, or they're starting to think about their behaviors. I know from one of my friends who's a therapist. She said that happens all the time in her practice and she has to gently tell people that they do not have it and to stop listening to TikTok. How do you recommend that folks who are going on TikTok to be diagnosed properly, vet the creator, and how do you establish your credibility as a creator too?

Speaker 1: 16:06

First and foremost, like what is someone's education? I'm very open about my credentials and a lot of people don't even know like I have a PsyD, for example. A lot of people who aren't in the field of psychology are like what's a PsyD? It's a doctorate of psychology, but we're more clinically focused, for example, than a PhD, or you tend to be doing more research based work. So even that that's like a video right there for TikTok, right To help teach people how to different types of providers online.

Speaker 1: 16:35

And I always say, like TikTok social media, it's like an emmuse bouche, it's like a little appage for the mental health. It's not the main entree. And if you are getting like a feeling watching a video, like, oh, I think I have that, that's your tip off of like, okay, let's work with a provider in real time, and so that's why I always like to make videos for people. How do you access therapy? Right, I'm always sharing my biology today, for example, because so many people don't know how to find providers. You know that's important and really talking about. If you feel like you are meeting diagnostic criteria, work with a provider to actually see if, in fact, you do meet that diagnostic criteria and then get the help to actually work through those symptoms right.

Speaker 4: 17:22

Great tips Do you?

Speaker 3: 17:23

work with adults, or do you also work with kids? Just adults, okay.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Yeah, I work with adults and I work with teens. Typically, 13 is the lowest that I'll go. Sometimes I'll work with somebody who may be in their fifties, but the majority of my practice is like 18 to 35, I would say that kind of season of life.

Speaker 2: 17:44

We know, with working with our business, find Merilee focuses on healthcare clients and healthcare innovation and we know there is a pretty tragic shortage of professionals available to work with children, teens and adults. You know my daughter. It was recommended for anxiety for her to talk to someone and there was a nine months waiting list to just get a consultation through our pediatric practice. What advice do you have for folks that are watching these videos, know they need help and then they get something like that as a response. Where do they go?

Speaker 1: 18:27

So here's one of my favorite tips to share that a lot of people don't know about and is such a great way to access services quickly and cost effectively. Any doctoral training program in the country will offer a community clinic, because those clinicians are in training and so you can work with some doctoral student. Now they're not licensed but they have to be supervised by someone who's licensed. Our clinic, for example. I went to Pepperdine out here in Los Angeles. We would be offering therapy for clients five, $10 a session, right. You would be working with a client for like three years during that time, because it takes us like five years to get our doctorate, so we're there in the clinics for a long time. So that can always be a helpful resource for people.

Speaker 1: 19:14

Go to the American Psychological Association, look up what training centers in your community, and one good thing that has come out of the pandemic I will say is that a lot of us are providing more telehealth services. I think what you're going to see in the next few years it's really exciting Something called PsyPact, and before and this is kind of how it currently operates you only can provide services to the state you're licensed in, right, so I'm only a certified it's clients in California, but we are starting to see a cross partnership where my license could stand, where I could treat somebody in Louisiana, for example. So I'm super excited to see that happen because I think it's going to make resources a lot more available to people.

Speaker 2: 19:59

What's the timeframe for that happening?

Speaker 1: 20:03

Well, psypact, I want to say they have at least 35 states that are all joined in Some states, like my state of California, new York you have some that are kind of holding out a little bit, but for people who are in certain states it's already happening. Check out the PsyPact website. I know I'm going to be looking into joining as well as soon as I can, because some people in different states it's really hard to find providers, whereas here in California, for example, there may be a lot more providers in Los Angeles versus Tulsa, oklahoma, for example, exactly.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Interesting you shared. You have an interesting personal story about anxiety and motherhood. Are you open to sharing it with us today?

