AI Will Not Go Back In The Bottle

We take on AI as the newest force shaping daily life, from convenience and creativity to surveillance and fear. With journalist and author Mark Jacobson, we connect today’s AI panic to Bill Cooper’s legacy and ask who really benefits when the machines learn everything.
• our first-hand AI habits and why it feels seductive
• Bill Cooper’s cultural impact and why paranoia sells
• prison, institutions, and the mindset of constant threat
• why targeted ads make people feel watched
• saying please to ChatGPT and what that reveals
• AI in school, writing, and the problem of fake work
• automation, middle-class risk, and the data center reality
• the core question of ownership, control, and who profits
• early internet anonymity and how culture changed
• prediction markets, betting on anything, and the dark mirror
Be sure to look up the sky because you never know what you might see.

Transcript

Welcome To U.S. Phenomenon

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to U.S. Phenomenon, where possibilities are endless. Put down those sample headlines. It's time to expand your mind and question what if. From paranormal activity to UFOs, Bigfoot signings, and unsolved mysteries. This is U.S. Phenomenon.

Mario 0:18

From the Pacific Northwest in the shadow of the 1962 World's Fair, the space, you know, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whatever the case might be for you, this is US Phenomenon.

Two Part AI Series Begins

Mario 0:28

I am your host, Mario Makagna, and tonight we start a two-point, a two-part series about AI. Are you ready for it? Do you fear it? A full discussion about AI and where it's taking us. The questions, why are we using it as much as we are nowadays? Our guest tonight is no stranger to this show. Mark Jacobson, a longtime New York journalist, author of Pale Horse Rider, the biography of Milton William Cooper of Behold the Pale Horse. Jacobson's also wrote novels like Conjuro, the novel-telling uh Godzilla story from the monsters point of view, American Gangster, and the Lampshade. Our guest is no stranger to this show. We're gonna go and do a full breakdown of what our thoughts of Bill Cooper's point of view on this. It is my pleasure to welcome back to US Phenomenon, Mark Jacobson.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Hey Mario, how are you?

Mario 1:35

Well, you know, a little rusty, you know, it's it's been a summer. A little summer.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Well, you need a little DD of WD 40.

Mario 1:43

Maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I use WD 40 as kind of like a I put it in my ear, you know, and then I I shake my head around and um it's just much better.

Mario 1:54

You know. I figured I wanted to have you and Michael Parker on at the same time. I think we were just talking about this off air. Um, I wanted to have you both on. Michael was traveling, and I thought this would be I love Mike.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

He's a man, he's mad at me because I don't know that he's mad.

Mario 2:09

I

AI Feels Like An Evolutionary Leap

Mario 2:10

think I don't know that that that's the case. Um but let's go back to what we were just briefly talking about in regards to AI. I know I've been using it. You've you said you were just using it. Do we feel it I use it?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I use it a fair amount, I gotta say. I mean, I mean, I don't I'm like look, you should just ask me because I mean this subject to me is the subject at the moment, you know, right? There's all kinds of stuff happening, but you know, you're in a situation where like remember the scene in 2001, you know, with the baby, you know, and all this stuff like that. And and the idea was that like, you know, human beings were maybe like gonna make the ev the evolutionary step to something else, you know. Right. And I think that's what kind of was happening with AI. I mean, depending on what how you feel about evolution, you know. I personally am a believer in evolution. I hate to tell you, but I am so like um but but the um you know, I I think that you've got all these science fiction things that have been people have been thinking about AI for a long, long time, and now it's here, you know, so it's like what are you gonna do about it? So and uh and I think it's just gonna get more and more here because um, you know, these things change all the time. I've just been using it right in a month. In a month, I've seen like a typical commercial application like Chat GPG. It's already

Who Bill Cooper Was

SPEAKER_01 3:45

different, you know. It's like you know, it's evolving, you know.

Mario 3:48

So it is very much evolving. If and and the rabbit hole I kind of want to go down is I know that you, you know, you did the book. What and we you know we've talked about this multiple times of what what really drew you to um you know Bill Cooper back in the day. I mean, he was a phenomenon, and there was no social media back in those days. I mean he became an American uh uh you know phenomenon before there and became mainstream, you know, just from his book, Behold the Pale Horse. And you know, when you read that book, you when you read that book.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Has anybody ever read that book?

Mario 4:25

I mean, you you kind of yeah, you can sum through it again. When I went through that, I know that I was reading it pretty heavily in the 2000s, just before 9-11, or right right around that time. Oh my god, then 9-11 happens. Oh, I'm like terrified. I'm thinking, oh, this is it. The the streets are gonna be shut down, I'm gonna have to report to our local post office, that kind of thing. And in in that book, he basically is explaining a lot of a lot of things. And I think what that you've talked about, and I think we've we you know we've touched about um in previous shows, for those who have no clue who uh you know who Bill Cooper is. In a in in a in a yeah, I mean give give you want me to explain who he is?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, yeah, that'd be that'd be good. Um well William Cooper is um is a guy who um I haven't thought about him recently, I gotta say. I mean, once you finish a book, which is already I finished that book like almost ten years ago, so I mean I've been thinking about William Cooper, but you know, he stays in the picture just because a lot of people came up listening to him, you know, and now you're here in this particular world, and if you are a Bill Cooper fan, and um you do see certain similarities with what he was talking about, and some certain things that he was totally wrong about, I gotta say. But um, you know, he was a guy who was um he was a radio talk show host for the most part. That's really what he's famous for. But most it's very interesting. All the black people that I've talked to who know who William Cooper is, uh is because of the book, uh Behold the Pale Horse. And all the white people this is not a hundred percent, but I'm just noticed this over the years. Sure. They're they all know him from the radio show Hour of the Time. I guess I I guess that's just the way it was at that time. But um it's kind of fascinating which I was just thinking about him uh in response to the fun. You know what the five percenters are?

Mario 6:43

Uh those are the explain to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

I I I I I I mean, in other words, like, you know, one of the one of the major people that enjoyed this book Behold a Palehorse, which is one of the reasons that I became interested in it, is because it was the most one of the two or three most read books in the New York State prison system. And the kind of people who were in the New York State prison system at the time were majority black people because they're the ones that get sent to prison for the most part. So um and a lot of them began reading this book because uh I think that Bill Cooper had this kind of he had a kind of seeing eye dog kind of like divining rod for the paranoid take on anything, you know.

Mario 7:33

And it's interesting you say that and you talk about that. Um and I think in the book it does talk about the the evolution of uh of a a class or a race uh being uh almost if I remember correctly in the book, it talked about how there are more predominantly people once you got a once you were in the system, you became a part of the system. It was hard to get out of that that cycle of life, if if if I remember correctly in that book.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Were you talking about the prison system or just the system in general?

Mario 8:07

The system in in regards to the prison system going in and out of prison or jail.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Well, I mean a prison, I mean I look, I mean you're in prison, but you you know, most people that are in prison are guilty, you know. I mean, I don't care what everybody says. I mean, they did something, right? So I mean there are people in prison who didn't do anything, and I'm glad they get exonerated or stuff like that. But um, you know, but it's it's like you're in prison, you're a part of this municipal this this kind of institutionalized thing, which is you know, most things are institution. You go to work, you know, you sit in a cubicle, you're part of an institution, you know. Sure. But this is really being part of an institution in the sense that you don't really have any free will. They're gonna tell you when when to get up, when to go to sleep, what you're gonna have. You're not gonna you're not gonna see a big menu, you're gonna get they're gonna eat the food that you they give you. Um and um that kind of produces a certain kind of mindset, um, and you're always you're always afraid. You're in prison unless you happen to be a certain kind of person, you're always nervous that something worse is gonna happen to you than happened the day before. So, in other words, you have no real feeling that life is gonna get better. It's like gonna stay the same. That's the best you could hope for, though it's gonna stay the same, but it could get worse, you know. So, and I think that that mirrors in some way the society that we've been able to develop, uh especially, I mean, I'm I don't know much more about other countries, but you know, as an American, I see that uh people tend to be uh there are not that many people that really feel that tomorrow's gonna be better than yesterday. That's what all that all that populist Trump stubbs of make America great again, is because like the past was better than than the pres the present or the future. So that's a kind of paranoid mount mindset. And Bill Cooper played into that perfectly. I mean, partially because he really believed he was a legitimate person. He wasn't a guy on the radio milking this sentiment sentiment. That's the reason why he is remembered because he was a he was a legitimate person who actually felt the way his audience really did. I mean, he wasn't, you know. He he yeah, he was he was an honest, he was honest. I mean, he he told all kinds of fibs and lies and all kinds of stuff like that. And I'm sure his fans are probably I'd be getting nasty letters since that book came out about how you said the bad things about Bill. But really, I bent over back was to be nice to the guy. But um the th the thing is that um when you've got this society that you're feeling that impending doom is gonna happen at any point, and the only way out of it is like you know, the end of the world. Armageddon, so like you know, we can go back to the Garden of Eden or whatever, which was really the whole shtick behind QAnon, I think. Right. The whole QAnon thing was like we gotta get past these tribulations so we can go back to the Garden of Eden. Now and a lot of religions are based on that.

Mario 11:20

So what was interesting about QAnon, and I you know, I it didn't hit me until I started watching what a lot of their base or their language of what they were projecting or uh portraying out in the universe or just out there. I was like, wait, where have I heard this before? But it to me it felt like they were getting this from the book. And when I say the book, I'm talking about behold the pale horse.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

I felt like a little bit of more from the book of Revelation.

Mario 11:52

Well, I mean, some of that, sure, from the book of Revelation.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

That is true. So, I mean, you know, that's kind of the mentality you're dealing with here. And uh Bill Cooper was living in the realm of the book of Revelation, like you know, bad things are gonna happen, and then like you know, if you play your cards right or you're a true believer one way or another, you're gonna end up on the other side of it, and you're gonna be blessed to begin your life again, you know. But that's really pretty. I mean, the more I get away from that thing, I realize how it's not standard, it's just kind of typical, it's just kind of the way human beings think, you know, they they think like things are bad, but you know, I hope that one day they'll get better. But the difference between now and most of human history is I think that you've got an enormous amount of people

Would Cooper Trust AI

SPEAKER_01 12:45

that feel it's not going to get better.

Mario 12:47

With and with with his paranoia of um, you know, not trusting everybody, if if William Cooper was still alive, and you know, for for those that don't know, we'll we'll we'll skip all the that piece. I mean, you can look that up. But we if he was still alive, do you believe from what you know and what I know of, I ask you this, but do you think he would trust AI?

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Um that's a good question, I guess. Um I mean that's something to think about. I would say AI would be potentially it depends on what you're seeing that Bill Cooper is like from another era completely. The way he the way he found out most of that material I mean, the thing that's interesting about Bill Cooper in a certain kind of way. I mean, one of the things about that the one of the reasons that drew me to him as as a character to write a book about, I mean as a as a person, but you know, he's really a character in a book, is that like his entire sensibility would have been formed formed before the internet was invented. So therefore, you've got this guy who's becoming, you know, he he's a pre-internet person. So I think that the way people think now and the way they interact and all this kind of stuff is post-internet. I mean, you know not post, but we're living in this kind of period of change. Sure. So he had he was like a capsule con like a still picture of the mindset of somebody with this kind of paranoid cosmos, cosmos, and you know, and a researcher kind of guy um who lived before the internet. And there's some interesting stuff. If you listen to his, I mean, you can listen to anything. He's talking all the time, and there's like something like 2,000 episodes, which you can get online of like his show, and he's just rambling on, you know, and sometimes he says some interesting stuff and sometimes not. But one of the things I found fascinating is when he would talk about how he did his research, you know, that I would say of all the things that Bill Cooper ever said, the one that's caught on the most is do your own research. Now, how many times do you hear that phrase, like, you know, in a week? People always say it, do your own research, or I did my own research. Right. And you know, so in other words, that this is but that people don't know that that came from Bill Cooper, you know, and I mean the word sheeple is that might have been out there before, but he's the one that popularizes. So he has a lot of influence that people are not aware of that kind of comes into the culture. Like, for instance, just as a as a matter of fact, I mean, when you hear people say drink the Kool-Aid, how many of those people know that that phrase comes from Jim Jones and and getting drinking the Kool-Aid in Jonestown? I would say, you know, a quarter, a tenth? I mean, you know, how many out of a hundred people know where that comes from? Yet they say it all the time because it's just part of the language. So uh and Cooper was like that because he was kind of synonymous at a point of time, you know, in that in the 1990s period, 19 late 1980s, 1990s, when it was really on the edge of the internet world, when it's just beginning to come along. And um he still had this kind of like mentality that been that had been really kind of formulated partially during the Vietnam War, you know. Right. So uh because he was a soldier in the Vietnam War. So you get all that kind of like you know, lack of freedom idea that like, well, I'm gonna soldier, I'm gonna be a soldier, I'm gonna go over there and then as soon as you get there, people they're shooting at each other for real, and people getting killed and all kinds of stuff like that. And you go, like, whoa, what's this all about? So um, you know, the uh so he was like somebody who was living in this PTSD world. In fact, he had a PTSD, and there are I founded records, you know, two different occasions he was hospitalized for PTSD at the at the VA. You know, it's just it makes sense. I mean, you know, God, I mean reading reading that book is enough to give you a PTSD.

Mario 17:11

That book has a lot of uh has a lot in that book that um I don't know that it it it ch it forever changed me in a in ways that I uh never

Surveillance Ads And The New Normal

Mario 17:20

thought I could be that paranoid um in my life.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Well, I mean so in other words, like so AI, which jumped back to AI sure. So I mean the thing is that AI is one of the great paranoia I mean we just talk about let's just follow the paranoid trail here. Yeah you know um it's one of the I mean I I can't think of anything else that would be more paranoia inducing than believing that um your television is listening to you, which it is, right? Of course. Every time it how many times have you have you uh been talking about something in the car and then all of a sudden the ad comes in on your Instagram or something like that? It happens all the time, right? You know it's true.

Mario 18:02

It's still like you know I mean we're just talking about Vegas. It's like okay, we're gonna well let's stay at Sahara, we're gonna go Folingo. All of a sudden I'm getting all these ads for Sahara.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I'm like, wow, wow, it looks great. I should go Sahara. But it's a fact of life, sure. You know, it's something that it's not even new anymore. So now it's it's just the way life is. So um, you know, and um how how are you gonna be able to uh to adapt to that? You know, just sort of like the idea of like some people don't care. I mean, a lot of people don't care, they give out their email address all the time. You know, some people are like very upset about that, you know. Um I take I take the attitude, well, they're gonna find out anyhow, so why would I be a maniac to try to cover things up they already know, anyhow? So, you know, it becomes one of these kind of um like Bill Cooper, one of the major uh and this really goes on connects to now. I mean, the definition of the word they just they, you know, you okay they're doing this. Well, if they want it, you know, maybe maybe the US will win the cup game, you know. I mean, it's like you know, it just everything is uh and when you gotta run around like Trump, you know, like who is constantly you know playing upon this this kind of thing, you know, like did he really call that guy up and tell him to like uh put the put our our extra striker in there? I doubt it. Yeah, I I don't know. I mean, you know, they order him to do it. I mean, well, why not? I mean that they already give there's plenty of evidence around that the guy would listen to what Trump said if they gave him the Peace Prize, the the FIFA Peace Prize. I mean, you know, this is worth following.

