Speaker 1: you are about to listen to could contain explicit
language and offensive content.
These HR experts' views are not representative of their past,
present or future employers.
If you have ever heard, my manager is unfair to me.
I need you to reset my HR portal password.
Or Can I write up my employee for crying too much?
Speaker 2: Welcome to our little safe zone.
Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast by two HR professionals
who want to help you get through the workday by saying
everything you're thinking, but say it out loud.
I'm Warren.
I'm Cece it out loud I'm Warren, I'm Cece and I'm apologizing
for the horrible, horrible audio in the last two episodes.
So big secret, sometimes we record more than one at a time,
so we can actually live life a little, and apparently I was.
I'm assuming I was using my headphone microphones rather
than my awesome Samsung Q2A or whatever it is, but anyways,
awful audio.
Hopefully today this will be better.
I'm looking at a little chart of my voice and it's getting up
to the yellows, so I'm thinking it might be better this time.
So apologies apologies, apologies.
Speaker 1: And I want to apologize because I'm not sure
if it was me or the mic situation last week, but I
didn't realize how loud I talk and I should have taken a clue
when I talked to my husband the other day and he was like you're
so loud, it's just the two of us, but I'm a projector, so I
apologize if I blew your eardrums off because I was
listening to the last recording and I'm like gosh, my mic
technique needs to get better.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of people being, I think I
mentioned before, we just started watching Modern Family
and after a few episodes my wife has to turn it off.
She says I can't stand all the yelling.
I can't stand all the yelling.
So we're almost through with that show, so we're going to be
on to our next very, very soon.
So well, we actually did our homework a little bit this week
and have some topics to talk about.
But I also wanted to bring up one other thing, a social media
sour grapes thing.
I'm to, I think I don't think I know I saved it sour grapes
yeah, so I.
There's a new car.
Scout Motors is coming out with new cars in 2026 or maybe 2027,
and so I've been following Scout Motors online because I'm
most likely going to be buying one.
I don't buy the car the first year it comes out, but the
second year I'm going to buy one of them because I really like
everything I've seen about it.
Well, I follow them on all their little social medias.
This one dude they're talking about the new two Scout vehicles
that have come out.
One's an SUVv, one's a pickup truck and he's.
And one thing I like about scout motors they're engaging
with the people who follow them on social media and if you make
a comment, a lot of times they're going to comment back
and they answer questions and it's, you know, for a product
that's not on the market yet might not be out of the market
for two years.
I I think it's really, really cool.
So I'm following him on social media.
And this one dude he gets online and he's listed as a top
fan.
This is from Facebook.
It's been a real disappointing week for Scout.
As an experienced engineer working the automotive, I was
discarded as a potential employee.
From what I feel, it's just a simple difference on how
automakers launch their new vehicles.
I keep my pride.
However, scout needs to understand their loss and I was
like maybe this dude is just completely deep.
You know, maybe you didn't get hired this time you plug into
the next opportunity, or maybe when I'm recruiting I've had I
can't count the number of candidates they didn't work this
job.
Right now I call them back when I have another and guess who
wouldn't be getting a call back.
It's like I said this that guy, he, this, this company, they're
active on it there, they respond , they, they, they.
They didn't respond to his message.
A lot of other people did.
It looks like are you disappointed because you weren't
hired?
It sounds like it's not Scout's loss, but people are.
You know just why?
Just you know why?
A lot of the stuff are on this?
Because Scout is an electric vehicle and a lot of people are.
You know.
Oh too bad, this is an EV, it would be great if it had a Turbo
6 and all these other things.
People are disparaging it, but they're in there sometimes.
Oh well, we do.
They respond in kind, but anyways, I just thought really,
why go on their product page to bitch and moan about it?
Anyways, I was saying he's an electrical engineer.
I hire electrical engineers.
He's going to make me think toys about.
You know, if our recruiter is I , she sees me on all her resume
submissions and I peak at about 60, 70% of them.
I don't read the resumes but I'm like, oh, that's a good
resume.
I, you know, I want to say, hey , this is a good resume, I like
this good work and things like that.
I don't, I'm not involved in the hiring process, I just like
to look and so I would probably say, whoa, let's talk about this
dude before we get too far along.
So that's awesome.
Social media.
Speaker 1: There is a.
There's a podcast for anyone non HR related that I just like
to throw out there.
If you, if you're a big fan of examining the psychology of what
people put in reviews and kind of the stupidity that people
write in reviews online, a great podcast is my stupid or your
stupid opinion Great.
And kind of the stupidity that people write in reviews online A
great podcast is your stupid opinion Great.
I'm not affiliated with them.
I enjoy it every week, so imagine all that stuff, but just
a podcast.
So if you're looking for something non-HR related to
cleanse your palate, your stupid opinion is great.
Speaker 2: I just wrote it down.
I'm going to check that out.
As I tell you, I recently went through and I purged my podcast
list.
It's things that I'm not enjoying anymore for various
reasons, and one of my very, very favorite podcasts overall,
by topic.
It's like their audio quality is so much and they have credits
and our producer is da-da-da-da .
I'm like your producer must be a six-year-old.
This is even my.
Our last two weeks episodes sound a lot better than any of
their episodes and I'm just so close to calling it quits as
it's.
It's so I've turned off episodes in the middle.
That I'm interested in is.
I just can't listen to it anymore but they, they don't
record anymore.
Speaker 1: what is it?
The oh, oh the podcast?
It's an HR podcast.
Speaker 2: HR Famous.
Speaker 1: HR Famous Tim.
Speaker 2: Sackett, and JD.
And oh gosh, who's the third?
Lee Lee Lee.
Speaker 1: So I loved their content.
Yes, but Lee had to get a microphone.
Like I would listen to that podcast and I'm one to talk
because I'm like shouting into a microphone and I apologize if I
was doing that, but but I think she was like recording from
like old fashioned plug in earbuds because I just wanted to
scream every time I listened.
I'm like everything you're saying is valid and amazing,
great content, fun.
Get a better mic.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: You're a VP of a company, you can afford a better
mic.
Speaker 2: Well, I think they would do their podcast.
