A Bucket of Coal is a rare opportunity to explore the life and career of Les Jones. From the North Welsh coalfields, the pits and through the heartbreak of the Gresford tragedy, Les went on to receive a scholarship to attend Magdalen College, Oxford - taking his voice and passionate commitment to social justice with him. In this podcast he shares some of his experiences and explains how he became a teacher. His wisdom, knowledge and humour shed light on a range of topics including equality, global citizenship, wealth, wellbeing, academic life, love and and the eternal bonds of friendship.
Thank you to Rob Ford and Tatiana Popa for bringing this project to life.
Artwork - thank you to Shaun Slifer for kind permission to use his original artwork 'Original Redneck, 1921' - for prints and to see Shaun's work visit https://justseeds.org/product/original-redneck-1921/
Additional music - thank you to Dowlais Male Choir, Grimethorp Coliery Band, The Pheonix Welsh Male Voice Choir, clip from “How Green Was My Valley” thanks to Rick Davi.
A Bucket of Coal is a rare opportunity to explore the life and career of Les Jones. From the North Welsh coalfields, the pits and through the heartbreak of the Gresford tragedy, Les went on to receive a scholarship to attend Magdalen College, Oxford - taking his voice and passionate commitment to social justice with him. In this podcast he shares some of his experiences and explains how he became a teacher. His wisdom, knowledge and humour shed light on a range of topics including equality, global citizenship, wealth, wellbeing, academic life, love and and the eternal bonds of friendship.
Thank you to Rob Ford and Tatiana Popa for bringing this project to life.
Artwork - thank you to Shaun Slifer for kind permission to use his original artwork 'Original Redneck, 1921' - for prints and to see Shaun's work visit https://justseeds.org/product/original-redneck-1921/
Additional music - thank you to Dowlais Male Choir, Grimethorp Coliery Band, The Pheonix Welsh Male Voice Choir, clip from “How Green Was My Valley” thanks to Rick Davi.
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:I'm the director of heritage international school. Um, I'm a lifelong learner, thanks to Lez. Um, I've known Lez since the tender age of 11. Um, when I was, uh, a new school starter at secondary school in 1984 at the height of the miner's strike. And, um, we had our first woodwork lesson and, uh, Les come and met us all. And we hadn't met charismatic teachers that sang to us and, uh, shepherd us along and made a huge performance of getting our aprons on and how we're going to enjoy creating. And, um, I mentioned about a tool that has had that my dad has got one in the, in his workshop at home and, uh, less quick as anything said, Oh, well, I suppose he's got this huge bourgeois middle-class garage full of tools and everything from black and Decker. And, um, there are many moments in Leslie's life when he's stumped for words. Um, and I said, no, no, he hasn't because he's on strike. And Les said, um, Oh, where's the on strike? And I said, well, he's a coal miner. He's one of the sort of remaining Shropshire coal miners. And, um, he's a trade union leader and he's, and, um, later on that day, I was in a science lesson and Les came by and, uh, the science teacher was trying to calm the class down. And Mr. Jones, Mr. Jones had already made his legendary Mark on our class, which was to last us through school and he had a card and, uh, he had some money in the card to my parents. And, uh, I still remember the inscription cause it said to, to Jim and Mark, um, it's people like you, we look up to and need to keep on fighting the fight. And he said in the card, please have yourself a good mail app. Cause he knew that, uh, they were involved in this struggle for their communities. And of course they put it straight into the strike hardship fund. Um, let's, let's, what's the teacher you could go to. I mean, everybody has shouted when he walked across the school, um, wanted to sort of show the him what they were doing. Tell him a story from the weekend, even now when I I'm 26 years of teaching. Um, and I'm here because of last, we're all here because of our good teachers. Um, when I think back to the engagement and how people would run to that lesson and the boss in that lesson and being allowed to fail in the atmosphere that he created in his pedagogy. I mean, you can't coach that in anybody that, that that's just a natural way of somebody who wants to bring the best out of young people is genuinely interested in them, authentic stories. I mean, everybody I speak to who remembers less remembers the tidy up at the, nobody was allowed to go into it. All the chisels were back in the hacksaws and the place was cleaned up.
Speaker 3:And we will tell him that that's tell the joke.
Speaker 2:And even in those days less, um, always, uh, fighting for social justice and equality that it couldn't be sexist. It couldn't be racist. It couldn't have bad words in. Um, and so we'd all lined up for this sort of end of lesson and the atmosphere he would create and people telling the jokes. There was a wonderful poster in that room. I always remember an equal opportunities commission poster of a girl with this wonderful long hair with the strap line. I wish I'd been born a boy and Les would always make sure that, you know, we treated each other with respect. I mean, those lessons are instilled into us from a young age and he allowed us to grow and he allowed us to lead. We had a wonderful sideline in making fireside irons for posh. Middle-class had teachers and deputy head teachers farmhouses, um, from the workshop, very, very good lucrative market there. It was, it was the age of Thatcher. Greed was good. Um, well for some, um, and the, you know, the, the, this is what was left with me, this, this, this very strong relationship for values-based approach. You know, this was a, this was a tough former mining town aspirations were, were low. Um, not many people went to the local college that alone even thought about university. And one last gave me my first sort of challenge reading, which was George Orwell's the road to work in peer and the inscription carry the flame, defend the weak, you know, really set me on a journey. Um, you know, Les had been given books by his tutors and the ambition of reading the Carnegie library in Wrexham, um, and really that love of learning. And I feel that, you know, even today we still discuss a new idea or a new piece of literature or film or, you know, with his creativity and his art. Um, there were some strange kind of moments where we've both sort of spoke at, you know, significant times. And I remember when John Smith, the labor leader died in 1994, just on the first of my exams, my finals at the university of York. And I'm there because of less. And that's nice spoke about what the loss of someone like John Smith, who isn't really remembered very much these days as a labor leader and the best prime minister potentially. We would never, we wouldn't, you know, we never had. And, um, you know, these, these are the things you remember and the, and the, you know, what I, what I still take from Blais is this absolute love and passion for learning and for knowing more, and that sort of Socratic idea of we're wise, because we don't know what you know, um, we need to know, or w we, we need to keep the process of learning, continuing all the time. And, um, you know, our friendship and our love is injured. I mean, he's, he's my adopted father. He, um, is, is the grandfather to my children. Um, you know, the father to, to my wife, we, um, you know, we build our families, we built our communities. And I think the model that lends us that lens is preached and practiced all these decades, um, is one that we can take forward with hope that it is in our families, in our communities, that we find our strength, we find our ideas, we find our support. And I think that really is what it has meant to me. And I'm very fortunate. And I think anybody in any profession in any sort of walk of life, having someone to coach and mentor you and to tell you things you don't want to hear sometimes uncomfortable truths. Um, Les has done that to me on many occasions and made me think about the direction of the decisions that I've made in my life or the way that I've approached something. And I think that's really the building blocks, which are timeless, you know, matter no matter what the technology is, um, or the zeitgeists of the age, that's how our humanity progresses and goes forward. And that's the hope for all of us. And I think in this crisis, you know, when I hear that less is mentoring and coaching, you know, two lads for Oxbridge in his garden, socially distance, but challenging them and talking to them and being that golden thread all the way from, you know, the sort of inspiration and the, and, and the stories that made Les from his background in the Northwest whilst coalfields, you know, aspire to go to Oxford and to share that love of learning, um, you know, that's hard for us all there and hope for us all.
