Authentic Friendships with Dr. Miriam Kirmayer

Having trouble keeping up with the group chat? We’re all guilty of it. When life gets busy, friendships often take a back seat. But in reality, these connections are critical to our well-being, especially as working moms. 

To help us understand the science behind social connections, we brought back one of our favorite guests, Dr. Miriam Kirmayer, clinical psychologist and friendship expert.

Together, we discover how to open ourselves up to finding, broadening, or deepening friendships, all while staying vulnerable and authentic. We also discuss tricky dynamics, from friendship breakups to natural ups and downs.

What you’ll get out of this episode:

• Strategies for expanding and deepening existing friendships.
• How to tune into your authentic motivations for building new friendships and learn practical steps for initiating connections.
• Understand when to address negative dynamics in friendships and how to navigate them with compassion and honesty.
• Ways to sustain friendships beyond the shared context of children, fostering deeper connections based on mutual interests and shared experiences.
• Tangible steps to rekindle friendships after periods of absence or busy seasons.

0:00 - Introduction
1:03 - Discussion on the importance of friendships for emotional and physical well-being.
4:17 - Tips for making friends authentically.
8:45 - The power of expressing a desire for friendship directly and authentically.
13:04 - Strategies for deepening existing friendships without emotionally dumping.
15:18 - Broadening and deepening existing friendships.
19:09 - Understanding and communicating boundaries in friendships.
20:33 - Recognizing when a friendship is negatively impacting your energy.
28:19 - Maintaining friendships beyond the connection through children.
30:56 - Empowering adult friendships and strategies for bridging gaps in communication during busy periods.
38:38 - Reconnecting with old friends.
42:04 - Bold acts of friendship.
45:43 - Embracing changing friendships.
48:59 - Guiding children in friendship choices.
55:31 - Course announcement: "Confidently Connected"

Connect with Dr. Miriam Kirmayer:

Linkedin: Dr. Miriam Kirmayer

Instagram: @miriamkirmayer

Website: https://miriamkirmayer.com

Sign Up For Miriam’s Friendship Course: Confidently Connected

Book Miriam to Speak: Keynote Speaking

Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode, and kindly review the podcast on Apple Podcasts so we can reach more working moms.

We always want to hear your thoughts, concerns, questions or guest suggestions – email workingmomhour@212comm.com.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We don't always have to reinvent ourselves or our social networks in order to experience greater belonging and connection, and sometimes the best way to build new friendships is actually just to deepen your connections.

Speaker 2: 0:10

Welcome to Working Mom Out. Oh fuck, hi everyone. Welcome to Working Mom.

Speaker 3: 0:24

Out. I'm Erica and I'm Madeline. We're Working Mom's business partners and friends with kids at different ages and stages.

Speaker 2: 0:31

We know moms tend to get more done in an hour than the average human, yet are often misunderstood and underappreciated in the workplace.

Speaker 3: 0:39

We are here to shine a light on the Working Mom experience, to help ourselves and others step into and advocate for the superpower. We are not experts. We're two women who have been there and are still there.

Speaker 2: 0:50

kids, clients and all Join us as we cultivate more joy in working motherhood at the corner of calm and chaos.

Speaker 4: 1:13

We're so excited to bring back Dr Miriam Kermayer to walk us through all things friendships, maintaining them, shifts and breakups, and so much more. Dr Miriam is a clinical psychologist, leading friendship expert and one of the most influential speakers on human connection and social support. With over a decade of research on the science of friendship, she is revolutionizing the way we show up for, encourage and connect with each other. Dr Miriam has been an expert source to media like Call Her Daddy, the Today Show, time Magazine and so many others. We just adore her and this conversation Help us say hello to Dr Miriam Kermayer.

Speaker 5: 2:04

Welcome, miriam, to Working Mom Hour. It's so good to see you, so good to see all of you. Thanks for having me. Today we are talking friendships with you, so let's dive in. To begin, why are friendships so critical to our emotional and physical well-being?

Speaker 1: 2:22

Yeah, it's a big question, right? Well, one of the things that I often say is that there are very few, if any, areas of our lives that our friendships do not touch and impact. And so when we look at physical health, for example, we see that feeling socially connected to the people around us that includes our friends, but that also includes our local community, our family that there's something about that experience of social connection that influences our health, and we see that when we're lacking social connection, we are more likely to experience everything from the common cold to chronic health conditions like cardiovascular difficulties, cancer, stroke. So it really runs the gamut. And in terms of emotional health and well-being, the same is true that when we feel socially disconnected, we see that we're more likely to experience anxiety or depression or substance use difficulties. We're more likely to have difficulty coping with those life experiences if we're already struggling. And so our friendships are just so closely connected with our well-being, all facets of health.

Speaker 1: 3:29

They're both protective but also additive, and this is the piece that I always like to add into the conversation is that it's not just about mitigating risk or disease. It really is a matter of cultivating ease, that when we feel that sense of connection, of being working to our friends, to our communities, we're happier, we're healthier, we live longer and we also see greater well-being in other dimensions. So we are more likely to succeed at our careers, we're more likely to experience professional growth, we're more likely to be promoted. There's some really interesting work showing that when we have friends at work, we're less likely to experience workplace accidents or sick days, and so you really start to get a sense of just how connected our friendships are to our lives, and that's part of the reason why I love talking about this incessantly. We really underestimate just how important those relationships are.

