A couple’s success story: Dr. Megan McNamara and Dr. Angela Beck discuss the support they received during their doctoral journey within the School of Education at Northcentral University. Advice and helpful tips for prospective and current doctoral students are also discussed.
A couple’s success story: Dr. Megan McNamara and Dr. Angela Beck discuss the support they received during their doctoral journey within the School of Education at Northcentral University. Advice and helpful tips for prospective and current doctoral students are also discussed.
ETHE Ep 30
00:03
Hello, welcome to emerging trends in higher ed. I'm Samantha Wilcox, your host for this podcast series. I will be your host for today's special podcast entitled Dr. And Dr. A couple of success story. I have the privilege to be with Dr. Megan McNamara and Dr. Angela Beck. Both recent graduates of NCU School of Education doctoral program. I'm also with Dr. Andy Riggle, Dean of the School of Education, as well as at school of education professors, Dr. Maggie Broderick and Dr. Janet Stricklin. Hello to you all. And thank you so much for joining us today. Today, we'd like to share a little bit about Dr. McNamara and Dr. Beck's journey as an MCU doctoral student in the school of education. But before we get started, congratulations to both Dr. McNamara and Dr. Beck for an outstanding accomplishment. Job well done. So Dr. Riggle, can you start us off? I believe you have a few questions for our recent graduates, before turning it over to Dr. Roderick. And Dr. Strickland.
01:10
Thanks, Sam. Yes, I certainly do have some questions for our distinguished guests. I cannot wait to get started. But first, I would like to briefly share a little bit about how I first met both Megan and Angela. As some of you may know, we get into you regularly conduct face to face support sessions throughout the year to assist students with their dissertations. As these sessions are affectionately referred to as boot camps, Megan and Angela attended a boot camp. And I must say they both were full of energy, professionalism, and a killer drive to complete their doctorates. I was so impressed with their willingness to engage, to learn and to never stop trying all needed characteristics of a successful doctoral student. Recently, I learned both Megan and Angela completed their doctorates nearly at the same time. So let me jump right into it. Are you too ready? Looking back doctors McNamara and back, what were some of the reasons why you chose NCU to earn your doctorate?
02:12
I, you know, I think it's been a lifelong journey or dream, actually, to get my doctorate, I told myself at a very early age that I would have my doctor by age 30. So when 30 happens, and I didn't have my doctorate, then I just was like, okay, bucket list, like not happening. Um, and, you know, it was just something that I just always was, like, didn't feel complete in my educational journey not having that doctor. And so, you know, when we got to opportunity, and Dr. McNamara was very big with making this happen with specifically NCU. So I'm gonna let her answer that portion of the question. But, um, you know, it was just, it was a great opportunity. And we were very excited. And I felt like I could accomplish this dream that I had not fulfilled by the age of 30. In my head, right?
03:08
Yeah, no, I think that that sounds that sounds about right. So we were had the opportunity in a group of 10 of us through some support through our organization to start the program. And I thought, what better than to do something where we can all, you know, jump in and kind of, you know, at our own pace time, and be able to start? So Angela and I were part of a group of 10. And I think three in the end who had completed either masters or doctorates. So yeah, it was definitely something it was on both of our bucket lists. And interestingly enough, both of our dads kept asking us every time we saw them, they say, Are you done with school yet? You know, you're in education. Are you going to?
03:49
Aren't you going to get your doctorate? When are you getting your doctorate? So we do sort of feel like we started it off for them. And so then we didn't like them so much as the work got harder. But we're back to thinking they're okay. And they're very proud of us. So that was probably the best part about it.
04:07
So if I understood this right, first gold plated and father's satisfied, yes. All right. Both dads showed my dad my diploma yesterday.
04:18
So no more asking you. Have you completed it yet?
04:22
Correct. Correct.
04:23
We've quieted them down quite a bit.
04:26
Well, I'm sure they're both proud partners. That's outstanding. So another question. How would you describe the support you received, as well as access to resources from NCU when you're working on your doctorates?
04:41
Support? Yeah, I that's the one thing we talked a ton about together. Yeah. And I think the one thing we both say is like our teachers.
04:52
And with you know, it's been an education as you know, with K through eight Right, the biggest influences is teachers in the field. And when you get to graduate school, you always think, well, we're adults. Now, maybe you don't need as much involvement from your teacher. But like, that's the direct opposite of what you need. I think when you're, especially when you're having a life on top of that, right, you're having to either work or support a family or take care of kids. However it looks. And I think with with the support, it helps you to continue to move through. I mean, I think back to some of my earliest teachers, and I had, I wound up switching my topic.
