Speaker 1: Had you actually read the email, you would know that the podcast you are about to listen to could contain explicit language and offensive content.
Speaker 1: These HR experts' views are not representative of their past, present or future employers.
Speaker 1: If you have ever heard my manager is unfair to me.
Speaker 1: I need you to reset my HR portal password, or Can I write up my employee for crying too much?
Speaker 1: Welcome to our little safe zone.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast by two HR professionals who want to help you get through the workday by saying everything you're thinking, but say it out loud.
Speaker 2: I'm Warren.
Speaker 2: I'm Cece, all right, and I'm going to keep that intro in there, as I saw it went down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and we were still talking, so I'm going to keep that in there.
Speaker 2: That person is not one of my favorite people on earth, but anyhow.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, we were just talking off air.
Speaker 2: It seems like there was no big deal or drama or anything from the SHRM conference.
Speaker 2: I didn't see any really I don't know what demonizing posts about SHRM 2025.
Speaker 2: I didn't see anything terrific either.
Speaker 2: I didn't see, and SHRM didn't put a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: I did look on LinkedIn a little bit.
Speaker 2: I didn't spend a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: I did look on linkedin a little bit.
Speaker 2: I didn't spend a lot of time on it but to see what sherm was posting about sherm 2025, and I didn't see it was very quiet a heck of a lot I did see some stuff.
Speaker 3: I did see some positive stuff on reddit.
Speaker 3: People said they got stuff out of it.
Speaker 3: I was even on the, the subreddit for hr, and someone was talking about some stuff.
Speaker 3: They learned about succession and talent management and I'm like, ooh, I want to share your notes and I was trying to, but no, I was just going to say.
Speaker 3: I just think that for the most part, people, people had a good time.
Speaker 3: So yay.
Speaker 2: Well, we were also talking off the fair that I hadn't listened to any podcasts in about a month, but I listened to our episode from the beginning of June this evening on my way home and, boy, I uploaded the wrong episode with the edits and it was partially edited and then the intro comes like midways.
Speaker 2: I didn't do my job, so the audio quality sucked on that one, and it was.
Speaker 2: It was really badly done.
Speaker 2: But one that came to mind speaking of SHRM, and this popped in my head because you wanted to go to the PSYOPs Is that what it's called, yeah, convention?
Speaker 2: And I was like, what organization out there is there that could potentially replace SHRM?
Speaker 2: You know you have Hacking HR, you have, oh, you have.
Speaker 2: There's a couple of contenders out there, but I think that might be a topic for another episode.
Speaker 2: And, dear listener, go to the show notes and send us a text and give us your ideas of what you think might be a replacement for SHRM is.
Speaker 2: I was thinking you have you know what, what is out there that that could replace SHRM?
Speaker 2: So, anyways, we will, we will talk about that, but I'm.
Speaker 3: I am very biased towards PSYOP, but yeah, just because it's, it's PSYOP the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychology so it's very science-based, which I like, but it is not SIOP, the International Pediatric Oncology Congress.
Speaker 3: That is not the SIOP I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: I know nothing about pediatric oncology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something awful to think about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: But no, I just did a really quick Google.
Speaker 3: It came up number one.
Speaker 3: I was like I should probably clarify.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I should probably clarify.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I like it.
Speaker 3: It's more of a scientific practice than some of the.
Speaker 3: I think some of the stuff you talk about, warren, where it's like the fluffy stuff, the feel-good stuff, like the stuff that makes me roll my eyes because it feels like a pseudoscience, but PSYOP makes it feel like it's an actual science.
Speaker 3: So that's why maybe that's the answer.
Speaker 2: I might check into some of that, as that seems really, really cool.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you were mentioning that in that episode I was listening to on the way home today.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh okay.
Speaker 2: Well, there's two big things sort of happening in the world right now, and one being today, July 8th, is the start of Amazon Prime week, so I am guilty of shopping online.
Speaker 2: I bought myself it, so it was on Prime from like $45 to $17.
Speaker 2: I do some woodworking on the side.
Speaker 2: I got a new pocket hole jig, so I went online.
Speaker 2: I got got a new pocket hole jig, so I went online.
Speaker 2: I got myself a new pocket hole jig.
Speaker 2: It's a Vivor, whatever the brand is.
Speaker 2: I've had a couple of those things.
Speaker 2: It's Chinese.
Speaker 2: It's not total crap, but it's, you know, for the price.
Speaker 2: I'll take it, and I needed a new one anyway, and at $17, if it lasts me a project or two, I'll be happy.
Speaker 2: That's why I bought for myself.
Speaker 2: I bought one thing on Amazon Prime today.
Speaker 2: I did bookmark a couple things or put it in a wish list to share with my wife see if we're going to be interested in it.
Speaker 2: But how about you?
Speaker 2: Did you do your online shopping instead of working today?
Speaker 3: First of all, I just need to ask are you like the real world version of ron swanson?
Speaker 2: oh, many ways I am, except he had an awesome head of hair.
Speaker 2: I used to claim myself as a libertarian, I don't anymore, but yeah, and strangely enough, watching parks and rec, we wore a lot of the same wardrobe.
Speaker 2: The exact same like long sleeve and I.
Speaker 2: The brand is Hagar long sleeve polos and I had some of the exact same ones that Ron Swanson had.
Speaker 2: And I remember one time we're watching an episode and my wife says you're wearing the exact same shirt as he is and I was yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I, I can be a bit of a Ron Swanson.
Speaker 2: I'm actually in the process right now of over.
Speaker 2: When I was in the hospital I was supposed to be building a shed.
Speaker 2: I bought all the wood and everything to build a shed.
Speaker 2: Well, not, I thought I bought all the wood.
Speaker 2: The kit company shorted me and I've been running to Home Depot a few times, but which is not close to me, but anyways, been doing that and so I didn't do it.
Speaker 2: Memorial Day weekend, I did as much as I could.
Speaker 2: Fourth of July weekend, until I ran out of some needed lumber.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I love, I like woodworking, I like doing things with my hands, I like getting out there and doing stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could definitely be compared to Ron Swanson.
Speaker 2: I identify with him very much.
Speaker 2: Put those tears back in your eyes where they belong.
Speaker 3: Put them back in your eyes where they belong.
Speaker 3: As for Amazon Prime, I didn't.
Speaker 3: Well, I did some shopping, so I magically passed CC.
Speaker 3: I was actually looking out for future CC because I did one of those things where I had things in my shopping cart and I thought I ordered it but I forgot.
Speaker 3: So, anyway, I remember today, and like half the things or most, I would say like all of the things were marked down that were already in my shopping cart, so I was like perfect.
Speaker 3: And then nothing really entertaining though.
Speaker 3: I just bought some new clothes for Bean and she got a new electric toothbrush too.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I know we're brushing teeth and we're almost walking.
Speaker 2: So she's a big girl I was going to ask Almost there walking.
Speaker 2: Walking doesn't last long before it's running.
Speaker 2: And then that's.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, here's a funny story.
Speaker 3: I got up out of bed this morning and I went down the stairs and my knee started to randomly click.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, why is my knee clicking as I go down the stairs?
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, is this a permanent thing, or is this a thing that's just going to pass?
Speaker 3: So I'm like I need to get my own physical health under control because I feel like the running for her is going to happen soon and I need to catch up.
Speaker 3: So yes, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: I remember that age very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, here's something Now.
Speaker 2: I worked at a company once that Prime Day, when it was only one day, once upon a time, they would block Amazon from being able to do it at work.
Speaker 2: And from Thanksgiving on, anything retail would be blocked from work Really, yeah, especially Black Friday, and things would be blocked from the work computers.
Speaker 2: I actually see that as worse than allowing it First if people are not doing their job.
Speaker 2: I looked at PrimeList for a while and then I saw the pocket whole jig.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, 17 bucks sold.
Speaker 2: I didn't spend hours looking and looking and then I didn't look after I got that.
Speaker 2: But anyways, I think by blocking those sites you're doing more harm than good.
Speaker 2: What are you going to do?
Speaker 2: You're going to reach and grab your cell phone, which is less efficient, and you're gonna be doing the exact same thing on your cell phone.
Speaker 2: If you're having a problem with people spending too much time shopping online, you handle that on a case-by-case basis, but if if it's, you know, cyber Monday or Amazon Prime Day or whatever it is, let it go to a certain extent.
