Brand of Brothers
A podcast about the world of branding. From tone to typography, we explore how logos happen, what makes advertising successful, and why this all matters.
Brand of Brothers
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In this latest installment, our host, Doug Berger, discusses his latest favorite brand update, one of his top typefaces, a logo history lesson you may not learn in school, and some wisdom nuggets you definitely don't learn in school. Plus, design legend and living paradox, Art Chantry drops by!
Intro
Brand Updates
Favorite Fonts
Logo History Lesson
It's Interview Time
Wisdom Nuggets
It's Closing Time
0:00
Welcome to our latest installment of branded brothers. My name is Doug Berger and I will be your host during this branding journey. In this episode I'm excited to share with you the latest in brand represses a history lesson, wisdom nuggets, and our Chantry drops by to drop some knowledge bombs. Let's get branding.
0:21
Let's talk about our latest favorite brand refresh Fisher Price. As always, you've probably seen it by now and quite possibly didn't realize it, but just in case you can see it for yourself and our Instagram feed or on our website brand show live.com on a scale of resounding success to epic failure. Was it the good, the bad or the ugly? It's not good. It's fantastic. Emily Oberman of pentagram gave the logo a beautiful update. While it is still comprised of the stylized white logo type encapsulated inside a red scalloped awning.
1:00
feels like its meaning has been lifted even higher. In fact, the bottom edging is now comprised of three circular edges instead of the original four as a nod to the founders, Fisher Price, and shell. How cool is that? The logo type has retained some of its original character as well, which has been accentuated with slightly more emphasized Sara. And to add to its playful nature, the capital letters have been switched out for a lowercase F and P. and the F has a lovely ligature with the tittle of the adjacent eye. I think it's called the title. Anyhow, it's fun to say, but my favorite part the hyphen has been replaced with a semicircle or is it semi circle? Either way, it's emblematic of a youthful smile. It's so sweet. Um, so moving on. Oh, I almost forgot some much needed air around. The logo type has been added just a little bit of time.
2:00
margin really does go a long way.
2:03
It's so sophisticated, yet playful. It's contemporary, yet classic. I give this one a rating of it's fun for the whole family. And of course, since we're all averse to change, how can it be improved? Well, as one might suspect, a brand goes a bit deeper than its logo. And well pentagrams triumph continues with the brand's design system.
2:29
It gets a bit cumbersome and a little too ice cream shop for me with the sub marks and extraneous design elements in the bouncing type face makes sense. I can't say I'm a fan of the undulating baseline with such a graphically precise custom typeface. It's beautiful, but it feels forced and if it feels forced, it probably was. Usually this kind of shit is what happens when someone inserts their opinion when they should just leave it to the professionals nonetheless,
3:00
It's really full of joy. I think the whole thing will make you smile.
3:06
Favorite fonts. So is it an oldie but a goodie or something fresh from the typographic oven? Well, the latest fav is definitely an oldie but a goodie. It's garamond. According to Adobe, the renowned per region printer Claude garamond, was a driving force behind typeface creation during the Renaissance period in the 16th century. His most famous and inspirational typeface was cut early in his career for the French court, specifically King Francis the first and was based on the handwriting of the king's librarian. Angelo purchase you the earliest use of that font was in the production of a series of books by Robert estienne Robert Granton, another very famous influence on typography started as an assistant to garamond most
4:00
modern versions of the gehrmann typeface including the Adobe garamond design base, their italic tight on granton's lettering. I am probably not pronouncing these last names correctly, but
4:14
it's close enough. And since I'm a sucker for both typefaces and haikus, I wrote a couple five seven fives for you.
4:24
Ancient yet modern, this 1500s old style saref still holds up.
4:31
Or maybe you want a little more rhythm with your syllables. 1540s font comes from a typeface savant. A serif Golan. Alright, good times. Thank you for indulging me and of course you can see it for yourself on our Instagram or website Brando live.com. As well as anywhere the Google says you can legally obtain it. Personally. I'm a fan of Robert Slingbox interpretation Adobe garamond which is a
5:00
available through, you guessed it, Adobe fonts.
5:04
History was
5:06
way back in the 1900s, before Adobe Illustrator or even the Mac, or even before we reappropriated, the term branding from ranters, there were the true pioneers of modern graphic design. According to ink magazine, the top four most memorable logos in the US based on a scientific study from 2015 are Nike, apple, McDonald's, and Coca Cola. Which leads us to today's logo history lesson. And if you guess Nike, you're correct. This is a brand of legends. So there was this guy, we'll call him Phil Knight. He owned this company called Blue Ribbon sports. He was also an accounting professor at Portland State University in Portland, Oregon. And as luck would have it, Carolyn Davidson was a graphic design student there. She actually started as a journalism major but switched to design and I kid you not
6:00
she switched to design to fill an empty elective. Anyhow. So Phil Knight, as the legend goes, overheard Carolyn say that she couldn't afford painting supplies. That's when Phil asked her to do some work for him.
