In this episode, Kaili kicks off a new season by interviewing actors Sharon Muthu and Noshir Dalal. These two have a roster of credits in video games and movies and TV shows that is so long, it's kind of hard to know what to name first. So to list just a few: Sharon plays Dr. Bellum in Netflix's Carmen Sandiego. She plays Agent Scheherazade in Agents of Mayhem and Karyna in Diablo III. Sharon is also an ambassador with The Dark is Beautiful campaign. Noshir plays Charles Smith in Red Dead Redemption 2, Varko Grey in the new Star Wars: Squadrons, and has roles in Gears Tactics, in Call of Duty, in Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, and so many more. Kaili, Sharon, and Noshir talk about their acting careers, representation in the media, how acting may have literally saved Noshir's life and so much more.
To stay updated on their careers, their puppy Nala, and Sharon’s latest culinary adventures, you can follow Noshir & Sharon on social media:
Instagram: @sharonmuthu and @noshirdalal
Twitter: @sharonmuthu and @noshirdalal
Noshir is also very active on Reddit, and you can search his name listed under: u/noshirdalal. For more info on Noshir as an actor, please feel free to check out his website at: www.NoshirDalal.com
Be sure to vote in the*gameHERs Awards: https://thegamehers.com/vote
Check out a transcript of this episode here.
In this episode, Kaili kicks off a new season by interviewing actors Sharon Muthu and Noshir Dalal. These two have a roster of credits in video games and movies and TV shows that is so long, it's kind of hard to know what to name first. So to list just a few: Sharon plays Dr. Bellum in Netflix's Carmen Sandiego. She plays Agent Scheherazade in Agents of Mayhem and Karyna in Diablo III. Sharon is also an ambassador with The Dark is Beautiful campaign. Noshir plays Charles Smith in Red Dead Redemption 2, Varko Grey in the new Star Wars: Squadrons, and has roles in Gears Tactics, in Call of Duty, in Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, and so many more. Kaili, Sharon, and Noshir talk about their acting careers, representation in the media, how acting may have literally saved Noshir's life and so much more.
To stay updated on their careers, their puppy Nala, and Sharon’s latest culinary adventures, you can follow Noshir & Sharon on social media:
Instagram: @sharonmuthu and @noshirdalal
Twitter: @sharonmuthu and @noshirdalal
Noshir is also very active on Reddit, and you can search his name listed under: u/noshirdalal. For more info on Noshir as an actor, please feel free to check out his website at: www.NoshirDalal.com
Be sure to vote in the*gameHERs Awards: https://thegamehers.com/vote
Check out a transcript of this episode here.
TRANSCRIPTS ARE GENERATED USING A COMBINATION OF SPEECH RECOGNITION SOFTWARE AND HUMAN TRANSCRIBERS, AND MAY CONTAIN ERRORS. PLEASE CHECK THE CORRESPONDING AUDIO BEFORE QUOTING IN PRINT.
Sharon Muthu [00:00:00] I hope society will eventually let go of these like unnatural toxic standards and just let people be the color they are and the age they are and the gender they are. Just just celebrate diversity.
Verta Maloney, thegameHERs [00:00:20] Welcome to Let's Play by the*gameHERs, a podcast hosted by actress Kaili Vernoff. Fans know Kaili best as the fiery Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2 and Miranda Cowan in GTA V. Our series features some of the most informed and exciting people in the gaming industry today. Kaili and her guests discuss careers, gaming, and so much more. If you like what you hear be sure to check out thegamehers.com website to hear exclusive bonus material from each of our guests.
Kaili Vernoff [00:00:52] Hey, everybody. I am so excited to welcome you to season two of the Let's Play podcast. And for our very first interview, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with my friends, the wildly talented Sharon Muthu and Noshir Dalal. These two have a roster of credits in video games and movies and TV shows that is so long, it's kind of hard to know what to name first. So to list just a few: Sharon plays Dr. Bellum in Netflix's Carmen Sandiego. She plays Agent Scheherazade in Agents of Mayhem and Karyna in Diablo III. Sharon is also an ambassador with The Dark is Beautiful campaign. Noshir plays Charles Smith in a game you may know called Red Dead Redemption 2. He plays Varko Grey in the new Star Wars: Squadrons and Noshir has roles in Gears Tactics in Call of Duty in Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice and so many more. We sat down and talked about their acting careers, representation in the media, how acting may have literally saved Noshir's life, and so much more. It was truly a delightful conversation and I'm so excited to share it with you. So here we go.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:00] Hello, you guys.
Sharon Muthu [00:02:01] Hello.
Noshir Dalal [00:02:05] Kaili!
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:05] Oh, my God. I'm so excited. I was so excited that you're here. So this is true. When I was putting together my list for who I wanted on this podcast, you guys were just right at the top. And I was looking at my notes earlier and I said to my producer that you as a couple were video game royalty.
Sharon Muthu [00:02:24] Oh. Oh.
Noshir Dalal [00:02:26] Oh, God.
Sharon Muthu [00:02:26] Yeah, we'll take it. That's right. This is actually -- in all of our careers -- this is the first time that Noshir and I are doing an interview together. So…
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:37] No way!
Sharon Muthu [00:02:37] The first was given to you, Kaili.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:40] I am so honored. I really mean that. And I know how busy you guys are, so really, it's a huge honor and such a delight. And I'm. I'm so excited.
Sharon Muthu [00:02:50] We're thrilled.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:51] You know, I'm I'm not a gamer, as you probably know. So I was just looking through all of your your resume plays for both of you. And I was like, “They've been in every videogame ever.” Like, literally I was like between the two of you, you've done like Agents of Mayhem, Call of Duty, Black Ops, Diablo 3. League of Legends, Unchartered Call of Duty, Fallout, Gears Tactics, like Death Stranding, Days Gone. The Outer Worlds, right? All the Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, Spider-Man, and obviously Red Dead Redemption 2.
Sharon Muthu [00:03:22] Oh yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:24] This is crazy.
Sharon Muthu [00:03:26] It's it's. It's been an honor. It's been a dream, actually, you know, to to to. And I think particularly I can you know, for Noshir who who grew up, you know, loving comic books, loving games, to have the thing he loves be his career, I think is is a really it's a testament to who he is as an artist. I didn't grow up with games. I mean, I had an Atari back in the day.
Sharon Muthu [00:03:54] I played like I play at Burger Time and Frogger and Tapper.
Sharon Muthu [00:03:59] You know, till my eyes fell out. But I didn't really grow up in this world. So I think it's really spectacular to see the way Noshir has evolved in this world particuarly.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:09] Yeah,.
Sharon Muthu [00:04:09] I'm a big fan.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:10] Yeah, me too. I adore your husband, and I think he was always such a great. I always got so excited when I got a call sheet and saw that they were flying him in.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:22] I'd be like, oh my god Nosh is in town. So excited.
Sharon Muthu [00:04:26] Oh, that's lovely.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:28] So let's talk about how you guys started. You know, I notice on social media that you guys often get the same question that I get, which is how do you get into voice acting? And. And I think that's because people know us from a lot of their favorite animated series or video games. But the truth is, you are both actors?
Sharon Muthu [00:04:47] Correct.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:49] Yeah. Sharon, you started in Chicago theater, is that right?
Sharon Muthu [00:04:52] I did. Correct. Yeah. I went to a sort of a subcategory of DePaul, had a campus up in Lake Forest called Bear College, and I studied theater there and then had like a really prolific stage career. I did a lot of straight plays, a lot of Shakespeare and then a musical here and there for the better part of like 10 years in Chicago and the Chicago landscape. And it was I feel like that's for me, where my roots, where my roots are like my first love as an actor was with stage. Absolutely.
Kaili Vernoff [00:05:25] I have to say, I was listening to one of your reels and I heard you sing and I had chills up and down my spine.
Sharon Muthu [00:05:32] Oh, boy. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. Okay, I just want you to follow me around all day and tell me nice things.
Kaili Vernoff [00:05:40] Do you miss it?
Kaili Vernoff [00:05:41] Do you miss being onstage and singing onstage and all that?
Sharon Muthu [00:05:45] I do. I think it's such a different beast. I know there's this ongoing battle between on camera artists and voiceover artists and stage artists as to like which acting is the more pure form. And I feel like I feel like they've all of it has its particular challenges. But I think the the thing I miss about theater is the energy and the joy of of the audience in the room with you and that sort of that feedback loop that that waiting in the wings moment, you know, before the curtain goes up and just how different the show can be every day, depending on the audience.
Kaili Vernoff [00:06:21] Yeah. Because they bring a whole other dimension. Yes. The audience isn't the same every night. So the show can't be the same every show.
Sharon Muthu [00:06:28] The show is never the same, which is both terrifying and thrilling. And so I feel like that that's that's the part I miss. I love collaboration in the way that we used to experience it in theater. And I feel like it's a different beast in camera and other things. But I feel like actually, though, when it comes to voice acting, I feel and I wonder Nosh how you feel about this. I feel like the the the way we collaborate and voice acting, Particularly for animation and games really does harken back to the collaborative spirit I used to feel in theater.
Sharon Muthu [00:07:07] Do you feel that way?
Kaili Vernoff [00:07:10] No, me or no or Noshir?
Sharon Muthu [00:07:12] Yes, all of you. But yes,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:07:14] I absolutely do. But I'd rather hear from Noshir. Do you feel that way, Noshir?
Noshir Dalal [00:07:19] I would definitely echo that sentiment. I think. And I think for me at least, performance capture has been kind of the, Like my kind of coming back to my roots in a way, I I really do feel that performance capture is essentially really, really expensive, really high tech black box theater.
Kaili Vernoff [00:07:40] Yeah. With a camera right on your face.
Noshir Dalal [00:07:43] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the tech allows you to do some things that you can't do in theater, which is so amazing, but otherwise so many things that are similar.
Noshir Dalal [00:07:53] But to Sharon's point. That live audience.
Noshir Dalal [00:07:59] And the way they're their response fuels your performance is obviously something that in animation or video games, you still don't get. So there's something kind of cool about when a project comes out. Seeing how the audience reacts. Because, Sharon, I'm sure you feel the same like when there's a character that you've put a lot of love and effort into, but you have no idea how they'll be received.
Sharon Muthu [00:08:26] Exactly.
Noshir Dalal [00:08:27] That can be really nerve wracking.
Sharon Muthu [00:08:28] Yeah, it's daunting. It's daunting.
Sharon Muthu [00:08:30] But it's but it's also you. So you create that for yourself. Right. You you create all of the things that would externally be there for you in theater. The set, the lights, the costumes, the what's going on. It's all in your head and you're in a vacuum, kind of creating that for yourself. And then the audience response comes many months or years later. And I think that's the other part of it. We see it for the first time in its entirety at the same time our audience sees it. So,.
Noshir Dalal [00:09:02] Yeah, that's a trip.
Sharon Muthu [00:09:04] It's a trip. Really? Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:06] Yeah. I have to say that seeing how the audiences respond to, to Susan Grimshaw was like it was like I no longer had any sort of ownership over her. She now belongs to the fans and they continue to expand who she is based on their imagination and their experience. And it's so cool.
Sharon Muthu [00:09:28] It is. Well, you know, how cool is that?
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:31] It's so cool. Yeah. So, Noshir. I know that you studied brain and cognitive science up in Rochester, is that right?
Noshir Dalal [00:09:39] Oh, God,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:41] You have a degree in it!
[00:09:42] Yes. Yeah. So little known fact. Why are we.
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:46] I have a question. Why are we moaning about that? Do we not like talking about that?
Noshir Dalal [00:09:51] No.
Noshir Dalal [00:09:51] Well, I mean, my journey to acting has been a long, meandering and sordid affair.
Sharon Muthu [00:09:59] So fascinating, too, though. Your journey is fascinating, but.
Noshir Dalal [00:10:06] Yes. Originally. Back in the day, I thought I was gonna be a doctor. And I went to Cornell originally and then I ended up at University of Rochester.
Kaili Vernoff [00:10:17] Yeah. Yeah. And did that. So when did you switch to acting? Did you end up going to school for acting or is that something that you just went and just got your feet wet?
Sharon Muthu [00:10:31] You got to tell that story. Noshir. Come on.
Kaili Vernoff [00:10:33] Oh, yeah. Tell this story.
Kaili Vernoff [00:10:35] I don't know this story,.
Noshir Dalal [00:10:37] ok, This is like a super weird long, sorry. And please cut me off at any time. I'll try to do the Cliff Notes version. Sharon, you you call me out when I feel,.
Sharon Muthu [00:10:47] You know, I'm going to cut.
Noshir Dalal [00:10:52] I can always count on you for that.
Sharon Muthu [00:10:53] Happy to help.
Noshir Dalal [00:10:55] So, I mean, I was a super nerd growing up. I did all the sports and stuff, but I grew up kind of, you know, one of the smallest kids in my in my grade and I'm a straight-A student, didn't really know what I wanted to do, but.
Noshir Dalal [00:11:09] Went to Cornell because I figured premed was a way to go. I was a very, very, very lost, very, very angry kid.
Noshir Dalal [00:11:20] I done martial arts all my life.
Noshir Dalal [00:11:22] And like I would actively seek out chances to show off my ability to hurt people because I was a shitty, shitty person.
Kaili Vernoff [00:11:34] Well, it sounds to me like you are a person in some pain.
Sharon Muthu [00:11:37] There we go. I think that’s a very fair way to say it, even if I probably didn't recognize it at the time.
Noshir Dalal [00:11:43] So I was at Cornell and. And probably my sophomore year. Out of nowhere, I started having these attacks where I would literally just in the middle of a conversation on the street or whatever, just collapse,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:12:00] Like panic attacks?
Noshir Dalal [00:12:00] No, like full on blackout. Like, I would know it was coming. They thought I had. They thought maybe it was epilepsy or I was having seizures or something. I went to the doctor. They couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. But my hemocrit was my my blood cell count was just plummeting. And.
Noshir Dalal [00:12:24] Basically to the point where the Dean of the Arts and Sciences School at Cornell, Dean, [00:12:30] Dean Gabbard,
Noshir Dalal [00:12:32] Basically, was that because I refused to leave, the idea of not graduating with my class was just outrageous to me, which lets you know where my priorities were, and. And he basically kicked me out. He was like, I'm gonna put you in putting you on medical leave when when you're better, You can come back. But, you know, I'm not going to let you stay here and hurt yourself. So I ended up leaving and going back to Rochester and spending a lot of time in the oncology department there because they thought I had leukemia and then they thought I had lymphoma.
Kaili Vernoff [00:13:05] Oh, my God.
Noshir Dalal [00:13:06] Yeah, it was pretty scary. And at one point, the doctors were like, so we figure in about a year and a half. If this continues, though, it's going you're going to be in really dire straits. So we're going to take out your spleen and I was like whattt.
Noshir Dalal [00:13:25] Excuse me.
Noshir Dalal [00:13:26] You know, I was like, why? Like what? What's the medical thing?
Noshir Dalal [00:13:30] And they were like, well, your spleen just seems slightly enlarged. And we figure that maybe what's, you know, what's causing it. It's like you're not taking out my spleen.
[00:13:38] Like,on a guess.
Kaili Vernoff [00:13:38] Yeah!
Noshir Dalal [00:13:42] Are you insane!
Sharon Muthu [00:13:42] It's just something to try. Yeah.
Noshir Dalal [00:13:45] And they made it clear that, you know, I mean, my situation is pretty bad. I was I was going in and getting my blood drawn every few days. If I had my temperature went up at all, I had to go to the emergency room because I didn't have the white blood cells to fight infection. It was really bad.
Kaili Vernoff [00:13:59] And that sounds really hard.
Noshir Dalal [00:14:02] Yeah. So basically, I was desperate and really scared and I ended up reaching out to my Kung Fu master, Master Joe Salamone.
Noshir Dalal [00:14:12] And I'd been training under under his students for quite some time. And I really look up to him and, you know, I said, Master Joe. Give me, like, you know, a year and a half to live. I'm freaking out like I don't know what to do. I'm really scared.
Kaili Vernoff [00:14:31] They gave you a year and a half to live.
Noshir Dalal [00:14:33] Well, essentially, they were telling me, like within that timeline, if this continues, like, it's going to become really, really dire, you know, because my my my blood cell count was just was plummeting.
Noshir Dalal [00:14:50] So my Kung Fu Master was like. Well, Noshir you're all fire and no water. You. You do everything at like one hundred and fifty percent, but you don't know anything about yourself as a person. Maybe you need to explore the softer side of things like poetry or like an acting class or something.
Noshir Dalal [00:15:13] And I was like, what the fuck are you saying to me?
Kaili Vernoff [00:15:18] I have chills up and down right now! By the way, I'm like, oh, all chills right now.
Sharon Muthu [00:15:20] I told you I'm dying. And you told me to take a pottery class.
Noshir Dalal [00:15:25] It was like I was like, well, you know, I thought you were gonna give me, like, a magic potion with, like, lizards and scorpions floating in it. Like what?
Noshir Dalal [00:15:32] Like, what are you telling me? Like taken like poetry or an acting class. I was like, what the, I mean I didn't say this to him, but it was like I, I was really hoping for some guidance and guidance to me? And at the time, like, you couldn't you couldn't pay me to to like act.
