Becoming Brave Together

On Season 11, Episode 2 of The LowDOWN: A Down Syndrome Podcast, Jessica Patay gives us the lowdown on becoming brave together.

Transcript

Before we begin today's episode, we want to take a moment to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded in Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada, on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territories of the hən̓ q ̓əmin̓ əm and the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh speaking peoples, including the Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh nations, at the Down Syndrome Resource Foundation. We recognize the work we do to support individuals with down syndrome takes place on land that has been cared for by indigenous peoples for generations. We honor their enduring connection to this land and acknowledge the impacts of colonialism that continue to affect indigenous communities today. As an organization rooted in inclusion and empowerment, we recognize our responsibility to not only acknowledge this history, but to actively learn from it. We are committed to fostering respectful relationships with indigenous peoples and integrating principles of reconciliation, equity, and justice into all aspects of our work. In advocating for the rights and potential of individuals with down syndrome, we strive to build a more inclusive world, one that recognizes and respects all identities, histories, and cultures. Today on The Lowdown A Down Syndrome podcast, Jessica Patay gives us a lowdown on becoming brave together. Over to you, Hina and Marla. Thanks, Danielle. On today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's both deeply personal and powerfully communal parents who become leaders by starting caregiver support groups. And we'll hear stories from a mom who turned their own challenges into connection in building safe, empowering spaces where caregivers can share, listen and grow. And are you excited to get into this one with me? Yeah, I'm really excited. And actually our guest today is also a podcast host, so it's always fun to talk to other podcasters. Yes, but from a parent perspective, we always love parent perspectives. So we're going to be joined by Jessica Patay, who is the founder and executive director of We Are Brave Together, host of the Brave Together Parenting podcast, and the co-author of Becoming Brave Together. She embodies resilience and compassion in her mission to support the mental health of caregiving mothers worldwide. Drawing from her own experiences raising a son with a rare genetic disorder, Jessica launched We're Brave Together in 2017, in order to educate caregiver moms in their diverse and difficult journeys and provide community and connection. Since then, the nonprofit has gracefully provided support groups, workshops, retreats across the country, and an inspirational and resourceful podcast for a growing troupe of almost 3700 caregiving moms that's so impressive across 50 states and 28 countries. Jessica, welcome to the lowdown. Thank you for joining us today. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we're so excited. Um, Jessica, in the grand tradition of the lowdown, we always like to start our podcast off with a fun few secret questions. Um, just so our audience can get to know you a little bit better. Um, so I'll start us off. Um, question number one. If you could invent a holiday, what would you celebrate? Oh. That's good. I would celebrate girlfriends. Oh, that's a good one. That's a really good one. Celebrate your besties. Yeah. Do something fun together. Oh, absolutely. Love that. That's a great idea. Um, okay. Question number two. Um, what was the first album you ever owned. Oh, I love this because I know it. It was Blondie. It was Blondie. Oh. Good one. Very good. Really good. Like the actual album. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Do you still have it? No. And I should say that roads are coming back. Yeah. They are. I know I just told my husband because my kids have turntables in their rooms. I'm like, we need one, we need one, we need one. And then you got to find that Blondie album. Oh my gosh. Sentimentality. I agree. I know. Thankfully, there are record stores still around. They're trying to, you know, keep keep that tradition going. So hopefully you would be able to find something out there. Yeah. Um, last question for you here is when you're writing, so you've written a book and I'm sure there's a lot of writing involved in prepping the podcast. Do you write by hand or are you on a keyboard? I prefer to write by hand first. Get the ideas going? Yes, yes. It's just it just flows better. It just feels better. It's more cathartic and than typing for sure. It feels more like an emotional release, I think, than kind of you're separate from the writing when it's on a keyboard a little bit. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, when I, when I was preparing for this interview, I read that you received a welcome phone call two weeks after your son Ryan was born. And that for you, this was like a pivotal moment, connection to the community. And I was curious if you could talk about what community has meant to you as you've raised your family. I mean, it's really meant everything. I mean, when you get a rare diagnosis, probably any diagnosis, but when you know, everyone around you says, oh, I've never heard of that. Oh, I've never heard of that. Um, and you're told people haven't heard of this when you're in the hospital and you're testing and nurses and doctors are saying, I think there was a page, you know, somewhere in the textbook about this, you feel very alone and just just, you know, having a diagnosis delivered to your family. How is how I put it? Um, your world shifts on its axis and you feel suddenly so alone because your family life, your parenthood, your motherhood is going to be in stark contrast to your friends. If none of them have any children with medical or genetic diagnoses. And so when we got that phone call, I call it the Lisa phone call, and she called to say, hi, I'm going to be your mentor, mom. And she was about 4 or 5 years ahead of me in the journey. Amazing. With a son with Prader-Willi syndrome. She said, you can ask me anything. You can reach out to me anytime. And she really, really meant it. And I found out she was about 20 minutes away from me. So she was in the South Bay and there happened to be a support group in the South Bay, accessible close by. They had childcare. My husband and I, we jumped in right away and we met friends that we still spend time with today. I'm on a text thread with 6 or 7 other moms who's now adults. We're all we all have adults now with Prader-Willi syndrome and they they have been my lifeline. But that cemented early on in my journey how important community is. We have to know that we are not alone. Whatever it is that we're going through in life, whatever it is. And I'm so grateful that that that my husband and I weren't afraid to jump in, that we weren't scared of becoming sad by being around other people who are sharing their stories. Frankly, we were so surprised. Everyone was so smiley and like just saying there's still joy to be found. Yes, this is hard. And yes, this will be different and challenging, but there's still joy to be had here, and that was really powerful for us to hear early on. How I'm curious, how did she find you? How did she know that you were there to be called? It's magic. I mean, it's like a beautiful sort of connection to build, but it must have had some background work going on there for her to know that you were there. Well, I think as soon as we got the diagnosis, Chris reached out to the Prater Willy's Syndrome Association, based in Florida. And then we also had the California Foundation. I don't I can't recall if he reached out to them as well. But of course everyone's connected. So they notified poop. And poop had mentors as well as the national organization. And so they had this all set up ahead of time. And as soon as he reached out, they they have system in place where they get in touch with new parents right away and assign a mentor right away. Fantastic. Did you go on to be a mentor as well? Um, for the next the next mom, you know. Yes, for sure I did. Mhm. Oh, it really builds community that way. Oh it's wonderful. Um can you. So you've gone on to participate in that but also build a separate thing. So let's talk a little bit about it. Um, I would love to hear a bit about the sort of growth and purpose of these. We are Brave Together events. Um, because I don't think that everyone up here in Canada has heard of them. So I would love for you to outline that for us. Thank you. So I knew for years that I wanted to do something for caregiving moms, and I just didn't know what it was. And, uh, and then it all came together beautifully, because I'd been putting on girlfriends retreats with one of my best friends in different parts of the country, and we'd hire a speaker, and it would just be a great girls weekend. Also with some inspiration. And so we turn to each other. When we were doing a retreat in Nashville in 2016 and we said, well, this is all well and good, but who really needs a weekend up? We weren't doing it to make money. We probably lost money. You know, we weren't it wasn't a business. It was just like, let's get, you know, great people together and hire a speaker and have a weekend off and have fun together. We were so about the friendship of women and the community of women. And anyway, the idea came and we said, right, who needs a weekend off? But caretaking moms? So the idea was birthed, and then the next year I launched it with the intent to put on support groups and low cost retreats so that we could give moms the opportunity to get away, to have fun, to be in community with other people who get it. To hear from a great speaker and to be resourced, you know, to go back into their crazy, crazy beautiful life. And so we did. We launched. That's how we began in Southern California. And then it just grew and grew and grew. Um, we started in 2020 right before the shutdown. Um, to add chapters or satellite support groups. We call them connection circles now. And, uh, now we have them all over the country. They are virtual or in person, sometimes a combination of both. And we can set up a connection circle in any city, in any country. And we've we've been abroad. We were in New Zealand and Australia for a couple of years as well. So that has expanded beautifully because those leaders are all caregiving moms. They're boots on the ground serving and supporting their fellow moms in their area. Some of our connection circles are topical, so we have a virtual one for moms who have kids with behavioral struggles. We have one that's for moms who have adults age 22 and plus. And we chose that because you age out of the school district at 21 or 22. It's a very different season of life. Um, we have a topical one, um, that's also virtual moms of teens. So because that's its own, its own, its own animal. We all shake our heads like teens. Teens hashtag teens help. Um, so, uh, but most, most of them are by geography. So, you know, Glendale, San Diego, Atlanta, Durango, Colorado Springs, you know, all over the place. New York, we launched we're launching Boston and soon. So and I think we should be clear, these are not just for moms whose kids have Prader-Willi. Right. These are for all kinds of caregiving moms. The diagnosis maybe isn't as important as the fact that you're a caregiving mom in this role. Without a break. Exactly, exactly. So we say any diagnosis under the sun, and even if your child is undiagnosed but clearly has medical, behavioral, genetic, Psychological struggles. We include mental health as well. Though most people don't consider, you know, depression, anxiety as a disability, but it is disabling and it is its own journey as a parent. And certainly for that child, teen or adult struggling with, you know, OCD, depression, anxiety, bipolar, extra layers for a parent, for sure. It's all extra. So we we have a we're very all inclusive community of moms. And honestly, wherever you are on the caretaking spectrum from, you know, we say from like light to super heavy or intense, you all matter. Your kid matters. The diagnosis matters. You qualify. You are welcome. You belong. Oh, that's a that's a really powerful message. What happens in a group? What do you guys do? Yeah. Chat about it. I was just going to say before you answer that. Also, could you also just if a family is listening and they're like, you know what, I want to start a connection circle in Vancouver. If you could kind of talk, walk us through kind of what that how that starts and then kind of going into what Marla had asked, like, what does it look like? Sure. So there is an application and interview process. So when you'd send an inquiry to hello at We Are Brave Together and say I'm in Vancouver or wherever in the world, I would like to start a connection circle. Can you tell me about that? And so then we send an info sheet, an application, an agreement for review and set up a a chat with me and interview with me. And then we review everything, we review the commitment and we also assess if that person has the right, you know, sort of mindset. Um, and if they're already engaging in true self-care practices, if, if I ask, you know, and we ask on the application, what are you doing on a weekly basis, on a regular basis to take care of your own mental health? And they say, I don't have time to many appointments, then we in good conscience cannot say, great, we're going to give you one more thing to do and to serve and to give of yourself while you're not taking care of yourself. So. And if also we kind of detect in somebody like, oh well, their kid only has ADHD and my kid has a rare genetic disorder. No no no no no. Let us share and not compare like every diagnosis matters. And so you have to have that mindset going into this. Um, you're there to facilitate a safe, sacred space to share. The groups are, if they're virtual, usually about an hour or an hour and a half online, um, in person, two to 2.5 hours in a home because it's private, cozy, warm, inviting. Um, that is the preferred setting. But some people will meet at a park, some will meet at a community center or a library, um, community center. And that's fine too. It's just not that same sort of warm and cozy feel of a house. Um, and then at the group, you know, different leaders might open in different ways. They might open with a breathing exercise, they might open with a reading, they might, you know, open with, um, something inspirational. They might just open by sharing their story because they have a whole new group of people. And, and, and we always encourage our leaders to lay the foundation of not just, of course, like confidentiality, but this is a place to share. We're not here to pounce on each other with problem solving and fixing. You should do this. And have you tried that? And oh my gosh, this has worked for me. Now all of that is well and good and all of that will come out naturally. You know, before, after a group. And certainly somebody can come to a group and say, I have a question and I really, really welcome your feedback. So that means that person is giving permission for feedback, right? But otherwise it's really a place to share, to be seen, heard and understood, to be validated and just to let it out. Because we go on autopilot and we work so hard and we advocate so hard, and we do all the caretaking tasks, a thousand of them per day, and we often stuff our emotions, we often push it to the side, stick it in a box on the shelf for someday. And then you get to a group where you're around other people who get it, who understand who you don't have to apologize for your tears or your cussing or whatever, you know. You know, stage of grief you're in. Um, and if you let down because it feels like a safe place, I'm around people who really understand they're not going to be, like, pitying me, you know? Right. Yeah. That's not what you need at at that time. Um, this is really quite fabulous. I want to draw a little parallel here because some people might say, oh, these parents, they need individual therapy, they need a counselor, they need this. And one thing that we hear a lot here as different kinds of therapists, um, is that when a parent seeks out individual counseling, the counselor doesn't get it. The counselor can't offer that same shared experience. They don't have insight into those challenges. So this sounds in some ways even more powerful than individual therapy. I don't know if you've come across that at all in the groups that you've run. Oh, for sure, I would say that. I mean, you know, people say it's it's a lifeline because you're just in an environment people understand. All of our leaders are caregiving moms. So they it's it's not somebody outside the community who who has, you know, mentoring experience that would be great. They would make us a great facilitator. But it's comforting to the attendees to know you're one of us. And it's the same with all of our retreat speakers. All of them are caregiving moms. Yeah. One of the I think tropes of motherhood is exhaustion, which you touched on a little bit, and I think it's even more so the case when there's a parent who has a child with extra needs, whatever those might be. Um, and at the same time, parents are told that they should prioritize themselves and take care of themselves, which can feel very impossible. And I would love to know how you rectify these two ideas and how this balance really contributes to we are Better together. We are brave together. Um, so I love this question. And it's a hard one, right? Because, you know, when you talk about true self-care, everyone's going to roll their eyes. Don't roll your eyes. Just hear me out. Um, I think it goes deeper. So what I always say is, the first step to engaging in true self-care practices is that you have to believe that you are worthy of investing in your own mental health, because if you don't value that, you're not going to work on the obstacles that are there that get in the way. Your schedule, your exhaustion, asking for help, scheduling a caregiver, whatever it is to make the time to go for that walk, to meet with a life giving friend. To go to yoga, to, I don't know, just do some journaling at a cute cafe by yourself, right? All of that counts as as true self-care. I don't want to give people another list of to dos. You don't need another list of to dos. You just need to find something that lights you up, something that you feel grounded afterwards, something that gives you peace or gives you access to joy. You know, some sort of play. Like if coloring or painting or dancing in the kitchen, you know, it can be really simple. And we do have something that we include in our brave bags at all of our retreats. Um, and it's also on, on our website under our resources. But it's just bite size self-care suggestions. You can spend five minutes a day taking deep breaths and closing your eyes. Just breathing. That will definitely soothe your nervous system. And we're always sharing podcast episodes to listen to this book, that book, you know, lots of resources for your mental health. So it's possible we we just have to get over like the martyr motherhood philosophy that we've been indoctrinated, that if we step away from our children to do something for ourselves, that it's selfish. Well, no, because if you're the primary caregiver, you have to invest in yourself or you're going to go down and somebody else will take over. Somebody will have to take over. And and we don't want that. We don't want to hit burnout. And if anyone's listening, they have hit burnout. It's not too late. You can still stop and do something to take care of yourself. You deserve it. Yeah. It's that, you know, age old term. Like you can't pour from an empty cup or, you know, you have to put the mask on yourself first. And I think at a certain point, a lot of those are heard and said to parents so many times that I think even to families or parents and moms especially, it becomes meaningless. They're like, yeah, I know I can't pour from an empty cup, But, you know, and I love the idea that you're talking about bite sized pieces of self-care, right? Like the smallest amount that you can commit to that is a great place to start. Like, nobody's asking you to, you know, take an hour out of your day. Like, let's build up. And I think sometimes in in our in our sessions too, like, although, you know, our primary job is to work with our students, we oftentimes do find our ourselves as kind of in a, in a supportive role for the families and for for the parents. And we're also saying like, you know what? Here are a few ideas. What do you think would be the easiest for you to try? Sometimes just generating ideas of what you can do can be itself a task. So it's like, okay, let's like sit down together and think like these are a few things. Which of these would do you feel like, you know, you could start with. And it kind of just helps get the process going. Um, yeah. Um, so, Jessica, you recently compiled and published a book, um, focused on caregivers and caregiver stories. Can you talk a little bit about the impetus for kind of creating this book, and what are some of the common themes that have emerged from your conversations with families and mothers especially? So the the catalyst for this was to really shout the worth of caregiving and caregivers and to raise awareness about extraordinary and extreme caregiving. Um, caregivers feel marginalized. We are siloed off. They are hidden, especially if your kid has invisible. Invisible, especially if your kid has invisible disabilities where you might, you know, see them walking down the street and you don't see anything. But there's a lot going on with those things. Yeah, there's things going on. Yeah. Moms are stuck at home, you know, like when when the shutdown happened in 2020 and everyone was isolated and stuck at home. Many of us caregiving moms are like, yeah, we've been doing this right. Especially if your kid is medically fragile, psychologically or behaviorally fragile, and it's hard for you to go out in public. You are stuck at home. So we feel hidden. We feel isolated and lonely. And this was a way to just really raise awareness. And I also, you know, so many people said, why didn't you write your own book? And yes, I will I will do that someday. But I really am about, you know, lifting and supporting. My fellow mom and I have a platform to share my voice. I've done a lot of writing and speaking. You know, we have our podcast. I do get to share my, you know, thoughts, feelings, my heart. Um, my journey. I wanted that for other moms. I wanted to give them an opportunity to share their story, use their voice, find their voice. And and this was a book that, you know, our writers gave to family and friends and, and, you know, even I, like one of my sisters is my best, best, best, best friend. She called me up after reading and she said, okay, you have shared everything with me along this journey, but I feel like I get it now after reading 22 stories. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh my eyes, my heart, my soul is open in a new way after reading all these stories. And, um, I think this is my theory. I'm such a psychology nerd. My theory is that if you have one friend who has a child with a disability, it's really easy to minimize how intense their lives are and what they need. Because all of us, most of us rise up, we're strong or we become strong and we become resilient, and we just do what we have to do. We didn't have a choice, right? But we rise up because we love our children, and we're going to do the best that we can for them. But when you read a book of 22 stories, oh oh, I did not get it at all. I didn't realize. Right. Those are some of the responses that we've received from family and friends, professionals, because you're reading all those stories. Not at once. It's, you know, I would I would say, read a chapter and put it down a few weeks later, read a chapter, put it down. It doesn't have to be something that's read in one sitting because it is heavy, too. You know, there's a balance of the hope and the heart in the book. But, um, you know, it's something you can pick up and, and set down. But it's very enlightening to those who are outside the disability community. And we wanted that. Um, I think there's something powerful about the collection of voices. Right? You can really see the through lines. Everyone has their own struggles and own moments of joy, but you can see these similarities across many stories, which you don't get in a single memoir, I don't think. Um, and also, I think, you know, the other reason too, for this book is to validate every caregiver, you know, mom or dad. You know, we are mom centric and we are brave together. But this will validate any parent, caregiver or really, you know, caregivers who are taking care of their parents. Like the themes are the same, right? Yeah. The advocating, the intensity, the what is required. Um, that community is the only way through that, you know, engaging in true self-care and gratitude is going to save you and engaging in self-compassion. Um, uh, trying to think of some of the other themes. Um. I'm completely spacing, but I think it also touches on the importance of kindness. Right. And that how meaningful it is when somebody reaches out to really help you and, you know, sees you, sees that you need that and is able to step in and be helpful. I think that's really powerful. It's really, really important. We we need people that will say, can I just do your laundry for a couple days? Can I bring you a dinner? Can I bring your favorite coffee and just sit with you? Because I know you're stuck at home right now. It's winter. There's germs out there. You're kind of stuck at home. Can I keep you company? Just offering tangible help instead of saying, what can I do? Let me know if I can do anything. No, we're too tired. I don't want to organize a meal train. I'm too tired to think of what you can do. Just offer something tangible. That's something that I've been saying a lot since the book came out. Offer tangible help to friends and family in crisis or whatever. Yeah, I think even even asking like, what can I do for you is a demand for some families that are kind of in survival mode. And they're like, I can't even think of what I need right now. So a lot of it is like, okay, I'm just I'm just going to be here. Yeah, I've had I've had families that have told me in their times of stress, their friends or family or friends that have come over. We're like, I'm just going to do your dishes for you and I'll leave, right? Or I'm just going to come in and look after the kids for a bit. Um, and I think a lot of that comes from knowing the person that you're supporting, because if you don't know the family that's struggling and how to support them, then then you're kind of like, I don't know what to do, but, um, but I think you're absolutely right. I think the tangible day to day things that just help your day go to the next thing and check one more thing off your list is oftentimes, you know, the most helpful. Um, yeah. Um, you know, one of the topics that comes up often in families that we support here, especially is the recurrent grief. Um, as a child, you know, or a loved one grows up, um, and reconciling what your idea was of what that child's life was going to be versus, you know, what reality has kind of deemed it to be and how those things change. Do you find that this grief pushes people to seek out community members who understand the experience, like, what are your thoughts on that grief component of having a child with a disability? I love that you asked this and that was definitely a theme in the book as well. Um, for me personally, I'll tell you a personal story. I think Ryan was probably probably see probably by 7 or 8 somewhere in there. And I was sharing with a friend who was not a caregiving mom, and I teared up just about motherhood in general, you know, and and her response was very judgmental and sort of pitying. And I thought she just she doesn't understand. And she made me feel or it made me feel her statements, her questions that somehow grieving, you know, 7 or 8 years after the diagnosis was wrong. Like there was something wrong with me that