6:17
He needed someone to create charts and things along those lines for his meetings. And because that worked out so well for the two of them. She continued to design posters, ads and other collateral for the company.
6:30
And in 1971, which was the same year that Carolyn Davidson graduated, knight and his co founder needed a logo for a new line of running suits that they're getting ready to introduce. They asked Davidson to design a stripe, which is industry lingo for a shoe logo. Specifically, they wanted something that well they that they described as something to do with movement.
6:55
So Davidson worked on her ideas by drawing on a piece of tissue over a day.
7:00
drawing of a shoe. Smart, right? So she showed them five different designs, one of which was the swoosh, which was designed to resemble a wing. And of course hint at Nike, the Greek goddess of victory. Well, since production deadlines were looming Knights settled, yes, settled on the swoosh after rejecting four other designs seriously, when he was asked about the original logo, his original response was, I don't love it, but it'll grow on me. Anyhow, the company paid are 35 bucks, which, if adjusted for inflation would be about $225 in today's money, and, you know, it's actually not that bad for a kid fresh out of college. It's okay. So anyhow, the story has a really sweet ending, right? So in September of 1983, not long after Nike went public, obviously, it had changed its name. By this point, Mr. Knight made quite possibly the most magnanimous of gestures, he hosted a gathering where he bestowed
8:00
Upon Miss Davidson not only chocolate swooshes because who wouldn't eat that up, but also a diamond ring made of gold and engraved with the swoosh? Not bad, but but check this out. He also gave her wait for it. Okay, stop waiting for it an envelope filled with 500 shares yes 500 shares, which is split so many times that today it's worth well over a million dollars.
8:30
Okay, so as if there isn't enough nobility and humility in this story. Miss Davidson is quoted as saying after receiving all of this. This was something rather special for Phil to do because I originally built him and he paid that invoice.
8:47
Seriously, okay, that's great and all but what's even cooler than all of that? Okay, maybe not all of it, but what's cooler than that. The swoosh is all
9:00
that's left of the Nike logo. What a lovely story right?
9:05
Okay, so I know you're probably wondering, do I even like the Nike logo?
9:11
To be honest, I don't know I was ever given the chance to do anything but love it.
9:19
guest is an inadvertent innovator and the ostensible father of visualized grunge. His designs may be described as an amalgamation of low fidelity repurposed imagery, coupled with a manipulation of the arbitrary melded with striking color. His work is most notably been used by Madani the Sonics, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Flaming Lips and countless others. And if that wasn't enough, his work has been exhibited at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Museum of Modern Art, the Smithsonian and the loooove. Without further ado, please welcome our Chantry. So let's dive right in. When did you discover
10:00
You're an artist? Oh, that's actually a really interesting question. I'm glad that you asked that question.
10:07
When did you discover that I was an artist, I, I've been adamant most of my career that graphic design is not art.
10:16
You know, I think of graphic design is a language form of popular language form. This is not art in the idea that we contemporary in a, in our contemporary world, the way we think of fine art is not what we do for a living. Ours is a collaborative art form. We don't follow our muse, we follow a client, you know, and we speak to the population through this visual language to to get them to involve themselves with the clients desires, you know, we basically fuck with people really bad. That's not what the art world does, you know, with our world takes high concepts and fucks with you, but it's not to them means like that and we're not a conduit, you know? So when people think
11:00
Hire me, they either want an idea, or they want my name. And
11:08
it's really funny. We were talking earlier about how people will take your work and redesign it and stuff like that. My experience now is like when somebody hires me, particularly on a serious corporate business level, they really don't want my thinking. They just want my name attached to the project. They want the crit that I can bring to a project because of my reputation. So what ends up happening is I will design some stuff, they end up looking at it and they take one little piece of something and then they'll redesign it. They're with their staff, and they represent it and want me to put my name on it. And that's what they're actually giving. So they're hiring me not as a designer, but as a meme artist. I discovered I was an artist. Yeah, about two years ago.
11:57
Well, I am no longer a graphic designer.
12:00
people hire me because like Andy Warhol, I'll sign anything for money. That's what it's kind of boiled down to now, people just want my name on it. So I know you discounted on one level or another but you obviously have embraced design as an art form, but from the perspective of a visual communicator, what aspects of your art education via formal or informal Do you feel have impacted your design process and aesthetic history and context influenced me, I was much more influenced by dadas and early surrealists and a lot of the early isms because of their contrary nature.