Noshir Dalal [00:15:52] I was I was very emotionally guarded and very emotionally stunted. I mean, I like I was one of those guys like you don't touch me like and I'm certainly not turning my back to you is all that kind of stuff. And out of desperation and also like not knowing what else to do. I'd enrolled at the University of Rochester because I was really close to the hospital and I could be, you know, at home and then all the stuff. So I was going to finish off my degree there. And I found out they had a theater program and kind of on a whim, I went and checked it out. So I went to this intro class.
Noshir Dalal [00:16:34] And I hated it.
Noshir Dalal [00:16:36] I freakin hated it.
Noshir Dalal [00:16:39] It was like,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:41] Did you hate all the little acting students that were just so emotionally available?
Noshir Dalal [00:16:47] I walked into this room and there's like an entire shadow through each other. Yes. They're hugging each other and you know one in one guy is in the corner just sobbing.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:59] Sorry to laugh, but I remember those freshman acting classes, so.
Sharon Muthu [00:17:03] Oh, so perfect.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:04] And then, you know, these two people, like with their hands on their shoulders, like doing like the uhhhh and I was like, you guys are wieners. I don't know what is happening here.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:14] I hate you all. And I hate this class.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:16] And the teacher for it, Nigel Maister, was Nigel,.
Sharon Muthu [00:17:20] Oh Nigel, Who is who I have to interrupt by saying he is pivotal. He was like the anchor for Nosh and his future trajectory. Really, really.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:28] Totally. Totally.
Kaili Vernoff [00:17:28] What was his name? Let's shout him out.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:32] Nigel Maister He. He runs the theater program at the University of Rochester.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:34] And I mean, in no small part, I really do owe him my life. Yeah.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:43] So.
Noshir Dalal [00:17:45] We would do good, read a play that was currently going on and like they would even be stuff in there, like, you know, dealing with some. Sexuality and like, you know, kind of fighting the heterosexual norms and all the stuff. And it wasn't that I was.
Noshir Dalal [00:18:06] No, look, I was very sheltered in my upbringing. And like, that kind of stuff made me incredibly uncomfortable. And I think Nigel, for whatever reason, saw. Someone who could really use some help and essentially, like I was a straight-A student and he.
Noshir Dalal [00:18:30] He kind of was like so. You're going to audition for this play. And I was like, no, I'm not. And he was like, well, if you don't like, I'm not going to give you your your "A" like you are auditioning for this play.
Sharon Muthu [00:18:41] Yeah, he threatened the GPA, a brilliant move..
Noshir Dalal [00:18:48] So it was for Friedrich Dürrenmatt’s The Visit. Yeah. Yeah. And like Nigel had this really amazing vision for what he wanted to do and I auditioned for the role of the priest. I didn't know what I was doing and I went, you know, to get my A. And then of course he cast me.
Kaili Vernoff [00:19:12] of course he did!
Noshir Dalal [00:19:12] Why!? Why are you doing this to me?
Noshir Dalal [00:19:15] And so I and I'm like, fine. Like, OK, yeah, I'll roll with this. Let's see just how bad this gets.
Noshir Dalal [00:19:23] And. You know, it's not a large part, but I remember being in the small blackbox theater.
Noshir Dalal [00:19:31] And watching. You know, a couple dozen.
Noshir Dalal [00:19:37] people have this shared community experience like and I watched a whole bunch of strangers kind of come together in one moment being moved by a story that they were all getting told at the same time and everyone was taking something different from it.
Noshir Dalal [00:19:53] But the transformation was common.
Noshir Dalal [00:19:56] And. It really freaked me out, like it made me incredibly uncomfortable. And. And I needed to know more.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:07] So I ended up auditioning for the next play, and that was.
Kaili Vernoff [00:20:10] you were hooked.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:12] yeah, well, it's funny because I was hooked in that it offered me something I'd never experienced before.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:20] But I didn't really like it.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:21] It actually made me incredibly uneasy,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:20:25] Like being on stage or just the whole the whole study of acting?
Noshir Dalal [00:20:30] The whole thing.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:31] I mean. Being on stage, the idea that, like. OK, so you got a great example is the next play. I ended up playing the father in Six Characters in Search of an Author.
Noshir Dalal [00:20:45] And the father is a. That is a. He is a messed up dude, you know, like I mean, he abandons his family and as a result, I mean, there's a scene where he essentially tries to push himself on a young prostitute at a whorehouse and only when she breaks down in hysterics as he come to realize that this is his daughter. Right. As all of his you know, as a result of his cowardice and poor life decisions like he is. This is what he has wrought, you know. Yeah. Nigel had brought up a New York director, Michael Barakiva, to do that play. And Michael knew that I was super like super wound up really high strung and very uncomfortable. And so he had everyone leave the stage that it was just me and the other actress, Kayley Quinn, an amazing actress, and I couldn't do it. Like, I like halfway through the scene, I just bolted. And he followed me. And he's like, what's wrong? And I was I was like punching lockers and breaking shit. And I was just like, I hate this. Like this. This guy is a pig. He's disgusting. Why? Why would I want to do this? Like, I don't and I don't like the way this makes me feel like I was so angry and so.
Noshir Dalal [00:22:03] Ashamed and like, it was embarrassing. You know, like I was playing a character who’s just a disaster and has hurt people as a result of his cowardice. And Michael kind of took me aside and was like, Noshir like you can't judge him if you are going to be an actor. You have to learn to accept who this guy is, because he's you, you know. And I was like, Okay. Whatever you say. Like, I really had a hard time with it. And then closing night of that show, we all had like this really stark makeup that we were in for the show and on closing night. I'm kind of taking it off. And I started I started crying like this, not something at that time. I was like I kind of realized that the Father had become this really. Flawed friend who'd made some really bad choices, but that didn't make him a bad person, you know, and that I was never gonna see him again. And that just killed me.
Kaili Vernoff [00:23:09] Yeah. You got your key in,
Noshir Dalal: It realy broke my heart.
Kaili Vernoff: You got your key in.
Noshir Dalal [00:23:13] Yeah. And I think I learned to love someone who had a lot of flaws, which actually was me learning to love myself. And at this time, I was getting my blood drawn and all this other stuff and things weren't going well. And. And shortly after, I think closing night somewhere on there, I got a call from the doctor and they were like, hey, you need to come in right away. It's surgery time, you know? So.
Sharon Muthu [00:23:38] The best part of the story.
Noshir Dalal [00:23:40] So so I go in and I was like, so what spleen's coming out? And they were like, so over the last three months or so, they had this like chart.
Noshir Dalal [00:23:52] Like, you're you're a medic rate, right? Your blood count has just started taking off again. We don't know if that's because of a change in your diet or a change in your lifestyle. If you've changed something in your life recently. Just keep doing what you're doing because we don't actually know what's wrong with you. But right now, it seems to be reversing course. And the only thing that really happened is I started acting.
Sharon Muthu [00:24:18] Isn't that amazing?
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:19] This is incredible.
Sharon Muthu [00:24:20] Acting saved his life!
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:23] I love this. And I believe it with everything that I am. I mean, I really do. This could be a whole other podcast.
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:32] But I believe that what we hold inside and what we refuse to look at can make us very sick.
Noshir Dalal [00:24:41] And I mean, my anger, especially at myself, was essentially like.
Noshir Dalal [00:24:45] I think I was literally consuming myself like I was I. It's just like my master had said, I was all fire and no water and I was I was burning myself from the inside out. I mean. Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:58] That is an incredible story. Incredible.
Noshir Dalal [00:25:01] Sorry for the rambling.
Kaili Vernoff [00:25:03] No, you're not rambling. I love this because, you know, I think one of the reasons that I so wanted to talk to you both is that I really admire it, that you bring your whole selves to what you do. And I've really been sort of immersing myself in your stuff, in prepping for this this conversation. And it's been amazing. Sharon, I was watching your acting reel. And you are you I mean, you have an extensive film and television reel. And you are a fantastic actress.
Sharon Muthu [00:25:33] Thank you, that means so much.
Kaili Vernoff [00:25:37] But I will tell you something else, too. I'll tell you something else, Sharon, is that when I was listening to your voiceover real and I mean even the commercial voice over real, I was like. God damn, I need to step up my game.
Sharon Muthu [00:25:49] I mean, you think you're doing all right lady.
Kaili Vernoff [00:25:55] But what I mean is what I mean is you bring something incredibly specific to each of these spots. It is so specific. And I think if there's a word for it, I would call it precision.
Sharon Muthu [00:26:08] Oh, thank you. That mean that's the best compliment I could ever get, because I think that's what we strive to do. Right. No two people are alike so no two characters can be alike. And even though you're bringing the same your same self to each character, we're so complicated as humans that I think there is that right.
Noshir Dalal [00:26:30] You seek out that like Nosh was talking about like with the father in the play, like you have to seek out the part of you, however ugly or vulnerable or scary it is that resonates with this character.
Sharon Muthu [00:26:43] And so I it means a lot to me that you feel that way listening to my work, because.
Kaili Vernoff [00:26:51] I absolutely do.
