Brand of Brothers
I'll Drink To That
September 02, 2020
Brand of Brothers
Season 1
Episode 3
I'll Drink To That
Brand of Brothers
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How designers UX
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Brand of Brothers
I'll Drink To That
Sep 02, 2020
Season 1
Episode 3
Brand of Brothers
Join us as our host, Doug Berger, talks about his latest favorite brand update; offers up a top typeface review and backstory; provides a logo history lesson you may not learn in school; and delivers some wisdom nuggets you definitely don't learn there. Plus, the enigmatic Josh Smith aka Hydro74 stops in to tell us like it is!
Adobe XDHow designers UX
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Join us as our host, Doug Berger, talks about his latest favorite brand update; offers up a top typeface review and backstory; provides a logo history lesson you may not learn in school; and delivers some wisdom nuggets you definitely don't learn there. Plus, the enigmatic Josh Smith aka Hydro74 stops in to tell us like it is!
Adobe XDHow designers UX
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
0:00
This episode is sponsored in part by Adobe XD, how designers UX. Learn more at adobe.com/XD.
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It's time for another installment of Brand of Brothers. My name is Doug Berger, and I will be your host through this branding journey. In this episode, I'm excited to share with you the latest in brand refreshes, a history lesson, wisdom nuggets, and Josh Smith, also known as Hydro74, stops in to tell us like it is. Let's get branding.
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Brand Updates
0:31
Let's talk about our latest favorite brand refresh New Holland brewing. This one is exceedingly new, so it may not have made it to your neck of the woods just yet. So for those of you who haven't experienced it for yourselves, you can find it on our Instagram feed or on our website brandshowlive.com on a scale of resounding success to epic failure. Was it the good, the bad or the ugly? Well, it did make the favorite brand refresh segment didn't it? So, let's begin with a little backstory, shall we? picture it, Michigan on the shores of Lake macatawa. Very close to Lake Michigan. We're talking the southwest side of the MIT. And, of course, they have a really old windmill. And what is now a bit of a tourist trap called windmill Island gardens. I'm pretty sure the island wasn't even an island to start with, but whatever. So anyhow, Holland, Holland, Michigan, that is, is also home to the tulip time festival. And in case I haven't managed to paint the picture for you just yet. This place is steeped in Dutch heritage Well, in the 90s, Brett Vander camp, or maybe its founder camp started New Holland brewing. So not only did we get another craft beer company at the tail end of the 20th century, because you know, we We needed one of those. We also got that questionably nostalgic, millennia era brewery logo with its kind of grungy hand hewn serif typography and oversized flanking letters stretching beyond the lips, which can't seem to contain the design elements to begin with. Even the windmill panels are busting through it. And how do I even know they're windmill panels, you ask? Well, there's illustrated wind. The anyhow, the rebrand is spectacular. Not because I wasn't a fan of the previous look. It's probably just because I'm a sucker for this kind of design. So Adam Dickerson, their brand manager, he's touting this Dutch word, Gazelle league. I am so sorry. If you speak Dutch, I still don't even know how to properly pronounce a van Gogh. Is it fun golf. Whatever. So gizelle this word supposedly captures the spirit. The brand is meant to convey, right? So it's innovative, it's welcoming. It's resourceful, it's cozy, it's friendly, and relaxing. And Holy shit. It does all of that. Rather than being a background element now, the windmill is brought front and center. It's clean. It's elegant. It's iconic. And it's a really lovely interpretation of the old Diwan windmill. It actually looks better than the real thing. The typography Oh the typography. It has so much personality and character, but it remains sophisticated. They have truly managed to create a classic, timeless yet modern brand language. Let's just say I'm looking forward to seeing if the new brews are as tasty as this refreshing brand refresh. Try saying that three times. fast. Oh yeah, I'm supposed to read it. I give it a rating of all drink to that. And of course, since we are all averse to change, how can it be improved? I don't know. I'm gonna have to get nitpicky here in order to really tear this thing apart. So there is a little bit of weirdness to some of the lettering of the primary logo type some strange nuances that only happened on maybe half the letters, maybe a touch more. And there's some inconsistency in the weights and curves, but perhaps that's what gives it some of the charm that's so endearing. Nonetheless, I clearly enjoy this New Holland brewing brand refresh this new New Holland brand refresh. Either way, I think it will look very good in my refrigerator. Review forms, so is it an oldie but a goodie or something fresh from the typographic oven? Well, the latest Fave is relatively new. If you look back 20 years ago like I do and go holy shit the year 2000 Was 20 years ago. Anyhow, it's Gotham. As far as I'm concerned. This font family is pure royalty. I mean, not only is it quintessential typographic perfection, it has a sordid history full of drama and intrigue. No, seriously. So, first, this typeface was designed by Tobias frary Jones assuming I'm even pronouncing his name correctly.
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It seems to be an affliction of mine. And it was a little collaboration or a colab. If you're hip with the lingo, clearly I'm not because I think it might actually be pronounced collab. What was I saying? Oh, right, with a little collab with Jesse Reagan. If you don't know who these legends are, because at this point, they're friggin legends. It's totally worth looking them up. But Reagan was one of frary Joneses protegees and he created some killer tips. faces including Sentinel and Archer, as well as logo types for Glade and USA TODAY FOR Ray Jones, on the other hand, was one of the founders of heckler frary Jones, which is now half Learning Company. Let's just say things didn't end very well. They settled out of court, yada yada but while Jonathan Butler and Tobias ferry Jones work together, they created amazing logo types, fonts, font families, whatever you want to call them. typefaces for wall street, journal, GQ, countless others, I mean, pentagram hired them one of my favorite design studios that I may have a habit of referencing far too often. So a little backstory on ferry Jones, he's from Brooklyn. He received a BFA from RISD D. Soon after he joined font bureau where among other notables, he created the interstate typeface, so, to say he's a typographic ninja would be an understatement. I swear his fonts just sneak up on you and smack you on the eyeballs. They're, they're amazing. So long story short, frary Jones now has his own workshop and as a professor or instructor or whatever the teacher title is that he has at Yale. You know, that place where Paul Rand taught graphic design. It's pretty famous and probably for other reasons, too, but really, who cares right now? Anyhow, so back to the typeface. According to the font foundries website, Gotham celebrates the attractive and unassuming lettering of the City, New York City that is, which is teeming with such letters handmade sans serif that share a common underlying structure and engineers idea of basic lettering that transcends both the characteristics of their materials, and the mannerisms of their makers. It goes on it goes on it goes on and although designers have lived with them for more than half a century, they remarkably went on revived until the year 2000. The distant future the year 2000, when we introduced Gotham, or in less flowery terms and Wikipedia explains Gotham is a geometric sans serif typeface family. Gotham's letter forms were inspired by examples of architectural signage of the mid 20th century. And because I would never want to disappoint, I have a couple Haiku reviews for you. All right, first one. No nonsense or bane sophistication. Insane. typeface shall remain. Or maybe you want something a little more New York. Strong, smart infection hafler leaves zero convection, taste of perfection. All right now it's fun. I hope you enjoyed it too. Either way. Thanks for tolerating my inane passion for the 575 and of course, you can see the typeface for yourself on our Instagram our website, Rancho live.com, as well as fonts by Heckler and company's website. typography calm.
8:52
Logo history was
8:55
way back in the 1900s before Adobe Illustrator or even the Macintosh or Even before we re appropriated the term branding from ranchers, there were the true pioneers of modern graphic design. Since we talked about Nike. In our last episode, I thought I'd keep the trend going by exploring yet another one of the foremost memorable logos, according to a genuine scientific study reported in a legitimate journal by some fancy sciency people with degrees and stuff. So let's dive into some Appleseed deliciousness. That's right, we're talking about Apple. The history of the Apple logo, like many of the origin stories out of Cupertino is quite enchanting. In case you're unfamiliar, the original Apple logo, which has virtually zero relationship to what you know, and presumably love today was created by Ronald Wayne, who I believe was a co founder of apple. How many co founders did they have? And oh, yeah, notice my hesitation of suggesting it was designed. It was not it was assembled anyway. It was clearly intended to represent the law of gravity and give the name justification. So yeah, it's an engraved illustration of Isaac Newton under a tree. And the oddly framed engraving is wrapped with some terribly rendered an overly saadawi ribbon that's almost medieval in nature. And in the ribbon is some rather questionably rendered serif typeface that reads Apple Computer Co. Thankfully, this so called logo didn't last very long. This version was created in 1976. And in 1977, we are introduced to a much more graphic rendition by Rob jenoff, who worked with Regis McKenna as an art director and was tasked to design the logo for Steve Jobs. At the time it was created, it was definitely a thing of genius. The bite mark definitely helped define it as an apple on a visual level, making it rather unmistakable of other produce. It gets a bit wonky and its cleverness By adding rainbow Lake stripes and I must confess that OCD side of me really hates the fact that they're not in order. But the colored stripes were meant to signify the fact that Apple computers had color. Interestingly enough, each of those rainbow colors are specifically created for Apple, right the apple icon with which you are familiar was accompanied by an outdated logo type, the only red apple and all lowercase o and a fun note about jenoff. He graduated with a degree in Industrial Design, which kind of was a thing back then, to transition from industrial design into graphic design. He then went on to work for a handful of Silicon Valley design agencies as a result of his vast design experience working with notable tech companies in the area. When he landed at Regis McKenna, his creative director tapped him to produce the corporate ID. For apple. Suffice it to say his career has remained on solid footing ever since. But seven years later in 1984, branding powerhouse landor Associates got their hands on the logo. They separated the glyphs from the letter forms and gave the brand new typeface permutations of that typeface will live on for quite some time during the glyphs lifetime. In 1988. Apple experienced a Renaissance and so too did its signature Apple icon bringing the design process entirely in house they turned the rainbow ish logo Mark into a glassy jelly three dimensional trendy mess. And as quickly as that happened, it became a solid flat graphic icon, which is actually what they use today. But, so this was simple, yet powerful. And in 2001, they Chroma FIDE it, but apparently it was too chromia not graphic enough. So they added a sliver of a reflection to disrupt the gradients. I gotta tell you, I really remember liking this back in 2007. And then in 2014 or so, we went back to the one color strikingly solid logo, and taking a cue from Nike, they dropped the logo type all together. It's worth noting The logo marks original basic design structure still remains today. That's pretty fucking impressive to me. So you're probably wondering, Doug, do you even like the Apple logo? This might be a really controversial response. And hopefully it doesn't get me into too much trouble, if any at all. Actually don't.
13:21
It's gotten better over the years. I'll give it that. But when you actually take time to examine it, it's pretty fucked up. The design lacks visual harmony despite the Fibonacci golden rectangle reverse engineering rationale. It's borderline discordant. Fuck math. If it doesn't look good, fix it. I feel the bite is just visually too high in the STEM should be flipped. So the visual weight is balanced, right? Like, why was this ever a thing? How come this was never addressed? Even Newton's third law suggests the logo is wrong. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if the bite is on the right, shouldn't the stem be on the left? But of course the logo is ubiquitous, and we've seen it so often, we have become immune to its questionable design. If we flip the stem, we would all look at it and go, Oh, I guess I see what you're talking about. But it would look so weird to us since we are so used to seeing it executed with such imperfection. I mean, fuck, we've kind of been trained to like bad design. Look, it doesn't deserve an F plus, sorry for the Tenacious D reference. It does deserve a passing grade however, like a good one, maybe a B plus, possibly even an A minus, but only if I've had a couple adult beverages. Let's just say it's no Nike swoosh. And for those keeping score, I'm talking about the refined swoosh not the original original swoosh Oh, shit. This is gonna get me into more trouble than I thought it was, isn't it? Oh, well, moving on. I should answer some questions.
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inquiring minds.
14:55
So we have a few fun questions. The first question is regarding Comic Sans. The second question is regarding picking color. And the third question is regarding brand advice for nonprofit organizations. So let's start with with Comic Sans. So the answer is just no. There are so many better typefaces out there that aren't being used by elementary school teachers, and novice designers, if you can even call them designers. So the answer is just no. So we're not going to give that question much more credence. I distinctly remember leaving a really bad review for a hotel that had a sign in Comic Sans. So then the next question is regarding color selection. So there's a lot of research that's gone into color theory and the psychological impact of color. So when working with a client, what makes sense is to establish what the tone is, right? So to come up with a method for identifying a handful of words that directly correlate to what you're trying to emote, and then when you have that grab bag of words, use existing science leverage existing science. Now obviously, it might be the color blue, but it doesn't have to be royal blue. It can be any shade of blue, so long as it still captures the core essence. Then, advice for nonprofits. Wow. Really, the best advice I can offer is to find a design firm that is willing to partner with you, meaning they're going to basically donate money 95% of their services never ever, ever engage with someone who's just going to give it away for free. There are so many reasons why that is bad business. The key one is value. When someone is giving you a product for free, what is the intrinsic value, you're assigned to something that's free versus something that you're paying for. So that psychological connection is super important. And so as a designer, you know, it's, it's fine to give away something every now and again, but you deserve something in return for a nonprofit organization. When there is a service that you want, you should have some sort of a budget for it. So it makes sense that there would be a partnership it should be symbiotic. So in terms of how a nonprofit organization could benefit from branding advice, that's when you leverage an expert right? You need your air conditioner fixed. You don't hire a plumber. You need your, your elbow fixed. You don't hire an electrician, you go to a doctor, especially one that that that specializes in elbows. So why wouldn't you go to a designer that specializes in providing you the service that you need? And to quote or possibly paraphrase Forrest Gump? That's all I have to say about that. He said a designer, he's an illustrator. He's a typographer. He's a humble philosopher who happens to wield his power through commercial art. Josh Smith has a distinct style that transcends traditional media into the digital realm. His drive and determination are consistent defining factors that are ever present in his creative work partnering with the left Some Nike Lucasfilm Microsoft Xbox EA Sports Burton snowboards Red Bull New York Times Hasbro let me cut to the chase. If you don't actually have something he has designed on one level or another, you've definitely encountered his genius on store shelves or in a video game. Without further ado, let's just jump right in as indicative of your process with your tight sketches. You are clearly a skilled artist. When did you realize you could draw and Do you remember what that moment felt like or how it was transformative?
19:37
I never realized I could draw I mean it was all frickin bullshit. Because when I was in middle school or no I mean elementary I would draw all the time but we're not talking anything good. Jim Davis from the Garfield fame came into our school and I think it was his a scholastic or something like that, but he's, he was talking about Garfield and he drew like the character real quick and the first time I saw someone actually draw something like Just a couple ovals. No So I started practicing Garfield never never was good at it. But I was really good at drawing Garfield with a deck. And in third grade, my friends love that they're like, what is that Garfield? Tell him like it's not detail, detail. But anyway, going back to drawing, but yeah, I never really control very well.
20:21
Even during school it's like
20:24
when I started going to graphic design start building a site. It was just really bad Powerpuff Girls meets anime, and it was really, really crappy. And then I have some friends out with a site and I mean, it wasn't like I just never had that skill level. But when I started working in Illustrator, I could take an object and then maybe I'd like printed off and just kind of like do like a little sketch over the top of it. Just kind of know where the components are like, I'm doing like a lion or a tiger as an example I could put on a table just kind of like okay, Eyes hear noses here. ears are here. And this is kind of a rough how the fur could look. Now the skin I back in, you know, back in the day when scanners was a thing. And I would just give it a try and like illustrator and I would just, it was easy for me to formulate. And over the years, I just got to a point where it became kind of second nature, because it's me kind of massaging. It's how I illustrate is more of a tool of like a 3d artists it's sculpting. It's like I just I just know where certain things go. So working digitally with my mouse, which is really weird. I can sculpt the thing where I need to be and it gives me the ability to figure out all that stuff. But if I'm sit down with a pen and paper, I can do some basic stuff. But it's not anything. Not anything like art worthy by any means.
21:48
When it comes to your drawing skills and your prowess there. You're like, Yeah, not so much.
21:54
But I mean it's been awesome Saturday cuz the thing is, I don't know about you, but you're good at What you do, but there are people above you that you were extremely envious on. And to me, that is the inspiration for me to want to get better. I can't necessarily draw like them, but I can try to get to where maybe the things I do digitally, you know, through clicking through whatever process I do, I can at least get the representation because as a good example, I was looking at a lot of Rick refund stuff back in the day and Jim Phillips, and when I would do my trips out to LA to new clients, they had a couple great bookstores, and then what they're called, but there's this one that was always old school books. And so I found like this old Rick Griffin book, I think they reprinted it so you can get it now. But it was amazing. So when I was looking at his liner, which is all pen and ink. One thing popped my mind is like how can I get my lines not to be so clean? How does the imperfection align where you saw the grip on the paper, even though it was thick and you couldn't see through but it was it was still there's a certain element faction there. And I think that kind of changed the dynamic. I mean, it's kind of dirty there for a little bit. But I realize if you're drawing like a skull as a great example, it's like don't go clean. It's like it needs to have imperfections, it needs to have like, you need to lose some symmetry. It's like, even if it's just adding like a little something on the other side, because nothing's truly that's, that's organic is perfectly symmetrical. I mean, I think that's the fallacy what people do now and illustration work, it's like, those little things kind of add up to beauty. So for a while there, my premise was a imperfection with imperfection. Because imperfection is perfection, yada yada yada, yada. But that was just kind of that was kind of like a grinding gear from early 2000s. into the teens. I guess you could say, My, how I evolved, I guess you could say.
23:45
Okay, cool. So next question. When I look at your work, it's clear there is a deeper artistry to what you do than what's on the surface of the final product. Do you think of yourself more as an illustrator or a designer And how does that impact how you present yourself professionally?
24:05
I don't consider myself either of those to be perfectly honest, I consider myself a business owner. I run a business, I provide a service. And the thing is, I don't like to be labeled as one or the other because that that begins to limit you, doesn't it? It becomes worse like, Oh, he's only this or he's only bad. So what's the best way to explain it? Well, here's, here's a story. I did a portfolio review. I think Parker was there and I love Clark art. And so he's I consider him more of a designer Lee illustrator, but he's really good at what he does. So they're asking him some questions and we don't really heard from the illustrator. He's like, Josh, you have an opinion. I'm like, yeah, I'm not an illustrator. It's like, I have to work through all the paperwork with Hasbro Lucas Films, Dungeons and Dragons, Disney msnbc or CNBC and psych The list goes on and like there's so much better stuff on this. The byproduct of all this work is me actually doing something as illustrated. But the thing is I'm providing a service to it. So does it matter if I do type in my type ographers now and am I limited to that? Or if I'm just doing illustrations and I just limited to that? It's like no, I run my run an agency of one and keep in mind I'm like, really jaded, really all the seven. I rarely ever let that ego side of me out because I hate it. But it was still a whole thing where I was so freakin pissed off because I didn't like to be pigeonholed because it sounds so it sounds sort of submissive, you know, but it's still the whole thing at the end of the day. It's just
25:39
I mean, you can edit the shadow you want to
25:42
move on to the next one. You have a distinctive style, which may be described as digital modernism with its allusions to woodcut engraving or linoleum printmaking, but there's a distinctive craftsmanship you present that is graphically precise. Can you explain that? How your aesthetic evolved into what it is today?
26:03
Well, it, I think it's this because with time and with the knowledge of the software because well okay, I guess the best way to look at it is I think every designer has this system in play. First, you begin and then you're just trying to figure out what you're doing. Then once you have the ability to work, the tools and finally success from be able to work the tools properly, then the next phase becomes chasing. And as you're chasing, you're just basically emulating with your own ingredients, I guess you could say. It's like you're influenced heavily by the people. It's like, I mean, a great recent one would be draplin think about how many hipster artists decide to awesome come like draplin clones, and then they're basically post sounds like look at my work. I'm like, this is a grappling rip off, Dude, come on. It's like at least change it up at least to some different colors. I mean, but it's like but The thing is, we've all been there. I mean, I was a chaser obey and my giant because my giants liner and simplicity was amazing. Obey was a very vektory kind of sort of thing and I had the pleasure of talking to shepherd multiple times. And it's great to because he actually remembers Angel. Yeah, yeah, you're the hydro guy. And finally He's like, hey, Josh, I'm like, Oh, damn, first name basis, this uncle. But once we get past the chase and kind of realize that we are in our own unique voice, then it goes from chasing to seeking and then that depends on where you're seeking. So for me, it's like, I have all these higher artists. And people have higher skill levels from centuries ago, two decades ago, but you know, it's like, I have old books like, you know, a Greg who Ruta. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Gerard Ruta. David quais. Like these people are brilliant on what they did. And I just I like to look at that stuff and try to figure out like, how can sprinkle in just a little bit of that, because they paid their way they made the resources available by their own body of work. And so for me, it's like instead of chasing that, like I'm trying to chase where, in my own mind by trying to point where I can't do this anymore, what Why leave behind and we'll just be like the crappy stuff that was during the Haifa my career, or will be the stuff that was later on. It's like so I'm just, I'm trying to figure I just I'm trying to seek something that has sustainable value, at least for a generation to come. Even if it's only with my kids are very, very small people. There's still some chasing, but it's still it's chasing with the purpose of becoming unique within a cog, I guess. So anyway, I don't have to answer this question. But going back to like all the terms that you said, it's like, honestly, just every step has been me seeing something and trying to figure out how to recreate that. And like what the action stuff I'm not good at like Tracy Chang is frickin brilliant at it. Gregory Titus. He's more, he draws it manually, but he is so good as all the stores Black Series dudes. And then there's like these other guys that are very, I forgot one guy's name, but he's very precise on like, how he does his entry and stuff like that. And there's like these other artists too. So I mean, in a way, it's like, I'm just trying to figure all that stuff. But it's just I see something, I try to do it. And then I do it enough times where it becomes halfway decent. And then by that time, I'm the worst designer because it gets old to me. So I'm onto something new. So anyway, that's just my blah, blah, blah. All right,
29:35
fair enough. burgeoning designers try to basically accomplish two things set themselves apart from the rest and get noticed. No doubt, you've managed to do just that. And I think your origin story of persistence and defiance, play a big part in this. Can you talk to us about that?
29:53
So the persistence has just basically been the idea that I'm fearful about failure and not because of projects being fearful failure, it's more just the ability to not to fail is something I'm so passionate about, which is wanting to design wanting to make wanting to create wanting to have the ability to have people at least enjoy it enough to where I can have bills being paid. Now the defiance part of that is a whole different subsections. So I guess the best way to explain it is that it was one of those things that kind of like dawned on me, because like five or six years ago, I really don't remember. But the one thing in my life because the biggest structure of it that you know, it's talked about occasionally is just basically from five to about, you know, into high school into college, which is a very brutal time for me. There's a lot of stuff that went on during that time. That was just, it was it was horrible. And so I always had that as weird crutch even now Like looking back and I got to a point where it become like this thing where my inner monologue just because of how those few years of my early life dictated me was always whispering exact same things on my step that wizard when you say your affiliate, you're gonna grow up to be nobody that bla bla bla bla bla bla. So that stuff just resonates with you and no matter how much you try to ignore it, that voice is always going to be there. So when a project goes south, that voice comes up if you get hit up for a gig but then you decide to go with like this other designer or other agents and you're kind of like where are you going with them I'm bid was cheaper and I can get this done half the time. Doesn't really matter. But still that whisper kind of comes in or late at night you're watching like some movie and then all sudden there's something that's just said there has no relevance and then that whisper comes again. So Kevin, this mantra being defined by defiance, and it's not defiance towards people, it's defiance against the inner monologue, the past everything that tells you that you are a failure. To read to be defined is knowing that in its darkest moment when you've been beaten to the ground, and you hear the referee, basically counting to 10, and part of you just wants to lay there and give up. That's the moment when you should never give up, you should actually get back up, or stand back up and basically just fight. It's like it's almost like the Phuket rule. Because I haven't learned that a long time ago, there's times when you can't figure something out, you have to say fuck and step away from it. And then just ignore it. Because when you come back out, or come back at with fresh eyes, things change drastically. Or if you're behind on bills, sometimes you'll say fuck it and stop thinking about it, then come back to it with how can I fix this and then eventually you're going to see the path where it goes. So that was the whole concept of defiance is, is to better my own personal self, and to have a reason, even during times when I feel like I have no reason because I'm pretty sure like you It's like we have our weeks where we just felt like shit. And it's like, it's just it's hard to eat have the desire to just do anything or use in from computer for five hours, just like moving around like a couple of things and you know, you have stuff to do, but it's just there's no desire to do it, you know. And those are the moments when I tell myself, it's like, I have to be defiant to that. It's like I need to force my way forward.
33:24
Maybe life with bills, maybe life with kids might be like, whatever it's like.
33:30
It's just a way for me to answer
33:35
the problems and try to figure out a way to solve them. And it's a defiance of just not allowing the problem become the problem, but to actually find a solution and solving. So that's kind of what it kind of represents.
33:46
Dude, that's awesome. So, we've all got stories, both personal and professional, that have shaped who we are like major fuckup moments that teach us an important lesson. And as a self taught, designer, what was or were the biggest professional lesson or lessons you learned that still impact you today.
34:08
And I think everybody enjoys a good like, you know, client horror story, you know, it's like the client was this and that. I think, for me, it was a job. And the thing is, as much as I hate that job, I try not to publicly say too much about it because at the end of the day, it's like, it's just, I don't think it adds any value doesn't add any value to me does add any value to them. And you would clients where I've had bad relationships with I was raised about for a while, but it made me realize one thing is, again, there is no substance there. That's just me being mad for a reason. And it doesn't bring me anything, and it doesn't bring them anything. So it's kind of pointless really. Clients is really weird because no matter like we all have our stories, but I think at the end of the day My particular thing that I enjoy most is when there's misunderstanding and you get to a phase with the client that you kind of like laugh at us like holy shit, I gotta mean for that communication go that way. And when you kind of get past the whole stress of you're not nailing what you need to do to say, okay, we were both like talking about, it's like, we're talking about fruit, but you're proposing the bananas and you're showing me the urn, I was showing you the apples, you know, it's like, I just, it wasn't really sinking. So those are the ones I actually really like, I had many of those with Nike, because it's kind of hard when you work long distance between things. And, you know, they'll show like their style guides and all that, but sometimes you're just like, okay, so where do I fit into the equation?
35:47
Totally. So what is the most satisfying part of what you do like from client approval to seeing your stuff on store shelves, what aspects of your career make you want to celebrate?
35:59
Oh, see? That's the thing where I
36:03
that question is a funny one just because I think my favorite part of the day and maybe it's just because of the way this year has been, I've been definitely enjoying the study of bourbon and scotch. So I'm pretty sure during this whole thing you probably probably wonder so I'm probably I'm a weird conundrum. Like, I'm all over the map, but I think the basicness of me is like, I'm just, I'm just passionate about what I do. I don't really get that excited when I see in stores. I mean, if I do I buy it. Just because I'm kind of like, a this is mine. And I think my kids actually find it more rewarding. I'm happy they can wake up in the morning, you know, have a coffee, have a cigarette, or to just kind of like chill out, relax, get inspired, come and do something. They do it then go and get another cup of coffee, look at my emails or something need to revision hecate on it, you know, it's like, I get enthusiastic about the stupid shit. Because I and I'm not. I'm not a business owner owner. I just treat it as a business, you know?
36:58
Sure. I totally AM. Stand. You know, I really appreciate you coming by. Do you have any parting words for us?
37:11
crickets
37:15
there's something like
37:19
I mean parting words. Okay, so
37:23
I guess it just kind of depends on the audience really, but I guess the parting words would be
37:30
it's just
37:32
if you're passionate about doing something, just do it with all your might. Okay, any parting words?
37:41
Don't jerk off after cutting jalapenos.
37:47
You know, I'm going to keep that right.
37:50
Trust me, it's happened.
37:52
So we are your parting words. Always wash your hands after cutting jalapenos.
38:01
Yes.
38:05
Good stuff. So if you're interested in learning more about Josh Smith, go visit his website hydro 74 calm. That's Dr. O seven four.com. He's even got some cool swag on there. And there's some limited edition prints to go check it out. Now it's time to talk about something that may or may not have happened in my decades long career and Well, what I learned from it. So we've talked about toxic clients collaboration, what more is there to discuss, right? Oh, I know. How about this one? How much does it cost? You know how much for a logo let's say. Sometimes tire kickers can turn into the best clients. And man if I had a nickel for every time I was asked that question How much for a logo? Well, I'd have a lot of nickels. I actually helped someone not long ago. Over on the Facebook, her question was a bit on the complicated side and had nothing to do with pricing a logo in particular Instead, it was about so she's licensing t shirt designs to a National Park, which is pretty cool. He asked me well, her desire was to establish a flat royalty percentage, but that creates a significant set of complications, especially without a pro forma or some kind of manner to establish projected units sold. In her case, I suggested she established a flat rate based on the assumption she creates a design that never yields any purchases, because her work still has value even if the distributor fails to successfully reach the appropriate target audiences. After all, why should she be penalized for their inability to exercise they're part of the process. But then, if the design is inordinately successful, why shouldn't she be appropriately compensated? I began by helping her come up with a simple formula, which like the shirts that are being sold in this case, There's no one size fits all approach. Either way, the big idea was to define a handful of terms. First, what is the initial value of the design? This is dependent upon a number of variables that are both qualitative and quantitative. Since that my newsha can get boring really quickly, we're just going to skip ahead. So we're gonna just assume that the design has a random value of $1,000. Again, this is a random number, don't get caught up on that. So then we have to determine what the terms net or gross sales means. This is critical for the purpose of the contract. I originally suggested, she charged a percentage of gross sales. However, she opted for net sales, which in my opinion, opens a much larger can of worms. I helped her define net in this context as a result, because what is net So essentially, it's the cost of the actual textile, the shirt in this instance The amortized cost of the silkscreen process itself. So basically you're taking the cost of setting up the screens and then actually applying the ink to the substrate and dividing that by the number of shirts that are being made at that point in time based on that cost. And then any discounts, all subtracted from the retail price. So if you don't define this in the contract net might remain at zero until the client recoups all their costs, including the flat fee for the design or designs. Well, she felt that the most fair way to approach this was to ask for 8% net. Another commenter chimed in with an equally valid point, which was establishing the timeframe to allow for renegotiating the contract. Frankly, I prefer open ended licensing, but to each their own right. Obviously, that exam is much more convoluted than determining how much you may charge for a logo. Personally, my company doesn't just sell logos, we create comprehensive brand languages because a logo has no clear distinct value without a method for delivery. But if I were to sell a logo, I might start by referencing the graphic artists guild handbook on pricing and ethical guidelines. If you're not familiar, they survey a large number of designers and agencies to get a grasp of price ranges for various applications and company sizes. This matters because your design is worth more. Wow, that's a terrible way to put it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
This episode is sponsored in part by Adobe XD, how designers UX. Learn more at adobe.com/XD.
0:10
It's time for another installment of Brand of Brothers. My name is Doug Berger, and I will be your host through this branding journey. In this episode, I'm excited to share with you the latest in brand refreshes, a history lesson, wisdom nuggets, and Josh Smith, also known as Hydro74, stops in to tell us like it is. Let's get branding.
0:28
Brand Updates
0:31
Let's talk about our latest favorite brand refresh New Holland brewing. This one is exceedingly new, so it may not have made it to your neck of the woods just yet. So for those of you who haven't experienced it for yourselves, you can find it on our Instagram feed or on our website brandshowlive.com on a scale of resounding success to epic failure. Was it the good, the bad or the ugly? Well, it did make the favorite brand refresh segment didn't it? So, let's begin with a little backstory, shall we? picture it, Michigan on the shores of Lake macatawa. Very close to Lake Michigan. We're talking the southwest side of the MIT. And, of course, they have a really old windmill. And what is now a bit of a tourist trap called windmill Island gardens. I'm pretty sure the island wasn't even an island to start with, but whatever. So anyhow, Holland, Holland, Michigan, that is, is also home to the tulip time festival. And in case I haven't managed to paint the picture for you just yet. This place is steeped in Dutch heritage Well, in the 90s, Brett Vander camp, or maybe its founder camp started New Holland brewing. So not only did we get another craft beer company at the tail end of the 20th century, because you know, we We needed one of those. We also got that questionably nostalgic, millennia era brewery logo with its kind of grungy hand hewn serif typography and oversized flanking letters stretching beyond the lips, which can't seem to contain the design elements to begin with. Even the windmill panels are busting through it. And how do I even know they're windmill panels, you ask? Well, there's illustrated wind. The anyhow, the rebrand is spectacular. Not because I wasn't a fan of the previous look. It's probably just because I'm a sucker for this kind of design. So Adam Dickerson, their brand manager, he's touting this Dutch word, Gazelle league. I am so sorry. If you speak Dutch, I still don't even know how to properly pronounce a van Gogh. Is it fun golf. Whatever. So gizelle this word supposedly captures the spirit. The brand is meant to convey, right? So it's innovative, it's welcoming. It's resourceful, it's cozy, it's friendly, and relaxing. And Holy shit. It does all of that. Rather than being a background element now, the windmill is brought front and center. It's clean. It's elegant. It's iconic. And it's a really lovely interpretation of the old Diwan windmill. It actually looks better than the real thing. The typography Oh the typography. It has so much personality and character, but it remains sophisticated. They have truly managed to create a classic, timeless yet modern brand language. Let's just say I'm looking forward to seeing if the new brews are as tasty as this refreshing brand refresh. Try saying that three times. fast. Oh yeah, I'm supposed to read it. I give it a rating of all drink to that. And of course, since we are all averse to change, how can it be improved? I don't know. I'm gonna have to get nitpicky here in order to really tear this thing apart. So there is a little bit of weirdness to some of the lettering of the primary logo type some strange nuances that only happened on maybe half the letters, maybe a touch more. And there's some inconsistency in the weights and curves, but perhaps that's what gives it some of the charm that's so endearing. Nonetheless, I clearly enjoy this New Holland brewing brand refresh this new New Holland brand refresh. Either way, I think it will look very good in my refrigerator. Review forms, so is it an oldie but a goodie or something fresh from the typographic oven? Well, the latest Fave is relatively new. If you look back 20 years ago like I do and go holy shit the year 2000 Was 20 years ago. Anyhow, it's Gotham. As far as I'm concerned. This font family is pure royalty. I mean, not only is it quintessential typographic perfection, it has a sordid history full of drama and intrigue. No, seriously. So, first, this typeface was designed by Tobias frary Jones assuming I'm even pronouncing his name correctly.
5:28
It seems to be an affliction of mine. And it was a little collaboration or a colab. If you're hip with the lingo, clearly I'm not because I think it might actually be pronounced collab. What was I saying? Oh, right, with a little collab with Jesse Reagan. If you don't know who these legends are, because at this point, they're friggin legends. It's totally worth looking them up. But Reagan was one of frary Joneses protegees and he created some killer tips. faces including Sentinel and Archer, as well as logo types for Glade and USA TODAY FOR Ray Jones, on the other hand, was one of the founders of heckler frary Jones, which is now half Learning Company. Let's just say things didn't end very well. They settled out of court, yada yada but while Jonathan Butler and Tobias ferry Jones work together, they created amazing logo types, fonts, font families, whatever you want to call them. typefaces for wall street, journal, GQ, countless others, I mean, pentagram hired them one of my favorite design studios that I may have a habit of referencing far too often. So a little backstory on ferry Jones, he's from Brooklyn. He received a BFA from RISD D. Soon after he joined font bureau where among other notables, he created the interstate typeface, so, to say he's a typographic ninja would be an understatement. I swear his fonts just sneak up on you and smack you on the eyeballs. They're, they're amazing. So long story short, frary Jones now has his own workshop and as a professor or instructor or whatever the teacher title is that he has at Yale. You know, that place where Paul Rand taught graphic design. It's pretty famous and probably for other reasons, too, but really, who cares right now? Anyhow, so back to the typeface. According to the font foundries website, Gotham celebrates the attractive and unassuming lettering of the City, New York City that is, which is teeming with such letters handmade sans serif that share a common underlying structure and engineers idea of basic lettering that transcends both the characteristics of their materials, and the mannerisms of their makers. It goes on it goes on it goes on and although designers have lived with them for more than half a century, they remarkably went on revived until the year 2000. The distant future the year 2000, when we introduced Gotham, or in less flowery terms and Wikipedia explains Gotham is a geometric sans serif typeface family. Gotham's letter forms were inspired by examples of architectural signage of the mid 20th century. And because I would never want to disappoint, I have a couple Haiku reviews for you. All right, first one. No nonsense or bane sophistication. Insane. typeface shall remain. Or maybe you want something a little more New York. Strong, smart infection hafler leaves zero convection, taste of perfection. All right now it's fun. I hope you enjoyed it too. Either way. Thanks for tolerating my inane passion for the 575 and of course, you can see the typeface for yourself on our Instagram our website, Rancho live.com, as well as fonts by Heckler and company's website. typography calm.
8:52
Logo history was
8:55
way back in the 1900s before Adobe Illustrator or even the Macintosh or Even before we re appropriated the term branding from ranchers, there were the true pioneers of modern graphic design. Since we talked about Nike. In our last episode, I thought I'd keep the trend going by exploring yet another one of the foremost memorable logos, according to a genuine scientific study reported in a legitimate journal by some fancy sciency people with degrees and stuff. So let's dive into some Appleseed deliciousness. That's right, we're talking about Apple. The history of the Apple logo, like many of the origin stories out of Cupertino is quite enchanting. In case you're unfamiliar, the original Apple logo, which has virtually zero relationship to what you know, and presumably love today was created by Ronald Wayne, who I believe was a co founder of apple. How many co founders did they have? And oh, yeah, notice my hesitation of suggesting it was designed. It was not it was assembled anyway. It was clearly intended to represent the law of gravity and give the name justification. So yeah, it's an engraved illustration of Isaac Newton under a tree. And the oddly framed engraving is wrapped with some terribly rendered an overly saadawi ribbon that's almost medieval in nature. And in the ribbon is some rather questionably rendered serif typeface that reads Apple Computer Co. Thankfully, this so called logo didn't last very long. This version was created in 1976. And in 1977, we are introduced to a much more graphic rendition by Rob jenoff, who worked with Regis McKenna as an art director and was tasked to design the logo for Steve Jobs. At the time it was created, it was definitely a thing of genius. The bite mark definitely helped define it as an apple on a visual level, making it rather unmistakable of other produce. It gets a bit wonky and its cleverness By adding rainbow Lake stripes and I must confess that OCD side of me really hates the fact that they're not in order. But the colored stripes were meant to signify the fact that Apple computers had color. Interestingly enough, each of those rainbow colors are specifically created for Apple, right the apple icon with which you are familiar was accompanied by an outdated logo type, the only red apple and all lowercase o and a fun note about jenoff. He graduated with a degree in Industrial Design, which kind of was a thing back then, to transition from industrial design into graphic design. He then went on to work for a handful of Silicon Valley design agencies as a result of his vast design experience working with notable tech companies in the area. When he landed at Regis McKenna, his creative director tapped him to produce the corporate ID. For apple. Suffice it to say his career has remained on solid footing ever since. But seven years later in 1984, branding powerhouse landor Associates got their hands on the logo. They separated the glyphs from the letter forms and gave the brand new typeface permutations of that typeface will live on for quite some time during the glyphs lifetime. In 1988. Apple experienced a Renaissance and so too did its signature Apple icon bringing the design process entirely in house they turned the rainbow ish logo Mark into a glassy jelly three dimensional trendy mess. And as quickly as that happened, it became a solid flat graphic icon, which is actually what they use today. But, so this was simple, yet powerful. And in 2001, they Chroma FIDE it, but apparently it was too chromia not graphic enough. So they added a sliver of a reflection to disrupt the gradients. I gotta tell you, I really remember liking this back in 2007. And then in 2014 or so, we went back to the one color strikingly solid logo, and taking a cue from Nike, they dropped the logo type all together. It's worth noting The logo marks original basic design structure still remains today. That's pretty fucking impressive to me. So you're probably wondering, Doug, do you even like the Apple logo? This might be a really controversial response. And hopefully it doesn't get me into too much trouble, if any at all. Actually don't.
13:21
It's gotten better over the years. I'll give it that. But when you actually take time to examine it, it's pretty fucked up. The design lacks visual harmony despite the Fibonacci golden rectangle reverse engineering rationale. It's borderline discordant. Fuck math. If it doesn't look good, fix it. I feel the bite is just visually too high in the STEM should be flipped. So the visual weight is balanced, right? Like, why was this ever a thing? How come this was never addressed? Even Newton's third law suggests the logo is wrong. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if the bite is on the right, shouldn't the stem be on the left? But of course the logo is ubiquitous, and we've seen it so often, we have become immune to its questionable design. If we flip the stem, we would all look at it and go, Oh, I guess I see what you're talking about. But it would look so weird to us since we are so used to seeing it executed with such imperfection. I mean, fuck, we've kind of been trained to like bad design. Look, it doesn't deserve an F plus, sorry for the Tenacious D reference. It does deserve a passing grade however, like a good one, maybe a B plus, possibly even an A minus, but only if I've had a couple adult beverages. Let's just say it's no Nike swoosh. And for those keeping score, I'm talking about the refined swoosh not the original original swoosh Oh, shit. This is gonna get me into more trouble than I thought it was, isn't it? Oh, well, moving on. I should answer some questions.
14:51
inquiring minds.
14:55
So we have a few fun questions. The first question is regarding Comic Sans. The second question is regarding picking color. And the third question is regarding brand advice for nonprofit organizations. So let's start with with Comic Sans. So the answer is just no. There are so many better typefaces out there that aren't being used by elementary school teachers, and novice designers, if you can even call them designers. So the answer is just no. So we're not going to give that question much more credence. I distinctly remember leaving a really bad review for a hotel that had a sign in Comic Sans. So then the next question is regarding color selection. So there's a lot of research that's gone into color theory and the psychological impact of color. So when working with a client, what makes sense is to establish what the tone is, right? So to come up with a method for identifying a handful of words that directly correlate to what you're trying to emote, and then when you have that grab bag of words, use existing science leverage existing science. Now obviously, it might be the color blue, but it doesn't have to be royal blue. It can be any shade of blue, so long as it still captures the core essence. Then, advice for nonprofits. Wow. Really, the best advice I can offer is to find a design firm that is willing to partner with you, meaning they're going to basically donate money 95% of their services never ever, ever engage with someone who's just going to give it away for free. There are so many reasons why that is bad business. The key one is value. When someone is giving you a product for free, what is the intrinsic value, you're assigned to something that's free versus something that you're paying for. So that psychological connection is super important. And so as a designer, you know, it's, it's fine to give away something every now and again, but you deserve something in return for a nonprofit organization. When there is a service that you want, you should have some sort of a budget for it. So it makes sense that there would be a partnership it should be symbiotic. So in terms of how a nonprofit organization could benefit from branding advice, that's when you leverage an expert right? You need your air conditioner fixed. You don't hire a plumber. You need your, your elbow fixed. You don't hire an electrician, you go to a doctor, especially one that that that specializes in elbows. So why wouldn't you go to a designer that specializes in providing you the service that you need? And to quote or possibly paraphrase Forrest Gump? That's all I have to say about that. He said a designer, he's an illustrator. He's a typographer. He's a humble philosopher who happens to wield his power through commercial art. Josh Smith has a distinct style that transcends traditional media into the digital realm. His drive and determination are consistent defining factors that are ever present in his creative work partnering with the left Some Nike Lucasfilm Microsoft Xbox EA Sports Burton snowboards Red Bull New York Times Hasbro let me cut to the chase. If you don't actually have something he has designed on one level or another, you've definitely encountered his genius on store shelves or in a video game. Without further ado, let's just jump right in as indicative of your process with your tight sketches. You are clearly a skilled artist. When did you realize you could draw and Do you remember what that moment felt like or how it was transformative?
19:37
I never realized I could draw I mean it was all frickin bullshit. Because when I was in middle school or no I mean elementary I would draw all the time but we're not talking anything good. Jim Davis from the Garfield fame came into our school and I think it was his a scholastic or something like that, but he's, he was talking about Garfield and he drew like the character real quick and the first time I saw someone actually draw something like Just a couple ovals. No So I started practicing Garfield never never was good at it. But I was really good at drawing Garfield with a deck. And in third grade, my friends love that they're like, what is that Garfield? Tell him like it's not detail, detail. But anyway, going back to drawing, but yeah, I never really control very well.
20:21
Even during school it's like
20:24
when I started going to graphic design start building a site. It was just really bad Powerpuff Girls meets anime, and it was really, really crappy. And then I have some friends out with a site and I mean, it wasn't like I just never had that skill level. But when I started working in Illustrator, I could take an object and then maybe I'd like printed off and just kind of like do like a little sketch over the top of it. Just kind of know where the components are like, I'm doing like a lion or a tiger as an example I could put on a table just kind of like okay, Eyes hear noses here. ears are here. And this is kind of a rough how the fur could look. Now the skin I back in, you know, back in the day when scanners was a thing. And I would just give it a try and like illustrator and I would just, it was easy for me to formulate. And over the years, I just got to a point where it became kind of second nature, because it's me kind of massaging. It's how I illustrate is more of a tool of like a 3d artists it's sculpting. It's like I just I just know where certain things go. So working digitally with my mouse, which is really weird. I can sculpt the thing where I need to be and it gives me the ability to figure out all that stuff. But if I'm sit down with a pen and paper, I can do some basic stuff. But it's not anything. Not anything like art worthy by any means.
21:48
When it comes to your drawing skills and your prowess there. You're like, Yeah, not so much.
21:54
But I mean it's been awesome Saturday cuz the thing is, I don't know about you, but you're good at What you do, but there are people above you that you were extremely envious on. And to me, that is the inspiration for me to want to get better. I can't necessarily draw like them, but I can try to get to where maybe the things I do digitally, you know, through clicking through whatever process I do, I can at least get the representation because as a good example, I was looking at a lot of Rick refund stuff back in the day and Jim Phillips, and when I would do my trips out to LA to new clients, they had a couple great bookstores, and then what they're called, but there's this one that was always old school books. And so I found like this old Rick Griffin book, I think they reprinted it so you can get it now. But it was amazing. So when I was looking at his liner, which is all pen and ink. One thing popped my mind is like how can I get my lines not to be so clean? How does the imperfection align where you saw the grip on the paper, even though it was thick and you couldn't see through but it was it was still there's a certain element faction there. And I think that kind of changed the dynamic. I mean, it's kind of dirty there for a little bit. But I realize if you're drawing like a skull as a great example, it's like don't go clean. It's like it needs to have imperfections, it needs to have like, you need to lose some symmetry. It's like, even if it's just adding like a little something on the other side, because nothing's truly that's, that's organic is perfectly symmetrical. I mean, I think that's the fallacy what people do now and illustration work, it's like, those little things kind of add up to beauty. So for a while there, my premise was a imperfection with imperfection. Because imperfection is perfection, yada yada yada, yada. But that was just kind of that was kind of like a grinding gear from early 2000s. into the teens. I guess you could say, My, how I evolved, I guess you could say.
23:45
Okay, cool. So next question. When I look at your work, it's clear there is a deeper artistry to what you do than what's on the surface of the final product. Do you think of yourself more as an illustrator or a designer And how does that impact how you present yourself professionally?
24:05
I don't consider myself either of those to be perfectly honest, I consider myself a business owner. I run a business, I provide a service. And the thing is, I don't like to be labeled as one or the other because that that begins to limit you, doesn't it? It becomes worse like, Oh, he's only this or he's only bad. So what's the best way to explain it? Well, here's, here's a story. I did a portfolio review. I think Parker was there and I love Clark art. And so he's I consider him more of a designer Lee illustrator, but he's really good at what he does. So they're asking him some questions and we don't really heard from the illustrator. He's like, Josh, you have an opinion. I'm like, yeah, I'm not an illustrator. It's like, I have to work through all the paperwork with Hasbro Lucas Films, Dungeons and Dragons, Disney msnbc or CNBC and psych The list goes on and like there's so much better stuff on this. The byproduct of all this work is me actually doing something as illustrated. But the thing is I'm providing a service to it. So does it matter if I do type in my type ographers now and am I limited to that? Or if I'm just doing illustrations and I just limited to that? It's like no, I run my run an agency of one and keep in mind I'm like, really jaded, really all the seven. I rarely ever let that ego side of me out because I hate it. But it was still a whole thing where I was so freakin pissed off because I didn't like to be pigeonholed because it sounds so it sounds sort of submissive, you know, but it's still the whole thing at the end of the day. It's just
25:39
I mean, you can edit the shadow you want to
25:42
move on to the next one. You have a distinctive style, which may be described as digital modernism with its allusions to woodcut engraving or linoleum printmaking, but there's a distinctive craftsmanship you present that is graphically precise. Can you explain that? How your aesthetic evolved into what it is today?
26:03
Well, it, I think it's this because with time and with the knowledge of the software because well okay, I guess the best way to look at it is I think every designer has this system in play. First, you begin and then you're just trying to figure out what you're doing. Then once you have the ability to work, the tools and finally success from be able to work the tools properly, then the next phase becomes chasing. And as you're chasing, you're just basically emulating with your own ingredients, I guess you could say. It's like you're influenced heavily by the people. It's like, I mean, a great recent one would be draplin think about how many hipster artists decide to awesome come like draplin clones, and then they're basically post sounds like look at my work. I'm like, this is a grappling rip off, Dude, come on. It's like at least change it up at least to some different colors. I mean, but it's like but The thing is, we've all been there. I mean, I was a chaser obey and my giant because my giants liner and simplicity was amazing. Obey was a very vektory kind of sort of thing and I had the pleasure of talking to shepherd multiple times. And it's great to because he actually remembers Angel. Yeah, yeah, you're the hydro guy. And finally He's like, hey, Josh, I'm like, Oh, damn, first name basis, this uncle. But once we get past the chase and kind of realize that we are in our own unique voice, then it goes from chasing to seeking and then that depends on where you're seeking. So for me, it's like, I have all these higher artists. And people have higher skill levels from centuries ago, two decades ago, but you know, it's like, I have old books like, you know, a Greg who Ruta. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Gerard Ruta. David quais. Like these people are brilliant on what they did. And I just I like to look at that stuff and try to figure out like, how can sprinkle in just a little bit of that, because they paid their way they made the resources available by their own body of work. And so for me, it's like instead of chasing that, like I'm trying to chase where, in my own mind by trying to point where I can't do this anymore, what Why leave behind and we'll just be like the crappy stuff that was during the Haifa my career, or will be the stuff that was later on. It's like so I'm just, I'm trying to figure I just I'm trying to seek something that has sustainable value, at least for a generation to come. Even if it's only with my kids are very, very small people. There's still some chasing, but it's still it's chasing with the purpose of becoming unique within a cog, I guess. So anyway, I don't have to answer this question. But going back to like all the terms that you said, it's like, honestly, just every step has been me seeing something and trying to figure out how to recreate that. And like what the action stuff I'm not good at like Tracy Chang is frickin brilliant at it. Gregory Titus. He's more, he draws it manually, but he is so good as all the stores Black Series dudes. And then there's like these other guys that are very, I forgot one guy's name, but he's very precise on like, how he does his entry and stuff like that. And there's like these other artists too. So I mean, in a way, it's like, I'm just trying to figure all that stuff. But it's just I see something, I try to do it. And then I do it enough times where it becomes halfway decent. And then by that time, I'm the worst designer because it gets old to me. So I'm onto something new. So anyway, that's just my blah, blah, blah. All right,
29:35
fair enough. burgeoning designers try to basically accomplish two things set themselves apart from the rest and get noticed. No doubt, you've managed to do just that. And I think your origin story of persistence and defiance, play a big part in this. Can you talk to us about that?
29:53
So the persistence has just basically been the idea that I'm fearful about failure and not because of projects being fearful failure, it's more just the ability to not to fail is something I'm so passionate about, which is wanting to design wanting to make wanting to create wanting to have the ability to have people at least enjoy it enough to where I can have bills being paid. Now the defiance part of that is a whole different subsections. So I guess the best way to explain it is that it was one of those things that kind of like dawned on me, because like five or six years ago, I really don't remember. But the one thing in my life because the biggest structure of it that you know, it's talked about occasionally is just basically from five to about, you know, into high school into college, which is a very brutal time for me. There's a lot of stuff that went on during that time. That was just, it was it was horrible. And so I always had that as weird crutch even now Like looking back and I got to a point where it become like this thing where my inner monologue just because of how those few years of my early life dictated me was always whispering exact same things on my step that wizard when you say your affiliate, you're gonna grow up to be nobody that bla bla bla bla bla bla. So that stuff just resonates with you and no matter how much you try to ignore it, that voice is always going to be there. So when a project goes south, that voice comes up if you get hit up for a gig but then you decide to go with like this other designer or other agents and you're kind of like where are you going with them I'm bid was cheaper and I can get this done half the time. Doesn't really matter. But still that whisper kind of comes in or late at night you're watching like some movie and then all sudden there's something that's just said there has no relevance and then that whisper comes again. So Kevin, this mantra being defined by defiance, and it's not defiance towards people, it's defiance against the inner monologue, the past everything that tells you that you are a failure. To read to be defined is knowing that in its darkest moment when you've been beaten to the ground, and you hear the referee, basically counting to 10, and part of you just wants to lay there and give up. That's the moment when you should never give up, you should actually get back up, or stand back up and basically just fight. It's like it's almost like the Phuket rule. Because I haven't learned that a long time ago, there's times when you can't figure something out, you have to say fuck and step away from it. And then just ignore it. Because when you come back out, or come back at with fresh eyes, things change drastically. Or if you're behind on bills, sometimes you'll say fuck it and stop thinking about it, then come back to it with how can I fix this and then eventually you're going to see the path where it goes. So that was the whole concept of defiance is, is to better my own personal self, and to have a reason, even during times when I feel like I have no reason because I'm pretty sure like you It's like we have our weeks where we just felt like shit. And it's like, it's just it's hard to eat have the desire to just do anything or use in from computer for five hours, just like moving around like a couple of things and you know, you have stuff to do, but it's just there's no desire to do it, you know. And those are the moments when I tell myself, it's like, I have to be defiant to that. It's like I need to force my way forward.
33:24
Maybe life with bills, maybe life with kids might be like, whatever it's like.
33:30
It's just a way for me to answer
33:35
the problems and try to figure out a way to solve them. And it's a defiance of just not allowing the problem become the problem, but to actually find a solution and solving. So that's kind of what it kind of represents.
33:46
Dude, that's awesome. So, we've all got stories, both personal and professional, that have shaped who we are like major fuckup moments that teach us an important lesson. And as a self taught, designer, what was or were the biggest professional lesson or lessons you learned that still impact you today.
34:08
And I think everybody enjoys a good like, you know, client horror story, you know, it's like the client was this and that. I think, for me, it was a job. And the thing is, as much as I hate that job, I try not to publicly say too much about it because at the end of the day, it's like, it's just, I don't think it adds any value doesn't add any value to me does add any value to them. And you would clients where I've had bad relationships with I was raised about for a while, but it made me realize one thing is, again, there is no substance there. That's just me being mad for a reason. And it doesn't bring me anything, and it doesn't bring them anything. So it's kind of pointless really. Clients is really weird because no matter like we all have our stories, but I think at the end of the day My particular thing that I enjoy most is when there's misunderstanding and you get to a phase with the client that you kind of like laugh at us like holy shit, I gotta mean for that communication go that way. And when you kind of get past the whole stress of you're not nailing what you need to do to say, okay, we were both like talking about, it's like, we're talking about fruit, but you're proposing the bananas and you're showing me the urn, I was showing you the apples, you know, it's like, I just, it wasn't really sinking. So those are the ones I actually really like, I had many of those with Nike, because it's kind of hard when you work long distance between things. And, you know, they'll show like their style guides and all that, but sometimes you're just like, okay, so where do I fit into the equation?
35:47
Totally. So what is the most satisfying part of what you do like from client approval to seeing your stuff on store shelves, what aspects of your career make you want to celebrate?
35:59
Oh, see? That's the thing where I
36:03
that question is a funny one just because I think my favorite part of the day and maybe it's just because of the way this year has been, I've been definitely enjoying the study of bourbon and scotch. So I'm pretty sure during this whole thing you probably probably wonder so I'm probably I'm a weird conundrum. Like, I'm all over the map, but I think the basicness of me is like, I'm just, I'm just passionate about what I do. I don't really get that excited when I see in stores. I mean, if I do I buy it. Just because I'm kind of like, a this is mine. And I think my kids actually find it more rewarding. I'm happy they can wake up in the morning, you know, have a coffee, have a cigarette, or to just kind of like chill out, relax, get inspired, come and do something. They do it then go and get another cup of coffee, look at my emails or something need to revision hecate on it, you know, it's like, I get enthusiastic about the stupid shit. Because I and I'm not. I'm not a business owner owner. I just treat it as a business, you know?
36:58
Sure. I totally AM. Stand. You know, I really appreciate you coming by. Do you have any parting words for us?
37:11
crickets
37:15
there's something like
37:19
I mean parting words. Okay, so
37:23
I guess it just kind of depends on the audience really, but I guess the parting words would be
37:30
it's just
37:32
if you're passionate about doing something, just do it with all your might. Okay, any parting words?
37:41
Don't jerk off after cutting jalapenos.
37:47
You know, I'm going to keep that right.
37:50
Trust me, it's happened.
37:52
So we are your parting words. Always wash your hands after cutting jalapenos.
38:01
Yes.
38:05
Good stuff. So if you're interested in learning more about Josh Smith, go visit his website hydro 74 calm. That's Dr. O seven four.com. He's even got some cool swag on there. And there's some limited edition prints to go check it out. Now it's time to talk about something that may or may not have happened in my decades long career and Well, what I learned from it. So we've talked about toxic clients collaboration, what more is there to discuss, right? Oh, I know. How about this one? How much does it cost? You know how much for a logo let's say. Sometimes tire kickers can turn into the best clients. And man if I had a nickel for every time I was asked that question How much for a logo? Well, I'd have a lot of nickels. I actually helped someone not long ago. Over on the Facebook, her question was a bit on the complicated side and had nothing to do with pricing a logo in particular Instead, it was about so she's licensing t shirt designs to a National Park, which is pretty cool. He asked me well, her desire was to establish a flat royalty percentage, but that creates a significant set of complications, especially without a pro forma or some kind of manner to establish projected units sold. In her case, I suggested she established a flat rate based on the assumption she creates a design that never yields any purchases, because her work still has value even if the distributor fails to successfully reach the appropriate target audiences. After all, why should she be penalized for their inability to exercise they're part of the process. But then, if the design is inordinately successful, why shouldn't she be appropriately compensated? I began by helping her come up with a simple formula, which like the shirts that are being sold in this case, There's no one size fits all approach. Either way, the big idea was to define a handful of terms. First, what is the initial value of the design? This is dependent upon a number of variables that are both qualitative and quantitative. Since that my newsha can get boring really quickly, we're just going to skip ahead. So we're gonna just assume that the design has a random value of $1,000. Again, this is a random number, don't get caught up on that. So then we have to determine what the terms net or gross sales means. This is critical for the purpose of the contract. I originally suggested, she charged a percentage of gross sales. However, she opted for net sales, which in my opinion, opens a much larger can of worms. I helped her define net in this context as a result, because what is net So essentially, it's the cost of the actual textile, the shirt in this instance The amortized cost of the silkscreen process itself. So basically you're taking the cost of setting up the screens and then actually applying the ink to the substrate and dividing that by the number of shirts that are being made at that point in time based on that cost. And then any discounts, all subtracted from the retail price. So if you don't define this in the contract net might remain at zero until the client recoups all their costs, including the flat fee for the design or designs. Well, she felt that the most fair way to approach this was to ask for 8% net. Another commenter chimed in with an equally valid point, which was establishing the timeframe to allow for renegotiating the contract. Frankly, I prefer open ended licensing, but to each their own right. Obviously, that exam is much more convoluted than determining how much you may charge for a logo. Personally, my company doesn't just sell logos, we create comprehensive brand languages because a logo has no clear distinct value without a method for delivery. But if I were to sell a logo, I might start by referencing the graphic artists guild handbook on pricing and ethical guidelines. If you're not familiar, they survey a large number of designers and agencies to get a grasp of price ranges for various applications and company sizes. This matters because your design is worth more. Wow, that's a terrible way to put it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