12:37
Again, against the structure of the the old art society, I was influenced by their thinking and when I was thrown out, like so much, you know, dishwater out into the world to make a living, you know, that is where I found all my inspiration and as time progressed, obviously your work is steeped in
13:00
Northwest culture, namely the Seattle Tacoma music scene of the 80s and 90s. Can you help our listeners understand how this affected you from a design perspective? Well, actually, I affected it from a design perspective. I was around doing what I do and being involved with itself long before it existed. You know, I grew up here. I've been speaking this language locally, my work became their graphic design language and their ideas became my graphic design language. I mean, it I'm old and I was here first, I wasn't here. I wasn't here back when the hippies are the original garage rockers like the Sonics in the wheel. Yeah, but although any specific paradigms or life experiences you can recall that eventually led you to your signature style. Was there a paradigm in your background that led you to ask a question like,
13:51
pose the question again. I was too busy like fucking witches.
13:57
Well, being poor was me.
14:00
Isn't,
14:01
you know, there was one point in my life where I had a job as a garbage man. You know, you learn a lot about the world when you're a garbage man. And I've always been a bit of a garbage kid I I'm utterly fascinated by what people make what people think what people create, how they speak to each other, how they present.
14:24
You know, I worked in a grocery store for a while. That was another garbage job. You know, I
14:31
working garbage Jobs was like, the best education college. Going to college became surviving an obstacle course the thing The only thing I can say the college prepared me for was surviving in a system that was trying to destroy you.
14:48
I learned how to do that in college. And when I went out into the real world and encountered Yeah, that's the way the world works, particularly if you're a graphic designer.
14:58
That's, I know
15:00
How to Survive that. Because I learned that in college by just surviving college you know, when did you realize you have that signature style you're known for today? I i've been like this My whole life okay, even as a kid I had a signature style like this. Yeah. Yeah, even when I was like I remember the very first actual paid graphic design job I ever had was I had a friend who wanted to build guitars for a living. And so he hired me to do a logo based on a parabolic curve, which is a common curve they use and
15:33
engineering things like guitars, and I basically did interlocking psychedelic type for it, you pay me 25 bucks and that's how my career started. I think it was in eighth grade. Very cool. So I know you are an exceedingly humble guy. I also know you foster this misconception of being Qadri Lee. So let us live vicariously through you if only for a fleeting moment. Really, what was it like to be awarded the AI
16:00
ga metal, a ga metal? Let me answer that question how we are doing this because it's like to begin with, you know, my relationship with the New York design scene is is good and bad depending there's been a lot of things about that particular aspect of the design world that I take great offense at, and I really don't like.
16:21
On the other hand, I've got some wonderful friends over there. You know, there was a new management team that came in that tried very specifically to every year pick kind of a culture or designer who they thought should get recognized. So they gave one award to the guy who was the Black Panther designer, which was really cool. And then the next year they gave it to somebody else, and then they gave it to me and then they gave one to Victor Moscoso, one of the great psychedelic poster artists out of the hate. So what what they did is like every year
17:00
ear, they got somebody they thought was an important cultural contributor and gave it to them. And that's how I ended up getting it, not because they liked me, or like my designers, one of the Brotherhood, I didn't even use a fucking grid.
17:17
And they gave it to me because they thought I was an important and unique graphic design voice that should be mentioned. Just the same. You know, that's, that's like the rock that's like the graphic design Hall of Fame that's about as big an award as you can get inside the United States upset of the Presidential Medal, you know.
17:38
And the funny thing is, is that the since they started that in 1920, there's only been about 150 actual medals given out and half of those were for like industry people who hired graphic design, and writers about graphic design. The actual graphic designers on the
18:00
list to a won the award was only about half the list. So that's, that put me into a club of about 75 people in the history of graphic design, who got that award. And when I started figuring that out, I began to realize what an honor that was. I was kind of blown away. So what I did is I went and I took the award, I took the, all the attention, and I gave a little talk in my, in my talk I specifically mentioned, you know, this award, I basically gave my award to all those printers and illustrators and photographers and typesetters out there over the years that made me look like a genius that nobody even knows their names. I mean, you know, this is a collaborative art form. This is not a great man art form, basically all my own bullshit. And then I went home and put the metal on a shelf, and it's dusty. But you know, I've gone other enormous work.
19:00
Awards. I had a one man career retrospective show in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. You know, it was a big show great reviews all this kind of stuff. Not very many graphic designers can make that claim for starters, you know, I you know, I might get myself into Rock and Roll Hall of Fame myself so I'm gonna lose myself as a collection collections all over the world. I've unpublished my works printed in over 500 books, you know, several of the books written or written about me, you know, one of them's in Chinese I have no idea what it says it could say are changing sets an asshole bla bla bla bla, but it's in Chinese and it looks really cool. Yeah.
19:39
So I mean, it's like you know, I I basically accomplished everything I wanted them to professionally looks at your rich.
19:47
So in a way, getting that design award was incredibly soothing. It's like, okay, I pulled this off, and it means nothing.
20:01
It means nothing. It's just, it's just a chunk of metal sitting on a shelf. And you know, it's like nobody outside the industry knows what the fuck it is just like telling you that there's plumbing. I was considered the greatest plumber in the world see that? See? And every goes one plumbing
20:20
it's like that kind of thing. You understand what it is because you're in the field. And it's like anybody outside the field has been on what is it?