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, I think every single guest at some level that we have had on since we've been doing this for years now has talked about the importance of community and I know all of us have moved to different locations even since the last time we've chatted and it's difficult to make friends and connections, especially when you're in a new location where folks have already sort of established, especially in mom groups. If we talk specifically about mom groups and I can talk specifically about my experience the mom groups have sort of already formed kids. They met through kids when they were young. My kids are, you know, preteen age. So if someone is new to a job or a neighborhood or adjusting to a new life stage, how would you suggest they go about making friends authentically?

Speaker 1: 5:19

Authentically. I love that addition to the question. To me, a very helpful starting point is to tune into your why. What is your authentic why? Why is it that you want to build new friends?

Speaker 1: 5:35

My answer to that question isn't necessarily your answer to that question. For some people, it will really be a matter of I have certain activities and experiences that are essential to who I am and how I want to live my life. I'm a runner, and I really want that experience to be a little bit more of a connected experience, and so I'm looking for new friends so that I can make that activity more connection filled. For someone else it might be. I'm going through a very difficult time in my life and I could really use those close, intimate relationships and friendships in order to feel more emotionally supported. Or I'm starting a new business venture and I really am looking for mentors or frienders to support me in that process, and so if you can start by accessing that authentic motivation, then you're much more likely to go on to build those authentic connections, because it gives you a little bit of a compass of, well, where do I look and what is my next step. So it's interesting. The best way to build outward new connections is to turn inward and then from there there are all sorts of things that you can do, like communicating your interests, so leveraging your network, letting the people around you know that you are looking to meet new friends.

Speaker 1: 6:41

That is something that a lot of people find incredibly vulnerable for all sorts of reasons that we can get into, but we do that with dating. We let our friends know. You know what I think? I'm at a point in my life where I would love to meet someone and I want to find a life partner.

Speaker 1: 6:55

And why is it that when it comes to platonic connections, that just feels a little bit more uncomfortable, vulnerable, shameful. Even so, that can be a really helpful starting point, especially if we're moving cities, like you said, and don't know anyone there, can you reach out to somebody who might know someone there who can connect you, and that person might not be your one and only best friend, but it might be just enough connection to help surf that initial period and get you integrated. They might be able to expand your network by introducing you to new people there. So, really, starting with who do I know and who can they connect me with? And, of course, that piece of well, if you want activity friends, can you pursue those specific types of activities and put yourself in social situations where you will meet those people who share those common interests, because we know that that similarity piece is very much the root of most friendships.

Speaker 5: 7:45

I'm feeling like ever since we had our initial conversation with you, which was probably two years ago. At that point I have been tuned in more to like just having an awareness around friendships, what I want, what I don't want, what I need, what I don't need. I've even gone so far as to like talk with my therapist about certain friendships and then like better understand when to let them go or if there's someone I want to pursue, like being honest with myself about that. And in the past year I've decided that I want to like not hold in my love, like we live one life or my desires like and be you know, have the courage to express how I'm feeling about a person, or that I want to get to know them better, just like not having any shame or head trash around that, just like pursue.

Speaker 5: 8:40

And what I found is that when I say that to women like you have three kids, you play pickleball, let's be friends. Like I want to be friends with you, I want to get to know you better that it's met with like joy and enthusiasm More often than not, because I'm finding that Many of us are feeling this way I know Erica said that like almost every one of our guests have either talked about the importance of community, community and connection, or expressed loneliness. It's almost magnetic when someone is able to express that, and can you imagine when someone would Express that to you, how Like powerful that would feel that someone wants to get to know you, wants to get you know, develop a friendship, without sort of being passive about it, just being direct about it.

Speaker 1: 9:28

I love that there's so there's so much power in those moments. Firstly, we like people who we think like us, and so, yeah, or you can choose you.

Speaker 1: 9:39

Yeah, yeah, okay, choose you the more you can communicate. Hey, I like you, I'm. I'm choosing to express that and I'm choosing to stay connected to you. People respond to that, and we also tend to underestimate the extent to which other people like us. And so when you make clear, you're doing someone a very big courtesy and it ends up being a catalyst for connection.

Speaker 1: 10:00

It's also, though, it touches a little bit on what we just spoke about earlier in terms of that shame that can sometimes accompany those feelings of Loneliness or that longing for connection. And so when you say to somebody I'd love to be friends, I'm looking, you know, I'm looking to meet new people and make new friends and I'm loving our early conversations. That also normalizes those feelings of disconnection and that desire for belonging that we all have, above and beyond Just that one moment in time. And I also think there's this added piece of what a wonderful modeling of open, transparent, authentic communication, and we all benefit from doing that more in our relationships. But we also all benefit from seeing other people Take the lead and go first. That idea of going first in relationships is so scary. To build a new connection, yeah you pointed out two things.

Speaker 2: 10:51

I'm in a women's group and yesterday the question was posed what has been a historical challenge for you in developing and maintaining Relytion ships with other women and across the board, mads, everyone said I'm afraid other women won't like me, I'm afraid I don't belong, I'm afraid I'm viewed as competition. And everybody said once somebody breaks the ice, then it's a lot easier. But we're all playing chicken with one another because we all have those same fears, underlying fears, which is very Interesting it's fascinating, it's one of those, it's interesting, it's a universal experience.

Speaker 1: 11:44

So many of the themes they heard that you got there.