Mario 19:45

So, like, you know when I thought about it, I was like, did he really? Or was it just him trying to get a uh uh you know, tie himself to FIFA and the World Cup?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

But he already is he already he already fighting FIFA but to stay relevant. You tell me he's not getting a piece of that action? I mean that the guy's whole thing is getting a piece of the action. So there you go. So I don't want to go off on that. Right. But I mean the thing the thing about it is with AI, when you feel that um some there's some other intelligence that's always looking over your shoulder that like knows more about you than you know about it. I mean, there's you know, I could go on and on and on about the things that make people uneasy. They don't like it, you know. On the other hand, you're gonna be there's no way to get a around it. You know, um now like if I look up something on the internet, I mean, uh I'll you got the choice of looking for the usual Wikipedia stuff or the AI version of it, right? And the way the way it works out, AI's on top of there. And then and you might you might be completely against AI and see this is I'm not gonna have anything to do with this kind of stuff. But you know, are you gonna if the if the thing you're looking for is at the top of the page, you're not gonna keep on scrolling, man. Believe me. You know, you're just gonna take the thing you want and you're gonna plug it in there.

Mario 21:14

Fine, I'll I'll just I'll go with the link. Yeah. No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, you go with the link. Well, I'm not I'm not making it, I'm not taking a value judgment on it. I just think of this the way people act, you know.

Mario 21:24

I no, I I think you're uh it's it's the convenience, I think, the of what uh modern world that we live in. It's about oh, it's right there, boom. Versus, you know, going and you know, moving forward. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Convenience is though convenience has been the crack of the modern world, you know, since since the invention of Amazon.com. You know, but I mean, so like um, you know, you got this kind of thing, and then so you know, you gotta look, I think it's everybody I think people have this kind of attitude that like, you know, is it

Building A Relationship With AI

SPEAKER_01 21:55

it it's more like a personal thing, like you're gonna it's it's it's an entity, right? So you're going to begin to um make your personal relationship with this thing. Now there's there's always gonna be these crazy people that fall in love with the machine, you know, something like that. Like I had a big fight with my wife the other day. Not a fight, but we had a discussion, right? Sure. So I I'm using the chat GPT to help me do some kind of work. I'm I'm doing a little work, you know, and I I wanted to make a cartoon of something. I wanted to make a cartoon of a of a of a little thing. So that's one thing that it does great, you know. You said I want a cartoon of this, this, and this. And then, like, you know, in two minutes it draws your cartoon. Oh so, so um, and then I she said, Why, you know, I said, I she saw the notes that I was putting in. I said, Could you please do this? And she said, Why are you saying please to a machine? You don't have to say please to a machine. I said, Well, it's common courtesy, isn't it? Just to say please or thank you. And and and she's going, No, it's a machine, you idiot. So, like, and I'm thinking, like, well, maybe she's right, you know, but I mean, what if the machine comes to get you because you're not being, you know, you're not courteous?

Mario 23:02

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

I mean, you know, I mean, these things, these things come up, and it doesn't seem to matter that much, but actually you have to really get used to the idea that when you're having an interaction with this machine on on your laptop, it's it's a new experience. I mean, it really is a different experience. And you're gonna be able to some people are gonna like it, some people are not gonna like it. I mean, I'm not you know, I think it's my f a friend of mine who was a college professor, he is not crazy about it because he's been getting all these papers that people just got from the AI. So um we're talking about what you're supposed to do about this. Right. So um, so we came up with the idea that like, you know, if you have a paper, you're say you're a professor, right? I know I know professors are all bad people, right? But actually I like I have a lot of good professor friends. So um, so like I we said, like, well, maybe what you want to do, if you have a paper that you think is being written by AI, you should make the person stand in front of class in class and answer questions about the topic to see if what they actually know about it, you know. Yeah, that's a great thing. I mean, if AI taught this person about the topic that they were supposed to know about, then I mean I don't see what that's a big complaint, you know? Yeah, you know, on the other hand, if they just handed it in the paper, you know, because they put X, Y, and Z in the in the AI machine and it came back with this, that shouldn't be allowed, right? Sure. I mean, so you well, I don't know. What I'm all I'm trying to get to is that when you have a new thing, new tool, a new tool, it's like when you have a new tool like the automobile, right? The automobile, a new tool. This you you you know takes like two weeks to walk from one place to the other, but you can drive there in a couple of hours. So this is a new this is obviously a new machine. So there's got to be rules to to um to generate about the new machine to make it useful for people, and so and AI is the most complex of all these things, because and the reason why I think it's that way is because look at you looking at look at the last technological leap forward, which really kind of happened in the late 19th century, early 20th century. They invented the car, the airplane, all these different things that people got used to. And um, and basically the airplane, it's things that it's human incapabilities. I mean, you can't fly, so you can go in a plane, you fly fast. You can't you can't walk fast enough, so the car takes you there, you know. But once you start, and that's so you're dealing with the your feet or your you know that kind of stuff, but once you start messing around with the human brain, once you start talking about the human brain and trying to figure out how it works, I mean, uh uh I spent a lot of time thinking about consciousness and how it gets developed. So um, and I can tell you, most of these scientists really have no clue about how it works. The human mentality, how it works. So now you got a machine that's kind of imitating the human brain. You know, it's trying to learning, it's trying to it's yeah, learning. You know, it's like it's learning and it's I mean, there's all these um there are all these models around that are basically negative, like the Terminator. Remember the Terminator? Oh, yeah. Great, great, great movie, right? So like they asked the guy, the chick, uh, what's her name? Sarah Connor, you know, uh Linda Hamilton. She's really sexy in that movie, but she was great. So, like, you know, um, in any event, so she's talking to Michael Bean, who's the human from space, you know, right, who Arnold Arnold, you know, suck him against Arnold. So um, and he kind of explains to her, like, you know, what the world is like where he came from, and she goes, Well, how did it happen? And she goes, I don't he goes, I don't know. The machines, they just got smart or something like that, you know. I mean, and that's basically that's his explanation. He doesn't go into it anymore. And you kind of know exactly what he means because there's gonna always be there's always gonna be a tipping point, right? Like in 2001, the tipping point is when the machine won't let him back into the spacecraft, you know. You know, he's going like, open the pod bay doors, Hal. Open the pot bay, and then he goes, No, Dave, I I really don't think that you're really capable of running this mission, you know. And and then he thinks the look on Keradelee's face when it says that really is a very powerful moment. That he's no longer in control, right?

Mario 27:47

Right. And if we go down those rabbit holes, you know, man versus machine, what what's the tipping point? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Like will the Well that's a good that that that that remains to be seen, I think. Right.

Mario 27:58

Uh you know, are we gonna lose in that realm where yeah, AI is great, it's uh you know, it's great, it's helping me do my drums, or it's helping with me with the podcast, you know, come up with a cover letter of course.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

It's it's very seductive. But but it's there's no doubt about it. Right, it's very seductive.

Mario 28:16

It is, it's a tri it's like that new girlfriend or boyfriend you might have, or new wife. Maybe you got you divorced and you found somebody new. That that's the main to be still main to be seen for myself.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

But um, I wish you look, Mary.

Mario 28:30

Yeah, it's fine, it's fine. Um but you know from a generation, from my generation to your generation, you know, me being in my mid-40s, late 40s.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

I just I'm just turned 78, so I'm I'm way ahead of you. Right. But uh way behind you, depending on how you look. But uh but but what I mean the thing is that like you know, you live through these different periods of like, and that's why I was talking about with Cooper, the pre-internet idea, and um, you know, the there there are all these battles going on about American individualism, you know, whatever that's supposed to be. Sure. And it's it's more difficult to be when you have these gigantic models, like, and I'm not gonna get into anything about social media or any of that kind of stuff like that, but you do have these these kind of models that are difficult to get out of, you know. You you're just gonna be it's it's almost like um a behavioral psychology thing. It's like a like BF Skinner, he would really love the internet, I think, and social media and stuff like that, because you know, it can predict how people are gonna act, you know. Right. And it's like a Skinner box, you know. So like if you know what I'm talking about. So like um, you know, so now you're up to this point where you got this force which is now asserting itself in the society, and there's no way out of it, and they're not putting the thing back in the bottle, that's for sure. I mean, what that what that's one thing that I don't think anybody would argue about. I mean, you can't avoid it. You might hate AI and think it's taking over the world and all kinds of stuff like that, but you're not getting out of this. This is just the way it's gonna be, you know. It's a fact. There's a fact. The earth goes around the sun, right? You know, the sun doesn't go around the earth, and that's and and that's just the way things are, you know. So how you're gonna deal with something like this is a real test for your sis your society, as far as I can see. Um we could talk about it, you know. I I have my own ideas about it.

Mario 30:34

Do you think that your generation uh cares about AI? Do they trust it enough to be like, ah, that's yeah, well that's the that's the uh it's really a case by case basis.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

You know, like for instance, like you know, some like one thing is gonna be.

Mario 30:50

So like your wife. I mean, like your wife, does your wife enjoy AI?

SPEAKER_01 30:56

She's less less she's more um resistant to it than I am. Yeah. I mean, you know, and like I'm supposed to be the big Luddite that doesn't even know how to program his computer and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but I mean, you know, I feel it's helpful for me because um as a writer, I mean, I would I mean, it's really stupid. You know, it's not smart. It's like dealing with it's like how it reminds you you ought to know this. You know what it's like? It's like dealing with a pretty smart teenager.

unknown 31:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

That's what it's like. That's what it's like. If you really try to if you're trying to work something, like for instance, I'm trying to work out this project, right? And it's helping me because I'm asking it, I don't care what it says. I just want to get the pictures that it's gonna draw, right? That's all I care about because I can't draw. I can I can write the stuff, but I can't draw. So I I'm I'm using it to draw the pictures, right? Right. And I mean, I I mean never use the pictures, but it's nice to look at a picture, you know. So, like, you know, you see you're going on and on about this kind of stuff, and and you get into this kind of discussions with the machine, which is like kind of weird, right? You know, so and um and uh so one of the things that it does, which I'm sure anybody that uses it realizes, it tries to it butters you up. Yeah, it's always it's it's it's like oh wonderful idea. I really love it, you know. So finally I got so sick of this. I said, look, you please keep your opinions to yourself, just do what I say, right? And it said, Oh, okay, yeah, uh, you know, I I well, I'll I'll refrain from doing it. But then, you know, the very next time I went on it, it was back to doing it because that short-term memory thing, it doesn't have that.

Mario 32:38

It it really is trying to butter you, it is really trying to appease you, make you feeling to trying to it's trying to lure you in.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah, so you can up your program from $20 to $40 a month. Right. So, you

Jobs Data Centers And Who Benefits

SPEAKER_01 32:50

know. I mean, it's all about it's all about that, I think.

Mario 32:53

Do do you feel like in in the next 15 to 20 years, do you think that uh AI will get rid of like um the middle class?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Do you think there will only be well that's a real that those kind of employment issues and who's gonna get to work in this new society and what are you gonna do with all those excess people? These are huge questions, I think. These are really this is beyond some guy blathering on on Fox News or MSNBC. This is a real problem, you know. Right. This is not a this is this is not beyond politics, you know. So, I mean, because you know, there are more people every day, you know, and and there's less work. So, and and they want to build this gigantic data series thing in your backyard, which is gonna hum really loud and drive you insane. So, you know, um, should you really do the should you should you sign up for that? I mean, that's something that's a very complicated issue, and I think it really may actually turn out to be a good thing because people are gonna have to make up their minds for themselves about how they're gonna treat AI. And like and and they're not gonna live, they're not gonna do one thing or another just because you know uh some newscaster says that this is the way to go. Right. It's gonna it's gonna be a personal thing. I yeah, and people are gonna have to come to their own conclusions about it. And um It has to go somewhere. It might be healthy, might be healthy.

Mario 34:25

It has to these data centers have to go somewhere. Could be in your backyard using using your your electricity and water resources.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah, but they're gonna work, they're gonna work that. I mean, you know, they did I mean I I think they will, you know. But um right. Because you know, uh I think the real main question about AI now at the moment, the one that really is most compelling to me that is very simple, you know. Um who's it it's here, so who runs it? Who owns it? Who who is benefiting from it? It's the old conspiracy question. Who benefits, right? So like you know, it's not the middle class. That's well, I mean the thing is that like, you know, I would say, you know, in the best case scenario, what AI would be um from this kind of point of view of it's the sum product of everything that human beings have ever thought. That would be the that would be the best possible, you know, reason would know everything, right? So if if you want to go with that idea that you know it's gradually building this kind of like you know, gigantic brain thing like they have in the sci-fi movies, you know. Um so why should a person like Sam Altman or a golf like Mark Zuckerberg or one of these kind of people like that have owned it? They can't own it. It is like and and this is something that is gonna be a big challenge for you know these so-called legislators or the people that are in c in government, right? I mean, I mean the idea like the radio you're on radio now. Well, you know, when they invented radio and they invented television, the airwaves were supposed to be free, you know, that was not supposed to be owned by anybody, right? But of course, you know, when William Paley and uh all these other people come along, then all of a sudden, like it's it's all for sale. And then they're selling making selling commercials and stuff like that. And he and you gotta watch that. So the thing with AI, you know, you can turn the TV off, you know, anytime you want, but AI, I don't think you can turn it off. It's gonna be there all the time. Sure. So if it if Mark Zuckerberg or uh Elon Musk, you know, God forbid, owns owns it, you know, like that that that can't be good.

Mario 36:51

So let me ask you this. No, I don't think so. Yeah, I I think that really changed,

Flashback To Early Internet Culture

Mario 36:55

you know, let's let's go back in time. Let's go back in the US Phenomenon Time Machine in the DeLorean, and let's go back to uh not 1985 or nine, you know, uh any of those uh time periods, but let's go back to the 90s when the internet first came out and when it started to uh you know in its infancy stages. Do you recall what it was like? Do you feel like that jump of technology and the AI correlation? Do you do you feel like you had the same kind of opinion? You're like big business and Elon Musk of a world of the those worlds, you know, the well, obviously it would have been like a a prodigy or a Microsoft uh Well, I think you gotta go back, if you really go back and study this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

I mean, the first time that I really ever heard of the concept of the internet as opposed to just you know seeing a science fiction movie or something, was uh probably in the late 1970s. And the people that were pushing it were um the people that put out the whole Earth catalog.

Mario 37:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Remember that remember that? Well, no, because I wasn't born to seven. Coevolution quarterly, these are like post-hippy kind of people who believed in they're the ones that invented the idea of the information highway and all these kind of things that people you know used to say about the internet. So, um, and free information and communication and all these kind of, you know, you know who Buckminster Fuller is? I mean, there are all these kind of utopian idealists that were you know hanging around that were still trying to get to some place where people go feel good about being a human being.

