Carino and Loba discuss the complexities, conflicts, as well as beautiful intimacies of being in a relationship as a couple with one person on the asexual spectrum and the other person being allosexual. This episode also features Loba's segment "Your New Age Shit Will Not Save You," exploring and critically thinking about the idea of "divine femininity" from transmisogyny to the politics of pan-indigeneity. Of course, the episode wouldn't be complete without a side rant on interspecies relations, decentering human to human relations, and plantsexuality.
Carino and Loba discuss the complexities, conflicts, as well as beautiful intimacies of being in a relationship as a couple with one person on the asexual spectrum and the other person being allosexual. This episode also features Loba's segment "Your New Age Shit Will Not Save You," exploring and critically thinking about the idea of "divine femininity" from transmisogyny to the politics of pan-indigeneity. Of course, the episode wouldn't be complete without a side rant on interspecies relations, decentering human to human relations, and plantsexuality.
Ace- Ready to Listen
[00:00:00] Carino: Welcome back to Wild Weeds, Growing Ungovernable relations. Wild Weeds is a podcast about exploring the relations between ourselves, others, and greater than human beings. Today's about being on the asexual spectrum and in a relationship with an allosexual person. And this episode is brought to you by Alchemy Organica, Reiki Works SF, and Chandra Botanicals.
We are your hosts, Loba and Carino, and we are super excited to welcome you all back and let y'all into our dynamics a little bit. But before we do
Loba: Don't you love this podcast, don't you want to see this podcast grow and flourish. And you know. Have more podcast episodes in the future. Well, if you do please, make sure, like for real, to make sure to go into Instagram, [00:01:00] follow us @wildweedspodcast and make sure as as you're listening to this, that you are posting about it in your stories. You're tagging us. Also make sure to leave a review in whatever platform you're listening this to. And you can always e-tip us to Venmo @wildweedspodcast. And we also have a Patreon and other ways that you can support. Just go to the link in our bio in our Instagram and that's where you find it.
But honestly, even something as simple as leaving and review a and telling your friend to listen to us would help a whole bunch. So let's just get started and talk about this. I feel like, you know, people always want to know what asexuality means, like what it actually means. Since there is so many, like weird representations in the media around what an asexual person is.
Right? I know that a couple of months ago, we were both talking about it in my Instagram about, you know, like our relationship and like asexuality and all of this and like so many people were really interested. And we even ended up making a whole video in my Patreon, which by the [00:02:00] way, have a Patreon. Patreon.com/lalobaloca With more content that you can, you know, you can also watch videos and stuff.
well for today, I do want you to describe to us and like, tell us what asexuality and allosexuality means. Cause allosexuality is a very weird word. What does it mean? Tell me.
Carino: It is. So today we're gonna start with a little bit of an education around what allosexual and asexual means, just because we want everyone to be on the same page with what we're talking about.
so let's start with asexual. So asexuality just like all types of gender and sexuality things is a spectrum. So asexual. A meaning like the absence of, so like agender, the absence of gender, asexual, the absence of sexual desire, sexual need or things on that spectrum. So folks who are asexual may experience sexual desire sometimes or not at all.
Or maybe you will experience sexual desire with some people and not others, or folks who are sex repulsed who think that sex is more or less [00:03:00] disgusting and are repulsed by it and don't want to hear about it and talk about it or engage with it at all. Along the asexual spectrum are folks who can be gray-asexual, so that somewhere in between someone who is a sexual person and a completely asexual person, someone who experienced zero sexual desire and need at all, and lie somewhere on that spectrum. And then demisexual folks are folks who are also on the asexual spectrum who just need to make a different type of bond. Maybe that's platonic or romantic before they are able to feel sexual desire or attraction to another person.
Loba: And I feel like for me it's like super important to talk about asexuality or you know, the spectrum of say asexuality when we're talking about sex positivity.
Because sometimes I feel like what I mean personally, what really irks me about some of is like sex. Positive talk is that it's so focused on like, Oh my God, sex is great. Sex, it wasn't a heal you. Sex is going to heal your cramps, sex is going to heal whatever fucking issue you have going on in your life.
Sex is going to, I don't know, make your mental health better, which might be true for some people, but not [00:04:00] for everybody. So I feel like also part of my sex positivity practice is asexuality being one my case. Kind of a big thing. Cause I, I'm in this, I'm demisexual. But to me it's a, to me being sex positive also means, you know, just being okay with people and not having sex and not centering sex as the cure all thing.
Because I feel like sometimes there is - even if it's not about sex, like the conversation around like sexual energy or I don't know, like. Just like so much like sex talk` sometimes that I'm like ill really like, you'll not have nothing else better to do. And talk about how sex is going to save your lives, which for some folks it does.
I think it also has to do with like where we're at in our journey because I feel like, yeah, when I was younger I was super into like the whole like, you know free like freedom, my sexual freedom or whatever. But now I'm like 30 and I feel like I'm done a lot of that shit. So I'm like, okay, well what else is out there besides this?
Like idea of like sexual freedom, which. I'm not opposed to like at all. I think it's really healing for some folks, but I think he's also very important [00:05:00] to know that, you know, sex is not something that everybody, everybody's goal in a relationship or even in life or like, I dunno. What do you think?
Carino: Yeah. I think that when we talk about about sex positivity, I think it's important for me, my definition of sex positivity is going after all the consensual sex that you want and none of it that you don't.
So I think it's also important to realize that part of sex positivity is being able to identify your boundaries and being able to identify. Where your limits are, your hard limits, and being able to say no and being confident in consent culture. So with that being said, and we also want to define allosexual, which is basically just a sexual person.
