Brand of Brothers
A podcast about the world of branding. From tone to typography, we explore how logos happen, what makes advertising successful, and why this all matters.
Brand of Brothers
What is Marketing?
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Welcome back to Brand of Brothers with Doug Berger and Johnny Diggz, where branding, marketing, and business collide with a little bit of fun and a lot of truth. In this episode, we go all the way back to basics with one deceptively simple question: what is marketing. Spoiler alert, it is not just posting on social media and it is not the same thing as sales.
🔥 In this episode:
• A clean definition of marketing as the line between your product and your customer
• How marketing and sales work together, and where the handoff happens
• The lemonade stand example that explains marketing, branding, and conversion in plain English
• Why visibility, signage, and presentation matter before anyone ever buys
• How pricing shapes expectations and becomes part of the value proposition
• Needs versus wants, and how that changes the way you position your offer
• Why trying to market to everybody is a great way to waste money
• The fishing net analogy for targeting, and why narrower audiences require a finer mesh
• How targeting applies to ads, streaming, and even direct mail
• What trust indicators are, and why reviews and longevity influence buying decisions
• Why authenticity is making a comeback and why people can sense fake content fast
• How storytelling builds connection, even as tools and platforms change
• The best no budget move for small businesses: spend time, not money, and network locally
• What social media is actually best for in marketing, and why it is often more trust than sales
• Rapid fire takes on iconic campaigns, tired buzzwords, and the only podcast you “should” be listening to
💡 Whether you are running a micro business, scaling a service company, or trying to make your marketing make sense again, this episode brings marketing back to reality. You will walk away with a practical way to think about marketing as connection and clarity, not noise, and a reminder that the fundamentals still matter, even when the tools keep changing.
🎧 Listen now to learn how to:
• Separate marketing from sales so you can build a strategy that actually converts
• Tighten your targeting so your budget stops leaking
• Use price, presentation, and trust to shape perception and drive action
• Build authentic messaging that feels human and not manufactured
• Choose the right role for social media in your business instead of chasing vanity metrics
Presented by Remixed, the full service branding agency helping companies craft, launch, and grow powerful brands.
🎶 Music by PRO
📍 Visit us at BrandShowLive.com
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👍 Like, subscribe, and share to support the show and keep the conversations going
Welcome to the latest installment of Brander Brothers. I'm Doug.
Johnny Diggz:And I'm Johnny. Today we're talking about what is marketing.
Doug Berger:Alright, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz:we are going to take it back. Way back. We're gonna, let's we're, let's go way, way back back. We're gonna filter through all of the, the marketing, marketing language, Uhhuh. And I want to just start with a very simple question. Bring it in.
Doug Berger:What is marketing? What is marketing? So there are two. Classifications of marketing, right? There is the business side and there is the communications side, right? The crux of all of it is sales. How is that for a, a definition? The cr. Okay, so Oh, was
Johnny Diggz:shit. So you No, no, I, well, you, you, you went straight to sort of the, the, I think the. The real issue that I've always had is that a lot of people seem to equate marketing and sales. Yeah. And they sort of think of them as one thing. And even organizationally, group, you know, companies will have marketing and sales. You'll have a as VP of marketing and sales or whatever. They, they tend to group marketing and sales together. So why are they, how are they different? So it's point
Doug Berger:A to point B. Right. So point A to point B is marketing. Point B is the sale, right? The, the line between point A and point B is marketing. Wait, where's point A? So point A is your product or your service, and so then at point B would be where your audience lives and they should need or. More likely want whatever product or service that you have. And so that line that connects your product and or service to your customer is marketing.
Johnny Diggz:Let's take it down to. An example, like, um, a lemonade stand for example. So where, where in that process you're, you're selling lemonade. Your product is lemonade, right? And, but you, how do you, where does the marketing begin and the sale. Ends, well, the, the sale ends with the transaction. Okay. Right, right. So that's the ultimate goal to get to that, get to that quarter.
Doug Berger:Yeah. I, in the world of marketing, we call that a conversion, right? Okay. Yeah, yeah. So, um, the, the marketing of a lemonade stand begins with the stand itself, right? So if you see a lemonade stand that is just a table with a kid behind it and a picture of lemonade. That's marketing, but. It would be more effective marketing if that lemonade stand had something on the front of the table and maybe even had a, a banner over the top, like you see in the cartoons that say lemonade. Mm-hmm. Because it makes it even more clear. What that child is doing. But of course, the, the concept of a lemonade stand is a, a rather universal concept, especially, you know, in, in western cul in, in American culture. Um, so, and the
Johnny Diggz:e always has to be backwards. I know that, that like the lemonade font is a backward E.
Doug Berger:So yes, obviously that, that having character is a component of branding and branding. Then is how, uh, how you, you portray yourself and the marketing is how you forward that personality and your message to your audience
Johnny Diggz:is, does price factor into marketing?
Doug Berger:I believe it does. Okay. So it has to, because marketing is about a value proposition and that value proposition transcends, uh, belief systems. And one of those components is, is value thrift, I should say. Um, and, and whether or not something is in parity with how you perceive it. So if you are buying lemonade. Let's say that the price is 50 cents, your expectation is probably reasonably low. So if you receive a cup of lemonade in one of those, uh, cone shaped paper cups, just the little
Johnny Diggz:snow cone cups Yeah, yeah. Or water cooler, cooler cup, cooler cups. If it,
Doug Berger:if those are still thing, um, it, your, your expectations would probably be met. However, if the price was double that. And you got it in a paper cup, you'd probably tilt your head a little bit like the RCA dog. And, and I'm dating myself, I guess, and, and, and, and go, what is going on? This is disparate from my expectation, however, dissonant and, and so you would probably expect to receive a, a, at least an eight ounce plastic cup or something, right? And. Wow. Then if it's double that price, right, we're, we're, or, or quadruple the original price, right? We at$2, your expectation is probably to get a good 12 to 16 ounces. There should
Johnny Diggz:be some vodka in there.
Doug Berger:Well, I think the price might go up a little bit, and I'm pretty sure it won't be sold by a child, um, or, or in front of a house. Otherwise, eh, you probably can't
Johnny Diggz:market it as lemonade either. Uh, it
Doug Berger:could be hard lemonade. Um, so as far as. Th the, the price is concerned in, in its relation to marketing. Um, that kid could probably do what I did when I was a little kid, which was, and we sold lemonade for a little bit less back then. Um, was cross out the 50 cents and make it. 25 cents knowing that most adults did not carry coins, but dollar bills. Mm-hmm. And would just say, keep the change.
Johnny Diggz:Ooh, that's, that's some slick, uh, slick math. Now, you, you mentioned value. Um, I wanted to, uh, talk about needs versus wants in your audience. So how do you. Uh, so it's a
Doug Berger:complicated question because generally speaking, the only thing that we as humans really need are food and shelter. So, uh, from a needs perspective, you can pretty much see that if it's taxed at a grocery store, you don't really need it. But that banana that you're eyeballing, you don't need to worry about, uh, you know, figuring out what, uh, 7% or 6% or 5%, whatever your sales tax rate is. Um, but. More realistically when it comes to needs, A better example would be like an HVAC company. And if you're a homeowner, you need an HVAC company unless you happen to know how to service your, uh, your air conditioning system. Um, and.
Johnny Diggz:Well, so thanks to YouTube. A lot of people can now.
Doug Berger:Yeah. But, but at the end of the day, there are sometimes, there, there are places where professionals belong. Absolutely. And amateurs don't. Yeah. Especially, yeah. And they find the, themselves spending
Johnny Diggz:even more money, especially when there's natural gas involved. Oh,
Doug Berger:good god. Um, so yeah, with regard to, to needs, um, you might need an HVAC service. If you're a homeowner, but if you're a renter or you're a child, you probably don't need one, right?
Johnny Diggz:Yeah.
Doug Berger:Um, but, uh, it wants are gonna be more frivolous. Um, but they, they might not be super frivolous, so, uh, you might want a cookie, right? That is not something that you need, although your sweet tooth might disagree.
Johnny Diggz:Speaking of wants and needs, then. That, that talks about audiences, right? So who, absolutely. Yeah. How do you, how do you figure out who, who your audiences are to? Because it would seem to be, if you, if you just say, I wanna market my, my audiences every, you know, I wanna market to everybody. Good luck. Yeah. Right. Well, obviously it'd be very expensive, but. Um, why is it, why is it important to narrow that down?
Doug Berger:So, I like to use the analogy of a net, right, like a fishing net. So if you are trying to reach a large area of, of people, of demographics and psychographics, you're going to need a huge net. Right. And so that net is not gonna have a fine mesh because it's just impractical. Um, from a sales perspective, you're gonna, it requires more material in order to have a wider reach. Right. Just like in marketing and, and in phishing. Mm-hmm. The bigger your net, the economies of scale. Go. Go accordingly, right? So when you have a fine mesh net and you make it double the size, it's not like your holes stay the same size. So what ends up happening is if your target audience is a very specific. Age group, gender, uh, socioeconomic level, um, you know, household incomes, uh, education, et cetera. The more granular you get, the more fine mesh your net needs to be. So if you cast a generic net, let's say that you are a, a small business based in central Florida. But you do a meta campaign or a Google Ads campaign for the entirety of the United States, you might be shooting yourself in the foot because someone out in Portland is looking for an IT guy, but they're looking for an IT guy in Portland, Oregon, right? They're not looking for a an IT guy in central Florida.
Johnny Diggz:So you're wasting money displaying your ad. Uh, to cust, you know, to pot potential potential customers in Portland when there's no way they're gonna hire someone that does it in central Florida.
Doug Berger:Oh, it gets worse. Yeah, because it, it, it's actually being seen by this old woman. Who retired a long time ago, and she has no need for a, an IT company. Right? Yeah. She, she's not your ideal customer profile, but she
Johnny Diggz:has, yeah. And maybe she didn't update her her job title yet. It, while that's a possibility,
Doug Berger:uh, it, it, it's more about the fact that you. Need to know what the psychographics and demographics are of your audience in order to add adequately and accurately target them.
Johnny Diggz:And this doesn't just stand for like online ads because you can fine tune this for, uh, over the top like, like Hulu ads and streaming and stuff. You can, but also
Doug Berger:even, even for direct mail. Right? Right. So I. Whether it people still use direct mail. It direct mail, believe it or not, is still one of the most effective forms of marketing in, in, as it relates to reaching your audiences and generating conversions. It, it can't, can't so like
Johnny Diggz:plain old like buy mailing list kind of thing. Yeah. It's still a thing and, and,
Doug Berger:and it's very effective. However, there has to be a cadence to it. There. You can't just send out. Uh, for example, there is this product that United States Postal Service has called Every Door Direct, EDDM, and, uh, every door direct mail. And so, yes, and dance, electronic dance mail. Mail. Um. We're gonna be really entertaining that one person who's might be listening. Yep. Uh, and thank you for listening, by the way. Hi, mom. So yes, this EDDM prod product that I was talking about, um, you can specify, uh. Area and household, uh, demographics. Uh, like it, it could be age and it could be, uh, household income, for example. And it will tell you what the postal areas are for you to then deliver these blanket, generic email or uh, mails, direct mail postcards too. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't have to be postcards. Generally they are flat and they're cheaper It, they are cheaper by the unit, but not necessarily from the targeting. Mm-hmm. Not only can you do this EDDM that I'm talking about, which is kind of casting a wider net. Mm-hmm. You can get a little bit more granular and you can rent lists that have specific, uh, again, the psychographic and demographic components that match who your audiences are. So yes, you're paying more per, uh, per postcard, for example. Um. But you're also sending out fewer postcards. So, uh, there's a give and take. It's
Johnny Diggz:a trade off the, um, so how does. Where does trust fit in? Because that reviews and that kind of stuff seems to be like everything that people are trying to, like every thing I buy on Amazon, I get that little postcard that says, you know, scan this QR code and give us a five star rating. Like, what's that all about?
Doug Berger:So, well, in that context we call that social proofing. Um, but. Trust, uh, there are trust indicators and one of them is social proofing. Seeing that a restaurant has a a a 4.2 on on Yelp. You're probably gonna choose that restaurant over one that has$3 signs and only two stars, right? And so those are our trust indicators. Of course, you can dive a little bit deeper and get a little bit more granular as to what is being reviewed. So, uh, are, do you care about. Environment and ambiance. Do you care about service? Do you care about quality? You can get even deeper on those. Um, but then there's also, how long has the business been around? Right? Um, is it a fly by night that's only been in business for a year and might not be around next year? Or is it a, a mom pa shop that's been around for 20 years and, uh, they're middle aged and or second generation and you know, in the family? Sure. And they're not going anywhere. Right? Yeah.
Johnny Diggz:The, um, you know, with, with all the new technologies, and, I mean, relatively speaking, di Digital. Social media install, all of that is technically still newish in the marketing realm, like all of these. Oh, and it's constantly evolving. And it's always evolving. And now we've got AI in the mix. Um, do we ever have,
Doug Berger:and in social media too. So
Johnny Diggz:the question I've got is, has have the fundamental, because you've been doing this for 20 plus years, how, you know, 30, 30 years. 20 as
Doug Berger:remixed.
Johnny Diggz:Have any of the fundamental principles of marketing changed with these new tools?
Doug Berger:I believe that the biggest thing that we're seeing is not something that's really new, but a resurgence of authenticity. Right? People can. Rather quickly ascertain whether or not the content that they're receiving is AI generated or human generated.
Johnny Diggz:People are getting very smart about that. Like, it, it,
Doug Berger:I, yeah, and I, it's not even necessarily that they can put their finger on it. They just can tell their spidey senses start tingling. Right. And you're like, it's that
Johnny Diggz:uncanny valley. It's, it's, it, it, it really is. It comes out in the messaging. It comes out in the visuals. It's some, something about it that just seems.
Doug Berger:And, and there are these, there, there are these glitches that I've seen that are like just a, a, a nanosecond, uh, you know, one frame. And you're like, wait a second, just threw me. Just what just happened here? And, and, and it was because A wrinkle showed up on a, a woman's face for a brief second, and you're like, wait, I, I don't even remember what this was an ad for. And, but you're re, but you're remembering this one anomaly. Anyhow. Um, so what was the question?
Johnny Diggz:Um. I was just saying like, have, have the fundamental principles changed? Uh, I don't
Doug Berger:think they have. I think the principles remain the same. Uh, in, in that it, we should really always be true to who we are,
Johnny Diggz:right?
Doug Berger:Because if we try to be something else, there are are so many things that, that are going to happen. Uh, first and foremost, as a a, a, a proprietor, you're going to become, um, you, you're just. You're not going to care as much. Uh, you, you just become less engaging and nobody likes that. Right. Right. Um, so being. Authentic. Right. It is probably the, the, the piece
Johnny Diggz:I keep hearing. Um, thank you for cutting me off. Yeah. I appreciate it. I needed that. Yeah. Yeah. And just throwing on, I know. Um, I'm, I'm there for you, buddy. Uh, what I, what I was getting to was, in addition to the authenticity, I'm, I'm hearing a lot about storytelling.
Doug Berger:Yeah. Storytelling has been. A, a constant, um, I think we may have fallen away from it a little bit at, at from the beginning of like the, you know, the, the early two thousands up until the, the mid tens, um, the teens, if you will. And, and it, it definitely has become a, a greater focus over time. And, and that comes down to creating that connection, right? And it's that authentic connection that we're all looking for.
Johnny Diggz:So. Business owner, small business owner. I've got no budget. I'm my, a marketing team of, of one or negative one because I got too many other things to do. Give me one thing I can do, what's the one thing I I can do that's gonna give me the best bang for my little dollar?
Doug Berger:So rather than spending money. Sometimes it's better to spend time. So the best thing that a small business, like we're talking a micro business can, a, an owner can do is network, right? And so go out there, uh. Shake hands, talk to people.
Johnny Diggz:Where do you go? Like, uh, meets? Well, you can go anywhere.
Doug Berger:Yeah. You can go to meetups, you can go to church. You can go to, to the local. Piggly Wiggly, the gym. You can go to the gym, the library, the, the grocery store. Yeah. Um. It, you know, it, the, the carnival at your kids elementary school. Um, there, there are plenty of places that, uh, communities host events all the time. Right. Um, and it's about being active in the community. And that's a big part for business owners in general, is one of the biggest things that you can do as a business owner is give back and, and giving back to your community in any way that you can. That could be, uh. By creating a fundraiser or that could be by employing other people in your, in your area.
Johnny Diggz:The, uh, you know, one thing I, I notice in networking network, the answer to the question, network networking, network networking, uh, in, in social media is that I've got other, uh, people that will, who, who I see. I, I'm a, I'm a pretty active, maybe possibly overactive social media user and consumer. Um, but I'm also a creator and. I, some people will say to me, oh, you know, nobody interacts with my stuff on Facebook. Um, and it's a common complaint. People interact with my stuff all the time, but, uh, it is only because I'm, you know, generating content three or 4, 5, 5 times a day.
Doug Berger:Yeah. So social media when it comes to marketing, um, it is, is a strange beast. So. Is it something that you should give attention to? Absolutely. Is it something that you should be focused on from the sense of generating sales? Not necessarily it, it's more this is, this kind of takes us back to trust, right. For. First off, what's your strategy behind utilizing social media as a business? There, there are two really key components. So there's the conversion side, which works really well for products, especially niche based products. Those niche based products might be, you know, natural soap, um, but using some viral style influencer campaign to, to get it out there. But. Usually it's more about awareness generation, and it's usually more about that. Are they still in business Litmus test? Right. So when I'm looking for a business. I might then click one of those social media icons on their website to see what they're up to, because this also helps me get an understanding of color and character and do their values match mine if you're one of those consumers who cares about values based purchasing. Right.
Johnny Diggz:Um, alright, so we're gonna do a couple rapid fire questions here. We're trying to, I'm, I'm a pretty slow guy, but I'll do my best. All right. What's the best marketing campaign you've ever seen Doug Berger Go.
Doug Berger:Uh, I'm gonna have to give it to Nike with Just do
Johnny Diggz:it. Just do it. That was a fantastic, uh, campaign and I think they're still just doing it. Yeah, I think so. Uh, one buzzword that you wish would die,
Doug Berger:not a buzzword, but it's, uh, it's, it's, it's two letters. A I, listen, I don't think it's going away. No, it's, it's been here for a long time. Right. It's just that it's recently been repackaged in a way that people are consum consuming the term and identifying it specifically, not just as ai, but they, they're conflating it with generative ai. And, and I mean, look, kudos to, to open AI and Sam Altman, um, for, for. Basically pushing this out there in, in, into the forefront. But AI, as, as we know it, has been with us for a long time. It's just becoming more sophisticated and as time goes on as a tool, it's going to be, become more prevalent, becoming, uh, in more people's toolboxes. Uh, speaking of tool, whoa, whoa, whoa. You, you, you put it on me. What's yours?
Johnny Diggz:Oh, uh, my, my, the, your marketing buzzword, buzzword webinar i webinar is, is, uh, needs to go the way of the fax machine. We don't do webinars anymore. Stop using the term I've declared. Webinar is dead. Webinar webinar,
Doug Berger:isn't it though? I mean, don't, don't we call them podcasts now? Yes. Yes. Welcome to my webinar. And, and, and on top of that, um, when it comes to, to, to these marketing buzzwords. Can I add one more? Sure, sure. I'd love to see. The word sustainability, go away. Because let's face it, if you're not focused on sustainability, it's, yeah. What, what are you doing?
Johnny Diggz:Um, and one last question. Uh, what's, uh, name a, uh, podcast that every marketer, uh, and business person should be listening to?
Doug Berger:Oh, hands down, uh, Brand of Brothers.
Johnny Diggz:That's the right answer. Hey, all right.
Doug Berger:We did this thing.
Johnny Diggz:Have a good
Doug Berger:one. Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers. Big thank you to our presenting sponsor, Remixed, the branding agency, along with production assistance from Johnny Diggz, Simon Jacobsohn, and me, Doug Berger. We can't forget music by PRO. Speaking of not forgetting, remember to do that like and subscribe thing and find us at BrandShowLive. com and follow us on the socials at BrandShowLive.