In 2022, hybrid work policies were front and center as organizations rushed to normality through a return to the office. In this episode, Melody Rawlings, CAVO director, welcomes Rowena Hennigan, remote work expert and founder of @RoRemote, a remote skills training and consultancy company, and CAVO visiting virtual expert. Their discussion centers on the need for workers to heal from the stress of being forced to work from home because of the pandemic and the response to hybrid work policies.
In 2022, hybrid work policies were front and center as organizations rushed to normality through a return to the office. In this episode, Melody Rawlings, CAVO director, welcomes Rowena Hennigan, remote work expert and founder of @RoRemote, a remote skills training and consultancy company, and CAVO visiting virtual expert. Their discussion centers on the need for workers to heal from the stress of being forced to work from home because of the pandemic and the response to hybrid work policies.
Melody Rawlings
0:02
Welcome to the Center for the Advancement of virtual organizations podcast trends that shaped virtual work in 2022. I'm Melanie Rawlings, Director of Cabo and today I'm joined by Rowena Hannigan, founder of row remote, a remote skills training and consultancy company. She is a remote work expert, university lecturer, and global thought leader in remote work and digital nomadism. Rowena has been the Cabo visiting Virtual expert for our last quarter of 2022. And today we're discussing some of the key outcomes of remote work in 2022. Welcome, Rowena. And thank you so much for taking the time and come and chat with me.
Rowena Hennigan
0:43
A pleasure to be here, melody, and thank you so much for the invitation.
Melody Rawlings
0:47
Absolutely. So I'm very anxious to dive into our topic today. But to get us started, would you just share some information about yourself with us?
Rowena Hennigan
0:57
Sure. I'm a adjunct faculty with technological university Dublin. I've been an in person, professor and lecturer there for over 10 years. But now I'm fully remote for the last five and a half years, based in the north of Spain. My research and teaching area is future of work and remote work skills on there with the team of wonderful colleagues, academic colleagues, we have two academically accredited, remote work skills courses in within Europe. And one of them is one of the biggest ever remote work skills course that exists that academically accredited in European Union.
And that particular course was released during the pandemic, for the Irish health service for all the people and wonderful workers that were sent home during the pandemic. And we were really delighted myself and my colleagues to enter in a big rush as quickly as we could get that course online for them through an open source model. And it meant that we could help support them whilst they were working from home for the 18 months during the pandemic. So that's, that's a little bit about my academic work. But I also, as you said, have role remote, which is a solopreneur, business, consulting and training, thought leadership on remote work.
And I run that with a freelance team, wonderful freelance team, based in five countries around the world, from Colombia, to Ethiopia, my team, and I'm delighted as part of that to be able to work on really good content and training and reports for various clients globally. And yes, here in Spain, in a little northern part of Spain is how it goes. So not many people know it. But what I do day to day, and my work really, really shows that you can, you can work globally via remote work and make an international impact.
Melody Rawlings
2:51
That's great. And, and I like you, I am fully remote. And so of course, you being in this in this role to perfect Peru to support professionals who are working remotely in and also in a hybrid format, I'm always got my finger on the pulse of what's going on in the virtual world of work. And so I'm just really, really anxious to hear some of your answers to the questions that I have for you today. So, you know, some of the most memorable events or trends that that stand out in my mind from 2022, as we look back, that are related to the virtual work environment, or the return to the office and the new paradigm of hybrid work, we also have the great resignation and quiet quitting. So what impact do you believe that each of these have had on virtual work?
Rowena Hennigan
3:40
I think it's fascinating to firstly start off and really lay it down on the line that what people experienced during the pandemic was a version of remote work. It was working from home in a crisis, with a lot of things forced on various workers. And this emergence throughout 2022 has thrown up a lot of things to analyze and look at, but I wouldn't yet call them total trends, because I think we're in reactive mode. And I think we're in recovery mode from the pandemic, because a pandemic has been such a catalyst to all of this. So what do I mean by that?
What I mean is that I'm not sure I would say we're going to see everything going on the same way. I think hybrid is going to be redefined into the next couple of years, because hybrid, and even remote first has been misunderstood. And I think we're also going to see a lot less media profile, hopefully, on a lot of sort of clickbait melody type reporting about things like why quitting, quite quitting was always something that actually refused in my content to even address it, because I feel that it was very much the media trying to do drum up some interest about something that a lot wasn't really that relevant, it was workers who was simply disengaged, not to the full extent, due to the pandemic recovery.