Speaker 1: 11:45

That fear of rejection is Something that we can all relate to. It is, it is part of being human and in many ways it's it's inevitable. We will all experience rejection at some point in our lives and in some of our relationships, and whether we've had a past history of rejection or not, the potential fear is very, very Helpable. And so how do you, on the one hand, normalize it that this is a common fear, this is an inevitable experience, but not assume that just because it's possible, it's probable. How do you make sure that that doesn't hold you back from taking the steps to be brave and be vulnerable and be disclosing and push through that discomfort so that you can find the people who are choosing you and who are likewise interested? And there are no easy answers to here. I think it really just involves a tremendous amount of courage and and and Practice, frankly, not only practice in terms of the, the social skills element of building friends, but practice that helps you to learn that you can tolerate those moments of rejection or those experiences where interests aren't aligned.

Speaker 5: 12:59

In a recent LinkedIn post. We loved that you mentioned this is a year of growing close friendships without putting pressure on ourselves to make more connections. Once you've established a solid friendship connection, what is the best way to deepen the bond and how do you do it without emotionally dumping?

Speaker 1: 13:25

Thank you for bringing that up, because let me just say, one of the common themes that I'll hear when I'm working with clients or giving a workshop or just frankly speaking to friends on this topic, is when we get in touch with our felt need for greater connection, for belonging. Very often we can feel as though the only way to meet that need is to build new friendships. And while there are some times where that is very true and we want to make sure that we're honoring our ever evolving needs and building new connections that allow us to meet those needs, we don't always have to reinvent ourselves or our social networks in order to experience greater belonging and connection, and sometimes the best way to build new friendships is actually just to deepen your connections. And so, when you think about that idea well, how do I build more meaningful, close friendships with the people who are already in my life? The two themes that often come up here are the idea of broadening and deepening, and so that broadening piece is really I tend to use the language of expanding your friendship focus.

Speaker 1: 14:21

So how can you integrate this connection into more areas of your life If this is a colleague at work that you do have a friendship with, because we know there are tremendous benefits to having those friendships at work.

Speaker 1: 14:34

Can you involve that person in a little bit more of your life, whether that means opening up about some of the life experiences that you have outside of work, or whether that means actually taking that connection outside of work and grabbing lunch at a local restaurant or going for a walk on the weekend, or getting together one evening to chat over a meal, it doesn't matter what it is, but the more you can integrate that relationship in different settings in your life, that really is a way of expanding your friendship focus.

Speaker 1: 15:01

There's also the deepening piece, which is how do you go a little bit deeper in your conversations that you're having? How do you work to be a little bit more vulnerable and open about what you are really feeling and your perspectives, and how do you ask better questions that are going to elicit that from the other person? How do you give the type of support and validation that we all really need? So those are just the two categories that a lot of these strategies tend to fall under, but I think it's helpful to keep them in mind, because that idea of both broadening and deepening really is at the heart of closer relationships.

Speaker 5: 15:30

One thing I struggle with in the moment of fear or anxiety, in going deeper with someone, is desire to make everyone feel okay and not want to be like a burden. And so I have these moments where I'm like I'd like to talk to someone about this and then I think of so and so, but the time difference is probably not a good time of day, and then I think of so and so and I talk myself out of it and I feel like if I can get to a place where, like, I can trust myself to do what I need and then also trust that they will do what they need, like, stop trying to. Yeah, you're nodding.

Speaker 1: 16:17

This is resonating so deeply, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, again, it's a matter of working through a lot of those fears or beliefs, but, frankly, misconceptions that we have about opening up to people.

Speaker 5: 16:29

Stories in our mind, exactly.

Speaker 1: 16:31

Changing the narrative, because the narrative tends to be if I open up, I will be seen as a burden, or if it's also true, if I ask more meaningful questions, that that will be experienced as intrusive or prying. And again, very often it's in fact quite the opposite, that the more we open up about the areas of our lives that are less than perfect and the more we can open up about what's really challenging, but also what's really precious and exciting and the things that we like our secret dreams. All of those discussions usually create closeness. People generally have a good idea of is this the right person, the right time, the right topic? And so you just want to honor that and go slowly, let that information out over time so that the other person has a chance to digest it and you can gauge their interest and reciprocity, but also so that you give yourself a chance to have that practice of sharing and having that be received and using that to challenge this narrative that you should not do that. And the other piece of what you said is so crucial to that conversations are co created.

Speaker 1: 17:37

We don't need to take full responsibility for the success, in whatever form that takes, of a conversation If we are looking to create more meaningful exchanges and have more vulnerable conversations. That is not something we can do alone. We can also rely on the other person to likewise open up or to receive that information in a supportive, healthy way. If we are looking to share something but we are worried about overstepping or sharing too much or sharing too much too quickly, we want to take this as a process that we can do, but we also can trust and rely on that other person to set those boundaries, and that is why that boundary discussion is equally as important as this discussion about how do you be a little more vulnerable? So how do we let someone know when we're not in the right place to receive that we're not ready to talk about that topic, we're not in the right place to offer the type of support that's needed in that one moment?

Speaker 1: 18:33

This is one of my favorite things to speak about lately and it's been a hot topic at a lot of events that I've spoken at this idea of connected support. How do you provide the type of support that connects to what the other person needs to hear in that moment? Are they looking for advice or guidance or emotional support, and how do you offer the type of connected support that's going to lead to a closer connection between the two of you and really leverage the quality of that connection, and the only way to do that is to have this reciprocal approach to the conversation. Both people really need to be aware of how to be more disclosing and how to be more boundary.