20:30
They don't know graphic arts from graphic design from fine art, you know, it's like, it's all one thing to them. So true. And I'm pretty confident I can predict your answer to this. But if you could give any piece of career or life advice that you would like etched on your theoretical Tombstone, what would it be? Ah, I've got an answer for this. carry a gun
20:58
is the only thing that has a gear.
21:00
Team built into it.
21:05
Anything else you want to ask? That is fucked up answer.
21:14
Certainly not what I expected and I have no idea how to tie in the living paradox carrying a gun idea. You know, you got to survive.
21:25
How did you how do you defend yourself against those people anyway, in a more serious note, it's basically the is kind of like that. The I kept saying, follow your muse, Joseph Campbell, you know, basically, do what you enjoy. Because really, that is the only thing
21:48
in my entire life that I value the things I enjoyed, you know, the things I did because I had to, or I felt like I had to or because I have some neurotic fucked up problem in my childhood.
22:00
Those things ultimately become incredibly pointless by the time you're my age, all you remember the good things and the good people and the good events and the good experiences. And that's what you need to cultivate. You know, really don't. If you worry about money every fucking day, your life, you're gonna have nothing when you get to be my age, and it's like I cherish I was talking earlier about how ugly it was watching that grunge scene explode and all those people die.
22:33
Yeah, but boy sure value those people now that they're gone, and they're not there anymore. And I do remember how just fucking interesting it was to be alive in this place at that time. You know, it's like winning that design award. You know, I said, it doesn't have any meaning. No, it has a lot of meaning into how I feel, you know? And that's what's what was the value, all those material things, all those status things.
23:00
All those societal things and that's just pointless bullshit. It means nothing.
23:06
So that's what I mean by carry again.
23:09
We're going to say fuck you, moron. So it's more of a figurative gun than the literal gun. It's a metaphor. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And for those of you who want to learn more about art Chantry, go buy his book, art Chantry speaks Better still, he'll probably sell you some of his overruns of posters. If you hit him up on Facebook.
23:34
Now it's time to talk about something that may or may not have happened in my decades long career, and well, what I learned from it. So what makes work great. We all aspire to do amazing portfolio worthy shit, right? But sometimes something or worse, someone takes the wind out of our sails
23:59
when I first
24:00
began cutting my teeth. I was ever the optimist. In fact, I was so prolific and so inexpensive. Every single client appeared to love what I gave them. Of course, I was still a kid. And they seem to have more reasonable expectations than even I did. Of course they loved it was practically free. Oh, yeah, this was also pre internet days, desktop design, you know, on a computer, it was only a few years old. Anyhow, as time went on, I thought I needed to get a real job. You know, where you have a boss who has a boss, who also has a boss.
24:37
So it turned out my portfolio wasn't actually good enough to get hired at the best agency in town, but it was good enough to get hired at the second best. That rate there began to take the wind out of my sails. Despite the huge win of getting that clutch job prior to graduation.
24:56
It felt huge but
25:00
being turned down for the one I really wanted. Well, that was a pretty significant defeat.
25:07
It was really humbling. Clearly,
25:11
I was too confident. Like I even had the hutzpah to send a cover letter, a resume, and a custom portfolio to pentagram. Yes, that pentagram, the one I mentioned earlier in the show, it turns out, they didn't hire kids who were still in art school either.
25:30
So, for the next 20 years or so, I would work for a boss who had a boss. Eventually, I would have a boss who seemingly didn't have a boss. And well it turns out, even when you own your own company like I do, now, you still have a boss. It's just now become the client. So what's my point?
25:51
Well, it wasn't until I was 25 or so that I realized my work wasn't great. It was really good. I want a lot of local regional national
26:00
Even some international words, but the best work, the work I'm most proud of. That's the work that comes from collaboration. My favorite projects seem to all share this similar common bond. They begin with a fruitful conversation with the client. Then we document the whole thing, sort of like a creative brief, then my fellow designers and I craft a visual language. We share that with the client, they chime in. We might even have a working session where we play together and bring it back to the art department where we finesse it and voila.
26:36
And the best clients are the ones you get to do that with. Well, it's all well and good to have a client blow wind up your skirt all day and gush over how great you are. It's even better when they get invested. So the next time someone tells you, they don't love it, let that be the wind in your sails. get them involved in gauge the critique. This is an opportunity
27:00
Before your design to go from good to great.
27:05
It's closing.
