Brand of Brothers
Brand of Brothers
AI in Branding
Welcome to the latest installment of Brando Brothers. I'm Doug. And I'm Johnny. Today we're talking about AI in branding. Alright, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz:we, we recently posted an article on the, the brand of brothers blog. Um, about generative AI and how it is, uh, changing things in, uh, the creative, uh, design process. Um, and I don't come from that background, but you do, you've been doing this for a long time. Um, so how do you think this is changing? How the, the branding process, how, what, what you've been doing for 18 plus years, how has, how is it changing? 30. 30. I'm sorry.
Doug Berger:18 at remix. Okay. 30. 30 in my current existence. Yes. So how do I feel a generative AI specifically is impacting the branding process? Is that that the big question? So
Johnny Diggz:it is, or what has changed? How has it affected, you know, not, not just everywhere, but how is it like you?
Doug Berger:Oh, well, the way that it's impacted me. Um, it is really about creating an ethical conundrum, to be quite frank. Um, so, what, what I started with was trying to analyze what is okay to do. Um, where, where does the line, where is there a line between the designer and the computer? And then what qualifies as, as being a creative. So, the road that I went down was Let's make it where it's a tool and not an actual replacement for what I and other designers do.
Johnny Diggz:But you could, I mean, with the tools that are available today, someone comes to you and they say, I want a logo. Uh, why would they, you know, it seems like they could just type in, Um, I want a logo that has a train on it and a tree, and AI can do that for you.
Doug Berger:It's true, but what AI can't do is go, wait, there should be a strategy here. And creating a logo for the sake of creating a logo, that's basically like having a widget that does nothing, right? The whole point of a brand is not just a logo. You need The, the verbal and the visual, as it relates to the visual, then you need the logo, the color palette, the typography, the patterns, the textures, then the actual application of these things in conjunction with maybe there's photography, maybe there are infographics. What does that look like? What is the visual brand language? And theoretically, you could get that out of AI. But we're, we're looking at it from a bigger picture than AI can currently do. Um, and can AI look at a brand standards guide and give you criticism on it? Sure. Can it create one right now? No. But I don't feel like I answered your question.
Johnny Diggz:Well, I guess, let me ask it a different way, if, if you, where, where is it appropriate to use AI in the design process? I
Doug Berger:feel like it is okay to use AI in the design process for ideation. I look at it the same way as creating an inspiration board. So let's say that you create an inspiration board on Pinterest, and it has a bunch of logos and color palettes and other brands that seem to align with the brand that you're looking to create. Is that wrong? I don't think so. I think it's, it's, actually expected as part of your research to see what competition does. And so, for me, that, that falls in the, in the, in the funnel, uh, or the, the vertical, the silo of, uh, of ideation. And I, I feel like it's totally okay to use prompts that you're originating and not going to ChatGPT, for example, and say, write me a prompt to create a logo that looks like this and to feed it a logo.
Johnny Diggz:I, I suppose, um, another entire level of this is the idea of where, like, for example, if you're using, uh, the image generators like Dolly, um, do you, And you don't know where that, where they were trained, like some of these.
Doug Berger:Oh yeah, definitely intellectual property ownership is absolutely a big issue. So, uh, to that end, yes, there are tools that make it kind of a non issue, but I still struggle with the idea of saying, okay, I want to create a logo and it's based on some, uh, some repository that Adobe has put together. It's still not an original idea. because you're cobbling pieces together from something someone has already done.
Johnny Diggz:So, are there ethical uses of these, uh, these generation tools beyond just ideation?
Doug Berger:Generally speaking, I would say no. However, there are instances where it can be okay, right? So, first and foremost, I feel like not only does the client need to be aware that it's AI driven or AI generated media, I also think that there might be a line where it's necessary for the consumer to also be aware that it's AI driven. But I think on an ethical level, there are a bunch of criteria that need to be evaluated. Now, what, what, I would like to ask of you is, what do you think are the potential drawbacks of creating a brand that's so heavily reliant on AI? And this is actually coming from something that exists where there was this icon set that Pentagram created for a client of theirs, and it, Utilized AI to generate this icon set.
Johnny Diggz:You know, I was, I, I was trying to explain this to someone else the other day and I found myself using, uh, an analogy for, um, microwave dinners. That if you because they were they happen to be a chef. So, um, you know, if if you want to have Eat a microwave dinner You can just pop it in in in the microwave and in heat it up and it's done and that's kind of like a lot Of generative AI these days you you can Put in a different prompt and maybe get a different microwave dinner. But, but, you're generally going to end up with the same general quality of food. Um, to change one of the ingredients in that is really hard because you didn't Once it's already made, you can't pull out the lettuce or the tomatoes, right? And so So if, if you've designed something from the ground up and you've, you've taken the time to build the individual elements and you understand why it's structured, how it's structured, the way it is, you can, you can pull elements out in, in the design or in a, in a, uh, in to take back to the cooking analogy, um, you can change the ingredients, but, but, um, so if you, one of the main challenges Is that if you, you, if you rely too heavily, if you want to change just one element of your design, it's so much harder to do that with an AI generated because you don't have, you don't have the foundation that it was built upon to deconstruct it. It's all just sort of a microwave dinner.
Doug Berger:And, and to that end, unlike a microwave dinner where you can get that consistency, if you feed the same prompt.
Johnny Diggz:You, yeah, you might get 10 different dinners, but they'll have the same jumble of stuff, but it might be in different ratios and, and, you know, and, and that, that is both the sort of the, the, the, one of the benefits is. But there's also, um, uh, a little bit of, uh, of that, um, you know, slot machine mentality, because every time you hit generate, you don't really know what you're going to get, and sometimes it is even better than what you had thought, but many times it is, you know, 80 percent of the way there, and how So, um, yeah. How, how do you get that last 20%? And that's where you still need that human skill. You either to, um, take what it got you the 80% and rebuild it so you can actually make the, the final 20 or, um, or to be able to take that, that 80% and, and take it across the finish line to, to get the final product.
Doug Berger:And to that end, what does it say about a brand's integrity? When they are creating all of this AI generated media, are you still getting an authentic brand experience if, if the brand itself isn't really creating it?
Johnny Diggz:Yeah, I don't I don't see how I think that we're at the point now where many consumers can can tell the difference there is that as good as it has gotten that uncanny valley is still there and humans can detect it even if it's subconsciously. And so, um, and you can see this across music. You can see this across visuals. You can see it in text, um,
Doug Berger:especially visuals, which is where we predominantly live. Right, right. And so could you imagine if You know, we, we went away from actually manipulating the pixels ourselves and just relied on mid journey or dolly to generate these images. It's going to look like it came from mid journey or dolly. So what, what is our, what is our agency style, right? There, there are companies that come to us because of, of the aesthetics of the agency and that goes away. No matter how much you train it, it's still not going to be able to reflect that particular aesthetic, which means that brand authenticity becomes diluted. Um, so, uh, that, that being said, you know, where, where does human creativity come into play? Uh, in relation to a I from your perspective, I know that that I do this day in day out right where where I create visuals, but from someone who's been on the receiving end who has has Worked with agencies not just worked at agencies. What what does that look like from a? Consumers perspective. I know that that thought kind of went all over the place and was a little bit meandering and potentially confusing Let me rephrase it so So, and we've been talking about human creativity, uh, and the idea of, of utilizing AI and where does AI fit in. So what, what I'm trying to get at is, so there are expectations as someone who has hired an agency. And if an agency delivered a project to you that was noticeably AI generated, what would, what would that do from your perspective? How do you, how, how do you resolve that?
Johnny Diggz:Well, I think that one thing that we need to consider is that, um, clients are using AI. And so, our, our, you know, as an agency, Your work is going to be checked with an AI, uh, not every time, and I'm sure you've seen examples of this already. One hundred percent. Yeah, so, um, you know, you send something to a client and they, you know, I immediately will say, Okay, give me, you know, give me ten criticisms of this because I need them. You know,
Doug Berger:um, but. Is that because you feel like a client might not be as educated in the branding process so they go to ChatGPT to try to assess whether or not something is as good as it could be?
Johnny Diggz:Yeah, it could be. I mean, I think that the, you know, people are using these tools for a wide variety of reasons. Um, and one of them is, uh, to, to do some of the work that they were doing. And if they can use a tool that says, uh, evaluate this on my behalf, um, that saves them time, I think that they're doing that. Whether or not they're ethically doing, the one thing that I think that we all should be doing is making sure that there's a human reading And agreeing or disagreeing with the content that it generated. Um, but, uh, you know, one thing that Um, that, that, I mean, I, I don't, I don't think that there are tools, um, that can, that can consistently verify whether something was generated via AI or not. Um, but if you're working with an agency that you've not had that discussion with them yet, it's probably time to have that discussion openly. Yeah, it's definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, you
Doug Berger:definitely want to make sure that you're on the same page with them. Right, right.
Johnny Diggz:So if your content, any of your content, whether it's your copy or your visual content, anything is being, uh, generated by AI, I think you have the right to know that and to, to know when. And where it's being used because
Doug Berger:it's, I mean, back to the ethical concept, right? I mean, not only do, do you and I both agree that, uh, at the, at the end of the day, whatever content is created, there needs to be significant human involvement, but not only that, we both very much agree that the client not only deserves to know, but should know. Uh, how and when AI is being utilized.
Johnny Diggz:And I don't think that needs to be, uh, disclosed on, uh, uh, a, like a per instance basis, but it needs to be discussed on a ethical usage basis. Like there's, there's, there, there needs to be a consistent understanding that, hey, we may use. Uh, AI to, uh, generate a simulated background for this, you know, for stuff like that, but it's not going to be generating your fonts.
Doug Berger:Well, I mean, one of the most, one of the most common things that we use AI, generative AI for is expanding an image width, right? So you'll have that, that main person who's in the middle of the photo, but you need a little bit more to the left. So you have a place to put copy, for example, on an ad. Um, And usually, it's pretty obvious, uh, that, that It's AI generated. Obviously, we, we try to make it where it blends a little bit better, so there isn't a question of whether or not it was real or AI generated. Um, but ultimately, uh, you know, I, I, I think that, that what we're looking at. is how, how can AI shape or influence the perception of a brand by their customers when they're utilizing AI and assuming that they're using AI in an ethical way, what does that do to a brand's authenticity when they're not actually generating it, um, by, by a human, but instead by a computer? Does that, does that shift perception? Do we care?
Johnny Diggz:I think, I think people do. I think that, um, you know, in certain circumstances they do, in certain, in others, there's, there are AI generated, uh, influencers now, there are, that are popular, that are generating revenue, and, um, is that because it's a novel thing, that they're able to generate revenue, or is this That's the new norm. And that, uh, it's a viable alternative. You know, we could be, the technology exists to be able to do a podcast like this, completely AI generated, and some exist. And I've seen channels where they, where they do that. Uh, is that going to resonate with audiences? I think it depends on your audience. And if your audience is other AI, and you're teaching AI with AI. That's such a crazy idea. Right? Right. So, um, it's, but that's about, I mean, we're, we're in this age now where, uh, synthetic data is training a eyes. And so we're no, we've, we've basically run out of, uh, human generated data that it can consume. And so now they're looking at. Um, at what they're calling synthetic data to train the next generation of AI on. I don't even know what that means. Yeah,
Doug Berger:and frankly, I don't know what that means in the world of branding, right? Obviously, the last thing that a company wants to do is infringe upon another company's intellectual property. Because that could just simply tink them as a business, right? It'll put them out of business through litigation. Um, so it not only are, are we dealing with the, the whole IP component, we're also dealing with, well, what do we think is the right thing to do from a moral perspective and an ethical perspective? And so listen, I mean, we just skimmed the surface. Yeah. And I think we could have this conversation for, for days, months, and probably even years. Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers. A big thank you to our presenting sponsor, Remixed, the branding agency, along with production assistance from Johnny Diggz, Simon Jacobsohn, and me, Doug Berger. We can't forget music by PRO. Speaking of not forgetting, remember to do that like and subscribe thing and find us at BrandShowLive. com and follow us on the socials at BrandShowLive.