Speaker 2: 19:13

How do you gauge that? Is it just as simple as asking Are you looking for advice, are you looking for a hug? I imagine most of us have just an innate fixer in us, just especially as moms. We just want to fix and sometimes it's hard to know. And it's an honor, I have to say, mads, when you reach out and when friends reach out with problems going on or challenges or hey, my daughter just got this part in the play. To include me in that way is so intimate and such an honor. So thank you for doing that. Please keep doing that. How do you gauge what is the appropriate response and what are they looking for? Have you set those boundaries without being like my name's Erica and these are my boundaries yeah, boundaries too.

Speaker 5: 20:10

Do you want to be friends like within those boundaries? Check this box here if that works for you.

Speaker 1: 20:17

Check yes or no, there's so much richness in what you just shared there, and I think what we get wrong about boundaries is that we assume those conversations have to be stale or robotic, like we're kind of mocking. Here are my boundaries do you accept, yes or no, signed here and continue this conversation, and, in fact, the discussion about boundaries can also be very laden with vulnerability. I'm having a hard time with this right now, and so here's what I'm thinking I need in order to continue this conversation. And what's that bringing up in you when I share that? We can talk about all of that relational piece in a moment. So that's just a bit of an aside. But your question about how do you do that? Yes, to a large extent, it is about offering choice and asking is this a moment where you can receive this information? Are you ready to have this conversation If you're looking to be more vulnerable and share something, checking in and asking, is this a moment where you're looking for advice or you just want the listening ear, offering choice in terms of how you respond? That is one of the most important steps that we can take.

Speaker 1: 21:24

This idea of narratives that we spoke about earlier. We can also use that to our advantage. So, using language like storytelling that we've been talking about in terms of some of the beliefs that hold us back from having those conversations, we can again return to those stories and be very transparent about them. The story that I'm telling myself is that you're not in a position to hear this right now. Is that true? Is that actually what's coming up for you, or is that just something I'm telling myself that's holding me back? The story that I'm telling myself is that this is a problem you really want fixed and that it would be helpful to have a solution. Is that what you're looking for, or did I get that wrong? Just being really transparent about what we're feeling and using that as a lead in to those more vulnerable conversations, that ends up being a lot more helpful than a lot of the reassurance seeking behaviors that some of us tend to engage in.

Speaker 1: 22:13

Are you sure you really want to have this conversation, or I don't want to burden you? And really what we're looking for in those moments is for somebody to say no, no, go ahead. But if we can approach it from that place of curiosity, it really just invites a little bit more transparency and openness.

Speaker 5: 22:28

How can we pinpoint or recognize when an existing friendship or relationship is negatively impacting our energy?

Speaker 1: 22:41

We can all relate to this in different ways Meaning, just because a friendship is quote-unquote negatively having a negative pull in our energy, that by no means means that we need to cut and run or that we should let go of that friendship. The two traps that I see people falling into one is this idea of just believing that if a friendship is unhealthy in some way, or that if it's taking a negative toll, that that necessarily means that this is the end of that friendship and that we should let go of this person and cut them out of our lives. The other end of the spectrum, the other trap that I see people falling into, is this belief that we have to stay friends with someone, that we have to stay friends because we have this friendship history. We've been in each other's lives for so long. We've shared so many positive memories our children, our friends and all of those shoulds and that felt duty and obligation keeps us trapped, essentially, in friendships that have long run their course.

Speaker 1: 23:41

Ultimately, the answer to this question is both simple and incredibly difficult. The answer is how does this friendship make you feel? In a lot of ways, it isn't more complicated than that. How do you feel? How do you feel when you're with this person? How do you feel after you've spent time with this person? How do you feel before you're interacting with them, if you know you have plans coming up, if you see them calling on your phone, if you get a text message from them, that's giving you that wave of anxiety, or is it really nice to see that they're thinking of you and checking in?

Speaker 1: 24:16

The most important piece here is the chronicity. Is this a pattern? Not. Is this a one-time thing? Not. Is this an off week or even an off month because there's something going on in their life that's leading them to act a certain way in your friendship that doesn't feel so good, or because there's something going on in your own life where you just have less capacity to quote, unquote, deal with other people and other people's stuff. Can you really establish a pattern here? Can you honor your feelings? Can you then take the step of? This doesn't feel so good.

Speaker 1: 24:49

My two choices are, well, my three choices. Either I stick it out and do nothing about this and continue to suffer. I would not recommend that because, again, our friendships are so closely connected with our well-being that it isn't just that momentary discomfort that you're causing yourself. There are measurable consequences on your health and well-being. You could just stick it out, but I wouldn't recommend it. Do let go.

Speaker 1: 25:11

In some cases that's the right decision. Or do you decide to say something and do something to resolve that conflict, to process those feelings, to try and shift the dynamic? There are all sorts of ways that we can do. That Doesn't necessarily mean they will always work out in the way that we want it to, especially because, again, it's co-created, those conversations. We don't know who the other person will respond or what steps they're willing to take to shift this dynamic. But it is a starting point and I have seen friends come back from periods that have been less optimal or less unhealthy to go on to create much closer connections In some cases yeah, closer than they had before, whatever strange period surfaced.

Speaker 5: 25:46

Definitely have been in that before. Those are wonderful words of wisdom.