27:08
Well, that takes us to the end of this installment and I certainly hope you enjoyed this episode of Brandon brothers. I know I certainly did. I really appreciate you tuning in. This particular episode was written, edited, produced and hosted by me Doug Berger, music by Andy slagter and studio Etude. Plus a special tip of the hat to my professional partner in crime Simon Jacobsen. Find more details about the show on our website at brancheau live.com. If you enjoyed the show, please share it with your friends and colleagues. And as always, if you didn't, please share it with your family and enemies. Either way, please leave us a review on your favorite podcasting forum. Tell us what you liked or how we can improve by dropping us a line at Hello at brancheau live.com. And if you really want to help, please take the survey at brancheau live.com slash survey so we can convince potential sponsors we're better than we really
28:00
Are you can also find us on patreon@patreon.com slash brand show live. Until next time, branding wishes and marketing dreams.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to our latest installment of branded brothers. My name is Doug Berger and I will be your host during this branding journey. In this episode I'm excited to share with you the latest in brand represses a history lesson, wisdom nuggets, and our Chantry drops by to drop some knowledge bombs. Let's get branding.
0:21
Let's talk about our latest favorite brand refresh Fisher Price. As always, you've probably seen it by now and quite possibly didn't realize it, but just in case you can see it for yourself and our Instagram feed or on our website brand show live.com on a scale of resounding success to epic failure. Was it the good, the bad or the ugly? It's not good. It's fantastic. Emily Oberman of pentagram gave the logo a beautiful update. While it is still comprised of the stylized white logo type encapsulated inside a red scalloped awning.
1:00
feels like its meaning has been lifted even higher. In fact, the bottom edging is now comprised of three circular edges instead of the original four as a nod to the founders, Fisher Price, and shell. How cool is that? The logo type has retained some of its original character as well, which has been accentuated with slightly more emphasized Sara. And to add to its playful nature, the capital letters have been switched out for a lowercase F and P. and the F has a lovely ligature with the tittle of the adjacent eye. I think it's called the title. Anyhow, it's fun to say, but my favorite part the hyphen has been replaced with a semicircle or is it semi circle? Either way, it's emblematic of a youthful smile. It's so sweet. Um, so moving on. Oh, I almost forgot some much needed air around. The logo type has been added just a little bit of time.
2:00
margin really does go a long way.
2:03
It's so sophisticated, yet playful. It's contemporary, yet classic. I give this one a rating of it's fun for the whole family. And of course, since we're all averse to change, how can it be improved? Well, as one might suspect, a brand goes a bit deeper than its logo. And well pentagrams triumph continues with the brand's design system.
2:29
It gets a bit cumbersome and a little too ice cream shop for me with the sub marks and extraneous design elements in the bouncing type face makes sense. I can't say I'm a fan of the undulating baseline with such a graphically precise custom typeface. It's beautiful, but it feels forced and if it feels forced, it probably was. Usually this kind of shit is what happens when someone inserts their opinion when they should just leave it to the professionals nonetheless,
3:00
It's really full of joy. I think the whole thing will make you smile.
3:06
Favorite fonts. So is it an oldie but a goodie or something fresh from the typographic oven? Well, the latest fav is definitely an oldie but a goodie. It's garamond. According to Adobe, the renowned per region printer Claude garamond, was a driving force behind typeface creation during the Renaissance period in the 16th century. His most famous and inspirational typeface was cut early in his career for the French court, specifically King Francis the first and was based on the handwriting of the king's librarian. Angelo purchase you the earliest use of that font was in the production of a series of books by Robert estienne Robert Granton, another very famous influence on typography started as an assistant to garamond most
4:00
modern versions of the gehrmann typeface including the Adobe garamond design base, their italic tight on granton's lettering. I am probably not pronouncing these last names correctly, but
4:14
it's close enough. And since I'm a sucker for both typefaces and haikus, I wrote a couple five seven fives for you.
4:24
Ancient yet modern, this 1500s old style saref still holds up.
4:31
Or maybe you want a little more rhythm with your syllables. 1540s font comes from a typeface savant. A serif Golan. Alright, good times. Thank you for indulging me and of course you can see it for yourself on our Instagram or website Brando live.com. As well as anywhere the Google says you can legally obtain it. Personally. I'm a fan of Robert Slingbox interpretation Adobe garamond which is a
5:00
available through, you guessed it, Adobe fonts.
5:04
History was
5:06
way back in the 1900s, before Adobe Illustrator or even the Mac, or even before we reappropriated, the term branding from ranters, there were the true pioneers of modern graphic design. According to ink magazine, the top four most memorable logos in the US based on a scientific study from 2015 are Nike, apple, McDonald's, and Coca Cola. Which leads us to today's logo history lesson. And if you guess Nike, you're correct. This is a brand of legends. So there was this guy, we'll call him Phil Knight. He owned this company called Blue Ribbon sports. He was also an accounting professor at Portland State University in Portland, Oregon. And as luck would have it, Carolyn Davidson was a graphic design student there. She actually started as a journalism major but switched to design and I kid you not
6:00
she switched to design to fill an empty elective. Anyhow. So Phil Knight, as the legend goes, overheard Carolyn say that she couldn't afford painting supplies. That's when Phil asked her to do some work for him.
6:17
He needed someone to create charts and things along those lines for his meetings. And because that worked out so well for the two of them. She continued to design posters, ads and other collateral for the company.