I remember him saying once upon a time and they just went off
the air and I am very upset about that but they would just
do it either early in the morning before they start their
day, or during lunch or something that you know they
were just squeezing it in when they can.
But you know, I'm down to I don't know how many podcasts on
my three, six, nine, 12, 15.
I'm down to like 18 podcasts, but I still have on here hostile
work environment and where they haven't recorded in forever.
Surfing corporate they haven't recorded in forever.
And then you have but yeah, I've just purged a whole bunch,
just got rid of them.
But everyone's one like server not serving corporate well, they
did the same thing.
But also work environment they went there for like two years
and then all of a sudden, because I still had it in my
list, I'm listening and the next one up is is them.
I'm like whoa great, and then they're.
So I keep it there, but I hope that they'll come back.
So, mark and Kate, if you ever listen to us at all, we had Kate
on one time.
Bring it back, please.
But anyways.
Speaker 1: So I'm laughing because, speaking of which and
then we can get into the meaty HRE conversation.
But I did have a moment where I was just being very chatty.
I think my ADHD got the best of me and I overshared and I ended
up telling my boss about this and he wrote it down.
So if my manager's listening, hi and don't hold anything
against me, Thanks.
Speaker 2: Oh, so your boss knows you're on the show now.
Speaker 1: Oh so your boss knows you're on the show now.
He was like asking about like HR podcasts to listen to and I
was like wow.
Speaker 2: Promote.
Speaker 1: There we go.
And then afterward I was like was that smart?
But it's fine, I don't.
It's not like.
I mean, I speak very highly of my company and my manager, so
we're fine, we're fine.
I speak very highly of my company and my manager, so we're
fine.
Speaker 2: We're fine.
Well, my assistant found out I don't share it with people at
work that I do a podcast.
My assistant found out as we went to a conference and I ran
into several old co-workers who worked with Patrick and I and
they were there when we first announced we're doing a podcast
and they listen regularly.
So Lisa, desiree, hey, but they start talking to the podcast
and then Anna, my assistant, starts asking you have a podcast
?
I'm like, yeah, and so I don't go out blurting it about, but
I'm recording one of our open enrollment sessions right now.
I'm using our podcast software to edit it because it's better
than it's.
I know how to use it and I can do it quickly.
When we recorded one of our episodes, I can get it out to
the the employees pretty quickly .
So, yeah, that's so.
I'm not hiding it, but I'm not like promoting it at work, but I
will be promoting it at the Virginia Sherm conference in
middle of April.
So if you're going to be down here, look for me.
I'll be handing out little cards with a QR code and
something like that.
So, yay, let's see.
Before we get into the meat of our subject, let's go ahead and
do our thank yous to our Patreon supporters Hallie, the original
Jaded HR rock star, bill and Mike.
So thank you all very much.
Your support is very much appreciated because we are, like
I think I said, maybe in December we renewed our
subscription to the recording and editing software.
Thanks to you.
Thank you for that.
So, yep, that's, that's what we have going on.
So the topic of the day and we're going to try to keep this
as apolitical as we can of the day and we're going to try to
keep this as apolitical as we can it's gonna be all the
wonderful fun executive elders flying out of the, the White
House right now and the the wonderful time it's creating for
HR professionals.
Speaker 1: So what a time what a time.
Speaker 2: I just wanna?
Speaker 1: I just wanna let everyone know that I am drinking
in old-fashioned cuz that is the time I am having.
Speaker 2: It's empty, it is gone.
We're going to have to pause.
We're now pausing for a short commercial break, but yeah, so
we're not going to, you know, get too political.
As I, you know, I've mentioned before, I despise when I'm
listening for whatever content they want to get, especially if
I'm in a sport, if I'm listening to sports podcasts and all of a
sudden, I don't want to hear your politics in my sports at
all period, end of story.
But anyways, yeah, so where to?
Which executive order?
Which shakeup, which change do you want to start with today?
We could do a week's worth of episodes on just the first, you
know week of executive orders and their impact on HRs.
Speaker 1: Seriously, yeah, we can talk about the EEOC piece.
Okay, because I want to preface this by saying I live in talent
management.
I know enough to be dangerous.
A lot of me is just thinking out loud.
Do not hold it against me.
I'm an old-fashioned deep and yeah, I'm yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can actually see it both ways.
I think there's a lot of overreaction from people about
some of these executives.
Some of them need to be reacted to as they are.
Some of them there's some overreaction to, but and, and
some of them, it's like you know , regard.
This is probably as political as I get.
If trump says today is tuesday, february 4th, which it is,
somebody's gonna get their ass chapped so badly about that
because it's the most marvelous day and this is a great day and
the fourth is always the greatest day.
You know he speaks weirdly in superlatives all the time, but
even if he's saying something that's absolutely factual, he's
gonna he's gonna piss somebody off.
You know, something like today's Tuesday, and I've seen a
lot of that stuff to the point where really, people okay, it's
time to come up for air a little bit, but anyways, yeah I give,
I give people grace, just because you know people are
scared, they're worried, yeah I, I and I can understand that,
but, yeah, it's so.
The eoc so with and I learned this my our labor and employment
attorneys have been doing guest webinars, like three a week
lately, and I haven't done them all.
Some of them are like immigration and things like that
.
We don't have to worry about immigration where I work, but
the executive order for government contractors, which
goes straight into the EEOC and the Affirmative Action, is
something that I'm paying very, very close attention to and so
it is interesting just to preface that like so, Warren,
you work for a company that is a government contractor, yes, and
I work for a company that is private equity, private sector.
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, there's like there's that
there's a difference there.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, there's like there's that
there's a difference there.
Yes, yeah, because, like even our contracts and our president,
the president of our company and I were taught we've had in
the past week we've had know, does the executive order mean
that poof?
Normally, when a government contractor does any change like
the slightest change, like oh well, okay, we're going to need
one more software developer than you bid for for this, so it
goes through a contract mod and it's a whole big thing to do
what you know.
Hey, I need another software developer.
Okay, fine, it's not that easy.
But so to take the affirmative action out, are they going to do
a whole contract mod for this?
And you know, one of the revocations of and I don't know
the numbers of these executive orders, but the one that's one
of the many that's causing a stir is the revocation of
affirmative action in the workplace.
So it's really interesting and it's funny.
I learned about it first on my way, like Thursday I did a
webinar with our attorneys, and then Friday I was listening to
Good Morning HR with Mike Coffey and he's discussed the same
thing, but I didn't know this Affirmative action, eeo is not a
law and it was actually an executive order by Johnson.
Speaker 1: LBJ.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that created it .
So because it was done by executive order, any president
can go on and say, well, this one doesn't count anymore.
And that's pretty much exactly what happened.
But the difference is, when it comes to veterans and
disabilities, those are codified laws.
The ADA is an actual law that the president it has to go
through Congress to change the veterans.
The protections are actual law.
So you know, that's why this all happened.
Speaker 1: Do you know where country of origin is still?
Speaker 2: Do you know where country of origin is still?
Because I remember it's race, gender, country of origin and
then there's disability and stuff like that.
So I that pretty much destroys your affirmative action plan.
You can still report on veteran status and disability, but race
and gender are the ones that are under the target.
My next webinar I'll throw that in the question and answer
sessions.
I'm doing another later this week with the attorneys, as
they're just rapid firing these things out.
Like I said, there's been three a week since last week, so but
yeah, I'll throw that question out there.
But it's it's really, it's really interesting.
And one of the things as an affirmative action employer EEO,
affirmative action employer the executive order requires us to
remove.
Well, the first executive order required us to have that little
blurb at the bottom of your job postings.
We are an affirmative action equal employment opportunity.
We don't da, da, da, da da.
Now employers have like 90 days to be compliant and our
philosophy is we're going to wait till like day 85 to do
anything.
And I'm being serious, I laugh.
I'm being serious because I would be very surprised if a
judge didn't step in and either just pause it or just throw it
out completely.
Some group out there is going to find a sympathetic judge.
That's what they do.
You think that these things mysteriously end up in certain
judges' laps?
No, they find the district.
Okay, we need you to bring up this lawsuit in this district so
we can have this judge.
And yeah, that's exactly what they're doing.
But it's going to be interesting.
But but are we?
We're still going to be required to?
Hey, we don't discriminate against veterans or veterans
status of disability as well.
Speaker 1: But in the other part and I don't know if it's the
same executive order or not is the ending of illegal DEI
programs and I've covered so I think this is where I'm so, this
is where I'm like, personally struggling and this is so like
the so back to like the EEOC stuff.
Like those things were brought into place because bad behaviors
were happening and I think I I feel like we put guardrails I'm
gonna say this very kindly, but I'm gonna say it very bluntly we
put guardrails in for the lowest common denominator, we
put guardrails in for the, for people the redneck good old boy
who act, I like, ah, so basically, like there are, there
are things and I and I I would hate to think and I will say
this because I want to clarify this is not at my current
company, this is at past companies, but I don't know.
So I was in charge of recruiting , essentially for my new boss's
boss.
It was a really fun position to be put into.
It was like the new head of HR for a company and they just
basically said Christina, you're the only person here that can.
That's recruiting, so you find it.
So I was like recruiting for my manager's boss, that's
recruiting, so you find it.
So I was like recruiting for my manager's boss.
And I remember we were in a room and the the president and the
owner of that company said with a dead ass serious face well, I,
it was.
Oh, by the way, backtrack, it was two candidates.
We were down to a white male and a white female, and he said
that the female candidate, the woman candidate, drove up in a
red BMW to her interview.
That's the car she chose to drive.
And he said I have an issue with that because that doesn't
really fit with the culture here , to which my jaw dropped on the
floor, because these biases happen and I don't think people
understand and I'm speaking as a white woman, right, these
biases happen.
And I'm speaking as a white woman, right, these biases
happen and I witnessed it and thankfully, I mean I'm going to
put a little asterisk next to this.
I was an itty bitty girl, like I just started, like I didn't
have the backbone to stand up to the president of the company,
but thankfully someone in the room did, and then I had the
strength to then back it up.
But the question was, I don't really think that the car she
drives is going to affect the way in which she does her work.
And long story short, spoiler alert we ended up or they ended
up deciding on the mail and guess who showed up to work?
Guess what, he showed up driving to work.
Speaker 2: A red BMW, please, please.
Speaker 1: But like.
So these are the behaviors that happen.
So I would hate to think that, because we're no longer, like,
supposed to do it, that we're going to start reverting back,
because they happen.
And I know, like it's one of those lessons that I learned to
be a better advocate, because in hindsight I was like, but at
the same time you're young, you're new to career, you don't
want to like piss off the president of the company, but at
the same time, like I'm glad someone else in there with
tenure, what did speak up, because that shit pissed me off
and I hear it and I I hear these little micro like oh, it's like
, oh, and I would hate to think that someone would be passed up
for a promotion because they're pregnant, or someone's passed up
for a promotion because they're too old, or someone is passed
up for like.
These are the things that worry me, because now there's no
protection against that and I know we'd like to think that
racism is dead, but racism and misogyny is alive and well.
So like we're taking away these things and we're not doing
anything to protect our workers.
And spoiler alert today I don't know if you saw the bill to
like get rid of, but that's another thing to like.
These are, as an HR professional, like I'm not
getting political.
This is more morally no like.
Yeah, I get.
Like you're going to deregulate OSHA, like health and safety,
and next we're going to have 80 hour work weeks because we're
going to get rid of the 40-hour work week.
We don't need regulation about that.
So we keep chiseling away at these little things that are
going to take us back to the triangle fire and people are
going to die at work.
And people are going to die at work.
And I know it sounds like I'm catastrophizing but at the same
time, I don't think I am, because these things were put
into place for a reason.
Speaker 2: Oh, they absolutely were, because, just like all
these, you hear these things and you think, oh, that's a stupid
law.
I'll go back to season one, one of the first episodes Patrick
and I did, that's when the Crown Act got passed and you can hear
me talking and say what a stupid waste of time to make a
dumbass law.
Who the hell discriminates on the basis of hair.
I was just like why, why?
Why it wasn't six months until there was a case brought up on
it, and I'm like I literally just can't fathom that.