Speaker 2: 25:51

I know I mentioned before, as moms a lot of our friendships begin to be established because our kids are friends, right, they meet in preschool, they meet in elementary school and we form these relationships with other moms with that bond. Then our kids get a little older and they may grow apart or not get along or not have the same interests, but you still want to maintain this friendship that you've built with the mom or other moms. How do we add some separation there so that we can keep building that relationship even if our kids aren't involved?

Speaker 1: 26:27

anymore. In some ways, what we're talking about is broadening our friendship, broadening it out to not only center on our children and the ways that those people bring us together. I actually think this is a very powerful opportunity to not only broaden your friendship but deepen it, because being open about your desire to stay connected and to be friends even when your children aren't friends, even when your little ones aren't connected anymore, that is a powerful opportunity to communicate. I truly like you I actually am choosing to be friends with you that this isn't only a friendship of convenience. We probably spoke about this in our first conversation and I know we have chatted about this over the years this idea that a big part of what separates our friendships from our other relationships and a big part of what makes them so powerful is that they are voluntary relationships, that we are choosing who we are friends with, who we stay friends with.

Speaker 1: 27:31

The more we can communicate that choice, that this isn't a relationship of convenience, it's a connection of closeness, that the more satisfied and close we both feel in that connection, I actually think being very transparent about it again, as vulnerable as that can be, is not only the next step but is a strategy in and of itself to deepen that connection. Then, from there, of course, is that practical piece of well, do we need to find new ways to connect? If the way that we usually hung out was always during play dates with our kids and we've never gone for coffee, the two of us are gone for a walk. Can we explore what some of those overlapping interests are? Find your other point of connection, because it isn't going to be your children.

Speaker 1: 28:16

That might be some of what makes its way into conversations, but ideally this is true for all of our friendships as moms, that the point of connection isn't only the fact that we have children or have children around the same age. That, of course, that's a big part of our lives, but we are so much more than that. Our friendships deserve and our friends deserve to be part of all of who we are, or I should say at least more of who we are than just our role as mothers. That's not to minimize how huge and significant that part of us is, but the more we can open up about the other dimensions of ourselves, the more our friendships benefit from that.

Speaker 2: 28:49

That's a nice gentle reminder.

Speaker 5: 28:52

It's really the way you're positioning this feels very empowering, because it's just a beautiful thing about adult friendships that, in the way that you're describing when we're choosing them, we're selecting who we want in our life, in a way and discerning might be a better way to say it it feels very empowering that it's no longer our whole lives. We've had friendships of convenience whoever's in your class, whoever's in your dorm, whatever and it doesn't have to continue on that path, like it doesn't have to be the parents of your kid's best friend, and that can be actually really a hard awareness to come to. So I think this is such a gift that you're giving of this wisdom.

Speaker 1: 29:38

In some ways, it's both the blessing and the curse of adult friendships, because it means that it's a lot more challenging to find those people, to build those new connections. When you're little, who's going to be your friend? You're right, it's the person who's sitting next to you in class or two desks over. It's whoever on the hockey team with you. It's whoever is doing that after school play or musical with you. Those are the people who are going to be your friends because that's who you have access to, and that doesn't mean that you'll be friends with everyone.

Speaker 1: 30:04

But you know where your connections are coming from and you already have that built in structure to help you maintain it. That time spent together, consistency, frequency, all of that is also what allows us to strengthen our connections. So it is more challenging in adulthood when we don't have those built-in structures of support. On the other hand, yeah, this more encouraging spin what I hope is a more encouraging spin and isn't just spin is grounded in reality. It's that we get to choose and we can lean into that agency as a way of not only investing in closer connections but really investing in our well-being and growth.

Speaker 5: 30:36

Can I ask you a question about? Okay, so we're working mothers listening to this podcast. Probably there are times when I'm really in it with my friends, and then there are times when I'm going dark, Like it could be like a good six weeks, eight weeks. We're like I can't quite participate in the chat, I'm not making it to the events, like I'm not texting, I'm not in. Do you have any advice for like bridging that gap? Like are we, should we be? Should we communicate? Like look, it's busy season at work and I will surface when I can surface, but this is where I am right now, or like any any thoughts for how we might either support someone who might be going through that themselves, or like communicate with them, or to ask, or to communicate it about our own experience.

Speaker 1: 31:29

Hi, yeah, this is a great question. I'm partly smirking as you're saying this, because I you remind me of my own tendency to go dark, especially on group chats. Like I as, as as much as group chats are wonderful and exciting and energy filled, I suck. I suck at group chats, even even on a good day, even on you know, a week yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:53

I just I yeah, I never advocate ghosting and yet group chats is the one time where I find myself so easily falling into those patterns. But you know, this word pattern actually really is again at the heart of this discussion, that this is why we need to be able to give our friendships space to breathe and give our friendships time for patterns to declare themselves. And and I'll come back to that question of strategy in a second but if you or myself, you know, if, if we're people who tend to find it difficult on certain, in certain periods of time, to participate in group chats or to respond to messages or to get together again, we'll come back to that piece of what do we do in those moments and how do we talk about that. But there's a good chance that your friends, over time, have learned somewhere in their minds that this happens, that this happens. It doesn't mean they love it. It doesn't mean my friends love when I don't respond to messages in the group chat. But they understand that this is probably not about them. This is probably something about me that I struggle with that amount of information, overwhelm when I'm overwhelmed with other areas of my life. And the more you can take that broadened out approach, the more contextual details you have and the less likely you are to personalize it, and that helps with being able to be in it and not just cut and run. Because, you can understand, this isn't about me, this isn't about our friendship. This is about something that happens Now.

