I'm so glad you decided to do a documentary on it because coming up, you know, sometimes we hear in general just don't get pregnant, Just don't get pregnant.
Speaker 2:Just don't go out and get pregnant.
Speaker 1:Yes, and also we have received the other information of okay, this is when you need to get pregnant. You know that type of thing, you know? Tell me what made you decide to do a documentary feature on infertility.
Speaker 3:It wasn't a decision. Really, I kind of feel like the film found me. I went in for my annual gynecological exam and my doctor who's excellent, black woman, ivy League educated and trained looked at my chart and she said Ms Lockley, you have a birthday coming up. Your eggs are turning 41. What do you want to do with them? And whatever else? She said. I don't know, because I blacked out Just for the moment. I don't know. And she kept talking you know great best, I met her but I just kind of blacked out.
Speaker 3:I am a type A person I know what I'm doing with life, I know what projects I'm working on, like I know these things. So the fact that she was asking me something that was important and I had no clue what she was asking me, I didn't like that feeling. So I started researching. Well, what does she mean? Like, what can I do with eggs? What does one do with them? I mean at the time, seven, eight years ago, nobody was really having this conversation, especially not people who look like us.
Speaker 3:So I started researching and my goal was to do a 15-minute short that I could pay for myself Independent short docs.
Speaker 3:So I produce, as like that's what I do in my real life, not direct. I'm a director by default but I knew I could do like a thousand dollars per minute in that, like $15,000. And I could, you know, do this short film to make sure that the girls I mentor, nieces, the young women coming behind me, don't wake up at almost 41 trying to figure out what to do with an egg. And what happened is, if I would have this conversation with anybody while I was researching, they would say, well, you know this person, or this person's cousin, or you know this person. And it ended up that in my circle of peers I knew someone really across the spectrum spectrum of reproductive health and that runs the gamut from women who are child free by choice, all the way to women who need our required surrogacy to complete their families. So that 15 minutes that I thought I was gonna do ended up being like five hours worth of interviews and footage and other people had to help me pay for it.
Speaker 1:You know what this documentary? Is so detailed. It has all kinds of information. It's very educational. It's very impactful, makes you want to tear up sometimes when you hear the stories and you see the journey and you can actually feel the pain of the women in the film, but you also rejoice with some of the results we see as well. Very educational Now, I know Robin. You're in the film as well. Being a therapist, I can imagine what you experience. You know, dealing with black women.
Speaker 2:It was such an honor to be able to be a part of it. And who knew that Queda's project would become this far-reaching? I always tell people there are certain people in my life. They can call me and ask me to do jump rope, and I'm going to jump rope. So if Queda calls, I'm going to say yes, right. And so I had no idea the magnitude of it. But, like I shared with you, this is a very personal journey for me. I'm the mother of three daughters and I've been pregnant five times, so if you can imagine what that means it's personal for me. Then, as a therapist, of course I have this topic, this reality across the gamut show up on my couch, if not weekly, every other week somebody is dealing with the realities of this topic every other week, somebody is dealing with the realities of this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the somebodies that come on your couch and the many women that are in this documentary, but also we have, like, celebrities who are in your film, who are open and they talk about this. They're very open. Who are some of the people in the documentary?
Speaker 3:We have Keisha Knight Pulliam, andra Day and Kalei Stewart, and I'll tell you a little bit about each of them. So with Keisha Knight Pulliam, we both went to Spelman. We are both Adelta, so that's how I know she's my special. So when Robin says like I could call and she'll answer, keisha's like that too. So I called Keisha and I said, okay, I need a narrator. I'm working on a film. It's a documentary and I have no budget and I need a narrator. So she was like yes, send me the script. She had a podcast at the time, so she went and shot it. When she did a podcast, what happened is Keisha ended up needing IVF. So she started taping herself and she caught and was like, well, this is happening, I'm going to self tape. Let me know if you want to use it. Of course we want to tell the story.
Speaker 3:And then COVID hits in the middle of her procedure, which had to stop. And part of what people didn't pay attention to when COVID hit, you could go to the hospital for essential procedures like a heart attack. You could go to the hospital. Ivf was not considered an essential procedure. So wherever you were with that, you had to stop. You didn't get your money back. So if you pay $25,000, your shots have started, you've taken your test, they took your blood pressure, all of these body metrics that they have to take you don't get your money back. So for some and what she says in the film, what Keisha says is like who knew it was the price of a car? Because that's how much it ends up costing and there's not like an insurance plan that if the world stops and you can't go to the hospital, can you get your money back. So we have women across the gamut middle class, upper middle class who you don't know how they struggle to even get the money in the first place to pay for this and there was no insurance. So, while the world was on pause, there was a certain heartbreak that was happening in this country, and that was with women, families, couples, who their procedure stopped in the middle of all of it.
Speaker 3:And then what do you do? So I'm happy to say, keisha now has a bouncing baby boy, so that worked out, but so she's in it and we took the time to show this story, not just because it's her, but because this was happening to so many people. And it was like a silent. It was very silent. Nobody talked about it. So we have her. We have Andrea Day, who is Oscar nominated, golden Globe winning. She did a movie that most of us are familiar with now Billie Holiday story. Before she could do this story, if you are the key like if you're in the one spot on a film you have to get approval, like an insurance writer, and in order to do that you have to go to your doctor and get the physical exam and then they say like yes, you're healthy enough to do this film. She goes in and they tell her that because she has to lose like a lot of weight in a short window of time, they could not promise her that she would have her fertility on the other side of it.
Speaker 4:She said you know, you should probably freeze your eggs, you know, because you're going to put your body through a lot of trauma and you're 34 years old, and so that kind of shocked me because, you know, when I was younger probably like 2021, I really didn't have intentions of having children. And as I got older, I definitely developed a love for children and I wanted to have my own kids and I just assumed that I had time. You know what I mean. I was like I'm good, I'm not worried about it, and so when she hit me with that, that's when I started to just kind of look up certain statistics, and then, recently, hearing more information about how fertility affects black women was really, you know, startling for me. I'm in it right now and I definitely want to have kids, but I just want to make sure I'm informed.
Speaker 3:So she was gracious enough to share her story with us. And then Kelly a couple of friends, including Keisha, had mentioned her like you need to meet Kelly, and we just had never connected. One of her best friends called me one day and said go on Instagram right now. Go to Kelly Stewart's page. I go, kelly is holding court.
Speaker 3:Ok, in the middle of Instagram there was a reality show where a doctor said you can't freeze your eggs if you were past like 30 or something. Kelly froze her eggs at almost 40 or like right at 40. And so all of the people were in her comments like, oh, oh, my God, am I having a, you know, nervous breakdown today or not? Because this woman just said this on the show. And so Kelly was like dispelling some of those myths Can you freeze your eggs at 40? You can't.
Speaker 3:Everybody's body ages differently, so you have to go get your own test. She was fine and she her. She most people have like five eggs or seven eggs. She had like 20 something eggs and she was fine and she her, um, she, most people have like five eggs or seven eggs. She had like 20 something eggs and she was almost 40. So it was important to to just tell that story. Like your body is not your body, your body is not my body. Um, we all age differently. Our bodies, like you might be 20 and and have low ovarian reserve. You might be 40 and have a robust one.
Speaker 1:So the important thing is get to a doctor.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Let the doctor tell you what's right for you, your body. You have a slogan. You said my eggs, my business. Yes, what does that mean? My eggs, my business? Because you break it down a little bit more in the documentary.
Speaker 3:So at this big age that I am now, for 20 years, it doesn't matter if it was like Thanksgiving, the holidays, just with your friends, with their parents. Everybody wants to know are you having a baby, when are you having a baby? Or, if you have one, they want to know when are you giving them a brother, when are you giving them a sister? And really that's nobody's business, because you don't know somebody's journey and I have at this point I have many friends, but at the time I had a friend who one of your sororities. She was on Facebook and said, basically stop asking me this question, because people didn't know she and her husband had been trying. People didn't care.
Speaker 3:So if they see her bloated, maybe she ate pizza, a slice of pizza, and her stomach is a little bigger. Maybe she's four months into shots and injections to try to do IVF. It is nobody's business what somebody's doing with their eggs, their uterus, it's just nobody's business. And we asked this question, um, not from like a, a bad place. Uh, when I was on with Gayle King, that was one of the things she said. She's like oh my god, I feel bad because I talk about this all the time. I ask people this all the time. Um, so we're not asking it from like this malicious place. The reality is, is nobody's business. If it was your business, you would already know the answer. So it was important for me to start the film with that Like if this is not about you and your eggs, don't ask this woman what she's doing with hers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my eggs, my business.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I put it on a.
Speaker 1:T-shirt. Put it on a t-shirt. Put it on a t-shirt because that is something powerful. Now, when women come to you, what are some steps that you give them? Because we talked about earlier how it's an emotional journey. You know it's a painful journey, especially when you're trying and you're trying and it's just not happening. And then you're, you know, sometimes you don't want to talk to people because you don't know who to talk to, who to share this story with you. Know, um, what steps can you give a woman going through this?
Speaker 2:well, the very first step is just to create a space that the woman feels comfortable and free of judgment, free zone that allows her to express where she is right. So when you ask, how do you support someone of the steps you give when they're going through it that it could be a myriad of things, it could be so many things that they are going through. It could be that they are longing to give birth and have not been able to. What I'm really finding are women who are beyond what is considered the normal.
Speaker 2:I hate using that word that's the best word optimal age and trying to figure out what does that mean for me? Am I grieving the hope of a child? Is there still opportunity? So I'm creating a space. That's the whole heartbeat of my practice. Let me create a space where you can share without a filter. Watch this. Without a filter, you can share openly, just where you are. Because so many of us internalize and I promise, when you stuff, it's going to come out somehow. It comes out with irritation towards your spouse, it comes out with irritation toward other children, with friends. It comes out. So I'm just creating a space so that you can say this is what I'm experiencing, this is what I am afraid of and this is what I'm really longing for.
Speaker 1:That's where we start Right and you know you said you mentioned the word spouse in there. So you say you have a couple and they're going through this. What would you share or advice would you give a couple to say let's not fight each other, because you know tensions can get high. But how do we work through this?
Speaker 2:Now you are touching on an area that's my area, and let me, let me say what I would want to communicate to that spouse. I would particularly want to communicate to the husband or the partner. I would want to say that the process of attempting to have a child, the journey of motherhood, is intense, and while it happens, often it is not a quote unquote normal experience. This is a miracle and it requires all of who that woman is, even if she is adopting. It requires all of who she is. And so what I would want, if I could create, what would be optimal for me, is that that man or that partner has their own mentor, because they have their own realities, they have their own challenges, they need their own space, but someone that could support them so that they could be fully supportive of the woman.
Speaker 2:Because unfortunately, if I could say, what's an epidemic that's taking place is that women, even within their own now, my passion is marriage, so you keep hearing me say that terminology Women, within the sanctity of their own marriage, are having to not only fight their emotional realities, they're having to fight the emotional realities of their partner, and that's heartbreaking to me. And so that process you need. You heard me say mind, body and spirit. You need all aspects of who you are centered on creating this, this reality. You need support from your partner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go back and say that again. Rewind, if you could. You said they're fighting the emotional, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the woman is dealing with all that comes with the process of attempting to have a child and what we have to understand. Like Queda just said, we don't know how many times she's attempted, we don't know what her story I love talking about this, the story she's telling herself. It's so much going on with her, but her partner has their own emotional realities as well, and my heartbeat is for women and for couples. But that man has his own emotional realities as well, often his own fears that he hasn't even been able to articulate. So I am not wanting to minimize what he is experiencing. I'm just saying, through this process, let's get him a therapist, let's get him a big brother, let's get him a pastor. Let's get somebody a big brother, let's get him a pastor, let's get somebody who is walking with him so that he can then be emotionally available for her.
Speaker 2:And what does that look like? Encouragement, letting her know that I love you regardless of what's happening. I love you regardless of what the outcome is going to be. We are in this together. You're on. The documentary is that we were not created for Isolation Island. That is what I need to put on a t-shirt.
Speaker 1:I'm going to write that we were not created for.
Speaker 2:Isolation Island, because so many women fight private battles by themselves. They go inward because when they've tried because that strong black woman idea or that superwoman idea, when you try to be vulnerable, especially when you're type A women like you and I, when we show vulnerability, it's brush it, girl, you'll be all right. Yeah, child, everybody deals with that. And so when that happens, what do we do? Oh, okay, I don't have a safe space. And so we fight so many private battles because of shame, because of fear, because of the story that we have created or that has been created for us. I could go on and on, so I'll stop here. I just want women to not do it by themselves. It doesn't have to be a hundred of people. Get you a solid three or four. Build your team I call it an advisory board Build your team of people that are insulating you as you go through this process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you see why we had to have her in the film. I see why you had to have her in the film.
Speaker 1:I see why you had to have this documentary and although it's been out for a little bit, it is important that the story continues until as many women that needs to see this film sees it. So, guys, I'm going to encourage you, be sure to see Eggs Over Easy. Now, before we leave, I like to do myth busters. I'm going to do a little true and false with the two of you Okay, here we go. Okay, so all right. So first myth, true or false? Black women are less likely to experience infertility.
Speaker 3:That's false and you can pull the studies. We are twice as likely to experience infertility and half as likely to get treatment. So you do have like some right numbers but in the wrong spots. So twice as likely to experience infertility, half as likely to seek treatmenttility, half as likely to seek treatment. Partly because of the shame of it, partly because historically we're like fertile myrtle.
Speaker 3:That's the trope, the fertile myrtle trope. We're supposed to be able to do this naturally. So there's a shame attached to not being able to do it, so we don't go to the doctor. The other part of it is financial. We feel like if we can't, if we need to have help, we can't even afford to do it. And then when you look at us making like 61 to it fluctuates 58 to 61 cents on the dollar of white men. So we that's already like a financial hurdle, and then just the cost is so extreme for a lot of women. So if I can't pay for the services I need, why even go? So twice as likely to have infertility, half as likely to get treatment.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true or false? Infertility is primarily a problem for older women, so it doesn't affect young black women.
Speaker 2:Well, we know that that is a myth. It's false. You know what's interesting? When I was getting ready to, when I was ready to start having a child, I was five years into my marriage and I got married relatively young. So I had to be about 32, I guess when I started preparing to have a child maybe a little younger than that, and I could not get pregnant. I could not get pregnant. We were trying, we were trying and the doctor told me you have a year to try to get pregnant. I could not get pregnant. We were trying, we were trying and the doctor told me you have a year to try to get pregnant and then we need to start some type of support. And so I got pregnant within that year.
Speaker 2:But at time for me was very overwhelming. We missed a word that we have to make sure we say even when we talk about that question there is a trauma attached to this reality for us and it's a trauma that goes back way back into the times of slavery. Right, and as people of color, and particularly black people, black women, we have to understand how that trauma based reality is even fused into the I know I keep saying it the stories we tell ourselves because a lot of them are subconscious that fertile myrtle. If I can't get pregnant, what do we say? What is wrong with me? So then that begins to further this idea of shame. Right, and that comes from. We could spend a whole another session talking about the trauma of this process.
Speaker 2:But when we believe that infertility is not happening to young black women, then we continue to spread that narrative that something is wrong with me. And that's why I loved Queda saying when we start talking to each other, when we just start talking and it doesn't have to be on Facebook, it can be, but it doesn't have to be on Facebook. Just pull a sister to the side and say girl, I got to ask you a question. You'll be surprised at how open she becomes. So create some spaces so that we can shine a light on those dark places in our life, so that we can have the light that's needed to do what we long for.
Speaker 3:One thing Robin said what is happening to me? I think we need to put a pin there on. Most of the time when we go in for testing, it starts with the woman. What is happening to me? She's asking that because we focus on women, but the numbers are one-third of infertility is female, one-third is male and one-third is couples. So why? Why? When we're like what's wrong with me?
Speaker 1:it might not be you the second false right here infertility is solely a female issue and black men don't experience absolutely that absolutely all day long, and tomorrow too and tomorrow and the next day.
Speaker 3:One of the things that was so telling. I did not and it was a surprise, surprise things that happened from this documentary. Men were tuned in. That was not our target audience. It's black women and fertility. So we never expected this conversation with men. They filled up my DM. So we did a live with a couple of men who were part of the equation and there is a different type of shame that black men carry when they are dealing with infertility. Yes, we have our thing and it's historical and it does go back to slavery. Black men, they were bucks back then and they were like you could buy them for more money, just like a woman who was of reproductive age. They would pay more money for them if they were fertile as well.
Speaker 3:All of the masculine I don't want to call it toxic masculinity, I would just call it masculinity and you could put whatever tag you want to put to it. But they don't even get like, they don't get to cry about it, they don't get to be upset about it. So a dear friend, she and her husband their infertility, although she was tested for months and months and months and it wasn't her, it wasn't her. It wasn't her, wasn't her, wasn't her? He had a low sperm count. We don't have this conversation because men can't have a. Men can't have a low sperm count. So we don't have the conversation at all. And it wasn't her. It was his sperm count that was low and she has a book out but she uses a different name to make sure that he still is safe within, like she could tell the story but still keep him safe, and that was what they chose to do. But the fact that we don't even it's not even a, we don't even think about it. We don't put them in the equation at all, whatsoever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. It takes somebody to point out a doctor and say well, you know, it could be something else going on. Powerful ladies.
Speaker 2:Any final comments, final words?
Speaker 3:I'll let you go this is your documentary a final word I would just say ask early. That's what we employ everybody. If you have girls in your your life, give them the words to ask their doctors, like you may. If a girl is in bed a day, one day a month, because her period is so bad she can't get out of bed, that's not normal and our culture is normal, but that should not be happening. You should not have debilitating cramps and I was like 40 when I finally figured that out. Give her the words to ask the doctor. I am in bed with cramps one day a month, so that means I lose 12 days per year over the course of a decade. That's what, 120 days out of my life that I don't get to have because of this.
Speaker 3:So when we give them words, they can ask the doctor early. You don't have to be 40. You can be 18 if this is the issue you're having. So ask early. And then, for doctors, pay attention. Like I know, doctors only get 10 minutes with their patients, but pay attention to what they're saying and instead of saying how do you want to do you want birth control, ask them do you ever want to have a child? Do you have plans to have a baby ever, instead of defaulting to what contraception do contraception do you want to use? Ask them a broader question, because you might get an answer that will help them down the line educating, empowering yourself.
Speaker 1:Make sure you get information self-advocacy you know what to ask when you go there, but also making sure you have a doctor that listens to you, that you can hear, just because so and so went there and they've been going there for all the means nothing. Means nothing. Find a doctor that's right for you, that will listen. We talked a few minutes ago and I'm going to on this for a second about doctors believing women of color when we say that we're in pain and things like that and sending home pressure cups, you know, with that package of diapers.
Speaker 1:On the way home that goodie bag so to speak, adding things in there that will help save a life.
Speaker 2:The last thing I would say is kind of with the idea of ask. One of the things that I have, an acronym that I share with many of my clients is just ACT, and this goes across the board for any area, but particularly for this conversation. The acronym is ACT and a is advocacy. Advocate for yourself, but also have someone that can advocate for you. I don't like people to go to the doctor by themselves. Have somebody there with you who's willing to advocate for you. Bring that friend who always has something to say. You know, I'm like girl, be quiet. No, she needs to be with you at the doctor, right? So advocate for yourself and have somebody advocate with you. The C is create safe spaces. Create safe spaces where you can be honest about what you're feeling and that people can help you navigate and then tell yourself the truth. Because what often happens with black women in particular, or women of color?
Speaker 2:we are so used to being resilient, we're so used to carrying heavy loads, we're so used to being the martyr we're swooping in with our cape that we don't even tell ourselves the truth about what we're feeling and what we are experiencing. So you cannot change what you don't acknowledge. You cannot change what you don't acknowledge. So as long as you continue, this is what I tell people. You are doing. What you saw grandmama do. Change what you don't acknowledge. So, as long as you continue, this is what I tell people. You are doing what you saw grandmama do and what you saw mama do. I'm from texas. We say ain't what you saw, your ain't doing, but your grandmama and your mama and your ain't are sitting on my couch because they're exhausted, worn out and yes and so I know you saw them being strong and they are.
Speaker 2:They're amazing. They had to be yes they are amazing and they are resilient, but they would tell you, sis, sit down and rest so tell yourself the truth, so advocate for yourself and have others advocate for you, create safe spaces and tell yourself the truth.
Speaker 3:Tell yourself a word I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. Well, my mom I used to go to the doctor with my mom and the doctor one day said um, uh, do you have questions? And my mom's answer was well, she's on her way, she's talking about me.
Speaker 2:The questions are on her way.
Speaker 1:The questions are on the way Before I got there, she told me that story, so definitely.
Speaker 3:I love that yes this documentary.
Speaker 1:It is powerful, it is life-changing, and share it with all the women and the men in your family, the men who will watch, but you, it is a must see. If you have a young you know teenager, a young, let them see this document. It's very educational. It's very, very educational, um, and you won't be sorry ladies. Thank you, guys, so much for joining us. Robin May life coach therapist.
Speaker 3:Chiquita.
Speaker 1:Lockley, producer, writer, director, director by default.
Speaker 3:Thank you, guys.
Speaker 1:Always remember to be kind to yourself and others.