It's Something Wonderful

It’s time for Brand of Brothers! Join your host, Doug Berger, as he takes on the role of tour guide through this branding expedition. He's chuffed to bits to share with you the latest in brand refreshes, a history lesson, wisdom nuggets, along with his interview with Davar Azarbeygui. Let's get branding! 

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This episode is sponsored in part by Adobe XD how designers UX, learn more@adobe.com slash XD It's time for brand new brothers. My name is Doug Berger and I will be your tour guide through this branding expedition. I'm chuffed to bits to share with you the latest and brand refreshes a history lesson wisdom nuggets and our guest, Davad Azarbeygui bestows some insights. Let's get branding. Let's talk about our latest favorite brand refresh Intel unveiled at the beginning of September 2020. To coincide with the launch event of a collaborative hardware development effort. A sleeker, more dynamic and elegant visual language emerged along with Intel Evo Intel's 11th generation processor. As always, you can see the branding goodness for yourselves by checking out our Instagram feed at brancheau live or on our website brancheau live.com. On a scale of resounding success to epic failure. Was it the good, the bad, or the ugly? So yeah, it's a pretty good. But before we dive in, how about we hop in our branding Time Machine and talk about how we even got here, the original Intel visual identity appeared back in 1968. Despite being a bit wonky, it had a lengthy 38 year lifespan, assuming my math is correct, or the maths for our British friends. Okay. Anyhow, moving on. Intel was founded on July 18 1968, by Robert Noyce, Gordon Moore and Andre Grove. The original logo was created by the founders, Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore in the same year. The original logo, like the latest permutation was pure logo type. It was basically typeset in a pure, bold sans serif typeface in all lowercase, but the letter E was dropped below the baseline. So the tail that curved out from the T became the crossbar of the letter E, which would align with the base of the letter L. Of course, this is pre desktop publishing days. So it was precision cut and completely custom. We don't know who actually did it. But it's probably safe to assume the founders directed the whole thing. I imagine it would have been more pristinely perfect. Have they left it to a professional typographer? But I digress. The connection of the T and l are allegedly mental resemble computer circuitry. Since I'm not well versed in Computer Engineering, I really wouldn't know. The original trademark blew happens around this time as well. Fast forward to 1991 when we are introduced to the Intel Inside campaign, which would eventually lead to the logo being uniformly adjusted company wide to reflect this by 2006. I'll explain. This Intel Inside campaign has a kind of handcut looking vibe with its custom typeface. The big deal about this is it's encapsulating swoosh. We're still sticking with blue, but it's become a tad lighter and a little less saturated. We still have our original logo, but we have this extra emblem in 2006. Though they get unified the type and the swoosh, we get a crisp, stylized, albeit dated sans serif, and the swoosh is no longer wrapping around the type in its entirety. Instead, it's brought in so tight that it's diagonally bisected by the letter forms in the upper left by the title or the dot and the letter I and the stem of the letter L. Lest we forget, we also get a new slogan, leap ahead. It all works. Of course, you can see this in our Instagram feed at branch alive and on our website branch are live.com. And once again, we fast forward almost another decade and a half to today. The logo is cleaner than ever. The letter forms are a digitally precise, semi bold sans serif, with the with with like everything perfectly baseline aligned. I would even go so far as to say it reflects something I often aspire to exhibit in my own designs, and aesthetic that looks like it was potentially designed decades ago, or decades into the future, the only design element has become the original square dot adorning the letter I but only when standing by itself. In other words, if the logo type appears with a lock up, like Intel Inside, for example, or subordinated when we see Intel Evo like a product. Again, like Core i three, the logo type will be one color, including that square dot but when presented on its own, the squared dot gets emphasized with a contrast in color or shade. Why? Well, it's meant to represent the company's history of manufacturing semiconductors and microchips. Pretty cool. Well, obviously rebrands like this don't happen overnight. This has been a long time coming and an effort to move beyond the Intel Inside slogan. Plus the reveal in the midst of a pandemic posed interesting obstacles. We're not going to get into right now, the brand repositioning wasn't just spurred by need. It was inspired by a quote from the company's co founder Robert Noyce. Don't be encumbered by history go off and do something wonderful. Since this was ostensibly the ethos that fueled the rebrand, it should come as no surprise, their new positioning statement or tagline is, do something wonderful. Oh, the color. In the late 60s, we