Speaker 1: 33:19

The advice that I have here and I'm saying this partly for anyone listening, but also and especially for myself is to be be a little bit more communicative about it and to own it and, yes, sometimes giving warning ahead of time. I'm heading into a very busy stretch at work, and please know that if I am less responsive or if I don't answer calls or I don't call you back in the same way that I usually do if I have to turn down plans, it's not because I don't care about you, it's not because I don't value our friendship. I'm just anticipating that I will be a little bit overwhelmed. So giving that context is helpful because, again, it reiterates our investment in that friendship and it gives our friends the information that they need to not personalize it.

Speaker 1: 34:00

The other strategy, though, that I would really recommend is doing a bit of that work beforehand to offer up solutions, because we don't want to do is kind of have this disclaimer and say, too bad, that's the way it is and there's no room for your needs or your experience in this conversation.

Speaker 1: 34:20

That does not mean we need to be overly accommodating and make plans on a day or week where we really are at capacity. But can we do a little bit of that work to honor the fact that our friends might want to hear from us and that being ghosted in a group chat might not feel great, and so doing a little bit of that work? So, for example, I'm anticipating that I will be unavailable in group chats because that tends to make me overwhelmed. But if you want to reach me and I really do want to connect, can you try texting me one on one? Can we schedule a call? Can I make a note to follow up with you in a week so that we can make sure we get a time to connect on the table. So those types of conversations up front can be really helpful for surfing those periods where the pattern is a little off.

Speaker 2: 35:04

All right, I want to piggyback on this because, mads, you're talking about sort of the short term going underwater and not coming back up for air for a bit, and I think a lot of moms have also experienced, like a longer term ghosting and there wasn't a reason why per se. Your friendship stopped and you both stopped communicating. It really just had to do with life and kids and relocations and new jobs. And then you look back and you're like, oh, a year has passed, two years have passed, but I really did like this person. We connected, we had a great time when we were together. So my question is if you're starting to feel like you'd like to reconnect with someone that you didn't have a ghosting situation intentionally, how would you go about sparking that conversation? Because I imagine they have the story and you have the story that too much time has passed.

Speaker 1: 36:07

Yeah, and that belief that not only has time passed has it been a while but too much time has passed that we will be unable to pick up the conversation, that someone's feelings will be hurt here, that we no longer able to connect because we're at different places in our lives or we're different people. Those beliefs, again, that narrative, is often what holds us back from taking action and leading into our genuine, felt desire to reconnect. And what's interesting is, again, a lot of the research shows us that people are actually very happy to hear from us, especially when it's unexpected that if there is that element of surprise of oh you don't usually message me at that time or we haven't spoken in a while, that being on the receiving end of those check-ins is so deeply appreciated. And so, while we are so preoccupied with well, oh my gosh, how is this going to be received? Is this going to be inappropriate or intrusive? People are so grateful. It feels so good to have a long lost friend check in on you and say you are on my mind after all this time. Right, that's the, that's the reframe. It's been so long, yeah, it's been so long, and you are still thinking about this person. How special is that Clearly the impact that they had on you and that that connection had on your life is so significant. So hopefully that frees up a little bit of space to sit in those difficult feelings and not hold you back.

Speaker 1: 37:32

The other piece that I'll often hear is well, what do I say? Ok, I want to reach out. Ok, I see the value in reaching out. But what do I actually say? And luckily, my advice here is it really doesn't matter. It really does not matter. It can be as simple. As I'm thinking of you. Here's what reminded me of you. I would love to catch up for real. If you have the time, can we schedule something? If you're open to that it really doesn't matter what we say that people are generally very receptive to that. And if they're not, there's a chance, of course, that someone will set boundaries and say I respond with a cursory Nice to hear from you, hope you're well, we may be like.

Speaker 1: 38:09

OK, I understand. I will add and I'll say that even that is, on the one hand, for a lot of people that is very clear in terms of how they receive it, in terms of how they're communicating it. But there are some people who might say that but still might be open to reconnecting. And so maybe we want to try more than once, maybe we want to send a follow up, you know, a couple of weeks later and then gauge that we might need to ramp up the momentum in the frequency before we're really ready to take things to the next step and reconnect. And yeah, generally you'll get a sense of how open someone is.

Speaker 1: 38:44

I like to think of it as we have people in our lives who are orbiting around us. They might not be in our core circle, they're not our close friends, they're not our best friends, they're maybe not even friends, they're long lost friends, they're acquaintances, but our friendships are fluid and just as people can kind of move further away, we can have people in those outer orbits come back into our lives. And actually there's one of my closest friends right now is somebody who I was friends with in high school and we lost touch and we reconnected thanks to partly having children around the same time, and we were orbiting for all those years and would have a little bit of chit chat for a decade plus, but nothing, nothing more than that. And now she's one of my closest friends. That happens.

Speaker 5: 39:23

Amazing. I want to share something. I had a moment of courage, like a few weeks ago, during this time, when I'm like just trying to give love and say how I feel there are also a friendship, or also a high school friendship, as you mentioned and I saw that she got engaged a few months ago and I just like loved we just like really vibed in high school and I reached out and I was like I was going to say her name, but I guess it's fine. I was like Brittany, I have so much love for you from afar. Like I saw that you're engaged, I would love nothing more than to. This is so like bold. And I just sent it and then went to bed.

