Champions of Risk
Champions of Risk
Charlene DeCesare on the Art of Sales (Season 3 Episode 10)
Whether or not you want to admit it, you're in sales. It's not just a profession or title description. Anyone who introduces themselves, interacts with others, persuades and influences...is in sales. There is a lot of resistance and declaration of not wanting to "sound salesy" and it's high time you got over it because it often stands in the way of getting outcomes you say you want. Charlene DeCesare is here to help. Charlene is a Senior Consultant and Lead Facilitator for the research-based sales training company, The RAIN Group, and iauthor of "The Email Cemetery: Where Bad Sales Emails Go to Die & How to Resuscitate Yours." Learn practical steps to improving communication and buy-in. This episode has at least one new takeaway for everyone regardless of how long you've been in sales or avoiding saying you sell.
Notes:
Wynning Your Way for Senior Leaders
Hello, I'm Michael W Kithcart, high performance leadership coach and the creator of the winning your way framework. Welcome to the champions of risk podcast, where I feature business leaders and high performance principals through shared stories of triumphs and tough calls. So you're better equipped to navigate ongoing uncertainty, take inspired action, and define what it means to be winning your way in business and in life. This episode is for the revenue generators, the ones who put it all on the line in the name of providing solutions for clients and closing business. Now, before you tried to tell me that you're not a salesperson, let me just ask you, have you ever had to persuade someone to see your point of view either personally or professionally? Or have you ever crafted an email where you really needed someone to respond to it? And they didn't? Yeah, I thought so. So keep listening. My guest today is Charlene DeCesare or Charlene ignites, as she is known on all her social. She is a sales advisor with over 30 years of building successful sales organizations all around the world. Currently, she's a senior consultant and lead facilitator for the research based sales training company, the rain group. She's also the author of the email cemetery where bad sales emails go to die and how to resuscitate yours. Charlene, welcome to the podcast.
Charlene DeCesare:Wow, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Michael Kithcart:This is going to be a fun conversation. Oh, yeah. And you know how it always starts, right? One sales person meets the other salesperson and we go, how did you get into sales? You know, how do they do?
Charlene DeCesare:So true? Well, I love what you said earlier that in some ways, everyone is in sales. And particularly, you know, even as a kid, I was pretty good to get my way. And if you think about what selling or sales is, it's really about persuasion. It's about getting other people to see your point of view. And sometimes there's revenue at the end of that conversation or that negotiation that doesn't have to be that way. But actually, my first paid sales job, I guess, the first time I ever got paid for being in sales, I was 16. It was my first job ever. And I worked in retail, and I have never stopped. So I'm not trying to say I'll be 54 this year. And I've been doing some kind of sales since I was 16 years old. And I love it. I love it.
Michael Kithcart:It's so true that I get people who just say, Oh, no, I could never do sales. And then you walk them through what it is that they do in life and how they get what they want. And all that everybody on some level is that's why Daniel Pink wrote the book to sell is to be human, right, you know, along. But when did you realize that you were actually good at sales? Because there are those who get into sales? And it's not for them? How did you know you were good?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, it's interesting, because actually, I don't think I probably was that good when I first started. But, you know, I've certainly had some training and have had amazing mentors. In my life. One of my best mentors used to always say, to me that increased confidence brings increased capacity. And so to some extent, you know, it's sort of just happened because I've had experience and I realized that most of the time in sales were not like in life and death situations. And I actually think the reason why most people are afraid of it is because they're trying too hard. You know, they make it bigger than it needs to be, or they feel like they have to be that guy who's like, what can I do to get you in this Prius today? Right. And the reality is the best salespeople, and I think this is true for me, too. It are the people that you know, don't resort to being a robot or Ickes tactics. It's more about making connections and having conversations. Well,
Michael Kithcart:there you go, that that makes a big difference. When you look back on your sales career, what would you say? Did you have a tendency to to work more in the service side of sales or products? Because that can make a difference?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, so most of my career from you know, like after high school, I guess, has been in high value services, really selling intangibles. Although it's some mostly b2b, but some high value b2c, so business to business or business to consumer that said, you know, I worked with a lot of real estate agents. I've worked with people who have Network Marketing Product businesses, I've worked with a lot of people who have products, and a lot of the principles can still apply as long as it's really about the relationships that you're looking to build. So I would say it's it's really If I'd like cat encapsulated, its relationship based sales is really my forte.