Mario 38:38

Well what's interesting because you when you think about back in those days, you went into these virtual rooms to have conversations over the internet in these chat rooms, uh, you know, AOL chat.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

That doesn't come to I mean, those things were like late, not the virtual bar. Right. You know, you go, I mean in the best case, you go into a bar, coffee shop, you know, you sit down, you have your thing, you know, and there's a couple of a couple of interesting people around, you know, and you start up a conversation, and then like three hours later you leave and you feel like you had a good time, right? Because you know, you you engage with other mentalities, and you know, you had a couple of good disputes and some good agreements, but everybody was a little soused, so they were in a good mood, you know, and um that really went away a lot because you got now you've got all the people like you know, so atomized that they don't even want to go out and go to a bar or anything like that. And even if you do, the music and the loud is so loud that you can't really hear anybody. I mean, I don't know. You know, we used to pick up a girl, you have to go to the bar and pick her up and then have a couple of stupid little lines that now you can, you know, it's all different, obviously.

Mario 39:52

Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's it's an algorithm these days. I mean, everything is an algorithm, uh, right? Dating is is as such, it's it's either you're you're looking, you're on a dating uh application app for the younger kids or the younger adults. Um and but there's um Mark, there's a whole generation that does doesn't un they may be single, like my mom, who doesn't, you know, I don't know where she meets, you know, if she's dating anybody.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Um but do you ever come home and suddenly there's somebody there?

Mario 40:25

Oh, I mean my mom doesn't live with me, but your mom seventy-five? No, my mom is uh I think she'll be 70 soon. So old enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

It's old enough. It's old enough to be embarrassed by being caught in bed with somebody. Right.

Mario 40:41

It's one of those situations where when we talk about the the AI, we'll go back to the AI piece and the whole situation. There's a generation that knows it exists, doesn't use it, which could be uh uh that's not true because I know that my mom's used AI before. She's used chat uh uh multiple times uh because I think I introduced it to her. But there's got to be a generation of of individuals when you talk about the bar scene, people aren't going people aren't meeting people the way in which the world existed back in the day, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:15

I mean, like for instance, like you know, I've seen all this stuff change really, you know, in a very short period of time. I mean, I was a big movie fan, you know, and back in the day, you know, you went to the movie theater and you saw the movie and had a certain kind of feeling about the particular theater that you were going to. Like, I don't like to go to that place or like you know, this one's you know, this one's this one's got a brighter screen. I mean, there was individuality in between even those things, and you can make up your mind about where you wanted to go. Right. And now everything's on television, all it's the same, you know. So, like, you know, even if you're even if you have the criterion collection with all these fancy movies, if they're gonna look pretty much the same because they're they're they're being transmitted by a different kind of delivery system. So, I mean, there's a there's this tendency towards sameness, which I think is just really bumming people out in a lot of ways, because there's only a few ways, there's only a few ways to go. I mean, the choices are really I mean, they might tell you that you got a lot of choice, but really you we know you don't, you know. Yeah, you know, it's like so. I mean, it's like you can choose between these different programs, you know, like these medicines they have on TV, they try to pitch the whole people, you know, you can't they that they tell you the name and nobody can pronounce it, and it's supposed to be choice, but really it's not. You know, so like we know that. So um, you know, I think that AI is it's up in the air about how it's gonna go. It seems to me like we're in a good situation now because finally, after a few different things, you can I think that people that are that are gonna be activist about this kind of stuff um are gonna be uh uh a little more discerning than um than people that are activist about you know the dumb political system or something like that, because this is gonna supersede that. I think it it just will.

Mario 43:14

Do we think that uh AI will be the modern day uh William Cooper to uh spew out you know any crazy I mean well let me let me ask you a question.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Do you think that AI, I mean, like for instance, the the the classic conspiracy thing about AI is is that there are all these algorithms out there, right? You know they're competing just like in any other system, you know the you know, survival of the fittest or you know, any of these kind of systems where like you know, there's eight guys in the office and only seven of them are gonna get rehired next year, and you know, it's gonna be like one of these guys is gonna go, and it could be you, right? So you don't want that. So, like, you know, the the the thing about that is um one second. to say about this. It just you got you got that kind of feeling of like you know you're near the edge. But I think now I think people might be able to like um because it's so radically different that you might sit there and think about it for a moment and not act in a kind of rash kind of like black or white kind of way because mostly because the thing is your head. Yeah you know your head's your head you know and I and what's in your head is a mystery to me. I don't know what's in there. I don't know how it works. You know I just know that I get up in the morning and you know sometimes I'm funny and sometimes I'm boring and you know and sometimes I quick on the uptake and sometimes I'm just dumb you know and I I don't know why it is that these kind of these things happen like that. I mean and it's much more complicated than that obviously so you've got this thing where um you know I don't think

One Algorithm To Rule Them All

SPEAKER_01 45:00

that in any event what I'm talking about I meant to say was like the the the the competing algorithms right sure do you ever see this you ever seen this movie called uh Alphaville? I have not seen that movie it's a fantastic movie you should see it because it's it tells you something about AI. Um and even though the movie was made in 1962 before they ever had any AI. So like um it's that the the scary part about AI to me besides all these other things about them taking the taking the job the metaphysical problem let's say the metaphysical problem is that sooner or later these these algorithms are going to like just because that's the way they work they'll merge into one gigantic algorithm the one gigantic algorithm that's gonna be you know more or less have the party line and it's gonna know when you deviate is like the worst kind of communism or something like that. So like you know so I mean that to me I don't really actually believe in that but I think that that's something that people would fear about AI. You know that's the that's a bad way it could go.

Mario 46:11

In theory it's great that you know I can make uh you know uh a podcast cover you know one minute or ask it a question or help me come up with some new content for the radio show or you know what I mean like in those regards of using the AI technology but and then the other sense is okay for me someone who produces my own show cuts my own show does all that work and I can have AI as my assistant help me think of you know it's a fantastic right I just don't want to be it's a system right well that's the thing it's it's like if if my thought was if art or you know Bill Cooper were still alive it would be interesting to hear their take on the modern day technology. My thoughts that William Cooper would be like I don't trust it something he'd be wrong.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

He can't not trust everything. I mean you know it's just crazy right I mean you know I mean it's like I don't know I mean at the end of the day I have faith in the human species I really do. I'm more of an I'm a humanist as opposed to some other people I you know I don't I don't there's many different ways I think about it but I think that eventually people could figure it out right you know um so uh just to make sure that we don't have to hit the reset button in regards to like in Terminator the movie Terminator whatever whichever one you want to talk about about how a the you know what was it uh Skynet or whatever right is that right Skynet yes Skynet Skynet I mean it was taking over I mean how do you stop well I mean what do you mean are you are you thinking there's gonna be robots walking around I mean it's possible let me let me ask you a question it is possible what is your worst scenario about AI just think of what's your worst scenario so what if they took what's your worst possible fear they took AI and put that in a dro like a a human you know droid or something of that nature like in like in Terminator it it and then moving forward you have this assistant who's at your house cleaning for you and then all of a sudden it just switches. I mean it switches it switches and what is and it and it dominates you and it makes you clean the house makes you when you clean its house I mean what what is it going to do?