Yeah. So I may allosexual I'm a person who experienced the sexual desire and sexual need and all that type of stuff. I would love for us to like talk about. Where we're at on those sexual spectrums and like how we identify and what that was like for us.
Loba: Because I feel like for me, back in the day when I was, I dunno, younger, my whole focus in life was to be like super sexually liberated.
Like that was the goal. And I think a lot of that had to do like. [00:06:00] Growing up in a Catholic household, a heterosexual household, every quote unquote monogamous household. you know, like this idea of like what a family looks like, what people are supposed to do. And you know, I was kind of one of those like little queer kids, like, fuck that fuck everything
so I was like. I do, and later on I realized that I'm not really love fucking sexual. Like I'm really not. I'm just like not, I mean, I like, I enjoy sex. Like I'm, I wouldn't say that I'm asexual all the time, but there's times that I can go without sex and just be, just really happy about it. So I think for me, I identify as demisexual, meaning that I do need to have some kind of connection with somebody before I even have any kind of like. Sexual desire for them. And I feel like a lot of people might feel like that's their case too, right? Cause a lot of folks might even just need meet somebody before, like, you know, creating any kind of like sexual energy between them. But I think that for me is like, it really happens. I, once in a blue moon, I find somebody that I'm sexually [00:07:00] attracted to
Carino: like me.
Loba: Yeah.
Carino: Shut up! Do you also identify as grey-asexual at any point. Cause I know like for us, like we've been together for a while and like we go long periods without having sex because sometimes we're not experiencing--
What is
Loba: grey-asexual? Tell us what that is.
Carino: So gret-asexual is when--
Loba: I mean you already said it, but I wanna ehar it again. What does grey-asexual mean.
Carino: When you're somewhere on the spectrum of being completely sex-repulsed asexual, do not have any desire for sex and sexual. So somewhere in the middle, somewhere on that spectrum. So like for example, in our relationship, we have had sex and the beginning of our relationship was more focused on sex and now it's developed in something that's more focused on like other types of intimacies.
And like you'll go long periods of like completely telling me, no, there's no sex in this relationship for a while.
Loba: Yeah, I do. I feel like I identify as grey-asexual, and demisexual. And I, I just so funny cause I never knew those words before. I mean I knew I existed but I was like, am I really asexual? No I'm not .
And I feel like probably a lot of it was my internalized asexual phobia cause I feel like. Sometimes you [00:08:00] know, when you think about asexual people, you'd think about like lonely people with like, I dunno, [speaking spanish] in their underwear, you know, dirty chonis, like, which is fucked up, you know? But I feel like I probably internalize all of that.
And I was like, Oh, I don't want to that. I can't be that. And I also, you know, I grew up in a quote unquote semi Catholic mostly. Catholic- pagan household, whatever. But you know, I feel like also like part of myself, my identity was very much being like, you know, sexually liberated. Like that's the whole thing, right?
That like when, you know, like I, this story that I told myself until I realized that I'm not that, but I do identify as grey-asexual and demisexual and yeah. So, you know, there was interesting conversations that happen in Instagram because I feel like one of the issues that happens, we know when we don't really know where like that identity means, is that we push ourselves to have sex.
I feel like. I mean, most of the people that are identified with like asexuality or demisexual economic self, I feel like I've had many conversations with folks being like, yeah, [00:09:00] like I feel like I forced myself to have a lot of sex or they don't want to have, just because I felt that it was something that I had to do as we part of our relationship or that I had to do to be, you know, to kind of build some kind of like intimacy with somebody.
But. I feel like it's been, you know, it's been nice being with you because that's not our focus. Even though you're like a very sexual person, a very sexual person, which sucks for you, but oh well.
Carino: I mean, it's fine. well, yeah, I guess for me, I mean I also have not always been allosexual so I think for me, like it makes sense to understand like your needs differently just because like I've been like where you're at, you know, like again, like all sexuality, more or less is fluid and it changes over time. So for me, like I was completely asexual, and I think this is common, honestly, even though we don't really talk about it my whole life until I was about 18 and I think we talk about like teenagers being like hyper-sexual and like having so many hormone stuff. And it wasn't until I was in college that I actually experienced sexual desire and sexual need. And that has been fluid [00:10:00] throughout my life for a lot of reasons. There are a lot of like circumstances that will cause folks to be more sexual, less sexual. Like Loba was talking about like moving out of a Catholic household, a monogamous household, et cetera, caused that person to like want to be more sexually liberated and like have more sex.
And that's great. I think for me, and a lot of people being depressed can change your sexuality. Being on depression medication can change your sexual desires. Having trauma in sex and sexual abuse and sexual assault can change your sexual desire. And all of those things are different for everyone.
So I also want to name that it's really normal wherever you're at and why you're feeling this way. Doesn't really matter if you're asexual today, but then you start working through trauma and then you're not asexual next month. Like that was still very real, very real time in your life, and those needs for not having sex are just as important as your needs for having sex.
One of the things that I did want to talk about with you today, Loba. For folks to hear was about our relationship personally and like [00:11:00] the ways that we move through things. So I did want to ask, just have that open discussion, like what has been hard for you being with me as someone who is at this point in my life, more sexual than I've ever been
Loba: [laughs] That's horrible. I'm so sorry for you.
Carino: No. I mean, there's no alogolies.
Loba: No, no. I know, but I mean, I'm not apologizingl, it isn't because I don't want to have sex. I'm just apologizing in general. but I feel like for me it's just like feeling, you know, sad. Because I mean, we're, we're polyamorous so that's just like another, I guess, part of our relationship that I think is also important to mention because polyamory can look different for everybody, right? But for me, it's like, well, you can get your sexual needs met somewhere else. Right? But I feel like that sounds like super easy, but it also, they're just so much like politics of hooking up too right? There is some folks that like, you know, like hooking up is like their thing. But there's some other folks that like need to have like some other type of like connection to people or like I need to have or whatever, you know, like there is so [00:12:00] much to be said around hooking up. So I feel like it could just be like, Hey, just go hook up with anybody and get you a sexual needs met
and
Carino: that's clearly not my reality.
Loba: So, yeah, I mean, I feel like mostly for me is just like in my head I'm like, damn, I wish I was sexual right now because I would like to meet, like, help you meet those, help you meet those needs. Does that make any sense?
Carino: Yeah. mhmm.
Loba: But at the same timeI'm like well I'm not, cause I'm not sexual, so I'm sorry, but. Just interesting because this is what I was, one of the things that came up a lot for folks that so I made up, or a couple of months ago in my Instagram around asexuality and a lot of folks were actually like, Oh my God, I didn't realize that I was asexual.
Or people that were like, Oh my God, I thought it was broken. Or people were being like, you know, I thought I had to do, I had to go to therapy. I thought that this was because, you know, I was sexually assaulted when I was younger, but yeah, sure it can, it can impact it. But I know a lot of people that [00:13:00] have been sexually assaulted as kids, and they're extremely sexual.
So. It's like, it doesn't mean, you know, like it doesn't mean that you're broken. So I feel like that's the first thing that I've had to tell myself a lot this last couple of years has been like, I'm no broken for not feeling like a sexual desire right now. Or I'm not broken for not wanting to have sex with somebody that I'm sexually attracted to.
Like I'm sexually attracted to you. But I feel like for me, like sex, it's not like, like the goal, right?
Carino: Like the attraction is not the same as desire for engagement.
Loba: Yeah. Cause I'm a super attracted to you and I could think of other people that I'm like super attracted to that. You know? Like, I don't know, like there's one person that I'm attracted to that I think we tried to have sex a couple of years ago and I don't think that's going to happen ever again, you know?
But I'm super attracted to them sexually. I'm like, wow.
Carino: I mean, that person is like, godly
Loba: yeah, I'm like, damn I can look at you all day long, but I don't necessarily feel like we're ever going to have sex, you know? That's okay with me to have other types of, you know, [00:14:00] ways of like being with people, but I feel like.
That's probably the hardest thing being like, I wish I could meet that for you, but I can't. But also just being okay with me, like not being able to do that, but it's still having like a lot of internal debate around that, which I think is probably always going to be there. But I feel like one of the main takeaways of this whole, I guess journey or whatever, I don't want it to sound like one of those like help books, the journey of being whatever.
Demisexual/grey-asexual. One of the main takeaways for me has been that it's okay to not experience sexual... sexual... how would you say it?
Carino: Desire?
Loba: Like sexual desire for longer times, like, or like, or at all right. So I've, I'm, I definitely wouldn't say that I'm not asexual because there is times that I am sexual and especially I feel like sometimes when I meet people that I'm attracted to, which is, like again, once every blue moon, then I might be like more sexual than usual. But I think that the main takeaway is like [00:15:00] realizing that we're not broken. We just experienced life in a different way. And to me, I feel like touch is like. So filling like I don't even need to me like it's orgasmic to like getting touched is orgasmic and honestly like I feel like since I started to work with plants, like what?
I think I've almost done it for almost a decade now. I feel like I'll also find a lot of like. Fulfillment. Orgasmic Plant fulfillment in working with plans and organizing, organizing, Oh God, the best sex I could ever wish for. No mentira!
Carino: Loba means organizing, like organizing paperwork and pencils and pens. Not even like activism.
Loba: Yeah, no, I'm talking about organizing, like organizing my closet, organizing my seeds,
Carino: Organize my room, Loba, damn.
Loba: No, organizing my shit.
Carino: Okay. Let's break for commercial,
The next part of the conversation is brought to you by Reiki Works SF. Based in SF in Oakland. Merit uses her hands to channel reiki energy for physical and emotional healing. She has five years [00:16:00] experience, sliding scale prices, ADA accessibility and uses consent check-ins. Check her out @ReikiWorksSF on Instagram or ReikiWorksSF.com Use code wild weeds when booking to get $15 off
Loba: anyway what about you what's the hardest part?
Carino: For our relationship specifically? I think for me the hardest part has been this is a new, like awareness of self for you.
So like the communication I think would be different for what we've experienced together. Then like you will experience with other people in the communication you'll have with them, which is great. I mean, like, you know, you have to go through that part of your life, but I think for me it's. Been like the communication around needs because like this is obviously something that you are building your awareness around building your active awareness around boundaries and like naming those things and like we have like other things in our relationship that matter that come up around like my personal like self esteem issues or like my desirability and like those things I think have clashed a lot.
And I. I think that moving forward, like we're working on having better communication, but like I think for me it's just been like, why? And once. Cause to me it's like if we have the [00:17:00] conversation, I'm good. I'm like, okay, cool, whatever. But because like we haven't like had so many conversations around like what you're going through.
I can't conceptualize it entirely. Like I can conceptualize the consent. That's not the problem. Like obviously, and I'm not over here trying to make Loba have sex with me that is neither here nor there. But I think the intimacy, like for me, like we don't have to have sex, but the intimacy needs to be fulfilled in other ways.
And I think that like I have a 40 hour job and you have a never ending job. So I don't always think there's like time for that kind of intimacy, which is really important to me. So I think that's what I struggle with most is that. Again, the sex doesn't need to happen, but the intimacy and care needs happened in other ways.
So like where I'm at right now is like building that with you and like understanding both of our like desires and needs outside of sex that we can fulfill that and like be really good in solid.
Loba: That's true I mean, this became some kind of therapy session because we still haven't had those conversations. I mean, we had some very briefly, but I do have a hard time talking about that and I feel like a [00:18:00] lot of it.
Is just like things that I have to work through around like, you know, like sometimes me trying to make myself feel/be sexual or like, over commit to things that I don't end up doing because I don't want to do them. Yeah, definitely. Over-committing like sometimes I'll be like, Hey, like I'm going to electrocute the fuck out of you and beat you up tonight and like rope you up,
Carino: which is obviously consensual and a part of my desire sand things that I asked for.
Loba: I guess we should say that. In my head, like, everybody knows that, you know? But yeah, so like, you know me offering to do this, things that I know that you like, and I do like giving that, but then the night would come and I'll be like, Oh, actually I don't feel like, but then you know, it sucks because then it makes you, it doesn't make you feel good when they say all of this things and I don't do them.
So it's also part of like, I feel like. Part of me needs to like stop doing that. So kind of working through that with my therapy here and there, but I'm also trying to work through other things that, you know, it's, they're never ending working with therapist about [00:19:00] shit.
Carino: I just also want to clarify that I'm never upset-- I don't want anyone to think that I'm an asshole. Like I, it's okay when Loba changes, loba's mind. Like that's not the problem. It's like. Patterns of like things never happening just so everyone knows that it's something that we're working through and like nobody's perfect, but I'm never upset that loba changes as lobas mine.
Loba: Okay. By the way, that's fucked up. I'm going to say
Carino: no. Absolutely.
Loba: Cause sometimes people, I've heard people sometimes talk to me or like, you know, talk. I dunno like Instagram rant about things and then they're like, yeah and like fuck my partner. Cause they said they were going to fuck me and they didn't fuck me. Fuck them all upset. And I'm like, what?
Like you kcan't be upsept at your partner for no wanting to fuck you. Or you can't be upset at your date for not wanting to fuck you.
Carino: . You can, you can be upset. You could be frustrated. You sexually frustrated. You can't be upset at somebody.. That isnot their fault.
Loba: Like you can have the feeling of being like, fuck this, I like dressed up to get fucked tonight, but it should never be like, Oh, you know, like mad at somebody directly because they decided not to fuck you at the end of the day.
Like, I do want to say that because that's fucked up. It is. Right. [00:20:00] So like, yeah, I feel like, I don't know hopefully that makes sense. That makes sense. But, the feeling of being upset at somebody not fucking you like, yeah, of course. Like, you know, if you want to get fucked, you're horny, then that sucks for you and you're probably going to be sad and frustrated.
But if you're acting on it or if you're like making the other person feel shitty for decided not to have sex, then that's fucked. According to us. Again, we're not exports.
Carino: Oh, no, no, no, no. That is, to me, a very expert opinion on consent. You need to be nicer.
Loba: Yes. but yeah, so I think that to me, like, you know, that's, it.
That's something that a lot of folks go through. Cause I feel like some of the comments that people were, you know, leaving was a lot around, you know, like I want to, I want to have a partnership with somebody, but then they want to have sex and like, I don't want to have sex, so how do we have a partnership?
So I feel like I honestly, I feel like I don't know how people can do that when they're in monogamous relationships. I'm sure. Folks end up figuring something out or like, I don't know, somebody ends up cheating on somebody else. I don't know what happens. I feel like if there's any, you know, like [00:21:00] monogamous partnership out there that has had this issue of like an asexual and Aallosexual person dating each other, it'd be great to hear from you like, like even like, we love to interview you honestly, cause it is such an important topic.
But yes, I feel like, I don't know how it works for other folks. I feel like for us, in a way, it also works because like you could always go and find that somewhere else, you know? Since we're a polyamorous couple.
Carino: Yeah. Which also like obviously doesn't just work out for everybody. Right? Like I don't have. As much sex as I would like to. just because it's like my, I mean, like partly like my own shit, like, and like desirability of like trans bodies like I know, like obviously like I'm still like a thin light-skin person, vagina owner or whatever, whatever. But like, obviously still things are like very real around like.
Desiring bodies that look like mine that are not, what's that word? Exotifying or fetish, like exotifying fetishizing me. Yeah. I mean I feel like I run into that a lot, but anyways, that's the point. Yeah.
Loba: Also that no! Don't fetishize people. Unless it's con- unless it's consensual. Cause [00:22:00] I feel like, you know, sometimes I like that sometimes.
Carino: In a scene. Okay, we're going off topic. It doesn't matter,
Loba: but don't fetishize people.
Carino: One thing that I also wanted to talk about and see what each other would like thinking was about, like, I think a lot of people wonder like, so what is it that you do? Like if you're not having sex. What are you doing? so for me, like showering together is really important to me.
It's really like fulfilling and loving and all that touch stuff when like Loba does my hair or when we do each other's makeup, or like, even like for me, because I am a really sexual person, very sexual person, I have a lot of sexual desires like to me, because it is okay with Lobo most times. Not all the time, but it's.
Fulfilling for me to like masturbate like next a little while though was like watching a movie or like whatever the fuck I like. Clearly not paying attention to me. It doesn't matter like, but I'm holding your hand, you know, like, cause those are things I still need daily that Loba is not going to participate in.
But like that's still [00:23:00] comfortable for us. And that's like sometimes enough for me. And what about you Loba? What is helpful for you?
Loba: I don't know. I feel like I started realizing slowly and slowly that I was kind of like an asexual in the asexual spectrum a couple of years ago when I realized that sometimes my work, just gives me a lot of fulfillment, which I that sounds horrible.
Carino: I mean, your work is really importnat.
Loba: I mean, it is cute, you know, not, yeah, yeah. It's cute stuff, but I don't know, just like, you know, doing a project, like figuring out how to like, do a workshop and make it so it's like free for like, I dunno, youth of color, like shit. Like that just makes me like feel like an extreme like, like this extreme expansiveness that is kind of very similar to when I have an orgasm. So, or like when I grow seeds, like honestly was like, Oh my God, they grew, you know, so I feel like, to me, I can, I can feel those feelings of fulfillment and like extreme euphoria with all their things.
And even just in regular [00:24:00] life, when I see something really cute on the streets, I'm like crying and just like, Oh my God, I can't believe it. So beautiful. You know, there's like people being cute to each other, or like, I don't know, shit like that, like just makes me like feel, so like an extreme feeling of euphoria that is very similar to the feeling that I feel when I'm having an orgasm, that it's like the whole world stops and it becomes like this little tiny like bubble of energy and then it expands and it's like everywhere, you know?
So I feel like I can feel that in all their ways. But with you, and I. I feel like everything you mentioned and I feel like talking shit and chismosiando. And also I, that's also why I like doing projects with you cause that's also part of my--
Carino: I hate doing projects with Loba. This is something I do for Loba. This podcast is for Loba.
Loba: This podcast has caused so many fucking between us
Carino: And Loba's like, this is intimacy for me.... Bitch.
Hey, anyways, before we get back to this conversation, we're going to break for Loba's segment, "Your New Age Shit Will Not Save You," which is brought to you by Chandra Botanicals, by Chandra Marie. Based in Northern Carolina, Chandra Botanicals connects people and plants with love and intention. [00:25:00] Chandra as a private chef, consultant and does workshops on intersectional plant `magic, check them out at chandrabotanicals.com or on Instagram @Chandrabotanicals.
Loba: Your new age shit will not save you. So in this episode we're going to be talking about divine femininity.
So yeah, and I have a special guest.
Carino: It's me, Carino, I'm still here.
Loba: Okay. So. I want to talk about this because you know, I used to do a lot of doula work. I used to do a lot of birth work stuff. I was even a student midwife at some point, and you know, I'm still somehow involved with reproductive justice work. I mean,
Reproductive justice work is not, you know, there's not a lot of like divine femininity to being thrown around there, but I feel like my work was very muchmixed between like, you know, healing more like, you know, healing stuff. And then also with like some of the political stuff, I was doing a lot more like abortion [00:26:00] support work, et cetera, et cetera.
But divine femininity. I feel like, you know, there's a little mix feelings about this cause I feel like when I first started hearing divine femininity, I just got really just like werded out. It just sounded very new agey to me. And I feel like a lot of the conversations around divine femininity tend to be very CIS and hetero.
So I kind of want to talk about it from my perspective. I also wanted to invite, Carino since, you know, like you might know about the divine femininity from another perspective.
Carino: Yeah. I mean, I don't. Typically do like birth work or reproductive justice work. So, and I'm not typically in those spaces cause I find them disgusting and I will leave.
I just won't show up. I won't go if you're not all of it.
Loba: I mean reproductive justice like that.
Carino: Reprouctive justice Is not the issue. It's like that likes the ciscentrism, the transphobia, the transmisogyny, right. That the pussy centrism like that's the issue. But I don't go to those places because I think the gross, for me, I think when I think about like divine femininity, I think about folks who are like "And our ancestors had the masculine and the feminine. I mean maybe. Sure. Because like I'm not going to account for like every indigenous like nation and culture because that's obviously ridiculous. I don't know about all of [00:27:00] them, but I do know that one thing it's important that I think when we're talking about gender and when we're talking about non Western gender and pre-colonial gender, is that when we're already talking about it in English, we are wrong because the language that we have is not the language of those experiences and the language of like what was being said.
And I just think that like today in 2020 most of us. Can't even really conceptualize what pre-colonial gender like felt like looked like existed like, so then when we talk about a binary, I feel like we're probably already wrong when we're already thinking about like, and then the sun was masculine and the moon was feminine.
Like was it like? Or were there other concepts. That were already being used. And when people attach themselves to divine femininity, I think that that can be very real for some. But I also think that we're enforcing a binary onto a concept that didn't necessarily have one. Does that make sense?
Loba: I like kind of where you're going to, because I feel like that's real too.
Right? So one is the idea of like panindigeneity, which is like people that are most. I mean, you know, I'm talking about like who I've come across [00:28:00] with. mostly like not in any type of tribal association. So we're not saying that, you know, if your group actually has a story and your story is saying that, you know, there is like mother this or like, you know, this person is like a feminine energy in this person and it's like a woman or this person is like the mother. corn. Whatever. Like we're not saying that we're just talking about, yeah, those are real, you know, those are real stories that people have but we're just talking about mostly like the pan indigeneity, or like this idea that you can just say divine femineity and it means something like every single indigenous culture, every single, like, you know, going back to the roots movement has some kind of like divine femininity attached to it, but it's.
Always like, so cis and so hetero and so monogamous centered, right? So like I'm talking about like things that I've gone to that, you know, people started talking about divine femininity and they're just talking about like CIS women, right? And they're talking about, you know, like cis heterosexual vaginas.
which I think like, that's the issue. The idea that we can just like, come up and just be like, divine [00:29:00] femininity does gonna heal all. Or like, you know, let's be de-colonial and talk about divine femininity and like, you know, wombs are sacred, blah, blah, blah. But like, okay, always coming from like a very pan indigenous.