Speaker 1: 20:51

Oh yeah, I'm a pretty open. Book is the therapist. I think it's important to be a real person first. Love that. I'm very open about my experience with the metaphobia which is a phobia of vomit Really fun to deal with. But I wrote a lot about it in the book and it's been fascinating to me how many people have come out and said I have really struggled with this too.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Phobias are actually the most common diagnosis of any mental health condition. Really, yes, isn't that interesting? It could be a broad range, it could be spiders, it could be heights, but for people who do struggle with phobias, it can be very debilitating. I'm working with somebody right now with a blood phobia, for example. You think about all the times in life that we interact with, even our veins, for example. For me, I was finding for years I was putting off becoming a parent because I was so afraid of. Well, what is it going to be like being pregnant? Am I going to have hyperemesis, where I'm throwing up every day? Potentially babies, kids throw up unexpectedly, right yeah. So I did a lot of what's called explosion response prevention work. It's something I practice a lot as a clinician. Literally, the treatment was watching videos of people vomit.

Speaker 1: 22:12

Oh my gosh, Wow Looking at pictures all this stuff, the scene from Pitch Perfect, really good time. Oh gosh.

Speaker 3: 22:23

I'm trying to think of what that was.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Did you end up throwing up watching? Was that a visceral response for you?

Speaker 1: 22:30

No, no, but actually this was really interesting. I do write about this in the book. Some I did have a provider at one point recommend that I make myself throw up, and that, I think, crossed a line. We don't want to get into a place of making ourselves vomit unless the body actually needs to do that, right. So quite frankly, that felt like a little self-harmie to me and that's why, as somebody who's gone through it myself, it's so important that we take a trauma-informed approach, because for most people there is a trauma connection to a phobia or fear. For me, my mom had stage 3 breast cancer when I was two years old. She was very sick through a lot of my childhood and I would often be physically removed from my house, so I wouldn't see my mom being so sick. Now it's so fascinating right? Consciously I have no memory of this but your body knows.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Right, and so that's why I've always had this panic response. And my mom is healthy today. She is loving that's amazing, I will add that. But I'm super happy to say that the treatment for a metaphobia it did work. I was able to handle it during my pregnancy. I'm not going to tell you that it's like a total cakewalk for me. You won't see me being in a hospital anytime soon handing out barf bags. I can handle it, and that's where I was able to get pregnant and now love being a mom.

Speaker 1: 24:03

So I share that with people because I don't want for folks their anxiety to call the shots in their life like it almost did on mine.

Speaker 3: 24:12

Okay, that was an amazing quote. I don't want people's anxiety to call the shots in life.

Speaker 2: 24:17

I imagine it does for most people. I mean fear and anxiety stop me from doing quite a bit. You know, I don't think I'm alone in that. And I will say back to TikTok I'm not a huge TikToker but my 13 year old is, so she accesses it through my phone and we will like look through it together and my sister sends me TikToks and I have gotten to a place where I'm like, oh, I'm not the only one out there that's going through this, like somebody made this a funny thing right. Somebody took this anxiety and childhood trauma and made it funny and relatable. But there are other people out there that are going through what I'm also going through and even though I don't have an in-person community that's helping me through it, I will say TikTok has been a lighthearted relief that I'm not the only one suffering through some of the things I'm suffering through.

Speaker 1: 25:15

It normalizes so much and that's what's so cool about it. I think that was happening on a very small scale in therapy. Therapists would validate people's experience where they would say, oh my gosh, like I'm not the only one, but TikTok has like blown that upwards, Like that's why you see so many comments like you're in my head or I feel seen right, Because you realize like wow, like we all like think back to when we farted in second grade and everyone laughed.

Speaker 2: 25:44

It's true, and you're still thinking about it 30 years later there you go Amazing, so what? Steps did you take or are you taking to mitigate and put supports in place for your own maternal mental health?

Speaker 1: 26:01

Well, you know, it's been interesting to see. I think, especially in our Westernized society, we can be very individualistic, right, and I really felt that everybody kept saying bring in support, bring in support. And my husband and I were kind of like, no, we want to do this ourselves and in a way it was nice for us to just have like our little cocoon of a family. But it has really made me see like it's a strength to ask for help and you know, I've really leaned on my mom in that way. I feel very privileged in that like my mom is able to help. That's not something that everybody has, but being able to like bring her in and like see the generational support has been like really cool to see.