In the beginning, I was really nervous, because I was like, Oh, my gosh, I invested all this time in these elite classes, and my teacher, she was so supportive, she's like, nope, like, you need to do what you're passionate about, like, we'll get you through this, it's gonna be fine. And I'm, you know, every step of the way stats, whatever, like, the they always picked up, they always accepted an email, they always were there. So that that's, I mean, for me, that was the most positive experience and the tools also that were provided.
06:08
Yeah, and Dr. Broderick and Dr. Strickland, just so you know, there's an argument in our house about who is better, or who we like more, it happens on a regular basis. So that that really does happen. But Angela was really good at reaching out to her professors. And I think I was a little bit more interested in reaching out to like the resources. So those support factors, Dr. regal. So I think that for us was a little bit different in our process. Um, I spent a lot of time. First of all, I have to shout out the IRB process. And Dr. Miller, because I went through at a time when she just had put a bunch of support and a bunch of other folks on webinars and podcasts and all sorts of different, you know, types of resources. And I had an excellent experience, it was quick and easy.
And I actually learned some things that helped me in the dissertation process, just through her mentoring and, and some of the information she provided. And then also really truly ASC jumping in looking at different components. I spent a lot of time kind of in the library and asking for tutoring help and that sort of things, you know, as I wanted somebody else to read through my my document, because again, if this is about doctors and doctors, doctors can't read other doctors papers, we love them too much ourselves, I have to get an outside person from a from tutoring to come in and help me because you know, we read each other's and Gosh, we you know, that is that is not an uncensored in me.
07:37
Would you join on that? So she would have her sessions I'd be in the background kind of listening, even though I didn't sign up. I was like, well, maybe Oh, you know, here's something new. So that's right. And Dr. Strickland, I'm definitely sure I got some advice from you as well listening in on Angela's conversations as well. sorry to tell you guys that now.
07:57
Those it's all good information, thanks for sharing. But one of the things I particularly heard was instructor accessibility, more structure instructors being easily accessed. And and that's really, that's what we really strive for, particularly in the one to one model, then see you, we want our instructors to be available to be there for students when when they need them throughout the program. So that's good to hear. And I also heard there was a wide range of resources, some tutoring that you all took advantage of, which is super, and I'm also sensing a little competition between the two of you. And that probably is good happens, it would probably a driving force and for both of you to complete, which is not a bad thing. So super stoked about it now, but it was it was actually probably it's definitely what got me through I will say that for sure.
08:41
Super, super. So I've got another question for both of you. What would you say was the most positive aspect about your NCU experience as a doctoral student working at my own pace, top a more than anything else, top of my list was being able to work at our own pace, we actually started really excited thinking that we could do two classes at a time we were going to knock this out fast. And I think both of us got to a point where we realized like, we need to have work life balance. And we also need to have study time on top of everything else. And so we dropped down to one class, we talked about it together. And I think it was the best thing we did. But also just having that opportunity to, you know, be able to stop after work and decide when we worked. Angela worked at a lot during the week in between tasks where I tended to work more evenings and weekends. And so that was absolutely huge for us.
09:42
I think positive for me. When in life do you get to really delve into a topic that you're very interested in and all aspects right like there's there hasn't been an opportunity for me to go and look at journals before. I mean, I did to some degree in like undergrad and my master's, but not to the level of what we were expected to do here and to learn, you know, specifically with my topic, you know, regarding LBGT Q, how long some of the, you know, the issues have been going on and even today that you hear, I mean, this is always a topic of debate of discussion rights versus no rights. And, you know, it just policy. Yeah, practice. Yeah, it just was very interesting to be able to spend that length of time on on a topic as such.
10:36
Super, super. So, couple more questions. Any advice? Any supportive advice? For students who are considering the completion of their doctorate could be emotional, it could be practical advice. What are some advice you would share with students at the doctoral level?
10:54
You're the emotional ones. Oh, yeah.
10:59
You're very practical. Is that how we're Yeah, this sounds so practical. You're the emotional one. So I'm going to write,
11:04
Okay, no, you know, I'm going to switch that up on you. I'm going to give one word for emotional and to say perseverance, that's my emotional thing is that it is about for me, it was about perseverance. I'm gonna look at you. I'm gonna challenge your emotional side. How about that?
11:18
You know, there was a moment where I was doing chapter two, and I called Dr. Strickland and I was like, I, I don't know. Like, if I can break 30 something pages, and I had like one of those breakdown moments like, literally, I was like, Okay, I can't cry in the middle. I was in the middle of the grocery store, literally, and talking to Dr. Strickland. And she was just like, it's okay, just breathe. It's okay. If it takes you a little bit longer than this, like one class. And that was hard for me. Because I'm that kid. I've never missed the homework. I've always passed all my classes.