I would tear up about my motherhood experience. This was before I started we are brave. It was, you know, Before, um, I really, really, really understood how grief was cyclical. And so that is definitely my message. The grief in this journey is cyclical and it's okay. It is okay to grieve. We think that it's weird or we're not allowed to grieve the child in front of us because they didn't pass away, that somehow only grief is reserved for that. And it is sort of like a disenfranchised grief. It's a grief that doesn't sort of fit in any box. Yeah, but it there is a loss of what you thought your life was going to look like, what your child's life was going to look like, because maybe your child, with their diagnosis, they're not going to drive or they're not going to go to college or go away, they're not going to be independent or what have you, whatever they're maybe not going to do or you know, that they aren't doing. Ryan's almost 22. He didn't go to college. He's not driving. He will never drive. He's not going to get married. He will never be independent from us unless we place them, you know, with 24 over seven staff and either a group home or some sort of independent living situation. And independent, I mean, separate from us. Separate living. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's grief and all of that, and it's okay. It's okay to have the grief buttons pushed. It's so, so normal. Yeah. And I think it's oftentimes grief is equated to like, oh, you're not being grateful for the child that you have. Or it could have been a lot worse. Like all those really just like cringeworthy comments. And it's not that I think it's just understanding the concept of grief. It's very important. I'm glad that you touched on that too, that it is just adjusting your expectations and just kind of, you know, realigning your thoughts and just moving forward. Right? Right, right. Yeah. It's so okay. It's so yeah. Yeah. Um, and, you know, and many parents feel that, you know, their kids are the profound teachers in their lives. Um, can you talk about how this idea kind of shows up in your recent book? Yes. Um, I think there were a few of the writers that talked about how their child or their greatest teacher, and I love that. I think we go into this journey really kind of in fix it mode, you know, which, um, you know, it's a, it's a long the path that you just kind of accept. Oh, no, I'm actually not here to fix my child or normalize or get them as close to their neurotypical peer as possible. I am here to love. I'm here to support. Yes, of course you want to support growth and progress and milestones or what have you. But really, our child is whole and perfect and beautiful and they teach us more than we teach them. And I'm so grateful that somebody turned me on to that. Like I had a friend who said that to me, probably, I don't know, Now. It was probably before Ryan was ten. I don't know if it was like in the very, very beginning. Maybe he was 5 or 6 and it just struck me our she said, our children teach us far more than we teach them. If we are open, if we're ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So true. Yeah. And I just think that is such a beautiful way to look at it instead of like, I have to do all these things for my child. I have to, you know, fix, heal, normalize, change, change, change. Um, I remember somebody saying something about their child living their life. Living who they are living. I forgot how she said it. It was just so profound and so beautiful and so like, so much radical compassion and acceptance, like, let's let our children be who they are instead of trying to change things. And again, I don't mean you like throw out the card and you don't do opt in speech or behavior or whatever, right? I'm not saying that, but let's have a more expansive view of our child and this journey. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to honor that person the way they are instead of, you know, like you said, instead of changing the way that they are. Yeah. I think it involves asking yourself a really difficult question when you want something different than what your child is doing. Is that for your child or is it for you? Um, and that's a really it's a tough one. Um, to acknowledge that maybe you want things to be different for your own self, and that's also okay. But to be able to acknowledge that to yourself and say, you know what? My person is fine doing whatever they're doing in this moment, and it's me who has the problem with what they're doing, but they're safe. They're, you know, not hurting themselves or anyone else, etc.. And so maybe it's okay. It's okay that they're not doing what we would expect in this moment. Yeah, yeah. Because our worth is not tied to how well our child is doing despite their diagnosis. Their worth is not tied to how well they're doing, despite the diagnosis or prognosis. I'm so happy that you said that. I'm so happy that you made that connection for our families out there, that your worth is not tied to how and what and where. You know your child does what they do. Um, there are two separate. Yeah, that's really great. Um, Jessica. So for families that are listening, um, and might be a bit hesitant, you know, they may have preconceived notions about what a support group is or may have had, you know, maybe not the best experience in support groups before or don't understand what the purpose is. What is your advice for them? I want to say, yes, I see you and I know that it feels scary, especially if you've been to a non-supportive support group. And and it is a place where you will be energized by witnessing the strength, compassion and love and resilience and others. And