In this episode, Kaili Vernoff (Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2), interviews Mary Kenney, an award-winning writer and narrative designer. Mary has written for some of the industry's most celebrated games, including this year's smash hit Spider-Man: Miles Morales and The Walking Dead, The Final Season for which she just received a GLAAD Media Award nomination. Mary and Kaili discuss her roots in journalism, what it's like being named one of Forbes 30 Under 30 in gaming, her upcoming book about the women who built the industry, and so much more.
Check out Mary's website here:
www.marykgames.com
Follow Mary on Twitter here:
twitter.com/maryknews
For bonus questions with Mary and other Let's Play Guests, check out the*gameHERs website.
Find a transcript of this episode here.
In this episode, Kaili Vernoff (Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2), interviews Mary Kenney, an award-winning writer and narrative designer. Mary has written for some of the industry's most celebrated games, including this year's smash hit Spider-Man: Miles Morales and The Walking Dead, The Final Season for which she just received a GLAAD Media Award nomination. Mary and Kaili discuss her roots in journalism, what it's like being named one of Forbes 30 Under 30 in gaming, her upcoming book about the women who built the industry, and so much more.
Check out Mary's website here:
www.marykgames.com
Follow Mary on Twitter here:
twitter.com/maryknews
For bonus questions with Mary and other Let's Play Guests, check out the*gameHERs website.
Find a transcript of this episode here.
TRANSCRIPTS ARE GENERATED USING A COMBINATION OF SPEECH RECOGNITION SOFTWARE AND HUMAN TRANSCRIBERS, AND MAY CONTAIN ERRORS. PLEASE CHECK THE CORRESPONDING AUDIO BEFORE QUOTING IN PRINT.
Mary Kenney [00:00:00] But, you know, one of the the big themes of the game is anybody can be a hero and being yourself means being heroic. We're not all going to be Spiderman, but we do have skills we can use to make the world better.
Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:00:22] Welcome to Let's Play by the*gameHers, a podcast hosted by actress Kaili Vernoff. Fans know Kaili best as the fiery Susan Grimshaw in Red Dead Redemption 2 and Miranda Cowan in GTA V. Our series features some of the most informed and exciting people in the gaming industry today. Kaili and her guests discuss careers, gaming and so much more. If you like what you hear, be sure to check out the*gameHERs website to hear exclusive bonus material from each of our guests.
Kaili Vernoff [00:00:54] Hey, everybody, OK? This week, I got to speak with award-winning game writer Mary Kenney. Mary has written for some of the industry's most celebrated games, including this year's smash hit Spider-Man: Miles Morales and The Walking Dead, The Final Season for which she just received a GLAAD Media Award nomination. Mary and I discuss her roots in journalism, what it's like being named one of Forbes 30 Under 30 in gaming, her upcoming book about the women who built the industry, and so much more. You guys, Mary is super inspiring and this conversation filled me with joy. I can't wait to share it with you. Here we go.
Kaili Vernoff [00:01:30] Hello, Mary.
Mary Kenney [00:01:32] Hello.
Kaili Vernoff [00:01:34] Hello.
Mary Kenney [00:01:36] I was talking and I was muted. So, you know, awesome start.
Kaili Vernoff [00:01:41] I actually started recording the Zoom audio like five minutes ago by mistake. And I was so afraid to turn it off because I thought if I turn it off, do I have to send her a new link? Like that's how on tech-savvy I am.
Mary Kenney [00:01:54] I feel that way. I feel like everybody is like that with Zoom specifically, though, like someone this morning asked me to set up a zoom room and I was like, I don't... Like... a link? Like, what do you mean?
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:06] Oh, I have no idea what that is. Zero. Zero idea.
Mary Kenney [00:02:08] Nothing. I got nothing. So I just nodded encouragingly. It was really great.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:15] That covers a lot of ground, an encouraging nod.
Mary Kenney [00:02:18] It's all I got so that's good.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:22] Can I just say I'm so excited we're doing this? Like I, I feel like I'm like kind of your friend now.
Mary Kenney [00:02:28] Yeah. I'm so glad to be here. I'm glad to have you as a friend. Like it's.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:32] Yay!
Mary Kenney [00:02:33] I've been listening to the podcast and it's so much fun, and I'm so excited to be here and freaking out.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:39] Oh I'm freaking out. I'm so glad you're here and thank you for listening. Did you listen to Brenda?
Mary Kenney [00:02:46] Yes, I did. I did. And she's so cool. I was just sitting there like, wow, I am not ever going to be this cool.
Kaili Vernoff [00:02:53] No, you are this cool. But I'm... Well, I don't know. She's she's like her own league of cool. It's pretty it's pretty impressive. Her her cool level...
Mary Kenney [00:03:02] Yes, completely agree. Yeah. Well and also I've played just so much Red Dead 2. So that's double...
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:10] I love hearing that.
Mary Kenney [00:03:13] Yeah. The number of times I've just made a coffee on a hilltop and that game is a lot. So anyway, yeah, it's great.
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:21] You know what I do. I fish, I fish because no one will try to kill me generally.
Mary Kenney [00:03:27] Yeah well we haven't gotten river monsters yet. But you know one day.
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:33] Oh yeah that's right. Someone someone could release a river monster. OK, good. Well let's just dive into all things Mary then.
Mary Kenney [00:03:41] Cool. I'm ready.
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:44] So here's what I don't know: where did you grow up?
Mary Kenney [00:03:47] I grew up in Decatur, Indiana, which is a when I was growing up, there, it was a town of 10000.
Kaili Vernoff [00:03:57] Oh that's a tiny, tiny town.
Mary Kenney [00:03:58] Yeah, it is. It's a little bigger than that now, but it's it's tiny. And yet I grew up there. I knew I wanted to be a writer for most of my life, but didn't really decide on being a game writer till after college.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:13] Did you play games as a kid?
[00:04:15] Yes. Oh, yes.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:16] Oh you did?
Mary Kenney [00:04:17] The first game I played was Neverwinter Nights by Bioware on PC. And I was... I was an avid reader as a kid and video games blew my mind because it was like reading a book, but I got to be in it. And I loved that it became... It quickly became my favorite, you know, kind of mode of storytelling. It was books and video games kind of scratched the same itch for me. Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:04:46] What were your favorite kind of books to read when you were growing up?
Mary Kenney [00:04:49] Oh, gosh. Probably fantasy featured prominently, so I loved anything by Tamara Pierce was high on the list. I like the Dragon Land series. I got into urban fantasy, like The Dresden Files when I was a little older. And then, you know, just some of the good classics that I read over and over, like Charlotte's Web and To Kill a Mockingbird. Those are... Those are probably the most that I read.
Kaili Vernoff [00:05:21] Do you know what's kind of crazy is that I had never read To Kill a Mockingbird until this summer, and I didn't even realize it. I thought I had read it. And my daughter, it was her summer reading after eighth grade. And she was like, Mom, you would love this book. I'm like, I've read this book. And then I thought about it and I thought, I think... I think I've read this book, but I don't think I've read this book, and I read the book and it was like I definitely had not read it. Yeah. You know, was it was pretty... To know so much about a book because it's so in the culture and... I don't even think I'd seen the movie all the way through, but I'd certainly seen scenes from it and I think I thought I knew what this book was and I... I did not. And then I read it and it really was like an incredible experience to be an adult reading it for the first time.
Mary Kenney [00:06:07] Oh, I bet. Yeah, I think I read it first when I was probably too young to read it. I didn't really get everything, but I've read and reread it a few times and it's just phenomenal. I also had that exact, that exact same experience with The Fugitive recently where I was talking about with a friend. And, you know, I was like, well, I've obviously seen that movie. Everybody's seen that movie. And then actually said to a friend...
Kaili Vernoff [00:06:31] That's a good movie. I've seen that movie. That's a good movie.
Mary Kenney [00:06:33] I sat down to watch it. I was like, I don't think I've seen this movie. I think I've watched clips from this movie and seen gifs from this movie. And that's it. You know, I watch the whole thing. It was like, this is phenomenal! Why didn't I see the sooner?!
Kaili Vernoff [00:06:48] You know, I used to have a name for this kind of a thing, which I would call The Color Purple Syndrome, which is where, like, people tell you something is so great and everybody says you'd love it and you should see it....and it almost gives me a little obstinance and I don't even realize it. But for whatever reason, I choose something else. And yeah, I still have not seen The Color Purple, although I saw it on Broadway and it took my breath away, I was just like a puddle in my chair.
Mary Kenney [00:07:13] Oh yeah, I oh that sounds phenomenal. That would, I would be a mess. I would be crying every time.
Kaili Vernoff [00:07:20] Yeah that...that Cynthia Erivo was doing the role on Broadway. Because you're a Broadway you're a Broadway fan?
Mary Kenney [00:07:27] I am. Yes. I my one recently... Actually the exact same thing I do that abstinence thing to one of my editors. I'm her name is Megan Brown. She's at IDW, she was recommending Hadestown to me. And, you know, I didn't say no. I just like, yeah, sure, OK, whatever. But but kind of pushing off for the exact same reason, which is there is no reason. And I finally sat down to listen to it and I was like, this is phenomenal. And then I couldn't shut up about it. And I kept texting all my friends, they listened to it too. So that is my... Not even guilty pleasure, but latest non-guilty pleasure.
Kaili Vernoff [00:08:06] I never saw it. I haven't listened to it.
Mary Kenney [00:08:09] It's so good.
Kaili Vernoff [00:08:10] OK, all right. Actually, I will. I will listen to it.
Kaili Vernoff [00:08:13] OK, so you grew up, you're reading, you play games and you're you're already finding how those things are two... Two sources of inspiration in your life. And I know... So I don't know the order in which you did these things, but I know you went to NYU Tisch to their gaming program. And I also know that you got a degree in journalism in Indiana, right?
Mary Kenney [00:08:32] Yes. So brief recap order.
Kaili Vernoff [00:08:36] Gimme... Give it to me.
Mary Kenney [00:08:38] I went to Indiana University and got my degree in journalism because I wanted to be a writer. But, you know, I come from a pragmatic Midwestern family. That's like if you're going to write, it needs to be very practical. You know, we don't do creative writing in this family. So I got my journalism degree and I was a journalist for a few years, and that's when I applied to grad school -- the game design program at NYU in their game center -- got in, did a year, and then became a full-time game writer.
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:13] OK. I'm going to back up just a little because I actually I actually spent the morning reading a lot of your journalistic pieces in The New York Times and in Salon. And my God, you are an incredible journalist. I mean, you know, these were topics ranging from like, you know, gang rape in India and loneliness on the PGA Tour and like the booming tech industry in Provo, Utah. And I was really... I mean, just impressed, just wildly impressed at your skill.
Mary Kenney [00:09:46] Thank you.
Kaili Vernoff [00:09:46] And I wondered... It's you know... Well, you're welcome. And I'm wondering if journalism still calls to you in a certain way or if you were happy to put that down when things shifted for you to gaming.
Mary Kenney [00:09:58] The thing that I love most about journalism is being able to indulge my curiosity on a number of topics. So like like you said, I got to kind of hop around a little bit if something interested me. I pitched it and I wrote about it and I still get to do that with games. Luckily, you know, there are so many levels...I've I've written or helped design that I have to understand how a city pipe system works. I have to understand, you know, just all these how home defense works, like all of these strange things that I get to look up. So that part of it, I still get to do. The part I probably miss the most is getting to talk to people. So, you know, I I focused a lot on long-form and feature journalism, which meant very long interviews. With the PGA Tour. I was actually with her for the entire summer traveling, laying around, and watching her play, but also just sitting in her hotel room and sharing microwave food with her and talking to her, so I definitely miss that part a lot. But the curiosity part is still there. The just getting to write about random things is still there.
Kaili Vernoff [00:11:12] Yeah. I mean, it's... It is an incredible tool that you have in your tool kit that, you know, that you can expand your writing with digging into these subjects. OK, so then you find yourself at NYU Tisch for their gaming program, and what was that like?
Mary Kenney [00:11:29] So it was very it's very interesting. It's an MFA program, but it's so hands-on because all of the people who teach in it, you know, have made games and some of them still make games. And they know that the process of making games is extremely collaborative and very hands-on. So, you know, kind of the...Our mode there was always try things fast, let yourself fail, throw it out, try again, which has pretty much mapped my experience in games as well. So that's good.
Kaili Vernoff [00:12:00] Yeah, that's really good. Say that again.
Mary Kenney [00:12:03] Try things out fast. Let them fail. Throw them out. Try again.
Kaili Vernoff [00:12:08] That's really a phenomenal mantra.
Mary Kenney [00:12:10] Yeah. They had a much I think, pithier way of saying it. But it is... it's such a good guide. I think we were... You know, I would have weeks where I had four games due. I mean, they were small but still like four games due this week and two next week and an essay next week. And it was very, very quick and very collaborative. And the MFA class is only about 30 people. So we, you know, we also bonded over how much work we were doing. And for all of those reasons, I'm so glad I went there before joining games. I think it set me up really well and kind of gave me a grounding in some of the history of games, which I wouldn't have had otherwise.
Kaili Vernoff [00:12:56] Yeah. And what was the... What was the sort of gender makeup of the thirty people in your class? Did it skew male?
Mary Kenney [00:13:03] It a little bit, but actually in the MFA class it was closer to fifty-fifty. I don't have an exact but it was pretty good. It was because... Well and I say fifty-fifty but there are also folks who are non-binary and you know so it's forty-nine-one... The numbers are a little more granular than that. But, and the reason for that, I actually talked to Eric Zimmerman, one of the co-founders of the program about this. And they really did that outreach on purpose. You know, they knew early on wow we're skewing know very, very male and we're skewing very white. And we want to expand that. And we want you know, we want future game developers. We want the industry to be full of diverse creators. So so there was a, you know, a real effort to reach out to other groups. And I think it certainly paid off in the master's program. And I think they were starting to work on that in the bachelor's program as well when I was there.
Kaili Vernoff [00:14:07] I would think that that being in a games program in New York City would be sort of a great place to to feel inspired. I just I mean, I live here, so I'm a little biased. But, I mean, there's just there's there's so much to draw from, and especially with all of those great urban landscapes that are in a lot of these superhero things that you seem to be... Find yourself involved with.
Mary Kenney [00:14:32] Yes. Yeah. I loved New York. I still miss New York. And after I left a year later, Spider-Man came out, the first Spider-Man game and I played it. And I you know, I had that like, oh, there it is. I miss you. So, you know, nod to the team for getting it right, because it made me miss New York right away. It was it was a fantastic place to collaborate. I mean, you know, there are just so many cool little like restaurants and cafes or we could all sketch out our ideas and talk about paper prototypes for games, which was amazing. Yeah, I love everything about that city. The energy was so great for joining a creative program because really that was also my first time focusing on fiction. Before that I had been a nonfiction writer. So to be diving into both game design and fiction at the same time while in New York City was really exciting for sure.
Kaili Vernoff [00:15:30] I bet. I bet that was just a really heady time in your development.
Mary Kenney [00:15:35] Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:15:36] Yeah. OK, so at some point you end up at Telltale games and you're working on The Walking Dead.
Mary Kenney [00:15:41] Yes.
Kaili Vernoff [00:15:43] Was that pretty soon after coming out of the program?
Mary Kenney [00:15:46] Yes, so the way that happened: I did a year at NYU and then I did their internship program, and then they said, "hey," Sorry, that's my dog, one sec.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:00] My husband's walking my dog right now because last week I was doing an interview and he barked and circled my booth nonstop and was very distracting.
Mary Kenney [00:16:07] Perfect. OK. She's chilling. All right.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:13] I yelled at him at one point and then I was like, oh, my gosh, my editor's going to hear that I yelled at my dog and I'm such a non-yeller.
Mary Kenney [00:16:20] Oh no! Actually. Can I grab her real quick?
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:22] Yes, go. Go grab.
Mary Kenney [00:16:28] OK, thank you. She...the mailman came. How dare he. So...
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:34] So rude. What is your dog's name?
Mary Kenney [00:16:36] Her name is Nell.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:37] Oh hi Nell.
Mary Kenney [00:16:39] She came with me in New York to you know, she's been here that whole darn time.
Kaili Vernoff [00:16:43] Oh, I love that. OK, OK. So you're telling me how you ended up at Telltale?
Mary Kenney [00:16:48] OK, so I did a year at NYU and then I did the internship program at Telltale and then after those three and a half months they said, hey, you should really stay forever. And I said, that sounds great.
Kaili Vernoff [00:17:03] Yeah.
Mary Kenney [00:17:04] Yeah so I hopped on to... I became a full time Telltale employee in August of 2017 and I was immediately on The Walking Dead. So I until then I had been on Batman: the Enemy Within while I was an intern. And then I switched on to preproduction for Walking Dead. Right.
Kaili Vernoff [00:17:25] What... Did that just feel like one of those life moments just where you're hitting your stride, where it's all coming together?
Mary Kenney [00:17:33] It did. And it was also very nerve-wracking because, you know, I had a year left to get my master's degree and it was really hard to choose because I loved NYU and being there. But I also had gone to NYU to become a game writer and had the opportunity become a game writer. So it...
Kaili Vernoff [00:17:54] Oh, so it was a two-year program. But after one year you were offered this job and so you had to make that choice.
Mary Kenney [00:18:00] Right. And so it was... it was fantastic. But also it was really nerve-wracking. And, you know, I emailed a bunch of my professors and asked them what I should do. I talked to a lot of friends and pretty much the advice across the board was like, well, what's the thing that really excites you more? Because that's where you're going to do your best work, right? If you... If you pick one because you think you should, but you're not actually excited about it. You're not you're not going to do anything... you're not going to live up to your potential with it. So I did decide to say it Telltale, and I'm glad I did, because Walking Dead was such a great experience. I had, at that point, I had already been writing on a game, an indie game for about a year. But this was my first time being in the studio and really part of the development. And it was phenomenal. And at the same time, I was making that choice, I was a month away from getting married. So it was all happening at the same time.
Kaili Vernoff [00:18:59] Oh my God. Oh, God, that's everything all at once. Poor Nell!
Mary Kenney [00:19:05] Right? I know... We got married and then my brand new husband had to drive across the country literally with Nell in the back seat.
Kaili Vernoff [00:19:13] So that sounds actually like an amazing experience. It must have been just totally disorienting when Telltale just all of a sudden shuddered.