Speaker 1: 26:44

I also joined a mommy and me group. You know one thing we have here in town there's this amazing place called the Family Room and they offer just these classes. We all in our particular class, we literally had a May or June baby, so we are like in the exact same season of light. It's been so cool to like have friendships with women who are going through it at the same time. We can be so real with each other. I'm just, I'm super grateful for that. That has been like a game changer for me.

Speaker 3: 27:12

That is so cool. I feel like the more that we show what we're going through, the more we'll find those people going through the same thing. Like I'm drawn to the women at pickup who are like, who got there at the wrong time or, like, you know, forgot shoes or you know whatever it is. It just sounds like a topical level, but I love that you can find that group of people right there in the same spot as you.

Speaker 1: 27:41

Me too, and you know we do just have to be willing to be on comfy Like I think that's something a crave comfort more and more and I really try and push myself and I try and push my clients too of like embrace the discomfort, like I remember the first mommy and me class we were like introducing ourselves. I'm like I want to puke. Like it can be so nerve wracking meeting new people that a lot of us are like I'm just not going to bother with it. But I try and put myself out there because almost every time I ended and I'm like I'm glad that I did that, you know.

Speaker 3: 28:17

Yes, For those of us wanting to calm anxiety in general. Do you have any daily tips for us and for listeners?

Speaker 1: 28:27

So I'm super fascinated about the research with the GutBrain Access connection and we write a lot about this in generation anxiety. I think we're going to see more and more come out on this about how the foods we eat even alcohol like how this all impacts our gut and in turn impacts our experience of anxiety. It's just fascinating to see, like, how inflammation in the body makes people feel physically sick, right, I have so many anxious clients. They throw up first thing in the morning or they feel super nauseous in the morning. Well and behold, cortisol is highest in the morning, right.

Speaker 1: 29:02

And so just looking at that, you know, not that we want to get to the place of developing what's called orthorexia, which isn't a formal diagnosis, but you can get very obsessive with, like, clean eating, that kind of thing. We don't want to veer so far off that course into that course, but just thinking about what are the foods I'm putting into my body, maybe getting curious about how do I feel the next day after I drink alcohol, for example. And I will also say this exercise and moving our bodies is huge for anxiety. There was a study that came out of Australia recently saying that they found it was actually more effective than therapy or medications. Wow, great for my field. But I will say like, exercise is huge for the brain and the body, especially because anxiety is so physical.

Speaker 3: 29:53

Moving the body, even if it's 20 minute walk, is very, very helpful Do you use that as a tool in your work with your clients, like prescribing movement or like working with a nutritionist, or something I do.

Speaker 1: 30:08

I do so we always rule out anything medically that could be going on, because there's a lot of times somebody's thyroid, for example, could be blood work and help blood work all day, and I will credit my naturopath all day for healing my panic disorder that I was struggling with. So, yeah, we have to take a whole body approach, it's not just from the neck up.

Speaker 3: 30:32

Yeah, I have one more follow-up question on that. I have been following like Dr Umanidu I can't quite think of her name and I'm trying to think of the name of her book your brain on food. Yeah, this is your brain on food and I have like the inflammation code, or so. I'm interested in all of that because I was experiencing challenges with all of that. Are there other resources that you love on that brain body connection that you could recommend here?

Speaker 1: 31:06

I just did an IG live the other day with Dr Nicole Kane, c-a-i-n. That woman knows her stuff Dang, but I was blown away from our conversation, so follow her account. She has so many recommendations and I will also share the name of my naturopath, dr Sarah Norris. She shares great information too, but I'm a huge believer in that. I really am, and looking at what supplements could be helpful for you is very helpful. Look also into base. Base is a great service where you can get your blood work done like a sample at home. So if you're not going to go into like a quest or something like that, you can find out about your estrogen levels, your testosterone levels. That's been a really cool, interesting space that's emerging too.

Speaker 2: 31:54

We have a naturopath doctor who's actually out in LA and we did a test similar. What it showed was some of the foods that naturally, you're following the nutritionists and they're like eat chicken and salmon, and you're eating all of those things. You're not seeing a change, but in fact, your unique makeup, you're becoming inflamed eating those healthy foods. I found that to be fascinating that even though the healthy foods are marketed, they could also still be making you not feel great Like your unique microbiome.

Speaker 3: 32:33

Exactly, I did something too, and it was like pineapple and potatoes aren't great for you.

Speaker 2: 32:38

And who would?

Speaker 1: 32:38

have thought Something really random. Yes, yeah it's fascinating, really fascinating.

Speaker 2: 32:44

Tell us more about your phrase empowered acceptance.

Speaker 1: 32:49

This is a cornerstone of the book and it's really an approach to our anxiety. So many of us, when we're anxious, we want to avoid, we want to run away from the reality of our lives. Classic line you will hear people say is like I just need a little more time or I'm not ready yet. And so this really applies on a personal level, but also on a societal level too, when we feel inundated and overwhelmed with the news, for example. So first we have to accept what's going on in our lives. We can't say I'm just going to ignore this. And we also can't ignore what's going on in the world, things like climate change, for example. This is really scaring people and we have to actually look at it. We can't just keep pushing the ball down the road. We need to be empowered in our approach.

Speaker 1: 33:38

I am the behaviorist. As a psychologist, I really like getting people to take action. Our human brains, they skew so negative they're often not our best friend, and so that's why I'm not a huge advocate of just solely positive thinking, because we can't think our way into just solving these problems. We have to actually take action to solve the problems. So that's why I say let's be empowered, whether it's taking action in our own life for our mental health concerns. We're struggling with and taking action for these problems that we're seeing on a societal level. That's why I have so much respect for Gen Z. They do not stand by silently on the sidelines, they speak up and believe in, and I think that's something that millennials Gen X, gen Alpha, are youngest we can all get on board with that too.

Speaker 2: 34:30

I have a lot of respect for this next generation and how they're asking. I'm sort of like all right, everybody wants this four day work week Me too. Let's make this happen for all of us. We want the power. We don't.

Speaker 1: 34:45

There are upcoming leaders, you know and I think it's awesome how brave they are to speak up. I want them to hold on to that, and I think we can all jump on to that too. You know, finding our voices and not let anxiety hold us back from speaking out, from what we believe in.

Speaker 3: 35:02

When we witness others in our lives experiencing anxiety, do you have any tips for how best to support them? I love this question.

Speaker 1: 35:11

Yeah, I wrote a whole chapter in the book about this because a lot of people can have really good intentions with wanting to support anxiety, but sometimes actually can exacerbate it. So a lot of times with anxiety, people get these checking behaviors right, whether it's in a relationship do you really love me, but do you really love me right? Or they're wanting to check your phone. I have this with a lot of the parents that I work with. They like meticulously track their child's location, but the child happens to be 25.

Speaker 1: 35:43

Teaching people how to handle their own distress of like ooh, I have to accept not only can I not control things in my eye, like can't control your life too, and I have to like loosen that grip and trust that you will allow me to help as I can, and I also have to like accept that you have your own free will.

Speaker 1: 36:04

That is really hard for people to swallow that pill and yet it's a distress tolerance skill that we need to embrace. We also have to be mindful of when am I enabling anxiety for someone right? Like if I'm telling someone it's all going to be okay, it's all going to be fine, don't worry. Sometimes it's not always okay. Sometimes it's not right when we get people calls for the assurances, it feels so good in the moment for that, but it really is a bucket with a hole in it. We always are going to need more and so we've got to teach people how to manage and tolerate their own anxiety and not necessarily lean on that reassurance from other people, because that creates resentment and a relationship over time and exhaustion over time. That's the work, right there.

Speaker 3: 36:52

I feel like our kids are our biggest teachers in that regard, like helping working with ourselves to get to a place where we're comfortable with the unknown and then in turn modeling that and helping our children get comfortable with the unknown, with all the like friend dynamics and everything in play in sort of like school age life. So I'm experiencing all of that right now.

Speaker 1: 37:22

It's so hard to sit with right, like it's easier to just jump in and take care of the situation, but then like the kiddo doesn't get to have their own learning experience of that Distress tolerance skills all around. Like encouraging all of us to get comfortable, being uncomfortable and showing that we can handle that.

Speaker 3: 37:41

Yeah, and it's robbing. Like I feel that if I were to have jumped in in a situation to tell my child, like don't be friends with that person or it's not gonna serve you, like I think that would have just created tension in our relationship, in our family unit, whereas taking more of like the approach of just being there to like listen and talk through it and like equip her to be open to various outcomes, then I'm finding that my seven year old is like able to discern and is distancing herself from that and had I stepped in, like I probably did her whole life I don't even know, I'm not even aware of it I wouldn't have given her the opportunity to learn that on her own, despite my anxiety about it. So it can be a gift I'm finding.

Speaker 1: 38:34

That's mom goals right there. I love that oh.

Speaker 2: 38:38

It's hard, man, it's hard. All right, you're triggering a question for me now, mads. On the personal side. So I have a 13 year old middle schooler and I am trying my very best to just sit in the suck with her. It's brutal. Middle school is not fun middle school girls their hormones are imploding all at the exact same time, and I think they're not. As I'm sitting in the suck with her and I'm just listening to her sort of map out what's being said to her and what's hurting her feelings, I'm realizing probably she's translating what's coming out of her friend's mouths in a certain way, like she has a listening for it, and I'm trying to help her sort of tune into that listening without letting my own middle school trauma come into play as well. How do you, when you're working with teenage girls specifically, what is your recommendation for parents and moms when they come home and they're complaining or someone has said something pretty vicious to them and your gut reaction is to call their mom and be like, okay, they're no longer hanging out anymore?

Speaker 1: 39:55

Yeah, great question, it's really really hard, and I think the first thing is to validate the experience. We're not necessarily validating the content, because we are hearing these things are hearsay at the same time. This is how they feel, and so validating the feeling and not gaslighting them of like well, do you really feel that way? Or like that's not that big of a deal, you shouldn't be upset. If they're upset, then they're upset, and let's validate that.

Speaker 1: 40:27

I will say, sometimes it's helpful to challenge cognitions that we have about these things, lean into empathy a little bit of like what do you think could be going on in that other person's head? What could be happening for them to maybe make a comment like that, being a scientist to the mind a little bit, because we can hop on that negativity train and then, once we're on it, it can be very hard to get off it. So really starting to like look at all sides of the coin and then the last piece, like, let's say, your kiddo is being bullied or somebody has, like really said something hurtful, not OK. We want to teach our kids healthy, assertive communication, not passive, aggressive, where then they do their own thing back, not passive, where they don't end up for themselves, and also not aggressive either. It's that assertive, appropriate boundary setting. I can be respectful to you and at the same time, I am choosing not to have this relationship anymore.

Speaker 1: 41:28

I think we have really I won't say a disservice, but I think a gap that we are not providing our kiddos with is how to handle friendship breakups. We talk about breakups like with a partner in high school, things like that. Oh, it's so hard. But friendship breakups like that is where a lot of the trauma lies, and so we've got to, I think, normalize that more. That that happens it's a part of growing up and it's not comfy, and, at the same time, not every friendship that we have from elementary school is going to last for our lives, and that's OK.

Speaker 2: 42:04

Yeah, that's great advice, really really great advice, thank you For these 13-year-olds and teenagers. And I remember feeling this too your world was going to end If you were not friends with this one girl anymore. She was going to take all of your friends away and you were going to be alone. So you just took it, you dealt with it and one of the things that I said to Ellie, my daughter, which you are reinforcing I was like does your friend know that what she's saying is impacting how you feel about her? And she's like no, and I was like so you're stewing over here and she has no idea. She could just think that this is her sense of humor and you're OK with that. So, thank you, that was really great, really great advice.