I really and I just I don't know, and you can listen to me
on that episode.
This is so stupid.
I don't know why they did it.
It really fired me up back then , but then it fired me up just
as much.
It was within a year if it wasn't six months is within a
year that there were court cases coming up about violations of
the Crown Act.
Speaker 1: I'm like yeah, really , you know, because people do it
.
You have to make regulations based on the stupidest person,
and I hate to say it like that, but that's basically or I'm
sorry, not the stupid the most ignorant person.
You have to make regulation because ignorance is a choice
you have to make.
You have to make those rules for the most ignorant population
and I'm sorry, I said it.
You can come at you, come at my Instagram if you want.
I'll probably just delete it, but whatever, fuck it.
Speaker 2: No, I absolutely agree.
And oh, I spoke about hostile work environment.
When the show was on, they would talk about these cases and
these people won a lawsuit because one person refused to.
Every day, they wore a sticker on their shirt showing how many
days the plant had been with an accident, and when they got them
666 days somebody refused and then they kept firing the person
.
Hey, okay, don't wear the stupid fucking sticker.
Okay, whatever, oh, your mind fell off, or whatever.
But that was one of them and they sued and they lost.
I mean, the employer lost, if I recall correctly.
And another one, the person who wouldn't scan.
Do biometric scanning something to have to do with the devil?
It was some, I don't even remember that one.
But if the the the devil's going to come through you on a
fingerprint scanner as you're clocking in or out at this place
, okay, you're cuckoo, but and I think, religious- accommodation
yeah, they, they won so yeah, but you make these dumb laws,
like you said, for the lowest common denominator, and I don't
know why I'm shocked, as jaded and cynical as I am, but to see
things like this happen, it's like how, what, why, really?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very weird .
I will say, oh, that's the other thing, because I thought
religion was part of that.
So, like the protection of religion in the workplace,
wasn't that part of the EEOC rollback?
No, Okay, that wasn't.
Speaker 2: No yeah, not that I'm aware of that.
That wasn't the two webinars I've done and the various email
things I've gotten.
Nobody's talked about religion in this, but you know, religion
has become stronger.
It used to be the most de minimis, oh yeah, we can't do
that.
If it was anything other than eh, we know someone feel like it
, you know you could get away with it, but now religion is,
and I said we're going to be apolitical, I'm trying to be a
religious as well, but now religion.
You know people are coming up with these whacked out religions
and it doesn't even have to be a religion, it just has be a
sincerely held belief.
Well, I sincerely, sincerely believe some people are fucked
up in the brain and I'm not gonna, I don't need to
accommodate their, their situation well, a reasonable
accommodation, right.
Speaker 1: So like what's reasonable and I think that's.
I mean it's broad, but it's kind of broad for a reason yeah,
it is.
It is like if you're required to come to work on the weekends
and then you say, hey, I, you know, I practice a religion.
I can't do that.
Well, like this job, the requirement of this job is to be
here, like you know, like accommodations have to be
reasonable to the function of the company.
So I think, like that's another thing.
I think a lot of people who don't understand HR get their
panties in a wad because they say things like DEI, hire.
Don't say that that's a weird thing to say.
But then they'll say things like I mean, I literally have
been consuming so much social media over the past few days and
I will literally see people defining DEI and I'm not
exaggerating when I say this, this is like a direct quote.
People will be like, oh, dei is literally hiring someone who is
qualified over someone who is qualified because of the color
of their skin.
And I'm like where are you fucking learning this?
And at the same time I'm like they're learning from social
media.
But that's the thing, and it's like what side of social media
are you learning this from?
Because it's not in the crevices that I go to like not
what I'm learning.
Your algo is not.
Yeah, it's not where my algorithm's going.
But at the same time, it's like people don't understand that
DEI really, and we could talk about the DEI thing next.
Yeah, these illegal DEI practices which, again, are very
broadly termed.
What does that even effing mean ?
But people think DEI means color of skin, when DEI is like
a broad umbrella of a lot of things.
It could be your race, it could be your gender, it could be
your sexuality, it could be the fact that you're over 40.
It could be the fact that you're a veteran, it can be.
I mean like literally everyone checks one of those boxes and
it's just one of those things where it's like you don't know
it, but you've probably benefited from either DEI,
education, dei stuff and people.
Again, ignorance is a choice, but like they just don't choose
to Google anything other than what they're being fed, so it's
incorrect information.
Speaker 2: But at the same time.
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting here like empathy, managing to
different personality, like managing to different these are
all things that are under that DEI umbrella.
So what now?
Is situational leadership going to be a legal DEI because it's
telling you that you need to manage, you need to change your
management style to where the person is?
Is that now going to be illegal DEI?
It's such a broad term and it's so foolish.
Speaker 2: It is, and there's two sides of this one too.
So you have I've said any number of times before you had
all these shyster companies and some government agencies got
caught up in this, these really bad DEI programs that you know,
if you're a white male, you sit in the back of the room and
you're not allowed to ask questions or anything.
There's been things like that.
Speaker 1: That's not inclusive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and hell.
Look at that guy from the Phillies game, or not?
The Phillies, the Eagles game.
He's a DEI.
You know, all these companies bought into these shysty DEI
programs.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Go back to what you were saying .
Did you say he was a DEI professional?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy from the Eagles game that we talked
about two weeks ago or so.
He was a DEI.
He worked for a DEI consulting firm.
Worked past tense.
Speaker 1: This might be the old-fashioned talking, but thank
God for the internet, thank God for the internet.
I love my favorite pastime the past few weeks is watching
people just get burned for the stupid shit they say on the
internet.
Because the internet, ladies and gentlemen, is forever.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, things have evolved.
I know for a fact the things I was saying in the 80s and 90s
would not fly at all today.
You know 80s, 90s, everything was gay people and we're not.
You know, it didn't matter If you didn't like something, it
was gay.
I don't want to do that.
Oh, that's gay.
I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1: Or on the other side of it, straight, like oh, that's
straight, like that was the opposite, and it was like, yeah,
I totally get it.
Like, oh, that's so gay, oh, that's straight.
Like it doesn't age well, and it was slang that was used it.
Speaker 2: We used the r word, the, the dreaded r word.
All everybody was, I'll say it retarded.
That's retarded.
If it wasn't gay, it was retarded.
Speaker 1: But you know, anyways , we're going way off topic, but
I will say there's a point to that though, because like, yes,
we hear these things, we learn from these things and we don't
do those things once we learn them right, yeah, exactly, and
it's not like a personal affront for me.
For some people it might be, but if someone just like
corrects you saying like, hey, that's offensive or hey, you
should consider a different word .
And then you adjust.
And we were talking about how we're doing those extra, those
episodes of, like the office rewatches.
Speaker 2: Oh yes.
Speaker 1: And next week we're going to be doing or not next
week, but the following week.
Speaker 2: We're recording next week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're recording the following week.
We're recording next week.
Yeah, we're recording the following week.
We're going to be.
Oh yeah, I forget.
We'll talk about our schedule afterward.
Yeah, that's production, but we're talking about the second
episode, which is Diversity Day, and I'm laughing because you
know that was aired what?
20 years ago or something.
Yeah, and I mean even the stuff in there.
I don't think I told you this when we chatted last time, but
if you watch it on, if you watch the Office on Comedy Central,
they go from the first episode, they skip Diversity Day and go
to the third episode.
Yes, I noticed that like a weekend or so ago and I was like
, did they just skip Diversity Day Because there's?
some stuff in there that's like not great but at the same time
like it's kind of like the archie bunker of it like they're
kind of facing things straight on and there's, in the way they
were, some value to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in fact, okay, the, the thing that comedy
central changed and we're going down another rabbit hole.
You know when he's in trouble with Phyllis and the only thing
I'm worried about is getting a boner and but they, that scene,
that scene is cut out on anyways , we'll get to.
We'll get to those episodes later.
But the de trying to wrangle the cats in here on the add
brains we have.
But so the, the executive order , which is unfathomable because
you read it, and we're going to get rid of these illegal DEI
programs.
Okay, and I can understand.
Yeah, it's probably going to get rid of the shitey illegal
ones that are just flash in a pan and some government agencies
got caught up in buying these as well.
So that, amen, amen, I'm all for.
But the dei is so misunderstood and I shared an article with
you from last year.
You know I'm a I'm a little bit of a fan boy of mark cuban.
I I love what he's trying to do in the, the drug industry and
the medical industry as well.
I'm not a basketball fan, a professional definitely, and I
haven't watched college games in I don't know how long, but I
really like what he's doing there.
But he put on Twitter or X or whatever you want to call it.
Now he was like yeah, di only comes into play and I'm
paraphrasing him when I have two equal candidates, then I'm
probably going to give the nod to the minority or the protected
class person, whatever it is that he said.
And it's so funny because the chairman of the EEOC replied to
them and said well, actually, mark, that's illegal.
You're giving preference based on race, which is illegal.
So, and and okay, I'm a fan I've admitted I'm a fan boy, so
maybe I'm giving him a pass on this, but I think so many people
think that's what DEI is.
Let's do this, because, no, you're not doing it.
You're making the playing field level so everybody can have
that equal shot.
And if that equal shot means it's going to an old white guy
like me, then that's how the cookie crumbles.
But the playing field was open for anybody and everybody and it
wasn't a rigged game, and that's what you're trying to do
with your DEI.
And maybe you are trying to focus on hey, we do need to get
more fill-in-the-blank, underrepresented group in there.
So you do that at your recruiting thing.
We're going to advertise in these forums and these websites
and things like that that tend to track more fill-in-the-blank
demographic that you're looking for and we're going to do more
outreach for this type of group that were underrepresented.
There's nothing wrong with that .
You're reaching out.
You'll get more applicants.
They're going to have to go to the same rigmarole that
everybody else goes through and, as long as the laying field is
fair, yeah, you got more applicants of this protected
class than you, probably not more than the non-protected
classes, but you had more than you would have if you didn't do
those outreach programs and things like that.
So that's really what DEI is really misunderstood with.
Getting rid of it I'm not a fan of because, once again,
sometimes you don't know or you don't.
You know in the back of your head but you don't realize until
it's put in your face that, hey , this is wrong.
But I'm like, okay, but that's the person you're trying to
protect from and if you're a decent organization, you have
people in there.
That's going to put the brain.
A manager's going to say something stupid.
Like that manager's going to say, oh, I don't want a woman
between 20 and 40 because I don't want a loser to having a
baby, I don't want this.
Speaker 1: Or man managers are going to say that and especially
they're going to put it in emails too.
And then I'm going to be like why.
Speaker 2: I've heard this from a few people.
I didn't experience it in my third-party recruiting thing,
but I've heard hiring managers will say the most ridiculous
stuff to a third-party recruiter because they think it
exonerates them.
Oh, we're using this agency headhunter or whatever this
recruiter to hire us so I can tell them yeah, I don't want a
woman between 20 and 40.
I want to make sure someone's going to be here for a while.
Plus, have you looked at the longevity rates of people?
The average person's only staying in a job like less than
three years.
now, I think, is the time, so make the best out of that three
years, and if you're doing well yeah, if you're doing well as an
employer, maybe they're going to stay for four or five, maybe
they'll do more.
But anything over over three years is I'm coming up on six at
my, my current job.
But anything over three years is like oh right, you're winning
.
You're winning the game right now.
Take, take the win and I live.
You know, outside of Virginia beach, the world's largest
military complex, we have military spouses coming going
all the time and around here you're not going to.
You say, oh, we're not going to hire a military, you're going
to be gone in three years.
Why would we hire you?
You would be blacklisted every which way to Sunday.
But you know, just take it.
Hey, I'm going to get the best I can out of this person for the
next three years.
Give them a good working environment and that's all you
have to do well, I'm sorry, I think.
Speaker 1: I think millennials are the ones that discovered the
secret that if you leave a company and go to another one,
your pay increase.
Like your, your pay is gonna jump.
So I think that's a thing of like, um, if you stay at a
company for a long time.
Your potential for income is so incremental.
But if you leave you can get that sweet sweet negotiation and
you can actually, over the end of time, make more money.
So that's not a dei problem or anything.
That's just companies needing to promote or pay merit better
or whatever.
Speaker 2: So yeah, keep up with the industry.
But anyways, where I was going, people don't understand DEI,
what it is, what it means.
They don't understand affirmative action, what it is
and what it means.
Dei is basically opening the door and letting people know
what some acceptable behaviors are.
Is I mean, honestly, in this day and age, people maybe my age
and older, when you're having to deal with bathrooms and
transgender issues that I I wouldn't have even known what a
trans was 20 years ago, that you hear my, my kids are they.
They have trans friends and they're right.
It's nothing to them, but to me it would be like, oh, you know,
at their age I'd be like what the hell is this?
Speaker 1: and I that's just the world.
Speaker 2: I was in.
Speaker 1: I was in the Kansas City Airport and I am just going
to give a shout out to them because they have the best
gender neutral bathroom.
Well, first, it's the only one I've ever experienced, but it
was so great it was like.
So I don't know if you know this, but women's bathrooms get
a little backed up and I don't want to wait on a line if I have
to go to the bathroom.
Okay, so, kansas City had these gender neutral bathrooms and,
honestly, it was like a common area sink, which is fine.
I don't mind washing my hands next to a man.
Let's wash hands together, let's practice hygiene.
But like the door, they weren't like traditional stalls, they
were like doors.
That was like ceiling to floor.
It was exceptional.
I was in and out so fast and I never felt threatened and I peed
, I washed my hands, I got on my flight.
My life is no different than it was before.
Just, you know, it's really not .
It's nothing groundbreaking, and I am just thankful to the
Kansas City Airport for allowing me to be able to pee and move
on.
Thank you.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, you might be a little young for this.
I don't know if the show Ally McBeal there was such a hubbub
that they had.
What was that in the early?
Was that early nineties, mid ninetiess?
Speaker 1: it was like it was mid to late 90s, but you're
right, they had they had an open restroom thing and people were
in uproar.
Speaker 2: I mean I don't, there wasn't facebook back then.
I don't know how I know so much of people were up.
I just remember people being in uproar and I didn't like.
I didn't watch ali mcbeal, I didn't really care for it.
I I like Jane Krakowski.
She's funny as hell in so many other things, but I didn't watch
the show.
But I know people were fired up about the bathroom situation in
their office and I'm like okay.
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking about anything, man, I just want
to go to the bathroom.
Let me just go do that.
I don't care who's doing it next to me, they might care.
I don't.
Like I have experienced a situation Like so.
People always say DEI is just to like, pander, to like certain
groups, and it's like.
I have seen it work in the opposite way.
Where there was, I might have told the story before.
I'm sorry I might be becoming my mother sharing the same
stories.
If you're new here, congratulations, it's new.
I same company as before with the, the president, or the the
owner.
So the head engine, one of the head engineers, he was an older
gentleman, like he at the time was in his 70s.
He loved what he did and he was good at what he did and he he
was just there and he was doing a great job and he had a team.
He was hiring a new engineer and I remember him looking at
the candidates and there was mathematical assessments they
had to take as part of the interview process and the female
scored lower on those assessments based on, like, just
the scores.
Like we had a few female candidates, one of which scored
lower and basically, like this is the standard, like I know
this is a piece of the puzzle, but you know, let's keep that in
mind.
And I do remember him walking into my office and him saying
well, we can like lower the score a little bit because you
know, women aren't that strong at math compared to men.
To which I said these are the standards we set, these are the
standards that we follow for everyone.
If she does not meet the standard, she does not meet the
standard.
So, like I get it, like I do, because that like and see.
Speaker 2: Maybe he thinks he's being a good person, not by
saying that, right, and you mentioned he's a seven.
Maybe that's a generational thing.
It's a generational thing.
Speaker 1: He's being polite.
Speaker 2: He's trying to be accommodating.
Maybe he has a hotspot as this woman.
I don't know.
Speaker 1: Daisy, he did Honestly, she was a cutie and he
was like older and I'm like it could have been, like I'm not
saying no, but who knows it could have.
Speaker 2: It could have been.
Maybe it wasn't as as wholesome as I was trying to make it out
to be as well, but that's that's another thing.
And I, you know, I want to know and you were discussing this
off-air a bit which got my squirrelly brain going
Harassment, because our training is Harassment plus DEI and we
have a company that does it for us and it's a good program, but
is this going to impact harassment?
You know, is it going to be?
Oh, you need to expect to.
You know, be oogled at or ogled at, whatever the word is.
Or, you know, get your ass slapped every once in a while in
the office place and things like that.
And you know where is this line going to be?
Because, you know, is it going to be one of those?
What do they call it?
The broken window.
First, you have this goes oh, nobody cares, you just broke one
window.
Next, you break another window oh, nobody cares.
Next, the building doesn't have any windows because you've
broken all the windows, maya.
So what's next?
Speaker 1: So my mom used to work in an office environment in
the 80s in the 80s and I do remember she was helping with
like, with interviews or something for I don't know what
position, but in any case, her boss basically said something
along the lines of I really like this one candidate, who
happened to be a very attractive female, and she was like what
was it about it that you liked?
And he said I liked the way she walked away from me.
And I'm just saying that these are the things that we could be
letting slip through the cracks again, if we're doing away with
DEI, if we're doing away with the EEOC, if we're doing away
with all this stuff, because, again, this is the reality of
the world we live in and those guardrails were put in place for
a reason yeah.
I liked the way she walked away from me, or I think he said he
liked the view as she walked away from him.
I think that's what he said.
Speaker 2: Getting better.
Speaker 1: And I will say that the reason my mom or not the
reason, but my mom was driving on her way to the interview.
An asshole kind of cut her off as she was, like kind of turning
toward the office for the interview and what he did, she
slammed her horn and gave the guy the finger and when she
walked in and ended up being the hiring manager, oh, to which
they had an interview, and then he goes, you know what I like
your attitude, like you don't take shit from people, I can
tell.
And she ended up getting the job.
But, my mom just like flicked this guy off because he was an
asshole on the road.
Speaker 2: Hey, that's awesome.