6:30
And in 1971, which was the same year that Carolyn Davidson graduated, knight and his co founder needed a logo for a new line of running suits that they're getting ready to introduce. They asked Davidson to design a stripe, which is industry lingo for a shoe logo. Specifically, they wanted something that well they that they described as something to do with movement.
6:55
So Davidson worked on her ideas by drawing on a piece of tissue over a day.
7:00
drawing of a shoe. Smart, right? So she showed them five different designs, one of which was the swoosh, which was designed to resemble a wing. And of course hint at Nike, the Greek goddess of victory. Well, since production deadlines were looming Knights settled, yes, settled on the swoosh after rejecting four other designs seriously, when he was asked about the original logo, his original response was, I don't love it, but it'll grow on me. Anyhow, the company paid are 35 bucks, which, if adjusted for inflation would be about $225 in today's money, and, you know, it's actually not that bad for a kid fresh out of college. It's okay. So anyhow, the story has a really sweet ending, right? So in September of 1983, not long after Nike went public, obviously, it had changed its name. By this point, Mr. Knight made quite possibly the most magnanimous of gestures, he hosted a gathering where he bestowed
8:00
Upon Miss Davidson not only chocolate swooshes because who wouldn't eat that up, but also a diamond ring made of gold and engraved with the swoosh? Not bad, but but check this out. He also gave her wait for it. Okay, stop waiting for it an envelope filled with 500 shares yes 500 shares, which is split so many times that today it's worth well over a million dollars.
8:30
Okay, so as if there isn't enough nobility and humility in this story. Miss Davidson is quoted as saying after receiving all of this. This was something rather special for Phil to do because I originally built him and he paid that invoice.
8:47
Seriously, okay, that's great and all but what's even cooler than all of that? Okay, maybe not all of it, but what's cooler than that. The swoosh is all
9:00
that's left of the Nike logo. What a lovely story right?
9:05
Okay, so I know you're probably wondering, do I even like the Nike logo?
9:11
To be honest, I don't know I was ever given the chance to do anything but love it.
9:19
guest is an inadvertent innovator and the ostensible father of visualized grunge. His designs may be described as an amalgamation of low fidelity repurposed imagery, coupled with a manipulation of the arbitrary melded with striking color. His work is most notably been used by Madani the Sonics, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Flaming Lips and countless others. And if that wasn't enough, his work has been exhibited at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Museum of Modern Art, the Smithsonian and the loooove. Without further ado, please welcome our Chantry. So let's dive right in. When did you discover
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You're an artist? Oh, that's actually a really interesting question. I'm glad that you asked that question.
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When did you discover that I was an artist, I, I've been adamant most of my career that graphic design is not art.
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You know, I think of graphic design is a language form of popular language form. This is not art in the idea that we contemporary in a, in our contemporary world, the way we think of fine art is not what we do for a living. Ours is a collaborative art form. We don't follow our muse, we follow a client, you know, and we speak to the population through this visual language to to get them to involve themselves with the clients desires, you know, we basically fuck with people really bad. That's not what the art world does, you know, with our world takes high concepts and fucks with you, but it's not to them means like that and we're not a conduit, you know? So when people think
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Hire me, they either want an idea, or they want my name. And
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it's really funny. We were talking earlier about how people will take your work and redesign it and stuff like that. My experience now is like when somebody hires me, particularly on a serious corporate business level, they really don't want my thinking. They just want my name attached to the project. They want the crit that I can bring to a project because of my reputation. So what ends up happening is I will design some stuff, they end up looking at it and they take one little piece of something and then they'll redesign it. They're with their staff, and they represent it and want me to put my name on it. And that's what they're actually giving. So they're hiring me not as a designer, but as a meme artist. I discovered I was an artist. Yeah, about two years ago.
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Well, I am no longer a graphic designer.
12:00
people hire me because like Andy Warhol, I'll sign anything for money. That's what it's kind of boiled down to now, people just want my name on it. So I know you discounted on one level or another but you obviously have embraced design as an art form, but from the perspective of a visual communicator, what aspects of your art education via formal or informal Do you feel have impacted your design process and aesthetic history and context influenced me, I was much more influenced by dadas and early surrealists and a lot of the early isms because of their contrary nature.
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Again, against the structure of the the old art society, I was influenced by their thinking and when I was thrown out, like so much, you know, dishwater out into the world to make a living, you know, that is where I found all my inspiration and as time progressed, obviously your work is steeped in
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Northwest culture, namely the Seattle Tacoma music scene of the 80s and 90s. Can you help our listeners understand how this affected you from a design perspective? Well, actually, I affected it from a design perspective. I was around doing what I do and being involved with itself long before it existed. You know, I grew up here. I've been speaking this language locally, my work became their graphic design language and their ideas became my graphic design language. I mean, it I'm old and I was here first, I wasn't here. I wasn't here back when the hippies are the original garage rockers like the Sonics in the wheel. Yeah, but although any specific paradigms or life experiences you can recall that eventually led you to your signature style. Was there a paradigm in your background that led you to ask a question like,
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pose the question again. I was too busy like fucking witches.