And emotionally for me, not being able to I had to dip into the B class for like, two weeks. And that was like really hard for me emotionally. So like, I think, just know that getting done with the process in the right way should supersede like any perfectionism that you have, which can be difficult. practical advice.
And I swear, I swear to this, the 12 page papers that you have to do, or even the five page five to seven, like, take one day, like a week so that your weekends aren't crazy. And your Sundays you're not stressed like Yeah, so the 12 page, I would do two pages a day. And to get to that Sunday, and then for the chapter two with the you know, the heavy hitter, is what we like to call it. Um, you know, Dr. Strickland gave me the best advice. She said, just break it into like major topics and treat them like 10 page papers, each with like, maybe some subtopics underneath. And that got me through honestly, with getting past my fears.
13:02
Yeah, practically, I would say start with boot camp.
13:05
Yeah, that's true.
13:07
Start with the resources, whether they're virtual or in person, start with the resources that with having the end in mind. And maybe that's easy to say at the end of the process, I'm going to kind of acknowledge that it is a process. But um, we talked about it now and say, I wish we had thought about those research questions earlier. I wish we had thought about, you know, what topic, we were really going to be passionate about it and we heard it over and over wasn't like somebody wasn't telling us that. And maybe it took us a while to get to it. But had we to do it again, we would really think about the end in mind and try to, you know, get started on some of those thought processes in our earlier courses?
13:47
Well, well, that's excellent advice. One of the things I did here is really try to break this down into more manageable pieces. Rather than falling apart, panicking, having an anxiety attack, over looking at the whole thing, whether it's the entire dissertation, or chapter two or whatever chapter, but really trying to break that down into more manageable pieces. And I would say that also helps you emotionally as well. So you don't have panic moment. So I think it's both practical and emotional advice together. And I also like the original comment, perseverance, you really have to stick with it. You just really do. And don't wait till Sunday to do your papers. Right?
14:28
You will be so surprised, like, you know that 12 o'clock or whatever time zone you're in is real at that point. So don't wait.
14:37
Just kind of working a little bit throughout the week, and then bring home during the weekend. That's super nice. So I have one last question before I turn it over to Dr. Broderick. And that is you know what, NC we really try to develop a graduate culture and a sense of of doing well, doing better for others. So after you've completed your doctorate Now, how do you plan to utilize what you've learned? to benefit others, what are you going to do and go forth to help others?
15:05
I think I can, I'll start and say that I'm, in starting this process and back it up a little bit and saying, starting this process, I had been working in education for a long time. And I wondered, really, why do this, if I'm not going to if I met this place of being a superintendent and getting the career they need, why. And it was really interesting, as I started to realize how much better I became as both like a scholar and a practitioner, that, like, my writing got better. And my understanding of how to attach theory and research to what I was doing in the in, in my work got better. And so for me, you know, I was kind of that old lady who was starting to say, like, Well, sure, I'll do this, but I didn't realize how much it was really gonna influence my work and, and kind of add another Spark.
I feel like I've gotten that second wind and that spark and a point in time where I really needed it in my career to say, Okay, what do I want to do? What's part of my daily job duties? But what is it that I really want to do to give back? How do I want to, you know, approach that, and it wasn't just my dissertation or Angeles dissertation, but hearing other dissertations, where I started to say, Oh, I'd like to engage in some SEO work, I'd like to look at some different versions of policy. You know, we're sitting here on on MLK Day recording this today, and today's a day of service. And it was something that we've really looked at differently, since we've gotten since we worked through this process than we did beforehand. And, and so in that way, and a lot of that comes from ncu.
And it doesn't just come from the classes, but getting feedback in like, posts and other students that are working on other, you know, working on other issues and tackling those academically, that's been really interesting. So I feel really lucky and fortunate, and you know, in that, so it really made you a better Superintendent even revitalized, you energized you. So then those can those kinds of skills and that energy, you can pass that on to others in your job. Absolutely,
17:11
yes. Yeah.
17:13
I would say the same for me too, you know, likewise, being superintendent, um, you know, understanding all the programs within our state specifically, because throughout this process, it's not just about looking at, you know, theories of others, it's, it's also about looking at what's going on in your state specifically, as far as you know, regarding my topic, um, you know, it's in certain states, it's still a topic that's really not discussed, right. It's, you know, one of those situations where, well, we're gonna just be kind to everyone, but we're not going to bring up LBTGQ, um, you know, policies or, or situations in schools, because, you know, it just, and this is, you know, some states are way better than others. It just depends. And that's what I discovered through my research. But I think, you know, knowing this now is the discussion needs to happen. I mean, there's just so much going on in this world right now.
And I think kindness and support and respect for all, you know, genders all, you know, backgrounds all, especially today with being MLK Day, irrespective of everyone, um, you know, and I think that's, I find that that's been a little missing, and I feel like I can go out and maybe now deliver this message in a very organized, in fact, you know, with facts versus just my opinion. That's right.
18:43
So it's really about you learning those facts, that that knowledge, and then you going out and really elevating the awareness, the communication, the dialogue, the support. I think that's all super, that's all fantastic. And just to clarify for our listeners, both of your school superintendents, correct. Yes. And, and you worked and you stayed being a superintendent, while you completed your doctorate, I sure was hectic, but it can be done if you pace yourself.
19:11
Yes. And you know, those tools that you get from your classes are for me, were very helpful. They planted those reminders of why we do what we do a very good time. So it in terms of balancing work, and the dissertation. It only enhanced it for me,
19:31
it really did. And you got to consider, you know, we were in the middle or thick of the dissertation process while COVID hit right. And I know I'm sure we'll eventually talk about that on this podcast and but, um, you know, we had to create specifically, you know, hybrid models, virtual models, and then obviously, the traditional model, you know, while still working on our dissertation, so it is very, very possible. too, even at a time of like, uncertain or a pandemic, even to continue to move forward with your, your dissertation doctor, you just have to have great support systems. I mean, we have each other and we had our chairs in our past teachers, um, you know, but if you're in a situation where you're by yourself, you have to find those support systems. I think that's, that's like key in this process.
20:25
So I would say perhaps after this podcast, we may see more spouses doing this together.
20:31
I hope so.
20:34
That'd be great.
20:35
I know, I'm sure we've had them somewhere in the past, but it may stimulate the need, because like you said, you actually can lean on each other, support each other. And then you can actually listen in on each other. So yeah, got it. Well, thanks to both of you. I really want to turn it over to Dr. Broderick now, because Maggie has some questions for Dr. McNamara, as you know, served as her chair. So Maggie, it's all yours.
20:58
Thanks so much, Dr. Riggle. I love picturing you with your students, Megan, and Angela, and all the other students at boot camp, and just hanging out together.
21:06
I just want a doctor, a doctor Broderick and to Dr. Riggle. This is what they call a challenge coin that you get at the end of bootcamp. And I feel like I'm giving away a trade secret here. I still have mine with me. And I just want everybody to know I keep it close at hand for just these times when we all get together. And we're able to, we're able to shout out that we've been to boot camp. So
21:32
Love it. Love it, I like to see that I've never seen one like that. So this, this is great. I love it. Well, it sounds like a blast. And also, you've learned a lot in that process. My students who have attended the boot camp, they always tell me, it focuses and prepares them for the big task at hand, like you both mentioned, and it is a big deal. Getting a doctor, it's truly an awesome journey. So, Megan, it's really been my pleasure serving as your chair. And on top of that, just hearing about your relationship with Angela, and just how you two have supported one another just, it made my day throughout that entire process that we work together. And it was just so cool that you both choose to do different types. You chose a quantitative dissertation, and Angela chose a qualitative dissertation, you just really did at all between the two of you, which is really great. So I have four questions for you. Megan, what did you find to be most challenging about your doctoral student experience?
22:34
Look, I'm going to give you the real truth about it, Dr. Broderick, but I'm going to I'm going to put you on the spot. And I'm going to ask you a question first, if you're okay with that, I want to know, I was your student.
22:46
What do you what do you feel? When did you realize that I was having challenges? Or when or if I had challenges in the process?
22:54
Oh, I turn the tables. Of course. It's I think of it like a roller coaster, you know, you see the student doing well for a while and you think oh, they're gonna do so well. And then something gets a little bit harder. And you know, up that hill, it's much harder. And then you see them flying along again. And I saw that up and down a line. That's just how it always is. And it happens for students at different times in the process. So I know chapter two was your uphill. That was the chugging up the hill, I get it, it sounds like Angela had the same appeal. But then other things were like we got this we're collecting data, yay. And then you're going up that hill again. That's just sort of how I saw it. But I'd love to hear your feelings about it. Because I know how hard it can be.
23:32
Thank you for thank you for that. I asked that question. Because you know, I'm sure it's a roller coaster on both ends, right. And I remember when I started out saying to you, I'm going to get this done quickly. I've gotten through my classes with some success. And I feel encouraged by you know, what I think is the system of classes and all those things. And you're absolutely right, there were moments where I was chugging. And there were moments where I was like friction, there was just too much friction to do anything at all. And I would say um, I expected chapter two to be easy, took me A, B and C to get through it. And that was my that was my downfall. And interestingly, also my, what I was gonna, I was expecting to be my strength. And it became my downfall because I heaped on to chapter two, all of these beliefs about it not being good enough and it needing to be perfect and Angela chugging through things so much faster than I did.