Speaker 2: I mean, don't let someone spend all day shopping online.
Speaker 2: But for me today it was no different than any other time.
Speaker 2: I get a bug up my butt to say, oh, I want to buy this, I want to buy that, I go online and I buy it.
Speaker 2: To buy that, I go online and I buy it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really was.
Speaker 2: But I guess I spent a little bit my 10 minutes browsing, 15 minutes browsing, before I found this is.
Speaker 2: I didn't know it was for sale and I didn't know it was on sale, I should say, and I was like, okay, then that's, that was the extent of my shopping.
Speaker 2: But but what do you think about blocking shopping sites like during either?
Speaker 2: That's so stupid.
Speaker 3: I mean mean, like you said, if people are going to do it, they're going to do it.
Speaker 3: So and I I highly doubt that the majority of people are going to be spending like five, six, seven hours a day on the clock shopping.
Speaker 3: If anything, it might be like 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there.
Speaker 3: It's just such a small window of time.
Speaker 3: I highly doubt it's really damaging productivity and efficiency that much.
Speaker 3: I think it would be a waste of time and it would be like it kills morale too.
Speaker 3: It just feels like big brother is babysitting you and you're not trusted.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's a morale issue too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't think of it that way, but yes, I would be.
Speaker 2: I'd be irritated.
Speaker 2: I don't remember being irritated when this other company I worked for was blocking those sites.
Speaker 2: Because what did I do?
Speaker 2: I picked up my phone and went to do it on my phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and like I said, it takes you for me as an old geezer type guy, it takes me longer to shop online with my phone than it does on my computer.
Speaker 2: I can knock something out real quick there, but anyhow, that was another thing.
Speaker 2: But another milestone date passed.
Speaker 2: Since we last recorded, it's been 20 years of podcasts on Apple, of podcasts on Apple.
Speaker 2: That was June 28th 2025.
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs announced at the Worldwide Developers Conference that Apple would be supporting podcasts through iTunes.
Speaker 2: And if you YouTube the video of Steve Jobs announcing it and he's talking about he's basically introducing the world to podcasts, even though they've been around before then.
Speaker 2: And he opens up and he puts up in what?
Speaker 2: What five second blurb does he get?
Speaker 2: He opens it up to adam curry, who's known as the pod father.
Speaker 2: Now, if you, if you're of my age, in my generation, you remember adam curry as the mtv vj in the 80s and 90s.
Speaker 2: But now, now he's the pod father, he has like the first RSS feed for podcasts, apparently, or something like that.
Speaker 2: But he's on.
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs clicks the button to play a podcast and it's Adam Curry bitching about his Mac and how bad it is and everything, and so you only get five seconds of it.
Speaker 2: Some people say it was an accident.
Speaker 2: Adam Curry says it was done deliberately, as a jab apparently at the Mac development team that Steve Jobs was not happy with at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we will never know, but it brought me to think.
Speaker 3: I believe that Because now that we know a little bit more about how well okay, like Steve Jobs is was a brilliant person, but we also now have a little more of about how well okay, like steve jobs is a was a brilliant person, but we also now have a little more of an inkling of his leadership style, which I would say is a little unorthodox and, yes, you know, not a work environment that I would like to work under, but I would say that that is highly calculated because that seems like something he would do and steve jobs is such a quirky individual.
Speaker 2: You know the story that sticks out in my mind his personal secretary was late to work one day because her car wouldn't start, so he instantly bought her a brand new car and it was something like expensive.
Speaker 2: I forget what it was and said now never be late to work again and I will never be, late to work.
Speaker 3: I would never.
Speaker 3: If I was his assistant.
Speaker 3: I would never be late to work again.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: If my boss just bought me a brand new car, I would be like you know what?
Speaker 3: True.
Speaker 2: Touche.
Speaker 2: You bought my loyalty.
Speaker 2: I have a price and you found it.
Speaker 2: But it got me thinking because he announced it in June of 2005, june 28th of 2005.
Speaker 2: And it was the next iteration of the iTunes that allowed the podcast.
Speaker 2: But it got me thinking to the first podcast I would listen to, and I've never been to Apple person.
Speaker 2: I've never had iPod or anything like that.
Speaker 2: I did have, oh gosh, what are they called the iPod minis, the thing that was like a one inch square thing back in the day.
Speaker 2: I got it as a gift or something like that and I want to find it.
Speaker 2: I want to see what music is on that thing here, whatever 30 years later or whatever it is, but anyway, so it's around somewhere.
Speaker 2: But the thing is, if I have a charger for it, it's a whole nother thing.
Speaker 3: You can find anything on eBay.
Speaker 3: Right now I'm tracking down.
Speaker 3: It's not that hard to track down, honestly, I just need to find one and buy it.
Speaker 3: But I have all these mini DV tapes.
Speaker 3: They look like mini VHSs is what they look like when I was in high school this is late 90s, early 2000s.
Speaker 3: I was really into video editing and video stuff Before content creation was a thing.
Speaker 3: I was leading the way and I have all these tapes that I uncovered during moving and I was like these tapes have so much footage of me from high school and also projects I did, projects I edited.
Speaker 3: There's also like just fun stuff I did with friends and I'm dying to get it.
Speaker 3: So the only way I think I can do it is if I go on eBay and buy an old Handycam that had the mini DVs and I can hook it up to my computer and extract the audio, because otherwise you go on these other companies like Legacy Box and stuff and it's for $10 per tape which you're like that doesn't sound bad.
Speaker 3: But then I'm thinking about it and I'm like I don't know what's on these tapes, like this could be like 10 seconds of footage.
Speaker 3: I'm like going to pay $10 for 10 seconds of footage, you know.
Speaker 3: So I need to find a way to do it myself.
Speaker 3: It's going to be more cost effective.
Speaker 2: But everything's on ebay, all old electronics.
Speaker 2: I have my.
Speaker 2: Actually my wife and I had that same conversation.
Speaker 2: I have our old videotape in it.
Speaker 2: I I don't know what type of cassette it is anymore, but I've got a box of those cassettes of like the kids growing up and and things like that and I I want to get them digitized somehow.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll find a way to connect it to my computer so I can download and do it myself, versus paying Legacy Box or someone like that.
Speaker 2: That would be pretty cool.
Speaker 3: I just want to go down like a random.
Speaker 3: This has nothing HR related, more just like a huh moment.
Speaker 3: I was on Reddit and I'm in a sub, like I'm in a subreddit called Gen X, and this person posted, as Gen Z, like these movie clips, like movie stills of it was can't hardly wait, clueless, and I want to say 10 things I hate about you.
Speaker 3: And all of the freeze frames were from teen parties, like house parties.
Speaker 3: All of the freeze frames were from teen parties, like house parties.
Speaker 3: And you know, this person said was this real or was this just Hollywood making things up, because I'm Gen Z and I've never been to a house party?
Speaker 3: And blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 3: And I had a moment of like, oh no, like I'm just thinking, thinking yes, they were real.
Speaker 3: We all just kind of printed out a map quest page and, like went to random houses that we heard from other people, like we didn't know whose house that was.
Speaker 3: We just showed up and had a great time, like these were all real.
Speaker 3: And I'm like now thinking, oh my god, is it true that gen z doesn't do that anymore?
Speaker 2: no, no, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: I don't think they do.
Speaker 2: I really don't think they do.
Speaker 2: I, you know, before MapQuest and things like that, it was just you would show up somewhere and I don't know how you find, or out here in the sticks, where are the bonfire parties?
Speaker 2: Just in the back of a farm somewhere.
Speaker 2: And next thing you know, you got 200 drunk teenagers out there and how the hell you knew about it and where to go and when I I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 2: I guess you know the rumor mill was pretty strong or what have you the the gossip, but yeah, doing things.
Speaker 2: I remember I was at a bonfire party, it was somewhere, and I had a two liter bottle of Seagram's golden wine cooler.
Speaker 2: It's like the white claw, the pre the predecessor of white claw, and you've got to look up the old Bruce Willis commercials of him doing Seagram's golden wine cooler commercials.
Speaker 2: But it was a two liter bottle of it and I'm walking around, I'm lit with that stuff and the police show up and there must have been like 20 police show up and there's like 200 kids, and so I lived on the other side of the woods so I didn't, I just ran.
Speaker 2: I didn't have to take the road to to get home.
Speaker 2: So and I knew, knew the woods pretty darn well that could get there through the night and things like that.
Speaker 2: So the things you would do back then that you can't do now, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: In college I didn't even finish my podcast, so we'll get back to that.
Speaker 2: But in college in Greenville, north Carolina, then I was walking home drunk as a skunk under 21 years old and I had a super big gulp cup full of beer.
Speaker 2: Heading back to my house from a party and a police officer shines his mega white light at me.
Speaker 2: He doesn't even get out of the car, he just gets on the little bullhorn thing, the speaker and the whatever out of the car.
Speaker 2: He says pour it out.
Speaker 2: And I just poured it out.
Speaker 2: He said have a good night and that's it.
Speaker 2: That's all there was.
Speaker 2: Now in Greenville kids get tickets and they get busted for drinking and public intoxication and open containers and things like that.
Speaker 2: I'm like as long as you weren't doing something actively doing something stupid in the nineties they didn't care.
Speaker 2: You know it was like, okay, just just go.
Speaker 2: But nowadays they're they're pretty strict on that stuff.
Speaker 2: So it is a different world.
Speaker 3: So anyway, poor Gen Z, no house parties, and they missed the work in an office, a collaborative environment, five days a week and I feel a little bad for them.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: Well, gen Z, I'll go back to the podcast.
Speaker 2: I swear.
Speaker 2: But, Gen Z, I saw a thing on I don't remember where if it was Reddit or if it was LinkedIn or something like that.
Speaker 2: They're now calling what I would term a vacation, a micro retirement.
Speaker 2: Google, real quick, micro retirement, I'm taking a micro retirement or whatever.
Speaker 2: That's really funny and I'm like yeah, it's called.
Speaker 2: It's called a vacation.
Speaker 3: It's called PTO man yeah.
Speaker 2: What is micro?
Speaker 2: What is?
Speaker 2: I Googled it Fast Company, which is another one of those shitty shitty news sites clickbait, everything.
Speaker 2: What is micro retirement?
Speaker 2: The latest inside the latest Gen Z trend First, taking deliberate short-term breaks from your career to focus on personal interests and goals.
Speaker 2: It's a growing trend among Gen Z and millennials seeking to prioritize well-being experiences over traditional concepts of working continuously until a single lengthy retirement period to end their career.
Speaker 3: I don't understand.
Speaker 3: That's literally just like a wellness vacation.
Speaker 3: Like unplugging to work on something on the side.
Speaker 3: Don't we do that?
Speaker 3: I don't understand the concept.
Speaker 2: Are they taking long spans of time.
Speaker 2: What I saw was they took this person.
Speaker 2: The first thing I saw before I just googled this was they took a two-week micro retirement.
Speaker 2: I'm like that's called a vacation dude.
Speaker 2: But some of the reading online right here right now it says some may or may not be employer supported and things like that.
Speaker 2: To prevent burnout, focus on creativity, innovation etc.
Speaker 3: But no good for you.
Speaker 3: If you want to take a couple weeks off to build a something in your backyard, then go, do it like cool I will say I have my.
Speaker 3: My current company is permissive pto, like we don't have accruals unless you're hourly.
Speaker 3: There's different accruals, but but yeah, like we, we do permissive policy and I've been very on the fence about it because you know you read research that says if you do permissive, people don't take the time they need off yes but I will say I think my team and I work in HR but I feel like our leadership does really good by leading by example and using it and going on time and like telling, like, like I hate to say granting permission, but yeah, they are.
Speaker 3: They're granting permission by example and I love it.
Speaker 3: I am now all for it, but I think it only works when your leadership is ready for it and can actually lead by example.
Speaker 3: But I would love to take a two week micro retirement and go to I don't know.
Speaker 3: I would love to work on being a mermaid, so I will go to a resort somewhere and just sit on the beach.
Speaker 3: That's my micro retirement.
Speaker 2: But here's the second search result Gen Z stupidly claims to have invented micro retirement, and then it goes on to say Gen Z is claiming it and taking vacations, anyway.
Speaker 2: So I'll get on for that.
Speaker 3: That does remind me of an episode of Parks and Recreation where she's like you've had soy milk, you have almond milk, now it's beef milk.
Speaker 3: That's what it was, and she was like it's fucking milk.
Speaker 2: I haven't watched Parks and Rec forever.
Speaker 2: I need to watch that.
Speaker 2: It's so funny.
Speaker 2: I'll go ahead back to podcasting.
Speaker 2: I was trying to think of what was the first podcast you listened to.
Speaker 2: Do you remember, damn?
Speaker 3: So the first one that comes to mind that I listened to religiously was a now defunct podcast called an acquired taste, where it was three women djs, like radio personalities, on a major thing and they their own side project was.
Speaker 3: They just did a podcast with the three of them and they're all kind of like have weird interests and like you know different things that I really resonated with and I would listen to them religiously.
Speaker 3: So an acquired taste podcast RIP.
Speaker 3: Another one to the podcast graveyard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first one, and I'm going to give credit to Patrick, our first co-host from JDHR.
Speaker 2: The first one it was 2014.
Speaker 2: It was cereal and he was talking about that and that's pre itunes and I can.
Speaker 2: I can remember going on to the serial website to have to download the episodes and then when you wanted episodes because I didn't know about rss feeds I would just go to whatever website of whichever podcast I was listening to at the time to download them and then I'd play them on my music player, whatever I was using at that time.
Speaker 2: But I really connected with Serial on a different level because my first job out of college I lived in Maryland and it referenced so many places I knew between Baltimore and Patuxent Parkway and Patuxent River Park and those areas.
Speaker 2: I could sit there even though it's 2014,.
Speaker 2: I left there in 2001.
Speaker 2: I could sit there and still picture those places.
Speaker 2: I've been these places that they're talking about in the, the serial podcasts and things like that, and so I got hooked on the serial and then I I think two years later they had the next one.
Speaker 2: I never listened to the one after the.
Speaker 2: The second one, oh is berg, was it?
Speaker 2: Bergdahl was the second one?
Speaker 2: I think so anyways, but I can't remember any of the other podcasts I was listening to around that time frame.
Speaker 2: But we, we would talk about a serial and that's what Patrick got me into podcasts, and that was the first one we talked about and I listened to and I listened to a few others, but I couldn't remember a single title of what any of those were from.
Speaker 2: Is work, career, hr related?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Just a roundabout way we're going to get there.
Speaker 3: So I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago how, when I was in high school, I was, I wasn't athletic, but I was into video, journalism, I was into newspaper, I was into yearbook, I was into, like, creating things, and I always wanted to create right.
Speaker 3: And for the longest time I thought that I was going to be.
Speaker 3: I wanted to be a radio DJ and I don't know why I just wanted to be an on-air personality.
Speaker 3: And you know then to the point where I would go.
Speaker 3: We would, as a group for yearbook, we would go to these high school publishing competitions or conventions or whatever, and I would separate from the group to go into the radio broadcasting like area.
Speaker 3: And now I'm sitting here and I'm like, okay, so radio is dying.
Speaker 3: But now, like I'm on a podcast and I'm doing podcasts, I'm doing a podcast at for my job, I'm on a podcast and I'm doing podcasts, I'm doing a podcast for my job.
Speaker 3: And I was thinking about all of the weird ways where we have these loves as children or young adults, of things that we want to do when we grow up and maybe those things don't manifest the way we think they do, but as we get older they manifest in different ways.
Speaker 3: So like HR by day, podcasting by night, kind of thing, and I think about that because, okay, I have a 15-month-old.
Speaker 3: I also think about that with Miss Rachel and for anyone who has like a toddler age, children.
Speaker 3: You know, miss Rachel, she is the end-all, be-all, she is her third parent, but she's like another one where I look at who was a woman who wanted a singing career and like if you go into Spotify, you can find her whole albums.
Speaker 3: She wanted like to, you know, be a solo artist.
Speaker 3: It didn't pan out and she went into teaching and now somehow she found herself as Miss Rachel, where she is singing, where she is performing, where she is creating.
Speaker 3: And I just thought that was like interesting that you know, we go into these careers that hopefully, like we might not be doing exactly what we wanted to when we grow up, but we're doing elements that still bring us joy that we had when we were children or when we were young adults.
Speaker 3: So anyway, that was, yeah, that's my deep thoughts for the night.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's a lot of we've been all over the place, but that's a good thing, I think.
Speaker 3: We're riding the ADHD train.
Speaker 2: Backwards, yeah, backwards.
Speaker 3: And it's on fire.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Not for me today, but, yeah, I know that feeling.
Speaker 2: So the HR story that I actually prepared and I've had this on my show notes since May.
Speaker 2: Actually, the date of this article is May 7th.
Speaker 2: It's from Eric Meyer and if you don't subscribe to his newsletter, please do you follow him on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to his newsletter.
Speaker 2: It's really, really good.
Speaker 2: So here's the situation.
Speaker 2: There was a couple.
Speaker 2: They used to work together.
Speaker 2: The husband apparently got terminated.
Speaker 2: It had been terminated.
Speaker 2: After the relationship ended, he became hostile and began sending threatening messages to the plaintiff, but she never reported them to her employer.
Speaker 2: Roughly a year later, the assailant rented a car, put on his old company sweatshirt and a freezer suit and waited outside the workplace.
Speaker 2: When an employee opened the badge access door, he followed them inside.
Speaker 2: He located the plaintiff at her desk, doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: She ended up suing, saying that her company didn't, that they were negligent and they didn't protect her.
Speaker 2: She said because the company allowed ex-employees to keep their uniforms and they didn't infer or spadge access security and guards failed to monitor the cameras in real time and doors were always propped open.
Speaker 2: But anyways, the long story of it is that she sued, she lost because the court said there's no reasonable way you can predict that this is going to happen.
Speaker 2: He wrote I love about his newsletter.
Speaker 2: If you subscribe to his newsletter he has like a paragraph of what happened and then the next paragraph it's set aside by bars and it's the TLDR.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 2: A federal appellate court held up the employer was not liable for negligence after a former employee violently attacked a current employee at the facility.
Speaker 2: The court reasoned that even if there were lapses in security, this calculated violent act was so bizarre and so unforeseeable that it broke the chain of causation Under law.
Speaker 2: No reasonable jury could find that employer could have predicted this attack.
Speaker 2: So the employer couldn't be liable.
Speaker 2: But just, I could not imagine being an HR person.
Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine working there and that situation happening period, but being in HR and having to deal with that, the aftermath of that, the lawsuit of that, that, the aftermath of that, the lawsuit of that you got to believe that other employees that were not involved quit, found other jobs, got the hell out of there like whatever.
Speaker 2: Locally, not too well before I moved to where I am now still in the same county, we had a similar incident, kind of.
Speaker 2: A guy was trying to get back at his ex.
Speaker 2: He filled his pickup truck with up with hay.
Speaker 2: He poured gasoline all over the pickup truck himself and filled the truck up with gas containers and he drove the truck into the building of the office the office building she worked in, and she was not hurt.
Speaker 2: Nobody.
Speaker 2: The only person was hurt.
Speaker 2: He died.
Speaker 2: The driver died.
Speaker 2: Everybody else made it out, thankfully out of that, but burned the building down.
Speaker 2: But just, you can't predict anything.
Speaker 2: And then my HR question related to this is how far are you going to go to get?
Speaker 2: If he's a driver, he's probably got two, three dozen T-shirts for the company, t-shirts for the company working places where people have had uniforms.
Speaker 2: I've never tried to recover those uniforms.
Speaker 2: I don't want somebody's sweat, stain, dirty uniform you can.
Speaker 2: You can keep it.
Speaker 2: When I left that company is I wore a uniform as well.
Speaker 2: Until I moved I had all my shirts.
Speaker 2: And then I just contacted a former employee or a former co-worker who's about my size, and said hey, you know, I've got this stuff and I don't need it, don't want it.
Speaker 2: And I offered it to him and he swung by my house and picked it up and and things like that.
Speaker 3: but I was like yeah, it's hard like so sometimes now, like knowing what I know, now like or like piecing things together.
Speaker 3: There would always be I don't know if it was a compliance thing, but every once in a while, when I was at my old company that was a big campus type setup where there were the security guards at the front and the badge ends with like four or five entries of access, with a badge every once in a while we would get like a random, what seemed to be out of the blue, remind, heavy reminder, to be like just remember, we do not allow people in unless they badge, even if you know them behind you.
Speaker 3: They must badge in like do not let anyone, do not presume people like whatever.
Speaker 3: And now I'm thinking like these, these reminders would come out of the blue and I'm like but were they like?
Speaker 3: Was it a situation where someone could be like hey, I need to go talk to hr, I'm going through like a bad situation at home, a bad breakup or something, and I need to let people know because I'm afraid for my safety at work?
Speaker 3: And then it kind of escalates to just a blanket like hey, everybody, just a real friendly reminder do not do X, y and Z, do not prop doors open, do not let people in.
Speaker 3: And now I'm thinking I do agree that the company should not be liable for that, but I'm wondering, like, what additional steps could have been taken in that situation.
Speaker 3: Like, were there conversations with HR?
Speaker 3: Did this person even feel like she was in danger, or was this out of the blue?
Speaker 3: And then I think on the other end, like if it escalated this much like things like this don't escalate that quickly usually, so usually there's signs of abuse within the relationship and if that's the case, like, just I don't know Like, are there little things that we could do, Not to say that the workplace is responsible, but just to say, like, what more could have been done?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean direct people to EAP, get them counseling, get them help, physical help, security type help.
Speaker 2: You know need.
Speaker 2: Do you need to be walked to your car at night and things like that.
Speaker 2: You know we, we have a badge in, badge out system, so all our doors are always locked from the outside and about once a year or so we send a reminder don't, don't hold the door open for other people, don't let people and everybody must open the door to themselves, use the badge themselves.
Speaker 2: But you know what, I'm the one who sends that email a week later.
Speaker 2: I know I'm holding the door for somebody and things like that, but in my defense, if somebody's been terminated or something's going on, I'm probably the first person outside.
Speaker 2: I would know, but I can't sit there as a human being, especially if someone's carrying something.
Speaker 2: I can't not open the door for someone else or hold it.
Speaker 2: You're three steps behind me.
Speaker 2: Nope, I'm not going to hold the door for you.
Speaker 2: It's awkward, but once a year or so we send out an email, not to I forget what the term they use for people just walking in behind someone who swiped in.
Speaker 2: So it's rough, but man, what a horrible, horrible situation.
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: But I have one more story and it relates very much to what we were talking about with the micro retirements and this comes to us.
Speaker 2: I think it was on linkedin.
Speaker 2: I found it.
Speaker 2: I don't know who posted it, so I can't give them credit.
Speaker 2: The company is uline and, for whatever reason, I even get the uline catalogs at my home, yeah, for every once while for packing materials and things like that.
Speaker 2: But their CEO, I'm assuming Liz, and her name is printed here in cursive, so it looks like it's Liz Wilkinson.
Speaker 2: I might be wrong on that.
Speaker 2: She put this in her in their catalog and it's titled the Nomads and it goes job hopping used to be frowned on red flags on resumes, something previous generations did their best to avoid.
Speaker 2: You stuck with a job, you showed stability and you worked your way up.
Speaker 2: But boy, how times have changed, and that's underlined and in bold.
Speaker 2: What makes it so easy for young workers to pull up stakes and move on?
Speaker 2: Why they don't prioritize job security and financial stability more.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's because they don't have to.
Speaker 2: At Uline, young people are resigning before their two-year anniversary at a higher rate than we'd like.
Speaker 2: We invest precious resources in recruiting, hiring and training new hires, only for them to leave.
Speaker 2: We call them nomads.
Speaker 2: Why do they jump around?
Speaker 2: And then she's got this.
Speaker 2: Listen, this gets a little political here.
Speaker 2: Just not trying to be very political here, but free insurance.
Speaker 2: The Affordable Care Act allows young adults to stay on their parents' health insurance until age 26.
Speaker 2: The unintended consequences are that you can quit a job without losing coverage and go look for to go where the grass looks greener.
Speaker 2: In addition, parents often pay for their kids phone bills, car insurance, streaming services next bullet oh, I haven't thought about that.
Speaker 3: Like you, would rather people be like enslaved at your company because they have no other choice for medical insurance.
Speaker 3: Like that's dumb but then also any other company provides insurance like well, not every, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Like most companies, most companies like you go you get on their insurance plan.
Speaker 3: That's a stupid reason.
Speaker 2: Next, but I will say I'm I'm guilty, my, my son, I pay his car insurance and his phone bill.
Speaker 2: Now he's 21, he's still in college.
Speaker 2: So but my daughter, I still pay her phone bill.
Speaker 2: Only because I tried I was going to take her off.
Speaker 2: But it's actually less expensive to have four people in the family plan, to have three people in the family plan.
Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, screw it, I'll, you know, I'll pay her, I'll keep her on my, my family plan, my family phone.
Speaker 2: But anyways, our second bullet, the pandemic COVID-19, turned the world on its head.
Speaker 2: Thanks to three rounds of stimulus checks, people didn't get off their couches to work.
Speaker 2: It became the norm to work from home and not build camaraderie at work.
Speaker 2: All hell broke loose.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's our bullet number two, or?
Speaker 3: did you just lose control?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I do see the work from home.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's number two, or did you just lose control?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do see the work from home both ways, and it really depends on the leadership and the environment of the company, the culture of the company and things like that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Also like the stimulus checks.
Speaker 3: People act like they were like life changing money.
Speaker 3: Like Ed McMahon was showing up at your door with like a $45,000 check.
Speaker 3: Like those stimulus checks weren't like life-changing, they were just like so to blame that.
Speaker 3: That's why people felt comfortable to job hop I don't know, and they were getting on it.
Speaker 2: She doesn't say this, but I know people will be saying this unlimited unemployment for periods of the pandemic at some places as well.
Speaker 2: But well, then again they weren't losing money Knock on wood.
Speaker 3: I don't want to put a jinx out there, but like when are we going to get another pandemic Like this?
Speaker 1: is once in a 100 year phenomenon.
Speaker 1: I'm being kind of serious, like the last flu epidemic was like in 1920.
Speaker 3: So like when, when are we going to have this again?
Speaker 3: So can we just like crumple those excuses up and just throw them away until we like have to rehash them in the next 100 years?
Speaker 3: Like not just sensitive but.
Speaker 2: I'm sort of overhearing COVID-19 being the blame for all of these things as well from kids not having social skills.
Speaker 2: Because they've been, they spent their high school years doing high school remotely and they can't work functionally with other people.
Speaker 2: There's there's a wee bit of merit to it, but it's not.
Speaker 3: It's not the root cause it's also not the decline of society.
Speaker 3: So we're fine, we're fine life will go on.
Speaker 2: Her third and final bullet is parenting.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 2: Look at her face.
Speaker 2: Many try to be a friend.
Speaker 2: They show a lot of affection and concentrate on the fun, but fail to provide guidelines, rules and expectations that teach personal responsibility.
Speaker 2: Bold and underlined, bold and underlined it.
Speaker 2: The result is a generation of nomads who've been sheltered in quotes, knowing mom and dad will keep taking care of them.
Speaker 2: At some point you've got to kick them out of the nest so they can learn to fly.
Speaker 2: And she ends it by saying employers always look out for young, talented candidates.
Speaker 2: It's hard to build a winning team when the rookies you sign think they're free agents before they even take the field.
Speaker 3: So newsflash, every employee is a free agent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Employment at will has been around, unless you're in Montana for quite a while.
Speaker 3: I'm curious to hear what Uline does for, like I don't know performance management, for learning and development, for growth pathing, for growth pathing, for career pathing, like, instead of looking at this younger generation who, I'm probably going to say, in my own opinion, learned what millennials did is that you're going to make more money if you leave, right, like if you leave and take an offer somewhere else, incrementally over x amount of years, you are going to make more money than if you just stay at a company like a good little boy or girl and get your little pats on the head with your little two percent increases every year.
Speaker 3: I mean, unless the company is actually pouring into someone and making it worthwhile for that person to stay, then you can 100 expect that person to leave.
Speaker 3: Then you can 100% expect that person to leave within three years.
Speaker 3: And I think honestly, like I, this is just off the top of my head I think that's like the average, like people stay like three years.
Speaker 3: So my feedback to you is why are people leaving at two years?
Speaker 3: Because that's below average.
Speaker 3: Is there something you're doing that's wrong?
Speaker 3: You line Because that's not right, but now I'm being snarky, but like this, this article seems to be very, I think you're right.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of like little political sprinklings in there, but for the most part, it's blaming people for a problem that you've created.
Speaker 2: Like, like, I don't know that's no, I I think I would like to know what the the culture is, because there's some companies out there that do really good at bringing in young people and developing them and letting them grow.
Speaker 2: Back in my day and people might laugh at this there are two companies that were really known for developing managers in future careers.
Speaker 2: First was enterprise rent-a-car.
Speaker 2: If you got in there and you stuck with them and took their management route, yeah you learned a lot, you developed a career.
Speaker 2: I mean, is enterprise rent-a-car to the most glamorous place to work or anything like that?
Speaker 2: No, but they had a very good routine in the other place and Sherwin-Williams was the other that developed managers and taught people to be managers and leaders and develop them.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're probably not going at either of those places, you're not going to keep those people for and once again I'm talking about people who are graduating from college in the mid, early mid 90s.
Speaker 2: And that was the thing and those people, as they went through their career, did really well.
Speaker 2: And actually here's a funny side story I interviewed at enterprise for a job as I really kind of wanted to work there because their management structure.
Speaker 2: I bombed that interview like there is no and it's not anything.
Speaker 2: I said what it was the interviewer, she.
Speaker 2: She was in her upper 20s and here I am, 22 ish, I think she unofficially dared me into a staring contest.
Speaker 2: She had locked in eye contact and didn't blink.
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to blink.
Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there staring at her.
Speaker 2: I'm not blinking, I'm talking, I'm going through the interview.
Speaker 2: I was like I don't know, I couldn't stand down, I couldn't take a breath and relax and be myself.
Speaker 2: I had to sit there eyes wide open, unblinking, staring at her with the same intensity she was staring at me, and so that was a very awkward interview, and I did not get that job.
Speaker 3: I will say a friend of a friend of mine speaking about like interviewing in the job market, like.
Speaker 3: So a friend of mine is now interviewing and they have a final interview this friday with a company now the company itself small world.
Speaker 3: A friend of a friend used to work there and that.
Speaker 3: But they used to work there like 15 years ago, 10, 15 years ago and when they, when they said they were like leaving, they could not leave fast enough because just the corporation was very, the company was very, very militant, a lot of ex-military work there and they led with aggression and that was the culture of just direct and like a lot of people, and not that I'm not saying like all places with military no, I'm not saying that but that was just like this place was rent, very militant and very like people would yell at each other and like that's how I'm sitting there.
Speaker 3: I'm like God, you got to come up with some real good interview questions to get down to that, to see if that's changed, because that sounds horrific.
Speaker 3: So hopefully that is that's changed.
Speaker 3: But what I was also going to say is like this job market's a little too crazy right now.
Speaker 3: And the same friend got a applied for a role that was like a director level human resources person and the company got back to them and I like looked at the company name.
Speaker 3: I'm like that sounds I'm not going to say the company name on here I'm like that sounds scammy.
Speaker 3: Say the company name on here like that sounds scammy.
Speaker 3: and if there's one thing you need to know about me is in my spare time I go down these weird youtube rabbit holes about scams and also mlms and pyramid schemes so they were like I like looked up the company and it says along the lines of a business that focuses on personal development and online business opportunities, with a strong emphasis on travel and time freedom, and I'm like, oh shit.
Speaker 3: I'm like that sounds like MLM.
Speaker 3: And then, sure enough, looking down, it's like this is a pyramid scheme.
Speaker 3: This is a pyramid scheme.
Speaker 3: This is so.
Speaker 3: I just want to ask this job market sucks so much.
Speaker 3: Keep the pyramid schemes out of it.
Speaker 3: People just want to find a damn job and go to work and work their time and, as we're talking about this woman from Uline, like it's not that deep.
Speaker 3: People just want to go to a job and make what they feel like is fair, and if you don't provide them for what they feel like is fair whether they're correct or not this is all about perception of fairness they are going to leave.
Speaker 3: So you need to handle that perception, handle those expectations and give people something in return so they effing stay, it's not.
Speaker 3: I hate this generational nonsense of like kids.
Speaker 3: These days they don't know what they're doing.
Speaker 3: I'm like shut up, like gen z's just building on what the millennials already learned like we already learned the scam we already learned the scam.
Speaker 3: It's a a scam.
Speaker 3: It's a scam Like unless you're bringing back pensions, unless you're bringing back really big career paths, unless you're doing stuff like that, we are going to try to find the biggest pay, but not only that.
Speaker 3: We're trying to find the best experience because we want to.
Speaker 3: And I know this about Gen X, too, or Gen Z, sorry.
Speaker 3: They want to learn, they want to grow, they want to grow, they want opportunity.
Speaker 3: And that's the same with millennials where, when they entered the workforce and spoiler alert, it's the way Gen X was, it's the way everyone is when they entered the workforce at a certain age.
Speaker 3: But it's just one of those things where, if you're not giving them a reason to stay, people are going to leave.
Speaker 2: People are going to leave them a reason to stay.
Speaker 2: People are gonna leave.
Speaker 2: Cry about it, susan, cry about it Liz, liz, yeah, whatever she's, susan, susan, karen, karen, let's cry about it, karen.
Speaker 2: No, I, I think, I, I think you hit on the head.
Speaker 2: She's envisioning a company of 30, 40 years ago where you came in day one and you worked your 30 years.
Speaker 2: I mean I've averaged well, more than double in most of my jobs, except for one.
Speaker 2: Well, most of my jobs I've stayed in.
Speaker 2: I've been at over three years and things like that.
Speaker 2: I get to places I like and I stay.
Speaker 2: And yeah, if I were to hop, sure I could make a little bit more money here or there, but there's so much for me benefits in staying where I am.
Speaker 2: And there's, you know, someone who, a hated HR but B understood HR.
Speaker 2: They had this interesting dichotomy.
Speaker 2: They were a manager I had to work very closely with.
Speaker 2: We got along.
Speaker 2: He respected me, but he did not like the function of HR and he made no bones about it.
Speaker 2: But when we're talking about retention, he goes, he goes.
Speaker 2: There's two things he goes.
Speaker 2: There's a stick and a carrot.
Speaker 2: He goes.
Speaker 2: If you have only a stick, you're going to drive people away, but only but.
Speaker 2: If you have only a carrot, that's not necessarily going to lure people away.
Speaker 2: There's got to be both a stick and a carrot from another company.
Speaker 2: If you're you know if things are looking so good, you know if you're there's nothing driving them out, you know they're going to be less likely to go even if it's other opportunity looks good.
Speaker 2: And he I've always I haven't bought into him a hundred percent in his thing, but I do believe there it's a two, there's two aspects of it.
Speaker 2: There's what's driving you out and what's pulling you elsewhere, and you have to have both to a certain extent.
Speaker 2: Now, if it's an abusive, awful environment, yeah, get the hell out.
Speaker 2: I've mentioned I only worked at the water park one year.
Speaker 2: It wasn't a horrible environment, it wasn't awful, it wasn't the right environment for me is what it was and yeah, so maybe that's their situation, but Otherwise there was something driving me out there and it was called 400 Teenagers.
Speaker 2: I could not deal with 400 teenagers any longer.
Speaker 3: If I had hair.
Speaker 2: I would have been pulling it out but that was pushing me out.
Speaker 2: And then I found a job, but sort of along those lines, when I was looking for a job to leave the water park.
Speaker 2: My very first interview was with a company.
Speaker 2: I applied online.
Speaker 2: I remember their ad.
Speaker 2: They were an IT services firm da da, da, da da.
Speaker 2: And the ad on wherever it was LinkedIn Indeed wherever made it look really cool.
Speaker 2: I sent in my resume, got an interview, I go in and I go through the interview and then it's time for me to ask questions.
Speaker 2: I'm like well, tell me about you know about IT services and how many IT developers and things you have.
Speaker 2: They had the whole floor of this building and I was like she goes, well, we have two.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh well, what is the rest of the company?
Speaker 2: And it was a call center and it was a call center designed to sell their software.
Speaker 2: That these two developers were it.
Speaker 2: Just if you're marketing your position as a director of HR for an IT services firm, but you have two people that do IT work and you know 200 call center people, yeah, that's, that's not a, that's not IT services.
Speaker 2: I just did not take well to that at all and they called me for a second interview.
Speaker 2: I was like I'm sorry, I'm just not take well to that at all.
Speaker 2: And they called me for a second interview.
Speaker 2: I was like I'm sorry, I'm just not interested in this position.
Speaker 2: And they called me like back twice after I told them I'm really not interested in this position.
Speaker 2: I was like tell me your call center, yeah, and things as I.
Speaker 2: You know, some people gosh.
Speaker 2: There's a guy who has I haven't listened to this podcast in a long time.
Speaker 2: He's down in Orlando, florida area and he loves working at call center.
Speaker 2: He's an HR person there and I just can't see myself at just the what I picture and envision.
Speaker 2: No firsthand experience of the turnover and the issues you have to deal with.
Speaker 2: I just yeah, I.
Speaker 3: That wouldn't be for the right environment for me, so, so yeah, I think there's like a lot, because Uline kind of reminds me of like I know they they probably do like a lot of packaging and delivering of products.
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking it's like a warehouse environment with a lot of like stock man, like actual inventory management and the shipping of things and stuff like that, which sounds like a lot of a lot.
Speaker 3: Like a company I used to work for that was very it was manufacturing, but kind of the same thing just like a lot of people working on the lines, doing the things, packing the things, shipping the things.
Speaker 3: And, to be honest with you, that isn't unless you're someone who is wanting to go down to work up to a supervisor, to work up to a manager, to work up, like from a floor worker up, up, up Like there's going to be a lot of turnover because individuals who are working on like a manufacturing floor or a floor environment, unless they, unless they have a desire to move into management, they've, they've reached, they've reached it.
Speaker 3: You know that's what they want to do, that's what they're going to do and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, like again, you got to find ways to keep them here because that carrot of bigger pay is out there, yeah, and also, just get rid of bullshit, like being in, like, of course, this is where it's applicable, because not all jobs can be done remotely, but where is it like?
Speaker 3: Stop getting rid of?
Speaker 3: Get rid of bullshit rules and policies.
Speaker 3: I worked at a home builder and we had to be every single person.
Speaker 3: All employees had to be in their seats at 8 am and no one could leave before 5 pm.
Speaker 3: And if you did, they would notice and it was just like.
Speaker 3: This was a few years ago.
Speaker 3: This was like 2020.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, and even when the pandemic hit, we were a what is that?
Speaker 3: Critical roles because we were building homes.
Speaker 3: So so, yeah, like, even with that, you had to be in the office.
Speaker 3: You can wear masks.
Speaker 3: If you have your own personal office, there's no reason why you have to work from home.
Speaker 3: You close your office door.
Speaker 3: I'm like why?
Speaker 3: These are stupid rules and I quit because of the stupid rules.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my overt, my personal aversion to the working from home is I just never got in the flow.
Speaker 2: I never regularly worked from home, even during the pandemic, and I didn't start working from home until about a year and a half ago.
Speaker 2: Our policy even before pre-pandemic was certain roles could work from home two days a week, and then we were very flexible during the pandemic time, but I still came into the office during the whole pandemic five days a week in the office, 40 hours, because that's what I liked.
Speaker 2: And then my first long period of working from home was when, first, my wife and children got COVID and so I stayed home as I didn't want to bring it to the office with me, right?
Speaker 2: So I stayed at home and then, as they're recovering, I finally caught.
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to get through the whole thing, but as they're recovering, I finally got it, and that was like years, it wasn't 2020.
Speaker 2: It was like 2021 or later when I finally got it and I just never got in the groove of working from home.
Speaker 2: And then when I moved, I moved half an hour away, further away from my work than I was living, and that's when I decided, okay, I was going to do one day a week from home and you have to get in a sink in the flow of it and doing one day a week, you never get in that sink in that flow and I I never called in.
Speaker 2: So I, just a few months ago or maybe the end of last year, I don't remember exactly I said you know what?
Speaker 2: I'm just going to go to the office every single day.
Speaker 2: I I prefer the office, like today.
Speaker 2: I had a.
Speaker 2: I liked being in the office.
Speaker 2: I got to be involved in some things that I'm not normally involved with and I was like if I was sitting at home, I say what can I help, what can I do?
Speaker 2: And yeah, I like doing things like that, I like being around people.
Speaker 2: But my wife, on the other hand, when the covid happened and they sent them home, she has excelled working from home, yeah, and she goes into the office once every other week.
Speaker 2: She and another employee rotates to go in as they do payroll.
Speaker 2: So they got to go in once a week before payrolls to get the liens and garnishments and all those other fun things they need to get out of the office.
Speaker 2: And she goes in once a week and does that.
Speaker 2: But she likes going to the office when it is time to go.
Speaker 2: Once a week she goes.
Speaker 2: You know, twice a month is perfectly fine by me to go in the office.
Speaker 2: She still has a physical office there and they're actually redecorating the office right now as we speak and she's like, oh, that's nice, she's got nothing personal.
Speaker 2: No family pictures there anymore.
Speaker 2: No, nothing in the office anymore.
Speaker 2: You know, the office is just sort of where she hangs out while she's at work and goes to work.
Speaker 2: But most of the time she says she's out there chit-chatting with other people.
Speaker 2: You know, like, apparently hr is, she's right around the corner from hr and they are in the office five days a week and accounting is in the office five days a week, so she's around the corner from them and hangs out and chit chats with them and things like that.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I work from home is not if the company manages it well and takes it with the right attitude and presents it in the right framework of of how it should be done.
Speaker 2: Because, yes, you're definitely going to have people who are slackers and are working from home.
Speaker 2: I can think of someone who would post on Facebook regularly about being at the pool while they were working at home and things like that, or being at the beach and and things like that, while they were supposed to be working from home, and I don't know who would do that.
Speaker 2: But those are the.
Speaker 2: Those are the.
Speaker 2: Those are the people that this lady from you line.
Speaker 2: She sees those posts and knows here's those same people.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I'm working from home at the beach, and that means they're not answering your emails.
Speaker 2: You're not being diligent, you know there's truth to that.
Speaker 2: There really is and there's people who do that, but that's when you, as a manager, handle that.
Speaker 2: Say, hey, warren, yeah, yeah, everybody seems to be talking about your facebook post while you're you're at the beach when you were supposed to be working today one.
Speaker 3: Let's have a little conversation about that I will say like I'm speaking from this from a very from from the lens of someone who works in a corporate environment where there is flexibility, and I work for an organization where all the work can be done remotely.
Speaker 3: So again, this is a very specific perspective, but it's funny enough.
Speaker 3: As we were like kind of prepping for this episode tonight, I did a quick, I went with my little AI assistant and one of the things that came up this week from the guardian was like it was with workplace flexibility and hybrid working and asynchronous working, like there is a shift from thinking about hours worked versus the energy, that energy flow.
Speaker 3: So it's not like workflow during time, but it's like work produced during energy flows, which sounds really weird but it makes sense in my head.
Speaker 3: But it's very like if, if you're a morning person, then you get all your work done in the morning boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Speaker 3: And let's say like that's your, that's the way your brain is wired, that's the way your internal clock is.
Speaker 3: And let's say you go into the office and you get all your work like a massive amount of bulk of your work done before lunch and you're working from home.
Speaker 3: Let's say yeah, like go do your laundry, go clean the bathroom during a break, I don't care, cause you're still being productive at work.
Speaker 3: If you're one of those people who's more you know gets all of their work done, plus some maybe in the afternoon, because that's when your energy clock, your internal clock, is lean into that like you don't need to be sitting at your desk doing like forcing yourself the emotional labor to do something, when instead you, if you naturally lean into like those times of productivity, it's just going to be more.
Speaker 3: You're going to get more done.
Speaker 3: That's the argument.
Speaker 3: The argument is you're going to get more work done.
Speaker 3: It's going to be more efficient because you're just kind of leaning into those flows instead of just sitting nine to five at a desk.
Speaker 3: And I get that because that's how I work, I'm, I am a, I am.
Speaker 3: I am the brightest from 10 am to 3 pm.
Speaker 3: Anytime outside of that, I am the brightest from 10 am to 3 pm.
Speaker 3: Anytime I'm outside of that.
Speaker 3: I am like starting to hit a wall.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do very creative things.
Speaker 3: I may be making a little more mistakes if I'm like fatigued.
Speaker 3: So I will take a break and I cleaned my old bathroom yesterday for an hour and I don't care, like that's just what I did.
Speaker 3: And guess what?
Speaker 3: Work life that is life balance.
Speaker 3: I'm able to do my work really well.
Speaker 3: I spit out a crap ton of job aids that I made and I cleaned my bathroom.
Speaker 3: So what more do you want from me?
Speaker 3: You wine lady?
Speaker 2: That's a perfect example you can.
Speaker 2: If you have the right discipline, you can do that.
Speaker 2: That's a perfect example you can.
Speaker 2: If you have the right discipline, you can do that.
Speaker 2: And I absolutely agree with the theory of in situations where it's possible.
Speaker 2: If I am not a morning person, I am dragging ass.
Speaker 2: I can't even remember leaving the house most mornings.
Speaker 2: I feel like I wake up at work all of a sudden With my hour and a half commute.
Speaker 2: I don't know where I was driving or anything like that, but I wake up at work and then around 10 o'clock I'm starting to hit my stride and two or three I'm like, okay, the stride is slowing down a little bit.
Speaker 2: But for my assistant, she is a morning person and she likes being here in the morning and she asked to modify her hours to be earlier.
Speaker 2: I'm like, sure, I don't care.
Speaker 2: She is so funny at times I don't know if she actively listens to it, probably, or podcasts it up, but she's so funny.
Speaker 2: She was asked about leaving early.
Speaker 2: I'm like, as long as things are done, I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to break myself of the habit of saying I don't care.
Speaker 2: But I said as long as things are done, I don't care.
Speaker 2: I'd rather you leave than sit there and pretend to be busy for half an hour and and things like that, or coming up.
Speaker 2: I mean, if, if you leave early and I'm like, oh my god, where where is this, why isn't this done, then we got an issue.
Speaker 2: But if everything's done and there's no reason for you to just twitter your thumbs or make busy work or anything like that, and you, you can.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm trying to be as open with her as I can, but she's really she's like I don't know what the right word is she's very diligent.
Speaker 2: I guess it's not as important to me.
Speaker 2: I will.
Speaker 3: I will also say, like my little tangent there it goes into the workspace too.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm, I'm right in the middle, I'm 50, 50.
Speaker 3: I love working from home, but I also love seeing people in person, building those relationships and like brainstorming in groups.
Speaker 3: Like I love that in-person piece too.
Speaker 3: I'm just asking that, as companies are bringing people, are calling people back into the office, which is natural, because my theory is like the pendulum has swung.
Speaker 3: Right, everyone wanted remote work.
Speaker 3: We've been in remote work for about five years now.
Speaker 3: The pendulum is slowly going to swing and that's driven by the employee, not the employer.
Speaker 3: The employee will want to come back to the office.
Speaker 3: The employee will want a hybrid work environment.
Speaker 3: That's what they're going to be seeing, because they're going to start to feel isolation.
Speaker 3: My only ask is that, as we're calling people back for a hybrid environment, let's do it intentionally and let's not put these stupid things in.
Speaker 3: It's like, well, if you're going to be in the office, we have to be butts in seats eight to five and like, right, you have to still allow people the flexibility they've had for the past five years.
Speaker 3: Like if I need to leave because great example, friday afternoon, bean has physical therapy for her little feet and it's like I need.
Speaker 3: I don't want people giving me side eye.
Speaker 3: I don't want people judging me like we've left all of that back in the 2010s.
Speaker 3: Like those are done.
Speaker 3: Let people come to work with purpose and, if they need to leave to go take care of stuff like, as long as their productivity is great and they're excellent employees and they're doing what is asked, surprisingly, I'm going to guarantee, with that flexibility, they will do even more.
Speaker 3: But don't, when you're putting these policies back for hybrid work, don't make stupid rules that don't make sense, because then you're going to be like this Uline woman who's like where are all the people going?
Speaker 3: I can tell you where the people are going.
Speaker 3: They're going to companies with more flexible cultures and environments.
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of that this goes back to the 90s I mentioned.
Speaker 2: I was living in Maryland, I was working in the DC area in general, the company I worked for we had core hours and that was the first time I'd ever heard of core hours.
Speaker 3: Yes, I love core hours.
Speaker 2: You know our company core hours are, let's say they're 10 to 3.
Speaker 2: You can come in at 10, and that just means you're leaving at 7 or whatever.
Speaker 2: I can't do the math there.
Speaker 2: Or you can come in at 7 and leave at 3.
Speaker 2: But the core hours, you know, they wanted everybody there 10 to 3.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were so many companies that did that.
Speaker 2: Because, let me tell you in this was the 90s, dc traffic was horrible in the 90s.
Speaker 2: I can't fathom what it would be today.
Speaker 2: I would, I don't know, I would go crazy up there now.
Speaker 2: But my company, the express purpose, was to let employees avoid the worst of the traffic.
Speaker 2: If you were a morning person, you could avoid it coming in the morning.
Speaker 2: If you were an afternoon person, you could avoid it coming after the main rush hour and it worked real well.
Speaker 2: They very rarely ever had anything going on that was outside the core hours.
Speaker 2: And if they did, it was one of the things.
Speaker 2: We've been flexible with you.
Speaker 2: You're going to have to be flexible with us.
Speaker 2: We can.
Speaker 2: You know we can't get around this eight 30 meeting this week.
Speaker 2: Or you know our client is coming at eight 30.
Speaker 2: That's when they can be here.
Speaker 2: So, yes, you're going to be here and that happened.
Speaker 2: I can count on my fingers how many times things like that would happen, but it's like everybody Okay, it would be okay.
Speaker 2: Next Thursday it's going to be everybody's here for whatever.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't a thing, it really wasn't, and I think everybody appreciated it.
Speaker 3: I know we do this, I know we're going along too, but I know we do this in HR as a CYA, Like we sometimes create policies for the lowest denominator of the group.
Speaker 3: Yes, Just like.
Speaker 3: I think we kind of need to stop doing that.
Speaker 3: Like we need to stop making blanket policies because we assume people will take advantage of something.
Speaker 3: We need to stop making policies because we assume the worst in people, because I'm this is me being very, not jaded.
Speaker 3: This is a personal opinion.
Speaker 3: I think about 90% of the people are.
Speaker 3: I think 90% of people 95, 95% of people just want to come to work and do a good job, go home and live their life and if you have that, like one person who's taking advantage of permissive time, who's taking who's not dressing appropriately at work, or who may be like taking advantage of core hours here and there, like, have a conversation with that person and manage that individual, we don't need to make these I'm going to say oppressive policies.
Speaker 3: We're gone, it's again.
Speaker 3: We're past that.
Speaker 3: Just learn to manage.
Speaker 3: Train your leaders to manage, that's all.
Speaker 2: Well, last thing, I worked for a company and, being in HR, I'm starting my first day, bright-eyed, bushy tail.
Speaker 2: And I said and being in HR, I'm starting my first day, bright-eyed, bushy-tail and I said to the director of HR I said I didn't get a copy of the handbook.
Speaker 2: I want to get a copy of the handbook, I want to dive into it and really become familiar with it.
Speaker 2: And she said and this was a fairly a good mid-sized company, not large, but we don't have a handbook.
Speaker 2: I was like what she says't have a handbook.
Speaker 2: I was like what she says, we have a few individual policies.
Speaker 2: And she said, which pointed me to the intranet site, the internal website, where they were.
Speaker 2: And she goes, but she goes.
Speaker 2: I really like to minimize policies to maximize flexibility and even though she was not one of my favorite managers, was not one of my favorite managers leaders that I had.
Speaker 2: That philosophy has stuck with me ever since.
Speaker 2: Now I completely disagree with not having a handbook, but I do agree with the philosophy of minimizing policies to maximize flexibility Because, yeah, let's deal with things on a one-on-one situation and, you know, if it's something's something big, yeah, we'll probably need to make a policy or something out of it but.
Speaker 2: If it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not huge, you know.
Speaker 2: If it's only one person every 10 years that's having this problem, you don't need a policy for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all right.
Speaker 2: Well, this has been really long.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have some fun editing this.
Speaker 2: We went everywhere with it, but let's see here, get our thank yous out of the way.
Speaker 2: So our Patreon supporters Hallie, the original Jaded HR, rockstar Bill and Mike, thank you very much for supporting us on Patreon.
Speaker 2: You can too.
Speaker 2: I did look for reviews.
Speaker 2: Very briefly, I only checked Apple.
Speaker 2: I did not see any new reviews, so please review us.
Speaker 2: That's how people are going to be able to find us.
Speaker 2: Spread the word.
Speaker 2: You know we're having near record months of downloads.
Speaker 2: Lately.
Speaker 2: We we've been like dozens.
Speaker 2: For may, we were literally less than 100 downloads away from a record, and we didn't publish an episode at the end of may like we were supposed to, so we would have hit a record then.
Speaker 2: June was a good month for downloads.
Speaker 2: So not close well, not close to record, but it's.
Speaker 2: June was a good month for downloads.
Speaker 2: So not close, well, not close to record, but it's still a very good month for downloads, and so hopefully we'll do.
Speaker 2: Oh, actually, july probably is not going to be a good month because we're not recording.
Speaker 2: Our next episode is not going to be until August the 7th.
Speaker 3: Because Warren is going on a mini retirement.
Speaker 2: I am going on a mini retirement outside of the country and I am going to be at all-inclusive resorts, so all the alcohol I can drink, I am intending on being buzzed for multiple weeks at a time and not getting beyond buzzed, but having some good times.
Speaker 3: And you have to tell me if this happens to you.
Speaker 3: Every time Kevin and I go on a cruise or a resort where there's just like people you meet right, we always seem to find the other HR people every single effing time and it's like clockwork and they are usually the most unhinged people on vacation.
Speaker 3: Like we were just floating in the pool on our last cruise and this woman floats up to us and she's a little drunk but very talkative and very extroverted and after a couple minutes of talking she's like a VP of HR at some company and we're like we're in HR too.
Speaker 3: That woman was like, oh, we're best friends now.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, and she was getting shots.
Speaker 3: She was like I know what you go through.
Speaker 3: We're here to party and it was very fun.
Speaker 3: This has happened three times.
Speaker 3: The HR people on vacation pro tip for anyone who is not in HR Go find them out, because we're the ones that are letting off the most steam and we are most likely the most unhinged people at the pool bar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm super excited.
Speaker 2: This is my first vacation since 1999 without any kids involved.
Speaker 2: So, yes, very excited about that.
Speaker 2: But going to your point about unhinged HR, you know Feathers and I were fraternity brothers.
Speaker 2: We tailgate all football season long together and we're together and people always like you two are in HR.
Speaker 2: We're like we're a little wild and crazy and we get out there sometimes and you two are in HR Like yep.
Speaker 3: This is why we are like that.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, we know how to party, we know how to throw down, so yeah, but yeah, next episode will be August 7th.
Speaker 2: So enjoy your break from us.
Speaker 2: Please come back in August and we'll have some.
Speaker 2: We we're planning what I think is going to be like a truly epic episode.
Speaker 2: That's just too good.
Speaker 2: I meant to.
Speaker 2: I meant to do it this week.
Speaker 2: I just ran out of time, but I think I'll be able to come up with some time to do all the the pre, the work that's going to need to go into this ahead of time.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it'll be.
Speaker 2: I think maybe we'll try that one in August and then maybe we'll do we'll also have a Office episode for the Alliance coming up soon too.
Speaker 2: So yay, wow, really long episode.
Speaker 2: We'll edit it down.
Speaker 2: Try and keep it around an hour, even though it's almost an hour and a half.
Speaker 2: What's wrong with us, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Good episode, though.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much to everybody.
Speaker 2: But, as all, oh, I gave our Patreon supporters, but the intro is Andrew Culpa and the music is the underscore orchestra.
Speaker 2: Devil with the devil.
Speaker 2: So that's what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2: As always, I'm Warren.
Speaker 3: I'm Cece.
Speaker 2: And we're here helping you survive.
Speaker 2: Hr one.
Speaker 2: What the fuck moment at a time.
Speaker 2: Yay.