Mary Kenney [00:19:25] Yeah, it there wasn't there wasn't a lot of forewarning. I mean, there really was almost no forewarning there. You know, our our CEO at the time, he was pretty open with us about, you know, the fact that he was talking to different people about funding and what was coming up next for the the company. But I don't think any of us realized that this was a possibility for it to shut down like that. We had.... When we shut down, we'd had layoffs a year before, which were heartbreaking. But then the shut down was really shocking. And, you know, we were there that day. And the first thing that happened when I got in at 9:00 a.m. was all the meetings disappeared off our calendars.
Kaili Vernoff [00:20:10] Oh, my God, that oh, my heart just went in my throat just hearing it.
Mary Kenney [00:20:15] Yeah. And then so we're like, well, you know, what's going on? And then we all had a mandatory meeting at noon and we still don't know what's going on. And yeah, it was just kind of waiting to see what happened. And then it was... It was really emotional. But one thing about Telltale, everybody was really, really close there. You know, especially the creative team was really tight, so... the announcement, we have, this meeting, they tell us, hey, we're shutting down, you know, this is it, you're going to have to pack up your things and come get them on Monday. And all of Telltale floods, the streets of this small town in the in North Bay in the San Francisco area. And we all go to the same restaurant and the same bar... Just alright. All two hundred of us just took it over. We're going to have all of the sweets we want and...
Kaili Vernoff [00:21:19] Oh, wow. So so how, so my understanding of the story and you'll tell me if I get any of this wrong, is that what happened was then Skybound picked up The Walking Dead series and then they brought you back for the final season. Is that right? That's... Is that what happened?
Mary Kenney [00:21:40] So I actually wasn't brought back, but because it was a much smaller team that was brought back to finish it. But part of that is also just because writing does our work so much sooner than everybody else, because they need time to implement the things we put down.
Kaili Vernoff [00:21:58] Yes, right. Of course.
Mary Kenney [00:21:59] So I had.... So so the way that that timing happened, which was also like a nail-biter, was we had already... There are four episodes in walking to the final season and we'd already put out episode one. And then my episode, the one I was lead writer of, was supposed to come out and it did come out the Tuesday after the closure. So for me, I was kind of... Not coasting, but I was taking a little bit of a break and I was about to take vacation when when Telltale closed because my episode was was finally about to come out that next week. So the episodes did still come out on that Tuesday. And then the big question was, all right, we got two episodes. Are we getting the other two? And at that point, Episode three had already been written and a lot of it had already been created. It wasn't completely finished and polished, but it was a lot of it was was playable. And four: we had written a lot of scripts already, but we hadn't started building it yet. So I didn't come back to finish the season. But but Skybound did pick it up and they did use those scripts. So, you know, it's a little bit like Schrodinger's writer. It was both there and not there.
Kaili Vernoff [00:23:20] But no. You had done your work and you just got a longer vacation than you were planning on taking.
Mary Kenney [00:23:29] Well, and I did the thing that I recommend no one do when... When if you're either laid off of your studio closes, which is, you know, I got to within a couple of weeks, I had a few offers to freelance on games and I took them all, which was maybe not the best choice, because at one point I was working on six games at the same time and I was like...
Kaili Vernoff [00:23:50] Oh, Mary.
Mary Kenney [00:23:50] I should maybe have not done this.
Kaili Vernoff [00:23:55] But I understand the impulse. It's like you go from this thing that feels like a steady thing. And so you sort of want to make sure that you, you know, grab the opportunities that are coming your way.
Mary Kenney [00:24:05] Exactly. And and luckily, I got to sit back a little bit. I took a contract with Certain Affinity who's in Austin, and they were so great. And I got to go out and work with them and focus exclusively on them until I started...
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:20] Oh Austin is so great. I got married in Austin. It's such an incredible city.
Mary Kenney [00:24:24] Yeah. I had never been there. I didn't I... It was just like the the book thing and the movie thing where someone tells you to do it and you get obstinate for no reason. People had told me for years that Austin was phenomenal and I was like, yeah, sure, OK.
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:36] You're like, no, I have Color Purple Syndrome about this.
Mary Kenney [00:24:41] Right! And then I went there and I was like, why did I do that to myself? It's fantastic.
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:46] I know usually people tell you things are great for a reason. I don't know why that translated like pressure to me.
Mary Kenney [00:24:54] Yeah, I guess.
Kaili Vernoff [00:24:55] And The Walking Dead, the final season was nominated for a GLAAD media award this year.
Mary Kenney [00:25:00] Yes. Yes, it was.
Kaili Vernoff [00:25:02] So how meaningful was that for you?
Mary Kenney [00:25:04] So that was huge personally, because from preproduction, you know, we were all sitting in a room trying to figure out what the story of the final season would be. And I said, I think a big part of the story is going to be about Clementine finding a home and Clementine not having to be on the run and fighting anymore, you know, she's also a teenager, an older teenager. And I think an important part of her story is, you know, kind of building this family around her. I think we should offer romances or really close friendships to that end. And I think you know it's important to when we we offer, the romances to offer her LGBT romance as well. So that's kind of how it started. A lot of people have asked me if there was pushback in the studio. There wasn't, that anybody told me about anyway. But no people on the creative team were very supportive of it. And, you know, I did...
Kaili Vernoff [00:26:06] Well, it says a lot about them that you felt like you had a voice to just, you know, to, you know, to put it out there.
Mary Kenney [00:26:13] Absolutely. It didn't feel like a fight. It wasn't like taking a risk. It was it was just saying, hey, I think this would make the story and Clementine's whole journey better. And everybody went, yeah, it obviously would, which is great. And then I did I wrote the romance between Clementine and Violet. And that was really personal because I myself am bisexual. And I grew up, you know, in a part of the country and in a church that does not accept that at all. And coming out to myself and then later to my family was really difficult and really important to just my development as a person. So being able to put in a video game, you know, Clementine realizing this about herself, Clementine being able to find love with another woman and also presenting that as it's OK, you know, it's not this weird thing. We're not. We're not...there's... We're not going to do the bury your gays trope, we're not going to do... It's not a whole story about being LGBT and having trauma because of that. It's a good part of her story. This romance is better for her. It's making her life better. And that was really important to me.
Kaili Vernoff [00:27:43] You know, my best friend from college is a guy named Peter Paige who created The Fosters. And he was one of the stars of Queer as Folk on Showtime. And he directed a film for FreeForm this year. It was like like a romance for Valentine's Day called There's Something About Harry.
Mary Kenney [00:28:02] Yeah. Mm hmm.
Kaili Vernoff [00:28:04] Yeah. And, you know, I...when he came into town for a screening, I was his guest and he was just talking about how important it was to have like, his favorite genre, which is a rom com out there, you know, with a gay relationship. And there's there's no, like, trauma porn. It's not about that. It's meet cute.
Mary Kenney [00:28:24] Yes.
Kaili Vernoff [00:28:24] You know?Yeah. And I think... you know, I read some feedback about that and what it meant to some of the fans of that game. And I think it must have been so rewarding for you to get that kind of feedback that it meant something to people, that it meant so much to people.
Mary Kenney [00:28:45] It was. And it still does. Honestly, I still you know, people will send me their fan art when they draw it. And, yeah, it blew me away, honestly, because, you know, any time you make something like this, you risk people being angry at you about it. And I got a little bit of that, too. But it's so outweighed by the number of people who said this matters so much to me. One story, I'm like tearing it up as I even think about it. One woman, she... I think she's 17. She said she played through the second episode of the season with her dad to explain to him, you know, this this is how I feel and I'm bi. And she had never been able to tell him before. But being able to share this experience in a game really helped her open up to him and helped them talk about it. And that... I'm tearing up... that meant so much to me. Like that's what I think media at its best can do. Right? It helps us see ourselves and our world a little more kindly and a little more, you know, open our minds a little bit. And if that helped anybody, you know, realize this about themselves or talk to family members about it, that's. That's the goal. That's the best version of making anything, right? So, it did. It meant so much to me to be able to work on that, and to be able to work on that. As my first, you know, full time in-studio job was... It was a lot it was overwhelming in a good way, for sure.
Kaili Vernoff [00:30:23] Didn't you actually commemorate the Clementine inviolate relationship in ink?
Mary Kenney [00:30:28] I did. I have a tattoo. I have this big tattoo that I got done in Louisville, Kentucky. And it's... It's so colorful and it definitely dominates my arm. You can't miss it. So, yeah... Like I said, it meant a lot to me and I really wanted to slap that on there.
Kaili Vernoff [00:30:50] I think that's incredible that you're carrying that with you as you, you know, as you move on. So, OK, so you come to Insomniac in 2018.
Mary Kenney [00:31:01] Yes.
Kaili Vernoff [00:31:03] So how did you realize that you were working on this new Spider-Man?
Mary Kenney [00:31:08] So day one, but not before. So I interviewed with them. Let's see... In November. Yes, in November. Oh no. It must have been October because they told me I got the job in November and then I started in. March, the beginning of March, and on my first day, they're like, OK, so you're on the Miles project and I went "Whaaaat!" Because Miles was my favorite character in Spider-Man. And when I came in in person to interview, Brian Intihar, who was the creative director on Spider-Man asked, OK, so you've played Spider-Man. You know, we've all read your Twitter, you're gushing about it. If you had to pitch, what would your next kind of spinoff be from that or what would the sequel be? You know, what would you pitch? And I said, Oh, you know what? I would do a game about Miles because I love Miles. He's my favorite. He's so cool. And later Brian Intihar told me, like, he had to fight to keep a straight face.
Kaili Vernoff [00:32:15] Wow. That... Talk about meant to be.
Mary Kenney [00:32:18] Exactly. So my first day I freaked out. You know, I read through all our docs and I was so excited and then just drove straight into production and started writing a lot.
Kaili Vernoff [00:32:33] Is there I know you can't tell me much about about this incredible project, but is there anything you can tell me just about how it feels to bring your voice to like a new set of characters in this iconic franchise?
Mary Kenney [00:32:45] Yeah, I think one of the big differentiators is writing about teenagers. So I had just done this on Walking Dead... It's part of the reason they were interested in bringing me on for Miles Morales But, you know, one of the big themes of the game is anybody can be a hero and being yourself means being heroic. So being able to paint not just adults and, you know, brilliant scientists as heroes, but teenagers using their skill sets to make the world a little better. And Rio, Miles's mom as well, just using the skills that you have to improve the world a little bit is a big theme in the game. And being able to work on that and create a bunch of different characters with different skill sets was really important. And I think a good message in 2020 as well, right?
Kaili Vernoff [00:33:45] Yeah.
Mary Kenney [00:33:46] We're not all going to be Spider-Man, but we are, we do have skills we can use to make the world better.
Kaili Vernoff [00:33:54] That's awesome. Now I have chills everywhere. What...I know for me, for, you know, I worked on RDR2 for like four and a half years I was working on that game and I couldn't say anything. So so obviously, that was also years before there was an announcement. So, I mean, the NDA was intense, you know, like if if you did want to, you know, get fresh air, you couldn't walk out in your shoes because, you know, we are wearing like Western boots. And in case, even though it was fenced in, in case someone had a drone come over or like, I don't even know, like I don't even know what we were protecting against, like, people like peeking underneath the fence. But, like, it was really intense. And I couldn't... I couldn't talk to my husband about it. I I developed what I've... What I've come to call my one...my my catch-all phrase was I would say to my friends, I'm working on my secret job. I wouldn't even say video game because I just didn't know enough about video games to know if I would give something away by accident because I didn't know what people were looking for. So I would just say secret job.
Mary Kenney [00:35:09] Yeah. Going home for Christmas that first year I worked iatn Insomniac, my family was like, are you a spy? Like, what is it, you can't tell us what you're working on? I was like no, you'll know sometime.
Mary Kenney [00:35:26] And it's so funny too, because the run time is so much longer, right? Like triple-A games take years to make. That's a long time to not tell anybody what you're working on. It's definitely... It's different and, you know, the way that I kind of saved myself was writing a bunch of comics last year so I could tell people about that. So the'd be like, oh, what are you working on? Well, it's a big secret, but I'm also writing My Little Pony so I can talk about that. And that's how I got through it.
Kaili Vernoff [00:35:54] By the way. I love that you're writing My Little Pony. It's so interesting because I was just looking at my notes here while you were talking, and I was thinking about you writing for My Little Pony. And I thought, what's an amazing... Well, I don't know. I'm guessing, but but I would imagine that writing for children because write these comic books for kids are parables generally, and they are a way of letting kids express... and I don't even know if it's express, but sort of meditate on what they're frightened of and what they care about and what is happening in their life without without laying it out expressly. And I thought that must be so rewarding.
Mary Kenney [00:36:36] I love it. I didn't know when I first started writing on it, I didn't know how much I would love it. And I really, really do. It's being able to explore some of the fears that I mean, we all have, right? Like some of the things that I've pitched to ICDW are things like fear of being alone, fear of disappointing your family. You know, what is it like to talk through your grief? What is it like... And things like that that we all are still afraid of. But with kids, in some ways you can be a little more honest. You could just say this is what we're talking about.
Kaili Vernoff [00:37:14] Yes, that's interesting.
Mary Kenney [00:37:15] Yeah. With adults, you often have to use more subtext, right? And kind of edge your way into that. But with kids, you're just like, no, this is the topic of the week, which has been really rewarding. The comic I have coming out in December: I love it so much because it's about... without giving away the ending... But it is about one of the ponies is very afraid of disappointing her parents. She... All of her interests are very different than theirs. Her dreams for her life are very different than how they live their lives. And, you know, getting to work on that, pitching that like, you know, that's something that I've worried about as an adult let alone as a kid. So, you know, letting kids know it's it's OK to be yourself, even if that self is different from everyone around you felt really good, for sure.
Kaili Vernoff [00:38:11] How does that feel? The idea that your parents will read that and know that it came from your heart?
Mary Kenney [00:38:17] Oh, goodness. I hadn't even thought of that. You're getting my reaction.
Kaili Vernoff [00:38:20] Oh, whoops! No, don't think about it.
Mary Kenney [00:38:26] My my mom will probably just be super sappy about it because she is about everything I write and how excited she is. But, you know, my my mom has always been really supportive of whatever I wanted to do. So it's a little bit like, hey, I had this pressure with some family members and some friends, but not you, just FYI.
Kaili Vernoff [00:38:48] Right. Yes. Yes. You're not reading about yourself here.
Mary Kenney [00:38:52] Yeah, it's not you, Mom. I promise.
Kaili Vernoff [00:38:56] So full disclosure, I actually first became aware of you when your book deal was announced. Um, so, you know, this podcast is hosted by the*gameHERs, which is this new platform, and their mission is to elevate the voices of women in the gaming space. And so it really caught my attention when I read the blurb about this, the new book, Game Changers. And I'm just going to read this for people who haven't seen it. But the blurb said Mary Kenney's debut Game Changers, which shines a light on over two dozen women and genderqueer people who built the video game industry and their often overlooked contributions to the booming world of gaming.
Mary Kenney [00:39:38] Yes
Kaili Vernoff [00:39:40] And I was like, I have to talk to her!
Mary Kenney [00:39:42] Well I'm so glad! Yeah, it's... It's been a journey. I've been working on it now. Goodness. A little over a year with Eric Smith, who is my literary agent, and... it's honestly, I knew a little bit about... I knew some video game history, I had kind of a broad strokes -- Oh, Roberta Williams and Carol Shaw, like they're some of the game developers who were working in the 70s and 80s, which people can sometimes overlook. But as I really dug into it for this book, several people, when I tell them I'm working on this book, say, oh, that must be so hard to find these people. But really, it's the harder thing has been picking like what all gets to go into the book because there were a lot of women there. At one point I was I was working on just a first draft list of all the women I could feature, and it was over 60. So it's... which would become an encyclopedia pretty fast.
Kaili Vernoff [00:40:50] I, I know that we talked about Brenda Romero, who I spoke with earlier in this season. And I think the thing that she said that shocked me the most was that nobody called her a female game designer until like the mid 90s.
Mary Kenney [00:41:02] Right. I mean, the the mood also very much shifted on it. It's kind of a, you know, like an urban myth, although it's not a myth, that programming was originally more of a woman-dominated field and then it shifted as technology grew and more people wanted to work on computers and it became a male-,dominated field. But there were a lot of women programmers in the 70s and 80s and even earlier and getting to dive in and see these women who didn't even at the time, really think of themselves as exceptional for being the only woman at their game company or one of three women at their game company has been really interesting. And just, you know, these are the kind of names that I want to become household names, right? Like there are a lot of titans in our industry who you say, oh, I talked to this guy, or this guy who was on TV and people who care about and love games know that name right away. And I feel like these women should be too. They've been making games a long time. They've made some really popular games.
Kaili Vernoff [00:42:14] I also didn't know until speaking with Brenda that that Hedy Lamarr invented the Internet.
Mary Kenney [00:42:22] Yeah. Yeah. I didn't either. Then someone sent me an article. I was like, hey, is this? This should go in your...And then some of the other like fun facts I guess, I mean...
Kaili Vernoff [00:42:32] Tell me fun facts!
Mary Kenney [00:42:33] Jenga was invented by a woman. Monopoly was invented by a woman.
Kaili Vernoff [00:42:38] Stop it.
Mary Kenney [00:42:39] Yeah. I kid you not.
Kaili Vernoff [00:42:42] My husband still plays Monopoly like every single day on like an old Kindle.
Mary Kenney [00:42:46] I love Monopoly. And a lot of game designers, like I've heard many pitches for making Monopoly better at this point. It's like a thing that people do. But yeah, Lizzie Magie was the inventor of Monopoly and Leslie Scott is the inventor of Jenga. And, you know, I mean, two of the most popular games out there.
Kaili Vernoff [00:43:11] I think after speaking with you today, I'm thinking that this book is bringing together, like, literally everything you're passionate about. I mean, obviously gaming and, you know, representation for women. But also you get to use your finely-tuned journalistic impulses to dig into this, you know, the inception of this industry you love.
Mary Kenney [00:43:30] Yeah, it has been so much. I mean, the research honestly, this must be the nerdiest thing on this podcast. But like, the research has been just as fun as writing it, like just getting to read about all these women and listening to their, you know, their GDC talks and their interviews and things like that because they're so inspiring. Like one thing I've always heard about the Game Developers Conference, and I agree, is it's like that yearly you go up there and you just get inspired. And you're away from your desk, you're not just trying to make something out of nothing for a week. You just get to talk about what's next in the industry, what is cool about our industry. And that's what working on this book feels like constantly. It's like: this is the past, but also some of the things that these women were passionate about are things we're still talking about and trying to figure out right now. And it is, it's such a boost, when I look away from making games, like...
Kaili Vernoff [00:44:31] I feel like you should make a game about the women starting the game industry.
Mary Kenney [00:44:37] Oh, man, I can picture it. I have to now. It's all I'm going to think about.
Kaili Vernoff [00:44:41] And I'm going to play one of these women.
Mary Kenney [00:44:43] Yes, obviously. Clearly, you'll have your contract by the end of the day.
Kaili Vernoff [00:44:50] And we know I can I... We know I could keep it secret, although we've just given it all away. But Mary and I are working on a secret job. Nobody tell.
Mary Kenney [00:45:00] But yeah, like, you know, it's it it's been so much fun to dive into the history and think about all the things that they were thinking about and know that I'm part of this tradition. Like we keep asking -- Well, we don't -- But some people keep asking, well, should women really be making games? And the answer is yes. And the answer is yes.
Kaili Vernoff [00:45:20] That's exhausting. That is exhausting that people are still asking.
Mary Kenney [00:45:24] It is, and the answer is like not only yes, but we've been doing it a long time. Like to know that you come from this heritage of making games feels really good, like it's not all that radical that I am a woman game designer because a bunch of women already have been. So it's. Yeah, it's been really...
Kaili Vernoff [00:45:45] So catch up, people.
Mary Kenney [00:45:46] Yeah. Come on, read my book, and then you'll get it.
Kaili Vernoff [00:45:51] So here's a very cool thing to to celebrate you a little further. So Forbes just named you one of their famed 30 under 30 in gaming, and I loved their description under the heading, which said that "30 under 30 who are leading a technological and artistic revolution."
Mary Kenney [00:46:11] Yeah, no pressure.
Kaili Vernoff [00:46:13] That's pretty badass. So what kind of... What does that kind of recognition really mean to you? How do you take that in?
Mary Kenney [00:46:24] It was, you know, being named 30 under 30 was it's even hard to wrap my head around now. It's so easy to I think it stuck in our own tunnels as creators, right? Like the next game and the next project and the next comic. But something like this reminds me that those things that I'm making, the things I'm collaborating on with teams, there is a bigger audience, there's a wider reach, there's a bigger world out there that cares. I mean, that's the biggest thing that like, I'm not just doing all this work, pouring into a project and then we're done. It's time for another project. It is -- you know -- people care about this thing that I'm making or the next thing I'm making or the things I'm saying in in interviews. And that that really helps me keep going when I get, you know, like anybody else tired or burnt out or... just wondering why why does it matter? Well, this is why. This is the impact that you can have. And so this is partially going back to the book, but also talking about Forbes: one of the catalysts for me wanting to work on the book was I taught a class at my undergrad alma mater, Indiana, for teenagers, teenage girls doing a week-long kind of workshop, on like: so you want to make games. Here is what it means to make games. And when it was time for the Q&A session with them, all they wanted to ask about was Gamergate. And the reason they did it was because they wanted to know if that was their future, right? It wasn't them just wanting to talk about the dramatic thing. It was "I love games. I want to make games. But if I'm going to make games, do all I have, you know, is it all I have to look forward to is something like Gamergate happening to me?"
Kaili Vernoff [00:48:23] So I'm going to ask you, because I only have a vague understanding of what that is, and I'm not even sure if I'm right at what I'm thinking: tell me about Gamergate.
Mary Kenney [00:48:31] Sure. Yeah, it's it's hard to, to boil it down in a nutshell, but the... I guess the simplest way to wrap one's head around it is for years women and other marginalized people in games were harassed online. They were doxxed and it had a chilling effect, unfortunately. You know, we're not so much in the midst of Gamergate now, but it did empower a vocal minority who believe that harassing people is OK, and that's, that's why being on the Forbes list, you know, getting being out there and being proud of the things I'm making is really important to me because I want to show them that the vast majority of my job is phenomenal. The vast majority of fans that I talk to are incredible. I'm you know, I'm pretty active on social media and ninety-nine percent of my interactions have been great. I've made friends that way. I've heard from people who love games and love the things I've worked on, and that's that. Plus wanting to show these teenage girls that like, hey, it's not just what you've seen with Gamergate. There is so much more to the industry and to being in the industry and to being appreciated in the industry than you're getting to see right now, you know, I mean, Amy Hennig is is one of the people talked about in my book. And she's the first woman to get a lifetime achievement award from Game Developers Choice Awards. And that's not uncommon, right? Like there are women who have been succeeding in this industry. And that's something to look forward to also.
Kaili Vernoff [00:50:33] You know what? I'm I'm loving, I'm loving this answer, Mary, because literally, like I was I was going to ask you, like, if you feel like you're helping to lead a revolution, but it sounds like you are.
Mary Kenney [00:50:44] Yes, I certainly hope so. I, I really.
Kaili Vernoff [00:50:48] Yeah, you are.
Mary Kenney [00:50:48] I honestly do love getting to work in this industry. It's so rewarding in so many ways. And I... The last thing I want is for a few mean-spirited people to drive out really talented, passionate creators because they're afraid. And I don't blame them at all for feeling that way. But I don't want it to happen. I want them to be able to experience the beautiful parts of the industry, too. And, you know, just the excitement of launch day and of being on a team and have seen something come together. That's all, that's all part of our jobs, too. And it's the good part of it. You don't get to see as much, but it's there and it's it's so rewarding.
Kaili Vernoff [00:51:29] I was on set the day that the first trailer came out for our game and they stopped work and they brought us all into the volume and they played it for us. And yeah, I'll never forget it.
Mary Kenney [00:51:45] Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:51:45] I'll never, ever forget it. I, I mean, and also watching Roger's face, you know.
Mary Kenney [00:51:51] Oh yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:51:52] You know, it was really something, it was really something because, you know, to feel the collaboration that you were just describing all come together for something that I could take in visually. You know, having not been a gamer prior to this, I had no idea what to expect from the efforts of all the labor. And I have chills just talking about it. I'll never it.
Mary Kenney [00:52:18] Yeah. I mean, gosh, our announcement trailer, I mean, it blew me away too.
Kaili Vernoff [00:52:23] Oh, my God it's incredible! It's incredible.
Mary Kenney [00:52:27] It's so good. And I, you know, we so... I saw the trailer before it came out, but I knew the trailer was incredible. But the response to it, I, I was blown away by that too. I couldn't... You know, the millions of views are coming in and I was just sitting there like, what? That many? There are that many people? But, you know, and we had a big... Because of course, COVID has changed everything, but we had like a big zoom group of the entire development team. And then Nadji Jeter, who plays Miles, was on the Zoom as well and just watching his face light up as the announcement trailer was announced. And then afterward, you know, he thanked the whole team for getting to be a part of it. And it just so it was so emotional and so great because, I mean, you know, like game development ups and downs constantly for years, making things and then remaking things and then remaking things. So to finally see it all come together, gosh, it's so great.
Kaili Vernoff [00:53:33] It is so great. And I love that that that is the focus that you want for these these women.
Mary Kenney [00:53:39] Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:53:39] That, you know, like any industry, you know, there, there are there we are just you know...We are just still facing challenges.
Mary Kenney [00:53:49] Right,.
Kaili Vernoff [00:53:51] that feel past their, their expiration date, don't they?
Mary Kenney [00:53:55] Yeah, they do. And it's yeah, they do feel past their expiration date. It just feels like, you know, any argument to keep women out of a space is a dishonest one. We know that at this point. And yet they keep happening. But then I think that, you know, I guess wanting to be out here and really excited about making things and about this book is just the challenges aren't everything right? It's not like the challenge of being a woman in games is not constant people asking you, is it OK to be a woman in games? That doesn't actually happen to me very often anymore. And there's so much more to to doing this role and having this job. And I hope that the book can show that off because again, you know, the first game writer period, not even woman game writer, but the first game writer was a woman. Her name was Mabel Addis, and she was the writer on a game in the 60s in collaboration with MIT. And that's, you know, we belong here. We've always belonged here. I hope people can take that away from the book and from things like 30 under 30 that I think are great are showing us off. And, you know, this year's 30 under 30 in games with such a diverse group of people. And I think that's so exciting.
Kaili Vernoff [00:55:25] That is so exciting.
Mary Kenney [00:55:26] It's a great future for our industry.
Kaili Vernoff [00:55:29] I, I am so I'm so filled up from this conversation. So but before I let you go, I want to ask you our signature question here, which is basically, you know, while we've been talking a lot about collaboration and as we know, we can't we can't achieve any of these things alone. So I would love to give you an opportunity to tell me about a time in your life or in your career when somebody recognized something special in you and gave you an opportunity to shine.
Mary Kenney [00:56:00] I thought about this and now I'm going to completely choke because there's so many people who have really, really lifted me up. So one thing that other women in the industry who point out is that the people and the allies who opened doors for us. So my shout out is going to be to Ryan Kaufman, who was the director of design at Telltale. And he's still in games, but that's how we met. Ryan was the first person I worked with who seemed to take me seriously, right? It wasn't... It wasn't just that I was young or that I hadn't, you know, I hadn't written a game full time yet, but he he took my ideas seriously. He was good at talking through things with me. He's still a great mentor who I reach out to when I have questions or concerns about my future. It's... He has been so great to have both as a friend and a mentor. So him definitely specifically in games. And then in life, I... You know, this might be cliche, but my mom, Laura Jardo, she went back to college when I was in high school. And so having her as a role model like you don't you don't need to, you know, just settle. I guess, you don't need to settle for where you are and what you're doing. You can keep reaching for something bigger and better. Really changed my life, right? It led me from being a journalist to being a game designer. It led me to keep pushing in the projects that I would work on. And my mom was a single mom. So she taught me to kind of stand -- both stand on my own, but know when to ask for help. And I think that's really changed how I approach everything. So so those are my two.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:09] First of all, that is not cliche and really beautiful. It's really beautiful. And I actually don't hear it that often. So that's really beautiful. And go ahead.
Mary Kenney [00:58:18] Working on Miles. You know, Miles has a single mom at this point, Rio, and that getting to write about a badass single mom when I have a badass single mom was pretty special. I was pretty excited about it.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:34] Oh, that is so cool.
Mary Kenney [00:58:35] Yeah.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:37] She is going to love this interview.
Mary Kenney [00:58:39] No!
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:39] We have made her proud. Thank you so much for making time for this today.
Mary Kenney [00:58:47] Yeah, thank you for having me. This was so much fun, I'm fired up too, like I'm ready to roll into my afternoon meetings.
Kaili Vernoff [00:58:53] Yes, that's how I feel. I feel absolutely just filled up and inspired, so I cannot thank you enough.
Mary Kenney [00:59:01] Thank you so much. I'm so glad we got to meet in person too! I do feel like yes, friend! It's great!
Kaili Vernoff [00:59:07] We are friends, although we have not met in person. Don't forget this is not in person.
Mary Kenney [00:59:11] Yeah, Socially-distanced, God.
Kaili Vernoff [00:59:11] It's OK. All good. All right, you. Have a great day.
Mary Kenney [00:59:22] Bye.
Kaili Vernoff [00:59:28] She's so awesome, Spider-Man: Miles Morales is out now on PS4 and PS5. Look for Mary's upcoming issue of My Little Pony for IDW Comics later this month. And check out our show notes for Mary's website and social media information so you can keep up with all her work. And for exclusive bonus material with Mary and our other Let's Play guests. Be sure to check out thegamehers.com
Verta Maloney, the*gameHERs [00:59:53] Thanks for listening. Let's Play was brought to you by the*gameHERs, a community that connects all types of women gamers and welcomes every human who supports this. Let's Play was produced by Kaili Vernoff and co-produced by the gameHERs team, Laura Deutsche, Rebecca Dixon, Verta Maloney, Heather Ouida and Alexis Wilcock with sound design done by Frank Verderosa. Please visit thegamehers.com for show notes, to access exclusive bonus material, and to learn more about the gameHERs community. And we so appreciate if you subscribed and gave us a five star review. Thanks again for listening.