Kaili Vernoff [00:26:52] I absolutely do. I was like listening to you selling, you know, different, you know, liquors and stuff like that.
Kaili Vernoff [00:27:00] And I thought,.
Sharon Muthu [00:27:02] I feel this voice lends itself to liquor.
Kaili Vernoff [00:27:07] I mean ah yes it's a little bit sexy. But it's but it's specific.
Kaili Vernoff [00:27:12] It's so you're so precise with what you're doing. Did you develop that skill for voice over or or is that just you as an actress? And it translates so well.
Sharon Muthu [00:27:21] I think it it it will never be. I've learned unfortunately the hard way, fortunately and unfortunately the hard way over my journey that it it it does come back to the storytelling. It's always the acting. Because I, I really I you know, my little story is that I have had this voice, this deep, resonant voice since the time I was kid a kid. I joke about, you know, being in an eight year old at recess and somebody is like, what's your name?
Sharon Muthu [00:27:47] And I'm like, Sharon. I've always had this, like, enormous voice.
Sharon Muthu [00:27:51] And actually growing up, it made me self-conscious. It was one of those things that I'm like, I don't sound sweet and girly and high pitched like other little girls around me. And I eventually had to I once I grew up and I learned that my voice was a gift and I learned that I could use it to communicate and to touch people and to, you know, and to and to hopefully, you know, foster human communication and human connection. I did start to perceive it as a gift.
Sharon Muthu [00:28:22] And then I went too far the other direction. And I think for many years in my early acting life, particularly in voiceover, I relied on that sexy voice.
Sharon Muthu [00:28:33] So it began as a crutch.
Sharon Muthu [00:28:36] You know, I became this this this thing that I could hide behind. And I think it it really has been, I think in more recent years where I started to allow myself to be more vulnerable and allow those parts of me that I'm scared to show or that I'm afraid to be, you know, are gonna be exposed to come to the forefront and let the voice follow the character.
Sharon Muthu [00:29:03] I think that's one I've had the best moments in my acting. And that's where I think specificity and precision, as you said, come from. So for me, it was a journey going going from hating it to going too far the other direction and only using the voice to then finally finding the balance in between to Marry character and voice, you know.
Kaili Vernoff [00:29:23] You know, I you know, I'm thinking that especially as a young woman in this industry, I can't speak for you. But I know that my experience was that people would often tell me to find my thing, like you're a I would hear you're young annMargaret or you're, you know, find what is your niche. And then I did find that I, I limited myself by how I thought other people were perceiving me. And then I was afraid to sort of move into, you know, other other areas to to try new stuff until I got a little older. I think, you know, I think that there comes a time when you have to sort of let that stuff go if you want to stretch as an artist.
Sharon Muthu [00:30:05] Absolutely. And I think this business does that right. Like they do try to typecast you all the time and they show you my sexy girls. Here are my military girls. Here are my.
Sharon Muthu [00:30:14] But we all, as human beings have everything in us. Like all the different, you know, at all you all the best you can do. I always say with any audition or any role is just bring your version of it and then you leave the rest to the cast and directors and the producers to decide, like, are you the voice I'm looking for? Are you the storyteller I'm looking for? But. But I think Nosh and I both have learned through our our experience that that is all you can do is bring a stretch and bring yourself to it. You know.
Kaili Vernoff [00:30:45] Yeah, yeah, I saw I saw this video that you put out Noshir. You were addressing people that were trying to break into voiceover by playing with their voice, working on their voice accents. And you were talking about how critical it is to focus on character development. And you said something that just just blew my mind open. You know, we were talking about as actors, we always look for what each character wants. Right. That's that's you know, that's page one of good acting. Right. What are you after? What's your what do you want?
Kaili Vernoff [00:31:21] What's your objective? But what you said was whether or not it's in the script. And then you said this thing that I actually wrote down for myself and I'm it just so I would have it. But I want to share it here. You said everyone has motives and a lot of times those motives don't actually match up to what they say.
Sharon Muthu [00:31:40] Well, that's right.
Kaili Vernoff [00:31:42] And I thought that that is such a gift because because, you know, we'll think about what we did in red dead. I never knew where Susan was going or where she came from or what would happen tomorrow. They didn't give me that because of the NDA, so. Right. So how do I create this character except for figuring out places to to, places to find that what does she want? Whether or not it has to do with her actual words. Can you expand on that a little bit? Because I think it's really important for people to hear.
Noshir Dalal [00:32:19] Oh, man. I'll try.
Kaili Vernoff [00:32:22] I know. I just gave it all away. Now, say, I think I'm.
Noshir Dalal [00:32:31] Human like human language is such an interesting. And beautiful thing, but it's so limited, you know. And I think as a result, the other part of it is the average human being. Isn't comfortable with actually letting people know their wants and their fears and their hopes and their dreams because it makes you vulnerable. Right. And unfortunately, most of the time, we brace ourselves for the idea that. That could be a weapon turned against us. Right. I think a lot of times people learn that from when they're very young and so. So often you'll have a you'll have a desperate hope and you don't dare voice it. Right.
Noshir Dalal [00:33:24] So instead you'll do this kind of circumnavigating thing. I mean I mean, imagine the first time, you know, as a I don't know, for me, it would be like a college kid. You know, you try to talk to a girl or whatever. It's not like, hey, I think you're fascinating. And so cool. I'd love to spend time with you. That's certainly not the way I grew up.
Noshir Dalal [00:33:48] No. Hey, what do you think about this pizza like stupid stuff.
Kaili Vernoff [00:33:55] Are you going to the party?
Noshir Dalal [00:33:57] Yes, exactly.
Kaili Vernoff [00:34:00] And so this place is lame, isn't it? Right.
Noshir Dalal [00:34:05] And I think it's interesting that. Like, especially in an. Like auditions and scripts. They don't have to. I think there was a time when.
Noshir Dalal [00:34:21] It was super important to me that whoever was going to watch or listen to my audition, they knew I'd done my homework and that I knew what they wanted and I was giving it to them. you know what I mean.
Kaili Vernoff [00:34:31] Oh, I do know what you mean. Yes.
Noshir Dalal [00:34:33] Yeah. And the truth of the matter is, I don't know what they want because actually most of time they don't know what they want, you know. Yeah.
Noshir Dalal [00:34:41] And certainly playing it on the nose is actually not very interesting. So oftentimes for me in my character, building, I'll create Desires and hopes and dreams and fears that are not anywhere on the page.
Noshir Dalal [00:35:02] Only because they.
Noshir Dalal [00:35:06] They create conflict inside me, right? So that when I speak something, especially if I'm speaking something with a completely different meaning underneath. You don't have to know what I'm thinking about, but you will pick up on. That's something is not copacetic.
Kaili Vernoff [00:35:26] I mean, yeah, that internal struggle that yeah, yeah, that that internal dissonance. Yeah.
Noshir Dalal [00:35:32] Because human beings by their nature. You know, as animals, we've learned to pick up on deception. And I think that's why the worst thing you can do as an actor is try to sell. Right. Right. Because as soon as you start selling any any human being who's incredibly perceptive, especially given the media bombardment, bombardment we were subjected to, now will pick up on like You're trying to manipulate me and immediately I back off.
Noshir Dalal [00:36:05] You know, because it's like,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:36:06] Oh, my God, you are so right. Yeah, right. You are trying to sell me and I don't want to be sold.
Noshir Dalal [00:36:12] Right. Right.
Kaili Vernoff [00:36:14] That is really true. That is so true.
Sharon Muthu [00:36:18] That definitely requires courage out of the actor, too, because, you know, I still struggle, I think, with that notion. Nosh, was saying about giving them what they want for hitting it on the head, you know, of whatever they're trying to cast in it. You can get really caught in your head, especially with the breakdowns they send us.
Sharon Muthu [00:36:40] Sometimes they'll be like, you know, looking for Jennifer Lawrence, but also an Oprah type. And you're like, I don't know. You're asking me for a (laughing).
Sharon Muthu [00:36:51] Nosh I both have studied with an amazing coach and he's become a really dear friend. In fact, he married us. Bill Holmes, who told us very early in our training, you guys let go of the breakdowns, let let go of all of the words on the page that are confusing you and making you start to sell the idea of what they're looking for. And I know Nosh always will say it's not in the breakdown. It's in the script. That's where you have to look for the cues for for how to craft your character. Yep.
Sharon Muthu [00:37:26] And I think that that has been a hard lesson, but also a really free one when you can let go of the expectation and just find your story in the script and bring yourself to it, you know.
Kaili Vernoff [00:37:38] Yeah. I mean, I think we I don't know about you guys, but I've heard this story over and over. And I've I've experienced it myself over and over. But there are always times when I am just flat out exhausted or I have something else going on in my life that I can't. I can't bring a whole lot of energy to an audition. I just can't. And that is almost always when you get the job. I mean, you do not almost always, but it happens often enough because I think that all you can do at that point is bring the work you've done and you don't have the energy to to put towards people pleasing because you're distracted. And most people in real life are distracted, you know. So there's something about that that I think people respond to.
Sharon Muthu [00:38:29] Nosh and I talk all the time about how our job is not the booking. Our job is the auditioning as actors, which is a tricky thing because I think we're all wanting to have a career and book the job and find a life. But Nosh once told me that the minute he let go of needing to book the job at the end of it and just bringing himself that, he has the job for a minute while the auditions going on here. And those are those are when those are his best moments of shining. And I think I can agree with that.
Kaili Vernoff [00:39:04] That's really well said. It's true. It is your job. They've invited you there. They are watching you. And you are playing the role. Right. But I can't think of my job as auditioning because it's also sure, it's also torture.
Kaili Vernoff [00:39:16] And that's my job.
Sharon Muthu [00:39:17] But I hear what you're saying. I know for sure. No, it's we as I think we did, we all deal with a lot to just try to get to the other side.
Kaili Vernoff [00:39:25] That's why when I have a job, I insist on enjoying it. This is a little side note, but I insist on enjoying it. You are never going to see me complaining because I've been in my trailer too long or that the food isn't good because auditioning can be such a slog. It can be so hard. It can't all be. It can't all be miserable. So when I have the job, I insist on enjoying myself, I,.
Sharon Muthu [00:39:50] I just think it's a good way to live. Right.
Noshir Dalal [00:39:53] It's just it's interesting. Like I actually really enjoy auditioning.
Noshir Dalal [00:39:58] He really does no slow. He's the one like a mutant in town that actually loves to audition.
Kaili Vernoff [00:40:04] That is such an advantage. I think it is such an advantage to enjoy the process.
Noshir Dalal [00:40:09] I think I enjoy it because for me, the way I look at it is like.
Noshir Dalal [00:40:14] I mean.
Noshir Dalal [00:40:16] For for this brief moment in time, this role is mine. You know, no one gets to tell me what to do. No. No producer in the back gets to, you know, put their two cents. And I get to.
Noshir Dalal [00:40:30] Really let rip. And just do whatever I want to do, and if I'm really doing what I want to do with it, that's a lot of fun. And also, that means that when I submitted. I'm literally saying, look, this is what I want to do with this take it or leave it. You know what i mean, versus this is, you know.
Kaili Vernoff [00:40:49] Oh, my God, you're talking about self tapes. You like the self tape?
Noshir Dalal [00:40:53] Oh, I love all.
Sharon Muthu [00:40:57] Listen, you should be. You should come participate in the self tape process at our house because it can be like an I mean, he truly loves it.
Sharon Muthu [00:41:06] He is. He was truly born to do this. He's masterful at, like, scene breakdown and trying something else and playing with it. And I think that's it's extraordinary because what Kylie said is true. It can be exhausting. It's like, you know, most most professionals out there go on a job interview and then get a job and are there for some years.
Sharon Muthu [00:41:25] We go on a new job interview like seven times a day, you know, and and it can be it can wear on you. So I think it's really astounding that he has the job.
Kaili Vernoff [00:41:35] It is. And I do want to I want to just sort of throw something out here. And I don't know if this is true. I'm just thinking of it now. But since both genders are here. Yes. Don't you think, Sharon, that there is something to putting yourself on tape and all that, that that because we are women, we are also expected to look a certain way. And so the hair, the makeup, the lighting, the clothes. I mean, already when you go to an audition for me, I'm already stretching myself by choosing what I'm wearing. That would be a costume designer job by doing my hair, my makeup. There are skilled people at those things. Now I'm in charge of lighting the camera angle, you know. And and it it adds a layer of stress.
Sharon Muthu [00:42:24] It's it's pressure. And it's one of the things that I've struggled with my entire journey in Los Angeles. You know, they really are we are an industry here that is caught up in how someone looks and what age they are. And, you know, all the physical attributes matter, particularly when it comes to on camera. And it can be a rabbit hole, you know, to go down if you are questioning whether those things are affecting your ability to book the job, you know.
Sharon Muthu [00:42:59] And it isn't, you know, in an on camera and whatnot, those become part of how you tell the story. It's one of the reasons that I find so much freedom in voiceover because suddenly all of those external things go away. I don't have to hit my mark and find my light and where's my prop? And all of those things go away. And it almost I always say almost sort of distills the storytelling and I get to just concentrate on that part of it and create the rest in my mind. But it's it I can only speak from the female perspective, but it can be extraordinary pressure to have to fit a certain mold or constantly be questioning all the all your physical traits and how they might affect your ability to get the job. And a lot of times it's distracting you from the actual storytelling.
Sharon Muthu [00:43:52] You know, by by that point, you're exhausted. And I think it's a really tough thing to work through.
Kaili Vernoff [00:43:58] Do you feel that same pressure? Noshir. I'm really interested in this.
Noshir Dalal [00:44:09] There's definitely a pressure, I think, on all of that has to follow me Getting a firm grasp on what the story is.
Sharon Muthu [00:44:20] I think it's interesting, though, because it feels almost like two different questions, like one or two, you know, two different sort of thoughts. Like one is when does when does what your character wears and what not come into play for you creating a character. But the second question is, what pressure do males feel in this business to look a certain way, stay at a certain fitness level, you know, have a certain look or hair or muscles or whatever? Is that is that kind of wear closer to what you're asking, Kaili? like, females kind of feel that pressure to like have great hair and be skinny and pretty and, you know, all of that.
Kaili Vernoff [00:45:00] Yeah. So let me say you're you're exactly right. There are two ways to look at this. I had a great acting teacher and I went to the acting conservatory at Boston University. And I had a teacher who talked about basically how when when you hit the desperation stage, when you've done everything you can to find this character and it's still eluding you, try changing the clothes, try carrying a different purse, like then you can try and external. And that is a great way of using those things. You don't wear your hair differently, throw it back, see if that changes how you how you look at this character. But it is true that I think at least being a woman who's been in this I've been in this business forever, that I have had enough people say to me, hey, they absolutely loved you, but they said it didn't look like you brushed your hair, you know.
Noshir Dalal [00:45:53] what, really?
Sharon Muthu [00:45:54] Yeah, that is that is just part of being a woman in this business. That is part of being a woman in this business. They loved you, but they said that you are like 10 pounds too heavy to be the [00:46:04]ingénue.[0.0s]
Kaili Vernoff [00:46:06] But, you know, 20 pounds too thin to be the fat best friend. Like, it really is a thing where as now as I've gotten older, it's easier to to understand where those voices come from.
Kaili Vernoff [00:46:19] But there is still a part of me that that knows that that presenting a certain ideal of beauty. Is just expected, unless the character specifically works against that, you know.
Noshir Dalal [00:46:36] Yeah, I think. Well, so there are two different things we just talked about there, and I don't think I generally have. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I'll be in the in the waiting room, for example, and like, it's like, damn, there are a bunch of like a supermodel looking dudes here with you know chisel jaws and all this stuff and like, you know, biceps the size of my face. And that's that's great.
Noshir Dalal [00:47:01] I don't know. There's not much I can ever do about that and that's,
Sharon Muthu [00:47:07] I think Noshir really is. If I may say, like, he's really grounded in who he is and what he brings to the table. And I think that that that. Up shows up in how much he lets those pressures of what of looking like a certain way or fitting the roll or whatever he does. I know it rolls off him in a different way than I think it does for a lot of a lot of actors. And I think that's just like the work he's put in to not buy into those expectations. I know I've struggled with it more. I think I still struggle with it. And I think he's just maybe grown past it. If I want to put words in your mouth, Noshir.
Sharon Muthu [00:47:54] But it seems so.
Kaili Vernoff [00:47:55] It's not like a male female thing. It's just like a Noshir thing.
Noshir Dalal [00:47:59] I don't know.
Noshir Dalal [00:47:59] To be fair, the pressures on on a woman in showbiz are completely, completely different than the kinds of pressures a guy has to face. I mean, to a ridiculous degree, I will never that is like that is a given. And maybe maybe I should have been more clear about that. I will have issues sometimes with like ethnicity, myself, as far as appearance.
Sharon Muthu [00:48:31] Don't get me started on that.
Noshir Dalal [00:48:34] But let's look at the pressures on women are totally… it’s insane.
Kaili Vernoff [00:48:39] Yeah. So since we're here and since you already brought it up, I really do want to talk about this Dark is Beautiful campaign. Yeah. You are an ambassador for Sharon. Yeah. So I've listened to you speak about it, but tell me how it started and how you became involved with it.
Sharon Muthu [00:48:56] So dark is beautiful. We just had our 10-year anniversary. I have not been with the campaign since the very inception. But the gist of things, you know, boils back down to South Asian culture and the sort of nefarious way that skin color bias permeates society there. There really is an unspoken and often spoken belief in society that the fairer you are, the more fair skinned you are, the more beautiful you are, the more successful you'll be, the more marriageable and worthy of love.
Sharon Muthu [00:49:31] You'll be an opportunity in all all these things. And I have a really unique perspective because not I mean, I grew up South Asian, so I understand just how deeply that negativity goes. But I also am an American born woman and an actress here. So I I'm also outside it a little bit, you know, unable, able to kind of look at it. But where the the burning desire began for me, actually, it's a quick story. But before I left Chicago, I was starting to dabble in the idea of TV and film and which eventually led me to moving, relocating. But I was up for the lead role in a South Asian story, a film that was being produced by a major studio here. And the writer was South Asian.
Sharon Muthu [00:50:22] But the rest of the production team was all not Indian or South Asian any way, of course, I think I'm hoping that those things are changing now. You know, whatever, 14 years, 15 years later.
Sharon Muthu [00:50:34] But I had a killer callback and I remember they told me that you would expect a call if they were moving forward. And I got a call and it was the director's assistant who got on the phone and told me how glorious I was. And I was like, all right, here comes the offer. And at the end, she said, But we are going a different way.
Sharon Muthu [00:50:59] And I was like, okay. Which, you know, sort of killed my soul. But at the same time, I was like, try to be a good actor.
Sharon Muthu [00:51:06] So I was like, well, thank you for your feedback. If there is anything you can tell me, you know, that I can use to better myself in the future, I would welcome your feedback, you know. And it's very not South Asian woman was like, oh, no, no, honey, we thought you were perfect for the role. You just didn't look Indian enough. And I. I sort of was like, oh, OK, thank you. Thank you for your time. And I hung up the phone a little confused and slowly confusion… Confusion turned to rage as I stop to consider that I am 100 percent Indian in my bloodline. I was born with dark skin. I have two Tamil Indian parents. I am what Indian looks like. And whereas I think a lot of people who are actually in deeply in South Asian culture, not outside of it in America like I am not, that it doesn't exist here as well.
Sharon Muthu [00:52:03] But I think it's easy to get to allow that to kill your self-worth and to start to really question whether or not you are worthy of love and respect and opportunity when society is is really putting you down for being for looking the way you look.
Sharon Muthu [00:52:19] I, however, have always been a little feisty and I, I got I got fed up with it. I was like, how dare you?
Sharon Muthu [00:52:28] You tell me not Indian person that I don't look Indian enough. But then I also sort of started to recognize that that's sort of India's South Asian cultures fault, because we in India have such a an ashamed view of our own dark skin that in our entertainment and media we only push forward fair skin, tall, beautiful Italian looking actresses. However talented and beautiful they are, they are not necessarily an authentic representation of what society looks like. And I sort of, you know, and so we come in like a variety, a rainbow of skin colors in India.
Sharon Muthu [00:53:04] And so I kind of made it my mission to start to marry my career and success with victory for dark skinned people everywhere. And and by a series of connections, I had done an interview which someone had read who was connected to the campaign, and the campaign got a hold of me and why I was put in touch with the campaign, rather. And they really opened me. Welcomed me with open arms to kind of be an ambassador to Hollywood for the campaign. So to try to take their message more globally and, you know, kind of help spread awareness, that beauty comes in every shade of skin. And that fair skin or dark skin or anything in between are all worthy of love and respect and opportunity. And, you know, and so I I understand deeply not just the pressures in this industry and in and in South Asian media and entertainment, that you have to look us fit a certain standard of beauty as far as weight and height and some symmetry and hair and makeup. But also there's the added layer of fighting against colorism, you know, and and I can't change my skin color, but I can at least help show people that with every success I have, I am a dark skinned woman. And so there's there's nothing standing in my way. So this should be nothing standing in yours. And that's sort of my role with the campaign. Dark is beautiful. It's an NGO rooted based in India.
Kaili Vernoff [00:54:39] It's so beautiful. I think I heard you say that you hate the boundaries of beauty.
Sharon Muthu [00:54:43] Absolutely. Well said. Absolutely. I think Hollywood needs a good dose of that.
Kaili Vernoff [00:54:48] You know, you're reminding me of of you know, it's not it's not the same. But when you say, you know, that that Bollywood is only showcasing one version of beauty Outword. Right. You know, it's so interesting. As I've gotten older, I have chosen not to do anything to my face. I don't have any fillers or Botox or I've never even had a facial. And that's my choice. And I respect everybody's decisions in this area. Do what you want. But I will say that now when I see myself on TV and especially in HD, there's a moment where I go. I remember the first time I'm seeing myself in like hyper close up in HD on this TV show. And I was like, what? I paused. I was like, what is on my face? What is on my face? I literally thought that there was something on my face and it was wrinkles like between my eyes. And even on my own face, I didn't recognize it because because what women look like in their 40s and even 50s and 60s, Hollywood has changed. So it's like I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look like at this age. It's sort of been warped by what Hollywood has put outward.
Sharon Muthu [00:56:01] And, you know, so much is rooted in like your ethnic background, your genetic background, your family history, like how a person ages, you know, has to do with or, you know, has to do with so many different factors that there can't just be one definition of this is what a person looks like when they're 30. This is what a person looks like if they're Chinese.
Sharon Muthu [00:56:21] This is what a person like we can't put those those limitations on it. There's an exception to every rule.
Sharon Muthu [00:56:28] And so I think the more of us, you know, that are using our faces and our names and our voices to to speak the truth to the masses, the more I hope society will eventually let go of these like unnatural toxics standards and just let people be the color they are and the age they are and the gender they are, and just just celebrate diversity and stop trying to, like, put a definition on it. That's how I feel.
Kaili Vernoff [00:57:00] So yes to that. Yes that. And I, I mean, I'm an eternal optimist, but I do feel like it's getting better. I really do. I feel like there are big pressure right there. They're being big changes for sure. Definitely. OK. We have to talk about videogames.
Kaili Vernoff [00:57:15] We've not talked about games at all. And I've had you guys for an hour or so.
Kaili Vernoff [00:57:22] Sharon, Do you also do do you do motion capture, performance capture?
Sharon Muthu [00:57:27] I have not yet.
Sharon Muthu [00:57:29] I have obviously a history in theater, and I, I know a lot about it just through Noshir's career and watching what his experiences have been. But I have not actually been in the volume. So hopefully that is to come in the future.
Kaili Vernoff [00:57:43] But they'll be so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It is so much fun. It is so, so much fun. I have to say I, I always I often looked to Noshir when I was a little bit lost when we were shooting Red Dead, I'd be like, I don't know what that word means. There were so many phrases. It's like a whole other language. My I literally was like, I don't know what a cut scene is. I don't know what he's good like that. Yeah. Yeah. Really good like that. You know, you're such a great actor. Noshir, you're you're you're such a pro, but you are also just a fucking technician.
Sharon Muthu [00:58:18] Damn right he is.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:20] I saw that the head of player animation from the last of us part two said this about you. He he tweeted out Major in all caps, props. Noshir Dalal for his epic work at the stage for all player gun reloads featured in The Last of US Part two. Every reload that looks like it has some knowledge of technique to it is due to him.
Noshir Dalal [00:58:41] Aw man.
Noshir Dalal [00:58:43] Troy's awesome was a real pleasure to get to work on that project.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:48] So yes, of course. And I'm sure he's awesome. But that is a major thing. I keep saying that every every reload that looks like it has knowledge or technique is only due to you. One guy, it's insane. That's huge. Huge. How how hard do you work on on your technique?
Noshir Dalal [00:59:08] I trained in firearms because for me that was like martial, an extension of martial arts. I didn't kind of a lot of folks study firearms to get into movies or video games. And I guess as a result. So so I mean, Sharon will tell you.
Sharon Muthu [00:59:26] Oh, I was gonna say I got I got to interrupt this dude because he's a super modest. Yeah. He's like. Oh, yeah. Trained in this, you know, Kylie, you know, this man doesn't half ass on anything.
Kaili Vernoff [00:59:38] Oh God, no. We we literally would be on our one lunch break in the middle of a of a shooting day that was like hours and hours and hours, like an extra long day. And on lunch break he'd be like working out in the field.
Sharon Muthu [00:59:51] Like that sounds about right.
Kaili Vernoff [00:59:54] I'm Shoving cookies in my mouth.
Sharon Muthu [00:59:55] It's like while while Noshir is very physically gifted, a technician and an end up and a physical actor like [01:00:04] a kinetic actor, he he puts in hours and hours and hours and days and months and years of training in in his weapon, work in his close quarters, combat in his you know, his martial arts and his. It it is it is a natural gift. But I think as with any natural gift, it requires training and honing. It's a lifelong process. And he he will always be modest about it. But I will tell you that he came back from the last of us sessions with fingers and hands bleeding.
Sharon Muthu [01:00:37] After days of reloads, like how he did, he does not it is not an easy, you know, breezy time. He he puts in a tremendous amount of work.
Sharon Muthu [01:00:49] It's really inspiring.
Kaili Vernoff [01:00:51] Well, maybe Noshir Dalal should teach me how to shoot a bow and arrow and not Charles Smith, because as a player, I still can't do it. I don't understand. Charles gave me my tutorial right at the beginning, but I cannot do it.
Noshir Dalal [01:01:05] Yeah, do you frustrating it is to be like playing a fighting game with my friends. I'm like, I know that some stupid move I can actually pull off in real life. I can't figure out how to do that on a controller.
[01:01:13] Its insane! I.
[01:01:17] I can't do it you know How embarrassing it is sitting with my 14 year old child.
Kaili Vernoff [01:01:20] And she's like, Mom, I just showed you how to do this.
Sharon Muthu [01:01:25] And then there's my part of the population that just wants to take care of my horse. I mean,.
Kaili Vernoff [01:01:30] That's all I want to do and what I wanna do and I don't want to accidentally kick my horse that maybe I just don't want to abuse my horse.
Kaili Vernoff [01:01:38] But I want to talk about Charles Smith for for a moment and and and some of your other characters. You put out a very important video to your fans talking about how there is fan fiction that will will take characters that you have created and then give them different lives. They may put them in an LGBTQ relationship or just give them full lives in their fan fiction. And and it's sort of like what we talked about earlier, that once we're finished with the characters, it belongs to the fans. And I was hoping you could talk about that a little because I thought it was so beautifully said.
Noshir Dalal [01:02:19] Sure. I mean.
Noshir Dalal [01:02:22] I think any of the three of us would agree that. But any of the work we do, any of the characters that we get to, kind of. That we get to walk in their shoes in the first place is such a privilege and then to find that people care about those characters enough to want to extend their life, their lives past the medium. You know, they were presented in what an incredible compliment. Yes. And I know that Sharon has a similar thing with Dr. Bellum and Carmen. And, you know, it's super. That's such a cool but such a cool thing. I just I don't see any reason to.
Noshir Dalal [01:03:11] In any way try to restrict or muzzle that that. That enthusiasm and love for what we're doing, if it's not, it's not hurting anybody. And. And it's being done, you know, with with care and enthusiasm, I'm I'm all for it. And I know that sometimes that can really. Rub certain people the wrong way, especially when they feel they have a personal connection to that character. And this piece of art or fanfiction or what have you is. In some way kind of going against their their thoughts on who that character should be.
Kaili Vernoff [01:03:56] But it is art, right? It is art. What we do is art. And and all art is open to interpretation. And that's what makes it that's what makes it effective is that it...it opens up something different in all of us.
Sharon Muthu [01:04:09] Absolutely.
Kaili Vernoff [01:04:10] OK, we do. We have to talk about Carmen San Diego, too, because. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. You know, Lucy and I started watching it as, like, research, you know, because guys like for She's she's a teenager.
Kaili Vernoff [01:04:21] So it's like, you know, she's a little older than. Sure. And we couldn't stop.
Kaili Vernoff [01:04:28] We just could not stop.
Kaili Vernoff [01:04:31] And then, like, later in the evening, I was listening to one of your reels and she heard a voice that was similar. And she ran and she was. Are you watching without me? She's like she was so mad,.
Sharon Muthu [01:04:38] Oh, that's so cute.
Sharon Muthu [01:04:39] I love that. That makes me so happy. Yeah. I mean, what can I say?
Sharon Muthu [01:04:44] I grew up with Carmen San Diego, you know. And I never dreamed that I'd be part of any kind of a future little life or a new perspective, you know, on the story.
Sharon Muthu [01:04:59] Our show runner, I call him our show runner. I think he might be co executive producer by actual titles, names, Duane Capizzi. He's a show runner.
Kaili Vernoff: We'll just call him the show runner.
Sharon Muthu: He's he's this Emmy Award-winning masterful story crafter. And he decided to he dreamed up this this idea of exploring Carmen Sandiego's origin stories which no one had ever done. And I particularly get tickled about that kind of stuff.
Sharon Muthu [01:05:28] Like, you know, like we always like her her, right? Yes. Wicked, the musical. Who is this crazy Wicked Witch of the West and why is she nuts and killing everybody?
Sharon Muthu [01:05:37] Well, like, I'd love that exploration, that kind of a thing. So already I love where his brain was going with it. But I also think it's particularly special because he was so committed to diversity in the casting. He wanted, because it's a story that talks about different places in the world and teaches children geography and culture and and language.
Sharon Muthu [01:05:58] And it was it was super important to him and to the team to honor diversity and honor a number of different ethnicities and genders. And, you know, and so it's a really special cast and a special collaboration.
Kaili Vernoff [01:06:15] It must be so much fun to play Miss Cerebellum. I love her. How she's like literally like like shooting out like spores to, like, kill the rice crop. And at the same time she's like distracted by cat videos absolute all of us.
Sharon Muthu [01:06:29] I feel like there was some sort of like type cast going on there, but I do.
Sharon Muthu [01:06:34] I particularly love playing the big bads, but I also think that I have a pretty decent handle with comedy.
Sharon Muthu [01:06:41] And so it was very fun to kind of in those initial episodes, the writing alluded to it and then the more I leaned into, the more nuts they made her in the writing. And so I really get to kind of be the comic relief among the big bads in the story.
Sharon Muthu [01:06:56] And that is like a really particular privilege.
Kaili Vernoff [01:07:00] That is such a privilege that they start that they that they see what you're doing.
Kaili Vernoff [01:07:05] And then the writing starts mirroring, mirroring it. It's that it's such an honor and such a privilege. And it's and it's so obvious that you're having so much fun with it.
Sharon Muthu [01:07:14] It's a great it's a great cast. I mean, we spend most of our time in the booth laughing at our own antics and having to kind of be like, okay, okay, back to work, you know, and say,.
Kaili Vernoff [01:07:23] Oh, I nearly fell over when I saw that. That was Rita Moreno. In the end, that was at the pilot of I don't know.
Sharon Muthu [01:07:29] But yeah, she plays the yeah, I know that voice.
Sharon Muthu [01:07:33] She and I love that they do those little they do plant these little Easter eggs everywhere for the old school fans. And so, like, it makes me really happy that, you know, your child who's a little older than maybe what the actual target audience is, can still find joy in it and adults can still find joy in it. And I just love that it can be a family experience.
Noshir Dalal [01:07:54] I loved watching that
Kaili Vernoff [01:07:56] So it's fun. It's real. I think you guys are in season four now.
Kaili Vernoff [01:08:01] Yeah. Is that right?
Sharon Muthu [01:08:03] We just I think they just announced season three.
Kaili Vernoff [01:08:05] Oh okay.
[01:08:06] Yeah.
Sharon Muthu [01:08:06] They just announed season 3. Well, I'm just. I'm psychic and im picturing season four.
Sharon Muthu [01:08:11] I'll take it. That sounds good.
Kaili Vernoff [01:08:13] So this, this. I would love to talk to you guys forever, but I've had you a long time now. So as we're winding down here, I wanted to give you each an opportunity to, as we have talked about through this, this whole conversation, you know, we can't do any of this in a vacuum. We can't do it alone. We all need each other. And so I would love to give you guys an opportunity to talk about a time in your in your life or in your career when someone took a chance on you and gave you an opportunity to shine. So, Sharon, would you like to start?
Sharon Muthu [01:08:46] Sure. I guess especially since we're talking about voice acting and talking about gaming, particularly or specifically, I would say that I got to give a shout out to the legendary Andrea Toyias, who is the head of voice and casting over at Blizzard.
Sharon Muthu [01:09:06] She and I had been sort of, you know, starting to get my feet wet in a voice over, had zero credits to my name. And I was lucky enough that my first voiceover agent sort of just took a chance on me and, and hip pocketed me because I was somebody who was really capable with dialect and playing in a variety of ages with my voice and whatnot.
Sharon Muthu [01:09:32] I was a singer and so I sort of had this little bag of tricks. And so I was lucky enough to get representation. But I had no credits to my name. And one day my old agent called me and he was like, so I just want to let you know that you have a booking. And he said that the night before, Andrea Toyias had called him and been like, hey, who do you have? That's great. With like multiple dialects and multiple ages, they have to be able to convincingly voice kids and adults while maintaining dialect. Who do you got? And he just said, hey, listen to this demo and let me know what you think. And he had sent her my demo and Andrea took a chance on me and just like close cast me just off of hearing my demo, my demo reel. And that led to six sessions on my first game, which was Diablo 3. And I got to play a bevy of characters and a bunch of different ages and dialects and and then she gave me a named character to play Carina. So like, you know, if you if you save that screaming British woman from the spider queen, that was me.
Sharon Muthu [01:10:40] And. And it just really was the.
Kaili Vernoff [01:10:43] I think I saw it on YouTube.
Sharon Muthu [01:10:47] The weirdest thing in the world was who was sitting in the living room watching Noshir, save me from the spider.
Sharon Muthu [01:10:52] That was like like that was a lot of things going on there. But it gave me… she taking a chance on me and and trusting me with something so important gave me my first real taste of voice acting and game work and. Oh, and also so I had six sessions, but during one of the sessions Andrea was traveling to like Europe for various other dubs, you know languages and so Andrea Romano subbed, directing that session for me. And so it was yeah I know it was like this crazy dream chance to work with like two powerhouse female game directors and animation director directors in general, that it really was such a lucky chance for me. And it's that it's the experience that really jumpstarted my love for voice acting and gave me the confidence in my early days that maybe I could really do this. And so I really have to I will always, always credit her with being the first one in voice over and in the game to take a chance on me.
Kaili Vernoff [01:11:57] So that is such a beautiful story. I love stories like that. We all need someone to give me an opportunity like that. Absolutely. And how about, you Noshir.
Noshir Dalal [01:12:09] Oh, man.
Noshir Dalal [01:12:14] Well, I don't know. I don't know if this is just the way it happened to pan out or what. But I've umm. Almost all of my big breaks have come from women in the industry, which is super cool.
Noshir Dalal [01:12:30] So my first mocap gig ever was on The Order: 1886. I was brought in to do combat because the stunt coordinator at the time had been introduced to me and he was like, oh, you can do combat and you can act. Let's let's let's bring him in. And Jackie. Jackie Schreiber, who's now Jackie Sladek, was running casting over at Sony and.
Noshir Dalal [01:12:55] Ended up bringing me in for.
Noshir Dalal [01:12:58] I mean, everything I can I can possibly think of for years and now she runs side L.A. and her and her team have been so supportive and amazing to both of us. I can't.
Noshir Dalal [01:13:13] I can't thank her enough for for giving me, my first shot, and then and then, regardless of all my antics and always breaking stuff on set still bringing me back.
Noshir Dalal [01:13:25] And then Ivy Eisenberg cast me in my first performance capture gig for Black Ops three. And then I think the other woman I would have to think would be. Kris Zimmerman Salter[0.4s] Absolutely.
Noshir Dalal [01:13:39] Yeah. I met her working on Spider-Man and.
Noshir Dalal [01:13:44] They at that point, Sony knew that I could do like a lot of creature stuff, so I would do like the combat in the body for like a Rhino and hammerhead and Tombstone and all that sort of stuff. But.
Kaili Vernoff [01:13:55] That is so cool.
Noshir Dalal [01:13:57] Yeah, it was it was a lot of fun all. But it was interesting because Sony, I think didn't really, like most of the folks there, didn't know that I was like actually a theater trained actor.
Noshir Dalal [01:14:11] And then in one day on set, they needed an extra body to say a line. And Kris, you know, was basically like do you think you can walk and talk at the same time?
Noshir Dalal [01:14:22] I hope so.
Sharon Muthu [01:14:23] You know, I could I could picture her saying yes.
Noshir Dalal [01:14:28] And and, you know, we did the scene and after she was like, hey, that was good. And I was like, thanks. You know, I'm. I'm actually an actor and, you know, getting into voiceover is something I've always been interested in. She was like she just kind of like went uh ok, and like just walked off. And then I think a couple weeks later, you know, my agent was like, hey, Kris, is calling you in to do voiceover stuff on Spider-Man. I ended up working on that a ton. And since then she's brought me in for other stuff.
Noshir Dalal [01:15:00] And she she really championed me and supported me.
Noshir Dalal [01:15:07] in a Wonderful, wonderful weather. So I'm very grateful to all three of those women did amazing things for me.
Sharon Muthu [01:15:12] I think that there's a through line between Andrea and Jackie and [01:15:18] Kris Zimmerman Salter [0.7s] and all these with these women who are just like true champions for their actors, like they are so giving and so willing, you know, to to to give you the chance to to let you shine.
Sharon Muthu [01:15:34] And I love that both of our careers began with that, like those power females who gave us a chance. You know?
Kaili Vernoff [01:15:44] I've love that, too. I love that, too. That is so cool. Well, OK, so we're pretty much done here. But I have this thing in capital letters that I wanted to ask you guys.
Kaili Vernoff [01:15:57] So I'm going to I'm going to do something that that just take a deep breath. I'm going to give you each, like, a sentence. And I want to. Or two.
Kaili Vernoff [01:16:05] How did you guys meet?
Kaili Vernoff [01:16:08] The short version.
Sharon Muthu [01:16:13] Yeah, the short version. We met through a mutual friend, which is the most boring cliche response ever.
Sharon Muthu [01:16:20] But there is a woman, our friend Trinity, who I had worked with in Chicago theater, and that then went on tour with Noshir in another theater production, Mary Zimmermann's Arabian Nights. And she moved to L.A. and was staying with me. And I didn't have a second set of house keys.
Sharon Muthu [01:16:44] I was just like, hey, go hang out with your friends and I'll let you in. You know, when I'm done with work and stuff tonight and Noshir brought her to my house and that's how we first met. He dropped her off. It was it was a it was a little bit more sordid than that. Like they went to Venice and. And the phone. The phone. This woman has like the worst travel luck ever. And her phone fell on the ocean because Noshir
Noshir Dalal [01:17:07] Because I threw her over my shoulder and.
Sharon Muthu [01:17:09] He has a tendency to pick people up and throw them over her shoulder. And so they couldn't find my number. And it was like the middle of the night. I didn't know where my friend was.
Sharon Muthu [01:17:17] And it was all this like that. It gets a little bit ridiculous, but we always say that we're we're very grateful the phone fell on the ocean cause we wouldn't have met otherwise.
Kaili Vernoff [01:17:26] So you just never know. You just never know when something that seems really bad might just be the best thing ever.
Sharon Muthu [01:17:35] And they're very. It's true. Eleven years and strong here.
Kaili Vernoff [01:17:39] So that is awesome. Do you have anything to add Noshir or do you think that was pretty well said?
Noshir Dalal [01:17:47] I think those pretty well said. I think and I think I loved her the moment I saw her.
Noshir Dalal [01:17:51] I'm very, very lucky.
Kaili Vernoff [01:17:54] That is the best.
Sharon Muthu [01:17:55] I keep you.
Kaili Vernoff [01:17:59] Well, I just adore you both. And I cannot thank you enough for making time for us today. The listeners are going to get so much from this. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you all.
Sharon Muthu [01:18:09] Pleasure. Yeah. Thank you for having us. And it's sort of like a little mutt. We always check off a little box on the milestone career moments that we get to do together. So first interview together.
Sharon Muthu [01:18:20] Check.
Kaili Vernoff [01:18:22] Check, check. I am so honored. Check and check. All right. Love you guys.
Sharon Muthu [01:18:27] We love you, too.
Noshir Dalal [01:18:28] Thanks so much Kailli.
Kaili Vernoff [01:18:29] OK, bye. Bye, guys.
[01:18:34] That was so fun. And if you want more of Sharon and Noshir, you can catch Sharon as Dr. Bellum and Agent Zari in season three of Carmen San Diego, which just dropped on Netflix. And they've already announced season four! And for all the Star Wars fans out there, you'll find Noshir playing Titan leader Varko Grey in Star Wars: Squadrons. And look out for Noshir and more games and animation coming out soon.
To keep up with all their new projects and to see how Nala’s training is going, check out our show notes for Sharon and Noshir’s socials.
Noshir and Sharon want to encourage everyone to please wear your masks. Be kind to one another. And for our American audience, they hope that you'll do your part as a citizen and vote in November's election.
And now some exciting news from the gameHERs.
OK, everyone. It is time to recognize women in all aspects of gaming for their dedication to creating content, building communities and empowering each other. The gameHERs Awards honors exceptional women in gaming in 17 different categories nominated by you, the gamers community. So it is your time to make your voice heard and vote for who you think should win each gameHERs award. Anyone can participate, so head to thegamehers.com. That’s the game hers dot com and click on awards to cast your vote. And be sure to tune in on November 19th to watch the awards show live on the gameHERs’ Twitch Channel. You know, I'll be watching and I cannot wait to see who wins. See you there.
Verta Maloney [01:20:06] Thanks for listening. Let's play was brought to you by the gamers. A community that connects all types of women gamers and welcomes every human who supports this. Let's Play was produced by Kaili Vernoff and co-produced by the gameHERs team, Laura Deutsche, Rebecca Dixon, Verta Maloney, Heather Ouida and Alexis Willcock with Sound Design done by Frank Verderosa. Please visit thegamehers.com for show notes to access exclusive bonus material and to learn more about the gameHERs community.
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