Mario 48:46

Are you referring to my my my assistant is now I've been made its bitch is that what you're referring to well I mean you know that's some you know if that was going to happen I wouldn't be happy about it.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

I mean you know but the thing is that you know how likely is that to happen? I mean you know what are you what I'm saying basically is it's an open question. It is an open question. It's an open question right just like open AI it's an open question. So you know I think that depends on what your worldview is sure what's likely to happen right because you don't know what's gonna happen because it's just too complicated to figure it out. You can't live in fear you cannot live in fear because they want you to live in fear because that everything that you read about is like oh the the way it's gonna be terrible weather today. I mean it's the the the temperature in New York was 100 degrees right sure so that there it was like there was no other news all they want to talk about is how hot it was right on the all the news stations and I said I already know it's hot. You know I you know it it gets hot it's a summer it gets hot every year. I don't care maybe it is climate change and you know I believe in that climate change but I mean you know so it's two degrees hotter than it ordinarily would be it's not the end of the world you know and and and and then and I can look at my cell phone and and it says that like by Thursday it's going to be 72 degrees which is perfectly fine right so so you know it depends on if you want to get panicked about every single thing like kind of in the method of um will Bill Cooper when he was drinking as opposed to when he wasn't drinking you know like right right I mean some people that's just the way they act I don't see how that really helps you I mean in in the scope I mean he's an interesting person but acting like I wouldn't want to be him god that would be terrible it would it would uh I I think life was probably very miserable for him I he seemed like a very unhappy person.

Mario 50:49

I mean I I interesting character it just when you look at if you go back and you look at him as an individual what like you said most individuals who read the book if you were in the prison system it was the number one you know book read in prison uh and then you know hit him trans translating into the the radio era of having his show um played across multiple radio stations across the country uh on smaller radio stations but uh pay to play for for him I think was quite interesting versus like his show being I think syndicated and then he was having to pay well he was if the thing about him which was like so kind of really added to his mystique was that he was on satellite radio.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

So therefore um you know if the satellite was down that night or you know there was a lot of clouds you couldn't get him right you know so you'd be there and like you know whatever time he would come on in your little zone and and and he wouldn't be there. So and you and you go oh when's Bill Cooper when's he's not gonna be on tonight you know it's not like Jimmy Fallon. He's on every night at exactly the same time it's not like you know you you know you you want to watch Jimmy Fallon turn it on at 1130 at night he's gonna be there no doubt about it there's not it's not likely that he's not gonna be there. So and this is like because of Cooper because of the lack of technology it was sort of in that zone where there was enough technology to bring his voice to you but not enough technology or certainty which is another one of these big deals um that you could really count on the idea that he was going to be there. So when he wasn't there that was one thing but when he did come in like real clear some nights it would almost have this kind of like supernatural feeling to it because here comes this guy was great I mean I have problems with Bill Cooper. But his radio personality was second to none I mean he was fantastic other he was a way better radio voice than Al than um art than art I thought that he as a compelling radio guy yeah that voice in the night you know like when you're in the car it just mysterious it was really it was almost like it was like a combination of art of um art and like Zachary and all these other kind of lone voices in the night and that was one of the reasons of his appeal because he was like you know he'd come in you know and it would be erratic who was sort of like the voice of the creator you know like the prophet only can hear the voice of the creator every once in a while it isn't like you know you just call up God and wait you know like he talks to you when he wants to talk to you you know it's not you it's not up to you you know so so now you've got ai is like constantly right so you gotta think back and like you know you the thing

Prediction Markets And Betting On Anything

SPEAKER_01 53:55

that's come really kind of fascinating to me at the moment is these is these prediction markets. Yeah like polymarketing like that yeah that stuff that stuff is I'd be interested I'm I'm following that very closely to see how that's gonna change the way people think because in other words you now you can bet on anything you can bet on anything anything you know anything so and um so you know some people some people just bet on the baseball game like they always used to do right or what other these kind of things that people used to bet on. But now you can bet on anything. Mitch McConnell anytime anytime anything happens that it's uncertain what's likely to happen you know um like for instance the thing with the soccer game right sure the guy gets the red card he's out you know people in America I mean in in in in places where they play soccer this is not that unusual if you get a red card everybody knows you're gonna list the next game yeah but in America watching the watching I think it's the American team there's no sport where you're like can't play the next game this is like unbelievable nobody can believe that because they're not used to it right so uh so then all right so then what's what's then what then you find out that Trump is actually called head of the league and the guy's gonna play right he's they're breaking all the rules right you know just so this can happen. So then at that point if you're playing a polymarket thing you could say well is is uh whatever the guy's name was I can't remember his name is he gonna be involved in the in the winning play that night because it becomes he's the focus of the game right so you can create this own their own polymarket thing is he gonna he's gonna be in if he's gonna be involved in it in the most pivotal play in that game um is it gonna be for the good of the American team or the bad but is he gonna make a fatal error you know and then and then you know so in other words then it would seem like you know just any anything that's uncertain you can bet on now.

Mario 56:00

I have seen a lot of social media short clips on YouTube or um any of the other platforms talking about markets asking chat you know or asking to do you know to where should I invest my money instead of having you know a stockbroker agent of that nature and they're like yeah I'm putting on my money on this or that and but there are those that are placing these interesting bets or whatever these you know is Donald Trump gonna be you know blah blah blah blah blah or you know is is Mario gonna be able to do an out a full hour of the radio show without having to taste what's it what's the what's what's the you know what's the yes no on Mario Bergania like having a heart attack before the end of the show.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

I say it's very slim right but but you but you can or like you know you can bet on it you can bet on it but you can bet on it right I mean and you might actually find it nobody really wants to bet on that but there are things that people do want to bet on you know like for instance uh you know I mean like I I wonder what the bets are the thing that's quite cute interesting to me right now is anytime you got the web right then there's the the opposing dark web right that dark the dark mirror of the web right so what are they betting on on the on the dark the dark web are they betting on the under or over of like school shootings and stuff like that what are they doing there I mean it's stuff that like no normal people supposedly bet on but I bet you people do bet on it you know so and that's an AI thing that I don't think would would you know it's part of AI.

Mario 57:39

The other piece I would that you're talking about betting is um uh the horse racing has really is having a huge yeah on you know the you know the the favors and things of that where you're getting these light last minute pushes that are coming from bots versus human debt yeah that's that's all interesting because I mean I'm an I'm an old horse player I used to like to go to the racetrack a little bit it's if you ever come to Seattle you have to go to Emerald Downs.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Really? It's what's it what's it like I mean is it like Del Mar? Is it like it's it's some it's something that you've never been it's it's it's it's it's uh the view of Mount Rainier Oh really oh that sounds great it's it's amazing the horse track is so maybe we can see me maybe we can see Kenneth Arnold's flying saucers going around yes or you know take you over to take you over to Vashan to go see the the Maury Island incident as well yeah well the Moria Island that's another one but you see the thing about the like the disclosure like for instance like something that just take something like this both this bogus disclosure thing right oh yeah you know all right so like if you're a polymarket better right you can you can come up and say well what is gonna be disclosed on disclosure day you know right and come up with these different you know they're gonna find out that Roswell was really true right I would say that's a very low possibility but some people might not might not feel that way and they might be willing to take that bet. So or or you know so I mean in a way it gives people busy work to do because they're all going to be out of work right because the AI is going to take their jobs and now that gives them something to do they can bet on anything right so I mean I don't know you know Mario I'm telling you it it's in it's interesting I as a prognosticator about the way things are going to go at this moment I really am waiting I got a lot of suspense because I really don't have a real serious feeling about how it's gonna go you know I think it's really up in the air and something big could happen you know and uh you know and it's hard to predict what it's gonna be that's why everybody wants to bet on it because nobody knows.

Mario 1:00:04

I and and I want my own droid to clean my house for me would be nice that's very selfish of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Probably but you know what at least I'd have a companion someone that can talk to me you know what I mean but well you could go on a chat room right I mean sure you can go on chat GPT go on chat GPT and you say like you know what's your favorite color you know right and then it'll tell you like why it what you know then then you can start up this little conversation and it's no right it's probably way it's probably way different than having a chat with someone on AOL right you go into the room and who knows who I was talking to at that young age for for God knows who knows who we were talking to. I mean well chat GPT has so many rules that you can't really have a like for instance I wanted to have I wanted to draw this picture of this kid right and I said that's we can't do that because it's so nervous yeah about about child pornography and all kinds of stuff that if you say can you draw me a six year old kid who was on a roller coaster they won't do it. Yeah you know they won't do it so you know um I'm sure that there are places that you could go to it's crazy begins to blow up right you know that you can get people to draw all kinds of crazy things.

Mario 1:01:23

Sure but um you know I I think for me when I was in referring to that it was just just one of those situations where you're like you know if people were looking for companionship if it's you know versus you know artificial or if it's uh you know true companionship you can find it um more of the tongue I I think more of the joke was who in the heck knows who we were talking to in those rooms I mean sure they may have been they right you know it could have been someone who is my age or it could have not been but uh you know the the verdict is out now that I'm like oh it's probably some dude from who knows where in the you know somewhere what the the fact the one of the things that was really shocking to me when when the internet first started up is that you didn't have to give your real name that changed everything that changed everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Yeah like the fact that you didn't have to give your real name that yeah I mean as as as somebody who grew up in like I was born 1948 right so and so yeah I'm not a I'm old but I'm still living so it's not that far long ago the idea that you wouldn't give your your real name and say who you really were right this was like nobody ever did that. Because you didn't really you weren't nearly as nervous about what it would be like to give your name right you knew that like when you were hippie you know you don't give your name to the CIA or the cops or something like that. But you know but that was not that big a deal really it didn't come up that often. So but I don't know it's like yeah I mean I think I think it's really kind of fascinating that it's good that you're doing this because I think that um for somebody who's like interested in conspiracies and kind of stuff like that. Yeah I mean it it's it's a natural topic.

Mario 1:03:05

For sure I mean you could go down the rabbit holes of like do I trust AI and how much do I trust of it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

You know, is it going to be a job taker you know I mean obviously we know some jobs are going to go definitely going to be a job taker sure definitely going to be uh but is it gonna look at the stocks I mean just you know do you own any do you own any AI no I do not you don't well you know my sister had this company well that's not true because uh I have T-Mobile stock so that's T Mobile that's not really there's still a telecom but yeah I mean they yeah that's old tech by now but I mean for instance like you know it it's just it's so in the air and people are talking about it and there's a real good reason why people are talking about it because it's really new yeah and it's really gonna make a difference as opposed to a lot of things that people talk about but actually it's not gonna make a difference. So um I might be wrong about this but um that's the way I feel yeah I don't think that we're gonna maybe we're not gonna see an an im uh like one of these crazy you know m moments in time where uh let's just call it a William Cooper moment where it's uh the destruction of it might have dynamic science fiction movies sure think science right I mean like and let me let me ask you one thing Mark Mario I mean are you a watcher of like say sci-fi oriented I mean yeah well I mean sure we'll we'll say you you are probably yeah all right so so you tell me if you can think of one movie or TV show or anything that has to do with that that that comes up with a happy ending. I mean it's all down the tubes right sure you're right there's no there's it's just one dystopia after another I mean it gets boring after a while you just really you can turn it on and you know and the the and it's everything is like that. So you come on and the first thing you see is this happy family right and the kids on the swing and you know something horrible is going to happen in the next five minutes. I mean which is true and that's just the way it is right so you know and anything anything that changes that equation I mean I think might be possibly good you know so uh because it's just too much fear and awful stuff about you know so like maybe this is kind of like a introduction of random factors into a closed system. So if you put random factors into a closed system by the time those things begin to swirl around there you might have a whole different system you know I mean after a while. So if everybody's so down on the way everything is I mean why not take a chance on mixing it up because the the chits might come down in a m more copacetic way, you know?

Mario 1:05:49

For

Writing One More Book

Mario 1:05:50

sure. As we wrap things up from the Pacific Northwest what are you working on these days? Anything new?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

I am working on something I'm working on my I figure I'm 78 I'm going to publish one more book before I die, right? Or at least I'm going to I I'm not planning on dying anytime soon. I'm planning on staying alive as long as possible. But um I just decided that I'm gonna uh try to publish one more book. Um and I wouldn't until fairly recently, I was just feeling like I'm tired, man. I'm just I'm a sleepy old dude, you know. But it's kind of funny about being older because um you get ideas you never had before. Sure. And all the also there's ideas that you they were half baked in your head and you really can never do anything with them. So then suddenly they become it becomes clear to you like what it's all about, you know, and and then you can go forward and make some narrative out of it, you know, or something like that. So I mean the whole thing is that you're too lazy and tired to do most of the work, but actually for thinking of the ideas, it's okay.

Mario 1:06:56

It's it's putting it to putting the pen paper to pen or pen to pencil uh to get it down.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Well, you gotta make you know just you gotta just gotta force yourself to do that, you know. But so I'm to the point where I'm getting closer to that. That's my goal to be able to sit down and just bang something out like the way I used to do, really, you know. I mean, back in the day, what's in the newspapers, right? I mean, you sat down and you recognize that you're not getting out of that chair until you're done. Right. Right. And it doesn't make a difference how long it takes, you know. You're gonna be done by the time because the peop like there's somebody on the other side of that telephone is going, Where's your copy? Where's your copy? Right, right. And then when you work for yourself, it's like very difficult to be as difficult on yourself, hard on yourself as some boss might be on you, you know.

Mario 1:07:44

So what what are we uh thinking you're gonna but what is this one gonna be about?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

Well, I think it's gonna be uh kind of um uh chat GPT actually helps a little bit because I'm what I'm doing is just sort of like refining some stuff that I worked on that I never really felt I got right. Sure. So it's like so it's like um and and also stuff that I could have never thought of when I was fifty-eight. Yeah. You know, only it's a book of the mind of uh of somebody my age, you know, which I don't think you ever read that because you know most people just blow in their it's all new. Sure, it would all be new as opposed to just republishing the same old stuff they wrote 40 years ago, which I'm not very interested in. So um, you know, I'm it just it just feels like time to produce. I always thought that like anybody who really thought of themselves as somebody who was a thinker, I'm like a I'm not making a big brief for my the the quality of my thought, but I am a thinker. So so I am I am somebody who sp has made their living, you know, by using my head all these years. So um, and you know, and running around and following Leeds and you know, you know, seeing if like something you got a you got an idea that this might be something uh important to other people, and and then you just throw yourself on a sword and try to benefit like the Bill Cooper book, you know. Right. It didn't it didn't sell that many copies, but the people that read it really liked it, you know. So um it's uh like that, you know. So you feel in a way, you feel like you owe it to yourself to keep working, and you also owe it to your like 12 fans that might be out there, you know, somewhere. So you know. So like um, you know, I feel like that that's what I'm gonna do.

Mario 1:09:36

That's uh that that I can't wait. And uh we gotta get you out here for we gotta I gotta do something. We gotta get you and Parker back on together. And if you have to do it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

I love debating with Parker. He's great.

Mario 1:09:48

We'll gotta get we gotta it it's time, it's time to get back into that whole uh that whole mentality of just having a good time. But um yeah, that's awesome. I can't wait to see what uh what comes out of your your new book. Um all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Well, you know, um people can still buy my old books. That's right. Lamp The Lampshade, which is uh a nice story about a certain kind of lamp scale lampshade that people thought was made in a Buchanwald concentration camp. Right. And turned up in New Orleans one day and during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. That's a nice book. I mean, that's not nice, but people like it. And then, you know, there's there's my great novel, Gojiro.

Mario 1:10:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

Yeah, that's what that was popular. Still has a small cult in Japan because they they think it's like because it was basically the story of Godzilla from his point of view. Right. So um, so I still have a small cult, and I got these little letters, you know, written to me in Japanese, you know. That's cool. Sometimes people translate it and it's like you can't understand what it says because they're translating it to a language they don't understand. Right. So it's it's all it's kind of all over. But anyway, you know, I I'm cool. I'm cool. I'm cool. It's great to do your show, it's always fun.

Mario 1:11:04

And of course, you still have American Gangster and then Behold the Pale Horse.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Yeah, American Gangster. Well, American Pale Horse Rider, excuse me. American, well, Pale Horse Rider is the one that's the one about Cooper. And then there's the um the American Gangster one is really just a long magazine article that I wrote for New York magazine that introduced Frank Lucas, the famous gangster that Denzel Washington while they're playing in the movie. But um, you know, it's it's that piece is in that book, American Gangster, along with the several other pieces I wrote about New York City. But um, because people get pissed because they think it's all about Frank Lucas, but it's not. So um, you know, but you know, it's what I'm saying.

Mario 1:11:47

I mean, that's fine. Uh they can find you on uh your social media handle. Um they can find you at uh on your Instagram. Pale Horse Rider Book. That's right. Uh Palehorse Rider book. Uh we'll have it linked.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

And also, also, also, if uh I got a my personal account is Mark Jacobson48. That's where I put most of my uh your goodies, not non-bill cooper

Cities Sports And Finding Joy Again

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

related material.

Mario 1:12:11

There you go. There you go. Well, and you had a good fourth? I didn't I didn't even ask you about it. That was great, man. Yeah. Fireworks up the bazoo, man. That was just a great well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

We had the they had the tall ships here. That was kind of cool. And then and um then and that was in Battery Park. I don't know if people don't know about New York, but it's way down at the bottom of the Manhattan Island. Yeah, and there's really it must have been a hurricane, it must have been a tornado that came through there. Because there were all these old trees that have been there like more than a hundred years with their tops just snapped off, and you just don't see that in New York City very often. So um, that was kind of fantastic. Yeah, I've been cool. Yeah, it's good.

Mario 1:12:53

Yeah. I mean, it was a good fourth, I mean 250 years, it's I don't I mean, you know, it's 250 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

I mean, you know, I the thing about America is like why people have to fight about what it is. What is really the real America? The whole thing is the real America. Sure. You know, all these people arguing about it, that's like America. That's what it ought to be, anyhow. I'm I mean I mean, that's what these these people that think that they own something, you know, that is just they're they're I have no time for those kind of people.

Mario 1:13:24

Have fun with life, because it I mean, one day you may not be here, but um it's always a pleasure to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

That's just that's a certainty. That's a certainty for you. I mean, death and taxes, yeah. Yeah, and it's a certainty for you as well. Right. But I I assume that you're gonna live for a hundred years.

Mario 1:13:39

I don't know about that. I mean, I think that um we'll continue just to I I call it now at my age, I call it preserving uh preservation of life now. I don't drink anymore. I don't I don't I'm like two years dry.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:53

Um two years dry. But how much did you used to drink? A lot.

Mario 1:13:56

No, no, I I just would drink once or twice. Um occasionally I'd go to the baseball game and have a great time, have a couple extra, and I'd be you know a little loosey-goosey. And then I just you know, I just was like, I'm done. And I just I just stopped.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

Well the mariners any good this year?

Mario 1:14:14

Uh they're okay. I mean, they're hanging in there. They're uh the Mets are so bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:21

I can't even watch them.

Mario 1:14:23

It's there are days, there are frustrating days. I know it's it's it's tough. It it has to be tough.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

But the Nicks, the Knicks did win.

Mario 1:14:32

Oh, that yeah, they they did.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

That was that was that was like the parade for the Knicks parade. That was wild. We went there, there were the cops said there were two million people there. You know, there were two million people there. That's awesome. And everybody was in a there wasn't there were no incidents. That's awesome. It was not one bad thing happening. Of course, everybody was in a good mood, that's right, and they were all happy about this one thing, and there was nothing to fight about. That's true. It was it was fantastic.

Mario 1:15:03

I will just say uh, you know, the the FIFA World Cup that just happened, um the numbers are around 500 and something thousand people came through Seattle.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Um that's such a great, great looking stuff. I love that stadium.

Mario 1:15:16

I mean, that just it was just the showcase of the weather, the city itself. Um I'll be honest with you, I spent a lot of time near the market having coffee and just being around the city and the buzz. It was awesome. It it just felt really cool to be apart and not be a part of it. You know what I mean? Like, I went and had coffee, but but but eat but being someone who's from here, people trying to find their way, I'm like, hey, you know, and helping them. Hey, where are you trying to go? I'm trying to get up to the market. I'm like, well, you can go right up here or you can go this way. How do I get blah, blah, blah? I'm like, just go down the street, you know. I mean, it was cool to be able to help other people, but what was really interesting to me was to see the city at night. I call it Seattle after dark. And and typically on a Wednesday night, I went out looking, I went out late night, I went to go get some tacos from this brand new tacadilla place, and this little taco joint. And to see all the people walking the street, I was like, wow, this is amazing to see. And I you can tell they're not from Seattle walking the streets when the city typically would be a little more on the quiet side, you know. It was just a little it was it was it was cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

It's great when people are out at night, I think.

Mario 1:16:32

I it just it was cool. It was cool to see the city vibing again and not like zombies running the streets and having doing drugs. And not that I'm but that's that I mean that's uh there's still that some of that going on, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:48

Like Seattle's a funny kind of place, maybe it really is in certain areas you think there's only two kinds of people there are Amazon workers and there are people that are completely out of their minds, right? It's so true, but it's it's so true. But but I mean I I'm sure it's not it was awesome, but it can't be the work the case.

Mario 1:17:06

No, no, there's a little bit of everything, and um, it was just cool to see the showcase of the city, and I know that there's uh I have my own theory about what the city should do if they're gonna have all these office spaces and are gonna are gonna stay open, and I'll just say they just need to what are they gonna do with all those buildings? My thought was um, you know how they you know how they drentify a neighborhood? Maybe they should return that back, turn those into condos, you know, those sky rises into condos, and you know, let these young millennials or younger generation of kids who want to live in the city, live in the city and just kind of build it out that way. And you you kind of change it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

That'd be great, but that would be against the real estate principle, which is a very strong one. For sure, for sure. I mean in New York, I mean the prices I mean, I I I yeah, like I bought my house in 1991, right? So I put I I thought it was it wasn't cheap, you know. Right then, but the people the guy lives next door to me, it's the same house. He paid ten times as much for his house, and like you know, when I'm pissed off in a bad mood, if he parks, you know, where I don't like it or something like that, I remind him about that. But

Final Plugs And Sign Off

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

well on that note, I really don't, but I feel like that.

Mario 1:18:17

Yeah. On that note, let me wrap things up here. Thank you again for taking. It was good. Uh as always, uh if you have a chance, uh, we'll have all the social links posted. Um, as I always like to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

Just let me know when it's up.

Mario 1:18:32

Sure. Uh as I always like to say, if uh be sure to look up the sky because you never know what you might see. Good night.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

Good night.