Speaker 4:Is that okay?
Speaker 2:Um, I don't know. I've just read, I'm just reading from the script here. I just, he likes to drink every now and again, it's about a small whiskey at Christmas. I must have
Speaker 4:[inaudible]
Speaker 5:Hello and welcome to the multi-day taught podcast today is a real special occasion because I'm going to be speaking to less John's highlights. How are you? I'm fine. Thanks for the invitation and for allowing us to, to come and record the interview, got a few things to ask. The first question is what was life like before teaching for you?
Speaker 6:Uh, not very good. It was working in a Foundry. Uh, the only job I could get, which is ironic because the only job my dad could catch when he was 13, was to record on the pets. And the only job I could gas at the time was to go into a Foundry and work there was there any job available? So, um, that's what life was like. It was working in the Foundry cast, iron Foundry, but it was one of historical interest. It was Burcham Foundry, and, uh, he was the terrible crook, but he was the founder of, uh, also Bravo steelworks. He fell out with his brother and also did dealings with the Quaker belt iron bridge, which was the origin of the industrial revolution and, uh, iron bridge. So it had some interest for me, right from the beginning. So, although, although I was doing a very menial task, I was nevertheless interested in the background I was in. And I saw working man for the first time, uh, in action, how the responsibility, the need to support each other. And, uh, there were immigrant workers are doing the fat, which is a terrible job because you've got to stand out there with the iron Duff's going around and swirling around the, but there were some fairly good incidents. And I learned a lot, uh, re learned a lot about people. Uh,
Speaker 5:All right. Were there any other really significant moments when you were growing up? Anything that, that really stands out for you?
Speaker 6:Yes. One was because of the grasper disaster, they, which was the second biggest sing. Kenneth was the first biggest disaster in Wales, aggressive as the second biggest disaster called by Gwen Thomas, a well-known broadcaster. At that time, he called it an obscenity of orality called it an obscenity of, uh, uh, capitalism. Capitalism was his pronunciation. Other is an Oxford Manny, but he read Spanish at Oxford. And, uh, also noticeable that he was so, um, I think he'd been at college and he was so overall by the dining arrangements that he'd gone out to get some chips and more or less left on chips for three years. He said, so he claims, but anyway, he was very outspoken, very music man. And that was his statement on the grasper disaster. Now that disaster killed 420 men from villages around Gresford on grass with itself and Wrexham and quad poise under lands and so on. Well, what happened is that the, it was known that the fire damage was dangerous and they kept reporting it to the owner and to the manager. And, uh, he ignored, it ignored the results of it. Uh, while the results were very bad because an explosion took place and they were, the men were locked in and factually a tomb on the boss of the men on that shift were locked and that too. And, um, they couldn't get to them because of the fire. Uh, I don't know the technicalities of it, but it had, uh, it was stone dust and it exp the explosion was caused by the stone dust as much as anything. So there's no escape from it. And, um, the men were tuned in, uh, and tapping away because most of them had been many had been in the army. So they knew most called and things like this, and you do is communication. And they kept tapping to tell them they would sort of get them out, but they couldn't get them out. And then, then they're sealed off the tomb. So they died down. Uh, and, uh, so it was a double thing, not the incident. I remember when it first came into my consciousness was, um, going with a friend called Neville Edwards. His father had died down there and there's a huge collection. The Lord matter of London collected for instance, and, uh, people from the South contributed huge amounts and people from all over the world all over the world contributed, but certainly all of the Britain contributed. Imagine I have a van in 1933 that's that's, that's the key to it. And, um, they, I remember walking up with my friend Neville Eldridge, and he was going to see this committee. Now, I didn't understand what it was all about now. It was just raising my consciousness for the first time on this committee. He would have to go before the committee and his shoes were worn out and he was asking for some money to buy some new shoes. Now, if you read LA Christ, the candle for water to any time, you will see the biggest problem for an immigrant FA for a poor family, not immigrant family, for a poor family, other shoes, getting shoes and boots to work, to function, because you can always cut down and, and, uh, uh, adjust clothing and so on, but there's nothing you can do about boots or shoes. So it was going up to the UN, I didn't understand it. Of course at that time, we must've been about 10 or 11, something like that. He went before this committee, I wasn't there. I just walked up with him to the place. And, um, he had to show his boots and they're all learned there's millions in this, in this fund, by the way, uh, absolute millions. What exactly what happens to it? What has happened to it since I do not know, and not as anybody else, I think, but the 40,000, uh, Crocs are taken over by this time and had formed a committee to dish it out, uh, to shut the funds. And he had to hold his boots up to this committee. Remember is he's certainly a little boy, rarely. And, uh, he held up his boots there and they were all murmuring and say, Oh, no, they couldn't last for another month or so, or it'd be all right. Yes. And he came away from there and he didn't have any money to buy his boots. So it was not a very nice walk back home again, uh, cause his boots were definitely leaking. And as you know, with the whales, we tend to have quite a heavy rainfall as it were. So it was not a very comfortable, but it raise my consciousness, made me understand. And later on when there was, um, I, a lifeboat in Cornwall, the inhabitants of the lifeboat were killed the man in charge there said, no, it's not going to any committee are, know who I know who is on that board. And I know their circumstances and they know who to give the money to. And I really applauded that because that's what should have happened with the funds raised after the grasper disaster. But it never was. The BBC has done a couple of good broadcasts on this and the human stories. They're quite, quite moving rarely because one lady talks about her father going biking to, to grasp for the night shift. And his son was going, it was in the lamp room and was dishing out the lamps on the tallies. You had a tally when you went down the pet so that if your tally wasn't back on the board, they knew you were still down there and they would come looking for you. The rescue of brigade would come looking for you. But he was working in the lamp room, giving out the lumps and taking the tallies in. And, um, he, she said, he said goodbye to his father and then never saw him again. The father was killed down there. So she was quite removing tests Renee. She said, because they'd been deprived of, of that and deprived of help and deprived of the earner. Of course, this was the, this was the really sad thing about it. They come from poverty to even worse poverty, rarely. And despite, you know, mining communities support each other very much. And you learn this from a very early age. When you see a load of coal, I see used to deliver it in those days, a lot of coal pile outside your front gate, your mother would say, a man would say, uh, take a bucket of coal for Sohn, sort of take a bucket of coal for so-and-so and you supported naturally you learned right from the beginning to look after your neighbors to support your neighbors, just make sure they would. All right, constantly. And it was a good lesson to learn. It's one you grew up with you didn't, it didn't need any explanation of it so-and-so needs looking after. So therefore you got to go and do it. You just, you did it automatically. It was part of your culture, part of what you were
Speaker 1:[inaudible] key to education. How did you get involved in?
Speaker 6:Well, it was very good primary school. I went to a there's 11 plus on FA pretty fierce 11 plus I passed that. I went to the local grammar school, which I disliked disliked intensely when I finished at the primary school. And then I think grammar school, uh, eventually I managed to get to Oxford, a scholarship to Oxford. Uh, prior to that, I went to Ruskin and, uh, the entrance to Ruskin in those days was by assay wrote an essay, but also you needed a background to do it. You had to show you didn't realize it at the time, but you have to show that you are community minded. Uh, being a member of the labor party was, uh, an advantage of course. And, um, what you did, what you did with the trade unions and what you did to prepare yourself for study is there. And the trade unions at that time run a very good educational system that centered it in a place called Pitlochry and who produces a very good Wesco. I might had a Pitlockery and office Scotland on East side have never been there. They've put on various courses constantly. I was in an engineering union from the Foundry and they put on various courses, so you could study. And that's what I did. I studied. And we were very fortunate to have a good local library.
Speaker 5:Maybe tell us a bit more about the, the scholarship and, uh, and how that came about and what impact that had on your life from there.
Speaker 6:Well, it was a culture shock to go to Oxford and course lots. There's a culture shock for them sometimes, and I did enjoy it. I loved every minute of it. There is there's more sun snobbish place. There's certain Freemasonry among, um, students that all arrived. So anything, uh, any differences. And, uh, one of my best friends, there was CRA eight, nine Christ church. And almost the opposite of me. He was tall blonde had what I thought was of the working class height. And, uh, it was a wild Heights and a dark hat, but very articulate, always prepared to defend him. And, uh, because he was quite vulnerable, rarely, although he was very wealthy and, um, Colin Oliphants, he wrote, we wrote to each other for the time afterwards. And he wrote and said, do you realize less that, uh, uh, it was, we were in a very dangerous position as a murder every week in Oxford. And he said, but this chap Moss comes along and solves them. He said, but that's not much help if you've been murdered. So, uh, he was Greg great guy. And, and as I say, he was very wealthy. He was of the Tate and Lyle family. And, uh, his parents eventually bought him a, a largest he's dad. Now, of course, but his parents had bought him a larger state and Inverness. Uh, it took to the Kelton, although his, he wasn't, he was from, um, cardigan square London. So he was hardly a Scot. He took to the Kelton became landed, gentlemen, rarely, uh, such as well. And then I went on to be a teacher
Speaker 4:[inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible].
Speaker 6:How did your view of education develop and change during that time? It's the main thing that happened is that there's a chance of a job and Africa and that underneath the barefoot talkers, not to be a barefoot doctor for, to, uh, work there. And they wanted someone to lecture on history and economics, English history, and economics, but also to work in the field. Well, um, I've always been a compulsive vegetable grower so that it suited me eventually. And I went to see a tutor I had, uh, and, uh, tough Evans. And he had worked in the Sudan most of his life. And I qualify to be one of his, uh, sub one of his pupils because I was from Wales, which was the equivalent of coming from the Sudan, I suppose, as they, they thought. And, um, he said, you wouldn't be here asking advice. You would be at home packing her bag. So that wasn't the job for me. And then eventually I realized my scholarship had run out and I had to, uh, find some rent for that, my digs in Oxford and so on. So there was a local job going and having them. And I applied for that. I went along to the interview and the headmaster, which he, he did say to me, uh, you realize this job will take off at least two years because you've got, he was starting the sixth form off. And, uh, he also wanted people lower down the school in the fourth and fifth forms, or there were then I don't, I don't know what the other dessert divide them all now, but in the fourth and fifth year to learn about economics and politics. So we wanted that one as well. It had some great ideas. It was the only state school at that time, teaching Chinese and a very good man from Gloucester, not a Gloucester Chinese. He just learned it in there in the outer half as a matter of fact, but he taught the Chinese there and it was always a marked school, outstanding school, rarely fresh ideas, good ideas. And, uh, I really enjoyed it there for a time, but what happened in the interview? He said, you'll have to stay here two years. Well, I had another job, uh, talking about trade unions and a radio job in Manchester, but, uh, that was obviously not coming along rarely, but he said, will you stay the two years to get the six phone set up? And I did a sort of a Hancock on him and looked him straight in the yard and told a lie. And I said, of course, and knowing that if there's a letter for me from this Manchester job, when I got home, and that was the art of politics, of course, is that you could lie and looking straight in the eye and do it. And, uh, I did it that time. I haven't done it since because I'm a Quaker and truth is the most important thing you can do.
Speaker 5:So you've mentioned a few of your teachers there. What makes a great teacher for you?
Speaker 6:What I discovered for myself is that I'd been working in the school for about two or three months. I can't remember exactly how much and, uh, the next class was waiting to come in. And, uh, usually I had some sort of introduction to the class, like, um, some jokey type thing, like you're coming into a whole of learning now, and it's absolutely reverence and all this sort of business. And it was all lighthearted because you have a lot of jokes in school and a lot of good fun in school. People always forget that they always concentrate on the misery part of it, the difficult part, and people always said to me, art, how was the discipline? I would like to be in school now because our teacher used to slap our ears for us and so on. And I say, well, your daughter's in my class. I'll slap her areas. Oh no, she's very good girl. And that they always had perfect children, of course. But, uh, anyway, um, this, this class was coming in and I suddenly realized I was very happy and I was actually very happy in the job I was doing. And I thought this is good. And it never, never actually left me that I like taught in various schools in the city schools, grammar schools and, and comprehensive schools. But, um, that happiness never really left me until I packed it in, in the end. I was a senior teacher, but I suddenly thought I was holding forth one morning as I did. And on the state of the union and the state of the party, mostly the Tory party, I always took an iron Bevin's view of life that, um, when he was accused of being a champagne socialist, and he said, yes, I am a champagne shortlist. He said, I want champagne in my, and my fridge and a smoked salmon. And, uh, both things in. He said, if they're good enough for the chops, they got enough for the working class. So I always took that view as well. What was good enough at the Tufts is good enough for the working class. So I was holding forth as usual in my chair, and I suddenly thought I'm going to die in this chair. That's going to be my experience of life, of just teaching in this school, very comfortable school, very easy school to teach him well-run good colleagues. And so on unusual ideas, we had, we, which we could exercise and a wide range of people, many had done other jobs other than teaching, which was one of the secrets I was asked. What makes a good teacher? What makes a good teachers to realize? One thing is first from the, I got this from the Quaker book of faith and practice is that you cannot know everything at the beginning. You have to learn as you go along. So be prepared to learn as you go along for one thing. And secondly, you must remember your lessons have a syllabus that you've really want to work to. And this is in conjunction with the more senior teachers, of course, but you have your syllabus and then you see how that particular lesson fits into the syllabus. So it, everything you do with that day is relevant rather than just drifting. And remember whether you're a religious professor of history at Oxford, or whether you are a school teachers and just an ordinary school, that every lesson is the same. It's a simple thing. What are you going to teach? How are you going to teach it? How do you know you've taught it? And that's what makes a good teacher? What are you going to teach? How you're going to teach it? How do you know you've taught it? What, what feedback are you going to get at the end, uh, to know that what you've done is relevant to the pupils. Now, the other thing to remember is that teaching is not vertical. That is to say you don't, it doesn't come the fount of knowledge. Isn't you coming directly down to them? It's it's um, it goes sideways. And I learned this in virtually the first week I was teaching because I was talking about the bank of England and its bank of last resort. And I spoke with such crystal clarity about it. Anybody would understand the function of the bank of England after I'd finished and somebody was talking and I a good pupil actually. And I said, why are you talking? I've just, just explained that. And he said, no, he understands me better than you. So what you realize is that they've got their own language and their own culture, no matter how posh they are or not posh, there, there are, they've got their own means of communication. So don't ignore that. That makes a good teacher having a good, clear syllabus being well-organized and having a syllabus. And that particular lesson is fitting in some parts of that syllabus. Otherwise you're just drifting in the ad all the time.
Speaker 5:Before you mentioned about the buckets of coal and the lessons that it gave about that idea of community and sharing and helping each other. There's a quotation here, which, which says those who thrive, act out the proposition that everyone matters. And if we, if we accepted that, uh, what would the implications be for teachers and school leaders?
Speaker 6:It's very, very difficult. Really? It's the modern of the most difficult things. You difficult questions you can answer to begin with. And, uh, I really don't know what the answer is. There's no glib answer to it, to it. Everyone does matter. And I worked with a chopper, a head teacher when I was on a course one time. And, uh, he called eras in South Wales and he was a very unusual man actually. And he taught in a very difficult area in Newport, in South Wales with a very wide range of, uh, class differences between people he'd have people there. They were children of lawyers and people out of the children of Dockers and so on and saw a very wide social range. And if anybody can there, that was really difficult to deal with. He'd call them God's children gifted in other directions. And that's as near as I could get to talking about people and saying they're gifted in other directions, but I don't know what the answer is. And I don't think anybody does know the answer there.
Speaker 5:Next question is related to equality and inequality. And, uh, just curious to know what steps would you take or suggest to address the inequalities that exist in the world today?
Speaker 6:Well, I feel very sorry for Ethan. The first thing I would do is go to JCB who make a conservative contribution of eight, 8 million or so per year to the Tory party, so that we're looking after their chums and get a Jessie be done there and dig up these famous playing fields. They've got, uh, take them up because this contributed to the, the winning of Waterloo and the end of the Napoleonic Wars. But also I think they should, uh, they would contribute again to, I turned them into a lot months so that people could, could dig and dig on the playing fields of Eaton and they would be producing allotments. So there were no need to feel guilty about being a charter or state as they were being chargeable. There were the equivalent of giving the bucket of call that I talked about earlier. Cause it would have these great, huge allotments there. I don't, I've never been to Eaton, so I don't know what they're playing field salami, but they're always reputed to have won the Napoleonic war at Waterloo on the flame fields of Eaton. Uh, I don't know where that statement comes from. Uh, well, let's see. I should think
Speaker 1:What about creativity then? What, what is creativity and be
Speaker 6:Another difficult question, but it's answerable because part of creativity is having equipment. Uh, I know one time I was teaching about castles to an adult class and, uh, they were making a castle and castles are quite complex business. We've got a lot of them in Wales as you know, uh, the ring of steel that went around there. And, uh, they were a dominating force in that painted white so that whatever you went and looked, you could see the counselor. And I was teaching this adult class that, and they're saying, I can't find this as a surgeon, he's got the glue and all this sort of they. And I said, well, that's what it's like. That's what it's like when you're in a class, but you're not articulate enough. You're not strong enough to do that. So a lot of creativity is having the stuff there to do the job that you're going to do not go, not be stymied by the lack of glow or the lack of scissors to cut something up or the wrong tools, a lot heavier. So you can't expect anybody to be creative and teach creativity without the certain equipment that you need. Also, you need someone who, my wife, when she was alive, she used to crochet beautiful crochet work. And it was quite interesting. People would come up to her and say to her, how can you net with one needle? So she would then show them. And crocheting is not, I never did learn. I must admit, but I don't think it's that difficult. And, um, so she would show people how to do it and they'd go away rejoicing as it were, or certainly crocheting anyway,
Speaker 5:Well, wellbeing and mental health is high on the agenda for teachers it's high on the agenda for the profession. And just for, for us, uh, you know, in life in general, particularly now during this, this period of crisis, what advice would you give to anyone if they're struggling or feeling low?
Speaker 6:Well, I've suffered in the same way. I think I'm quite a strong person and I'm very self-sufficient person with my books and so on. I've always been a tremendous reader. And, uh, my friend also from Abbott house and he, he writes me once a week when he's well enough. So I'm not short of contact or hinterland, but the isolation suddenly got to me and I was quite surprised really how weak I was. And so the only thing I can get around it is humor. What saves you very often. It's just being amusing as being frivolous. And the humor will, will take it, carry you through, but that's not much of an answer to someone because someone from, with bipolar or a schizophrenia or this type of illness, I don't know what the answer would be, but I don't know. It'd be quite interesting to see how much Liverpool suffers from mental illness compared with other cities, because Liverpool wants thing that always talking to each other and then always the Scouts Huma. Sometimes you wish you didn't have Scouts Huma. You wish they'd just give you a straight answer, but they always give you a funny answer to something, whatever it is. And, uh, they've always got some Mary Quip and so on. So it would be interesting to compare those two things. And, um, I don't know really this strength of mind, as I said, a few years back, I would have said, well, you know, it just depends on the character you've got or whatever it was, the thing that's handed out to you. But I don't believe that anymore. I believe after, after I experienced it most often in this COVID 19 lockdown, when I suddenly found how weak I was to defend myself against, um, well meld mantra illness, really where I got really quite depressed at one point. But I had, as I mentioned before, I had a good hinterland and the Quakers would in touch with me. And, uh, I was surrounded by good friends. Uh, people wrote to me, people send me cards. I didn't tell them any of this thing, but they were they've kept me going. So I suppose the cultivation of friends as their real answer. And when I suppose mental illness means an isolation of some sort. So I suppose, you know, you've got to give them a bucket of coal or whatever it is that will do it C seek them out. So I suppose you've got to watch out for someone who's Ty slated and, uh, just make a friend of them in some way, the bucket of coal syndrome, you've got to grow up with it, grow up, looking after each other.
Speaker 5:Robert said something about a, a book and inside there was a quotation about carried the flame and defend the weak. Can you tell me a bit about, about that and where that was from?
Speaker 6:Yes. Carry the flame, defend the weak, what it is. Why are you giving this equipment? Why are you being given this equipment to be articulate, to be clever, to get degrees and so on and so on? So it must be some reason for it. And that reason you either going to make a lot of money and why you should make a lot of money. I don't know. And what, you know, you can only live in one house at a time. You can only swim in one swimming pool at a time. So why you need all that money? I don't know all that access money, what it doesn't give you a safety or that doesn't give you safety from, from emotional upsets or anything like this. I'll give you love. And you can't snuggle up to a bank balance on, on a cold winter night, you've been given this equipment to do something. And the equipment from my point of view is defend the week I learned to be quite brave. I wasn't at first, but I learned to be quite brave and stand up to authority and stand up to people who are raw, who in my opinion were wrong and misguided. So you defend the weak in that sense. And you defend the weekend as a general. I mean, I'm horrified at people having to sleep in the street and, uh, that haven't got enough food to eat. I mean, just a terrible thing. We run a food bank. Of course, the quick to quick a group, I blog quick, a meeting. I belong to run a food bank when we deliver it to the salvation army who distributes it, it just the lady there in the salvation army Newtown, Sam, she said one time, it was the sort of down and out to near two Wells that were coming. Not that the, she used those words, she salvation army. She said that, um, at one time it was like that. But now there were people, often people who were both working, I knew were coming there and what happens? You can't cut down on electricity. You can't cut down on your heating and winter. So you cut down on food and that's why they were going to the food bank. And she said, these perfectly respectable, hardworking people still were not earning enough to buy the food. And that sense the way the salvation defends the week was to, uh, supply them with food really, and, and coordinate the food banks. Incidentally, my sister is a Salvationist. I'm very proud of her, except for one thing. When I used to go for a walk with her on a Saturday morning in town, she would be, she used to collect, I think she's one of the last to collect money on the Saturday night, selling the walk ride pubs, she'd go around the pubs and all the drunks. And ne'er do Wells with,[inaudible] see on SIA tonight, Betty. And, uh, and I used to say, can't you find, Hey, get some more decent friends that shouts to you because she says, Oh, they're just really wonderful people. And, uh, what a way to look at people is fantastic. Really
Speaker 1:[inaudible]
Speaker 7:I would like to ask you a last, uh, what is think is essential for students to learn in this globalized 21st century world,
Speaker 6:Uh, to be articulate, not to use common phrases. I can't, they're not allowed to say uni to me. They're not allowed to say awesome. They're not allowed to say all sorts of words. They need to be articulate and they need to like, there's one question I, I put to them an Oxford question would said, if God is omnipotent, could he make us, could he make a rock? That's he couldn't lift now instead of saying, well, I don't believe in God. Anyway, that's not the answer. You then share pop to it. And you give a, you give a coherent articulate, answer to it. And there is not, there's no set answers to these questions that they are asking Oxbridge you, or tuck them in a very spirited way and an articulate way. Not using, I'm not using shorthand like cool. There's one chap was writing a button and he said, this, this man, he was interviewing this boy. He was interviewing only seem to have two words like uncool say, it's like, cool, man. It's cool, man. It's cool. Really, really cool. Like, it's cool. It's like, cool. And he said, if he would just stop saying bloody cool, he would have all hundred players just to shut him up. I think,
Speaker 7:Tell me what, uh, skills do these young people need to acquire in order to leave. In 21st century,
Speaker 6:There was a quick, I used to broadcast
Speaker 8:For many years on the radio. It eventually died, actually not died on the radio, but he, uh, he, uh, and he said at the end, he was deeply religious announcement. Then what, what was the one thing he should learn in life? And I've always remembered his arm. She said, keep the drains clear. And I thought that's a peculiar answer. But at the vote I've thought about it. It means that you've got to be able to run your household very well. And keeping the drains clear is one of them keeping things ticking over because I heard someone on the other day said she was complaining about her husband. And she said he wouldn't even form the gospel board. And I know what she meant. Everything could fall back on her. She had to do everything in the house, even following the gospel to say the gas was off or whatever it was, whatever the problem was. So I think one of the skills you should acquired as a person is how to run a household. I was very fortunate with my mom because I had three sisters, as you know, yes, I remember this. And she said, she said to me, they're not a service industry for you. So therefore I had to learn to clean, to iron, to wash and to cook
Speaker 7:What a great Molly had mentioned this. Um, so you always, when you mentioned your sisters, you always called yourself a feminist, uh, many times. Can you, can you stay, who influenced you in becoming a feminist?