yes, you might let down your emotions, and we're all afraid of that. And it's part of the healing process. And if we stuff, stuff, stuff everything down, it really gets in the way of our ability to access play and joy. And so it really, really is truly beneficial to you. And you're going to walk in and have this immediate bond with other women who get it. It's like, ah, I'm surrounded by people who really know what this is all about. Yeah. What do you what would you say when we hear this? Sometimes that people, they just can't take on any more sadness. They just can't. They don't have any space left to witness anybody else's struggles. Well, I can say you don't have to. You don't have to take on Anybody else's paint. There are practices, you know, to create boundaries emotionally, energetically before you walk into a support group, a connection circle, so that you're not taking on everyone's pain, you can simply say, this is a really easy one. I have a beautiful heart and I don't have to take on anyone's pain. I can just be present and be supportive. Mhm. Yeah. And I think a sign of a good support group is similar to connection circles, is that there is space for you to just listen. You are not expected to share. If you're not ready to share you can just be a part of the community. So I think that's a really important component, because there are people out there that are maybe not ready to share their journey, but are need some support in kind of working step by step toward sharing their experiences. So I think that's a really important kind of component as well if you're looking for a good support group. So I'm so happy that, um, we are Brave together kind of offers that support as well. Um, great. Yeah. I mean, it just it just takes somebody who has the bandwidth and the time to, to lead and to also, you know, promote and advertise their group and put flyers here and there and tell, you know, tell everyone that, you know, your child touches. Tell the school team, tell the medical team tell you know, the pediatrician or whatever. Spread the word. We'll do our part as well. Um, and we definitely have people from Vancouver. Part of we are brave. So, um, it would be easy. It would be easy to start. You just need a location that feels like a comfortable location monthly or every other month to to do that. And the commitment is a volunteer commitment for a year. Most people stay on beyond that unless life gets in the way. Um, that's understandable. And then just does your organization help with, like, let's say, creating flyers? Like, what are some of the the supports that they can get from you guys directly with respect to the logistics of everything? Yeah. So we, um, we give you a social media image. We hope that you're active on social media because it very much helps. Yeah, you don't have to be, but it really does help a lot. Um, some people will start Facebook groups, um, as well. We give you our general flyer, we give you our podcast flyer, and we give you a flyer for your specific group. We don't create flyers for every meeting. That's up to you. We'll give a general flyer template. Yeah. And then we'll promote on social media about that group. We'll promote in the newsletters everything. There's clickable links um, always. And there's links in Instagram tree to get you to where the support groups are as well. Um, we have all everything, you know, behind the scenes to, to, um, support you. We also give every leader a mentor. Yeah. So they have somebody that they're supposed to meet with. Either they meet with a cohort of connection circle leaders and the mentor, or individually with the mentor once a month to provide ongoing training and support. And how's it going? We're not really like, get your numbers up. That's not our heart. Um, but if you know, if you're struggling to get your group off the ground or struggling to get attendance, well, let's talk about that. You know, how can we help? How can we brainstorm around that? Um, and then we do offer a leaders retreat. You just have to get there. We cover the cost of everything. You just have to get there. And again, it's to provide training and support. And we'll do some great feedback sessions with all the leaders. It's great to meet other leaders in person. Um, and it's also a really fun time together. Yeah. Amazing. Um, well, Jessica, thank you so much for for taking the time to speak with us today. I think this is such. I'm so happy that we got a chance to connect with you. I'm so happy that we were able to share, um, you know, this really wonderful organization that we are brief together with our families. I'm really hoping for those that are listening that an idea sparks and you connect and create those connections circles. Because I think in, you know, in our jobs, Marla and I have so many families from so many different backgrounds that are always like looking for connections with other families. So it's so great that you have a worked out, beautiful system and that it can it can be really helpful. So thank you so much for coming and sharing with us today. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. This was a really, really great conversation and if anyone's listening, they want to join. We are brave together. You can go to the website we are Brave together.org membership is free. We have the connection circles online, in person retreats across the country, and we have our podcast. And then we're actually working on book number two. Fabulous. I'm so excited to hear that. Yeah. So and yeah, and we'll put all that information in our episode page so people can find it much easily. Um, but yeah, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Thank you.