And due to the fact that we were asking a lot of a lot from workers coming, you know, coming out of COVID. So that one I'd like to park because I'm not sure that there is that much, there is that much real insight to be garnered from trying to overanalyze the level of engagement of a worker, particularly when the previous periods, especially for knowledge workers, they were forced into a situation where they couldn't move or they couldn't quit, because they were simply surviving a global pandemic, being working from home and feeling forced to do that, in a lot of cases, surrounded by that, then we have obviously had the economic stress, and therefore a lot of companies are struggling with establishing leadership again, and finding their feet. And again, they're recovering from the pandemic, they're recovering from a very stressful situation, which the media has forgotten about.
But believe me, in my day to day work individually, with clients, and with companies, there is still memory out there under still a lot of healing to be done. So that in that case, where people potentially rushing to normality and rushing to get back to the office, which a lot of leaders felt then that they needed to control and regain their control, and show their control via and the onslaught of hybrid policies, which were not the least bit flexible, which were all about mandating js and control and predictability of who would be where and when, in a hybrid model, actually, then cause chaos, no surprise, because what the hybrid models then lost was the core reason and why remote work exists is the hybrid models lost the foundational flexibility that workers want. And the hybrid models also lost via that mandating.
And via that element of control that came in from senior leaders and certain organizations, they also lost an impacted autonomy for those workers, because they questioned from what was previously a place of trust, and supported autonomy. They questioned their belief in their workers by mandating the time back and up in the office, the when, and the where, so therefore, we just, you know, we see we've seen so much, and I really think there's going to be some of these trends will will disperse, and some threads will start to, to filter a true malady. And we're going to see a very, very different, not so much 2023. But I think 2024 25, because my main message for 2023 is still this piece of recover recovery and letting the dust settle post pandemic.
Melody Rawlings
8:04
You are so right, we are still in reactive mode, for sure. And perhaps Yes, I struggled with the word trend trends, just because it's more reactive practices, right? What we're trying, we're trying to find some some sense of normalcy are, you know, we're creatures of habit and trying to find something that abnormal that we can count on the consistency and the day to day, I guess things that we can rely on for consistency in our day to day work.
And so I do agree with you completely. And you touched on so many things that I would love to just I wish we had, you know, lots of time I would love to dive into so we might have to do another podcast at some point. But But trying to just you mentioned trust, just trying to rebuild trust, and in which is so incredibly important without you know, without trust. I mean, that's just that just underpins everything. And so, again, you just touched on so many things. So thank you. And then consideration of these reactive practices, if we, if we will, where do you believe that virtual work stands presently.
Rowena Hennigan
9:14
So I believe that we've taken definitely some steps forward but a couple of steps back in terms of the learnings from the pandemic. And and as you say, these reactive practices, melody in some cases have turned into habits again. So what happens when we've we established this tug of war, potentially without the right knowledge, insights and supports in an organization is we will get people it's human nature digging in. And to give you a light on that I have attended and run workshops where I've heard comments like why do we have to be remote our first virtual first I want to be in the office Every day, so why can't we be office first or hybrid first.
So there's a misunderstanding there that if even someone is remote, and you've decided to embrace a transformational digital project across your organization, which is the case in nerdy, all modern knowledge worker organizations, that therefore, there will be inequalities, if you don't, don't look at it and know all the other research shows that we, you know, we have presenteeism, we have bias, and all the rest of it. So, there is a really, it's really cliche, but I'm gonna say it hybrid is really hard. And it's simply like trying to mix alkaline, you know, with dairy based or whatever, it's really hard, because it's two different completely different models, if you run off having a traditional office setup, plus a remote first view on that, and therefore, I do think there'll be more understanding and consolidation and that melody going forward. Hopefully, some of the people listening will choose to avoid the clickbait media, and we're hearing and as they get curious, start to read properly and more extensively on the full organizational design needed for remote first, and therefore, that knowledge in leadership circles will extend and build. Today, I read a wonderful article, and we can share it in the notes from BBC here in the in Europe, and the head of the head of Coursera.
I believe his first name is Joe, I can't remember his surname. It did, of course, they're out of California in America, he was a self proclaimed dinosaur, anti remote, pre pandemic. And now after a lot of training, mindset change, a lot of reading, he is a remote first advocate, he's changed. And he's put his hand up and said, I was not a fan a few years ago, I get it. Now. I've re educated myself. I've looked for that growth mindset. And I do believe we've we've got leading case examples, not from the established remote first sector, we've got them from places like Coursera, which were in, in a office model, we've also got Dropbox is quite a famous one at the moment. Vistaprint, globally would be another one, there's quite a lot of these organizations who have made the transition very successfully. And they've brought in someone responsible, like add of remote, or head of remote operations, which is often the key to success, to lead up that function and to drive the change with the change management view across their organization melody, and we can see those stories.
So my answer is where are we We're still learning joined to make sure I answer we're still learning but we're we've got better case examples. So my message to people there is read widely read extensively, and read with concentration. So I really recommend and we can share in the notes, two or three seminal books that you can read cover to cover which talk about exactly how to do remote first and organizations that get lab humbug you don't have to dive into the whole thing, get lab on Coursera have a course you can complete, which doesn't take that long I often recommend it and other places like obviously cover look to read look to look to podcasts, where you dive into the different things mentioned that may resonate like what is the organizational design needed for remote first, you may also be stimulated by things like what are the business models?
What exactly should I be defining my business model as and read up about inequality within hybrid and therefore you will understand why so much hybrid can go wrong. Because it creates at the most basic level at them and us if it isn't managed extremely carefully.
Melody Rawlings
14:09
That's such great advice is to read widely read deeply and focus and concentrate and really think it through and don't always believe everything you read right. I think we do have to be careful. But I'm so glad to hear people that were not remote work advocates before the pandemic were basically as you said he was self proclaimed on sore and then they've come around to seeing the the advantages and how remote work can work and not just work but work very well. And so I am a huge remote work advocate. I work remotely I love it.
And so I'm always glad to hear when people who before did not see the value or did not would did not advocate for it. Come on all the way around and come full circle and see that it is it is very, very viable way to work. So, so glad to hear that. And I do also hear a lot from people experts in remote work about the challenges with hybrid work. And it is the hardest, some people, some people may not realize that, but it does come with even more challenges as for many reasons that you stated. And so that leads me to my next question. What about stress working virtually? And I hear I do hear that a lot. So can you share with the with us? Your thoughts on stress in the virtual workplace?
Rowena Hennigan
15:39
Oh, well, I have a I have a lot to say on this one because one of my specialist areas as well being and I work with a lot of insurance companies believe it or not work with a global one. And with an Irish UK based one supporting their home and remote workers within their employee benefits packages, to work healthily when they choose to work remotely. And so for me, this is Atlanta, and I have a team that delivers into those different clients. For me, it's a really interesting topic. And I'm going to remind you what I said at the very start of the interview when I said working from home only in a crisis is not really true remote work.
So Melody you say you remote or remote work can you choose today in Zara, go. So I'm in a co working space, I mean a lovely podcast room, which is all kitted out, so that I can do this and other professional level that costs me 180 euros. I don't know what that equates to $2 a month to rent the space here have access to the rooms, it is very different to work, just work from home to true remote work. And when we talk about well being, I often like to get across the point that it might have suited you today to work from home. But another day, you may need fresh air and you may need to get outside another time that might be noise in your building. Another time. You know you've someone sick in your family that you need to go and support. You need to jump in a car and transport and you need to get to them.
Can you still work from there? Yeah, that's true remote work. And many, many companies I was with the head of remote from a company over the weekend and her company, a European company, give a stipend support their workers to use co working spaces every month via expenses. And it's an emerging area where people are beginning to realize that remote work doesn't equal work from home only. And when we move around and have the ability to move around, we suddenly add in the potential for activity movement, better mental health boundaries, because some of us are working from home when home is stressful, because that's what happens. So we've got bleeding that happens between the work boundary and The Home Bar boundary. We have the disability to disconnect that sometimes happens to people. And thirdly, the biggest one of the biggest risks other than overworking.
And again, if you separate work your workspace from your home space, you can put in those boundaries so you don't overwork. Secondly, the biggest known challenge statistically, the World Health Organization, as quoted this year, is the potential that remote and home workers can be lonely or isolated, or lack social connection. So when I come into my co working, I have someone to have coffee with, I have friends that I can ask to help with things. I meet someone at the printer or I meet someone at the coffee dock. So all of these things shared spaces can provide for us. So when the topic of well being I think it's really really interesting to look at that misinterpretation of remote work is homeworking only, and to let your listeners know that globally in the remote first companies.
And when I was with this week, as I said one of the leaders from there, they actually actively encourage their workers to go and try co working spaces to use them. They give a they give financial help to it. And they also really encourage people to meet up regularly and have co working days together either in cafes or in shared spaces. So wellbeing is a huge area. But fundamentally for me and what we don't see in the media, we will see pictures of people sleeping in offices, because that gives that a nice negative coverage for a certain person that's running to Internet. But we don't see beautiful photos of amazing community spaces where neighborhoods have been regenerated. And people can find social connection and support without a major commute in their local neighborhood area through a co working space. So that's one of the key things I I would like to highlight on this session as well on this interview is that all of these spaces, the third spaces, they're called, I believe now in the states are emerging. And it's a fabulous and can be a fabulous support to work, our well being.
Melody Rawlings
20:16
You're so correct on that the co working spaces is very much vital, I think to to being a part of work of working remotely. And while I do work from home, I love having the ability, and I do move around. And I've worked from Europe, not for long term basis, but I've worked from there. And I've also worked from different parts of the US. And so I do very much value that and agree with you that that's really important. And because working from home can be super stressful, depending on your environment, I have a really nice setup at my home.
And I'm very fortunate, and it's very conducive to whether it's podcast or Zoom meetings are whatever I'm, whatever I'm doing, and it works out really nicely for me. But I recognize that some people may be in a building where there's a lot of noise they can't control. And so it does make it make it make it challenging, makes it stressful. So appreciate all of those. All of your thoughts on that and your insight there. So and totally understand that that with my situation at least. And so you've already touched on a lot of the challenges in virtual work that that were encountered in 2022. Do you do you have anything further on? Like, what would you name is the very, very top challenges if you were having to name one or two? And then? And also, should we should we expect those same challenges to continue into 2023? and beyond?
Rowena Hennigan
21:44
Certainly so I think I think with the economic pressure that's on at the moment, on everyone that squeezes on everyone, I think that we'll see that there's still going to be lack of focus, push and resource put behind. And leaders will be stretched even further than before, because of that economic pressure on the organizational transition design models strategy, support and implementation needed for a good remote first project being implemented and company wide. So I think that's going to cause that double impact melody, where essentially, people are going to be so busy trying to survive this global economic recession, cost of living crisis, etc.
That unfortunately, because the need for someone or a resource or a department or person responsible, as as always existed, especially if you're a traditional company moving to remote, obviously that remote First, from established from the get go, companies have a different view on that. And they normally have their leadership team responsible cross functionally for that. So they are probably okay, but the others are going to struggle, because they simply will not have the means. But I would like to say that there's a lot of evidence coming through for the role of fractional or consultant type roles for remote for us. And I see more and more of them happening in my network. And I do see signs have a better appreciation of those remote work models. And I do think the pen is beginning to drop that if you mandate if you force if your fundamental model is not flexible, that you will have people quitting you will have worker discontent. It will impact culture longer term.
There's one other thing in the virtual overall macro virtual trends I'd like to mention, I know it's a little bit different in Northern America, but I still know that you're aware globally of this shift. And that's the move to freelance working on the move to a lot of people who are quite quitting or other otherwise are walking away globally, from an employer based job now looking at the potential to work from anywhere globally. And I have been asked to speak on that. There is a lot of positive data coming through. Of course, in obviously in America, we need to take care of the need for health insurance, and the expense of that which often people rely on a full time employer for it. But globally, there's a massive shift.
And one of the biggest trends that I will call a trend out of all of them is the freelance revolution. And the fact that people have realized that if they can work from anywhere with an entrepreneurial hat on that they can be the masters of their own destiny and that through very big platforms like we know some of them Upwork etc. They can start to build freelance or side hustle or a side gig projects, build a portfolio and therefore With the recent wave of layoffs, they can protect themselves to an extent from economic turbulence. So there are my three observations there. And I think it's worth mentioning that freelance on certainly melody,
Melody Rawlings
25:15
so glad that you mentioned that because I am hearing about that little bit, but you really should, that should add some good insight there. And I think we agree with you, we will hear more and more about the freelancing as as we kind of shift in our essence should say sift and kind of start seeing some, maybe some settling of dust, if you will, not to use the to use a term that probably is not doesn't seem maybe applicable, but it is because the dust is settling on, I think, um, what may be the future of what normal looks like, and if I'm, if that has any meaning, but I know what I want to say here, but not getting it out very well. So just I'm glad to hear you say some positive that there are some positive things happening.
And that I hope we can get to a place where remote work is is widely accepted as normal, and is widely accepted as a good practice and is productive. And it's beneficial, not, you know, to everyone, all the stakeholders, not just the people who want to work remotely, but to the employers and and the other stakeholders that are involved. So thank you so much for that information. And Rowena, this has just been such an informative conversation. Are there any closing thoughts you would like to leave with us?
Rowena Hennigan
26:45
Just because we didn't, as you did that recap, and I was thinking back so that we missed it, it's just I don't think we got a chance to highlight it fully. The secondary impacts, or sometimes called secondary impacts, from the macro view, of remote and virtual work, manatee are some of the things that have the media have missed, there's been a few bits of rays of sunshine in 2022, there was a couple of articles that came out about how disabled workers lives are changed by access to remote work, also around refugees, and displaced people's access to remote work. And obviously, as a, as a I have myself access to remote work when I really needed it when my daughter was ill as a as a baby. And it kept me in the labor force.
So I've got a particular personal interest in that. And there's been more and more messages coming out as well about these other community groups or other workforce groups, that remote work is an economic lifeline for them. And their voices have started to be heard more, and media's covering the more. And that that's one area I really, really like leaders to think about, you cannot have a policy on diversity and inclusion, maybe a little bit on CSR as well, or sustainability. If you don't realize that remote work ticks a lot of these boxes in terms of providing access to people who wouldn't normally be able to apply for jobs via remote work working from home, again, that disabled part of our global community potentially, and also, of course, that the carbon emission, save by no commutes, etc, etc. really lean into CSR, so many leaders listening that can see that wider impact and benefits of remote work, that's going to be something that gets more features.
When the war news stops melody when people stop talking about this fight of who's going to the office and who isn't. We might start case who's going back or not and the fight that's going on, and the mandate, we might start to get more balanced reporting about those other things that can remote work can really support and do which have gotten lost a bit. So that was one was just the one I wanted to finish on. Because sometimes we're in my work, working with people making a big business case for remote work at a leader level. Sometimes it's those things that really flesh out and really support that bigger picture. And that company in its values can say, well hang on, we say we are diverse and inclusive, you know, for not offering fully remote positions. Actually we're not you know, as well.
So it's like so there's also our if we're not thinking that by having this fixed office space rather than a flexible one, we are significantly reducing our co2 emissions and we're beginning to lean into our CSR overall CSR goals. So I'm just adding a few more bits of food for thought obviously, I am biased myself of like humanity. So so we we have to be Be aware. But I mean, the final thing I'd like to say to listeners is obviously, if you need arguments can reach out if you need to arguments. Because I actually do also have some good, good information on the return on investment, and other things like that from case studies that can often help people when they're trying to put in a position or business model or a business, or ROI piece for a leadership team that they're trying to convince. But yeah, we've covered so much it's been really good melody to organize my thoughts at the end of the year. So thank you.
Melody Rawlings
30:37
Absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought that up. So thank you for bringing that into the conversation. And one, one thing I do want to say that just occurred to me I never really thought about before is the parallel between remote work and online education. So we saw that major, you know, that shift happened, and it took, you know, it did take years for people to really accept online education. But it made me think of online education because of what you were saying about how people it's, it's their lifeline to be able to work remotely. That's that's maybe the only way they can do it. And for some students, that's the only way they can attend to attend class. And further education is through online education or online classes. So I think there's a there's a kind of a parallel there.
Rowena Hennigan
31:21
So totally, totally an access to education is a human right. And we've seen a lot of coverage on that, with different trailblazers and global stories, but access to work as a human right as well. Melody in the United Nations Convention. So like, it's really interesting to look at it from that perspective that you the economic, socio economic, but also from a human rights perspective, to go even to that level, that as a company offering knowledge or knowledge, work and working digitally. Are you missing something that you don't think that some of your roles which could be remote, could be offered in that way? And I just Yeah, I find it fascinating with the different court cases in relation to the Twitter stories, the one, the only one that caught my main, or the main one that caught my attention was one of the disabled workers who is now looking at a lawsuit because of discrimination.
Who could who had previously remote worked. So, again, whether these will set precedent, I don't know. But in closing, whatever, we can talk about leadership theory, we can talk about all these things that people are listening for, but I'm just really hoping going forward, that those minority voices who are not minority anymore, some of them didn't have any work before the pandemic, now they can access work, or they could during the pandemic, and they have new opportunities that anyone listening remembers them remembers our planet in the environment. When you think about remote work, whether it be hybrid version of it with remote forests, across the strategy, you are doing many other things to support the planet we live on. And to be inclusive, diverse and sustainable.
More than a lot of people realize. So they sit down and look at the list of benefits. So that's all I'm encouraging people to do. Research well, and read well, like we said during the session, really invite people to do that. And as I said, I'll give a reading list melody we can supply in the notes. And if people want to reach out via my website role remote.com track me down on LinkedIn, subscribe to my newsletter. And there's lots of interesting articles weekly there. But also, nearly most of my work is related to evidence based data is I would my academic outline it has to be and yeah, I'm happy to answer direct questions on LinkedIn, or via my website if anyone wants to pick my brains.
Melody Rawlings
34:02
Awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure chatting with Rowena Hannigan. Thank you for joining us in support of the Center for the Advancement of virtual organizations. We greatly appreciate your insights, Rowena and we know our listeners will benefit from your expertise.
Rowena Hennigan
34:17
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.