Speaker 8:Uh, w one of, one of the public characters was, uh, uh, was, uh, a labor politician. And she said, uh, she said, do not worry about percentage increases in your wages. What you need to do is fight to get institutions, good schools, good hospitals, good roads. And she said, if you've got those, you've got everything you need on that. Increasing your wages will never, never do your much good because people will put up there with their wages for 10% or 5% or whatever it is. They got to do it. And 5% of a director's pay is done site more than 5% of laborers pay. So, uh, that, that made me think, yeah, she's right. And I've always clung to that one. That's, that's been the basis of my belief and socialism that we should Institute good schools for all good hospitals and various things like that. Good Roche, not just for posh people to go on their cars for her good access, good railways. And so on what Bevin used to call the commanding Heights of the economy and which you own your own water. Uh, in Wales, we are well supplied with water cause we've got a good rainfall, but we run a company called not for profit. A company did do doers, water company as well as of course, and it's Wales water. And we run that for, and that's what you should own. You shouldn't sell these things off. We've sold so many things off now, uh, of, um, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 7:So unless if we speak about young people, I go back to this again. Um, can you say, well, um, you have had your own child who, and you see the young people nowadays, how they behave, how they are going to use, say, um, if you're not this and the differences between the young people of nowadays and the young people when you were a child, young person.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Well, you, we will not all familiar with older people. For instance, when you first started going to a pub, you behaved yourself because there are many older people, uh, there was no youth culture as such, and you didn't get your values from people equal to you got your values from older people, much more stable value, Israeli, uh, of honesty, oud to behave out, to behave in a pub, how to behave in a cafe and so on. But what does nowadays, they, they get their culture and beliefs from each other, which is not always good, actually some are wise and some aren't and some are well-behaved. And some certainly aren't, this is, this is what produces the gang culture. Of course. So that's, that's what I preferred. I preferred an age range and I certainly prefer an age range now as I got older.
Speaker 7:Um, so, uh, I want you to tell us, uh, how you became aware of, uh, globalism as an idea.
Speaker 8:Um, well, Tom Payne, of course, uh, the father of America always considered the father of America. He was a, his father was a Quaker or his mother was a Quaker. I can't remember what it was now. And, uh, so he was a great internationalist and that thing on the statue of Liberty, which was given by France to America has, and all the, to prop up their, uh, uh, constitution, uh, and focus them on freedom and things like that. And that give me your huddled masses. It says underneath is a direct quote from, uh, uh, Tom Payne, give me your huddled masses. And also we had a firm belief at one time, which I still believe capital won't go to the cheapest labor source. So people will always be exploited by, by, uh, the capitalist system. Well, what, what, what you need to do is instead of capitalist, going to the, you educate your children. So that capital is forced to come to, like, Rob is really a Hargreaves with a spinning Jenny. Uh, and I know that sounds outrageously stupid for anybody that knows English history, but I do believe that that if you educate your people to such a leg capital will come to you and you're in a stronger position to charge them as you want. Have I made sense too?
Speaker 7:Yes. Yes, it does. Of course. Thank you. Um, so if I asked you this, can you give some examples of people who, uh, inspired or inspiring,
Speaker 8:Uh, Jonah, the Bronte It's? Well, she's one of my heroes and she was, she fought off such terrible thing and a terrible thing at the end to happen to her, to find out about her marriage and, and, uh, Mrs. Rochester living up in there and was as mad as a Hatter. Uh, that was a terrible thing to happen to us. So I would father Jane air with a nice ending. Could you write a nice ending for me?
Speaker 7:Well, we, we need to think about it less. It is a good idea, you know, well, do you know, um, the book, a wide Sargasso sea, um, duties, um, it is the same story, but it is about Mrs. Rochester, not about Mr. James. It is such a beautiful story.
Speaker 8:It is for cheap. She is quite a girl in that. Isn't she?
Speaker 7:Well, yeah, it is a time when she gets married and how awful that was.
Speaker 8:And she attracts the man doesn't she? This was the trouble.
Speaker 7:Well, the trouble with Mr. Rochester in that story, uh, married for her, just for, for becoming a Reacher, that's it?
Speaker 8:Well, they'd been told hadn't he to, to find a wife. He thought he was making a good marriage, disastrous
Speaker 7:Marriage disaster. So, um, recently my daughter and I are watching the film and we then E and it is based on the book and the green Gables. I know it's lovely. Isn't it? It is. It is. Yes, it is so interesting.
Speaker 8:What are you reading the book or are you watching the DB? It's very, very good. Actually. I love it. And isn't the father lovely, and that he is such a solid man. And at one point he says to her, he says, I love you are part of our family. I love you. And that's all, she really wanted to be a part of that family, part of a family. And he says it to her and he says it in such a nice way.
Speaker 1:Where
Speaker 7:Do you find that helpful
Speaker 8:Young people? They will, they will stabilize us. They will be fine not to worry about the future. They'll be there. They'll do it
Speaker 7:To have a good future.
Speaker 8:Well, I think they will. They'll work it out for themselves. They're all, they've already got a youth culture that is very strong. So one should just admire it. Actually. I mean, the youth culture I grew up in was one of a consumption because for the first time we were targeted, not because we had a lot of money, but because we spent all our money. So hadn't S uh, the sixties came in with clothes and the food were targeted for the first time, simply because we spent all our money. It's not that we had a lot, but what we spent it all. Whereas as soon as people get mortgages and other things, they have to save that money for, they're not as easier targets as the,
Speaker 7:I would like to know, um, what lesson has life door to less one example?
Speaker 8:Well, one lesson that life has taught me, uh, well, light is stronger than darkness. That's one lesson I've learned to be light is strong, is stronger than darkness. That's my spiritual life.
Speaker 7:Okay. Last, um, one last question for you. What would you pass on to any young, personal teacher listening to this around the world?
Speaker 8:What I would pass her people around the world? Well, the one thing I've always liked with it's always been great luck with me is that the language gene seems to have gone, gone by with me. I don't know what it is. I was brought up in a Welsh household, but the headmaster said at that time, my father had no education. Cause he'd gone down the pets when he was 13. And the headmaster said, you should not speak well, should whole manual. Because if they come to the school here, there'll be doing Latin and doing Greek and there'll be doing English, um, part of phrase. So my language eventually slipped away from me, which is one of the great regrets I have because I never learned another language. And I think that the most important thing is to learn more than one language, because look how you are able to talk to me now. And it's fake. I think learning a language is the most important thing. I mean, Jen is a absolutely fluid French speaker and I love to watch her speaking French because she, they enjoy someone speaking in their languages. I enjoy you speaking to me. And, uh, they, and she enjoys speaking to them. So it is an enjoyable process. And I think if you teach a language, that's how you should teach it. That it's an enjoyable process. And I think what happened is that I knew somebody that learned the language and, uh, he learned, well, she actually, and although he wasn't Welsh and he said that he'd been, he knew various words in Welsh. Like I said, a he and a borrowed are, and the various words like that pronounce a whole vow and things. But he said that once you'd learned speak Welsh, well, sure enough. He said it was like, instead of being in a paddling on the shores, he could get out among the waves and absolutely what swim among great, huge thundering waves of literature, of wonderful poetry, because, you know, we are a nation of poets and, and, uh, he said it was like swimming in this, among these thundering waves. And I've never forgotten that and I'd think, well, that's the reason for learning a language that you can involve yourself in wonderful literature of the other country and so on instead of feeling forever limited by your own country,
Speaker 7:Um, I would like you to, um, tell us how we, your opinion does a day look like, well, the perfect day. Yes.
Speaker 8:All right. Uh, the perfect day would be in a garden. I would be when I had my big allotment, I had a double allotment. I don't know whether, you know, the allotment system in this country, legally, we there's, some local authorities is supposed to supply with allotment. But what I used to love was growing all the vegetables, the peas, the, the sawn, and my sisters used to come to see my allotment. And, you know, I love my sisters very much. And they used to, he used to eat the peas. I used to grow all of them and we've grown to over six foot tall. And you see the peas. I know, used to think other people would grumble, but I used to think, well, if I just really eat them raw, take them home and cook them. But, uh, they love, they love taking anything off their allotments and, uh, uh, uh, treating themselves to it in that way. And, um, that would be, my ideal would be by our Delta. My sister's there, of course, which can't happen now because my, uh, my oldest has died now.
Speaker 7:Well, I now understand why we are so good friends, uh, because I love spending time in my garden as well. And then do the mouse, the recreating part of the day, especially if I am after a long day of work.
Speaker 8:Yeah. It's wonderful. Isn't it? It does really new you and refresh you.
Speaker 7:So I think this is all from me. No more questions. It was so lovely to hear you last and spend some time together. I think I imagine where else, and when we feel the weird, uh, the fields feel the way with daffodils and, uh, snow drops and bits of snow on the Hills, also,
Speaker 8:They do that's exactly it, but Moldova's such a lovely country. I've learned to love. I've learned to love that country who have our crushing power.
Speaker 7:How about a message then if you were going to give a message to somebody who was just starting their teaching career, now, what would you say to them?
Speaker 8:Um, well, my message would be for young people and for people starting a career, fight your own battles, fight, whatever battle you've got and fight it with courage because everything will come all right for you. And, but don't fight battled from the past. This was one of the mistakes I think, uh, I made, I wanted, I want my father give up the son to put food on our table from down the pit, not the food didn't come from down the pet, but you know what I mean? And I was always wants you to fight, fight his battle on the strength of, um, I was a Methodist before I was a Quaker. And, uh, one of the things they've got from there is that I think it's Ecclesiastes is I'm not quite sure which the, the father eats sour grapes and the son's teeth are set on edge, but my father didn't want me to fight his battles for him. He was quite capable of fighting his own battles. He joined the union, he was as active as he needed to be. And then, although he was not a great political animal and, uh, but you need to fight what your current battle is. For instance, uh, I, I teach her a couple of young chaps now, and one of them started talking about the loan system and you know, this, this, uh, business where they say, uh, Oh, I don't want to end up in debt, go to the university and ended up in, actually they say, go to the uni, which I can't a word I can't stand. Actually. They're not allowed to say uni in my tutorials and they're not allowed to say, um, awesome. And they're not allowed to say cool. Uh, I think they've got to be a bit more articulate than that. And, um, but I say to them, uh, I asked them about this loan business of, they said he gave a very good answer. Uh, the one chap I was talking to, and he said, it was a very good system that first you don't pay it back until you you're earning certain amounts. And then although they, they will add interest to it. And so on, it's still, it was still a good bargain to cath. So instead of moaning and saying about how awful it was that you're going to end up in debt. And I have pointed out to people in the past that if you don't go to university, nevertheless, you've got, I mean, you will get into debt because you got to, you want to buy a car. You want to do certain things. You want to go on lovely holidays and things like that. So you couldn't have borrowed money anywhere. So your chances of being in debt by not going to university is just as high as you're going to university. But I thought that was quite good that he analyzed what was happening to him. That at that time, rather than to, um, uh, repeat, you know, Oh, it's awful. You would get into debt. And so on.
Speaker 5:What about advice then to, to a student to who's just about to start college? Uh, I think in my own son right now, uh, what would you say to him?
Speaker 6:Join everything. Just join, go along, join the religious group, see what they're up to join the writing groups, to see what they're up to join everything. The opportunity is there. And you, as I've said, you get your education. It is a hot as on coal, it's lateral, it's not vertical. So the more you are with people and exchanging views the better your education beat. It's no advantage to anyone, to a student, to the college, or what have you for you to go and sit in the library for three years, vegetating. So catch get yourself around, get yourself active, uh, play sport, whatever sport it is. I played football for the college and, uh, I played cricket for the college. Well, I said it was cricket. It was a team on a Sunday night. They went around and we played various villages, village greens on the village green and, um, err respective of, uh, the match dif it always ended at half a seven when the pubs opened. So by eight o'clock, we were top note singing. And, uh, I happened to have a wide range of Oxford songs and, uh, of rugby songs and weld songs. Of course we were, as I say, within half an hour, we would be top note and it was most enjoyable. The cricket didn't matter. It doesn't matter whether you get runs and so on. And so it's a wonderful, interesting game, like, uh, like a game of chess in whites. Um, but nevertheless, it gave you, I, I traveled all over Oxford, whether it's in some beautiful villages, uh, I mean, I love whales and I love the, the villages around here, but, um, I learned to love those down there to, to try to be as open-minded, as I could not to take my class prejudice anywhere. And I have plenty of that. I nurture that very often.
Speaker 5:It can be hard for children, young people or anyone really, but especially in the digital age where there's so much judgment and so much, so many reasons not to get involved or take up a course or, or a group. So what if somebody was nervous about that as somebody who was worried about, uh, you know, about taking the risk or being involved, how might they overcome that?
Speaker 6:Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, I find it hard now when my wife died, I had to turn up to choirs to sing
Speaker 8:And Kwanzaa. I didn't know people are people, I didn't know. There's one called wild angels played locally and they were pretty wild, but I turned up there and did it and it takes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I took even with my self-confidence, it took, took everything I had to actually turn up every week and do it, but I did. And I think the only thing you can do is attach yourself to someone or like me with plenty of confidence, plenty of brass neck, and you'll do it that way. And your math to sacrifice yourself a little bit to them. And as much you may have to supply the transport or buy them a bed afterwards or whatever it is, whether it be a financial thing, but attach yourself to someone like that, select one out there's always one or two around in a place. So do that.
Speaker 5:Uh, how about artwork then? What what's art men to, what does it meant to you? What does that meant to your life? You know? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about, about the impact that, that,
Speaker 8:Well, my first love is poetry and my love of poetry is RS Thomas at the moment, uh, a very difficult and awkward man, but wonderful poetry writes and, uh, uh, is such steps of meaning. And he lived, he was a minister. Eventually he moved to St. Peninsula. Uh, it, it left locally as well, but I never met him, but he, and it was painting interpretating, interpreting his work that spurred me on, um, for, um, like death of a peasant and things like this. So moved me. I'd also done coach slice under Mel cord. I did several paintings of that because it was one of the first things, uh, I wanted to do. And also a Fern Hill. I was talking about education earlier. I used to go to WLA classes, uh, organized by the WEA with the workers educational association, which doesn't it still functions, but I don't think it's as active as it was. And we had a tutor that he was down from Cambridge, brilliant man, Tony Dyson. And he used to travel from Bangalore across the whole of North Wales. And, uh, he, um, the first I heard Fern Hill a poem of international status and very, very moving point though. Those that don't know it's an, I wanted to paint that as well. So it was the inspiration came from elsewhere. Uh, I mean, I would love to do painting golf. Um, something of Jane Eyre who was one of my heroes on our show came such so many difficulties. And then to have that most terrible thing to happen to it at the end of a promise of marriage after being convinced that he did want to marry her and then that to happen. Anyway, if you don't know what I'm talking about, read Jane Eyre, you're, you're become a hero as well.
Speaker 5:So close the interview. Then there anything else that you'd like to share? Um, anything that we haven't covered so far,
Speaker 8:You've heard all of the Gresford disaster on the terrible price. It was paid 420 Paul Colliers as well, lost three men. Oh, the rescue brigade. My biggest contribution, I think to Oxford, apart from playing soccer, I suppose for, uh, the college was that I taught my year group to sing that song. And, uh, in the pub, we used to go to the East gate and be at the back there, the back bar there and the, the singing would come really good actually after a time. And that was one of the songs they loved to the shot fired to Tomlinson cried. If you below that shops will be all blown to hell. Nobody could say that he lied and various lines like that in it. And my friend Arthur was down from Wrexham to visit me at the college. And he went across to, uh, he went to Malden on your sense of the poster I'm visiting Lez Jones. And he said, well, he won't be in his rooms now it'd be across that in the bar, in East gate, in the bar, the back bar. So he came over and he was listening at the door and he could hear the aggressor disaster. And he said, Les Jones is in here. Cause it was always one of my songs that I'd song at various, uh, welfares and things like that. Well, we all knew it's actually. And, and, uh, uh, it's it's because some of these songs, you must remember, there were like, um, battle cries that da-dum, da-dum lockout, the blunt tired explosion and so on. And so they're like we sang them like accusations that people that look at the look at the way we have to live, look at the easy life you have of it. And so on spread your wealth, spread your wealth
Speaker 5:As it's been the complete privilege to have the interview today and to capture some of your thoughts. Um, I hope we do it justice. I'll put it together an episode and be able to share that, but thank you so much for the invitation and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4:[inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible] hi, Ned.[inaudible].