had a dark saturated blue. In the 90s, we got a muted lighter blue. Right. Now, we not only have a wide ranging palette of blues, we also get brighter colors like orange and yellow. Okay, this seems really weird, right? But it actually makes a lot of sense. colors in different cultures mean different things. And Intel is a global brand. Plus, they happen to be major sponsors of the upcoming Olympics in Japan. In other words, don't be surprised if you see a lot of red with Intel's marketing. Okay, so I'm also a bit of a technophile, which means Intel has been on my radar for as long as I care to remember, like, I don't remember it not being the thing. But they became gargantuan only a couple decades ago. And for me, that's not my whole life. And they became a ubiquitous household brand, when we were inundated with the whole Intel Inside campaign, along with a sonic logo that I think I mentioned earlier. Sadly, that Sonic logo is also going the way of the dodo. Evidently, there's a new sound. And I gotta tell you, I'm really excited to hear their brand in addition to seeing it in its entirety. So let's talk about ratings. I give it a rating of it's something wonderful. And of course, since we are all averse to change, how can it be improved? That's a damn fine question. I really need to stop finding logos that are so close to perfection. Again, I'm really hard pressed to find something to fix. I mean, this was expertly crafted. And it's so simple, there's very little to even tear apart. So please forgive me for nitpicking. But I guess it's what I'm supposed to do here. So in the off chance, someone handed me the letter forms to revise, I might try to make some optical adjustments beginning with the turtle, you know, that dot above the stem of the letter I. So my my big issue here is I believe it's a shit or get off the pot kind of moment. So right now, it's just not like perfectly sized with the stem, it actually looks marginally wider, like less than a hair wider. Now, technically speaking, mechanically speaking, it may not be I did not get in on a microscopic level to see if I'm right or wrong. It's it's about optics, then there's where the shoulder or curve of the N meets the stem of the N, or the left hand vertical side of this particular letter form, it looks like it could be beefed up ever so slightly, to give a more uniform shape to match the weight of the other letters. As far as the letter T is concerned, I think it's almost perfect, I would actually very slightly taper where the bar meets the ascender and stem to reduce the weight of the intersection. I do however love the bit of legacy that it references the previous logos letter form, so I might just leave that one alone. Then there's the letter E, which is so perfectly round, it feels a little too wide in relation to the other letters for this particular application. I think I would have used the E from the original logo for yet another historical nod. And lastly, the kerning they clearly used math and I can't stress this enough if it doesn't look right. Fuck math. Okay, sorry. So the visual space around each letter should visually or optically appear the same and balanced. The negative space in my exceedingly humble opinion is as important if not more so than the letters themselves. Tracking out the letters just a little bit could make this logo type near perfection. And despite my critique, if it's not clear how I feel about this refresh, I really do like it. I think they finally found something that can stand the test of time and not find itself looking outdated even several decades from now. Favorite fonts So is it an oldie but a goodie or something fresh from the typographic oven? Well, this one is an oldie and better than a goodie, it's caslon. According to Wikipedia, and a handful of other places on the interwebs caslon is the name given a typefaces designed by William castle on the first of England, who happened to live from 1692 until 1766. caslon began his career as an apprentice engraver of ornamental designs on firearms and other metal work, he would go on to become an engraver of type, who worked in the tradition of what is now called Old Style saref letter design. This particular style revolves around the idea of creating relatively organic structures resembling that of handwriting, specifically with a pen. But before caslon established a tradition of engraving type in London, he was hired by prominent London printers to carve steel punches for printing, this particular process is called punch hitting, and it is exceedingly complicated. In fact, many processes would be learned in secret, and only passed on within families. So these typestyles that caslon introduced, which they were not common at all, they were influenced by the Dutch Baroque typefaces popular at that particular point in time, his typefaces established a strong reputation for their quality and attractive appearance, suitable for extended passages of text. Kind of a big deal. It's quite fascinating to note caslon emerged as one of the top typographic artists in all of Europe. He was basically a fucking rock star in the world of typography. In the like, early 1700s. It's nuts. But anyhow, styles come and go, so too did cast bonds type styles, they fell out of favor for other typefaces you may have heard of like Baskerville, and the