Toxic work environments seem to be all too common, and the virtual/remote workplace is no exception. Listen as Caitlin Magidson, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor (LCPC), Nationally Certified Counselor (NCC), and Certified Coach, describes the signs of a toxic virtual workplace and the strategies to handle it. She also shared shares signs to look for to possibly avoid taking a job in an organization with a toxic work culture.
Toxic work environments seem to be all too common, and the virtual/remote workplace is no exception. Listen as Caitlin Magidson, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor (LCPC), Nationally Certified Counselor (NCC), and Certified Coach, describes the signs of a toxic virtual workplace and the strategies to handle it. She also shared shares signs to look for to possibly avoid taking a job in an organization with a toxic work culture.
Melody Rawlings
0:02
Welcome to the Center for the Advancement of virtual organizations podcast, signs of a toxic virtual workplace and how to deal with it. I'm Melody Rawlings, Director of Cabo. And today I'm joined by Caitlin Madsen. Caitlyn is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, nationally certified counselor, and certified coach in private practice serving clients in the DC metro area and remotely around the US. Today, our discussion will focus on the signs you are in a toxic workplace, and strategies you can use to cope with it. Welcome, Caitlin, and thank you for taking the time to come and chat with me.
Caitlin Magidson
0:40
Hi, thanks so much. It's good to be here.
Melody Rawlings
0:43
Well, I am super interested in the topic of our conversation, since in the past, I have experienced the toxic work culture. But to get us started, would you please tell us about yourself?
Caitlin Magidson
0:54
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the topic. And especially because I work with a lot of clients who come into my office or my virtual office, if you will, and talk about, yeah, the difficulties they're having at work. So as you said, Yeah, my background, I am a licensed therapist, I work with individuals who are really high functioning, and at the same time, maybe experiencing stress, burnout, maybe some anxiety, anxiety, or depression. And I also am a certified coach and love working with clients, both in the corporate space, who are leaders and really wanting to gain more self awareness, so that they can perform at their peak level.
And then also individuals who are just maybe feeling stuck in life, it could be in their career, it could be in what they're creating in their relationships, really to do do that deeper internal work to get clear about what they value, what the vision, what's important to them, and creating a meaningful life, and then clearing any blocks that are coming up in moving forward. So I really love this work. It's really personal. And it's really transformational. So I really, I feel that it's an honor to work beside these clients might you know, the individuals I get to work with, and see that change is pretty, pretty exciting.
Melody Rawlings
2:11
Oh, that's awesome. What awesome work, and I'm sure very rewarding. And so needed. We live in pretty crazy times. That's for sure. And, and although I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with what a toxic workplace means, would you mind just defining it for us?
Caitlin Magidson
2:28
Yeah. And I think, you know, there can certainly be toxic behaviors that happen, it could be from an individual, or it could be spread across the entire company. But you know, toxic behaviors look like perhaps? Well, let's just say this there a toxic workplace in general is a is a place where there isn't a sense of psychological safety. Meaning, you know, do you feel safe to speak up? Do you feel safe to share ideas? If you feel that it's not a safe place, emotionally, and psychologically for you to share, then that's toxic, I would say, obviously, there are really negative behaviors like yelling, manipulation, bullying, if that's really intrinsic to the culture, that's obviously going to cause more stress, a lack of trust, maybe discrimination in an organization. So it could be a bunch of these different behaviors. But again, if it's a it's a pattern in the system, that that may be a culture that is not healthy.
Melody Rawlings
3:32
Well, so there are a lot of signs then that tell us that a workplace is toxic. And it seems like there's many articles written about the toxic workplace in general. But since the major shift to the virtual workplace, it seems that we're seeing more articles about a toxic virtual workplace. So how does a toxic virtual workplace climate differ from a toxic work climate like in the non unground? Organization?
Caitlin Magidson
3:58
Good question. You know, I think there are definitely some similarities we experience we've experienced over the last couple of years really no division between work and life, right work has come into our homes, into our kitchens into our living rooms. And so it can be difficult if there's not clarity around those boundaries. So I've worked with individuals who say like, I'm expected to answer email, on the weekends, or you know, in the middle of the night, there's not really clarity about where work stops and personal life, you kind of begins. So I think it's really important to get clear on what that looks like.
And if there's also it's sometimes difficult if there's not clear committed communication about even how do we talk together, right? It may be easier when you're in an office to pass by someone's office and say something but if there isn't clear communication that we're going to have regular one on ones we're going to have regular team meetings. Employees can feel really isolated and like they're in the dark, I remember working with someone recently who was a new employee at a company, he was totally virtual. And there really was no direction as to how he could, you know, meet other employees, there wasn't guidance, there wasn't like onboarding for him. And he really felt in the dark. So, you know, I think in the virtual environment, when people don't have access to other colleagues, there can be a sense of exclusion from meetings, maybe Slack channels.
And certainly, if you're a new hire, not knowing who to turn to, to, to understand your role. So, you know, obviously, with the virtual environment, we also have other channels of communications, you know, it could be in Slack, maybe some call outs or inappropriate jokes, those might be some areas that also make it a less comfortable and psychologically safe space to be in even when you're physically not there, there's still this connection and culture that you create online.
Melody Rawlings
6:07
Well, yeah, no one wants to be in that type of type of environment, right? No one wants to have that kind of culture, whether it's in the virtual setting or in the on the ground environment. So you know, so often, when we look back at situations, not necessarily this situation or toxic situation, but when we look back, we can often see hints or signs, you know, that we may have missed, what was indicated, or an indication of what was to come. You know, how we always say hindsight, is 2020. And that may not be the case in identifying a toxic work culture. But do you think it's possible to avoid an organization with a toxic culture? Like, for example, Are there signs that one might watch for during an interview to recognize or that you recognize something or something that might indicate that organization just might be toxic?
Caitlin Magidson
7:03
Yeah, I definitely think there are some, there are some things that you can ask in an interview, of course, you're not there. So you don't fully know. But, you know, you can ask questions, like, for example, what is what is, uh, you know, the, the tenure? Or how long the duration of an employee here, right? Is there high turnover, you may be able to find some of that online, whether it's glass door, or some other other platforms where there's some feedback about the culture.
You know, you could ask questions about employee engagement, right? You know, for example, how, how does? How do people spend time together? Is it outside of work? You know, do Are there ways that you, for example, celebrate accomplishments and wins? Right, asking, you know, for example, how does the company promote growth and development? So asking some of those questions will help you get a sense of what's a priority? And what the company values? Certainly, you can ask, what is the company culture like? You know, I know some organizations, for example, they monitor all of the computer use, does that facilitator cultivate a sense of trust in the organization? Or are you going to be really monitored? Very closely, you could ask what is the leadership style of the manager that I would report to? So asking some of those questions could be beneficial to kind of get a sense of what is important to the organization. And it could also be helpful to talk with other employees, right? You could certainly reach out through LinkedIn, or you could even ask in an interview, could I talk with a few of the employees that I would be working with, just to get a sense and to get some data points, and see if there are any themes or patterns to be aware of?
Melody Rawlings
8:57
Those are great questions and great ideas for trying or you know, for to kind of investigating to see if an organization does have a toxic culture. And so often, I think when we're looking for a job, I think we forget that we are vetting the company, just as they are betting us. And so we certainly don't want to take a job for the sake of taking the job. So we must do our homework. And those are just some great ways that you mentioned to see if the organization is a good fit for us.
Caitlin Magidson
9:26
Exactly. Yeah, that's such a great point. I think oftentimes, when you're wanting a job, it's easy to think I hope they want me right, but just in any other relationship, you also have to decide, is this a fit for me? Whether it's a toxic culture or not, you want to think about what are my values? What's important to me in a workspace, what's going to light me up, energize me, and if you determine that those things aren't there, it's an important thing to remember that you don't have to say yes, you can get an offer. You can get several offers. And you can say thank you so much. Ah, this doesn't feel like a fit at this time, I think sometimes we have a tendency to rule things out too quickly. So you can go all the way through an interview, get an offer, and still decide it's not a fit. So I think that research part is really key to feeling confident that you are moving into something that is aligned and healthy versus not
Melody Rawlings
10:21
totally agree. Absolutely. And it's, it's empowering to realize that, when you do get the offer, you have the power to say no, if it's not going to be a good fit, and I'm afraid that there's times when we say yes, and then we look back and wish we hadn't the old adage, be careful what you wish for. So yeah, unfortunately, some of our listeners may be currently working in a toxic work environment. And for those who are or may in the future, could you share some strategies they might use to deal with it? Or even change it?
Caitlin Magidson
10:53
Yeah, if you're wondering, Am I in a in a, in a toxic culture? Or am I experiencing things that aren't typical? I mean, it could be helpful to also talk with other people in the industry is what you're seeing in your workplace, typical, or you know, just to get some outside perspective, because sometimes we, you know, think that what we're experiencing is normal, or it might be us, it could be easy to blame yourself for what's going on. I mean, if there's a lot of gaslighting in your organization, it can be really confusing, or it can fuel self doubt, right. So for example, if a leader is asking you to do a project a certain way, and then you share it, and then they say, Well, I told you to do it a different way, that can be really confusing.
So it's important to talk with others, so that you don't take on more than is really your responsibility. But I think it's important to make sure that you are really clear about advocating for yourself. And what I mean by that is asking for what you need. Clear is kind I remember working with a client. And she she was really resentful of the work hours and how much work she had. She was thinking about leaving the company. And I said, Well, you know, have you asked for clarity on what the hours of working are? Or, you know, what's the expectation? Or what did you sign up for? And she said, Well, I haven't, she was afraid that if she asked there that would be causing conflict. And she didn't actually ask for what she needed at work. And she's, she, I remember her saying a few weeks after that, that she had a meeting with her, her supervisor and her supervisor said, Please tell me, if there's anything I can do to make your work better, because we really want to keep you and she still couldn't speak up, she still felt like it was going to be cause a conflict, to ask for what she wanted. So sometimes I think it's important to recognize when we are creating or living into stories that maybe are not actually true, right, we all have our own experiences that inform how we show up and how we see the world.
But sometimes it's a mirror, and it's not really truth. So she was creating in her mind, that she was not, you know, valued at work supported. But the reality was that she was in creating this internal story that she couldn't ask and that, you know, she didn't have any choice in it. So to be clear, to be clear about really, what is your what's your responsibility for your part in the dynamic, and then what is actually happening, you know, if you ask for something, and you're you continue to be denied of it, or it's not clear, then you also know there are things that are outside of your control. So I also think setting boundaries, right? If there's an agreement between you and another colleague about how you're going to work together on something you want to, you know, talk about the agreement be really clear about the boundaries, Get really clear about the arrangement.
With work, I've worked with people who are again, not sure about the work hours, they're afraid to ask, especially virtually Well, I could be answering email all the time. You know, what's the expectation? Are you going to get paid extra if you pit you know, are working extra hours? So I would also say that as you're navigating a difficult, stressful time at work, you want to be really deliberate about your self care strategies. How do you reduce stress? Do you make sure that you take lunch in another space, you go outside for a walk? Because again, there are things that you're in control of, to either increase the stress or reduce it? Just like we also have control of our inner inner self talk? Are we being really really critical of ourselves, or are we being really compassionate so that we create an inner peace you know, if our extra In a world is not so peaceful.
Melody Rawlings
15:03
You've raised such great points. And I had never really thought about what we construct in our own minds. And that is just so insightful. Because sometimes we are our own worst enemy. And if we don't take action, or at least go and ask like you, like you said, then we don't know. And then then maybe it is a product of our own imagination. And I know at least I'll speak for myself sometimes I imagine the worst case scenario and it just seems it just tends to grow in my mind. And then when I go and actually talk through it with some, you know, with the person, that's other person, or persons, it's not anywhere near the escalation that I in my mind imagining imagined it to be. So that's such a great, great point. And, um, you know, people none of us are mind reader's. So we can't expect our our managers or our leaders to be mind reader's either. So it is so important to just go and have this conversation. Such great, great points.
Caitlin Magidson
16:05
Yeah, yeah, I think it takes a lot of self awareness to be curious about the thoughts that are coming up. Not all thoughts are facts. So we really have to kind of pop out of them, be aware, and decide if that's truth, or we want to get more information from a colleague about what they meant when they sent that email, instead of just quickly responding from a place of fear or scarcity. Right. I think we can take care of ourselves better as we navigate those relationships.
Melody Rawlings
16:35
Exactly. Exactly. Well, Caitlin, you have shared such helpful information. Are there any closing thoughts you would like to leave with us? And also how our listeners can connect with you?
Caitlin Magidson
16:47
Yeah, I think I, you know, when I'm thinking about this topic of toxic workplaces, I think it's important to recognize the difference between the culture and specific individuals that are perhaps demonstrating behaviors that are not productive or healthy. You know, if you find that you know, the manager you're working with the team that you're working with, it just doesn't feel like a very healthy spot to be in, you may want to consider also, maybe how could you transition into another department, maybe easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you may want to slow it down and consider are there other options here? Are there are there ways that I can get my needs met, maybe your manager isn't someone who is going to be your go to mentor, but maybe there's another mentor or sponsor in the organization that really can balance out some of your experience.
So consider what's going well, and see what and ask yourself what you need. And there may be a way to create some shifts, so that you can stay if you overall do feel like you like where where you are. So I think just again, breaking it down, slowing down is really important. And if you discover it's not then start to plan your exit strategy, I think that is really good self care and start to make a plan. Oftentimes, I also suggest that people keep their job unless it is really an unsafe space to be in, keep your job while you're looking for something else. So that you don't have that added stress of finding a new job at you know, just to pay the bills, but then be really thoughtful and intentional about planning out your next your next steps so that it really is more in alignment with what you're looking for. So anyway, I love this conversation. And I love you know, thinking about how we can also work on ourselves to not demonstrate some of those toxic or negative behaviors. And so I love doing that work with clients that there is more self awareness, there's some acceptance, some self forgiveness, and then you know, strategies to move forward. So always happy to connect with anyone, you know, looking to get some clarity, you can find me on my website, Caitlin magazine.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, always happy to connect and and be a resource.
Melody Rawlings
19:07
Awesome. Well, we will be sure to include your website on the description of this podcast when it is published. So they can connect with you there and find your website there. And also, as you mentioned on LinkedIn as well. It's just been a pleasure chatting with Caitlin Madson. Thank you for joining us in support of the Center for the Advancement of virtual organizations. We greatly appreciate your insights and know our listeners will benefit from your expertise. Thank you so much, Caitlin.
Unknown Speaker 19:36
Thanks so much.