Speaker 5: 40:06

But I was like I would love nothing more than to fly to Montana and dance at your wedding. I don't know when it is. I like go alone, just fly, be a stranger, and just like celebrate you. And I just was like this is so bold. I don't know I'm inviting myself, I'm asking to go to her wedding and like I don't even. I don't even want to go to other weddings, you know, but like I just wanted to celebrate her and I woke up and she had. She was, like Matt, so good to hear from you, like, oh my God, my wedding is this date. I would love to have you. We have a cabin on our property Like you can stay there or any other time. Like it was met with such like reciprocity and love. I was like why aren't I doing this more often, like just share how I feel it was like such a win in that regard.

Speaker 1: 40:54

Well, you're inspiring me to be a little bit more bold and brave and, in my connection, so I love hearing that, matt, don't invite yourself to people's weddings, but I mean. That's not context. Right, I'm trying to find myself to bring these weddings. Seems like she's up to Right. Right, these guys and messages yeah, people are. It just feels so good. And the other thing I'll say is those moments of connection can benefit us and the person on the receiving end, whether or not we go on to rekindle our friendship and so I also want to invite people to kind of reevaluate these quote unquote successful outcome of that type of an action?

Speaker 1: 41:33

that yes, of course our hope is that we reconnect and we become close again and we become good friends, and very often that is what happens or what does or what can happen.

Speaker 1: 41:43

But it also might be just a really nice moment of reconnection in and of itself and it might be one of those what I call micro doses of connection that we all need.

Speaker 1: 41:52

Can you get just a little bit more connection and belonging in your life and expressing that you still care about somebody after all these days or years even, and that you see them and you recognize how big of a moment this is in their life and you're celebrating that from afar? That's a micro dose of connection and belonging that official for both of you. Another win in that situation is here you are having this moment where you, for whatever reason, felt like you were able to seize that moment and be a little bit bold and brave and practice those skills and that moment and having that positive experience or exchange that is going to make it more likely that you will do that again with someone else, and who knows whether that will be the person who then you end up reconnecting with in a very heartfelt, meaningful way, and so there are a lot of ways that we can benefit from those types of actions in terms of a rekindling process. It isn't just about going on to create a close friendship, as close as you had in the past.

Speaker 6: 42:50

I just want to make a general comment about all these conversations. I mean I just think it's so important to have, like I'm in my later 20. So my friendships have, like I mean they're always dramatically shifting, but in the best ways. And I totally hear you when you said the concept of like orbiting, like I have just totally seen friendships like reenter my life back up for a second, jump back in. But what I'm learning is it's just really important to rally behind friends who are going through like big life changes. So, like you said, mads, sometimes I've seen friends who have had to go dark for a bit and then they come back up for air and I even think about exciting things.

Speaker 6: 43:35

It doesn't have to be anything totally depressing. It could also be a wedding where you might think like, oh, they don't have time, they're busy, they're busy and it's like no, they need your support more than ever. Planning a wedding is the most stressful thing I've ever had to witness from the side. So it's like it's just about being for your friends, like where you can, and I do think it goes back to that connection that never necessarily, you never necessarily lose, so you shouldn't be afraid to reengage with it and I think a helpful reframe is thinking like to stop worrying about if they're or worrying that you're not worthy of their orbit, when you might be exactly what they need at the time. So if you're reconnecting with a friend, it's like they might need to hear from you and you just don't know what's going on. Even if they live across the country, you don't know what's going on in their close friendship circle Like you could be a disaster.

Speaker 6: 44:28

They might need you to reach out. So it's really important, and I do think the best things come back to you too, like, just keep following your interests and the community will just be there and you don't have to worry so much about it. So I don't really have any questions. I just think this is a great comment. So much wisdom, marla.

Speaker 1: 44:47

I don't need this, it's all. I love how you put that you are worthy of other people's orbits. I love that.

Speaker 6: 44:55

Well, I think when I bump into people on the street that I don't necessarily need to see, or like I wasn't thinking about it, but then I was like, oh, maybe they need to see me or they need to say hi to someone, and I was a random person in their life and they just needed to hear that it's so interesting and friendships are such an important relationship to prioritize in your life.

Speaker 6: 45:20

But I think it's also good to understand as we get older it can't be the only priority, and then we have to respect that too.

Speaker 1: 45:28

Yeah, well said, I'll sign that. Good to say.

Speaker 5: 45:34

As our kids make new friendships in key developmental years, any advice on how we can guide them to make positive choices?

Speaker 1: 45:43

Yeah, oh, I love this question. So a few things come up here. The first is recognizing that the most helpful way we can encourage our children to build healthy friendships is by modeling healthy friendships, and we think a lot about this in terms of our romantic relationships and partnerships. How can we model what a healthy partner dynamic looks like? But we are doing that every day, when we talk about our friends with our kids, when we show our kids how often we're checking in on friends, when we talk about how we're going out of our way to support a friend who's going through a difficult time, and so really recognizing that investing in your own connections and friendships de facto an investment in your children's friendships that they're not at odds with one another. It's not when you say I can't tuck you in to bed tonight because I haven't seen my friend in months and she's in town and I love you and I need to go see her because she's such an important person that I care about we can very easily convince ourselves that we shouldn't go because we need to prioritize our family and our kids will be, and, of course, our family is a massive priority. But what are you also teaching your child in that moment You're teaching them. Provided you're a consistent parent, which, of course, people are You're teaching them. My friendships also matter. These are important relationships that I need to invest in, and so those small moments carry a lot of weight. So that's the first strategy.