donee, which would be adopted by and named for budoni. Well, despite no longer being invoked, caslon remained in business and began to sell alternative and variable type designs, some cut by his son, William castle on the second. Interestingly enough, his grandson William castle, on the third would actually go on to establish a competing foundry. Anyhow calphalon his son castle on the first and the second, so senior and junior, I guess. They maintained a strong reputation within the printing community, and after castle on the first died, he then received the distinction of being the great chief and father of English type, well caslon the typeface regularly experiences design, renaissances and reinventions even by hw caslon and sons, a foundry from the late 19th century. My personal favorite, though, is Adobe caslon, which was designed by Carol Twombly, whom you can also think for Trajan. She was a designer for Adobe from 1988 to 1999. She referenced specimen pages from the 1730s and the 1770s. And she also added features now standard with high quality typefaces like small caps and old style figures. These were not a thing of, I guess you could say they weren't de rigueur in 1990. And since then, Matthew Carter, who we can think for typefaces like Georgia, Tahoma and Verdana. He also designed big caslon, just a couple years later in 1994. And who did Carter design big caslon for If you guessed caslon foundry, you get bonus points. In case you haven't figured it out this guy, Matthew Carter, he is essentially a modern day, typographic Rockstar. This guy is effectively responsible for fundamental visual representations of most typeset words you see today. In fact, he has the dubious distinction of being quote unquote, the most widely read man in the world as suggested in a New Yorker profile. Oh, I guess I kind of fell down a typographic rabbit hole. I'm sorry about that. Oh, wait, you know what time it is. It's Haiku review time. All right. So here we go. First one old style serif a typographic sheriff. fonts Medley riff. I give that maybe? Seven out of 10. Anyhow, the next one, Ben Franklin some more 1700s do Jor No need to say more? I'm sorry. I just can't help myself. I think I'm addicted to typographic 575 but more importantly, you can see the typeface for yourself on our Instagram at Rancho live or on our website. brancheau live.com. Of course. You can download it where you legally acquire your typefaces. Since I'm a bit partial to the Adobe flavor, I highly suggest grabbing it over@fonts.adobe.com way back in the 1900s, before Adobe Illustrator or even the Mac, or even before we reappropriated, the term branding from ranchers, there were the true pioneers of modern graphic design. And one of my favorite logo evolutions is Starbucks. So while I don't particularly find the design quality itself, nor the rendering quite compelling, the story and the transformation has been rather close to perfection. So let's start from the beginning, shall we? When we think of the Starbucks logo, we immediately envision a close up of a two tailed mermaid with an oversized crown pop with a five pointed star but but why? Well, in 1962 Gordon Bowker, I believe that's how his name is pronounced. A college dropout from Seattle discovered his love of coffee while on holiday in Italy. Less than a decade later, bokor would convince his roommates Jerry Baldwin and Zeb Segal to start what would become the world's largest coffee brand. The company was evidently destined to be named after a character from Herman Melville's Moby Dick. In fact, folker wanted to call it by the name of Captain Ahab ship, but they opted to name it after something far more calm. The first mate Starbuck, because their marketing partner rightly so thought that that was the best option. I mean, could you imagine getting your coffee from Captain boomers? Anyhow? So Mind you, this coffee concept is steeped in the idea of of like a nautical theme, if you will, I mean, Seattle, after all, is a port town. So they they have the name now they need a visual identity, right? Well, their image began with what would later become something rather controversial. I use this term very loosely, because it was basically taken from an existing illustration. The so called controversial aspects are a bit wide ranging and and they're kind of far fetched if you ask me. So first of all, you have these theorists calling it a symbol of the Illuminati or a Zionist plot. Uh huh. Secondly, you have the overly pedantic, noting they that the founders fucked up. When they said it was a Norse woodcut. Frankly, they were corrected and told that it was Nordic. Seriously, who fucking cares? But if that's not enough, it turns out it's actually Germanic. So no surprise, the pseudo intellectuals were wrong. And lastly, people complained, the twin tailed mermaid was likely that of an inland spring made, as opposed to an actual mermaid. Holy cow people. Seattle is between Lake Washington and Puget Sound. So maybe they didn't fuck up. After all, maybe this accident turned out to be for the best. Okay, I am so sorry for my rant. And since I'm obviously not one for censorship, the logos history goes a bit further to pacify the natives. In case you're not familiar with the original Starbucks logo, this twin tailed mermaid is topless. That's right. It has boobies. Oh, no. Well, for