Michael Kithcart:And sometimes people will, because I've led sales teams, I've been a salesperson, and I just was thinking before we met, like, what is that consistent theme? Like, what, where do people tend to get tripped up on? And it seems like really at the beginning, just feeling like they have to know the perfect thing to say that that's going to magically, like, open up this relationship. And, and it really isn't about one moment. And yet, there's still ways to prepare yourself better for that opening. And I'm curious if you have any, you know, any things that you are tips that are like, tried and true around that?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, I mean, I think, to your point, people were worried about the perfect thing to say, and especially like giving the pitch, you know, like, how do we especially if they're new at something, or they don't know a lot about maybe the new product or the service, or they don't feel practiced in their elevator speech or whatever. And here's the thing, I'm gonna let everyone off the hook here. The thing that will get you in the door is not what you say, it is what you ask. And so if you're ever nervous about going into any interaction, prepare great questions, do your homework so that you know something about them. And then really that magic bullet, and it kind of is one is show them, you know, them be genuinely curious. Ask Great Questions, get them talking. Because actually, when they're talking, you're winning. Right? And so that's the goal. So take the pressure off.
Michael Kithcart:Yes. That you summarized it beautifully.
Charlene DeCesare:Michael, this is why they pay me the big bucks Okay.
Michael Kithcart:Clearly this is why Charlene is the master trainer.
Charlene DeCesare:it's that and maybe my fantastic singing voice? I'm not sure. I'm just getting on that second one.
Michael Kithcart:So when you were a salesperson, what would you say? Were some of your personalized traits? What made you such a great seller? Or become one?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, I think I'm very goal oriented, which helps in a couple of ways. One is, I know what I'm trying to achieve overall. So I have this sense of really, what am I driving towards? And then what are the steps I need to take to get there? So I think there is this sort of sense of prioritization and work ethic that really does help. And then I think in the interactions, it is, hey, I really like people. I, I enjoy hearing people's stories. I am genuinely curious. And I always go to a place of tapping into how can I help them? And you know, what if it means I sell something that I do? If I don't have something that will truly help them, then I won't and that's okay. So I think a lot of people their biggest fears, rejection, like they don't want to hear the word no. To me, I sort of embrace that, because I feel like if somebody ever says no to me, or we, you know, it's not really a rejection of me, it's really a mutual agreement, that there's just not a good fit. Because otherwise, an objection is not a rejection. And objection might be their way of saying to us, Chris bosses, who's the author of the book never split the difference? He says, Sometimes no means helped me say yes. And if I feel like the right answer for them is yes, I'm going to help them get there. And I will be a little bit professionally assertive about helping them get there. Right. So yeah,
Michael Kithcart:how often though, have you found that people just won't even make the ask?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, I mean, that. I mean, it's that's the old adage, right? If you don't ask for the sale, you won't get it. Right. Usually, you know, we see this even, you know, I do a lot of sales training, I see this even in the emails that I review, and people don't even ask for a meeting, let alone the sale. They'll say things like, you know, just let me know if you're interested. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, honey, but they will never let you know. Just like if anytime you have any messages as let me know. You know, usually it's pretty good chance they won't. But yeah, you know, I think embracing a sense of confidence to help. It's not even an ask, it's really like an offer, right? It's saying, look, here's why it makes sense for you. Here's why I think you know how I'm going to connect to the value for you the transformation I can create. And let's go you know, it's just like when you want to start, you know, and it's, it's not pushing anyone into something it is really pulling them through based on their own Express needs and goals and challenges and all of that.
Michael Kithcart:Yeah, so one of the that pull through I love that phrase because what I often will share with people is Like, if you are asking questions in the right order, right, and you're taking them through a journey, and based off of things that they say you're providing some information that gives them more of an indicator, you're getting the buy in throughout that it is just that, lets go at the end, because you've been bringing them along the whole through the whole journey process. But I like that, that I can that visual that you have with the pull through on it, because that just makes it a better experience for everyone around I mean, if it's painful for the salesperson think how painful it is for the
Charlene DeCesare:person. You're not kidding. But it's true. Because so often when I hear when people think of sales, like oh, I don't want to be pushy, it's like, well, I don't want to be pushy, either. I don't want to be annoying. It's like, I don't know, are you an annoying person? Like, you know, it's it's not the it's not the sales conversation that makes you know, is not going to inherently make you push, you're annoying unless you're being pushy and annoying. But to your point is sort of leading, I'd say leading the witness, you know, leading them through their own story of transformation or their own story of solving a problem or achieving a goal. And at the end of it, it's like, okay, well, it sounds like there's a really great fit here based on you saying this, this and this, and us being able to work together to do this, this and this. So what's the right next step? Do you feel ready to sign a contract? Or do you feel ready to get your boss involved? Or do you feel ready, tell me what feels right to you. And that's a way that I typically will, quote unquote, close the deal without ever feeling like I'm being pushy, or salesy, you know, like, that goes right to what's the right next step. And if you think about it in terms of one step at a time, if the right next step is to an exchange of, you know, money or exchange of contract, or whatever it is, then say, does that feel right? Like the right next step? If it's not the right next step, they'll tell you what is and say, Okay, great. Well, let's do that. You know, unless, you know, there's some objection inherent to that, that you need to overcome. So,
Michael Kithcart:yeah, at a time like that, what are you ready for next that that whole?
Charlene DeCesare:Well, and actually, the language choice, there actually is very key, and it's what feels like the right next step, or what feels right to you. And the reason why I'll always defer to even in a conversation, does that feel right to what feels right to you, is because I'm purposely and proactively always tapping into the emotional decision maker, because that's actually where the decision happens. So I'm reminding them, it's about how they feel. And I'm always working throughout the sales cycle, to make them feel a certain way. Because we know based on science, science, that decisions happen in the subconscious 95% of decision making happens in the subconscious. And so people decide or buy based on emotion, they justify with facts and logic. So any opportunity I can to tap into the emotional center, whether it's mirroring their emotions, you know, echoing their emotions back to them speaking to the emotional impact, or saying something like, does that feel right to you? Or what feels right to you? very intentional word choice.
Michael Kithcart:Great clarification. Case studies, two are very popular. And because when people have success, those around them want to know, like, how did you do it worked? And I'm curious from the standpoint of because it is a podcast of champions of risk. What's a big risk that you have taken with a client, either because of the client situation, or as part of a sale, the sales process?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, you know, I think what feels like a big risk to a lot of people in the sales cycle is when they have to, well, one just reaching out to a stranger. I mean, it's, there's something sort of scary about that, you know, and then also, sort of related to that, whether it's at the beginning of a conversation, or at some point during the sales cycle, is really challenging the buyer point of view, and trying to change their mindset around something. It can feel like a big risk because sometimes when you challenge someone, you know, there's a risk, you're gonna push them so far outside their comfort zone, that they go into the fear zone or the paralysis zone, and then you know, and then you've lost them and you do kind of cross that kind of boundary, it could also be a risk to maybe tell someone why there's a sense of urgency. You know, when they say like, oh, you know, get back to me in two months, I have too much going on, I'm too busy, or I don't have the money, and you genuinely believe that what you have to offer them will make their life less stressful. Take things out there, play, save them money or save them time. You know, it's like you have to appreciate where they're coming from, and also challenge them to say yes and right. So that's the best way to Yes, and this is why this is important to do now, because based on what you told me about this, this, and this, if you don't do this now, in the two or three months, if I wait to get back to you, you're going to be twice as busy and you have a lot less money, and you'll be a lot more scared or a lot more stressed. So time is of the essence. What else is holding you back right now? You know, and sort of challenging from that sense of urgency? Yeah, but we're so trained to like the customer's always right. And one of the reasons why think about like Steve Jobs, who was a huge risk taker, you know, one of his mantras was, tell the customer what they want, tell the customer what they want. And so that may feel like a risk. And if you lead with the insights, you take the lead to help them again, sort of shaped their point of view and the way they should be thinking about things, not because you want to sell something, but because it is for them based on what they tell you is important to them, you know, what they're trying to overcome, or what they're trying to solve, or achieve.
Michael Kithcart:Right? On shifting perspective is very powerful, right, and useful and helpful. Like there's genuine good that you can be offering the client, even just the conversation around that. I always like the you know, where the hesitancy of like, is the timing, right? And that is just like, where are you going to be six months from now? If you just keep doing things the way that you're currently doing them? I mean, you're not happy with the results that you're getting right now?
Charlene DeCesare:Well, and that's a nice discovery question that everyone should ask in the beginning, which is, you know, what's the impact of doing nothing? Like what happens if you don't solve this? What happens if you never achieve that goal? What happens if you don't find a house? What happens if you don't, you know, fix your skin, or you don't like whatever it is, like, literally, there's any thing you can think of that you would sell? There's an impact of it, whether or not it's with me, or whether or not I use my solution? What happens if you don't do anything? What happens if you just keep doing what you're doing? And at the end of the day, as sellers we are change agents, right? So our job is help people change something, there are lots of things we could change. And meanwhile, human beings are hardwired for hardwired first homeostasis. So we're trying to create change, and a species that is designed not to change. This is what makes it challenging, and also really rewarding if you think about it, not as selling something and creating a transaction, but as a transformation, to get someone from where they are now to where they really want to or could be. It's magical, magical.
Michael Kithcart:That's great. Well, speaking of change, you were a salesperson and individual contributor, and you decided to make that sales leadership leap. What was that process like for you? Like, what did you learn about leading other people?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, so I was a reluctant leader. So my journey, I went from being an individual contributor to leader to starting my own businesses to then now I'm back in corporate again, actually, the story, the way that it happened was, if we have time, when I was a kid, my dad told me the story about how he left MIT, he was one of the first of his generation to get a college scholarship, but he couldn't deal with being in school. So he left went to a company where he had, he really thought he could do a job well wasn't qualified, wasn't qualified from an educational standpoint. So he said, I'll make a deal with you. Let me work for free for six months. And if you like me, then you'll hire me as if like, I have the degree and all the credentials, right? So I'd end up working hand in hand to becoming a very world renowned electrical engineer, and mentor and all of that. So I took a page out of his book, when I was an individual contributor, I had an idea for a sort of strategic accounts kind of model at the company I was working with, I originally spoke to them about it, their headquarters was in Connecticut, I live in New Hampshire. And so they were they saying, you know, we really need somebody who's gonna be in the corporate office, if we're going to trust you with like a team and resources and all of that. So I said, Well, I will make a deal with you, I will work for free. I said three months, because I'm way cheaper than my dad and I have a lot more bills. But I said, I will work for free for three months. And at the end of the three months, if I don't grow the business 20% Then I will go stay in New Hampshire, I'll be an individual contributor. We'll forget we ever had this conversation. And then I also worked on a compensation plan that if I did achieve that 20% growth year over year growth, that I would essentially be elevated to a leadership position and get everything I wanted. So the TLDR is that it all worked out. I grew the business 46% And ended up running a global team in five countries 15 people, and we grew that business from at When I started with that book a business was under $2 million. In three years, it was $38 million. So it ended up being a pretty good move,
Michael Kithcart:I would say, I would say, and so what did you love about that? process? And because it's very different, and we, you know, we know that not every salesperson is meant to be a sales leader, and all of that, but you there was something about that opportunity that propelled you or, you know, made you actually want to provide an offer and take a risk on on whether or not you're going to be able to achieve the results. So why did you want to lead people?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, I mean, there's a great saying by Howard Thurman, which goes along the lines of don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive and go do that, because the world needs more people who have come alive. And so I realized what makes me come alive is growing things. It's been true of growing my children, it's true, bro, my kittens to cats drive me crazy. Like cats and kittens, actually, both, but. But certainly, you know, growing businesses and growing people is at the heart of everything I love to do. So as a sales leader, I really looked at that as an opportunity to develop people and to coach and mentor. And it's where I realized that I actually don't like being a manager in to this day, it's the reason why I don't have direct reports. And one of the reasons why I decided to shift my business and take are different kinds of risk in my business, it's, you know, I because to me, it's like you manage tasks, and you coach and lead people, and I want to work with the people and help the people grow. So that's really what makes it the most rewarding. And I would say every risk I've ever taken in my life has been about seeking that opportunity to get that, that alive feeling of growing something out of almost nothing. You know, whether, you know, I've led startup businesses where we went from zero to $10 million, in three years three, writing my book, you know, was a blank page and the idea of growing an idea, creating something that is what makes me come alive.
Michael Kithcart:And that makes like, so Gee, why did you become a sales trainer, because you could actually work with the people the whole time, right?
Charlene DeCesare:As a sales trainer now. So in January, I had my own business for nine years as a trade, like a freelance trainer, essentially, in a coach and speaker and all of that. But in January, I took this full time role, because I get to do all the fun stuff, without having to worry about, you know, marketing, or bookkeeping, or the IRS or like anything that I don't want to deal with, you know, it's really the best of all worlds to, I get to show up every day and teach people and coach people, and, you know, seek new ideas. And also ran group is a growing business too. So I do get to be part of that growth, you know, watching a team grow getting to be part of all the fun that goes along with that.
Michael Kithcart:What do you see are some shifting trends, it with sales, since the rain group is also a research based company too. Right? So what's evolving?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah, I think the biggest thing is a couple of big trends. One, of course, is virtual, virtual selling is here to stay. There's a lot of research behind that. And a lot of businesses, I think you had mentioned pharmaceutical sales. You know, there's a lot of businesses where people are really used to being in the field and being face to face. And we're sort of just waiting for that to come back. And it is back to a large extent in many industries. And also what buyers are telling us that the majority prefer a virtual environment over the in person sales visit. And so that might mean more FaceTiming, emailing zoom calls, staying connected with insights and ideas over email or LinkedIn. And then yeah, face to face, here and there. But there's a lot of efficiencies that have been gained in the virtual selling environment. So that's big. And then the second is really this alignment to consultative selling, and having better conversations where you're truly adding value to the conversation, not just trying to sell a solution. And then finally, the other big trend is that, especially for companies that it's not really about so much about the solution or the company, it's really down to the individual seller, in terms of how they build value in their approach and in the relationship that they build. So in a way a lot of the stuff that I was doing 20 years ago, which again, I wasn't even that great at it back then. But now that is the way you know that you'll be more the most successful is to be a conversationalist to care about people be genuinely curious. and let the selling come, you know as it comes and be diligent about moving everything forward one step at a time, but going one step at a time, and then knowing when to have the confidence to wrap it up and get the sale done. Because it can't drag on forever. But if you really create the right momentum, that will naturally happen. But that consultative approach, even in what could be a commodity business, is really the path of the future right now.
Michael Kithcart:That's great. Are you finding that companies are starting to invest more in preparing their sales teams for success?
Charlene DeCesare:I think the good ones are, you know, I think, you know, it's, there's an investment hopefully, in people because of the talent shortage that we see right now. And the quote unquote, war on talent right? Now, the great resignation, whenever a news article you're reading, the companies are realizing that these, it's always been true, it just now, it's really worth investing in keeping people more than ever. And so one of the ways you do that is to help teach them new skills also help them feel like they do have some professional development, and even whether they're great, and it's, you know, keeping them engaged, or maybe some people have potential and just need that little bit of help to get them to be where they are capable of being
Michael Kithcart:communication is a is a big piece of that building the rapport, the relationship, and really having a mutual exchange. It's a big part of business. And there's lots of room for error, right? You think I can say from personal experience, I've done it, I've witnessed it. And also, when it's been beautiful, right? You know, and it has all been in alignment. But you wrote a book specifically about writing effective emails, because that in particular feels like a place where it's so easy for communication to break down. So what inspired you to actually write a whole book
Charlene DeCesare:about it? So actually, I mean, I've been blogging for about 10 years. I love to write in my, in my DNA, you know? So I had a blog where I was just writing kind of funny, and I think I'm hilarious, I don't know, but kind of funny, little snippets, you know, on emails I actually received, and I would just look at these emails like, hey, you know, like, what is happening? So I would talk about, like, why the email was so bad, and then like, what they could have done instead. And the name of it was, or the title was, like, this is where sales emails come to die, right? So they became the email cemetery. Fun fact, it's not the email graveyard, because a graveyard is associated with a church. Cemetery is agnostic. So if anybody's wondering why I didn't name it, the email graveyard that isn't denominational. But yeah, so it just was a blog that I had. And then I met a publisher who, you know, we were talking and I said, I've always wanted to publish a book, I have like three mostly written books in the background that have never been published. And somehow this, he saw this idea, it's like this, you should do this. This is so marketable, particularly since my goal at the time was to get more speaking gigs, actually. And it was true. Once I got the book done, I've done a lot of speaking on this topic, and people will have a good time with it. It's a encapsulated, essentially nine personas of what not to do, like the egomaniac, you know that, making it all about us, which is the number one mistake that people make the apologize or the corny cornball, the order taker and so forth.
Michael Kithcart:Okay, what should emails be about and what should they not?
Charlene DeCesare:So I'm going to make to make this this is actually a very easy answer. It's not about you, if you're the seller, it's about your it's about your buyer about your prospect, especially the way you open the email, you know, it really has to have that hook that trigger event, that thing you know about them or that person you know, in common, you know, get their attention and regroup kind of the value proposition three legged stool is you have to resonate first and then differentiate and then substantiate, and that resonance comes from talking about the other person is speaking to them, not about yourself. So that is absolutely the key to and actually to all great sales conversations as well. It's not about you. Yes.