Speaker 1: 47:10

The second is this question that we talked about early on, this subjective experience question of how do I feel in this friendship? Can you talk about friendships like that? Who did you play with today? That's what we ask our kids. Who did you play with today? What did you do? Take the extra step what did it feel like to play with that person? Did that make you feel good? What did you like about that? What do you like about them? What do you like about being with them? Really start to encourage that type of self-reflection early on in terms of are you choosing people who make you feel good? And one of my closest friends does this so beautifully. There was a moment this past weekend we're in the very deep in the birthday party phase of childhood which I relatively knew, and I have all sorts of thoughts about this, so many I would love to talk about it at some point.

Speaker 1: 48:00

There was an interaction where two of the girls weren't playing so nicely with each other, which is also a bit of a new phase that I am learning a lot about. She's great at modeling this language of like. You know what? Let's come over here, let's play with people who make us feel good. Let's find somebody who it feels good to sit next to at this party and let's spend time with the people who make us feel good and just being really intentional about like. That's a strategy. Yes, it's not always about avoiding conflict resolution, but you can choose to leave that interaction and go spend time with people who make you feel good. I think that's a message that we don't say enough to our children. We don't say enough to ourselves either. You can choose to go spend time with people who make you feel good.

Speaker 5: 48:41

You're allowed that You're worthy of that. It's so simple to understand. It's so simple that kids can understand it and we all, I think, need to hear that and be OK with that.

Speaker 2: 48:54

Yeah, oh, I really really want to ask about call her daddy, can you take to talk about that experience? Oh, yeah, very exciting.

Speaker 1: 49:05

Is this part of your podcast that I'm talking?

Speaker 2: 49:08

about, of course Of course it was great.

Speaker 1: 49:13

It was a great experience. I yeah, it was really fun. It was really great to be invited back and I see why what she does is so successful. I mean just, of course, charismatic and topical and all that. But Alex was really great at kind of picking up on the little kernels, like, oh, that's an interesting point, and really good at that self-disclosure piece that I think makes people connect to what she's talking about in her episodes. That's great and you are all wonderful at that too, which I find just makes it so much richer the more. I mean it's the same principles for our friendships. It's everything we're talking about, right, that the more you can bring yourself to the conversation, the more people enjoy that conversation, the more it feels connectable. You can connect to it, relatable, exactly so, yeah, so that's just from a self-disclosure perspective of my own.

Speaker 1: 50:09

That's something that I've been thinking a lot about, because I find so much of my training as a therapist, and certainly as a therapist as a researcher, has squashed that out of me. Be objective, be the blank slate, communicate the facts only. To a large extent, I mean that's what I do when I'm having these kinds of conversations. I want to make sure that everything I'm talking about is research driven and is empirically validated, and I hope that that expertise comes through. But I feel like it's so easy to lose touch with the other parts of yourself that make this content, or any content, more relevant and relatable. So that's one of my goals for the next year that I've been thinking a lot about. It's like how can I reinsert myself into these conversations, not in an egotistical way, but in a way that hopefully makes it a little bit more meaningful and personally meaningful too. So that's just something that's been on my mind.

Speaker 5: 51:11

It's so good and we work in thought leadership and public relations, and that is everyone's special sauce is themselves, because there's going to be experts in your same field saying your same thing, but there's no one out there who is you, and so the more we can infuse our humanity into our work, the more uniquely powerful it can be Very sad that our time is up. This is always so fun with you. Where can we direct our listeners? And you know what? I didn't bring up your new course, which I'm like lusting after your friendship course. Do you want to mention that? Sure, sure.

Speaker 1: 51:49

So I just launched the first cohort.

Speaker 1: 51:51

This has been a labor of love and a lot of other things.

Speaker 1: 51:57

Creating a course is not for the faint of heart, but my very first course, confidely Connected was just launched last week actually and so it's all about how we can leverage the science of connection and friendship to build closer, more meaningful friendships, and so it covers a lot of what we talked about here today in terms of that mindset piece of how can we reframe the friendship misconceptions that we have and the personal limiting beliefs about ourselves, about other people, about the world and friendships in general.

Speaker 1: 52:25

And then from there it goes on to like a very deep dive of where do we actually meet new people and how do we figure out what the right kinds of activities and places and spaces are that we shouldn't start ourselves into connect with those good friends, and what are the apps and online communities that we can harness to expand our connections and meet new people, and how do we approach people that we're looking to be friends with, and all of those very big questions that none of us get schooled in. Frankly, because we don't talk about friendship, there's no friendship course and there's certainly no adult friendship course, and so that was the real impetus behind this is let's all kind of, yeah, really use the information that's available to figure out how we can build new authentic connections. So, anyway, I'll let you say I'm very excited about it right now that first cohort launched, but I'll probably launch it again in the fall.

Speaker 5: 53:11

So I'm thinking Thank you so much for being with us. It's always a pleasure connecting and hopefully we can do it again soon.

Speaker 4: 53:19

Soon. Yeah, I'll see you in the next video.