some crazy reason people were up in arms over this. I mean, the whole point was to reflect the lore of coffee. And yes, I'm rolling my eyes. Well, lucky for the outspoken produce types, the logo needed to be realist rated anyway, so it could be enlarged enough to be emblazoned on the sides of delivery trucks. And thus, the contemporary version of the illustration was born with a new hairstyle for improved modesty, and a simplified and modernized design style that we still see today. It's been adopted for the image that stands on its own, very similar to like what Nike has done where they've dropped the logo type. And so it's just become its own icon, if you will, so works really well in that context. And to quickly wrap up the story. Well, sort of the guys who founded the company would sell their shares to Howard Schultz, the salesman who would grow Starbucks to epic proportions, making its name ubiquitously synonymous with coffee. As for the founders, they would go on to have a stake in Pete's coffee now part of a megalithic holdings company responsible for brands like mighty leaf tea and Jimmy to suffice it to say things turned out pretty well for all of them. Now, the guys are on boards of directors serve as advisors. I think it's Jerry Baldwin, who now owns a California inured and Zeb Segal is even a motivational speaker. But back to the brand itself, I think this is where I'm supposed to offer my critique. I really missed the term of the original logo I I actually think it's worlds above the current incarnation. Although perhaps not as iconic. With the latest permutation. I don't feel like the story is missing per se. It just became really sterile and trite from a technical perspective, the size and scale of the elements. It just feels off for me the hair is weird. The curves are not as smooth as I would prefer, I think some minor adjustments to the whole thing could could fix it without most people even ever noticing. And and another thing, there's this ginormous crown. Why is it so fucking disproportionately large? I just don't get it. I honestly had never noticed how terrible the logo actually is, until I was making a parody version of it one day. But clearly, if you see something enough, even bad design becomes acceptable. I don't mean to shit all over the logo. But frankly, I think it's time they hired a professional to fix it. I'm pretty sure they can afford it at this point. Well, let me put it this way. I certainly look forward to highlighting it as one of my favorite brand refreshes in the very near future. We have a couple good ones and a bit of a critique. So first, the critique. Monica asks, Why did you keep calling the leaf on the Apple logo? A stem? It's clearly a leaf. Well, Monica, maybe in a logo, those kinds of elements are called stems. Okay, that's not true. You're clearly right. I and it's clearly a leaf. I have no idea why my brain wanted to call it a stem. Alex writes, what is the most important branding lesson you've learned? So this question gave me pause. The most important branding lesson I think I've ever learned applies universally to companies and individuals alike. And that's be authentic. Try to know who you are and project that both verbally and visually. By being authentic, everything just falls into place. From integrity to distinctives. You know, the things that make you unique, it becomes impossible for your identity to be called in to question when you are true to yourself. And the last question about branding comes from us from Ian, although it might be pronounced ion so my apologies. quick side note. when submitting your questions, please spell your name out phonetically. Okay. The question is, how do I best determine what typeface to use when designing the logo? First, I must admit I edited their question. Second, I don't think there is a one size fits all approach. And third, I'm still going to try to answer the question by offering an abridged explanation of my process. I began or I should say I begin all client relationships by understanding a few key ingredients. What are their goals and objectives? Who are their audiences? And what tone is best to project? There are more but I'm going to spare you the details. So once I have an understanding of what we're attempting to communicate, this helps to begin determining typography. But before we start designing, we should look at what similarly positioned competition does, and analyze how we can both fit in yet simultaneously stand taller, we have to ask ourselves questions like is this a classic brand? Or is it contemporary? Are we trendy? These types of questions will inform our decision making process? If there was an easy answer to this, I think all logos will probably be made with Helvetica. And I certainly do love a well current Helvetica logo type. But like for everything, including Helvetica, there's a time and a place. I feel like I didn't really answer the question. I also feel like there really isn't a finite response. It's almost like asking how to get somewhere without knowing where you're going. Once you establish your destination, Then, and only then you can really begin to chart your path. Orientation Iranian immigrants in London, England, our guest grew up in Paris, France and came of age in the United States earning his MFA from Pratt. As Polish share was