Michael Kithcart:And so help me understand. Because I feel like I get a lot of you emails that are they started along the lines of I know you're so busy. And I'm just checking in. I'm just checking back on that email that I sent you before. And again, these are just like, clearly they know nothing. Yeah, they're just mass. But what is that? Why? Where did that come from? And how can we destroy it?
Charlene DeCesare:Yeah. So and actually, you know what, out of the all the things that you've the examples you just had, you know, something that's like, no doubt, you're very busy, you know, writing your charitable organization that does that. I'm especially impressed by how you so if they start with talking about you, honestly, like, I'm not mad about that, if it starts with my biggest pet peeve. And I've gotten a lot of grief about this on my tick tock videos, which by the way at Charlene ignites on tick tock is when people start their emails with Hi, my name is and I just wanted to say, Okay, first of all, take a deep breath, very riled up. First of all, your name is already two places on the email, you don't need to tell me your name. Second of all, whenever somebody says, I just wanted to the eye and anytime an email starts with the letter I, and again, to be helpful here, easy, best way to change all of your emails is to start editing out those ego words. I, me my I wanted to I would love to, because the AI says, Hey, this is about me right now. Hello, I'm over here, I want to sell you something, you know, and you're sort of counting on somebody else to care. And then the just is what we call a kneecap word in jest is, you know, as I say that your your message will betray your mindset. Just as a mindset tell that says, I'm not confident about this. I feel bad that I'm reaching out to you right now. I'm going to shrink back just a little bit, because I know this is not going to go well.
Michael Kithcart:So I'm so busted on that one.
Charlene DeCesare:Oh, yeah. Yes. Just like that. So what I want everybody when you have rerigged. So I like to give these tips. So get rid of the word I you know, or make it about them. How can you reposition it, so it's about them. And every time you go to write the word just I want you to imagine that you're about to get slapped in the face. Because like the just word, that word justice, like your rights, like shrinking back, right, I know this is audio, but hopefully you get the like feeling of like, like, oh, no, like, don't get me just
Michael Kithcart:you saying that just signals that you're not confident pisses me off. I am never using that
Charlene DeCesare:word hashtag Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. And then the other. The other thing is, again, it's it's about you know, being so thoughtful The thing about emails is we get way too many of them. So in every word, every bit of attention you're trying to get from the your recipient is so precious and valuable. So I say this out of love, because I don't want people to waste their words. And so if they're saying hi, I just And then like I just wanted to say okay, we I know you want it to because you're doing it. So, you know, there's a lot of that, like, let me tell you the inner workings and motivations of this behind the scenes of the email. And again, that comes from a place of insecurity. And it comes from advisors, not feeling that you have enough value, or not internalize or articulating your value that just say what it is, you know, so instead of I just wanted to invite you to this webinar, I just wanted to see if you might be interested in my podcast, it's like, hey, you know, as a, as a growing entrepreneur, I noticed that you posted your great results from last year, you are likely trying to reach a wider audience, or you might find value in reaching a wider audience, would you consider being on my podcast? That's it? Right? So most of the editing that I do with emails, which to be clear, I'm not asking for anybody to hire me to edit their emails. Because I will sometimes get a lot of, can I hire you to edit all my emails? You know, in the coaching process, and when I help people, most of the time, we're just deleting words, we're deleting words they don't need and for example, when I tell people don't open with my name is and they say, Well, what should I say instead? I say nothing. Just don't read it and just start you know. So it really is about being judicious and intentional with with those words,
Michael Kithcart:and I want to go back to what you said before when I said how can we get rid of these just blanket emails that say things that I always find are offensive. And you said you don't mind when they say Surely you're busy, you know running your organization XYZ, blah, blah, blah. The distinction I realized out of the way you said it is that and what triggers me is that there's nothing that states at all that they know one thing about who I am or what I do,
Charlene DeCesare:right? You that's the absolute critical piece is show them, you know them. So for example, I don't know about you, but I get three emails a day telling me how impressive my profile is. And every now and then I get a little snarky, and I write back and I'm like, so what do you think is impressive? Tell me more, you know, because I know, they haven't even looked at my profile. They just, you know, you sent it to all the girls. So yeah, so it's if you find something impressive about someone say, you know, I'm so impressed by the work you're doing with XYZ organization, you know, the cat foster society, it speaks to me, because I also foster cats. Um, you know, and then I'm curious. So here's one eye phrase that I think is amazing. And actually science agrees is I'm curious. I'm curious. So open with something about them, show them you know them, and then be genuinely curious and ask an intelligent question that is about really wanting to understand them better. And, and again, honors the stage of the conversation you're at. So for example, if you have something to sell to, I get, I just got one today for, for marketing, somebody, somebody wants to offer me marketing services to help me get more clients. Maybe the first question is, I'm curious, are you in? Are you looking for more clients? Not not? I'm curious. What are you looking for? When you're hiring a marketing agency? It's like, Well, I'm not hiring a marketing agency, because I have a full time job. I'm not looking for my clients, you know, but just think about, like, what is the first question you need to ask? What's that entry in the door, and what could you create as a point of conversation that will resonate with them, and save the selling for later, because it may not be a good fit for you either. And that's the other piece of this. Sometimes we get ourselves so riled up about trying to be the perfect person for someone else, that we forget that they have to be right for us, as well. I tell my kids this all the time, I'm like, if you ever want to find the best partner, make sure that you find that, you know, you find the right person for you, and that you're also the right person for them, you have to have both sides, there'll be people that are gonna love you that think you're the best, you're not gonna be that into them, you're under no obligation to embark in a relationship with them. But some people get so overwhelmed by this idea of trying to win others over that they forget that and that it's a mutually, you know, beneficial relationship that you're trying to get to. And sometimes just having that attitude, you'll show up in the way that you prospect, for example, in a much better light. So for example, on an email, a call to action, instead of saying, let's meet, and then I can tell you, like how I can help you or we could talk about how we might partner together. Maybe just say, you know, let's meet and, you know, we'll talk about this, we'll talk about that, you know, talk about you share some stuff about me, and then we'll mutually decide on next steps, if any. That's it. It's my one of my favorite closing lines, by the way, mutually decide on next steps, if any, take the pressure off. See what happens mutually says has to be good for me too. And that usually works. Yes. Oh,
Michael Kithcart:great tips.
Charlene DeCesare:You tell I get excited about this. I go on, and I know you're passionate about it. Excuse me, we only have 30 seconds.
Michael Kithcart:No, it's fine. What I appreciate is that you're giving really practical things anybody could be listening right now. And you just helped improve all have our email game. So thank you for for that. And you also created sales affirmation cards, I want to hear about this, like, what makes them different sales affirmation cards?
Charlene DeCesare:Well, it's really I think the thing that I've sort of, maybe battled with and then embraced in my career is trying to reconcile this ambition, this financial ambition and this quest to really achieve a level of prosperity financially and to provide for my family and myself. And, you know, just based on the way I was brought up and whatnot, you know, there's definitely room to vilify money and to think of sales as a bad thing and all of that, so I've embraced, like, I'm going to do certain things that sales to make money. And also, I want to embrace that sort of spiritual side of me or that side of me that does believe that the best is yet to come that the universe is working on my behalf. So long answer short, it's sorted to balance the sales training side with what my husband would call the woowoo side. Oh, yeah. The woowoo Oh, yeah, but you know what the reality is, it all does work together. And if you have anyone, you know, in the world of professional development that studies, millionaire mindset and whatnot, it is very much a mental game and being able to accept, for example, that when you say, you know, abundance is my natural state of being, or I'm attracting, you know, the perfect clients, to be able to believe it and not feel guilty about it, you know, and to feel that that's something that you know, you want and deserve and can have and will have. And so the idea behind the cars was just to give people like these one statement, things that they could say, I'm a big fan of affirmations and sort of daily brain programming around creating what I want in my life. I mean, this is even before like, the secret or law of attraction, but I guess it's kind of in that vein, the way I describe the sales success affirmation cards is, it's the intersection between affirmation, and action. So you might have like, one of the cards that I have in front of me says, I lead conversations with curiosity and caring, like I believe, so I would just, I might just pick that card in my seven to lead my conversations with curiosity and caring. And now throughout my days, I'm having conversations and remind me to ask more questions, to take the lead, to have love in my heart, you know, so it kind of reminds me of that. There's also one that says all of my actions support my dreams, you know, so it's like, okay, like, I can dream and want things and take action. There's another one that's, you know, I wanted I mentioned before, abundance is my natural state of being I accept it now. Asking for business and closing deals comes easily to me. Yes. And it's just sort of repeating these things to yourself. So some of them genuinely might be a tip like, Oh, I didn't know I supposed to do that. Like I always get the next meeting while I'm meeting. That is my soapbox. That is my sales soapbox. If and this is true for dating, for any time, teenagers, if you ever want to see them again, while you have them in front of in front of you, you secure the next time they're going to be in front of you. Right? Right. So that's sort of the idea behind the cards is to give people potentially a daily, like they do a daily draw, I actually have a blog with like 15 ways to use them. Great in meetings to sort of talk about best practices or blockers, you can use it in a one to one meeting, you know, what might be holding you back? Do you believe this? Do you not believe it? Are you doing this not doing it? So kind of like a conversation starter? Either maybe with yourself? Or with a team or with an officer? Yeah, whatever. Yeah, it works.
Michael Kithcart:Now I can see lots of uses for that. You're active on social. In the beginning, I said that you're known as Charlene ignites. So how can people find you? What are some of the different ways because you have so much to offer? You said blogs, you have cards? Do you have books? Like come on Charlene, how can we? How can we keep learning from you?
Charlene DeCesare:Well, I will say if there are people that are in their early phases of like building their brand, taking that risk of putting themselves out there, the best advice, maybe not the very best, but like very good advice that I got was to come up with my brand that I could have is my URL for my website, and my hashtag for every social media platform. And then if you Google it, you there's different various sites where you can search to see if something's available. So I tried lots of combinations. You know, my tagline when I started was an Inspire ignite illuminate. So I tried different combinations Charlene ignites, was free on every social media platform, and the URL. So that became my sort of moniker I guess. So as a result, I'm very easy to find I'm the only Charleen ignites on the internet because I own it lately. I will say I'm the most active on Tik Tok and LinkedIn, I hate to disappoint anybody, I don't dance. I don't Wagle I don't do any of like the what people probably think of tick tock as I do sales tips, sometimes cat videos, and then also LinkedIn. I'll share some things on LinkedIn. I really enjoy connecting with people on LinkedIn. I welcome anyone to send me a LinkedIn connection request I always accept unless you know it's like a fake person or something. Bill Gates has tried to friend me like seven times, and I'm pretty sure it's not him. And yeah, I don't do too much Facebook these days, because my business goals have changed. Sometimes I go on Twitter. If anybody wants to exchange Wordle results. I'm happy to do that. So yeah, but that's great. Well, thankfully LinkedIn I'm gonna say if I had to pick one place people want to kind of find me LinkedIn would be it. And it's the LinkedIn URL slash Charlene ignites.
Michael Kithcart:Okay. I love that and I can't leave without asking you. What are you A champion of
Charlene DeCesare:oh, I'm a champion of curiosity. I'm a champion. Just be curious, be interested in other people, instead of trying to be interesting. How's that?
Michael Kithcart:Yes, that's that's a great way to end. So thank you so much, Charlene. I've learned a lot today. And I know our listeners will too. So appreciate you being a guest. My pleasure, thank you so much. Hey, before you go, I want to share something with you that is really kind of near and dear to my heart. It is winning your way for senior leaders. Now. This is something that's been a like a longtime vision dream for me and I am putting it into motion it is starting in May. What it is, is, it's for women who are in mid to upper level management specifically, these are women who have been leading teams for years and are either not getting any professional development or what's being offered doesn't match the level of leader that they want to be. They're often sandwiched between the C suite who gets executive leadership support. And frontline managers who get first time manager cohort training. These are busy senior management, women, and they have different challenges, needs and career goals. And winning your way for senior leaders provides that advanced leadership development experience that they've been looking for. So you might just be that person. If you are a woman in senior management, check out the website at Michael W kithcart.com. There's an application process. It's for 12 women who will go through a peer group monthly for a year annual program. It's like nothing that you've ever gone through before. Because this is creating leadership transformation from the inside out. Person monthly as a peer group, you have one on one coaching throughout the year. It supports a discovery of learning, elevating leadership effectiveness, and designing what success looks like, looks like for you so that you're winning your way in your whole life. Would you hold us up? This opportunity begins on May 11. Again, it's limited to 12 senior leaders committed to reaching a new level of growth for themselves and for others. It's not a networking group. This is full contact. We're going deep here. So if you're interested in finding out more with Michael studied kithcart.com