From the Vault: Gavin Knox-Grant

Enjoy yet another installment of Brand of Brothers! Join your host, Doug Berger, as he interviews Gavin Knox-Grant.

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Doug Berger: 0:00

Brand of Brothers is coming back next year. In the meantime, here's an interview from the vault recorded back in January of 2021. Please welcome musician turned creative director and former Sotheby's International Chief Brand Officer, Gavin Knox-Grant. 

I'm going to do that thing that, uh, that every interview starts with, Yeah, thanks

Gavin: 0:30

for having me. Very, very privileged and honored

Doug Berger: 0:34

to be here. Well, it's definitely a mutual feeling. So, let's dive in. Our first question is, uh, it's less of a question and more of a statement that I'd love for you to respond to. Um, so, much like many designers, be it writing, music, or what have you, you have a multidisciplinary background. Talk to me about the discovery of your passion for design and how you reconciled your love of music composition.

Gavin: 1:06

Yeah. So, I mean, I'll, I'll, a lot of these, I'll try and make this as concise as possible, given the fact that we have limited time, I, I, I'm not good at, at a lot of things. I mean, there's, I'm kind of, I've got an aptitude for two things essentially, and that is music and call it art for the very loosely aesthetics, So, so in school, I pretty much. just failed everything except for music and art. Um, I, I started playing the trumpet at a very young age and I was working professionally from the age of about 15. And it was a given that I was going to become a professional musician. Um, and I went to go and I did a jazz degree at University of Cape Town, um, to become a jazz trumpet player, which I subsequently did. And what happened was We always, when you're younger, you have these preconceived ideas of, you know, I'm going to be this and, and I've seen the movie of my life and it's going to look like that and feel like that to be this glamorous thing. And of course the lifestyle and what it is to be that person in that life doesn't always necessarily line up and certainly didn't in that case. You know, I, I was very much a full time musician. For a long time and the lifestyle and the, the not, not being in control of your finances, essentially, unless you are in the 001%. If you're a working everyday musician, you're essentially waiting for the calls. Um, and, and I was looking for something else. I got frustrated. I think I was in an original band out of full out with the guy. And, and at the time, and it's really interesting because I've never really considered design. I didn't actually know what design was. Um, I thought it was, you know, maybe logos or it's these people that, that do kind of posters. I didn't really, I didn't really know. And we were, I was a huge, almost, I would say, a disciple of U2 at the time. And I remember thinking the power of the band had more, had almost more to do with the brand, which I didn't know what it was then. But that's essentially what it is now. If you took away Especially at the period of time that this was this was the early 90s. If you took away just acting baby and zero per and you took away the Bono alter ego of the fly and you took away the this whole concept and this whole world that they created around you just have the music no name no people no. I remember thinking it just had much less power and the final straw was I was part of the rigging crew on a Michael Jackson concert when he came to Cape Town and we were invited to the show and I remember seeing him on stage thinking but People are so far away that may not be him. There are Michael Jackson impersonators that are better than him. And they don't know that it's him, but they've spent a fortune and they screaming at the myth and the hype and this mythical, it was just magic to me that the idea that you could create. Perceived value, which is essentially what it ends up becoming, right? I then, uh, through a friend of my mother's and various different things, I just, uh, I met a design lecturer. We had a conversation and literally the next day I signed up for design school, um, and spent the next three years, probably the most life changing three years of my life learning about what, what design is and what brand is and how brands are built, um, And how perceived value is created. And, and that is, um, that's been a hugely profound thing for me. And it ties in perfectly to music design does, because you think if you take fundamental elements like dynamics, contrast, color, key style, they're all exactly the same, whether it's, in any of the arts, any, any time that you're communicating emotionally, whether it's painting or writing or design or scoring for a film, which is very much design. There's a brief, you've got a client. It's literally the same thing. Um, so, so I don't, I don't necessarily consider myself not a musician and not a design. It's all blurred. It all kind of somehow finds its way. Yeah. Into whatever it is that I'm doing, you know? Well, it's part of the artistry, right? You're,

Doug Berger: 5:48

whether you are creating something that is an auditory symphony or a visual symphony, it's still right. That brought together and you're, and you're seeking harmony. So yeah, I mean

Gavin: 6:00

the, the, the, the difference, the difference then with design, where it becomes really interesting to me, where the head part comes in is as soon as it becomes a design. Design means you've got a client in a brief. Which ultimately changes everything. That's where the, obviously the commercial art aspect comes in. You know, if you are doing a film score, the director's going to tell you what he wants and ultimately it's ultimately it's, it's his film you've, so you've got a problem that you need to solve, which is all design is really, and you are using tricks that have been used through however long we've been alive back from hieroglyphics. Um, of how to communicate unconscious subconscious feelings and things. Um, and you're using these things we've learned, such as color, contrast, composition, to communicate, in many cases, so, buy my product, as opposed to, this is how I feel about this person, you know? And, you know,

Doug Berger: 7:03

and talking about things academically, I think, is a great segue into the practical application. So, not long after you completed your schooling, you took a path that Led you far, rather far from home, if I'm not mistaken. What was that journey like for you?

Gavin: 7:22

Yeah. You know, being, being stuck in, in South Africa, we, South Africans are generally speaking, fairly globally savvy. We, we pretty aware of what's happening kind of around the world and. And we are, for the most part, well traveled, but, but we well traveled because we, we get, we realize how at the bottom of Africa we are and how disconnected we are, so we go and find out generally. It's a very common thing at that time, and I'd never seen snow before, as an example, and that was just something that had to change. I went to go and work in a ski resort, and I lived in New York for a bit, and I then moved to London and worked, you know, doing freelance design jobs as I was going, and playing music in various places. I had a kind of, I was gigging at a coffee shop in San Francisco for a while, and it, it was a, um, you A year filled with a year filled with Bruce Springsteen and Jack Kerouac. That's kind of, and, and it was wonderful because certainly from, from, uh, I'd been to the UK before, um, but from the U S it was an amazing eye opener because I, I think that people haven't, that haven't been to the U S don't realize that it's to me anyway, it's five countries in one and it's got nothing to do with necessarily how geographically large it is, but culturally how massive it is. And because we in this country, certainly the English speaking, um, South Africans grew up on Hollywood and American TV. And so our frame of reference is very much, um, you know, the same, the same kinds of things that, that, that Americans grew up on. So, so performing there, all my references and all the, all the things that I was writing about, they were all very, um, well worn roads, uh, parts rather by American listeners. Um, and it felt the U. S. Feels a lot like a like a glove. Certain parts. It feels like a lot of it feels like home. Um, but then it was great to go to Europe and to see a different kind of aspect. And I think that in terms of bringing it into the relevance for the for the interview, it's about cultural context, you know, and you realize that as much as you may travel and as much as you can see the world, there are certain things where we're all the same. Um, certainly in the Western world. Um, I had a, I had a call earlier where we were discussing about how far reaching would I be able to work as a design consultant? And I think West is kind of, Western world pretty much, you know, when you start going to China and red traffic lights mean go, that's where things start kind of getting a little tricky because red has got so, so many strong meanings in the West of it. danger, essentially, and don't go. That, that you don't know how deep that, you don't know how deep it goes, um, with the idea that red being a good thing and reading it. So, but in that context, yeah, learning about culture and learning about how people are generally the global village, you know, culturally really has just been Over the past 30 years, it's just become such a, we just not connect, disconnected anymore. And I think traveling really opened that up for me. Sure.

Doug Berger: 10:54

And, and so at speaking of growth, um, as you've grown in your profession, so to have your opinions matured about branding. I think that we can all make that assumption, right? What are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned? And have you seen any of your design philosophies shift?

Gavin: 11:19

Yeah, I think, you know, one of the, one of the main things I learned was to broaden your, broaden my perspective at the time that you are there to solve a design problem. A lot of the time you'll come into clients, they don't actually know what their problem is. In fact, that happens most of the time. And they'll say, well, we want a website. And the role for me of the designer is to dig down and to find out what they really need. And it's just, well, why do you want a website? Because everyone's got a website. Yeah. That's not a good enough reason. Let's dig deeper. Why do, well, we want to sell more product. Okay. You want to sell more. You don't want a website. You want to sell more. That's different. The website may be the way of doing that. But it also may not be the way that also decides what kind of website it is. Otherwise, you would have just gone and put a WordPress sort of brochure full page website. And those are the important questions. And, and I think a lot of the time, what I've learned is that people try and solve business problems with marketing and branding, and they try and solve branding problems or marketing problems with business. And they don't necessarily know where they, where the overlap happens. So invariably what will happen is a lot of the time you'll go into a meeting or briefing session and you'll end up saying that is a business problem and that needs to be sorted out at a board level before we even begin this conversation because you're going to spend X amount of money. and it's going to achieve you nothing. It actually will be guaranteed wasted because it's not, you're not solving the right problem. In fact, it's, you don't even know what the problem is until you solve the right

Doug Berger: 13:04

problem. And at what stage in your career, do you think you had that realization? I just don't, I know when I went to art school, that's not something that, that they taught us. Right. And I have, yeah,

Gavin: 13:24

I was lucky. It happened fairly early on because I didn't stay in agencies long. I, and it was just purely because I, I happened. To see an invoice on the desk of work that I'd done and I compared it to my salary and I left And I realized that actually what what this business is about is learning how to sell it's got it's yeah, so So as a result, I I from from a long From about two years in I was I was, I was pretty much an entrepreneur running my own business and solving clients problems. And for me, it's very much about if you've got X amount of money and you're investing it, it's my responsibility to ensure that you get a return. Otherwise, how am I going to get another client? Because I have to have your testimonial. I've never advertised and over 22 years, um, all of my work has been referral. And, and, and that's where, you know, you literally have to come in there and say, right, you're going to spend that amount of money on, on this logo in this category. It's nothing wrong with your logo because it's business to business, or they don't even see your logo. That's not where you should be spending your money. Who told you that? You know, like your wife doesn't like your logo. That's cool. She doesn't have to look at it. Like, it's not going to be give you a meaningful return on investment, you know, or my husband doesn't like the color of the interiors of our office and it's like, well, is he a client of yours? And does his business matter? Because otherwise I don't care. I care about what your market responds to. And what's going to make you money. And that, that, that I learned because I had to take accountability for the money that they were giving me.

Doug Berger: 15:20

And did you ever find, and along the way, did you ever find that your philosophies shifted? Like there was one belief that you were dead set on, which of course is very commonplace for someone in their early twenties. And then as they get older, they realize, That's not the best. I mean,

Gavin: 15:40

as you would have, and I'm sure this happens to every designer, you know, you come out of design school and you've got very idealistic ideas about beautiful design, how design can change the world. And sometimes ugly design is what's right for the job. Um, that's the one thing that's, that was definitely a paradigm shift because everyone wants to make things, you know, slick and the bodega on the corner shouldn't look like Apple. And like the classified section of it. So there's reasons why certain things are designed. To be aesthetically jarring. If you like, I mean, if you look at the Batman, I don't know, condiment, which one, the more recent one, that Batmobile is ugly and it's intentional and it's, it's, it's so ugly. It's beautiful because it works. It's all about what works. And I think, you know, designers want to be artists and you're not, you're not an artist, you're a problem solver that uses autistic tricks to solve a financial business problem. And that's what most certainly young designers don't get. That's the one thing. The other thing is work for budget. And this is something I still struggle with. And my strategy and the way around it has changed over the years. Um, but if someone's only got, you know, whatever it might be 200, let's say for a logo, you've got two choices. You either turn it down or you give them the 200 logo. Now, when you're a student and you're starting out, You kind of want to do the work and you don't have the experience and you think, well, I'll take it on, but you get to the point where you can't take on that kind of work because if I don't have something that I can show in a portfolio at value, if you don't recognize the value, we're just not a good fit. Um, and that's another thing that a lot of people will that road and I understand from a business perspective. Don't turn work down for I can't do that. The downside of that is scalability. You know, I'm never going to be a huge agency that just takes on all work and does all things. Um, and I don't want to be because I think a lot of the time those huge things to every, you know, to a hammer, every problem is a nail. And so a lot of these agencies, they'll want a website. Cool. Give you a website. I want to give you a return on investment. It might have nothing to do with the website. And, and so, so I turned down work that I know I'm not going to, that's, that's either I feel I'm, um, there's no value in it either for me or for them, you know? Well,

Doug Berger: 18:35

I mean, there are, there are natural fits that you should be able to pretty much assess and be able to look at. with great immediacy and know whether or not it is mutually beneficial, which is really what it's all about, right? It's not just, can I solve your problem? It's, is this going to help me help you and vice versa?

Gavin: 19:00

Yeah. And I, the person that should solve your problem, right? You know, there are other people that would be better suited and that's, that's the other thing. I mean, the areas of design or where, where I have very limited experience. I mean, let's take toy packaging. If I got a briefing to do a new range of kids, toy packaging, I would need a heck of a lot of research to feel confident because I've never worked in that space. And if it was a time pressured thing, I would buy someone in who had a lot of experience to, to make, to, who understood the design cues and to get it right. So yeah, I mean, there are times where you're not the right, you're not the right person. And I think the goal is where you are the right person to solve the problem. The value will be met on both sides. Completely.

Doug Berger: 19:47

So I'm going to kind of, uh, migrate us into a, a slightly different avenue, which is. about process. And that's one thing I really enjoy exploring is process.

Gavin: 20:00

Yeah.

Doug Berger: 20:00

So we all have different approaches that we take to make it to the finish line. Let's say you're working on a comprehensive branding package. There's a logo, a design system, the whole deal, right? Can you talk to us about how you approach a design project like that, and how you see it through to the end?

Gavin: 20:17

Yeah. And I think this is, um, this again is something that I, you don't get taught enough the business side of it. And the things that I've learned process wise are not taught enough in design schools. Um, the first thing that I, I, I urgently stress people and certainly for me to spend the most time on, and that is understanding the market. Almost every single, um, instance of any design that has gone wrong. Assuming the assuming that, um, you know, I'm not talking like an architectural thing where stairs that go nowhere. I mean, assuming that that that the numbers added up and that's that's the you know, the solution makes sense. If those things failed. It is almost always a result of not understanding the user. The person didn't buy it or didn't use it. Simply because you didn't understand what would make them buyable user. Um, one of my favorite quotes that I sort of live by is that Abraham, I think it's Abraham Lincoln, where he says, um, if I had six hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first four sharpening the ax, I think that's, that's the quote and for me, preparation, preparation is everything. You know, if you, if you take the orange telecom logo, I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's Europe, it's, you know, Just the orange square. I do. It's one of the examples I use in talks that I give and I say, Well, how much did that cost? How long did that take? And invariably, you know, that's could take five seconds, you know, I wouldn't pay anything for it because my daughter could do it. And I then ask, Well, it took two years because how do you know it has to be an orange square with Helvetica bold orange at the bottom with lowercase? Oh, where does that information come from? And so I think from a process perspective, the first thing I do is understand what is this thing that you are trying to sell this product or service and what problem are you trying to solve? Who's, who's problem? And let's really understand and going to detail. I mean, get it down to the actual person. How old is this person? I want to see this person. It must, I actually need to believe that I can have a conversation with this actual person. And if you get it down to one person and you widen it down to the next and wind it down until you know that that's a 70 percent hit, that's a 50%. So that you, so that you know that you're making informed design decisions, you know, and once you, once you really understand that person, it's, you then have really got, you then just do the research and you've got all the design cues against which to measure, um, the right decisions. But this is where it gets important is the involvement of the client. Let's take a logo because this is an easy one and it's one that everyone deals with. I mean, it's an obvious one that someone designed as a train to do and people need a logo. I've never understood why designers give clients options. It, it makes no sense to me. Why on earth are you giving a client six logos? They're not qualified to choose. Like they, they got a designer to design the logo. If you, if you give them the option, it implies that it's about aesthetics and taste, which it isn't. That's, that's decoration. That's getting an interior designer who's going to tell you, well, do you want that's your home for your home thing? Do you prefer a yellow couch there or a red, whatever that that's cool. But this is your business. And you hire a designer so that you're so that you're going to make money. You hire someone who's experienced and he will tell you having said that, and this is key. It's not just walking in. There's your logo. Thanks. It's including the clients in the process right from the beginning. And this is what people don't get right. I think a lot of the time you've got to first set up the criteria against which a logo must be met. The successful, their successful logo can be measured. Number one, how do you know that? That that's going that that when we've arrived there, how do you know we've arrived there? And there are very specific criteria. So there'd be the basics of good logo design sort of memorability. It needs to reduce well, if you want to, if it's going to fit on the side of the pen, It's got to, um, it's got to fit in the, in the industry or the business category. You know, if it's, if it's in finance, it can't look like a candy store. Um, and you, once you get them to agree on the criteria, you then move and you show them, right. You, you then go and show them 50 or 60 logos in that business category. And you say, right, let's look at the design cues. What's working and what isn't? What is successful and what isn't? And we know that in this category, 90 percent of the colors are green. Maybe a burgundy here and there. So sure, you can go shocking pink, but it's immediately not going to look like it's in that category. By the time you get to the end, they love it because they've been part of the process. And psychologically you've ticked every box along the way they feel included and they feel like they solved the problem with you because you shared the process with them. It's such a, um, Here's your here, your six logos like, uh, so for me, yeah, client inclusion is, is key. Being able to explain why you've made every decision that you have and be able to challenge them. Because if you, if they say, well, I don't like that, I'd rather have this. Then you say, cool. Why? Justified. If you can justify it and match it up with the criteria that we've set up. Awesome. I'm all for you. I mean, we can, we can go in that direction, but invariably they can't. That's why we didn't go there. That was ruled out like two weeks ago. So we, you've agreed already that we passed that. You know, that for me, I spend a lot of time. Oh, and the, and the final thing is it's got to, it ultimately has to feel right. You know, again, it's a, I just, I remember, I love quotes. Um, Back, back, minster Fuller. He's got a quote and it's something about, um, if at the end, it's all about the function first. It's all about solving the problem, but if in the end it isn't beautiful, he knows he's done something wrong. Now for me, it's not necessarily the aesthetics. If the people in, if the clients. If it doesn't feel right for the clients when you've gone through that process, then we've missed something. You didn't understand them. You didn't understand their needs properly because it's, it's almost like a psychologist in a sense. It's difficult to get them to articulate their needs as well. They understand their industry. You don't, you have to get Into their heads and they aren't always able to articulate that well. So you've got to spend as much time doing that as you do with clients so that the final result, they go, wow, I really liked that. And it makes sense because when somebody asks them, why did you go with that logo? They want a story to tell. They need, they need to justify it for themselves, you know, so they go, well, it means this and this and that, like, it's all part of the game. You know?

Doug Berger: 27:57

Well, so your approach, your approach, your process is, is very much like mine. And I can tell you that it has backfired for me. And I'm curious to know for you, um, about some, uh, professional experiences that you've had. So let's start with the, uh, I really fucked that one up moment. Um, so what, what happened? And then of course, uh, What would you do if you have the chance to do it all over again? But because I don't want to end on a negative note there I'd love to know what you felt was your most critical success. So can you share those stories with us?

Gavin: 28:42

Yeah, um, you know sure we all have those we all have those moments where You just read it wrong. And it really, it does, it becomes a fuck up whether it's financial or, or otherwise, or you lose a client or you, um, I suppose I've been, I've been screwed over by clients, multinationals and lost money and not have the financial muscle to kind of bother going to court. But in terms of where it was my fuck up, I didn't, I didn't, um, in terms of exactly what we've just been speaking about, I didn't vet the client accurately enough. Or, um, I didn't, I wasn't, uh, firm enough about my criteria and my rules as to, as to an equal partnership in the process. You know, as soon as a client goes, well, you work for me, we know, no, we need each other and great work only happens with a great client relationship. It just doesn't happen any other way. So, um, there was, yeah, there was a, there was a time where. It was for a, um, recruiting, recruiting company. And we did all the work and we, we really cracked a phenomenal concept. And, um, I was really excited about developing it, getting it forward. And because they were precious and it was their company, they developed it. And they probably developed the logos themselves after four weeks in or six weeks in, they just said, no, we, we don't like, we're going to revert back to this thing, not just that's where legally I should have, I should have had in which I now do, uh, clauses and things where should that happen? It's. Thanks very much. It's been interesting and take care. And it cost both parties, um, money and time and efforts because I essentially fired the client. Um, I through various network connections and friends and favors and various things handed over the remaining work, but it left a, yeah, it was a horrible feeling and it was. It was a, it was a question of bad expectation mismanagement. Or, or expectation mismanagement on my part. And I've learned, I've learned that the hard way. I'm very, very specific now, and I'd rather lose the client upfront than risk reputation damage.

Doug Berger: 31:29

And how would you, how would you remedy that today? So how do, what do you do to prevent that from happening today?

Gavin: 31:37

I explain it and and explain the process and and the and and the points at which either party can say this isn't working or where where things from experience have gone wrong and can go wrong. And I'm just make it very, very clear and not in a not in a obnoxious, you know, my way with the highway kind of approach, but more it's it's a partnership and There are things that you that that I know that I'm going to bring in the things that you know that you're going to bring and let's define our lanes. and work together. Um, and if you come in my lane, that's fine, but realize it's my lane, right? And the same thing, you know, if you invite me to your, and that's fine. And it's your lane and let's just get to the end together, understanding, understanding the rules. But the problem is that when, when clients think that treat designers as if, or branding experts, as if they are cleaning floors for them or making them breakfast, There's a problem and it builds a lot of resentment and the industry gets a bad name and you know, it's just it's yeah There have been some horror stories. Sure. Well other things as well In my early days, I got a phone number wrong on when when we still did a lot of very expensive letterheads And I sent a job to print that cost me an absolute fortune because I obviously had to pay for the mistake, which, but anyway, I don't really send much to print anymore.

Doug Berger: 33:14

Yeah. We, we can share horror stories offline. And

Gavin: 33:18

a success story, I guess, evidence that, that my process works. Um, there was a client, a large multinational that had gone through over two years, three of the biggest agencies. Um, out there and kept firing the agency and couldn't decide that they needed an identity done. And, and it was, the problem was that it was too many cooks in the kitchen and too many decision makers. And so again, it was a criteria issue because it then comes down to opinion. And it's, and it's that whole issue of it's got nothing to do with it. I like it or whether you like it, it's about what's right. And we went in there and, um, yeah, we solved the problem and, and delivered a really nice mark, which still stands today. And, um, it was nice to out pitch. and just prove that, that, that the process, look, it could be a number of different factors. It's hard to pinpoint to that specific thing. It could be a personality thing. It could be a number of different things. But for me, it was very much about the process. It was very much about get opinions out of the room. This is, it's not, it's, it's get the criteria agreed upon because design is just answering, solving a problem, define the problem correctly and accurately, and then take opinions out of it. You've either solved it or you haven't. And it's black and white before you begin. And that was a, that was cool because that's, that, that, that philosophy is, has taken me far and it's worked well. And it's given me a lot of confidence. I think that's really what that did for me. It's more, it's more confidence going into, you know, a boardroom and really being able to know what, have, just know that you know your stuff and that this works.

Doug Berger: 35:21

And speaking of confidence. Yeah. Um, well, we know that, uh, you were a musician for, for a while and, and obviously that, that takes quite a bit of confidence to get on the stage, but when you're not designing, when you're not, Practicing your craft. What are your hobbies? Do you still play music? Do you paint? We're gonna have to retake that Excuse me, my gosh We'll try that again. So when you're not designing, what are your hobbies? Do you still play music? Do you paint? I know you mentioned, um, that, that you, you have these blue collar tendencies. How do you channel your creative energies and get recharged?

Gavin: 36:11

Yeah, you know, one of my biggest problems is that I want to be good at anything I'm interested in. So it's a problem because a lot of the times I can't just do something for the fun of it and just for play. So for example, I started windsurfing as a kid and I had to then become an instructor because that's just, I don't, it's a, it's just one of those things. And I'm doing Krav Maga at the moment, and I just want to then become a black belt. And I, I, so I do a lot of, I do a lot of things. I love illustration. Um, but then I still think, well, it has to be good because then what if I want to do concept art for a film? I mean, it's ridiculous. I'm never going to go and work as a concept artist for a film. It's just, it's not, but in my head, I have this thing where, right, I'm not going to sit down and do the courses from, you know, art center in Pasadena. And I'm going to like, it's ridiculous. Um, but, but, but I, you know, I got on these roads, I've got a fully equipped workshop in my house. And I fixed the house from welding to. You know, all the woodwork and I want to get into, you know, I'm going to be making furniture with that kind of stuff. Um, just, and then of course music, music's always been a part of my life. I play guitar, piano, trumpet. I've got a studio at home. Um, and at the moment I'm just more focused on career direction at the moment and where I want to take my career, but I'll get back to you. I'll get back to that because I'm, it's nice to not have music as a job and I'm trying to. Trumpet playing in particular doing corporate work and session work really became a job. And I just had to not have that anymore for a while. So I've kind of, um, that's on the back burner. So the studio is sitting there and it's, I've got using it as storage at the moment and I'll unpack it. So they're going in cycles, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of stuff happening.

Doug Berger: 38:14

I have a recommendation for making it. So it's not a storage unit. Just move your, uh, your zoom calls into the recording studio and you'll be like, okay, I have to change the background.

Gavin: 38:29

One of my good friends is the, is the top mastering engineer in the country. And we spent so much time flattening that room and we built all the acoustic panels ourselves, of course. And we, and it's a, it's an amazing room. I mean, it's just. And, uh, but yeah, absolutely. That's, I mean, certainly from a voice recording perspective, I've got all the gear. I can edit it myself. It's yeah. Sure. That's the problem. So your hobbies become, it's hard for me to do things where my brain doesn't think, is there a way to monetize this and, and I need to be better. I guess I just end up watching series, you know, and then I feel like I'm wasting my time and I should be working.

Doug Berger: 39:11

Well, you know, if you feel like you're wasting your time, then just pick up a book. You'll feel like you're actually nurturing your brain a little bit more. Right, exactly. I must say, I really appreciate you sharing your time with us. Um, might you have any words of wisdom you care to impart before you go? Yeah,

Gavin: 39:30

uh, yeah, I mean I think when I lecture at design colleges, not, I'd say for the younger kind of creatives out there, people are very, um, quick to jump onto a defined, whatever the kind of job or career titled at the moment might be. Right. And I try and explain to them when I was a student, like none of that shit existed. You know, we didn't even have, we didn't even have the iPod yet. Nevermind the phone. So like you want to be an app developer in 10 years time apps may write themselves. We don't know the idea is rather to become a designer and become a critical thinker. Um, because if you learn critical thinking skills and design thinking skills, you are regardless of where your career ends up, whether you move into 3D modeling or photography. or strategy, um, keep it about the thinking rather than learning software. And, you know, you can pay propeller heads to work software. There's new software that comes out every, you know, there's software that comes out every day and you're never going to keep up with it. And you're just going to feel behind as you get older, you feel you suddenly feel like, Oh my God, I don't, I, you know, I've now got to learn like envision studios so that I can, No, you really don't. You have to understand what happens to a person when they land on a website like that's what you have to understand and understand people in this game anyway that and look at other designs. I mean, if we're talking specifically designers, look at design all around you look so that you can see just look at, you know, I'm looking at this pen at the moment and I'm looking at these tiny little lines here. And I'm like, that's an interesting detail. I wonder why they put those there. Is there a need? Is it aesthetics? Is it, if it's aesthetics, what was the choice, you know, I just spent my life doing this shit, whether it's shoes or whether it's a kettle or whether it's a logo, look at stuff and think about it. Um, As opposed to just looking at what are the design trends for 2021, and let's create a poster that looks cool.

Doug Berger: 41:53

And I gotta say, your insights, they're not just applicable to designers. I think that they're ubiquitous. They're universal. They apply to anybody. Open your eyes. See what the world is offering you, and presenting to you, and use that as an opportunity to understand. Your world and to craft your worldview and shape how you perceive absolutely, and Then the other aspect is to use your brain be multifaceted It's pretty clear that if you are open to What is around you and you think the world I hate to use this term trite, uh, euphemism, but, you know, the world is your oyster. And, uh, it truly is. When, when you open your eyes and you open your mind, anything becomes possible.

Gavin: 43:02

Right. And, and, and it's, it's, it's again, it's about, it's about your perspective and you have a unique perspective on things. And, and, and it's important that, that you, that you understand what your unique perspective is and how that solves unique problems. Because otherwise, if you don't do it, no one else can do it. They'll do it in their way. And I think people don't, don't do that enough. You know, we can look at the same thing and see, see very different things in the same thing. And, and it's, it's about self discovery. I think that is a, as any kind of designer or creative problem solver, self discovery is key because. You've got to do kind of who you are. If that makes sense. They asked a ballerina once, I can't remember who she was, but they asked, why do you dance? And she said, it's what I do with who I am. And, and that for me is key. You, the self discovery aspect of this whole business is absolutely critical, um, because that's the only place you will find the uniqueness is in what is interesting about it to you. Not because somebody else said, go look at that. And that's interesting. Maybe it's not interesting to you. And that's cool that in itself is valuable, you know, just because somebody else said that app design is interesting. Doesn't mean you must jump on the app bandwagon. Maybe you hate it. Maybe you think it sucks. And that's valuable. Like almost, it can almost be more valuable knowing what you don't like. And there's certainly more of it around, you know,

Doug Berger: 44:38

well, this has been awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it again.

Gavin: 44:42

No, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm the, the honored one and uh, it's been great, it's been

Doug Berger: 44:49

truly great. And if people want to learn more about you, where can they go?

Gavin: 44:54

Yeah. I mean the, the, uh, the whole, my whole career at the moment is, is in flux, but, but the company at the moment is, is Carbon Media. So K A R B O N media, M E D I A. co. za. Um, they can, they can mail, there's the link and the details and all that there. And then, um, obviously just on LinkedIn, I'm certainly more active on LinkedIn now than, than anywhere else. And, uh, the company kind of page at the moment is, I've been planning a redesign for a long time, but, but I'm still formulating where it's going. And so it's a little bit of a treading water thing. And it's a little bit of a me too kind of thing at the moment. There isn't really. This is one of those things where I'm not at the moment with, with that walking the talk specifically. It's very much, there's the work we've done and, and it's literally a place that clients who look for referrals, they say client, it's not, it's not like people are going to Google and find it. And it was never designed for that. It's literally like, like, he's the guy you should use. Go and look at his site and they end up there, you know, but I'm moving more into doing, doing online courses and public speaking, um, and more of an education space, um,

Doug Berger: 46:16

right on. So will, are you going to have a, uh, uh, an explicit, um, Gavin Knox grant?

Gavin: 46:28

Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually, I mean, that's, it's pretty much by, I mean, I'm probably going to be launching the first, um, my first online core course, even, even as early as two weeks. Okay.

Doug Berger: 46:44

And they will, yeah. Well, definitely let me know and I can include it when I launch this pod, the podcast that you'll be featured in. So I imagine that this will end up airing, I would, I would guess in like March. Okay, awesome. So, so if there's anything in particular that you want me to add in, I can go ahead and add that in, in the intro.

Gavin: 47:12

Sure, awesome. We'll definitely, we'll definitely do that. I'll be, I'll be a lot further along by then. Yeah.

Doug Berger: 47:18

Cool. Yeah. And you know, what, whatever, whatever I can do to kind of, you know, share the love, I'm, I'm happy to do that. Oh, and it

Gavin: 47:27

goes both ways. Like really, I mean, it's been, it's been really, really awesome. And it's really, it truly goes both ways. If there's anything I can promote or talk about, or let me know. Yeah,

Doug Berger: 47:40

right now this this is in its fledgling stages I I've been knocking around the idea of doing this podcast for years and the I I started back in January and and hit A major roadblock in the process, um, with the formatting. So I had to come up with new formatting and I was about to start that in March. And of course the shit hit the fan. And, uh, and so, um, the way that I ended up doing it completely shifted. And now, uh, like the whole interview concept. That wasn't even part of the original format, right? The original format was supposed to be a banter about, uh, different things going on in the world of branding, from typography to logo history to brand refreshes and so on. As the show's gone on, like, I never expected to have a Q& A section, right? So people are actually sending in questions. And I'm like, um, I guess I have questions to answer.

Gavin: 48:57

Right. I think what you're doing is fantastic. And I think there's a heck of a need for it. Um, I really do. And I don't see, you know, you see a lot of kind of generic marketing rubbish. Where people, there's a lot of marketing people out there that really honestly just don't understand the difference between design, branding, marketing, advertising. They all just think it's marketing. They don't understand the vehicles and the hierarchy and what's supposed to do what. So they just go, well, these are the rules to sell your product on social media. And it's just, it's just not interesting. And it's, so I think what you're doing is It's not just interesting, I think it's important.

Doug Berger: 49:35

Yeah, and I think it, you know, my goal is, and I, and you obviously, uh, figured this out, that, you know, my goal is really to, to deliver something to younger designers and to figure a way to get them engaged because as, as an agency owner, Even when I would have these, these creative sessions with my designers, I would reference other work, and they would have no clue who Paula Scher is. And they'd have no clue. And I would go even further back and be like, you know, and mention, Uh, Joseph Mueller Rockman, you know, and, and Milton Glaser happened to be one of my instructors, you know, and so, yeah, wow, yeah, wow. That is something, that is amazing,

Gavin: 50:40

that is flipping cool, man.

Doug Berger: 50:43

So here's a picture of Milton Glaser and me in 1996.

Gavin: 50:49

That is so cool, man. That is so cool. Yeah, we're not far behind. I mean, I started, um, I've done my music degree. I left, I did my music degree in 95, I started design in 99. That's, yeah, I mean, Milton Glaser and, uh, obviously what's his name from Braun. What's his name? I'm not sure. I've forgotten now. That's mad. But now what you say is so critical. I mean, I had a whole thing on David Carson a while ago and how, how profoundly influenced I was by his work.

Doug Berger: 51:34

He and I are like passing boats in the night. We keep going back and forth trying to come up with a date for him to do the show. And so he, he actually, he emailed me. I guess a friend of mine suggested that he be on the show. And so he emailed me about it. And, and so I'm like, okay, cool. Um, when do you want to do this? And he's like, how's Wednesday? Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I can't do that. How about it's just been this.

Gavin: 52:08

If you get, I mean, for me, this is a really interesting thing because he's a tricky one. Because he's, he's, he's like the only designer he, he's, he's, to me, moved across to artists. He's a graphic artist. He is. Uh, he's not really in the, in the, in the, in the strict definition of a designer. Like if you book David Carson to do something, you're going to get David Carson. Whether, whether it's like the right thing or not, you getting David Garcia, which is really interesting. It happened that it's a break up and all the rest where you just became this rockstar designer where he can afford to do that. I mean, very few people, I don't know. I can't think of anyone else actually that just, that is in that position. I mean, are you familiar with Barbara I know the name, but I don't know her work. Oh, you know, her work here. Hold on. I mean, even Paula Scherer is solving problems. Do you know what I mean? Like on a private, on a private projects and stuff, she does, she, she does cool stuff and very interesting kind of illustrations, but she's still solving design problems for a client.

Doug Berger: 53:33

Do you recognize this?

Gavin: 53:35

Oh, wow. Of course.

Doug Berger: 53:37

Yeah. So this is Barbara Kruger. And

Gavin: 53:41

one of my favorite brands. It's such a phenomenal brand.

Doug Berger: 53:45

And so, um, yeah, she makes these amazing immersive experiences now. Oh, wow. Uh huh. Incredible, isn't it? Yeah, that's intense, man. Um, yeah, there was this one that I got to experience. I think it's this one, actually. Um, this was, this was in Washington, D. C. And yep, that's exactly it. It's the Hirshhorn. So I, I happen to have a bunch of these.

Gavin: 54:21

So she gets booked to do that thing and that's it. Like who was that lady that did those happenings in Times Square? And, um, she almost like performance art where it was just words and, um, I can't remember now, but, but yeah, it's a similar sort of thing where, okay. So she almost like installations. Oh yeah. Isn't that incredible? Yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing. So yeah, you get them, you know, you get them, but you, you know, if you're a bank. If you're a new startup kind of cryptocurrency bank, you're not going to go to David Carlson to design your logo. Like that's just like, and that for me is fascinating because I'd love to know his take on that. I mean, maybe he does, maybe it's just, he does. And this is work that I've never seen. And I love to take on where design, what is the difference between design and art? Because to me, if you look at the dictionary, it's pretty clear. Like design is literally solving a problem and has to be a problem in order to find a solution. And if you want a problem, find people.

Doug Berger: 55:33

If his, if his, if his calendar and mine ever, uh, are able to overlap and I get the opportunity to ask, I will certainly, uh, To include that amongst those questions

Gavin: 55:45

and another amazing one would be Michael Beirut. I mean, I'm reading one of his newer books at the moment. He's, uh, another one. It's just, you've, you've, have you seen a lot of his. Um, I think he's got a Ted talk where he's got a couple where he talks, I'll send you, I'll send you a link. He, and this, this I found really interesting. He talks a lot about the client education process as well. And he says, you think that just because we're pentagram and we like everyone thinks we revere him at the top. We have the same problem where the client thinks I don't like it. They have exactly the same shit that they have to deal with at that level. And I found that really interesting. You know,

Doug Berger: 56:26

I got to tell you, one of my favorite stories came from Paul Rand and, and so, Steve Jobs had been fired from Apple, and so he started Next, um, which was another computing company. And obviously the name was meant to be a, uh, a thank you next kind of a moment. And it must've been expensive and never sold. Yeah. And so, so his desire was to have the best of the best. So who does he hire to do the logo? He goes to Paul Rand. And so, he sees the logo, and he comments, and Paul Rand goes, No. Right, and I love it. And he's like, he literally told Steve Jobs, That he could go fuck off and hire someone else. He's like, you hired me to solve the problem. This is the salt. This is the solution to your problem. Is,

Gavin: 57:34

is the final solution of the cube. Is that full ran solution? Yeah. He goes somewhere else. That was it

Doug Berger: 57:42

here. Hold on a second.

Gavin: 57:45

I love it.

Doug Berger: 57:46

Yeah. I'm looking at it. So he created a, a whole brand language, but what you see. I'll just pull this up so we're on the same page here. Yeah, I

Gavin: 57:57

see the logo presentation guide. It actually reduces remarkably well. So yeah, it's this one that's right here. That's live on my screen. I just love that he told him to fuck off. And he, he, he was like, uh, okay. Like that actually, that job's back down. Like that's, that's yeah. And, but the problem is it takes someone like Paul Rand. So what happens when it's Paul Rand, but it's, but he doesn't have the stature of Paul Rand yet. Right. And I think that's, I think that's why I'm going into online education and talks and writing because I'm just tired. Like if they say, well, why this and why that. Because I said so. Like, that's why. Because I've been doing it for a while, and that's why you hired me. Like, it's like going to a heart surgeon, and the heart surgeon gives you three hearts and says, well, pick one. Which one do you want? It's just done.

Doug Berger: 58:52

I gotta tell you, the only time that a customer questions my judgment is when I give them options. So. Exactly. So, I do things. I do things a little bit differently than many. I actually put together a presentation that covers all of the bases. Um, I, I'm gonna share something with you that I would not ordinarily share. Um, give me a moment. So giving you a little bit of insight, of course, I need to find it to make sure that I can even share it with you. Um, Which is a test to your filing system. That would certainly take me a Well, first I have to remember which client it is and then, let's see. And then, okay. So. Will this work? It looks like it. Looks promising. I'm not seeing it. Okay, let me see if there's a better way to do this. There we go. That'll work. All right. Ready? Yeah. And let me know if you, can you hear the sound? Not that it matters.

Gavin: 1:00:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug Berger: 1:00:49

Okay. So, I begin by going, Okay, this is who you are. I go from the point of, this is your vision, this is your mission, we're trying to get you to, to make sure that you're remembering who you are as a company. Because obviously, if they're not using that foundation, then all of this is meaningless. And then, whoops, and then, and then we dial into the tone. So this way, okay, now we've identified who exactly we're wanting to speak to and how we want to speak to them. And so for them, This needed to be a unified, timeless, and simple brand. So we talk about how we unify the brand, and then we talk about how we make it timeless, and then we present Man, the audio is a little much. Sorry.

Gavin: 1:01:58

No, I mean I just, I love your, I mean, your use of color and photography and it is so great. How much, how much of it is just less? I just, this is beautifully designed

Doug Berger: 1:02:09

and so we talk about the brand relationship and what

Gavin: 1:02:13

is that? Is that Gotham or is it the other one? What's that? What's it called? What are you asking? The, the typeface. Is that that Gotham?

Doug Berger: 1:02:21

It is

Gavin: 1:02:21

Gotham, yeah.

Doug Berger: 1:02:23

Yeah. Beautiful man. We've been using Gotham since 2009, 2010. I think, are you impressed that I know that No, I

Gavin: 1:02:34

would hope that you do Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like if you didn't, there'd be a problem. Yeah.

Doug Berger: 1:02:41

Such a beautiful topic. And then we, we then talk about the actual logo. We then finally present the logo. We're, as you can see, we're three quarters of the way through the presentation. We still haven't shown them the logo, and so now we show them the logo.

Gavin: 1:03:00

Right, I got you. Yeah, that's lovely. Yeah, because then that got context. What you've done, what you've done is, yeah, you've created context. And so when they see it, it, yeah, it, it makes sense. And they go, Oh, I get it. And they've got a story that they can tell the people that asked them. Yeah. It's nice. Really nice. I love that sit happy. It's very cool. Thanks.

Doug Berger: 1:03:33

Yeah. And then of course we reinforce it with a great designer quote.

Gavin: 1:03:40

Yeah, absolutely. But there are, I mean, there's some amazing ones, some amazing ones out there. And it's just some of them, like, like the guy from the CEO of Jaguar. I just wish I could say that where he says the. You think good design is expensive, you should see the cost of bad design. Exactly. I would love to just be able to make that mine, but, you know, ego only goes so far. I'm happy to put his name there. It's not a problem.

Doug Berger: 1:04:09

Well, it was such a pleasure to finally actually like meet you virtually. And, uh, and, and maybe one of these years, uh, I'll make my way to, uh, to South Africa. Where

Gavin: 1:04:23

are you? You're based in New York.

Doug Berger: 1:04:24

I'm in Orlando, Florida. Oh, you're in Florida. Yeah, I'm based in Orlando.

Gavin: 1:04:30

I've been to Florida, I didn't get up to Orlando, but I've, I've, I've been to, you know, I've seen the Keys in Miami and I've been to, um, Uh, um, Tallahassee for my sins. Interesting choice. Yeah, it's just where the, it's where the Amtrak happened to go, you know, and I spent a month on Amtrak sleeping, literally sleeping. Is that a time where I got one of those tourist things? It was like 400 for the month. Where you just travel and sleep on the train and it was just like me and and on the road by Jack Kerouac and like bag of peanuts and a guitar and a notebook and a mini disc player

Doug Berger: 1:05:16

and that was it, man. And so you slept and traveled and saw the country. And so you should have made your way to Orlando because Jack Kerouac lived here. Oh really? Yeah. I didn't know that, man. It's like a little bungalow in it. Yeah, he lived in a tiny little bungalow in an area called College Park, and the house has been preserved as a museum. Oh, wow! Yeah.

Gavin: 1:05:39

Yeah, I mean, down there, I mean, he's a really interesting character. His writing had such a profound impact on me. So, in quite a similar way to David Carson from a design. Like, just don't give a fuck. Just, just Make your own rules. Just write, just go, just do that. Fonts the wrong. I love, did you see that thing that David Carson did? Fuck, if you interview him, you've gotta talk to him about this. He, he did a page in Reagan where he changed the fonts to ding bat He changed, literally changed the typeface to ding bats.'cause he said it was fucking boring, man. and no one. No one wants to read that shit. So the dingbats were more interesting. Genius. It's genius, like, you know, I'm not sure if it's, if it's, if it's genius or, or drug induced. Uh, I mean, he gets away with it because it was Reagan, you know? So for the, for that market, it was like a surf. Trash magazine. It was just so perfect. They have a whole page where the text is just Mark, you can read it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, if you get a chance to chat to him I would that's definitely one I'd love to Yeah, I I would I'll watch all of them man for sure. We'll stay in touch And I'll let you know how the courses and things go. And, um, that'd be very cool. If I'm far along enough to get that going, we can just put something at the end or in the beginning that would be, and please, if there's anything you want from me to promote or anything, please just let me know. Um, all of the ones you do put them, I'll promote them for sure. Very cool. Yeah. Going, I think you've got a great thing going here. I think it's really. Important.

Doug Berger: 1:07:25

Thank you. Well, I will, I, I will look forward to continuing to keep in touch and, uh, and maybe in a couple months we should reconvene and, and, and, uh, and, and chat over a scotch or something.

Gavin: 1:07:38

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then we could even, I mean, at, at one, at some point we could, I mean later on, if, if your, if your, if your, um, format ever went that way to do almost like those, those kind of Hollywood round tables where you get like. You know, for, for designers to talk about a specific solution. Like you could take something like the London Olympics. That was such a fucker and you can talk about like, like, was it, wasn't it? What, you know, there's some interesting big, big kind of design successful blenders debates that could have, it'd be interesting.

Doug Berger: 1:08:14

Sure. Yeah. And you know, there are segments of the show where, you know, I'll talk about, Uh, A particular logo. Um, and, and for example, I talk about the Apple logo in one of the shows. And, uh, and, and what you discover is I absolutely abhor the Apple logo. It's terrible. When you actually look at it, because we have been fed this terrible design, It's become so innocuous, but when you actually, but when you actually dissect it from a design perspective, you realize that it's everything about it is wrong, so

Gavin: 1:08:59

it's quite clumsy. Yeah. I mean, they just, you know, I think, I think they got lucky. Well,

Doug Berger: 1:09:09

what happened? With the original logo, is that the Apple icon had logotype that it was never meant to be removed from. Oh,

Gavin: 1:09:25

interesting.

Doug Berger: 1:09:26

And so that logotype, which was very stylized, fit right into that niche where the, uh, the byte is. And obviously the bite exists to help delineate it from being another fruit or vegetable because you want to have a bite mark like that in anything else. And so the, uh, the A fit snugly into that arc and, and then it had the rest of the balance and, and the leaf, the direction of the leaf made sense at the time. But now when you look at it, It's the leaf is on the wrong side. So there are just all of these weird

Gavin: 1:10:11

nuances. I heard the thing from the designer that did it, um, that the bite was an accident, but it's just a play on the word bite. I mean, obviously the B Y T E. Right. I'll just like, did you reverse engineer that? Did you think of it later? Did it happen at the time? I think

Doug Berger: 1:10:29

it's story. I think it's fodder for legend. Yeah.

Gavin: 1:10:33

And that's, you know, they just got lucky, man. They, they've built this through product design and just the myth that they've built in with Johnny Ive and they've created these. They've just, yeah, as you say, they've created the myth and you kind of, as long as you've got something that's cleanly executed, you can kind of build the value and get away with it. And what, what is good about the Apple mark is that it's very polarizing. The whole company is just completely polarizing, like people hate them or people love them.

Doug Berger: 1:11:04

Well, I, I, I ended up stuck with it because, you know, I'm a nineties designer like you. And so

Gavin: 1:11:12

I'd never leave. I, I'm, I'm happy with Apple. I I'm disappointed in where they've gone off to Steve left. But, but I still, the ecosystem still works for me. Same here. The iPhone. I've got to watch the TV, the whole thing. And until there is a competitor that can come along to give me that can compete in how it solves my problems. It's, it's actually a functional choice. Now it's not even a brand choice anymore.

Doug Berger: 1:11:47

Yeah, completely. And that, that, that harkens back to their original philosophy, which was having complete control over the hardware and the software. So exactly. I don't think we'll see that. I don't think Google is the only company that's positioned to do that. And it goes,

Gavin: 1:12:08

Fuck up from my perspective. Oh my God. I think it's, I just think it's such a missed opportunity, man. I think it could be such an amazing. And I just think it's a fuck up competition. They don't have to care.

Doug Berger: 1:12:24

Yeah. I think what, what would suit, uh, Google very well is to, uh, leverage their nest brand. And absolutely and to create things in that regard. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see that transition happen. I think Google home fell rather flat and they already have a really solid brand in place with nest. So I wouldn't be surprised if we saw something like that happen. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think to see, well, let's talk about this in a few months.

Gavin: 1:12:58

Absolutely. There's plenty to discuss. We'll, uh, yeah, we'll catch up. Yeah. All right. Sounds good. Take care. Cheers. Thank you so much, man. Bye.

Doug Berger: 1:17:24

Thank you for tuning in to our Brand of Brothers interview From The Vault. Special thanks to our guest Gavin Knox-Grant, and a big thank you to our presenting sponsor Remixed: the branding agency; along with production assistance from Johnny Diggz and Simon Jacobsohn; music by P.R.O. Don't forget to check us out at BrandShowLive.com and follow us on the socials @BrandShowLive.