Master My Garden Podcast
Master My Garden Podcast
-EP265 Cormac Downey President Of The National Tree Council Chats About National Tree Week & More
Step into the world of trees as we explore their immense benefits and the celebration of National Tree Week on this insightful episode. The conversation features Cormac Downey, President of the Tree Council of Ireland, shedding light on the integral role trees play in promoting biodiversity, combating climate change, and enhancing our quality of life.
From discussing the seemingly simple act of planting a tree, this episode unfolds the complexities of nurturing these vital assets for a sustainable future. You'll discover the importance of a proactive approach to tree care, specifically within the critical first few years after planting. Whether you're a seasoned gardener or looking to start your green journey, we equip you with essential knowledge on selecting the right trees, understanding their needs, and appreciating their value within your community.
The episode also tackles pressing challenges, such as ash dieback, and the need for biosecurity in forestry practices. With an eye on the broader environmental impact, we highlight the importance of celebrating and recognizing trees as more than just objects—they are vital players in our ecosystem.
As we gear up for National Tree Week, we encourage listeners to take part in events across the country, fostering a deeper appreciation for the green giants that provide shade, beauty, and ecosystem services. Join us as we inspire a movement towards tree awareness, and discover how you can make a difference in your community. Don't miss out—tune in, get involved, and nurture your connection with the trees around you!
To find out more about tree week visit The Tree Council Of Irelands website
If there is any topic you would like covered in future episodes, please let me know.
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Until next week
Happy gardening
John
how's it going, everybody, and welcome to episode 265 of master, my garden podcasts. Now, this week's episode, and actually one of the episodes coming up in the coming weeks, will have a sort of a similar theme. So here in ire, ireland, we have national tree week, which runs from Sunday, the 9th of March through to Sunday, the 16th of March, and every year, I suppose, that highlights the importance of trees, obviously to you know, from a biodiversity perspective, but also in terms of, you know, future climate change and and, and it also highlights everything that's good about trees, I suppose over that week and there's lots of different events going on across the country. That event is, as I say, national Tree Week. It's run by the Tree Council of Ireland and I'm delighted to be joined by the president of the Tree Council of Ireland, cormac Downie. Cormac is also the tree officer with Fing fingal county council. So there's a sort of a few avenues that we can go down here.
Speaker 1:As well as that, we we spoke to one another at a very at the glda conference last weekend, which obviously we mentioned on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and that event turned out to be really good. There was some fascinating stuff in that. We might delve into that a little bit. If not, I'll definitely be sort of covering it on a future episode. So things in it that we can all be thinking about. So, but to start chatting, initially about the tree council and national tree week cormac, you're very, very welcome to master my garden podcast thank you, john, thanks very much yeah, so lots going on.
Speaker 1:Uh, as I said, we bumped into one other at the event the other day, which was brilliant, and we might chat about that later on. Um, but the three council of ireland, uh, obviously a very important body. You're the current president, president of it, and I know that various people do different stints in the road, so you're there currently and you know it's it's an important, it's an important job, I guess, and the week coming up is a hugely important week for you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this is a really busy time of year for us, particularly leading up to Tree Week. Tree Week itself is sort of at that stage, has been organized and it kind of hopefully flows and works well. But yeah, I'm currently president. Tree Week it's been running. The tree council is set up in 1985. And I think the first tree week we had was 86. But yeah, tree Week it's really it's all about promoting trees. That's a very basic kind of objective Tree Week has. What we're trying to do is encourage people to get involved with tree planting. Actually, one of the important things I'd like to say along with that term, tree planting, tree planting and establishment and.
Speaker 2:I think that's, that's because we, I think, we, we, I like to think we've moved on from that, just tree planting, because tree planting is very, is it? It's a, you know, you can do it in 10, 10 minutes done, and that's really, uh, only the first part of it. We, we have to make sure you know trees establish and they're there for the long term.
Speaker 2:So that's what we're about Encouraging people to go out and visit woodlands, appreciate trees for what they are, the benefits they give us. And again that phrase, you know tree benefits. It gets thrown around a lot.
Speaker 2:But I think it really is what fuels everything we do. So it's really kind of innate need for people to be in and around kind of greenery, wildlife, that kind of thing, and it's as basic as having a just enjoying a walk in the woods. But yeah, Tree Week, we try and promote trees and what they do for us as much as we can.
Speaker 1:yeah and I suppose there's a few things there, obviously, um, just to go back to one of your very first points there the, the, the planting of the trees is the I suppose it's the one that the picture goes in the paper the, you know the politician or the business owner or whatever it is, and I think that is that is a really good thing, to point out that it's not just about that act of sticking it into the ground, it is about those first.
Speaker 1:You know, and listeners to the podcast will know, we talk a lot about bare root planting and we talk about the importance of those first two years. About the importance of those first two years, um, you know, because you're talking about trees going in with small root zones and needing, needing some nurturing for the very start. Because, um, if a, if a seed falls from a tree in a forest, the, the natural, the natural system is there to germinate that seed. But if you plant it in the middle of a park, it's a different environment and it's about nurturing that tree at that stage. So that's a really valid and important point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it plays along with that idea, as you just mentioned it there, the photo op, and it's great and that's really important that it's hugely massive part of it. But it is just the first part and that picture advertises it to people. The first part and that picture advertises it to people, but it kind of for me it kind of goes along these planting a certain amount of trees, these targets, numbers, you know, plant a million trees here and there, which is all well and good, but you have to be able to have a plan in place where those trees we plant are there in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years' time.
Speaker 2:So really concentrating on getting the right tree in the right place and getting it established, more so than just planting 100 trees here in this corner and walking away, which has happened in the past, and you know I mean 100 trees in the corner of a park or a field somewhere um does take a lot of looking after in the first two, three seasons. But if you invest in that time and it doesn't have to be a lot, an awful lot of time but it does it is essential. It happens just for the first two or three seasons and once that that root system is in place, uh, you know, they can look after themselves more or less at that stage, but it's just getting them over that first hurdle, um and just, and it's that, it's the unseen working, you know, there's no, there's no pictures taken of that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you know, uh, replanting or beating up or take getting grass away from the, the stead, all that kind of stuff you know. Uh, replanting or beating up or take getting grass away from the stand, all that kind of stuff, you know it's a there's initial initial couple years. Yeah but to be honest, that for me that's, that's the nicest bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really yeah yeah, that's the bit where you're you're ensuring that this tree that has got into the ground on on day one as a whip or even as a bigger tree, you're ensuring that it becomes the fullest of its potential, which is a carbon capturing wildlife haven. From an amenity perspective, it fulfills it and, for all the reasons, it fulfills its potential and those first two or three years, as, as you say, that's the important bit and that and that's actually the nice bit because you're ensuring that it does get a chance to yeah, yeah you're right.
Speaker 2:But you're right, you're right there and you're touching them. You're seeing, yeah, how well they did in the first year and all that, and you and you do. You see their progress. Uh, you see how well you're doing with them, um, and really that's that's, and that's sort of what tree council is about. It's just getting people to that stage, and once you, once you've gotten people to that stage, they can go on as well, you know do their thing.
Speaker 1:So the the council, you said was set up in 1985 or six. Was it 85 or?
Speaker 2:85, 85, yeah, so at the end end of 85, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah so at that time there was, you know, the original people that started it. There clearly must have been some reason at that stage. Obviously, we'd lost a lot of forestry in Ireland over the years, but I would imagine that in 1985, it probably wasn't, you know the worst was yet to come, let's say, in terms of deforesting areas, um, or am I? Am I right in saying that? And where would we be now? Like you know, 1985 to today is it's it's quite a while. So are we, did we see the worst at any stage, and are we progressing back upwards now, hopefully?
Speaker 2:well, it depends on how you measure it. I think, yeah, I mean you, you measure these things. Um, I mean, our tree cover is well documented has been ridiculously low, uh, you know, over the last uh hundred years. Uh, it has slowly crept up in the last uh, 10, 20 years, I think, isn't it um, which is good? Uh, I know a lot of that. People would say it would be conifer plantations, yeah, um, but you know that's, as I said, it depends on your metric um, but yeah, it has. It has improved, but it has improved from a very bad place.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, if you, if you, you compare it to a european country, we're still way off way off, yeah, and and I think you're right in saying that, in that, yeah, a lot of the plantation that we might be talking about now has been, you know, forestry areas is, yeah, single single variety conifer type species and, strangely, enough I was up the west of ireland a few weeks ago I mentioned it on the podcast a couple weeks ago and you just see endless, endless uh areas of those trees just flattened after that storm.
Speaker 1:There's, there's very little now. Obviously the storm did damage to, you know, your hardwood trees and your native trees and all of those things. But to see it, you know, when you have a single tree like that across such a big area, there's not much chance when something like that happens because there is no filtering and and so on yeah, yeah, look it's.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, I've, I've, I've, no, uh, beef with, with forestry. Forestry is, is is really a really important part of our country. It should be even bigger. That has its own problems at the moment, but you know, forestry is not a bad thing. Forestry is a good thing.
Speaker 2:I think what people and it's amazing people, I think just jump straight to the Sitka spruce and once people say that hackles, go up on one side and you know the lines are drawn straight away. But it's for me, it's nothing to do with the tree. If anything, it was possibly the way it's the system that's used to grow them. So, you know, change the system slightly. Or you know, continuous cover forestry, whatever, but you know, change the system slightly. Or you know, continuous cover forestry, whatever. But you know it's not the tree that. That six spruce is a fantastic tree for what it does. It's absolutely amazing. But I think this you know the system could be looked at in which it's managed or how it's grown. But you're right, I mean, if you you know having a single species, you have all your eggs in one basket, especially when it comes to pests and diseases. So that's where diversity is always encouraged in general. But again, forestry is slightly different because it's a crop so you know you have to it's not just
Speaker 2:you know, we'll all plant native trees and we all go home happy. It's that's because that's to. It's not just. You know, we'll all plant native trees and we'll all go home happy. It's that's because that's that it's not there. I mean we have, we have plantations, we have a forestry industry, for no matter how good or bad it is, but we have a forestry industry and that should be invested in. I think. And you know, pointed the right way, I think and pointed the right way. But I think it's the forestry as a timber production has its own place.
Speaker 2:But diversity in general is a good thing and again you could throw in the debate about native non-natives If you want. I think it's accepted that diversity is good, it's necessary, um, for all sorts of reasons, um, but again it comes back, I think, to whether the tree, uh, the right tree in the right place, it's simple for the right reason, and I think to that term. Right tree in the right place, again, is another thing that's thrown out, you know, left, right and center all the time, and it kind of gets diluted to the meaning of it gets, because it just goes in one ear, out the other. It's used so so often. But your right tree in the right place for the right reason.
Speaker 2:I think everything, how you approach a planting site has to, you know, has to be kind of directed by why are you planting, what is it you're planting, why are you planting it? And your species choice will come from that, and that has to fit in with your site, with your soil, all that. Then you start picking what could go in and you come up with a list of potentials. I think it's wrong just to say that list has to be native, because once you do that, that list gets really, really small, yeah, and your palette is very small. We don't have many native trees really, so that has to be taken into account. Now, if you have an objective for a site in regard to managing it or why you're planting, something that has to kind of inform your species choice. So there's lots of variables in this. I mean, you could make it very long-winded and very complicated, but just don't put the wrong tree in the right place, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's kind of a regular gardening theme as well. You know, it's famous one right plant, right place. Like it is, it makes perfect sense. The native, non-native, I suppose, always stirs up debate and, as you rightly said, it's not necessarily the right debate. So, yeah, we have officially 28, I think, native species of tree and clearly now there's there's way more than that in the country and you can't just rely on the 28 in. Certainly in modern times, maybe all those years ago, that was what was working for biodiversity and so on. But it has changed and it is changing even further. We heard that Saturday at the talk. It was very obvious that there's changes coming and have been happening over time and there's an adaptation required in the tree species on the basis of that yeah, no, the world has changed in the last 50 years.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's, as they call it, a global village. There is no. I mean, we have, you know, we've spores, you know, floating over from europe. Uh, we've, there's no borders anymore within europe and so there's free flow of, of goods and plants through that area. So look how big europe is from one side to the other, uh, which is, which is how we got, um, how we got ash die back in here. That was brought. Most of our pests and diseases, most pests and diseases are actually brought in. They did very, very rarely would spread naturally. Now, because everything speeded up. And that's you.
Speaker 2:I think you just made that point about adaptation. Um, it's just the rate of the speed of things happening. Nature can't keep up. Yeah, if, if things do as it should do in nature, things move slowly, trees can adapt, and that's and that's what they have, that's what nature does. But we just sped everything up to the nth degree and we're, we're picking up a container of trees over in poland, something, and dropping them over mayo, you know. So, yeah, or yeah, that has to that. But that's life, that's the way it is. Um, so I think we, you know. We definitely do need to be aware of that and have it as part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Biosecurity is hugely important and one of the saddest things that we see at the moment is ash dieback, and that has come from the transportation of trees. It probably has come from a lack of foresight as to the potential problems and and I think we've probably seen something along the same lines in the last few years where, you know, we had the, the acre scheme, which was a fantastic scheme in itself in that you could plant all these native trees, but at the time of it going, you know, going live, there wasn't the, the stock, they weren't there, they weren't there, so it was never possible to fill, fulfill the demand from Ireland. Hence there was a rewording of the, of the, you know the document, and you could bring in your, your white thorn and so on from other jurisdictions. And there's, there's the threat there with with fire blight, um, so like on.
Speaker 1:On the one hand and I think it's a fair comment we're saying native, non-native is a kind of a debate that's not necessarily live anymore. You know, we do need that diversity in trees, but we, we also do need to have, you know, a bit of foresight on on things that could cause us potential problems. And, as you say, if you pick up a trailer load of plants in poland and drop it somewhere. You need to know exactly where we're coming from. What potential problems are there and what potential problems could that bring to us? Obviously there's going to be, you know, if there's there is benefits as well and you have to weigh up the pros and the cons. But when it comes to something like ash dieback, it's, it must be, you know well it is.
Speaker 2:It's an extremely sad thing, but for somebody on the tree council that must be sad, worrying, and you know yeah I guess, well, look it's, it's, it's an, it's a tree off that list, that native tree list that you can plant anymore, or or you know, which is a small list.
Speaker 2:So the list is getting smaller. But look, I know the department have controlled, some good control set up and procedures and all that, but it's still. We're still the global village and movement will happen and it's just part of life. And I know I mean there's a list of potential threats just sitting there waiting to come in, you know.
Speaker 1:And where are we at with ash dieback? So the evidence is clear to see everywhere. Yeah, and here and there I reports of of some trees coming back, um, some trees not as susceptible as others, and I know there's work going on, uh, breeding programs and different things going on to try and sort of breed resistance or resistant strains. But yeah, and certainly even here on, like I live on a farm and there's certain areas they're just decimated within the existing hedgerows. These are not trees that were planted or bought in. They're there as long as as long as I know that you know, for years and years, and they're dying, but not everywhere. And so where is that at now it is? Is there actual research that shows there's resistant strains or is it a case that some are just slower to pick it up? Or where is that at now? Is there actual research that shows there's resistance strains or is it a case that some are just slower to pick it up? Or where is that conversation at now, or do you know?
Speaker 2:I think it's tolerance more than resistance, because I think every ash has the potential to get it. First of all and nearly every ash will It'll be exposed to it at some stage. They reckon at the moment it's roughly speaking 10% will show tolerance. Now that doesn't mean that the tree is left perfectly with no dieback at all. It will have dieback but it will have halted it at some stage. So it will have tie back but it will have halted at some stage. So it'll stop the ingress of it and it'll it'll start to reform a crown, hopefully in time. But the problem with that is and this again it's most of what we're talking about here today comes from the lack of a of a of a tree understanding. Uh, in this country we don't, we don't, we really we've lost whatever we had. That's long gone. Um when trees? Because, sorry, the reason I'm saying that is what's happening now. We want to see hedgerows being decimated.
Speaker 2:Okay so someone's going to come in. There's going to be a tree possibly showing signs of ash dieback, maybe not, but the very fact that it's an ash tree get them out. That's happened. It's happened in England a lot in certain councils where their approach was based on a resources thing what's the cheapest way to deal with this? So just go in, just take out any ash tree. That's a potential hazard. So any ash tree on the roadside, just take it out. Now they've looked back at that system and I think they've regretted it slightly, or a lot in some places, because there is that 10% within the population that has that genetic tolerance. They are so important and valuable for repopulating those hedgerows that you've lost populating those head rows that you've lost.
Speaker 2:But what's happening now is contractors are coming in with machines and just taking the whole that line of hedge out altogether on the basis or pretense of it's got ash dieback. Now, that's easy to say as well, but if you have a row of roadside trees, you have to manage them, uh, and you may be told that that's the cheapest way to do is just take them all out. No tree, no, no risk sort of thing, but with that you're losing.
Speaker 2:We're losing hedgerows all over the country, we're losing a lot of ash trees that haven't been affected at all yet. So we don't know what they're like Ash trees that have been affected, but only slightly. They still have that potential to show tolerance and be able to fight back, but they've been wiped out en masse and that's a real problem. But, as I say, this goes back to Ireland. We don't have a tree culture here, um, not like you know countries in europe where we we really don't right.
Speaker 1:So, in terms of, obviously there's, you know, there's the big picture, there's the you know government policy, there's agricultural policies and and and so on and and so forth, where? So, obviously, tree week is very important. When you, when you look at it against the backdrop of things like this, where can you know day-to-day gardeners listen to the podcast, people involved in you know community gardens, town councils, parks departments where can we get these wins? Or what are the actions we should be taking? Obviously, plant a tree is an action, but what steps would you be recommending people take?
Speaker 2:So, in a garden, looking for the right tree, yeah, look, it's exactly that and each situation is going to be different and again it will come from why are you planting a tree? I think that's as important as anything. Because you know, you want to know, you want to have a reason for planting it. First of all, it's no use just let's go out and plant a tree and stick a few here and, as I say, walk away, have a reason for doing it, do a little bit of research into it. You know, which I always find really interesting, actually, it's amazing what you can learn. You know, you have an idea of what tree you want there. Look it up, see will it suit, how big, what's its eventual size, what's its attributes? And with little steps like that, you're building up your knowledge.
Speaker 2:If you have a planting or a garden that does really well and a tree will do well if it's picked right and planted right, that in time will be seen by people around and slowly, slowly, I think, we look to build up that tree culture. Um, and it's just, it's based on an appreciation of of what trees do um and an understanding of, as I say, why you're, why you're picking that tree. What do we want here on this site? Um, do a bit of research, picking the right tree, and make sure that the tree is in good condition. And again, if you could look up the Tree Council website, there's lots of advice on this. But if you're looking at a plant, before you buy it, what to look for? Demand the best quality of stuff. Root systems are good. They're not pot-bound. The trees are in good condition. If you're buying something, you want it in the best condition it can be and that will give it its best chance of establishing.
Speaker 2:So a bit of knowledge about if you're looking at a tree in a pot, just knock the pot over quickly to have a look inside. What it's like. Are there, how long has that? Has that been in that pot? Um, are the roots starting to circle around inside? Just little things like that. Go pick, pick a good tree, um, suited to what you want. Uh. And if there's one piece of advice I give, I give people, is don't be very careful when you're digging your hole, that you have the whole depth correct. Uh, don't plant it too deep. Loads of people plant trees too deep and it's it's an absolute killer. At best they'll sit there for a couple of years and they might maybe come back eventually, but you lose six, seven years on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, without a doubt, that is one of the biggest mistakes that people make planting trees and shrubs, for that matter, planting them too deep. So, for anyone listening, if you're planting a potted tree, the level of the soil or the compost and the top of the pot that goes at the level of the ground, it's. It's not down a foot or down even six inches, it's, it's level, and you're looking for the roots to grow outwards from there and downwards from there, and that's yeah, you don't need to go down deep when you're planting them.
Speaker 1:No, no, interesting, interesting point you made that we don't need to go down deep when you're planting them. No, no Interesting point you made that we don't have a tree culture. Here I think possibly there's a lack of I was going to say there's a lack of appreciation, but I don't think that's the right word I think there's a lack of knowledge of what trees actually can and do, do and and and and do over time. Um, so maybe, like there's the obvious one that you know that, as I say, the photo op or the, or the advertising slogan, we're planting a million trees and we're locking in x amount of tons of carbon, and that is, you know, somewhat true, but there, but it's, it's a small part of the picture in the overall sense. So maybe let's just talk about some of the benefits of trees, you know, in a garden, in a park, in a forest, you know, from all all, from human health perspective, from the landscape perspective, from biodiversity, from from all angles.
Speaker 2:Just let's just talk about all the good things that trees do yeah, well, I suppose that is it the fancy term that is, ecosystem services. Um, what they, what they give us, um it it's and what they. They give us more than we, than an individual, will know, because they they. When someone walks up to the tree, they see different things. Right, you know? Um, first of all is the aesthetic there is a, there's a lump of green there, basically all right, um, the most advanced solar panel you'll ever come across. Um oxygen, I mean you can't get as basic as oxygen, you know uh, which I think is important, we all need it, and you drill it down to its base level. I mean, that's why the planet is the way it is, that is why we are here. Oxygen, that's why we are here in the form we are in at the moment, but it's yeah, so that's a very basic uh provision. Um carbon dioxide, of course, taken out the air. Um, you've got uh I mentioned that uh, that biofilly hypothesis, where that feel good feeling you get when you walk, walk in in around trees or greenery, um, you look at trees in urban areas, trees in towns, shade, um huge, it's hugely important. It was Hendrix talk there, he, he, he kind of touched on it and it's maybe more european thing, but it's getting more important here.
Speaker 2:During the summer. You get, we get, those spells of really hot weather. You know basic. Uh you go to spain, uh, we're going to a car park, uh, you won't be able to be no spaces left under a tree because that's where everyone goes. So the shading is absolutely huge in some places and that flood water attenuation slows down rain and that's another part of our weather we're going to be, we are getting and we're going to get in the future is those heavier extremes. Um, it's sort of, in a way, that's really hard to to to manage for the future, because you've got, you've got a weather where you're going to get, uh, extremes, extreme flooding and then extreme drought, yeah, uh, so, and people are supposed to pick a tree that can grow in extreme flooding and extreme drought, which is hard, but they do.
Speaker 2:If you look at it, a very simple way of seeing that actually is after a rain shower. If you look under a tree, if it hasn't rained too much, you'll see the road. You know the road is wet, except under the tree. Yeah, the tree is dry. Where, where has all that rain gone? The, the, the leaf area has taken it up the, the air, the, the bark, everything is as just held, held on to that for a little bit longer than it would normally do. And I think in in built up areas where you got that hard surface, where there's no um drainage at all, it's just this big splash. Rain comes, nor for, nor it can't go anywhere because all the concrete hard surface and that's rushed into drains, into rivers and that's you get your flooding events. So trees do slow that down.
Speaker 2:Um health. There's been. There's been a lot of research have gone into the to kind of measure the benefits of health. Uh people who've just undergone operations, their recovery time has improved by X amount, but if they have a view of a tree out their hospital window, there's a lot of research done on that. I think that came from the UK NHS kind of research. So the facts are there, the figures are there. It does improve uh people's recovery um. It lowers all sorts of uh you know, young people with adhd. It helps um it calms people down, it produces the chemicals in our body, relaxes people. Then you can say a treed area in an urban space around houses will increase property values. Again, research has gone into that and I've seen anything between 8% to 15% on a property due to a treed location.
Speaker 1:The health is a massive one. It's. It's one that again, in ireland we don't necessarily have the the, the in-house research, but, as you rightly said, the nhs have done, have done research on this. I have seen the overall top line data on that. But and it's fascinating, but I've I read something last year. It was quite an in-depth article about forest bathing, which is becoming popular now and you know when you mention forest bathing a lot of people will throw their eyes up to heaven and you know tree huggers, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:But this was a but this was a scientific paper that was produced on the benefits of it, with actual doctors and actual hospital equipment and all this sort of thing. So it was a proper research. It wasn't just people saying, well, I went there for the day and I felt a little bit better after it. It wasn't like that. And it was the markers in so many different levels the obvious ones, stress levels reduced, bloody blah but that had in turn effects on the blood vessels and how they were open or closed and inflammation reduced dramatically in certain types of patients, dramatically reduced.
Speaker 1:And, as I say, this was it was a very in-depth. So even in your own locality, those are hugely beneficial and I think you know we've lost a lot of those kind of or some of those areas. Some of them are coming back, but where they are they're an amenity obviously to look to look at. But there's real health benefits there by being in those spaces. And yeah, as I can't remember that, you know the who wrote that paper, but it was, it was fairly heavy stuff and it was. Yeah, it was unbelievable the difference from just being in the trees, touching the trees, grounding with the trees and seriously impressive changes in people's biochemistry, basically from being there yeah, no it's.