13:57
Well, being poor was me.
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Isn't,
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you know, there was one point in my life where I had a job as a garbage man. You know, you learn a lot about the world when you're a garbage man. And I've always been a bit of a garbage kid I I'm utterly fascinated by what people make what people think what people create, how they speak to each other, how they present.
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You know, I worked in a grocery store for a while. That was another garbage job. You know, I
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working garbage Jobs was like, the best education college. Going to college became surviving an obstacle course the thing The only thing I can say the college prepared me for was surviving in a system that was trying to destroy you.
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I learned how to do that in college. And when I went out into the real world and encountered Yeah, that's the way the world works, particularly if you're a graphic designer.
14:58
That's, I know
15:00
How to Survive that. Because I learned that in college by just surviving college you know, when did you realize you have that signature style you're known for today? I i've been like this My whole life okay, even as a kid I had a signature style like this. Yeah. Yeah, even when I was like I remember the very first actual paid graphic design job I ever had was I had a friend who wanted to build guitars for a living. And so he hired me to do a logo based on a parabolic curve, which is a common curve they use and
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engineering things like guitars, and I basically did interlocking psychedelic type for it, you pay me 25 bucks and that's how my career started. I think it was in eighth grade. Very cool. So I know you are an exceedingly humble guy. I also know you foster this misconception of being Qadri Lee. So let us live vicariously through you if only for a fleeting moment. Really, what was it like to be awarded the AI
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ga metal, a ga metal? Let me answer that question how we are doing this because it's like to begin with, you know, my relationship with the New York design scene is is good and bad depending there's been a lot of things about that particular aspect of the design world that I take great offense at, and I really don't like.
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On the other hand, I've got some wonderful friends over there. You know, there was a new management team that came in that tried very specifically to every year pick kind of a culture or designer who they thought should get recognized. So they gave one award to the guy who was the Black Panther designer, which was really cool. And then the next year they gave it to somebody else, and then they gave it to me and then they gave one to Victor Moscoso, one of the great psychedelic poster artists out of the hate. So what what they did is like every year
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ear, they got somebody they thought was an important cultural contributor and gave it to them. And that's how I ended up getting it, not because they liked me, or like my designers, one of the Brotherhood, I didn't even use a fucking grid.
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And they gave it to me because they thought I was an important and unique graphic design voice that should be mentioned. Just the same. You know, that's, that's like the rock that's like the graphic design Hall of Fame that's about as big an award as you can get inside the United States upset of the Presidential Medal, you know.
17:38
And the funny thing is, is that the since they started that in 1920, there's only been about 150 actual medals given out and half of those were for like industry people who hired graphic design, and writers about graphic design. The actual graphic designers on the
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list to a won the award was only about half the list. So that's, that put me into a club of about 75 people in the history of graphic design, who got that award. And when I started figuring that out, I began to realize what an honor that was. I was kind of blown away. So what I did is I went and I took the award, I took the, all the attention, and I gave a little talk in my, in my talk I specifically mentioned, you know, this award, I basically gave my award to all those printers and illustrators and photographers and typesetters out there over the years that made me look like a genius that nobody even knows their names. I mean, you know, this is a collaborative art form. This is not a great man art form, basically all my own bullshit. And then I went home and put the metal on a shelf, and it's dusty. But you know, I've gone other enormous work.
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Awards. I had a one man career retrospective show in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. You know, it was a big show great reviews all this kind of stuff. Not very many graphic designers can make that claim for starters, you know, I you know, I might get myself into Rock and Roll Hall of Fame myself so I'm gonna lose myself as a collection collections all over the world. I've unpublished my works printed in over 500 books, you know, several of the books written or written about me, you know, one of them's in Chinese I have no idea what it says it could say are changing sets an asshole bla bla bla bla, but it's in Chinese and it looks really cool. Yeah.
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So I mean, it's like you know, I I basically accomplished everything I wanted them to professionally looks at your rich.
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So in a way, getting that design award was incredibly soothing. It's like, okay, I pulled this off, and it means nothing.
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It means nothing. It's just, it's just a chunk of metal sitting on a shelf. And you know, it's like nobody outside the industry knows what the fuck it is just like telling you that there's plumbing. I was considered the greatest plumber in the world see that? See? And every goes one plumbing
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it's like that kind of thing. You understand what it is because you're in the field. And it's like anybody outside the field has been on what is it?
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They don't know graphic arts from graphic design from fine art, you know, it's like, it's all one thing to them. So true. And I'm pretty confident I can predict your answer to this. But if you could give any piece of career or life advice that you would like etched on your theoretical Tombstone, what would it be? Ah, I've got an answer for this. carry a gun
20:58
is the only thing that has a gear.
21:00
Team built into it.
21:05
Anything else you want to ask? That is fucked up answer.
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Certainly not what I expected and I have no idea how to tie in the living paradox carrying a gun idea. You know, you got to survive.
21:25
How did you how do you defend yourself against those people anyway, in a more serious note, it's basically the is kind of like that. The I kept saying, follow your muse, Joseph Campbell, you know, basically, do what you enjoy. Because really, that is the only thing
21:48
in my entire life that I value the things I enjoyed, you know, the things I did because I had to, or I felt like I had to or because I have some neurotic fucked up problem in my childhood.
22:00
Those things ultimately become incredibly pointless by the time you're my age, all you remember the good things and the good people and the good events and the good experiences. And that's what you need to cultivate. You know, really don't. If you worry about money every fucking day, your life, you're gonna have nothing when you get to be my age, and it's like I cherish I was talking earlier about how ugly it was watching that grunge scene explode and all those people die.
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Yeah, but boy sure value those people now that they're gone, and they're not there anymore. And I do remember how just fucking interesting it was to be alive in this place at that time. You know, it's like winning that design award. You know, I said, it doesn't have any meaning. No, it has a lot of meaning into how I feel, you know? And that's what's what was the value, all those material things, all those status things.
23:00
All those societal things and that's just pointless bullshit. It means nothing.
23:06
So that's what I mean by carry again.
23:09
We're going to say fuck you, moron. So it's more of a figurative gun than the literal gun. It's a metaphor. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And for those of you who want to learn more about art Chantry, go buy his book, art Chantry speaks Better still, he'll probably sell you some of his overruns of posters. If you hit him up on Facebook.
23:34
Now it's time to talk about something that may or may not have happened in my decades long career, and well, what I learned from it. So what makes work great. We all aspire to do amazing portfolio worthy shit, right? But sometimes something or worse, someone takes the wind out of our sails
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when I first
24:00
began cutting my teeth. I was ever the optimist. In fact, I was so prolific and so inexpensive. Every single client appeared to love what I gave them. Of course, I was still a kid. And they seem to have more reasonable expectations than even I did. Of course they loved it was practically free. Oh, yeah, this was also pre internet days, desktop design, you know, on a computer, it was only a few years old. Anyhow, as time went on, I thought I needed to get a real job. You know, where you have a boss who has a boss, who also has a boss.
24:37
So it turned out my portfolio wasn't actually good enough to get hired at the best agency in town, but it was good enough to get hired at the second best. That rate there began to take the wind out of my sails. Despite the huge win of getting that clutch job prior to graduation.
24:56
It felt huge but
25:00
being turned down for the one I really wanted. Well, that was a pretty significant defeat.
25:07
It was really humbling. Clearly,
25:11
I was too confident. Like I even had the hutzpah to send a cover letter, a resume, and a custom portfolio to pentagram. Yes, that pentagram, the one I mentioned earlier in the show, it turns out, they didn't hire kids who were still in art school either.
25:30
So, for the next 20 years or so, I would work for a boss who had a boss. Eventually, I would have a boss who seemingly didn't have a boss. And well it turns out, even when you own your own company like I do, now, you still have a boss. It's just now become the client. So what's my point?
25:51
Well, it wasn't until I was 25 or so that I realized my work wasn't great. It was really good. I want a lot of local regional national
26:00
Even some international words, but the best work, the work I'm most proud of. That's the work that comes from collaboration. My favorite projects seem to all share this similar common bond. They begin with a fruitful conversation with the client. Then we document the whole thing, sort of like a creative brief, then my fellow designers and I craft a visual language. We share that with the client, they chime in. We might even have a working session where we play together and bring it back to the art department where we finesse it and voila.
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And the best clients are the ones you get to do that with. Well, it's all well and good to have a client blow wind up your skirt all day and gush over how great you are. It's even better when they get invested. So the next time someone tells you, they don't love it, let that be the wind in your sails. get them involved in gauge the critique. This is an opportunity
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Before your design to go from good to great.
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It's closing.
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Well, that takes us to the end of this installment and I certainly hope you enjoyed this episode of Brandon brothers. I know I certainly did. I really appreciate you tuning in. This particular episode was written, edited, produced and hosted by me Doug Berger, music by Andy slagter and studio Etude. Plus a special tip of the hat to my professional partner in crime Simon Jacobsen. Find more details about the show on our website at brancheau live.com. If you enjoyed the show, please share it with your friends and colleagues. And as always, if you didn't, please share it with your family and enemies. Either way, please leave us a review on your favorite podcasting forum. Tell us what you liked or how we can improve by dropping us a line at Hello at brancheau live.com. And if you really want to help, please take the survey at brancheau live.com slash survey so we can convince potential sponsors we're better than we really
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Are you can also find us on patreon@patreon.com slash brand show live. Until next time, branding wishes and marketing dreams.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai