We are now entering the next big organizational experiment – hybrid working combined with working from home/anywhere. Employees want to keep the flexibility they enjoyed during the pandemic and companies realize that employees can be productive outside of the offices. As hybrid working is one of the most challenging remote configurations, in this episode Theresa S. Hollema and Pilar Orti will focus on the opportunities, risks, and plans. Theresa is a trainer, consultant, and author of Virtual Teams Across Cultures, and leads the team at Interact Global. Pilar is a consultant and multi-time author, most recently of Online Meetings That Matter, host of the highly recognized podcast 21st Century Worklife, and Director of the team at Virtual Not Distant. Theresa and Pilar have a highly engaging conversation on the latest developments on the topic and what they see companies doing. The conversation will range from inclusion to technology to decreasing the agenda-filled video meetings.
We are now entering the next big organizational experiment – hybrid working combined with working from home/anywhere. Employees want to keep the flexibility they enjoyed during the pandemic and companies realize that employees can be productive outside of the offices. As hybrid working is one of the most challenging remote configurations, in this episode Theresa S. Hollema and Pilar Orti will focus on the opportunities, risks, and plans. Theresa is a trainer, consultant, and author of Virtual Teams Across Cultures, and leads the team at Interact Global. Pilar is a consultant and multi-time author, most recently of Online Meetings That Matter, host of the highly recognized podcast 21st Century Worklife, and Director of the team at Virtual Not Distant. Theresa and Pilar have a highly engaging conversation on the latest developments on the topic and what they see companies doing. The conversation will range from inclusion to technology to decreasing the agenda-filled video meetings.
Theresa S. Hollema 0:02
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Center for the advancement of virtual organizations podcast with the title, the next big organizational experiment. My name is Theresa S. Hollema. I'm a trainer, consultant and most recently the author of the book virtual teams across cultures. I'm also the director at interact global. And I am very honored to be the visiting virtual expert at Cabo this quarter. Today, I'm fortunate to be joined by Pilar Orti, who is a consultant and multi time author, and most recently of the book online meetings that matter. She is the director of virtual not distant, and also the host of the very highly acclaimed podcast 21st century work life. Today, our conversation will focus on the latest developments of hybrid working. And what we need to imagine companies are doing from inclusion to technology to decreasing the agenda filled meetings. Welcome Vilar. And thank you for taking the time to chat with me today.
Pilar Orti
Well, it's lovely to be here. Thanks, Teresa. And hello, listeners.
Theresa S. Hollema
So if you are here, we are talking about hybrid working, which seems to be such a hot topic. But let's be honest, have been working has been around for a long time. It's just a hot topic. Now. What has changed PLR?
Pilar Orti 1:22
Well, I think what changed was, unfortunately, the the pandemic. And as you said, there's already been there were already organizations doing this kind of model where some people were away from the office somewhere in the office. But sometimes the remote aspect of it they're working away from the office was not being taken very seriously. And of course, with a pandemic, we saw that people can work away from each other, some people can work very well from home as well. And so this meant that many individuals and many organizations started to reconsider whether remote work could work as part of their organization. And in seeing that individuals were thinking, well, there's a lot that I like working from home, but I also miss the office and organizations are thinking, Oh, can we give them both worlds? So I think that's where we are at the moment.
Theresa S. Hollema 2:17
Yes, when I speak with people, like my clients and others as well, the word flexibility, I love the flexibility. Can you is like the mantra from employees, it's really they just are enjoying the ability to be able to work and balance home life more as well as eliminating the commute. I mean, there are just so many advantages that people experienced.
Pilar Orti, 2:41
Yes, but of course, flexibility is almost a double edged sword in a way because flexibility also means that people make more individual choices, and then we have to coordinate them, which I think were the little bit of anxious anxiety around hybrid work is also creeping up.
Theresa S. Hollema
You know what I also noticed, though, people are, I'm curious what you think, is that companies? I don't know if they themselves, let's say are in love with the idea of hybrid, but they are in love with the idea of holding on to their employees? Hmm. Yeah, yeah, there seems to be there's someone who surveys out there saying that employees want flexible. And recently, I noticed a UBS, they had decided with the previous CEO, not to have hybrid. But now with the new CEO, they are having hybrid. And the reason is, is because he wants to attract top talent.
Pilar Orti 3:32
Yeah, this is the argument that we've been hearing a lot, and especially the advocates of remote work and saying, Well, if you don't offer some kind of remote option, you're going to either lose your people or not attract some people. So I think that it's a really good opportunity to not and it's not just about location, I think the underlying the whole hybrid experiment, or the whole trend is this desire, as you say, for flexibility for designing our work patterns in a way that we can give our best. And yes, if you want if more organizations are offering this, then it looks like this needs to be an option.
Theresa S. Hollema 4:15
I like what very much what you just said there where we can be our best because we saw many people saw during the pandemic that in fact, they were very productive in certain locations, like their home, for instance, they didn't they didn't miss the noise and the distractions of the office. So there is something about flexibility, but also let me work on my best.
Pilar Orti 4:36
And also let's remember that we are humans, so we don't turn up at work and leave the whole of our lives behind. So if we are well some people can do it very well but mostly, so if I am if I have a works if I have a lifestyle where I can look after my person alive where either I spend time in my community or reduced My journey time or spend my first half hour of the day reading rather than driving, for example, which might be good for some people, for others not, if I can design that I can be happier, I can have a happier life. And then that makes me also happier worker. So it's not just about offering that flexibility and happiness during work time, it's also about looking at the person as a whole, and seeing how work fits into their life.
Theresa S. Hollema 5:31
Very nice. So, as you know, you and I both know, hybrid has been around for a long time. And we also know that hybrid is more challenging then 100%, remote or 100% in the office. So we're going for the most challenging setup in the future. Why is it so challenging?
Pilar Orti 5:52
The most, I think the most cited challenge is the fact that if you're not careful, you can find you can find two tribes in the organization. But it really depends on the setup. I think it's all about whether we suddenly find that some people are in the office all the time, and some people are not. And whether that divide emerges. We've also talked about the challenge of coordination. Okay, we're having this flexibility. Is it about in a team different individuals use the office at different times? How do we coordinate for those times when we want to be together? So I think coordination, some people exclusion, this is something that many people are worried about is that, again, if there are some people who are using the office 100% of the time, they might appear more visible. And so the remote people might feel excluded? Or if very few people are using the office, and most people are working from somewhere else from home, the people in the office might feel excluded. So I think it's it's just this, this concern that having two very defined workspaces can lead to some division.
Theresa S. Hollema 7:06
Yeah, I think that you're, I think you're spot on. And as well, I'm kind of I'm very glad that inclusion has been a hot topic, let's say, or certainly the front of very many people's minds, the last period of time, and that it's being thought about now as well, because it's so critical to make sure that everyone feels like they are participating in decisions, that they are parties that they're included in information flow. So this has to be very conscious by the team and by the leaders. As we go as they design their processes and design, how they're going to work together. Yeah.
Pilar Orti
And you reminded me, you reminded me about, I don't know, maybe three or four years ago, so we are in July 2021, there was an article on LinkedIn, from a CEO from some big company, I can't remember who it was saying, remote. If you want to be an organization leader, if you want to develop your career, grow your career, you cannot be a remote employee, because of all the visibility because you need to be there where the people are that was, then I think that is still a concern. It's still a concern that some decisions and that some, it's not just about decisions, but the the flow of information might be difficult to access the flow of informal information that gives rise to opportunities within a company that that might be difficult to access. But I think that now we're more aware of it. And as you say, it's a question of organizations going back to even redesigning some of their processes so that it takes into account the fact that we're working from different places.
Theresa S. Hollema 8:39
Very true. I was following the company in order to write my book, I followed a company that just coincidentally, what is hybrid, and they've been hybrid for years. And they decided to do so because of their strategy. Actually, they are a bank. And they were asking their clients to and customers to be digital, right online banking. But when we looked inside, they realized, wait a minute, we're still using paper and pencil. And so they upped their game and became a very much of a hybrid organization, impressive 20,000 people the way they were doing it was really conscious and and deliberate. And one of the things that they were quite conscious of which was management, and making sure that management trainings included, included inclusion, so committed that they recognize the biases that could happen when people were not in the office and that they were not judging people, for instance, in performance reviews, or when they were giving resources to people or when they were assigning to different projects, that they weren't judging people because they were located in the office, but of course because of their talents. And so that consciousness of we need to give these messages because our human tendency, of course, is to is to judge what we see But we need to go beyond that and some of our unconscious biases, what do you think?
Pilar Orti 10:05
Well, I think that that is a bias that might be very new for some people, because we haven't had that before. And I think that hopefully we can bring it to the forefront. So that it's, it could be a conscious bias, but at least very conscious of it. And, and the thing is that, when we look at this, and we think about it from maybe a top down point of view, like the manager giving more attention to the person in the in, in the space with, or giving them more opportunities for better work or promotion, or whatever, but that my concern is within the team, and it's more within our core, our colleagues, the people we work with, and not realizing that Yeah, we might suddenly think that we look upon more favorably even upon someone who we spend more time in the location with which which always, which happens, the what is it the nearby effect or something like that. And, and that this happens without us realizing it, or that we start to make assumptions of why people are making some choices. I think it was in a conversation with you that you brought this up that sometimes we might judge someone because of the decision they've made. So we think that one of our team members is more committed, because they're in the office more all the time, or within that actually trying to show themselves and be very present, because they're in the office all the time. So I think it's really important to as part of the transition to this hybrid workspace as as well as all the practicalities to really help people be more self aware maybe than they were before.
Theresa S. Hollema 11:43
Nice. I recently was working with a team and we were talking about hybrid working. So a little bit of preparation for the future. And I asked the question of inclusion, what would it feel like for you to be not included. And I was very impressed by the answers impressed by how touched people were to say, wait a minute, they're not including me and information flow or in decisions or even in social events. And the pain that happens. And in fact, research shows that beat not being included can be physically painful. So this is a something we need to be very conscious of as we go forward.
Pilar Orti 12:21
Yeah, and and something that I suggest when organizations are looking at going hybrid is that instead of thinking hybrid that we think remote, that because the common space that everyone will have access most of the time. And of course, it really depends on the job and what you're doing and whether you've got specialist equipment, etc. But most of the time, the common space throughout the day, regardless of where people are physically based, is the online space. Because we're mainly talking here about knowledge workers. So you're going to be in the office using a computer probably online, same space as someone else at home. So if we come with that, I will almost say remote first mentality, but we don't need to. We think that that's our common space, then we think, okay, most communication needs to happen online in some shape or form, spontaneous conversations that happen in the same physical space, do they need to be reported in another way online so that everyone has access to them? So I think that thinking of that space, as I'm being communication space, could help to just be coming back to that, okay, who else needs to hear this, etc, sorry. And the same as if we have a larger proportion of our team members are remote, it could be that they're having lots of impromptu chats and stuff online, which might be easier. So again, same thing, just to be aware of, who are we leaving out that needs to be involved?
Theresa S. Hollema 13:48
I love that advice. The online space is actually the common space and the technology is there to support it. So it's no longer That's no longer the issue. It's really a mentality and thinking about how we work together.
Pilar Orti 14:00
And it could be that when having said that, we will be operating slightly different to when everyone was online all the time, if that was the case before. So I think that we just need to tweak, tweak, stop, because there will be more, there might be even more that we need to do deliberately than when we all were all only in that remote space.
Theresa S. Hollema 14:21
But I think when as we've seen with through the pandemic, many people are using that technology in a way that is tiring. So for instance, agenda filled video meetings, from morning to the afternoon, just one meeting after the other. I think there's still the opportunity to be a little bit more clever about how they use people are using the tools especially including more asynchronous, what do you think about that Pilar?
Pilar Orti
Completely. And I'm going to go back to what you were saying earlier about flexibility. If what we want is flexibility then this becomes not just about location, but also about time how we use our time. And by this, I don't necessarily mean flexible schedules, because it could be that we don't have the room for that. But it could be about I want to choose, when I do my deep work, I want to choose when I communicate with my team members, I want to choose when I give information that's, that's relevant and timely to team members. So if we're only relying on synchronous, real time communication, which is about all of us sharing space, sorry, showing time, if not physical space, then we don't we're not as flexible. Then for example, if I want to communicate with you three, sir, we have to set a time or we have to both jump on a call together. Whereas if this information I want to give to you at any time during the day, so that you gather it any time during your day, then we need those processes. And then that asynchronous communication becomes something that we access, when we're in the best place emotionally, physically Connect cognitively to access it. Does that make sense?
Theresa S. Hollema 16:05
Oh, it makes perfect sense. And actually, you've been quite an advocate for that, even before the pandemic, you have a pamphlet called visible teamwork. And it very much highlights that we are communicating and connecting with each other and expressing ourselves to each other using all the tools you would like to say a few words about that.
Pilar Orti 16:29
Yes, it's it really is about van and it's about going back to the online space is there to give us that space, that flexibility. And so what are some of the ways in which we can stay in touch with each other about the work about ourselves, which will help us to still feel connected, even though we are not in the same physical space. And also, we might not be even in the time space. So the now that you mentioned the visible teamwork, which is really just a set of principles that I've been observing in distributed company, so mainly pre pandemic, and it's really about what kind of information do we need to know about each other as people that will affect how we interact. So for example, if you've had a really bad night's sleep, or if you have visitors at home, or if you are not available that afternoon, for whatever reason. But in the online space, unless we're deliberate about this, this information gets lost. But we don't always need to communicate this information in real time. So many distributed companies will have online processes by which they regularly communicate this. And then what do we need to know about the work, because work visibility in very different ways, is a point of alignment of productivity and also of connection. But again, unless we know how we're doing this, either with a project management tool that's visible to everyone, or by sharing documents online that we're working with, or by sharing what we're thinking throughout the day in again, in a shared document, unless we have those processes in place, there's all these that gets lost when we're not together. So I think, for example, if we go back to hybrid, and we have a team and say, we've got flexibility in the team, and you the best days for you to come in on monday and friday and minor Wednesday and Thursday, we're going to have very few opportunities to just share some informal, informal conversation or what you're thinking about the work or not. So again, how do we use that online space so that when I want to share what I'm thinking about something with you, if it's a Tuesday morning, and you're not available, that's fine, I've got somewhere to put it. And then you can either read it or listen to it later on. So it gives us that flexibility. But it takes a lot of planning and agreement.
Theresa S. Hollema 18:49
I think you're spot on and about planning and agreement. I think that those should be the buzzwords as we go forward with this. But I would also like to, to recommend your document the virtual, sorry, the visible teamwork, to people as they're starting to think about how can we make this work? And before we close, I would like to sort of share with each other or explore together. What have we noticed? What are companies starting to do? What do you hear on the street? PLR? Shall we just share a couple ideas?
Pilar Orti 19:22
Yes, do you want to start to do I feel like I've been talking forever?
Theresa S. Hollema
Well, it's amazing the diversity of solutions. I think it's which makes sense. Of course, each company is different. And hopefully they're taking the pulse in some sort of form of what their employees want and need. So PLR What do we notice in the market? What is what are companies doing? Do you see some trends? For instance, I noticed that some one of my clients said, here's a number of days per quarter, use them as you want. Another client said I want you two days in the office. I would love to have you three days. Deloitte said, use your time as you want, we trust you to take care of your clients and your colleagues. What are you noticing as some of the ways that companies are bringing hybrid into their organizations because it's so varied, it very varied.
Pilar Orti
Yes. And I've seen the classic two days in the office, I've, I've even heard something like, we'd like you to be in the office one day, every two weeks, which I think, and another one is your team can come in this week, then next week, they have to work away from the office from home, and then another team can come in, because I think what we need to realize is that at the time of recording, there's still restrictions around the pandemic. So I think that is also being incorporated into how organizations are defining how to use the space,
Theresa S. Hollema 20:50
I think you're spot on, I think there's we're going to be phasing this in, we are still in a pandemic, as you say. And so how we figure this out will be a step by step process and feedback. And being looking at this as an experiment. And being very attuned to what's happening is really crucial at this moment.
Pilar Orti 21:08
And something I'm seeing, which is making me very happy is how much organized organizations and leaders are talking to their people and finding out what they really want. And I saw this example from an organization called silver chair with a really rather than saying it's going to be x days or that days, they've said, we're going to look at one, how are we going to use the office in the future, because something that they saw in a survey is that actually people thought that the office wasn't really that fit for purpose. So their planning is all around needs and norms in the workplace. And they're really looking at how to re engage with the physical office, and one of the things they're doing is they're going to look at it more, setting up, setting it up in a co working style. So you know, co working spaces are the spaces where you just go with your laptop and work which are really built around community. And so they're looking at having specific areas for different kinds of activities, like activity based working. And of course, some teams might need areas, for example, the people, teams might need an area where they can have confidential conversations on the phone, etc. So it might be that different teams have different needs. And they're really looking at whether the, the office is the best place for an individual or their home. So it could be that they're saying, Well, if you want to use the office full time, that's fine. If you want to be home full time, that's fine. But I really like this, redesigning the office space, and also needs a normal versus days he or not,
Theresa S. Hollema 22:43
I think that's fantastic. I mean, because as we're talking about these two, or three, or whatever that may be, or take whatever time, there are people that actually like or prefer or need to be in the office for whatever reasons. It's not like everyone has a lot of space in their homes that they can also allocate to work. It's been tough for many people during the pandemic. So I really like that, hey, you decide. But I also think as well, there needs to be conversations on team level to say, Hey, how are we going to work together, given what each of us needs and what we need to accomplish together?
Pilar Orti 23:18
Yeah, it's a really, it's going to be a long conversation, as you said, there's going to need to be a lot of experimentation, feedback. And also a lot of saying, Is this what we really meant? we're assigning this Yes, at all levels.
Theresa S. Hollema 23:34
I think you're spot on there. One thing I I look forward to, is I was quite impressed by leadership development that has happened during the pandemic, I because leaders that used to rely on very directive, I need to see you in order to believe you're working, have started to rely on trust and you know, clear objectives and treating people as as adults, let's say, you know, I, and people and employees have proven that they are trustworthy. So I hope we hold on to this, this caring, empathy. Working together, even from a distance we can still collaborate and be creative and get things done together. So I hope leaders have a new mindset for how to engage with employees with their teams. What do you think about that?
Pilar Orti 24:21
I completely and the mindset of being all away from each other and how we operate navigate that might be slightly different to now using two spaces. It really is sad. It is embracing the how we'll work together in a in a different way. And I think mindset is that the key of it, yes.
Theresa S. Hollema 24:39
Being experimental being opened, embracing feedback, and adapting as we learn. So these are some of the key messages, anything to add to that.
Pilar Orti 24:50
Just revisiting our assumptions. And I'll give you a very concrete example. So something I'm hearing is a lot of collaboration activities are best It's better to have them in the office, which of course, we know collaboration is a wide, wide word. But I think what they mean a lot of the time is that things that we want to be together are better done in the office. And then for people when they want to concentrate on tasks to be at home, and that, for example, will not work for everyone. It could be that some people actually prefer to go to the office to do their solo tasks, because they they like being in that environment, it helps them to concentrate. And some people might prefer to have meetings online because it helps them to focus or for whatever reason, whatever reason. So I think that revisiting any assumptions, going back to the beginning of the conversation, checking in with our biases, and understanding our biases and huge self awareness, and balancing that individual flexibility with the team accountability and collaboration is is a lot to be looking out for.
Theresa S. Hollema 25:53
Great advice. Pilar. Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast and for your support for the Center for the advancement of virtual organizations. We truly, truly, really appreciate your insights and we know our listeners will benefit from your experience. Thank you, pillar. You're welcome. delighted to have been here.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai