Master My Garden Podcast
Master My Garden Podcast
-EP286 Creating A Wildlife Pond & Making Space For Nature With “Pond Girl Ashley”
Dive deep into the fascinating world of wildlife ponds with expert Ashley Dowling, who reveals that creating a thriving aquatic ecosystem involves far more than simply digging a hole and filling it with water. This episode uncovers the secrets to designing pond environments that genuinely support biodiversity through thoughtful construction and planting.
Ashley shares her expertise on creating multi-layered pond structures that provide diverse habitats for different creatures. From deep areas that maintain stable temperatures to carefully crafted marginal zones that allow safe access for frogs and other wildlife, every aspect of the design plays a crucial ecological role. The conversation explores how different materials—stones, logs, and various substrates—create microhabitats that support a wealth of specialized insects and amphibians.
The plant selection discussion is equally illuminating, highlighting native species like marsh marigold, water dock, and yellow flag iris that form the backbone of a healthy pond ecosystem. Ashley explains how these plants should be arranged to mimic natural patterns rather than conventional block planting, enabling them to form symbiotic relationships that enhance biodiversity.
Beyond the pond itself, this episode examines how complementary habitats like beetle banks, stone piles, and simple DIY features can transform your entire garden into a wildlife haven. Ashley also demystifies pond maintenance, advocating for working with natural processes rather than fighting them with chemicals, and touches on sustainable urban drainage systems (SUDS) that can be incorporated into home gardens.
Whether you have space for a barrel pond or are planning something more ambitious, this conversation will inspire you to think like a wildlife gardener and create connected ecosystems that welcome creatures of all kinds. Subscribe now to hear more garden wisdom that balances beauty with biodiversity.
You Can Contact Ashley through instagram see here :
https://www.instagram.com/pond_girl_ashley?igsh=MTh6b2M1OXI0ejJ6NQ==
Or by email:
Ashleyjd_99@yahoo.com
If there is any topic you would like covered in future episodes, please let me know.
Email: info@mastermygarden.com
Master My Garden Courses:
https://mastermygarden.com/courses/
Check out Master My Garden on the following channels
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mastermygarden/
Instagram @Mastermygarden https://www.instagram.com/mastermygarden/
Until next week
Happy gardening
John
how's it going, everybody, and welcome to episode 286 of master, my garden podcast. Now, this week's episode, we're going deeper into a topic that we have covered in the past, and it's the creation and maintenance of a wildlife pond. So we have covered this before. As I mentioned a few weeks ago with Brian and Gilly from Wildacres. We spoke about it then. We've spoke about it previously in the creation of a garden pond, but this week I have Ashley Dowling, who's an expert in ponds.
Speaker 1:She has a business all around the creation of wildlife ponds and ponds in general and anything really to do with water in your garden. She has a business all around the creation of wildlife ponds and ponds in general and anything really to do with water in your garden. She's also an expert at creating habitats for the likes of hedgehogs and so on in your garden and, yeah, she maintains and creates from scratch. So we're going to look at the creation of a wildlife pond, but also how you don't just dig a hole in the ground, fill it with water and call that a wildlife pond. That there is the sort of connection to your garden that you need to do in order to ensure that it does what it's supposed to do there. So we're going to go deep dive on this today. So, ashley, you're very, very welcome to Master my Garden podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me delighted to be here to chat about my favorite topic of all time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've been speaking off air, so it's definitely your favorite topic. So, um, I suppose, as I say, we've covered this a little bit in the past and but not gone into it in a deep way, and I think, as we were chatting off air, it's it's clear that wildlife ponds we'll talk about their benefits in a minute and they're hugely beneficial within the garden and ponds in general um, but, as you said, it's about connecting them to, I suppose connecting them to the garden as, as opposed to just dropping them there and hoping that something finds it. So, I suppose, firstly, how did you get into ponds or where has this?
Speaker 2:uh well, that's a yeah, that's a long story.
Speaker 2:So I actually studied agricultural science because I wanted to be a farmer I still do but I was disillusioned by what, as advisors, you would have to tell farmers to do with the whole chemical thing.
Speaker 2:So I had dug my first pond, I think when I was 13, and continued to do so, and then I thought I'd go into horticulture and I kind of did branch into horticulture and landscaping and then I just loved ponds so much that I started doing maintenance for garden ponds for the lovely little old ladies around my area and it just went from there and it has only really become very popular, I'd say, in the last five years. So it's super nice for me now to not have to try to encourage people to put in a pond or to add a bee garden or to take out all the weeds. Like, people are more embracing of things being natural, which is amazing. People are more embracing of things being natural, which is amazing. So and then people are also kind of less squeamish and more interested in the creepy crawlies and stuff like that. So, yeah, it just went from there naturally. And I also kind of have a big liking for stonework and I'm working with natural materials, usually granite.
Speaker 2:And so I wouldn't really be into the very hard uh, clean lines. I have done it occasionally. But, um, yeah, and, and I suppose sound in the garden and trying as as hard as possible, no matter how small the site is, to put in as many different types of habitats in a small area so that you attract as much diversity as possible.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I just, I love it, yeah, and so, yes, that's like there's definitely, as we said, there's going to be a lot of things we we will end up talking about here, because you've mentioned habitats there and the creation of habitats, and you know natural products and I suppose the more we move away from those natural products you know natural woods, natural stones, stone walls and we move towards. You know, the latest phase is the is the porcelain tile, the outdoor porcelain tile and trends yeah, trends, yeah.
Speaker 1:the more we move towards them, the less habitat there is, habitat space there is left for various creatures within the gardens, and so a wildlife pond is a brilliant thing to add in, I suppose, so long as you're going to get the establishment right and then the ongoing maintenance right. So let's, let's go right back to the start on this one and, as I say, we've covered creating of a pond before I've covered, you know, the measuring of the liner, the types of liner and all that type of thing. But let's say we have our hole dug in the ground, we're creating a wildlife pond here and we have our liner gone in. Let's start from scratch here, maybe even talk about the excavation piece where we're taking out layers, and I know you have some thoughts on that around the maintenance, ongoing maintenance and so on.
Speaker 2:so yeah, so I find.
Speaker 2:So engineering it out in your head and where it's to be is really important.
Speaker 2:So, generally, sun is important for everything and sort of no trees locally, and I always kind of marry a pond into a flower bed so that if there is a creature that wants to get there, like frogs, that they're not going to be predated by something from the sky, like magpies or hedgehogs, can go and drink peacefully and all those things. So the situation of the pond is really important and once you've decided where it's going, what I generally do is I dig in layers and I have my layers depending on the plants that I want to grow. So that's a personal choice. But obviously, with all gardening, the more diversity would be, except the gradient on the walls is a bit bigger and I also make the pond. So pretend you have a pond that's sort of two meters long. Add extra that I measure beyond where the water edge will be, because then you don't think the thing that I really hate is being having the liner visible so if you manage to bed in the surround of your liner into lovely stone.
Speaker 2:What happens and you bridge the soil from the water with the stone is you get a little kind of slushy, marshy area behind the stone, which you can then fill with other plants and really what you're trying to do is make as many habitats as possible, because in the wild, even though, yes, some of them would be kind of a gently sloping dish, that's not practical going forward. So you have to think five years ahead, um, when you might have to get in there in waders and clean it out. So the the natural process of the pond would be that everything degrades and holds to the bottom, creates this lovely sludge which usually stays settled unless you have fish, and I wouldn't recommend especially having koi or any kind of fishery in a pond, because they disrupt the balance and they eat the insects and they churn up the nutrients and they'll always be fighting algae and dirty water so they create too much nutrients as well, don't they pardon?
Speaker 1:they like the likes of koi. They create too much waste in the pond as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's an uphill battle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and that drives up the nutrients, which leads to more algae and an imbalance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and they have their mouth is on the bottom of their head with the barbs, so they're designed to shuffle around at the bottom and keep the nutrients kind of liberated into the water, which is exactly what you don't want. Um, so yeah, the structure and also safety. So if you dig a pond, that's like a dish, like this, it's really unsafe because you'll end up sliding into the middle of it and even thinking forward, I don't know if you've ever seen reservoirs that have been built with really steep sides and they get a puncture. What ends up happening is that everything in the middle, all the wildlife, falls in and it dies. So I'm even thinking that far ahead that if something happens in the future, all the wildlife falls in and it dies.
Speaker 2:And so I'm even thinking that far ahead that if something happens in the future, I'm not going to be responsible for stuff dying. So I want to have all of my angles between the layers and that that something could escape if it wants to, or that there's easy access in and out. And then of adding logs is important because our species of decomposing kind of log or wood insects is really in decline, especially the aquatic beetles. So adding a log as a bridge, even for just the teeny, tiny creepy crawlies, like it doesn't have to be a tree is important, and the small little froglets can get in and out like that, and it's adding a different chemistry to the water too.
Speaker 1:Like decomposition isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's a natural process and this, these little logs now you're talking about actually in the water or in the water? Okay?
Speaker 2:yeah, so so dipping in and out, so quite a lot of the time I'd leave a gap where I usually put stones around the margin, like heavy natural granite stones, and then I might have a log that will kind of fit in between one and be going into the water so that, um, you know, algae form on all of these surfaces and if you look really closely you'll see tadpoles and even the water kind of woodlice guy. They're all doing jobs and in nature there would be tree boughs and things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So just trying to, if you imagine. I always think that if you're trying to create something, imagine that you're one of the creatures in the pond or all of them, and try to recreate the home that they would like to have. That's how I do it. I'm in the mind of a tadpole going OK, what would my ideal home be?
Speaker 1:yeah, so you're. So you're looking for these layers, and, and these layers and these changes of texture with, with the, with the shallow area, the stone out into the very soft marshy clay, yes, and. And these are all habitats for, I guess, different creatures, but also suitable areas for different plants.
Speaker 2:Yes, you would have temperatures as well okay, different temperatures during the seasons, yeah, and then a lot of the time what I do is, even with the big grant, I'll add in different sizes of rocks all the way down to sand, because there's lots of the caddisflies. They all use different things to make their homes again and again it's it's changing the water chemistry depending on what the substrate is so all of, and there's a lot of stuff that we don't know as well, remember. So keeping things simple sometimes is easier, but the more complexity and the addition of, as you said, the textures and the plants that you add, the more likely there's something there that we don't even know about that you're helping. So just mimicking a habitat in nature and obviously using as much as possible native plants both the side and in the water, and having sort of a herbaceous border is totally fine, but sticking the odd, what we would deem weed into it and allow it to grow yeah yeah, so, yeah, so as many as possible.
Speaker 2:And then another thing with the really small ponds, um, you might find that that'll heat up quite quickly and be a totally different type of habitat. So if you want um it to be more uniform, you might have to put in a deeper area to keep the temperature consistent and get those nice convection currents going in the water so that it maintains sort of um a stable-ish temperature, rather than, if it's really shallow, it's fine, it's great for birds and um a lot of sort of transient insects that are populating it in the summer months, but it mightn't be good for somebody else.
Speaker 1:So if you'd wanted both, say, you might create quite a big dish area, marginal area and then a deep area, like anything is possible in nature yeah, and obviously like nature, if you have, for example, you have a little oak barrel that you want to, if you're in a really small garden and you want to create a little wildlife pond in that, as, as we've seen on gardeners world several times, they've created these little little ponds and so on. But what we're saying here now is that that'll be a totally different habitat habitat to what you will have if you create a larger one with these different layers, with a stable temperature and so on.
Speaker 2:So just an overwintering possibility, but the barrel is great as well. The only thing I'd ever say about barrels or any of them just given in and out and into and out of, because what I see actually a lot in the countryside are troughs with drowned bumblebees in them. I think a lot of creatures if you had a garden and bumblebees in them. I think a lot of creatures if you had a garden and there was no water for miles around, which is quite possible and you have a barrel. A lot of the time you're getting you're visiting insects just to drink and if they fall in they will drown. So always have some sort of um, a textural thing doesn't have to be a log, it could be a bit of fabric that's going in so that they have purchased to be able to climb out should they fall in okay, yeah yeah, so something like a little, a little ladder effectively yeah, a little ramp yeah yeah, yeah yeah
Speaker 1:and so let's say we're going up to a bigger size. Now we're. We know we can create a wildlife pond in a small, in a small barrel or such um, but it's going to be a limited, a limited range of you know, of creatures that are going to come in there just because of the of the nature of it. So let's say we're creating the perfect wildlife pond in a garden, yeah, and what would the minimum size that we would start with?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think on average two or three meters long is. Is is fine to attract. I mean obviously the bigger sort of, not not the bigger the better. But yeah, two, three meters would be if you had a small garden like that's. That's quite adequate.
Speaker 1:That's quite big, in fact yeah um and achievable yeah, so at three meters, then let's say we've three meters and it's, you know, similarish width or whatever, and we've, we've created our, our layers and our zones. And I saw on on your instagram you were creating a garden in in bloom, I think was for fingal, was it?
Speaker 2:oh, I grew the plants I didn't make the garden, you grew the plants yeah, and that was a suds garden, so that's another really important topic actually, that now the county councils are using um the suds, so the basically the using of water from suburbia and urban areas to recycle into the land rather than it going into storm water yeah, that's another.
Speaker 1:That's another area. We'll chat about that in a minute. Actually beforehand I hadn't thought of that, but I was at a brilliant conference in the springtime there and it was all about suds. So we might, we might come back on that one in a second so yeah, it's brilliant and there's some brilliant concepts there.
Speaker 1:Might. We might come back on that one in a second. So, yeah, it's brilliant and there's some brilliant concepts there, but we'll come back to that one in a second. So, on the, on the, on the plants then, so you grew, you grew them.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize, yeah, so I'm growing my plants for my customers and I'm diversifying and trying to get as many species as possible. Um, even if they're tiny, little, minuscule little guys, I think they're all important. As we know, usually there is an insect or some sort of a creature involved specifically with a plant and a lot of the time we just don't know. So, for instance, I use the water dock, which you pretty much never see. I've never seen it in the wild. I'm starting to put that into ponds Now. It does just look like a dock leaf, a giant dock leaf. I think it's gorgeous.
Speaker 2:But we have an extinct insect called the large copper, which is a gorgeous butterfly. It's also extinct in the UK, but basically because we've drained our lands and we've ruined the habitat that these giant docks grow in. And it's not that they can't grow the docks, they can, but there's something so complex going on there that nobody knows why the reintroductions didn't work. So I'm trying to um grow a diverse range of species that and they look unusual as well like there's another plant that you probably know, the devil's witscabious, yeah, and the marsh fertility butterfly is his favorite plant, and so, and they're also beautiful. So, as many of those plants that I can grow and put into the ponds that I create. They don't just look unusual, but they could be doing something good that we don't even know.
Speaker 2:Or they could also be a plant stock and for wild habitats, when, eventually, hopefully, we do a bit more re-wetting and there might be a bit more genetic diversity, if the plants are are in urban gardens and and on farm gardens, like wouldn't it be amazing if we and I know we do have lots of farm ponds, but farm ponds, I think uh will also be very important for sort of the spreading, the re-spreading of these species that are in in decline yeah, and so the plants, the plants then that we're going to put into this pond.
Speaker 1:Let's start in the in the deep, in the deep areas and I know you're not going to talk about water lilies and things like that, so let's.
Speaker 2:I like water lilies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:I put in water lilies. That's actually the only one that's not native that I put in, but I have the native the yellow lily, but I haven't the yellow lily, but I haven't. I've only had the guts to put that into one pond because it it can be invasive. It has to be a big pond and you have to tell people this is native, this is massive, it could kind of go a bit wild, and so that's why you would need to put a management plan in place to say, okay, you're getting this plant, it is native, this is potentially what it could do. The same with them, some of the reeds potentially they might damage a liner. So you sort of have to hash out, um, the pros and cons of things and the plants that you use, or, um, the area that you're in and what you might be allowed to put in or not. So so the deep water I definitely would be putting in the lilies just because they're gorgeous and I'm not a total purist, I'm still a gardener um, so, no, they are gorgeous. And then, um, the I'm the bulrush. Some people call it reed mace. It's. It would be sort of uh, deep ish water and it's a bit. Some people call it reed mace. It would be sort of deep-ish water and it's a bit of a.
Speaker 2:I call it my migratory plant. It always goes where it wants to go, not where I put it. So most pond plants will migrate. They just do what they want to do. So you put them in, you keep an eye on them and they're putting their tendrils down going. Actually I like this level a bit better, which is totally fine, and then you might even move them to there or repot them, and you shouldn't really have to repot. So if we're talking about small ponds, where plants are in crates, they're not in the ground, you should really get three years if you've potted up nicely and you have a decent specimen, if you've caught it up nicely and you have a decent specimen. Or what you can do sometimes is you can get a secateurs and you can cut away the edges that grow out.
Speaker 2:So there's another plant that I use that's debatable whether it's native or not. It's called sweet galangal and it's in a lot of ponds. It looks like a kind of carex sedge thing. It's beautiful, flowing in the wind and it's amazing for water quality. So it would be quite deep as well and it has these beautiful fibrous roots that come out of the pot and they're absorbing the nutrients. So you can get away with pruning back to the pot for a few years and then you would need to lift and divide, and the same would go for most of the plants. The Marshmary Gold is a great plant, so it would be a little bit higher up, closer to the margin, and if you want to propagate from it, you basically dip the flower in the water and leave it attached to the plant and it will grow new little plantlets that you can cut off and plant. Brilliant, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then out into the outer zones. What are we planting out there?
Speaker 2:Well, ironically, the outer zones are a funny one, so aesthetically in nature, it would be that the big rushes would be your backdrop, but that doesn't really work. So the calta would be one, or, sorry, the marsh marigold would be one of them. The spearworts I also have this lovely plant and it's a bit of a tricky one called tubular water dropwort, which is quite rare in the wild, and it has these massive uh tubular stems that sort of need support. So if you manage in um, a lake or a turlock in the wild, you'd have all these plants growing in conjunction with each other and they all support each other, a bit like a wildflower meadow. You need sort of the, the bamboos that we would use with their other plants.
Speaker 2:So this plant grows tall and but he would be in the margins and has lovely umbelifer uh flowers that all the insects love. So I would grow them a lot, kind of dot them all alongside each other so that they prop each other up when they're in the wind. Because when you're walking towards a pond in a normal garden you sort of don't want your view blocked but at the same time you have to put your plants where they're going to be happiest, and the irises, of course, are great in that area too. Um, I do use the, the purple one, which isn't native, and obviously the yellow flag, but you want to keep an eye on the yellow flag because he can be a bruiser. Um, yeah, so they're beautiful.
Speaker 2:They're absolutely gorgeous flowers, yeah yeah, um, and then the sedges and grasses, and I'm starting to grow these tiny little rushes. Uh, so there's one um called jointed rush and, uh, bulbous rush, and they're only. They're only teeny, tiny little. Now, depending on the soil, obviously they'll grow bigger if you give them more nutrients. But again, these little things dotted around and water mosses and some of the hornworts, I just really like to mix it up. So usually people will block plant, which is more impressive. But having it evenly distributed, the little and and the big, they all help each other and they all have kind of a symbiotic relationship with each other, and I'm assuming the microbiome as well and the creatures.
Speaker 1:So and in terms of time then. So we we've, you know we've. We've dug out our pond with the different layers and we've done our planting. Now it's going to take time, as you said, to build up this symbiotic relationship and for everything to come into balance. Does it take? I know you'll get, you'll get some creatures coming in quite quickly, but how long is it before it starts to function fully?
Speaker 2:uh, I would say fairly quickly, depends on how many plants you put in. So if you're, if you don't put enough plants in, you'll always be fighting an uphill battle with your water quality. So I nearly rather put in too many plants and be taking them out of its skin. Now, just because the client said put in whatever you want, and I added the logs, and I added the different layers, the different grades of pebble and sand and as many plants as possible and sort of within the week that it went in, I had insects arriving and nowadays are a very nicely rewilded site, so they probably had loads to begin with. Yeah, um, but definitely within one year. You should see, um, stuff should arrive like within. If you put in water and you've got frogs in your garden, they're going to be there instantly. They're not going to ignore it, you know and what about?
Speaker 1:what about if you don't have frogs? So, um, you might, you might start to pick up. I have have in my head here the thought of doing quite a big wildlife pond at some point in the near future. Years ago, when I was a child, around here, frogs and toads were quite plentiful, and I haven't seen one in I don't know how long I really don't know how long it is since I saw a frog.
Speaker 1:Very very, very luckily yeah, um, and there's probably a few factors at play there, and most of which are outside my control. But yeah, I'm wondering if, I'm wondering if, if, if I do put in, you know know, a big wildlife pond, how likely am I to get frogs? I know I can introduce them from up the road.
Speaker 2:I would say you might be surprised to be honest.
Speaker 2:Like we don't see them. A lot of people say to me it's only because I'm working with them that I see them all the time. But there are plenty of people that are out in nature that don't see them. They're designed to not be seen because you're technically a predator. So they might be there and you're not seeing them, but, um, no, I think that if you left it like, obviously they spawn around valentine's day, that's the amplexus, um, so I would definitely wait and see what you get. Now. The other thing about building a very big pond is you're going to attract birds and if you attract ducks, they have a great time with the spawn and they're really specific and amazing that they'll eat the yolk out of the jelly. So you might come out one day and you feel like you've got acres of spawn and by the next few days it's just turned into goo because you've had ducks arrive and they eat it.
Speaker 2:And there's another really interesting dynamic between frogs and newts. So I have some ponds that have both and some ponds that have graduated from frogs to just newts, and the reason that is is because the frogs come earlier and lay. As I said, it used to be Valentine's Day. Now, because of climate change. It can vary from january, right, it can go on for two months, okay, and so they arrive first. But that doesn't mean that the newts aren't there.
Speaker 2:And the newts don't lay until around may and they lay an individual egg wrapped in the foliage of aquatic plants. So what happens is is the frogs do their business. They go off about, uh, eating, getting fattening up after laying, and the newts come in and they fatten themselves up the same way the ducks do, and they eat the yolks. So sometimes in a small pond you'll see this floating mass of frogs born with no black dots, and that might be because you have newts. So sometimes they can get rid of that population of frogs by preventing the the self-propagation of those frogs. So it's a really interesting thing yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'd be building something that big that will attract ducks. Um, that's yeah. No, that that wouldn't be an issue like when I say big um not acres no, not acres, no, on the bigger end of a garden, of a garden wildlife pond.
Speaker 2:I think you'll be surprised. And if you're not surprised then yeah, technically we're not supposed to move them. But I'm always saying to people you know, there's plenty of places that you can go to. I've been called out to many rescues where a pond is being got rid of and in that case obviously you're going to rescue the wildlife and bring them to somewhere else you know, and then once they have a handle on it, you're, they're never leaving you.
Speaker 2:Um, and also I, I quite often rescue frog spawn from mountain. You know the gullies that quails have on either side of the roads. They quite often lay in them and then they dry out. So rescuing that spawn from drying out is not a bad thing in my opinion yeah, that's where I've seen a lot now locally.
Speaker 1:Is is in those gullies at the side of forestry lanes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly so you'd be doing a good thing by yeah you're letting them be residents in your new pond okay, so, um, that's kind of the wildlife pond.
Speaker 1:Is there anything we've missed there?
Speaker 2:for somebody that's looking to to create one um um, I think that the habitat beside the pond is important as well. Um, so again with the stone and logs are so important. So, so, if you build a pond, if you want your frogs to stay over the winter or have a safe hidey place, piles of stones and it doesn't have to be an ugly pile of stone like somebody dumped a barrel load of rocks in your garden, but that's also effective. But, yeah, having layers of stone with little gaps in it is super important, like if you on so many maintenance projects or I do a lot of refurbishments. So somebody that's had a pond for 30 years and it's suddenly leaking and a loved one built it and I try and rebuild it nearly exactly as they did. They quite often have rubble all around them and it's alive with frogs and cool insects.
Speaker 2:But there's a really cool um woodlice that's pink and he's specifically yeah, he's really cool. I was reading up on him the other day and he specifically likes caves and weirdly they're found more in um the protestant churchyards than cath, because back in the day the Protestants used a different type of mortar, apparently, which is more attractive to this little guy. It's on Wikipedia, you can look it up, so you'll get all those really cool things that, like it, might look like nothing to you, but it's a home for somebody. And again, the hedgehog houses um, oh, be, uh. Bumblebee houses are really easy to make, so within your pile of rocks. Or you can make it nicely like a dry stone wall with some plants on it. You can get an upturned terracotta pot a bit of hose out of where the drainage will usually be and prop it up on some rocks and get a chicken wire ball.
Speaker 2:Just make a little ball and stuff some dried grass into it and have no I lie, sorry the hose to go underneath the main opening and put a cap on the top and just put that into your wall and if they use it, they use it, but if it's not there, they can't use it and so that that's, that's for bumblebees, bumblebees, terranian bumblebees, yeah, okay, just I know, I know we spoke about this the other day a little bit, but, um, we'll, we'll delve into it slightly, creating a proper bumblebee house, and I know our habitat and I know you don't like the word bumblebee hotel, as, as you will see, or b hotel.
Speaker 1:Um, how, what's the proper, what's the proper way of doing this, or what are the? Key points, because I know some of them that you'll see the fancy ones in. You know that you can buy they're not functional at all. They might look pretty and so on, but they're not functional. So function wise. What? What are the key things?
Speaker 2:I can't keep it simple, like there's another thing you can do. It sounds gross, but hoverflies like to lay in kind of gooey disgustingness, um, in kind of forest uh ponds where there's decay, so you can just put a bucket in a shady place, put water in it sounds gross a bit of soil, leaves, logs, and then top it up with um sort of leaf litter and they will lay in there, um, so that's one habitat. Let's say then the minor bees like a sandy area, whether that actually works or not, that you can create that habitat that they like, I don't know, but there's no harm in leaving some sand out. The leaf cutting bees are super easy. Just get a log, drill some holes in. It has to be placed in a south facing area because they need that heat. Again, the bumblebee hut, like all the separate. And again the bumblebee hut, like all the separate.
Speaker 2:I I just don't feel myself that with the hotels that everybody is going to occupy it at the same time, um, and they're freestanding, I imagine because they're freestanding, they probably get bombarded by the weather and winter and might, like animals and insects, need cover. Um, so leaving your leaves on the ground as much, not cutting things back until as late as possible as you can leave it because, as you know yourself for instance, we were talking about knapweed before within the heads of a lot of these flowers are overwintering insects, and not only are they overwintering, but the birds know they're overwintering, so the birds are going to come in and have their protein snack. So, the more things I think that you can leave and undisturbed. You're probably doing more that way than you are by buying one of these expensive houses that I think a lot of them have paint on them like I don't know how that can be good, but, yeah, leaving. Or again, like a log on the ground If you turn over a log, the cool ground beetles. So the ground beetles are really important as well.
Speaker 2:All of the insects together, just stone wood, the leaf cutter bees, believe it or not. Um, roses, I think the best because they have that again. If I was in the bee mentality. They have a lovely rigid feel to their leaves. So if you have a rose garden maybe you should have a few logs and a few holes in it if you don't want, or if you, if you don't mind holes, cutting your leaves yeah, it makes sense and we spoke about it before.
Speaker 1:ground beetles are brilliant for slugs, so for the control of slugs, like so, yeah, all of these, all of these things have have a function and, as you say, we don't, most of the time we don't understand everything that's happening there, or even even, to be honest, a large part of it. But if you, if you understand it's a bit like soil health you you won't know everything that's going on down there, but by looking after the soil, by improving the soil, you know that there's good things happening, and I suppose that's what the aim is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:I've seen you. As part of one of your ponds, you created a hedgehog house.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, that was in a beetle bank, so I love beetle banks because I think beetles are amazing. So don't forget that on your excavation. You have all of this lovely soil and you might, depending on how deep your soil is, you'll have different. Um, the soil horizon could be include loads of really cool soil, because I love soil as well. Why wouldn't you, if you're a gardener? And the hedgehog house in the beetle bank I used unfortunately, I used a lot of ash dieback, because I think what's happening with the ash dieback is, yes, it's a crop that we can harvest to burn, but then we're releasing the carbon. Think about that in the long term and try to use a lot of these trees for good to lock in the carbon.
Speaker 2:I'm now building beaker banks like a log wall either facing, facing in sort of like a disc. I did it for a very big pond on a research farm and then you backfill with soil so you have the opportunity there to create all kinds of houses within that bank. So I created a long tunnel in for the hedgehog, because they like a long entrance and they like to kind of go up the way, because if it's deeper than the original soil level of what you're constructing. They could be. It could get flooded or damp. So you kind of build up a ramp, put a gravelly sort of a bottom in it and then cap it and you can either put grass in.
Speaker 2:But to be honest, I think with most animals they don't like what we choose for them and I don't blame them. So if you are lucky enough to get a hedgehog, it'll do its own bedding. And now they do say that you can't have hedgehogs and badgers together. I don't fully believe that, they say, and it is true that badgers will predate hedgehogs, but I don't know anyone lucky enough to have both of them in their garden has to be sort of safe enough that no baddies can get in there and take the young.
Speaker 2:And I think I built a stoat house as well. Um, like there's so much. We have the internet at our fingertips. It's when you're planning a pond. I would go do a deep dive on the internet on all of the different creatures that benefit from water and see what little things that you can do to help those animals. And because in your construction phase you have that opportunity to put in all these extra little houses and use the native plants surrounding again like the easiest plant to grow in disrupted soil would be foxgloves. You just throw the seed in and away it goes, and you know. Then you can decide afterwards. You don't have to have a grand plan either.
Speaker 1:You can just do it as it as it comes along yeah, yeah for sure, um, it's there's, there's the world of, of, um, I suppose way there's loads of things we could still talk about on that. And my head is ticking away here. I'm trying to, I'm even picturing that as you were talking there. I'm picturing where I'm putting it and uh, yeah, cool kind of have.
Speaker 1:I have the idea already, and when you were mentioning it, it's it'll be at the bottom of a slope and that slope is actually a really shaley bank already. So I think the yeah, the log wall, that's another really important topic is your soil.
Speaker 2:So, um, digging wise, that can be there, because of course there's different things that you can use. I haven't had the privilege yet of using bentonite, um, but according to your soil, you might be lucky enough to be able to dig a decent hole and it be a natural pond, in which case it has totally different management. But if you're using liners and so the shady stuff, the sandy stuff, it can be really tricky to maintain the structure, but you have to be so careful because it just falls away, whereas if you've got really deep clay, uh, solid, like rock solid stuff, it's nearly like cutting concrete, you know yeah, yeah um I should have where I'm putting it, I should have both.
Speaker 1:So down, down down, the bottom part is going to be there'll be a little bit of topsoil and then it'll be a subsoil which around here, because this is an old coal miling area, you have quite marley stuff now. It's not going to be good enough to hold water completely, um, but it certainly will be easy enough to shape once you get down a little bit. But then it's because it's again an old coal miling area there's these kind of little banks of shale around the fields and one of those banks is where where this will go, and it is literally like shale. But I won't be, I won't be digging there. It'll be down down slightly further. I'll be digging for that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it sounds very similar to that pond that I was saying to you, that I did about a year ago. They're the same, so they have this lovely marl at the bottom.
Speaker 2:It's a delight to dig and because it just it's like you're sculpting you know it just comes away perfectly, whereas the sandy stuff, oh, they're rocks poking out, and in that case, if you do have soil like that, you want to take extra precautions on how to protect your liner. Now, the ddpm liners are amazing, as you know. You probably, in those situations, would want to do sand underlay liner and as you get bigger, you might want to use a geotextile on top. Um, but um, yeah, it sounds like you'll have.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's fun to do as well to make your shapes yeah, should we just why did you say geotherm?
Speaker 2:so your sand geoliner, yeah yeah, so on this very big pond, um, I did. The geotextile is this very thick black geotextile and what it allows you to do is to put rocks in on top.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, now I get it yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and basically it's like and it also wicks. So if you've got a massive area with a liner and the surface area of the pond is quite big and you get a hot day. You've got a lot of evaporation day, you've got a lot of evaporation. So to prevent the liner from being damaged by a water drop that isn't being filled, the geotextile on top will have capillary action out to the sides, which will marry into the. It just makes it a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, makes sense now. I was wondering why that was for a second. Yeah, yeah, only in big ponds are you that that big pond that we're talking about on the research farm you allowed? Talk about that, or I don't know so okay, we park it, it's a it's a very big one, though, isn't?
Speaker 1:it yeah yeah, okay, so we won't say anything about that one.
Speaker 1:And then in uh, we, we mentioned it briefly earlier on in relation to suds and just so people are aware, with a lot of home gardeners won't be aware of what it is.
Speaker 1:Obviously a lot of our landscape architects and garden designers are very much aware of it now and it's it's a way of essentially in layman's terms, it's a way of slowing down water exiting your site or being captured on your site.
Speaker 1:Essentially, and trying to trying to slow it down initially is the big thing and then trying to do something with that water that is slowed down. So, for example, if you have 10 down pipes off your house and your outbuildings and wherever they go, that they're not just being rushed off the site, that they go through a sort of a catchment area and that it breaks the flow so that they're not just flowing off down somewhere else, and and they're trying to do that on a bigger scale, especially in urban areas, to slow down the exit of water yeah, essentially it's a great idea and all the councils have taken it on board and I think they have to actually yeah and and it makes huge sense because we have so many problems with certain cities and towns with floodwaters on rivers because essentially, we've canalised a lot of waterways to suit ourselves and we've eliminated the floodplains and all of the hard surfaces within urban areas, it's all just going to stormwater, going to stone water or storm water.
Speaker 2:so I try to encourage people to do, if they're changing their driveway, simple things like please get gravel instead of, you know, tarmac or concrete, and because it's a slower percolation, it's not just going straight out onto the road. Or again, you can, you absolutely can use your downpipe to fill your pond and have maybe a percolation area around the pond, because don't forget that if your pond is filling from your roof, that you will also need an overflow in your garden and that will need to be planted accordingly, and.
Speaker 2:But it's a great idea and I hope it kind of gets a bit more promoted in the public eye, because there's so many individuals that could just make a different decision. That would help with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again, like this can be done in home gardens as well. Examples of that were at this conference in the springtime. There were some brilliant examples and I forget it was from some town council in the UK samples and I forget it was from some town council in the UK, but essentially where they taught people how to capture water into some form of a tank, basically at the bottom of their downpipe, and they slowed it firstly by the water was coming down chains, which obviously looked good, sounded good. When it got there, there was a whole load of of of different layers, like you were talking about your layers in your pond, so there was three or four different depths within this tank.
Speaker 1:Essentially, now, it was a beautiful tank. It wasn't just a um, you know, water tank. It was. It was painted up and it looked really good. It was planted and then they had different layers in it and then at the end you had your overflow. So the water exited then as it would, but in the meantime it had been slowed down. It was feeding an ecosystem which had lots of different plants, lots of different insects and, yeah, it was just slowing the water down and there was a habitat there as well yeah and it was.
Speaker 1:It was beautiful and they were trying to replicate this. It was done on some of the some of the town buildings and they did demos on it and then people were able to take that away on a smaller scale and do it in their homes.
Speaker 2:So it was, yeah, it was really good yeah, I think in some of the big town plans now don't they have um designs for wetlands within the city to do exactly that on a bigger scale. So they, I think they even have tanks in the ground and they would have a wetland system where then, of course, the water is filtered. So by the time it gets to the streams and the rivers it's not full of all the stuff that we have in in our atmosphere that's poisonous to all those aquatic animals and plants so yes, it's really positive thing yeah, tell us a little bit about your business, so obviously your day-to-day.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that you're calling to, uh, these little old ladies that have their problems, but yeah, they're great yeah yeah, um, so you have all these, you have all these ponds. So you're you're doing main, you're doing maintenance in sort of older established ponds, revamps in some creation of new ones. So just tell us about your kind of day-to-day, week-to-week day.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, so it's exactly that. So generally what I try to do in the winter months I'm doing maintenance, and because I have a cut off ish time before Valentine's Day and so many people ring me in January going can you get to my pond? What about the frogs? Because everybody knows that if they tell me that there's an animal endangered, I'll be there tomorrow. And so I try to do the maintenance stuff over the winter months and because it's construction is is difficult enough in Ireland, uh, in the ground uh, let alone being in December or January, and and then sort of from spring on I would be doing construction on greenfields and reconstruction, and I'm growing my own plants for those ponds as much as I can, and so that is is part of it as well, and then going forward, I would also maintain those ponds and then lots of times I would then build herbaceous slash wildflower beside that.
Speaker 2:So I do garden design as well, but not kind of conventional stuff Like there'd have to be a few weeds in there. And I have one client she won't mind me saying she comes out every time and I built her a big waterfall for her and there's this one persistent dandelion and she comes out and she's like actually I'm watching you, now you have to take it out, I'm not leaving until you take it out. So that kind of thing. And um, and people I think over the years get a bit more embrace of of allowing things to grow. So that same lady, I did um a bee garden for her and this year, now, to be fair, tree was taken down so probably has more light. Um, but I tried to to do what I, what I said to you earlier please don't cut back anything until as late as you can like the end of January, february, if you really have to and and allow some of the weeds to grow and do an annual weed maybe, or twice weed, but, um, I just find that the plants grow amazingly together. And also another thing that I would try and encourage all of my pond and garden people to do is never leave the soil naked ever.
Speaker 2:Um, because, uh, nature hates that, nature hate the void, and so I'd be doing that as well. So I have, I'll do maintenance, garden maintenance, well, adjacent pond garden maintenance for my clients as well, um, but just those ones. So I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be doing normal like grass cutting or that kind of thing. So, um, yeah, and then, and then with those clients, if I put in a new pond, I would say that usually they don't need to see me back for maybe three years, unless something goes drastically wrong. Um, another thing I'm starting to do now is with green water problems. I'm introducing daphnia instead of any kind of like. I'm really anti all chemicals and I've had to fight a lot of people for years. But so there's, I'm sure you know, about blanket wheat. Everybody hates blanket wheat and duckweed.
Speaker 2:So with blanket wheat is an interesting. So many people are tempted to use chemicals and, to be fair, they do work, just in that period. But if you imagine you've got a body of water and you have this blanket weed that you hate, the reason that it's there is because there's nutrients to grow. It's meant to be there. So if you remove it and you consistently remove it and you grow more plants, eventually you'll deplete the nutrient stock in the water and it won't have somewhere to go. However, if you kill it, what happens is it rots, it goes to the bottom and the cycle is continuing. So you will forever have to kill it with that chemical.
Speaker 2:So, even though it's a long sort of frame to finally eliminating it or keeping it on a manageable level, you do have to put in the hard graft to remove it and the best times to remove it. So it starts to really flourish in May and it has this really annoying phase where when you touch it, it breaks apart and goes everywhere. It's really frustrating, and so you have to wait for it to be a bigger, thicker plant, where it rises to the top and it kind of goes a limey green with bubbles in it, and then you can easily stand in and wrap your hands around it like big clumps and it's fantastic in the compost heap. So use nature to your advantage. Don't fight anything, unless it's a non-native thing. It's a non-native, off with its head. But if it's a native, um, it's part of a cycle and it's not your fault or anybody's fault. It's just. It's just something that you have to think your way around and manage it accordingly. That's my, my opinion anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very clever way of looking at it because, as you say, if that blanket weed gets at you, that decomposes on the bottom of the pond and away your cycle goes again. So you don't solve the problem. You're constantly in a treatment phase, as opposed to a slightly more, as you said, a slightly slower approach, but a more balanced approach that gives, that gives you this full balance in time exactly and remember that it's doing a job for you yeah, yeah, it's there for a reason like plant the weeds, not the enemy.
Speaker 2:It's actually taking nutrients out. Then you take those nutrients out, you put them in your compost heap and you redistribute nutrients every you know somewhere else. Like it's photosynthesis, it's a veiling of something that's there. So fighting it isn't working with it. I think working with nature all the time proves better.
Speaker 1:So where can? So that's, that's your kind of day to day stuff creating, maintaining, building habitats and the plants and the plants to to go with your ponds in in gardens, and where can people find you? Where's the best place to get in contact with you or email?
Speaker 2:address. I only have social me. I only have instagram. At the moment I do mean to build a website but, like with everything, I'm a bit more, more sort of outside most of the time rather than inside. So, yeah, I bit the bullet and I did the social media thing.
Speaker 2:I think it was last year and just because I knew that I'm me knowing me that's all over the place the whole time that the likelihood that I was going to sit down at a computer and do it was low. So the social media has just been an easy out, and I know that not everybody is on social media, um, so, uh, I do sort of word of mouth as well, like I mainly work in Dublin, wicklow and Galway, um, but I mean I can go further afield. But I think, and I do advisory on for people if they want to build their own with their own crew, so I can do a plan and a design with the different plants and elements and creatures that you want to attract, doing kind of hybrid swim pond, uh, wildlife ponds now as well, with that design in mind that it's a little bit more naturalistic. And I wouldn't be I don't have my digger driving tickets just yet, so, um, don't know if I'd have time for that as well I noticed the just yet bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, like diggers and tractors.
Speaker 1:We have covered an episode on natural swimming pools, as it happens, and it was an unusual episode for the podcast, it wasn't a typical one, but it was hugely popular actually, and continues to be, hugely popular oh.
Speaker 2:I think they're great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brilliant, it was something that was in my head for this pond and then I didn't realize you just have to sort of spark and something else in my mind now that they could be combined from my wildlife lovely stories to do with these ponds.
Speaker 2:So it was a lady who bought her father's house. Her father was incredible, so he was in the orchid society, built his own pond like the garden. He's just one of these incredible people who did everything. And this old koi pond, completely dilapidated, full of rushes I think it was built maybe 30, 40 years ago Plants from the burn when you're allowed to do that, maybe. And um, when I finally had reconstructed the insight to allow for wildlife because a koi pond is built quite differently to wildlife ponds because they need so much depth, and I was looking at it going, god, are you sure you don't want to make this into a swim pond? She's like, no, actually you can't make it into a swim pond, but it wasn't that big and it absolutely you could have. You could have sat on that with your glass of wine, no problem. And so you don't have to be massive, like you don't actually have to be able to do lengths in them okay, so just a dip yeah, a little dip upon how big would it need to be?
Speaker 2:that one was only was it three or four meters long. Now, to be fair, it was a meter and a half deep, I think, because it was a koi pond, so technically you could sit on the edge of that and be pretty much submerged and you could tread water if you tried really hard. But it was perfect for it. In fact, when I put it up I think I think I have it on my social media somebody did comment that looks like a small swimming pool because it was just for it. In fact, when I put it up I think I think I have it on my social media somebody did comment that looks like a small swimming pool because it was just the shape of it. It had been built so hard-sided for the koi and I then adapted it for the wildlife.
Speaker 1:But you could absolutely sit in that if, if you were so inclined, I would so I'll uh, I'll put the link to your instagram in the show notes, but people can find you it's pond girl ashley on on instagram and uh, yeah, if, if anyone is not on instagram, just send me an email and I'll get ashley's permission to pass on her email address to you as well. If, if, if you're inquiring about any ponds, so typically you're working in the Wicklow Dublin area and in the Galway area yeah brilliant it's been.
Speaker 1:Actually, it's been a really interesting chat. Um, my head is ticking away here in the background. It's, uh, there's there's lots that I want to do with water in the garden. So, as I say, frogs used to see loads of them, don't anymore. That's, that's something that I'd like to see back around the place. So, um, yeah I, I have, I have plans anyway. So you're after answering a good few of my of my questions on those things and, yeah, thank you very, very much for coming on. Master, my garden podcast thank you.
Speaker 2:It's been lovely to talk to you and hopefully there's loads of more inspired people that are going to go out and make lovely habitats for all our lovely creatures.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. So that's been this week's episode. A huge thanks, ashley, for coming on. Really interesting.
Speaker 1:Jess, yeah, I knew beforehand that this conversation would go in a good few different ways, and it did. And I forgot about suds, and that's really really important as well. But the creation of a wildlife pond in your garden is hugely beneficial. We've spoke about it on the podcast on numerous occasions before and, as Ashley mentioned, that can be anything from a small little barrel right up to a fully fledged wildlife pond, just bearing in mind you know the, the principles and the ideas that that Ashley mentioned creating these different zones that are suitable for all these different creatures that will come. So, as the saying goes, you build it and they'll come, but if you follow the principles that you mentioned, you're pretty sure of success with it. And, yeah, loads of great information there. If anyone has any questions or wants to get in touch with Ashley around any projects or upcoming projects and you're not on on social media just send me a message and I'll get in touch with Ashley. And that's been this week's episode. Thanks for listening and until the next time, happy gardening, thank you.