revolutionizing graphic design and David Carson was turning graphic design on its head. He was in the trenches experiencing firsthand a 20th century Renaissance while he witnessed bring into noise bringing the funk and Reagan bridge new paradigms. So to date he experienced the technology for our industry make dramatic shifts. his skill and talent rapidly elevated him through the ranks of the most prestigious agencies on Madison Avenue. Ever the Cosmopolitan he traveled halfway around the world for his design career. Decades later, he found himself back in the United States working for massive branding houses. And today, he teaches at one of the top design schools in the nation and runs his own firm. Without further ado, here's my interview with Davar Azarbeygui. Hi, Doug, Hey, how are you? Good. Hope you see me. You're good video. I can see you. And it looks like recording started automatically and everything. How beautiful is that? I know. Don't you love technology? It's great when it works. So do you want to dive right into the interview? Sure. Absolutely. At what point in your life? Did you realize that you were creative? And how did you come to that realization? Well, as I was, I went to New York to become an art director. And I was kind of working in a printing shop as well as kind of studying graphic design at Pratt Institute. And during but like was there was there a point in your childhood, for example, that you recognize that you were creative that you wanted to make things? Yeah, I mean, as a high school student, I was always I was a good Illustrator. So I was doing great graphics, basically. And the best way to do that is I was copying album cover. So at that time, I was I mean, I still am a big fan of Queen. So I was kind of looking at their album cover designing their logo, just by hand just to kind of uncover and full, you know, I had a set of calligraph pens, and I was kind of, you know, just copying I did, I was pretty much using illustrator before even illustrator was invented. So it's kind of like, just by hand on doing graphic elements, I want to do see how far that would go. And that was kind of my high school design. And what's interesting is like, I would go into art class, and everybody would do beautiful paintings or finger paint or whatever painting they were doing. I somehow ended up doing architecture and very detailed graphic building graphic cars, you know, graphic logos by hand on they had like architecture ruler, pens kind of rough trying stuff. And I had bought a my uncle had bought me a set. And I was kind of using those in our class, while everybody else's assignment was something completely different. My assignment was pure illustration and graphics. Cool. So do you think that discovery like in high school, being creative changed your outlook on what you would do professionally, and how you perceived yourself and the personal image that you projected? In other words, when you were in high school? Did you own the identity of being an artist? And did you see that as having an impact on studying architecture? Yeah, it did. Because at the same time, a lot of my illustrations that I was doing in school wore renderings of buildings, whether it was a facade, whether it was a 2d or 3d focal point kind of thing. And black and white, I was doing a lot of those. And at certain point, my art art teacher kind of gave up, even supervisions are like, while he wants to become an architect, starting today, I'm not gonna teach him art when he's doing renderings and 3d what I mean in my hand and marker pens, so what's the point? Right, and, and speaking of teachers and instructors, so during your educational Safari, you seem to have come to a crossroads, if you will, where you are presented with having to decide between being an architect or being a designer? How did you get to that point? How did you choose to be a designer? What What were the factors that made that a reality for you? The factors were basically there was a much more deeper knowledge of design. Whereas, you know, I have an uncle who's a pretty well known established architect, and he kind of broke it to me, very gently he goes, you're going to be doing this much design, and this much blueprint till you're blue in the face, and you know, engineering, mathematics and all that, but my mind and the next liqueur, whoo, CA, or the next one. I lived in South of France. So my architectural gurus at that time, people who influenced me wore blue korvia visit war people like the fashion designer PR card app. And I used to see him where I used to live, and we used to sit and chat. And he used to tell me and and this is like a huge fashion designer of the 70s and 60s. And he used to just sit down next to me and do sketches and I'm like, why do you? How do you come up with ideas and he told me, he goes, even when I'm on the toilet, I'm always sketching. I'm sketching, 24 hours, seven days a week, sketching, sketching, sketching. Now that time he was advanced. He was assignments. So it was interesting to see this creative process that follows you 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And it's a great transformation of what you have visually into, you know, making it coming to reality. So, you then went to art school, tell me about that art school experience? Well, art school in terms of college or private Institute, in terms of prep? prep? Yeah. So that was kind of one of those things where, okay, I'm going to go to New York, but I need to finish my studies, I need to decide what am I going to do in New York, I'm not just going to show up and, you know, try to get a job I want to really dive into that was the early 90s, into what graphic design is, how to learn it, the influences of that time that were going on were incredibly, you know, the Polish errs, were putting posters of David Carson was coming up with the whole design movement. And that kind of shook everybody in school. And it was interesting, because you were seeing that happen real time without really knowing what are the effects? What are the ripple effects of these great designers in the design world? And did you find seeing stuff like Polish shares, bringing the noise, bringing the funk or seeing David Carson's Reagan? Did you see that having an impact on your personal aesthetic? Yeah, I definitely did. They really shaped me, their process shaped me, because at the printing shop, again, that I was working, we would have to run errands. And you know, it was in the Flatiron District right across from David Carson's office. So you would run errands, and you would knock on the door of, you know, the Carson, at that time, the one was a ray gun magazine shop, you'd walk in, and you'd hear some guys screaming and throwing paper around, and you have the delivery of a print. And that entire world fascinated me, it was really, really interesting. But at the same time, you know, I would have real art, I mean designers, graphic logo designers of the 90s, from the landour days, who would come and you know, borrow laptops and Mac tops for, you know, rent them for the day, and do endless designs of logo and branding. So I would see real time, you know, people from widening Kennedy land, or come into our printing shop, and have stuff printed because they didn't have good printers or really glossy, cool printers at their offices. So they would come in, you know, kind of print their stuff there. And I would always, you know, a couple of prints, they would say, No, this is good, let's do it. Again, I would put everything aside, I would secretly hold on to those gems, because there was something fascinating for me in terms of the process, seeing them, redo logos over and over and over again, whether it was an illustrator, doing it by hand and then bringing into Illustrator, then putting it in a presentation and then making sense of it. So it was very mind opening, at the same time studying but also working right in the hobby, say, the middle of the whole design world that was going on. sure you've had an amazing physical journey, like actually going and living in a variety of places, obviously, you know, you you've even in the earlier part of your life, right, like you were, as you had mentioned, you were born in, in Europe, and and you lived in Paris, and you you made your way to the US. And then you're you're working in New York City, having an amazing career there. And then opportunities open themselves up for you. So tell me about your your travels and how it affected you. Not just personally but I'd love to know that as well. But as a designer, like how how did it affect your How did it impact your awareness? And and do you feel that that it expanded your your visual vocabulary? Yep. I truly believe design is a universal language. We should be culturally enriching ourselves by whether it's by traveling, whether it's by researching or whether by just, you know, going to city like New York or going to California and feeling and at the same time experiencing different cultural backgrounds. That's at the end of the day. It's extremely fruitful. It's fantastic for your imagination. It's great for your creative juices flowing because as I mentioned, after New York, I was hired by bbdo and Dubai to go there as a head of design of a department that was part of their bigger advertising firm. So I was like, you know what it looks like at that time. Also, it was Dubai was like the center of the world. It was like the new Las Vegas or New York and the kind of against, you know, design that was going on there was extremely opulent. There was a lot of different graphic designers from England and Australia. Were getting hired to go there and they're getting paid a lot of money young people who would just end up I saw the agencies like the land doors and brand union were opening small shops there within other advertising agency. So I saw this as an opportunity that I could not not take, and went there with my family. And we kind of settled there. And that was an you know, the cultural diversity was extremely enriching, it was not only enriching, but it was fantastic. It's like you take it in, you learn as much as you can you look at the cultural diversity, you can see different ways of people who talk about design or see design. And there was a bigger appreciation of design than some of the, I would say, people in New York, you know, for them design was very functional was all about the money, where when you go to a place like the Middle East, or at least have, you know, the kind of country and environment that was their design was much more of a beauty product, you know, it was really about the aesthetics, not about the business. And in that time, could you see how your aesthetics how your designs shifted? Yep, they shifted in much more of looking at branding and design as something that's beautiful, rather than functional. So there has to be a functional component to it. But you have to do beautiful design, you have to put design out there that the people want to gravitate to want to buy one to interact with one to, you know, go out there and know more about instead of just being a brand that sells and there's $1 sign behind it. Like I think most of the brands in the United States, where there's a monetary value placed against that brand, in the Middle East, and also in Europe is just much more beauty focus, much more design focus rather than financial focus. Sure. And then, as time went on, you found yourself back in the United States, how did that happen? So um, again, unfortunately, there was a crash in 2008 with a real estate and a lot of our clients over there were real estate clients. And suddenly they dried up like oil, you know, oil or water and oil that dried up. The economy, again, caught up to the, I would say the industry. And I was kind of like, okay, we need to go back to the States, you know, was a time where branding was still really popular around 2008 2009. You know, there was a flourish of new brand initiatives, especially packaging design initiative. And I had when I was in New York, I was my last agency that I was working for hours as a CD, working on kreston, or B. So I had a connection with Cincinnati, I used to come here at least once a week for meetings with PNG. And I had kind of experience the city of Cincinnati. And I found that extremely beautiful and nice. And kind of laid back. You know, it's a big shift from New York, Dubai to Ohio, but it was a shift. And you know, I have kids, so I thought, you know, they might enjoy it. I mean, we've been in the Middle East for nearly four years. But at the same time, they're American, they were born here, they're fully American. So I kind of say, okay, they're growing up, and I'm babies anymore. They need to experience their American life and much more of a direct well, and that's when the opportunity with an agency or call lpk came about they offered me a job here with compensations moving and everything. And I said, Yeah, let's go see how it is here. Then you hung out there for a few years. I'm still here. With with lpk, though. No, no, no. lpk Yeah. So is this an abbey? Right? Yeah, without BK anymore. So you hung out with lpk for a couple of years. And then you did something crazy. I did to take a giant leap from megalithic design houses to start your own thing. So the first question is, why would you do that? I think I know from personal experience, but I'm gonna I'm gonna defer to you on this one. And how has this changed? how you create and and not just how has it changed how you create, but I also want to know what this has done to your process and what your processes like. So first, tell me why why did you start your own thing? Well, it was one of those challenges was I set for myself in terms of Okay, I've been to the agency, you know, from New York to all the way 12 began Interbrand I was in the agency world. And the formation is kind of like the master's degree of formation that you go through there is great, you learn a lot, but now it's like, let's put it into practice. Let's open our own shop, and start trying to at least get clients kind of put the business side as part of the mix, learn about the business side of design. And the best way to do that is really by starting your own shop by starting your freelance shop and start learning how much they charge people. I mean, I'm always you're kind of always when you're working on it. You don't see prices, you don't see how much it costs. You just know timesheets, and you understand and see, you know, there's a project, you don't know how much to put in for the overall scope of the project. So here as a freelancer, as well, as an independent freelancer, you start putting those things together, you start figuring it out, how do you figure it out? I figured it out that just you know, watching people like crystal, his video was really, the one way says how much you know, everybody, millions of people think crystals, how much should you charge for a logo. And that was an incredibly, I would say, I would give props to him. Because that was an awakening, it's like, wow, I'm not charging enough. You know, I'm providing more than just a branding and a logo, I'm providing a service, I'm providing a service that can last beyond the design aspect of it before me during and after. And I should charge more, you know, I should charge more not because of I have means and paying bills and all that. But I should charge more, because there is a real value in providing design. And once you put out, put yourself out there, the social media, especially take advantage of it, take advantage of promoting yourself, take advantage of being on Instagram, putting your work up there take advantage of going on LinkedIn and talking about design or posting other designs that you feel are good design and spread that out. Because you'll find out that a lot of people don't know what good design is. And they are still like, Is it a logo? And you still have that? You know, the same question, what is well,