And I really got to this existential crisis point where I was I was just stuck. I was completely stuck. And I wasn't just stuck in terms of getting in my own way, but I really, I was challenged by this idea that I wasn't a good student that I struggled in grade school and I joke now that the reason I went back to teaching in the first place because I had to do it all over again. I got very few things right in K through 12, the first time around, um, and really truly it, it was a few teachers along the way. And you who really walked me through the process to get to here, and I definitely appreciate, appreciate all your help in that because it was the things I brought with me that that eventually would throughout my careers, and as a student that stopped me in that process. And I, if it wasn't for you, I don't know if I would have gotten back on that roller coaster at all. So I definitely, definitely appreciate it.
25:33
Oh, thanks, Megan. Well, I it's amazing to see each of you had your own journey in your own roller coaster. And you could compare and, and it's the same, we see that with every student, everybody's going to have different challenges. And we have to dig within ourselves sometimes to figure out how to get through them. So what did you find most helpful? You mentioned, you know, the role of the chair and the role of instructors and things? And I know, of course, Angela was there for you? What other things did you find most helpful when you did have to overcome those challenges?
26:00
Um, I actually, I would say, a lot of just the resources that were kind of placed at my feet really, truly ASC, you would often say to me, go back and look at this document or go back to the dissertation template, or go back to, you know, check in and see what your stats coach has to say about things. And I think that was, that was super helpful for me throughout there were just so many points in time where that where that really helped.
26:30
Those stats, coaches, I am eternally grateful. The same was true for my own dissertation, like you said, you know, not always being a great student, maybe one's a good student, or not a good student or whatever. But when you get to certain aspects, phone a friend, as my phrase, that is my favorite friend to to phone is the stats, coaches. I'm sure glad that you did. Thinking about that. How did you network, perhaps and lean on other folks beyond the ASC and myself for support? Yeah, no,
26:59
Thank you for asking that. Because I think that one of the things that I that I think we talked about it ncu is that it's one on one, and it's self paced. And so then the question comes up of, Okay, well, then how do you have network and build community, right, like, what does that look like in this internet sort of online format. And I think one of the things that was really great that you had led me to, and I gotta give you credit for this was, as I was getting to that point where I could have very easily gotten back on that roller coaster, and very easily plummeted when it came to the defense and the PowerPoint, because we think we're done. And it's going to be great. And that last hurdle is so psychological. Still, getting that PowerPoint done, and synthesizing everything, and then being ready for that defense, I think is is more of an active, you know, psychological, I don't know, next step, so to speak, that are that are difficult. And you just reached out to me and said, You know, there are other people in that, or I'm working with that are doing the same thing. And Mike, you all want to just get together and talk about that process.
And it was the first time really that I looked at somebody besides Angela, and said, there are other people doing this. And they have their own passions, and they are in the same process. And they're in all different parts of the country. And that whole opportunity to do that was so helpful for me. It just gave us and I feel really indebted to Barbara and to Gloria and to Bart reds. It's funny because we had two barbers. And so to have everybody involved in that process was was pretty awesome, and really helpful. To be honest.
28:40
I just remember the email I sent to you all, because you were all posed, you know, poised to defend somewhere near Thanksgiving, you know, somewhere in 2020, before it ended. And I was just saying, I'm grateful for you all, because I really am. I think you all are terrific group. And like you said, it's amazing, different topics that you all were exploring, were important to all of you in different ways. But when we're knee deep in our own topic, let's say writing a lit review or methodology, we're not thinking about somebody studying a different topic. But when you get to that defense, it's about that, you know, collegiality and about sharing what we learned. And at the end of the process, really presenting it to others and collaborating on that level. Because you have you're an expert, you become the expert. And that is awesome.
29:22
And there's so much grace and understanding from that group. If you can reach out and find anybody that's in the same position or the same part of your journey that you are, there's a level of understanding that's almost short handed and so important, and that that was that was the best part about it.
29:38
Really.
29:39
I love it. It's when you're joining the club. That's that's when you join the club. Great. Um, could you share any advice to potential students as well as current students regarding any tips to successfully earn your doctorate and see you? Yeah,
29:53
I was gonna say no. advices maybe, maybe try it differently than I did. But I I think the best advice I can give is, is to find a topic you're passionate about. And, and juice all you can out of the resources you have and the time you have. It is, it's it's a challenging journey at times. But if it wasn't challenging, it wouldn't be as rewarding on the other end. So yeah, one foot in front of the other.
30:25
That's exactly it. I mean, early on in the program, people will say, wow, this is a lot I'm going to do. I'm like, Yeah, they're going to call you doctor, you have to do a lot. But all the resources are there at each step of the process. And, and other people are there, too. So just don't lose sight of that. That's right. Well, thank you so much, Megan. It really has been my honor. And I've been delighted to serve as your chair. And I wish you the very best moving forward as an educational scholar. Definitely stay in touch as I know, I know. You will. Back to you, Sam.
30:54
Things after Broderick and Dr. McNamara so in full and encouraging. Now let's go to Dr. Strickland, who has some questions for Dr. Beck.
31:03
Thank you, Sam. And thank you Dr. Broderick and Dr. Riggle. I too, have really enjoyed working and getting to know Dr. speck in McNamara. I feel like I really do feel like I have developed a personal and professional relationship that I hope to continue into the future. So Megan is discussed how have you supported each other? And in tips that she has for future students? Is there anything that you want to add to any of her discussion?
31:36
You know, I, like I said, the biggest thing is, yeah, it'd be ideal. If you could go through this with your significant other at the same time, I could see how this could, you know, be challenging on a relationship concerning the time that you need to dedicate to this. But if that's not the case, right, a lot of cases, that's not it, right? I think just like, you know, definitely scheduling your time, so that you can have that those moments with your families. You know, children, friends, however, don't. Although this takes a lot of time and dedication, don't lose sight of those pieces. Because at the end of the day, they're the ones who are going to need to be there for you that you need to be there for them as well. Life doesn't stop.
And this doctorate program isn't about, you know, just throwing away everything that you've worked on for, you know, three or four years you have to maintain. And that's the biggest piece and I think really find a really good friends, someone that you can just like, express your woes to and your joys because there's it is a roller coaster, like Dr. Rhonda said, it's up and down. And I think you need to celebrate your successes as well as like have a year someone that just says like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, or understand, and how can I help you? Like, I think that that would be the biggest things.
33:05
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I call that person, a critical friend. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's me, you know, even 22 years into the process. As a teacher educator, I still have a critical friend that I never send out anything without her looking at it or getting feedback from her. And so I appreciate that. So I have a couple of questions as well. Um, Angela, could you describe your most challenging moment during the dissertation process? And what sources whether personal or at answer you did you use to overcome those challenges?
33:45
So I would say in the beginning, there were a couple of times where I was having feelings. Once, you know, in the beginning, we were you know, we were taking the two classes together, trying to just fast track. And it was time to where you have 212 page papers due in a week, right? And you're just starting now. And so you're really this, this is a marathon, not a sprint, and I'm gonna put that out there now, like, and I think, you know, you just have to do to your comfort level, it got to a place where I felt like, you know, we had this eta of where we were going to be done.
And, you know, it was tough for me to say I can't juggle this full time work as a superintendent, taking two classes a week. And um, you know, I had to like, be okay with that, you know, and give myself grace. And know that maybe, you know, I wouldn't finish in two and a half years or whatever, I haven't finished in three like so. I mean, that's, that's that was a really tough part for me because again, I'm a perfectionist, and I think I can do all and sometimes you doing all doesn't, it means like doing it right versus quick. So that's one thing.
And then, of course, I mentioned earlier, but um, you know, the lit review is, is something that I think I just let it mentally get to me. I, I just felt like, I did chapter three first. I mean, I was doing everything to avoid going to chapter two. And, um, and then once I got there, and I got past that 10 pages of, you know, being scared and fearful that wouldn't have enough to say, right, then you start seeing that there is there's plenty of resources out there, there's plenty of research, especially on a topic, you know, such as mine, and I just had that fear that I just wouldn't find enough. And then what would I do? And, yeah, I would say, just be confident in your abilities and be confident and the resources that you have. And if your professor says try something, like, follow that direction.
36:01
Oh, good advice. Always follow your tears. Advice. Right, just kidding. This Oh, my neck. Okay, so my next question is really about the relationship that you and I built. And I think, I think one of the things that really stood out for Dr. Broderick, and Dr. Riggle is just the importance that YouTube placed on building relationships. So what importance Do you place on that dissertation chair and student relationship? And what do you do to build that relationship?
36:41
I think that the first thing, it's so important, just like any relationship, you have, you know, a parent, child, teacher, you know, student Parent Teacher, it, you have to build that trust, because without trust, it's not going to be like a fruitful relationship. And I think being upfront about you know, about your, your strengths, and then your weaknesses. I think that's important. And just, like Self Realization, is key in this too, so that your chair knows these things about you and can help you along the way. I you know, I kind of been below withdrawals because, I mean, although we do things, I'm like, so used to like talking to Dr. Strickland, like, you know, it felt like every couple of days, and, you know, it is a relationship that you depend upon, and we've had personal conversations, and I felt like, you know, in some ways, you know, I can help her. And then a lot of ways she helped me so it was like this giving relationship it can't just be all take, right?
And what I mean by all take is chair tells you something and then you either disregard or don't respect their knowledge or authority in some level because that no one is against you, at this level there, you know, your chairs wanting you to complete your work, right? for a lot of reasons. And make sure you know, you get over to her, you took all what it was, like 18 classes. I mean, before this, like you put in the time. So I mean, I think it's it's important that you have a great relationship so that you can get through this without animosity and with a lot of like, Joy together because when I finished I felt like, you know, I could I really truly couldn't have done it without Dr. Strickland and we have had the arguments of who's the better care but I think it's all because we built those relationships.
And, um, you know, she, you know, Megan adored hers, and I adored my hair and I called you my Pro. Yeah, now, in some days now, I'm like, I miss my Pro, like, and I probably should just pick up the phone and text you but, you know, I'm like, she has a family too. And she's busy and you know, but yeah, it's Well, yeah, so let me go on record that I did not get a congratulatory text from you on Monday night. was Monday night, the national championship game. Show your LSU fans so I know I understand. I understand. You know what, there's been two times today that I'm feeling certain ways because my saints didn't know she didn't do well. I it's just been a it's been a total support season. For me as an as a non sports competitor. I would say both teams did very well, just not the champions.
39:42
That's true.
39:44
That's her staying quiet over here. Always.
39:49
Going out there to try to lose a game so all the athletes didn't play they all they played the best that ability given the search situation. So I am proud of my two teams.
40:00
To you,
40:01
Thank you, thank you even though I had to drag it out IV Thank you. Okay, so my third question is, you were complaining your data collection, and when COVID required schools to completely shut down, and being a school administrator yourself, What problems do this cause for you ate? With your research in Bay with your job responsibilities?
40:23
Yeah, so COVID was interesting, because, you know, I, I'm one of those forward thinkers. So in my head, I had all painted out what this was going to look like, when I started recruiting for, you know, the students, I was gonna ask questions too, and it all in my head was in person. Because I was like, Oh, my gosh, if I can just go sit up the table at said college or university, then I'm sure I will get ample people because they will be able to put a face behind the, you know, the this dissertation right, and why we're doing this and they can ask questions. And then when that didn't happen, I that was another panic moment, too, because I reached out to Dr. Strickland, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, what if no one, like I don't I don't know what to do. Now. How does this work? Because I'm, you know, what if, uh, you know, the said University doesn't assist me to, to be able to reach out to folks, right? Because there's Barbara, there's all these things, you it's not like places, they're not allowed to, they can't just get on the other university, not NCU Yes, my dissertation University, they can't just hand over, you know, information to you, right.
And so thankfully, the university I worked through was amazing, they helped me so much. But that took a lot of, you know, going and speaking to people, you know, in that IRB, and then heads of their department, and they've all were great, they responded to me very, so thank you, university that I can't disclose. But they were amazing. Um, and once that happened, I did have some students reach out, I was a little disappointed in the amount of students but you got to consider, they were kids were at home at that point, they weren't on college grounds, they, you know, that they had COVID going on to, you know, in a pandemic, and dealing with and trying to figure out school and finish up for them, too. So, um, that was a very interest time, but I had, thankfully, some great participants who were able to, you know, give me saturate the data, as we say, right.
And that was very fortunate, I almost would love to go back to said University and go try to recruit again, in person and, like, try it again, to see what else comes out of it. But, um, you know, that's always in the back of my head. Um, and then, you know, part through professionally, it was, it was quick, everything happened so fast. The governor, you know, declared on a Friday, literally, that we were not returning to school on Monday, and no one knew how long this was going to be we knew at minimum was two weeks, but it could have been a lot longer. And this was in the middle of March, right. And I think, you know, we formulated basically a virtual school as a network team in like, two or three hours. I know that sounds crazy. But we had a full schedule, we and we did development with teachers on that Monday and Tuesday, we were fully up and running with, you know, our teachers teaching virtually, you know, for the eight hours a day, we are, by the way, a very small district that in perspective of make things but something you know, that's the same process of any other school would have to go through no matter how big or small.
But I think just the sense of urgency was different, it was like none other, because we knew that I didn't want the kids to start losing ground. And you know, education is important. I mean, that's taxpayers money, that's federal money, you have to deliver back that service. And so those pieces were at the forefront of my mind when making decisions and safety and wellbeing and our kids and the parents too. So yeah, it was challenging, but I think there wasn't an option, we had to make it work.
And we had to do it, period, which likely is the same for if you're going to, you know, do a dissertation, right? Like you have to just kind of keep plugging forward. A doctor should come I'm sorry to jump in. But I have to ask you the question, whether it's COVID or not, isn't this this time period of data collection, always kind of a struggle, we start out with these high hopes of how much data we're going to collect and then reality sets in.
44:54
Absolutely. You know, it is you know, there's always something that's going to happen, but Yeah, I, you know, I get the students that say, I'm going to have 20 people at a 22 are going to agree to participate. And I'm thinking not gonna happen. I mean, even, but you know how we are and when you get an email that it's please participate in this research in on again. So, you know, if we're like that, and we know the importance of the research, you know that, you know, your average teacher or participant is the same way. So yeah, I always try to tell students, if you think you're going to get this, you're going to get it at the most half of what you what you think you're going to get. Now with these are my friends, okay, just this way. Yeah. So that it is difficult to, you know, you wouldn't know that unless you went through the research process and know that the participating the participants is really, really hard. So it does sound like you know, when, when COVID happen it for you, Angela, is this, like, oh, if I can start a whole new school district in a weekend, I certainly can get this dissertation. Right. I mean, that's kinda how I take on most of my like philosophy, I'm like, Well, if I just made that happen, then this is like, not as bad.
So but I have to say this, because I haven't mentioned it yet. I worked with the GLAAD organization to throughout my process, and that was pretty, that was pretty awesome. I met the CEO one day, and she was just amazing. You know, she was like, hey, feel free to contact us and, you know, their, their, their folks were so helpful, throughout my process with with resources or, or looking over my questions to ask those experts. And until I do want to, I did want to mention, like the partnerships too, that you can develop throughout your process, you never imagined that you would have you would be you know, I guess, like even interacting with with folks on that level, other than maybe making a donation, but like, you know, to a nonprofit. But yeah, it just was, um, that was a very positive part of my experience, too.
47:13
You know, I feel that it's another way to make those professional connections that you need. Good. So I have one, I have one final question. So more than 20 years after I completed my dissertation, I still have a very close mentor mentee relationship with my chair. And she's actually just retiring this year that we added a journal together. So I feel like, you know, every every step along the way, you know, she nudged me here, submit to this journal are put in a proposal to present here. What's your ideal of what a mentor mentee relationship looks forward after you? In other words, what is the role of the chair in in mentoring you after the degree?
48:07
I think it's important that like, your chair knows, what are your future? Like? What do you aspire to do? Right, like Dr. Strickland and I talked about, you know, I would love to be a professor one day too, and do kinda, you know, do some of the things in support kids, just like you have or be a mentor to some of the students specifically at NC U. because I feel like I know the program. Right. So we've talked about that.
And then we've also talked about where Dr. Strickland was like, No, you're the expert, you need to go out and like share this information. So she really pushed me to, you know, have the courage to take this and I have delivered, you know, this information specifically to our organization. Through a DUI workshop, I invited others such as state, you know, State Department members, and just to try to start opening up this discussion, and a lot of good things came out of it. A lot of folks had a lot of questions, I think, because oftentimes, where avoidance happens, um, it's due to lack of knowledge, right? I don't think people intentionally, I won't say everybody, but I think for the most part, people have a good heart, they just don't understand.
And so with not understanding, it's like, well, I don't know how to dress, right? I don't know if you know, how do I dress if a kid comes to me and says that they're maybe thinking they're a different gender, like they feel trapped? Like, I don't know how to dress this. So I think it's very important, because teachers, sometimes teachers are the only ones that hear this information from kids. Maybe it's hard for them to go to their parents or to a loved one. Or maybe it's easy, who knows. But I think just equipping people with here are the resources and guess what, if you Don't know, they're here's how you can go out here, all the experts that you have that, you know, available here are the, you know, the online resources such as a glad organization.
Um, you know, for if you want to read up and find out more. So I think, you know, Dr. Strickland has really give me the courage to just like, take that risk, because I'm, I'm, I have a hard time with, like, if I don't feel like it's going to go exactly right, or to go apply for that job and not get it right. Or, you know, go write it for a journal, which I haven't done, but I've been thinking about it, um, you know, what would I say? Would anybody read it wouldn't even be important, would it be good, and I think she would be able to help me out with some of these, you know, I guess fears that run through your head after you're done.
And that's the other thing once you're done, you're like, what do I do now with my life, you know, what is like? And I truly have identified that I want, I want to give back in some kind of way to NCU and some frame of AI sometime somewhere and somehow that's something that I do I have determined so excellent here today. Yeah, good. So yeah, your topic was such an important one for social justice. So, you know, I think you have some responsibility to share that beyond just your committee and your defense. So Well, thank you, Angela. I too, am honored and delighted to have served as your your chair, and I too wish you the best in your future professional endeavors. And as an educational leader, please stay in touch bye to Sam.
51:38
This will conclude today's podcast. Please check back often as more exciting episodes and podcasts are on their way. Until next time, goodbye.