Like, where the fuck are you talking? Like, where, like, what culture are you talking about? Like, where are you grabbing this from? Like, you know, it just gets really blurry and just really fucking weird. I'm not saying that, you know, there's like folks that actually view the womb something sacred. Like, I'm not saying that, you know, it's not.
I'm not saying that it is, I'm just saying that the idea of the divine femininity, the way that I have perceived it tends to be very new agey and by new agey, it means that it has no fucking roots. It's like anybody can the hashtag, you know, divine femininity or like yoga for divine femininity it always tends to be like very much exclusionary spaces.
Right. Cause it, it's created mostly. in my experience, you know, talking about it from like, you know, you know, like it just tends to be very like CIS and heterosexual focus, which of course is very trans misogynistic, very trans, trans exclusionary and [00:30:00] very much excluding any other way of like, living that is not in this, you know, like heterosexual narrative that people have told themselves as the norm.
So what does even, what do you think, like give me an example of like a divine femininity thing you've encounter out there.
Carino: I feel like I mostly have encountered that in like moon circle stuff. So like new moon or full moon circles of like folks coming together for like setting your intentions or like reflecting on like the last cycle or like whatever that is.
Which like typically tends to be like CIS women. And I'm not saying like all. Of those folks who are like gathering in circle together or like doing this because I think there are some people who like genuinely are having like a really lovely time and like doing good work for themselves and intrenal work.
But like I lived above Sacramento for a little while and I did not have any friends and I was trying to like, I don't know, find somebody that like made sense for me to hang out with. So I went to this like new moon circle that I found on Eventbrite cause I really just like, didn't know--
Loba: You went to an Eventbrite new moon circle?
Carino: Loba,
I didn't know anybody. Like I Tindered through everybody in my small [00:31:00] town of like 200 people. Okay. It doesn't matter. Anyways, so I went to this new moon circle and like it was like chill. Was it like ridiculous? Yes. But that new moon circles are like ridiculous, like this specific, like very white one was. And it was just a bunch of like older women who were like older white women who were like trying to like re find themselves, like in indigeneity, like so strange.
So we were talking about like bleeding and like I was talking about. Bleeding and how like there was like one time where I just wanted to like see if I could connect to the moon and like induced the bleeding and I did on a full moon and I was like, that's pretty cool. And we're all talking about it. So I talked about like my experience and literally like the whole room, like shutdown silent and just like stared at me.
Loba: Wait you don't love bleeding? You don't love your womb? You have no connection to your womb? Is your connection.--
No I mean that's not even what I'm tlaking about. We were talking about like I don't like, yeah, I mean I don't even have like, like a huge like relationship with like the moon and bleeding. Like for me personally, not that I think it's weird to do that.
I just like. Don't, and that's fine with me, but at the time, like I was like exploring that and I was on like a [00:32:00] higher dose of T, looked a lot more masculine. And like, they just looked at me like I was just really like a liar. And I was like, so like confused and like the facilitator was like, knew what the fuck was up.
I was just like, what the fuck? But like, but yeah, it was just, I feel like those kinds of spaces like exist where like, you know, anybody who doesn't like isn't percieved as a cis woman or even as cis straight woman like comes in and like everything kind of shuts down. Like you don't belong here.
Like you're not a part of this divine femininity that you like inherently they are just like only masculine or like some weird shit. Like you just don't belong here. yeah. So I've experienced that and I don't experience that often because I specifically will not engage in spaces where like on your flyers, it looks strange or like, I don't know, somebody that's there, but yeah, I didn't have any friends and so I tried
, I mean, I feel like for me it was similarly, I went to this like, you know, pan indigenous thing.
Honestly, even like, I'm going to say it like sometimes, like even just like, you know, indigenous get togethers. So fo folks actually like are coming from like actual real tradition that are not jst kind of like, you know, like white woman, just like trying to reinvent [00:33:00] indigeneity [coughs] Rosemary Gladstar
Carino: Oh,we're saying names
yeah. So I'm saying names cause I'm upset at that person, but yes.
So I feel like, you know, I've just encountered a lot of just like very much like CIS hetero nonsense, which I think. You know, it's just really hard to talk about, because people sometimes think that that's like the tradition, right? So, yeah, it's, it's hard. And I feel like those are the conversations a lot of people, you know, are having around like, what does it mean to like, you know, remember or tried to like figure out all other ways to talk about this and this circles.
But anyways, so similarly to do to you, I've, I've gone to spaces that I was like, okay, I know this is going to be a. Fucking mess. I know I'm going to have the worst time of my life, but I need to do this in order to get, you know, education. Like I was going, I thought I was going to some midwifery workshop.
I had no money. I was living in a garage and I somehow managed to like fundraise doing workshops in, in LA. I tried my hardest to get to this one training happening in Mexico that I thought was around [00:34:00] midwifery, but I get there and it was the most BS. New age nonsense that was led by this white Brazilian that was calling herself indigenous, never mentioned where she was actually from, looked extremely white and never mentioned anything around like the territory that you know, she's supposedly from.
Like, honestly, it was just, the whole thing was just weird. Like a white Latina person pretending to be indigenous. Basically, and the entire circle was a whole mess, but there was a lot of conversations around like, the divine femininity. That to me was, is like, what the fuck is going on? And like, you know, the people being like, and like, even the facilitator like looked at me once and was like, you know, like, you're weird, like, stop moving.
Like you're weird. And just like all this conversations around like, who gets . To be divine, feminine, feminine, like who gets to like achieve that divine femininity? that is usually like very much like a heterosexual cis woman, right?
And I feel like, honestly, like when I think of divine feminine, like I don't think about cisgender women.
Like honestly, when I think about like divine feminine, I think [00:35:00] about like . Transfemmepeople who have created and like broke through like cis centric femininity and like are fucking Godexes. Like that's what I think about when I think about divine femininity, right?
Loba: Or like water, which none of these bitches are that.
Anyways. So that's the end of this very hateful commentary around divine femininity. And you know, and I know folks that identify with like the term divine femininity and most of them are like. Cis heterosexual woman that you all might not be going around saying, you know, like extremely like transphobic or like, you might not think that they're like trans.
We sort of just stick or transphobic things or like, you know, heterocentric things. But at the end of the day, I feel like, you know, just be careful what you're engaging in because. Most of us, even just looking at somebody like being so into like divine femininity without really acknowledging like, you know, the magic of like, you know, nonsense hetero femme, people, you know, it just, it just looks very sketchy.
So we're going to put this out there and our Instagram, something, you know, if you have anything that you want to add, make sure to comment [00:36:00] on that post. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. On your new age, shit will not save you.
Carino: The last part of our conversation is brought to you by Alchemy organica Alchemy Organica is a queer owned vegan food magic LA based business by Chef Denise Vallejo. Invoking the sacred power of ancient Mesoamerican gastronomy, fine dining popups and catering follow @AlchemyOrganica on Instagram.
Loba: Intimacy Is having, I dunno, you know, like spending time and like having disagreements,
Carino: Learning to communicate. I would say that.
Loba: Because I feel like even though we fought a lot. Through al this --
Carino: We conflict a lot.
Loba: It's like, yeah, we, I, I say fight, but it's more like conflict. you know, we are still doing, is this our third episode? Okay. So we got through this.
Carino: I mean, actually, I feel like you've learned a lot about how to talk to me through this podcast, so that's great.
But, also some of the things that like. For me because like I don't have as much sex as they want to be having. And I find it very hard to find people that want to have sex with me. one thing that I'm working on right now is [00:37:00] like, pleasures in life that are as good as, or better than sex. Like the things that like level was talking about are like Lopez versions of that.
Like to me, I really need more little like immediate gratification with sensation. So I'm finding that, like fresh squeezed orange juice to me is like better than sex and you can disagree, but you need to squeeze more than just yourself and see what happens. or just. Different kind of foods that like feel really good, like burritos.
Loba: There was that. there's this like image that was going around that I made a meme into. I'm going to try to pull it up, so, Oh yeah. Perfect. You have it in the back of your phone,
Carino: I do I'm so supportive.
Loba: I made it into stickers if you're interested. LaLobaLoca.Bigcartel.com but also people that are part of my patron are going to get dips on that.
So you know, just pledge to my Patreon. Anyway, so the actual photo of it is from the Lebanon uprising that happened last year in 2019 and is somebody holding a sign that reads, yes, sex is great, but have you ever fucked the system and . Like, you know, [00:38:00] I mean, I feel like organizers, that have done any kind of like movement work in the past.
Like, you know, like the feeling of like actually mobilizing community and like getting folks together and like, you know, making shit happen. Or even if you're doing like, you know, a little punk show or like a little, I don't know, like cute little, event at a coffee shop. You know, like little tiny events that are kind of like raising awareness and just like doing cute little stuff.
I feel like that in a way, it's also just exciting. like pleasurable to me just makes me feel so good when I just see people talking about like smashing shit. but anyways, so the image and then what I added to it to make it into a meme is that sexual people, Oh my God, nothing is better than sex and asexuals for the revolution.
Yes, sex is great, but have you ever fucked the system?
Carino: Wow. lalobaloca .bigcartel.com.
Loba: Shut the fuck up babe Let's move on. So
Carino: the last thing that we wanted to plug today is a conference that we're going to, called Southwest love Fest, and Loba is going to be, [00:39:00] doing a workshop over there and Loba do you want to tell us a little about that.
Loba: Yes. So I do lots of talks in universities and conferences. I've been doing it for a couple of years now, but I'm actually super excited for this specific conference cause it's a polyamorous conference and it's called. Southwest Love Fest, and it's going to happen in Tucson, Arizona. April, 2020 so basically they asked me, you know, to do a talk on polyamory, and I was like, okay, what should I talk about?
What you're talking about? I don't know. Well then this title came up and the title is in love with plant a demisexual plantsexual take on` polyamory on love because I think it's something that we didn't get to talk about today, which hopefully we're able to do that in the future. Maybe we can get. Special guests for that, is a conversation around, you know, like what is it to be a demisexual person.
like in a polyamorous relationship. Cause I feel like that's also like, it adds, I don't know, just, it adds kind of a complexity to the topic. Mm, kind of. but [00:40:00] anyways, so basically, besides being all of this identify as plantsexual, do you think of as plantsexual? You do?
Carino: Yeah
Loba: . Yeah. so I don't know. I feel like plantsexuality probably can be another different topic, but you wanna maybe tell us very quickly what plant sexually means to you.
I want to know, I didn't know you were a plannt sexual bitch.
Carino: Our first sext was about sunflowers. So you can just Take that elsewhere anyways. plantsexual or like eco sexual eco fetishism I think a lot of people will call. Okay. So when you're Googling these things, like there are some like real strange, like some weird shit, the kinds of I, and that's not what we're talking about, I think.
Right. I think if you're going to Google it and probably Google eco fetishism or like @sacredsadism is something that like on Instagram. Yeah. There are some great folks that. To look into. I think when you usually Google eco sexual, it's, it's like fucking the people. White people fucking during. It's strange.
Anyway. Great for you. I'm sure that probably feels interesting. I don't have external genitalia so, I [00:41:00] wouldn't know. But anyways, point being for me, pltsexual, like eco fetishism to me is just incorporating. Other types of things other than like our bodies and like manmade sex toys to enter into like your sexual relationship with each other or yourselves or even just like finding fulfillment and like pleasure in like the earth, you know, like.
I like, for example, like I remember like I was taking a walk one day and I was like topless on a hike and like some plants were like rubbing against me and are like, shivered a little. Like, that's hot. That's nice. and it didn't have to involve people. so yeah, that's what it means to me. But I know Loba you are a little more plant sexual identifed then me.
Loba: I mean, I feel like, yeah, definitely. To me, I find plants like beautiful and sexy and you know, like. I, yes, I can, I can talk a lot about that. But, to me, plant sexuality besides just like the sexual part of it, it is around like figuring out how to re fall in love with our natural resources, how to refill in [00:42:00] love with our ancestral seeds, have to fall again with like water and other greater than human creatures.
So it's kind of the idea of really like falling back in love with. All of this, you know, really like greater than human beings around us. which. It's kind of, I feel like it's, it's, it's part of a lot of like, indigenous peoples, like framework, like, you know, worldview, a load of like, you know, ceremonies that people do throughout.
And like, I'm even just thinking about like, ceremonies and like the Andean region and like, there's a lot of like, kind of like reverence. Towards for instance, like the mountains around us, like are a lot of us, like we'll know like the names of the months around us or like big, bodies of water around us.
So there's a little kind of like love and even reverence and kind of just like extreme love for earth rights. So for mother earth or for Pachamama, whatever, you know, folks call it in different, in different cultures. So I think to me, plant sexuality is also, like falling in love with those natural resources, which is [00:43:00] not just like, you know, like.
#Plantsexual I'm fucking this mountain right now. Cause I feel like you can think like sometimes a lot of this like sexual stuff or a polyamorous stuff can be very white and can be just such a great turnoff. Honestly. Like you're looking out there like even I used to be more into like bike sex.
There's like a whole thing on like bike sex. I used To make floggers with like biking or tubes and like, there's just so much like kinky stuff you can make with like parts of bikes you can like fuck your bike. Like there's entire like porn bike shit out there.
Like there's a whole world, but it's such a turn off sometimes cause it's like, Oh white and you know CIS and like. Skinny and just things that I'm not necessarilylike turned on by. So, you know, and the same thing happens with like plant sexuality. Sometimes it's like hashtag plant sexuality and it's like the same, like, you know, people that I'm not necessarily attracted to or would never want to see like fucking a rock, you know, because I feel [00:44:00] like that's not how I do, like, cause I feel like to me, you know, rocks are also like life beings.
So like I, that's another conversation for another time. But basically to me, The idea of this workshop that I'm doing at this conference in love with a plant, a demisexual palntsexual take on polyamory, and love. It's also around kind of like reframing what love means and what reverence means. And to me, like, you know, part of it is also like falling back in love with all of these things that we have taken for granted that we have learned to take for granted through.
Like, you know, Western miseducation right. So really like, I feel like I see a lot ofpotential and like falling back in love with, all of this beautiful and that, you know, natural resources, seeds, even like our ancestral foods. you know, the weeds that grow in the side of the road that are extremely medicinal because there's just so much power in that.
Also, just to kind of like create a shift in the way that we think about, you know, extractivism and like extractivism mentality and the mentality that we're just there to kind of like take take [00:45:00] take, and also, you know. The conversation too around like what consent means too when, when, when we're talking about land, right?
Cause I feel like the consent consent culture, when we think about it, it's very much like human to human but. When think about consent culture to, you know, around like major corporations taking over, you know, entire mountain. So like. Breaking them down. and you know, like, especially like folks are doing like Dawn defense, really talking about what that means.
Like, what, what, how does consent look like for indigenous people? How does consent look like for, you know, the land itself, et cetera, et cetera. As I feel like, I also like too, you know, I'm a Libra, so I'm, what was this thinking about random shit. But that's also part of the workshop that I'm going to be, And facilitating at Southwest Love Fest. Then I'm also going to be recording it and putting it in my
Both: PATREON
Loba: , of course, my patreon. It's like, yes.
Carino: Okay, so final thoughts. asexuality is as normal as allosexuality or being a sexual person. Not all humans are sexual beings, and that's totally normal. It is absolutely normal to love and engage [00:46:00] with and commit to someone.
If you were in an Allo sexual and asexual relationship like ours, it is also normal to not to know that you don't want that and also not engage with that cause you shouldn't hurt people. and also I think you should find a Creek. Put your hand on a rock and let the water run over it and find pleasures that are just as beautiful and important to you as sexual objects.
We are wild weeds podcast growing ungovernable relations. my name is Carino
Loba: , my name is Loba
Carino: And we're super, super grateful to have you sit with us through this conversation. And we would love for y'all to check out our Instagram and comment on the posts that we're going to make with Loba's sticker that's available.
Loba is website, and please. Right, a review on whatever it is that you're listening to us on. Check out our Instagram, check out our Patreon donate, at our Venmo app. Wild Weeds podcast. We really want to make this conversation sustainable and continue it through popular education and really just be able to give folks access to things like this where they don't [00:47:00] feel so abnormal and feel normal.
Loba: I mean it's also good to be abnormal. but Not cause you don't want to fuck people. Yeah. Yeah. We love you.