I like that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so anyway , like that's just the stuff
that's on my mind.
It just drives me crazy and I think when people say that stuff
never happens, they're either I hate like they're part of a
privileged group of people who never had to like really worry
about that and to say that it doesn't matter and to say that
it won't affect you is a privilege, because there are
people that this will affect, and I also think about all the
DEI professionals who are in HR right now who are now working in
a quote unquote illegal field, and how many people are going to
lose their jobs over this as well.
Like there's a lot of things.
And also look at Target.
I mean there's just lists every day of companies that are
dropping DEI, oh did.
Target.
Target just dropped DEI and I don't know if you heard this,
but like Target dropped DEI.
So now Minnesota Pride, where Target is headquartered, dropped
Target from the Pride sponsorship.
They're like we don't need your money, target.
And when they did that, because I think Target gave like
$50,000 toward the Pride event, they're like you can suck it.
And then they ended up raising $75,000 because of that act.
And there are companies that do DEI performatively.
I now believe Target is one of them, because I do believe
Target started their DEI initiative right after George
Floyd and they were doing it in a way, and a lot of companies
did, a lot of companies did.
Speaker 2: That's when DEI really exploded.
Yes, before Floyd, it really was a thing.
That's when it exploded because in that brief period of time
you had Brianna, you had George Floyd I can't remember Brianna's
last name you had a lot of not so good social injustice issues
going on at that immediate time.
But yeah, but DEI itself is an illegal.
It's illegal DEI and which is not being defined so what does
that mean?
Yeah, it doesn't like again.
The million dollar question is is that now?
Speaker 1: going to be talking about, like I mean, I'm thinking
about things like, uh, working with neurodivergent people.
Like that's dei, we can't talk about that anymore.
Is it showing empathy at work?
Empathy is a code word for DEI, so we can't do that anymore,
like it's just.
And now I'm hearing like whispers that there's going to
be like a task force in the government that's like, oh,
we're going to be paying out people who basically rat their
companies out to be like, hey, my company's doing a training
and now I get like a $30,000 or some whatever, some fee for
basically like a rat line.
And I don't know but I don't know how many of you went to
school but snitches get stitches .
Stop your shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah it's, it's crazy and, like I said, my
stance as of right now, personally and professional
let's not get overly excited about it right now,
professionally, we had 90 days from whatever the inaction of
the order to be compliant with these orders.
So let's see exactly how it shakes out and maybe they'll
give us more direction on some of these very broad, vague
things.
Because the holes in these executive orders you can drive a
bus through.
And if you and I read the same thing and both being I think
we're both kind of smart people but we can get different
readings of not knowing what to do out of the same thing.
If we can't, if we don't know what to do, and the attorneys of
my law firm they're saying we're still trying to parse this
all together and you know, just , you know, be ready, make plans
, start getting ready, but don't take any action quite yet
unless you know you're doing something overtly wrong.
But another thing that went away all these VIRVA audits.
Okay, I don't know if I ever mentioned on the podcast like
three years ago my company got hit with a V audit, the Vietnam
era veterans readjustment Act.
Oh gosh, our company is 40 plus percent prior service.
Our COO is a retired Admiral.
We have so much military.
We work on Navy ships.
Because we're a civilian contractor working on these Navy
ships, we hire a lot of people from the Navy who worked on
these ships and we've won I'll toot my own horn here we've won
some best for vets and a military friendly.
We've won those type of awards and accolades and things like
that.
And yet we still got a VIRVA audit.
That ended up we passed with flying colors, no problems at
all.
But in attorney's fees it was over $50,000 in attorney's fees
to represent us in our VERBA audit, vevra, whatever you want
to say audit.
And not only was it $50,000 of attorney's fees, it was just the
complete obnoxiousness.
You know.
Here's our 4142.
Check us out we're doing.
You know there's no way you can say we're discriminating
against veterans in this, this thing.
And they, they wanted to, you know.
And they, they overstepped, in my opinion, if they're a verva,
they overstepped their boundaries.
I thought they wanted to go in our bathrooms, make sure they
are handicapped accessible, and they are, you know.
You know we have handicap parking, so they want to make
sure we have this.
And we, you know, we do.
You know it.
It should have been okay, five minutes.
Here's our last 10 years of 4142s.
Walk around, look at our bathrooms all day long, look,
and we're compliant.
But no, it was months and months and they would just ask that.
I can't remember any of these dumb ass questions.
They'd ask and why this and why that?
And uh, I'm like I, I don't know why.
Oh, I remember one time a veteran who was disabled at one
of the accommodations they wanted.
They needed a special chair and you know what.
They came to me in hr and said oh, I need a different chair to
you know, support, my, I said send me a link.
That's all I said send me a link.
She had it like within a week and it wasn't.
Well, let's talk about a reasonable accommodation.
Okay, a 500 chair?
Oh yeah, I'm going to pay that.
I'm going to pay that, I'm going to buy that tomorrow and
not, I don't know.
I will be very happy that these Verva audits, these EEO audits.
Well, eeo, if you're not playing the game right, yeah,
you need to be audited and you need to be punished.
But I think 99% of people are doing the right thing, at least
I hope.
Maybe I'm being naive, but that 1% that's not needs to be
hammered and hammered hard, but the rest of us leave us.
Oh, here's the other thing, and I've been on my soapbox.
I don't know if I've done it on the podcast, even though we're
well over an hour recording.
Now we're going to be doing some editing here, but I hate
the EO1 report.
I hate the 4142.
We're a good employer, we do what we think, we pay social
security taxes.
So therefore you have all our employees and their social
security numbers.
So you know better than I do what their race is, what their
disability they may have, their veteran status.
You know all that fun stuff more than I do.
I will never forget.
For EEO purposes, if someone does not fill out the form, the
self-identification form, you get to either A make an
assumption of what they are or, b they become a white male.
Everybody becomes a white male if otherwise.
So those are the rules of the EEO and I'll never forget.
We had a new HRS system at this company and when people did, I
forget what they had to do.
But we asked them to check their demographic information
out to make sure it was accurate , and somebody got very upset
that they were listed in there as a white female when they are
Native American.
I didn't make that assumption that predated me, but somebody
made that assumption and I wouldn't have ever known.
But they got upset about it and I'm like, okay, well, and I
went back and you know, this was in the day, pen and paper was
like I said it was a new HRS system.
They put the refuse to identify and I'm like, okay, if that's
fine, you want to do that.
But they got upset that somebody made the assumptions on
their behalf.
But oh well, that just is something that always stood out
to me, how upset they got about that.
I'm like it's easy to fix.
We can Do a little drop down and choose Native American from
the drop down box.
Real, quick and easy.
Speaker 1: It's an annual self-identification campaign
Like hey, like just a push to be like you know, go in your HRIS
and update things like you know your demographics, yeah, like
that's all self-identifiable.
So you got to.
This is just a friendly reminder that you should do it
if you're asked.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know I don't get offended.
Speaker 1: I don't get offended.
Speaker 2: I have a crew who can say you're Native American.
Well, we're going to fire you tomorrow because we don't allow
them here.
But I think that also.
Speaker 1: So I think that kind of also speaks to the just like
this inner fear that people probably have, that people are
probably like wired with from a young age that I mean it's a
perspective that I don't understand because I'm a white
female, but I can imagine, like somebody who has those fears in
them, they might not want to self-identify because they've
probably experienced things in their life that kind of makes
and this is why DEI and this is why all that stuff is important
you feel like they belong and feel like they are not
discriminated against and people accept them for who they am.
Something very magical happens and it's called retention.
So there is a very good business case for DEI, not just
like the oh it's a basic human need to be empathetic.
Like you should probably have some empathy and if you don't,
maybe you should see someone, end of the day, like it's a very
good business case, like we don't want to be continuously
recruiting for roles because people are leaving, because they
work in an environment that makes them uncomfortable, that
makes them this, that makes them that, like there's solid
business cases for this.
And the one thing I've learned in HR is you got to talk to
people in terms of money, not the touchy, feely pieces,
because that's where you might lose some senior leaders.
So when you make a business case on how to push something or
you have an initiative that you want to propose, tie it back to
ROI and money.
But yeah, Absolutely.
DEI is not touchy-feely.
It's actually good for the business it is.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
That's the title of our podcast today.
Speaker 1: Suck on that.
Speaker 2: That'll be the second part of the title.
One thing you were saying about self-identifying you know I
talk to my son is applying to all these internships and he is
on the autism spectrum.
But when it comes to that side of it he just puts I decline to
identify because he doesn't want to lie.
But he doesn't want, he doesn't think of himself in that way.
You know, he's brilliantly smart.
He used to be teased by members of our own family calling him
Dr Sheldon Cooper because he is brilliantly smart.
But sometimes the social cues are out of his reach.
But as he's gotten older he's done a lot better with it.
But he asked me he's done a lot better, uh, with it.
But he asked me what do I put?
I said I said I said go ahead and mark it, you know uh.
I said nobody said until it's time to run these reports,
nobody looks at it.
Speaker 1: Those reports aren't like that.
Demographic information isn't available to the hiring manager.
No, exactly back end stuff.
The hiring manager isn't looking to see if you have any
disabilities, like they don't know that and honestly they're
probably not going to know that unless you tell them, especially
if it's something invisible like that you know, in our
system, our recruiter, the only people who have access to the
self-identification information are me and my HR assistant.
Speaker 2: Our recruiter doesn't have access to it.
And you know when do we use it?
When we're doing our affirmative action and EO plans.
That's when we use that information.
And so nobody along the hiring process sees that info.
Nobody cares.
Nobody's asking you.
By the way, what is the deal with Warren?
What's his?
You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, For me.
I want to see if he has any latent disabilities that we
don't know about.
Speaker 2: That's not how that works Undiagnosed.
Add out the yin-yang.
Speaker 1: Neurodivergency is fun yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, anyways, we've been ranting.
I'm going to try and edit this to be under an hour even though
it's been well over an hour, but we'll, we'll see.
I hope you enjoyed this very long episode, but it's all been
a lot of fun.
And you know, we know we went down a lot of rabbit holes,
which maybe I'll edit some out.
But yeah, you know, this is important and we'll probably
talk a little bit more about this as more becomes available.
You know the the jaded part of this is you're throwing all this
shit at us without any direction and nobody's knowing.
I mean, you know, if this is what you want to do, fine, I'll
get over it, I'll live and the world will live and every babe
will.
Ultimately, the country will be just fine, and however many
more years, but everything's going to be.
We've survived worse in this country and in the world, so
let's not, let's not overreact, but let's just take it with a
grain of salt and see what comes .
But I'm sure this is going to give us a lot more fodder to to
discuss in the in future episodes as things go and then
when the lawsuits come out about it.
That's going to be a lot of fun too and they're starting.
Speaker 1: So I'm very interested and and not to make a
long episode even longer, but I will be watching the, because I
think the fbi agents are now filing a lawsuit against.
They're filing a lawsuit for in for unjust firing, because as
retaliation.
So, oh, because they were like you know the january 6th stuff
and they were all let go.
So now it's like now they're filing a lawsuit, which I think
is justifiable.
They should fire a lawsuit because that is retaliation.
They were just doing their job yeah, I.
Speaker 2: I saw something.
I didn't do any.
I saw something on it.
I saw a headline.
I didn't dive into it or look at it.
Get that money.
Speaker 1: I don't stand for retaliation, so get that money,
grab that bag.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll just have so much for the next
episode.
We could keep going on this, but anyhow, thank you for
listening and for if you've made it through this whole episode.
We love you.
You've been, it's been, I don't know.
We've done a couple episodes over an hour in the past, but
it's been a long time.
I I my target is 30 minutes, but I don't think the last, I
don't know the last time we've done a 30 minute episode either.
It's been around 40.
It's an hour now it's an hour now, oh, hour 15 right now, and,
like I said, it'll be well, I'll let it.
I'll see what I can do in the magic magic of editing tomorrow
night.
So anyways, as always, I'm warren, I'm cc and we're here
helping you survive hr1.
What the fuck?
Moment at a time?
What the fuck?
Yeah, exactly what the fuck.