Speaker 2:I mean that's huge. Now I know I think initially when the nhs started kind of looking into this, they were trying to save money and looking at the population of a country, you know, if you bring down um, recovery times, free up beds, all that kind of that translates into real money and a huge, massive effect on the on the economy. Absolutely massive um for something that people don't even consider or, if they do, just take for granted, I think a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:Um, so it is something that's you know now, as you say, well backed up by by evidence. Um, that should add to our appreciation of what what trees do.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that's, I suppose that is the the aim of tree week, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's to give people an appreciation of trees, and yes, I suppose yeah, yeah, get them out, go for, you know, organize it if you're a lot of school kids and I think it's really important to get. That's quite easy to get young people because they just do it naturally. If you throw them into a load of trees, that you'll let them off, you'll see them. They just it's something clicks. You know, we've all done it. You know, climb around and look around the roots and mess about and jump around and it's again, I think that's innate in what we, how we are and what we do. But yeah, it's really just to get people. Just get people out. Look at what we have.
Speaker 2:Go for a walk in your local community a woodland somewhere or tree tree, whatever it is. Just take a second or two, just have a look at them. You come across a mature tree. It doesn't matter what it is, anything at all if you just stand under it for a while and look up and see what's going on. Look at the wildlife that's evolved, that it supports. Look at the wildlife that's evolved, that it supports. The habitat it creates little wounds, nooks and crannies. The habitat during the day and at night. It's massive. What it supports, absolutely massive.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. Just before we move off that and start to talk about some of the events that are coming up, I suppose we mentioned the native, non-native debate and how that's not necessarily little bit better, but from memory it's like a hundred and there's like one hundred and thirty. Insects, animals, are Create. The oak tree creates a home for one hundred and thirty. Thirty something life forms, you know whether that's fungi on the roots or bugs on the leaves, you know whatever it is, and it's a phenomenal amount of support. And so in that scenario you're looking at an oak tree for what it can do over time supporting biodiversity, as opposed to maybe another tree that doesn't have anything like that. So it's not a native, non-native debate, it's what this tree can do for the area that you're going to put it into.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of the point, yeah yeah, yeah, and it's see that, and you may have an objective for while you're planting that tree, but you're going to get all these kind of subsidiary benefits along with them. Um, so it's really, it's a win-win, you know. But you know, it just comes back to, I think, people being just a little bit more informed in why they're planting that tree and just plant it properly, look after it and enjoy it really. And Tree Week is just about that enjoying trees, getting people out, appreciating what trees are about. You know, maybe put on an event in your locality or join in an event.
Speaker 2:And if you, you know we have for Tree Week, we have a dedicated website for Tree Week this year, if you go to our website, it'll, you know, throw you straight onto it and on it there'll be a list of events there, county by county, so you can look in, see what's in your area and see if you're able to join in. Maybe you can't, please do. Or indeed, if you want to create your own events or put on your own events, you can add it in to the list of events on the website. You can add it in to the list of events on the website, which I would ask anyone who is planning events to add it in, because it'll give us an idea of what's going on around the country. And again, that's just very small, local, community stuff. Really, it doesn't have to be massive. It could be a walk, a talk, a planting, anything at all.
Speaker 1:I was having a look through the website before we started talking and there's a wide range of events. So, as you said, it's county by county and I'll put the link in the show notes. Anyway. There's county by county of what's on. Not every county is on there but there's quite a few there and I know in Dublin, for example, example, there seems to be a lot of events on. There's the big one in the national botanic gardens with some good guest speakers. We might talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 1:But funny, as I went down the list then, um, I was looking local to me, so I'm in county leash. There wasn't anything for county leash yet, but there was something for carlo and altamont gardens and like, if you want to see trees and appreciate trees, that's a seriously good place. Um, there's some, um and again, native and non-native there, but beautiful specimens of trees and you'll see you're fully mature a lot of variety and there'll be you know that that's definitely a great one. But then on the flip side of that, I saw, just by coincidence, there was a tree planting in Dunshacklin in County Mead, so it's a tree planting on the green area and it's in a housing estate, ard Lee, and I happen to recognise it because I have relations that live in that estate.
Speaker 1:And I was wondering why it was there. But when I read down it was that they were doing a tree planting there, a tree planting event there, brilliant, that's exactly that.
Speaker 2:It's from just the very smallest single tree planting, whatever all the way up. And look, lots of counties haven't anything on the list of events of yet. But that's usually because and this happens every year not not everyone buts their uploads, their events onto that, so there will be stuff happening. So that's why whoever's listening to this, uh, before three week, if they are planning an event, please do, just, you know, add it to the list, list of events on the website.
Speaker 1:so yeah, and how does someone do that?
Speaker 2:it's go to. It's very simple just go in and add as your event.
Speaker 1:It's kind of self-explanatory once okay, brilliant, yeah, so you can load it up yourself, and yeah yeah, yeah, exactly yeah excellent, yeah excellent. I know in your, in your, in your day job, your your tree officer with fingal county council and, and you know a lot of what you'll be doing is choosing trees, working with trees, deciding on trees is choosing trees, working with trees, deciding on trees, planning for the future with trees.
Speaker 1:I guess and you know, we heard last Saturday at the GLDA conference how important trees are, but also how important they're going to be going forward.
Speaker 2:Absolutely how important they're going to be going forward, absolutely, and it's it's that that predicting what the weather is going to be like or what to our environment is going to be like in 30, 40, 50 years time. I think that's, that's the golden ticket. But how you do that, I really don't know exactly. We're going to get a generic, as I said, you know extremes of weather more.
Speaker 1:It's going to be like I heard, it's going to be colder, it's going to be hotter, it's going to be wetter, it's going to be drier so I don't know what you do with that so it's going to be a combination of all those things, but for for shorter windows, I guess, which is kind of what we're seeing. You know, if you look back over the last five years, we've had these intense droughts for varying lengths of time, from four weeks up to up to nine, 10 weeks at one stage. But we're also getting these every year seems to be these really heavy, you know, doubt rainfall events essentially, yeah, and this is.
Speaker 2:This is what's putting trees under huge stress and pressure. And trees, um, they, they can. They can tolerate that for for a couple of seasons, but if they start getting hit, you know with, the roots are in water for a couple of months of the year and then they're drought, they have no water for another couple of months of the year. That that will catch up on them and any tree, especially if it's not in good condition, it's going to succumb, it's going to it's, it's at least not going to do what it's supposed to do to the best that it can do.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's it just one of the other things I I, if I'm talking to anyone about trees, what I encourage them to understand is roots. Roots are everything and it's unfortunate because people can't see the roots so they don't think they're there. It's out of sight, out of mind. But if the roots, the rooting environment, is kept in good condition, you give the tree its best chance, uh to to survive. And with all these extreme weather events, the tree has to be in optimum condition really to get through these. Because if it's, if it's any way stressed, uh or unhealthy, you know, throw a few seasons of those extremes in on it and you will, you'll lose them yeah, so, and something that I recommend.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if it's something that you talk about, but at tree planting I always add mycorrhizal fungi, um, to the root zone. Um, like that's naturally occurring in forests again, I've spoke about on the podcast quite a lot. Yeah, it, it's naturally occurring in, but if you're planting a tree on its own, it's not necessarily going to pick up that and it increases the root zone by a massive 300% and that's proven. And that's something that you can do to sort of safeguard, or it's almost like an insurance policy that a tree is going to get going and get going properly. So that's a good thing to do. Other than that, in terms of roots, make sure that you're putting them somewhere, again, that's suitable for them. So if it's a tree that likes you know, likes free draining soil, then don't stick it in a boggy spot of it, if it, you know, or vice versa. So, yeah, again, you're falling back to what you said at the start, carmoc, that it has to be the right tree in the right place for the right reason.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I think that's that's yeah, and it everything actually does come back to that. Really, yeah, but again, a bit of knowledge, uh, like, as you said, not to stick a tree like free draining into it into a big mucky site. I mean, that that's bait. You know, that can easily be found out by just reading a paragraph somewhere. Yeah, looking when you're looking up your tree. So it by just reading a paragraph somewhere. Yeah, looking when you're looking up your tree. So it's just about informing yourself. It's not. You don't have to go in depth and study things. It's very basic. It's it that information is in every tree book. There is that information would be there. Um, so it's, it's easily. You know it's easy. It's easy to educate yourself that way if, if you don't know it already, it's not, and it's not a big thing.
Speaker 2:You know, it's easy. It's easy to educate yourself that way, if, if you don't know it already, it's not, and it's not a big thing, you know, um, but it's really important to get it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. Um, it's been really interesting chat. I know all the events, so all the events are coming up. Um, I'll put the the link, the link for yeah in the show notes. Um, the website itself is treeweekie, I think, isn't it? Yes, and your own website, the Tree Council of Ireland's website, is there as well. You know people want to get information about the charity.
Speaker 2:There's loads of information there and that link to the treeweekie website is on our Tree Council website and there is on the 9th, on the opening, we have that panel discussion in the botanic gardens um trees for a changing future. We have, uh, amon ryan is going to be there. Uh, we have keith lampkin, who is from the met office, who's who's a really important part of that discussion actually, because he's going to give us a better picture of what might be, what's going to be, which is kind of really important. And, of course, we have Eanna Eanna there. Eanna's done huge work for the Tree Council over the last number of years and continues to do so. So thanks to Eanna for that. But that panel discussion, yeah, it continues to do so. So, uh, thanks to aina for that. But that panel discussion, yeah, it's uh, it'll be on eventbrite. If and if anyone can join, please do come and join in.
Speaker 1:Uh, it'll be an interesting discussion yeah, for sure, and and then you'll see across the country. Then there's there's loads of other events, and if you're aware of any events and they're not up on the website, and just please do yeah, get them because yeah, it'll put them in front of more people and so on.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, it's a fantastic, it's a fantastic opportunity to raise awareness of of how beneficial trees can be. Um, and as karmic says, I guess you know, we we've we kind of have lost sight of that in some cases not everyone, but in some cases we've lost sight of that and we we kind of look at them as objects that are just there but they're not doing much.
Speaker 2:But, you know, the evidence is there that they're hugely important to us yeah, I think the problem is when a lot of people look at trees, they see danger. You know there's a, there's a fear factor there, um, and that that just comes from just a bit of understanding. Really, all trees, if they're within a target, need to be managed to some degree, you know. So it's again that's just education being aware of what trees can do, how trees grow, basic stuff like that, um, yeah, but it and I know after the storm event we just had plenty of trees have have come down, um, but that was hugely extreme um, yeah, and if you look at the trees, that didn't fall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know so.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, the trees came through that storm yeah for sure it's funny.
Speaker 1:It's funny you say that and I was going to bring it up earlier on, but I didn't you when you were saying that there was the. You know the approach in the uk of just taking out all ash along. You know certain straits, um, and it was. You know there was probably an education piece needed there, that there was 10 of these were good and they should have been left. And now they're sort of regretting this.
Speaker 1:But strangely enough that that storm has only been a couple of weeks ago here in ireland and recently a crew came down our road and they had been given instructions to cut anything within x amount of meters of transformers. And when my house was, when my house was being built, there was a transformer put actually into my garden. It wasn't actually supposed to be, but when I came home from work one day it was in my garden, which, again, I have no big problem with. The power has to come from somewhere, no big problem with, but anyway, I have um betula jacomonti, beautiful trees. They're mature, they're not going to get any bigger and they're they fell within this meterage that this guy had told me they were outside and his instruction was to cut them down by half.
Speaker 1:Now, I wasn't, I wasn't here and he said he said he said his instruction was to cut everything within five meters, or whatever. It was six meters, eight meters, I forget what the figure was, but yeah, to cut everything within five meters. And I said absolutely no way are you cutting those trees when I'm not there? Because it's it's, it's completely down to a knowledge thing, because those trees are fully, fully mature, they're not getting any bigger, they're not growing any closer to the transformer and they never will. When I planted them I knew the transformer was there and I knew they would never touch it, not in there, ever. But this, this guy I'm not blaming him, he was giving instructions, but he was just coming. He was coming out to follow these instructions blanket anything within x amount of meters, chop them down. And thank. Thankfully he backed down because I would have been very upset if I had to come home to a tree.
Speaker 2:This is what's happening, and it all comes from a lack of knowledge.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's that knee-jerk reaction, risk-averse reaction that we have in this country. Again, if you are knowledgeable, you manage your tree stock, you will take care of that end of things. But to come in and just wipe stuff out because it might fall, I mean, that's, that's what I'm saying. We're as far away from a tree culture as anything with that kind of carry on. It's because we're we started off talking about how low our tree kind of coverage is in this country and all we're doing is is dropping, getting rid of trees, uh, as quick as we can, um, just through just a little bit of lack of knowledge, to be honest yeah, like lack of knowledge and a little bit of fear off the back of a storm that you know that hurt.
Speaker 1:It was damage caused, but I, I, get, I get that oh yeah but it's, it's.
Speaker 2:You can't then just say right, any, any, any tree near a house which is fell it and it makes no sense. No, absolutely no sense yeah, people react to it that management. It has to be um, evidence-based sort of management. When you do so, whoever's looking at it knows what to look at and if, if tree work needs to be done, to definitely get it done. But most of this tree work does not need to be done yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:so three week coming up, um, I'm going to try and keep that out of my garden anyway, but aside from that, it's a hugely important week. It's a hugely important week to talk about the benefits of trees, to highlight the importance of trees, not just now but for the future. And, yeah, definitely look up any of the events. There's loads of them. They're in the various counties Link will be in the show notes or visit the the tree council website or three week website.
Speaker 2:yeah, everything's everything's on our, on our website yeah, it's been a really interesting chat.
Speaker 1:Some, you know it's obvious, it's obvious that there's a lot of challenges, but I think there's also some, you know, some real positives. And I think one of the biggest positives we can, we can take from tree week, from conversations like these, is that the benefits of trees are just wide ranging and they're hugely important and, you know, as a society we need to start recognizing that and, I suppose, appreciating them for for what they are, you know. So karmic has been really interesting chat and thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, thanks for thanks for listening to me so that's been this week's episode.
Speaker 1:A huge thanks to karm for coming on. Some really interesting stuff there. Some worrying things when you look at it. You know this this lack of knowledge around around trees and and what they can do for us. But on on the flip side, then you have great events like tree week, and you know they. I'll come back on it again. But last weekend's glda conference to you know, to hear the detail that particularly henrik went into in relation to how trees can be so beneficial in urban environments in terms of, you know, it may or may not be a thing for us in the future, but in terms of cooling areas, in terms of shading, in terms of slowing down the water, which is definitely something that's a huge factor in Ireland, and all of those things. You know trees have a massive benefit and they are starting to become talked about more and that's, you know, that's the aim of three weeks. So it was really really interesting chat and that's been this week's episode. Thanks for listening and until the next time, happy gardening, thank you.