Speaker 4: 42:54

Eric, I wanted to say to that I feel like, especially getting into your older 20s, you're like there's so many friendships going up down or just like on pause for a second, and the best piece of advice I heard recently was that some friends are faucets and some are drains and I might have said this on the podcast before and it's like you're the one in the shower and you need to figure it out, like it's not. You know which ones are, you leave having a conversation with them and you feel uplifted and energized and happy and which ones you leave and you're like I feel weird on the inside. So that could be helpful, so good. Then the second thing is that, going back to what you're saying, Dr Cook, about dealing with discomfort, is there's a theory I read that is every friend has a fatal flaw.

Speaker 4: 43:41

So, like I have one for sure, like everyone has a fatal flaw, like your partner has a fatal flaw, there's something that they do that you don't love. But I think it's awesome up to us to say, ok, my friend, she has a real tendency to gossip, but I'm, but you know what? But she does and that's OK, and like that is how she expresses herself sometimes, and I think it's reflecting on if you can live with it and you don't feel like it's worth bringing up to better your friendship, then drop it. Bring it up.

Speaker 1: 44:15

That was so many gemstones there. I'm like I'm going to so good.

Speaker 3: 44:19

I know so good.

Speaker 4: 44:22

Oh my gosh, Sometimes you're like because I love alone. And sometimes I'm like I keep ruminating about things and I'm like, oh, these lovely ideas are popping up and then going on, tiktok, then I find these gemstones, pieces of advice, and then I'm like, ok, now I can reiterate them, but it's all passing it along.

Speaker 3: 44:41

From a friendship perspective. Something that also has helped me is being in the classroom. I don't volunteer often, I do it every other week for one hour, but when my child comes home and is so and so and so and so and so said, I can't sit with them at lunch repeatedly. And then I go into the classroom and I see, oh, these are seven-year-olds, they're still passing each other and making a funny face, they're just little kids, so that I can sort of have it in perspective. And it almost brought some levity. Not that those things aren't happening and I still want to be there for her in the experience, but I do think I was doing what you experienced, erica, of going back to my middle school feelings when I'm realizing they're so young, they're seven, and so it was helpful to witness the dynamic firsthand. If there are volunteer opportunities to sort of see what's actually happening, great advice too.

Speaker 2: 45:42

Looking at the time. Let's wrap this up by asking you our final question what is one lesson you've learned during your motherhood journey or a tip that you could share with our listeners?

Speaker 1: 45:55

I'm only four months in, so I will say I am a total novice at this point. I am by no means an expert and I don't think we ever reach expert level with her in TATRA. I will say, leaning into the both end, right In Therapy Week, we call this the dialectic of it's not all happy and it's not all sad and bad, like embracing the highs and the lows together. I am a Disney fan. I will disclose that I love Disney, but I love the movie Inside Out and how they show by the end of the movie. You see she has joy and sadness and fear all held in one experience, right, and I feel like that's what parenthood is. It's all the emotions and not shitting ourselves of like I should feel happy about this or I shouldn't feel sad. We feel all of it and that's totally okay. So I will say too don't let your fear stop you from whatever it is that you're wanting to do, whether that's thinking about having a kiddo or trying a new experience with your kiddo. Embrace the fear, it's okay.

Speaker 3: 47:03

So good. It was such a pleasure speaking with you today, Dr Lauren. Really, you can find Dr Lauren's latest book Generation Anxiety, as well as her infamous TikTok channel in our show notes, and thank you so much again for being here today. This was really fun.

Speaker 1: 47:21

Thank you so much, really fun Love. Dark Combo. Thank you for having me. I've been running from nine to five, been biting my tongue for all this time.

Speaker 3: 47:50

won't let anyone cut me short. I was thinking this was the way to go and you put up your puppet show. I say cheers, do like no, I'll be no good man's wife. I'll be no good man's wife.

Speaker 4: 48:24

I'll be no good man's wife.

Speaker 3: 48:34

I'll be no good man's wife.