Picture This: Promoting Down Syndrome Visibility

On Season 11, Episode 7 of The LowDOWN: A Down Syndrome Podcast, Hilary Gauld gives us the lowdown on promoting Down syndrome visibility through photography.

Transcript

Before we begin today's episode, we want to take a moment to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded in Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada, on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territories of the hən̓ q ̓əmin̓ əm and Squamish speaking peoples, including the Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh nations. At the Down Syndrome Resource Foundation, we recognize the work we do to support individuals with down syndrome takes place on land that has been cared for by indigenous peoples for generations. We honor their enduring connection to this land and acknowledge the impacts of colonialism that continue to affect indigenous communities today. As an organization rooted in inclusion and empowerment, we recognize our responsibility to not only acknowledge this history, but to actively learn from it. We are committed to fostering respectful relationships with indigenous peoples and integrating principles of reconciliation, equity, and justice into all aspects of our work. In advocating for the rights and potential of individuals with down syndrome, we strive to build a more inclusive world, one that recognizes and respects all identities, histories, and cultures. Today on The Lowdown A Down Syndrome podcast, Hilary Gauld gives us a lowdown on promoting down syndrome visibility through photography. Over to you, Hina and Marla. Thanks, Danielle. I am very excited about today's episode because we will be talking about a topic that is also a passion of mine, apart from being an occupational therapist and that is photography. Um, we will be talking with a wonderful photographer about the inspiration behind her most recent project for the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. The connections she's formed along the way, and why visibility and dignity in representation matter more than ever. Hillary Gauld is a portrait photographer from Waterloo, Ontario. For the past 11 years, she has created hundreds of images to close the gap in authentic representation of those with down syndrome in mainstream media. A decade ago, very little imagery existed in this space. Together with the Waterloo Wellington Down Syndrome Society and the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. She also co-created 14 national campaigns that have been featured by local, national and international media, including people Magazine and Breakfast Television. Spotlighting this vibrant community and their families and their beautiful and unique perspectives on the world. Welcome to the lowdown, Hillary. I'm so excited to have you today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Um, okay. So in the grand tradition of the lowdown. Um, I'm going to ask you a few secret questions just so our audience can get to know you a little bit better. Um, so question number one, how do you like to celebrate your birthday? Um. My birthday. I like to keep things simple on the, um, birthdays that kind of like the one, two, three, four. But when we get to the zeros and the fives. Okay? I like the big parties, so. Got lots of family over the top things. So, yeah, I just like subtle little celebrations on the, um, that like I said, those some in-between years. And then when I get to those big numbers. Yeah, milestone birthdays have to have a milestone birthday worthy celebration for sure. That's right. They're worth a little extra celebration. Yes, exactly. Um, okay. Question number two. What's your favorite? Maybe under the radar photography hack. Like, what are something that maybe other people may not know in terms of photo hack. Um, it's interesting because when I, um, talk to people, other photographers, other creatives and questions come up in terms of, you know, process, like your process and all of these kind of things and things like, what's your photography hack? Um, it never has anything to do with equipment or lighting or anything to do with that. It always has to do about your connection with people. So whenever I'm talking to new photographers, established photographers, um, it's it's all about the way you connect with people that will directly impact the result of your image. So probably my biggest hack is just, uh, listen, listen to your, um, participants and your clients and just observe, observe, observe. Absolutely. Again, getting to know your clients, too, because I know when I take photos, and I. And I love taking photos of our students at the Dzf as well, probably one of my favorite group to take photos of, but it is a lot of getting to know them, building that trust with them, and then you really get to see their true selves kind of, you know, come in front of your camera. Awesome. Okay. And the last question, it's a it's a light topic, but what advice would you give to your younger self. Oh my goodness. I like how that's how I ended it. The list would be long. I think, um, you know what? I think the one thing, uh, especially since I'm over 50 now, that I would probably tell my younger self, is that to have more faith in where life takes you. So I think that, um, you know, I've often and like many people, like to control the wheel of your life and think that you have a lot of control over things. But I think if I could tell my younger self to just have a little bit more faith in the bigger picture of life, that some of those smaller, um, movements through life wouldn't have felt maybe as bad as bad. Wonderful. That's such great advice. Um, okay, so let's dig into our topic. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start the here I am project and photographing individuals with down syndrome? Do you have a personal connection to down syndrome? So, uh, 11 years ago, my friend Kate had a son born with down syndrome. His name is Caleb. And, uh, I would say up until that, up until that point in my life, I hadn't had a lot of experience or connection to people with down syndrome or the down syndrome community itself. And so when she had Caleb, um, it was a it was a tough time for her. Caleb was not well when he was born. He was, um, in ICU for quite a long time. And, uh, the way that our community rallied around Kate and her family and Caleb and just cheering him on to, um, to thrive. And, um, it really resonated with me and hit me watching Kate and her journey. Caleb was, um, born many years after her first two children. So he was very much a surprise. And, uh, and him having down syndrome was not something they knew about beforehand. So watching Kate navigate that journey, just in terms of the beginning of the journey being so difficult and, you know, just praying that he survived those first few weeks and then, um, watching her grow into, um, motherhood in a way that she hadn't known prior to Caleb. So, um, that's kind of my first, I guess, real touch point, um, with someone close to me that had a child with down syndrome. And from there she came to me, um, after she had joined the local Waterloo Wellington Down Syndrome Society. That obviously offers support and resources to families who have children with down syndrome. And she just happened to be my studio one day and said, would you be interested in taking photos of our yearly calendar because we are looking for a photographer. So I was far way earlier in my career. And of course I thought, yeah, what a great opportunity. Not understanding anything about what I was about to step into, how it would impact me personally, professionally and ultimately the impact it would have on, you know, a more global scale. Yeah. Well, what a that's such a wonderful inspiration when you have, um, not only like, I'm sure knowing her and Caleb kind of inspires you in life, but also inspires you professionally and kind of inspires you creatively. It's such a it's such a great source, um, to have to be able to kind of, you know, and it's kind of changed the trajectory in a way to kind of where your professional career has taken you. So, um, we often, you know, talk about a lack of disability representation in the media. And we've had a few guests on our podcast talking about that and how they're working to change it. Um, and especially a lack of down syndrome representation. And the imagery that is often out there isn't representative. Um, many times we've talked to families where they've gotten a diagnosis of down syndrome, and they Google down syndrome. And the first thing a Google images comes very archaic, old fashioned photos and cartoon images. Um, why do you think that? Why do you think that is? This lack of representation? And how did this impact your desire to to kind of start your project? Um, I guess, you know, in terms of why that is, you know, obviously there could be lots of opinions on why that is. Um, I think that it really speaks to the core of our culture and what we value. And I think there's a lot of, um, you know, just very sad and dangerous, um, misconceptions and long, uh, a long history of seeing Down's syndrome as something negative, something to be hidden, something shameful. Because as we know, the history, um, is, uh, it's long and it's it's tragic along the way in terms of how, um, you know, just in terms of someone having someone a baby with Down's syndrome and how that's received by the medical community and communities at large. And so I think that when when there is that perception around a condition that it does directly, um, there's a reflection as to how that then is perceived in the bigger community. So I think that would probably be my opinion and that it's just there was no value there in in the past in history. Thankfully, it's not that like that today, but I'd say there's a long history of that, you know, hiding, putting people with Down's syndrome away from society, not integrating into community. And so there was shame, misinformation, misunderstanding around the community. So I think that was reflected in the imagery. And so when I first the very first series I did with them the calendar, I think the thing that was so distinct for me was the disconnect between when I did Google, because I remember actually googling this 11 years ago and thinking to myself, there is a huge disconnect with what I am seeing online and who I just met and worked with in terms of the families, in terms of, uh, the children, their abilities, interests, all of those kind of things. And the imagery I did see was poor quality. Um, I think it really fed a lot of the stereotypes. And in fairness to the photographers and to people who had done imagery previous, I think that, you know, a lot of organizations wouldn't necessarily have had the funds to, um, secure higher level photographers. And so in terms or maybe the intent or the thought wasn't behind whoever was doing the photo. And so to me, it actually did a disservice to the community, a that there was not very much there, but B what was there? Again, you know, just the quality of the imagery. I found not as strong as what you would see of a neurotypical child in the same situations. And the attention to that and some of the I think the misconceptions around were really, really fed into in terms of posing in terms of faces, um, where you place people in the frame and those kind of things. So I did see the gap. It was a very conscious decision between Kate and I after that first calendar, that our mission and our goal with this calendar that had, you know, previously been for fundraising purposes was let's make this a vehicle for advocacy. Let's take these photos and let's try to change the stories and fill the gap because I am a strong believer, um, that, you know, there is huge power in a photograph. I still believe that to this day. Some people think, oh, there's so many, you know, photographers and photos around and it devalues their there's so many of them. It doesn't hold the power, but it sure holds power. And I believe the portrait is an invitation to the conversation. And that's exactly what we did with this in the last 11 years, with every photo we took, is we invite people in to the bigger conversation to help educate and, um, push people's perceptions around those with down syndrome. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's I mean, it's really great to see that more people are pushing for representation. And we're seeing a lot of like when the down syndrome Barbie came out or when, you know, we had Madison Tevlin in a movie and we've had actors with down syndrome for a very long time. There's been some, you know, like long standing actors that have been in movies and TV shows, but sometimes it just takes that one incidence where it's like, okay, now it's kind of blown up. Now everybody's like it's opening up everyone's mind about representation across the disability community. And I think it's one of my greatest joys for me when I take photographs of our students is when they get to see themselves represented in images, right when I give them their photos, because I usually will run photography camp or a club at Dsph and I will do their own portraits. I mean, they take their own photos and everything, but I'm like, I'm going to take a portrait of you and I get them, and when I give it to them, the just the I can see the reaction that they have when they see themselves represented in a photograph is quite special too, because I think they feel, you know, like they matter and that their images are captured for them to, um. What have your experiences been in interacting with some of the adults or some of the people with down syndrome that you've photographed? Like, how has that gone? Um, very similar to yours. And I think that's such a good point because we think about the larger community and how they receive it, and what we're doing for people with down syndrome on, you know, representing them on a more global scale. But yes, you're so right about that. It it not only benefits the greater community, but the benefit to the individual themselves. I see the exact same reaction. I think it's, you know, it's like anybody else when they see a great photo of themselves or they, they see themselves represented somewhere, it's the same feelings that we have. And I really notice, um, and I do think there's an element of confidence that comes along with being able to have your photo taken and how to receive that photo. And I just, you know, photographing virtually the same children from in for 11 years. They just wrapped my 11th, um, uh, series with them last night, actually. And, uh, I, you know, I just see the level of confidence walking in and seeing themselves, you know, standing in front of me and showing them who they are and moving as they wish and interacting with me and stuff. And it's just it's fun. I think it's, you know, they look forward to it. Um, and it makes them feel important and good and as should everybody. So yeah, I noticed the same things as you do in terms of the reaction and how important that is. Um, for them, just as it is for everybody else. Yeah. And honestly, I majority of the people that I photographed, they love being in front of the camera. They love it. They I have seen some of my students or students around here show a side that I didn't even know existed as soon as the camera's pointed at them. And it's it's such a fun experience to see them let themselves go and try different things. I very rarely have to pose anybody. They will come in. I almost have to be like, hold on, give me a second to capture it before you change the pose. So it is something that and you know, we know that people with down syndrome are strong visual learners. They really do love the visual component of their environment. And so I think that's kind of part of the process for them too, is that they get to create their own image from what's in their head and, you know. Yeah. Um, what are some of the themes that you kind of have used as inspiration to photograph folks with down syndrome in, like, the past 11, you know, instances of doing this project. So what we do every year is I very much listen to the community and I observe the community through the year. So, uh, we have a committee that works on this calendar every year. And so, uh, you know, we have a meeting and we talk about, you know, what is it that you want to tackle next? You know, you see children day to day. You see their interactions in the community and the world. And what is it that is is still there? What barriers, what lingers, what would you like people to know and and that kind of thing. So that's kind of a big source of how we decide, you know, if that what that theme is going to be that year. Um, also, there's been years where I've just observed things throughout the year or I've during a project, I'll be like, hmm, I'm curious more about this particular thing. Like for instance, um, you know, we have with the calendar, you know, it's a range of ages. So we have babies on up to adults. And so we generally need to choose something that will kind of be able to bridge all of the ages. But often there's, you know, little stories in there that kind of catch my attention. And so some of our older participants, um, you know, they, they start to, you know, get into the workforce or they start to want to somebody romantically. And so some of those things I've, I've taken and then thought, let's explore, you know, love in the, you know, um, the love aspect of, um, down syndrome and like how they are in workplace and the, um, challenges they have finding paid work and stuff. So that's also inspired some other, um, series I've done with the Canadian Down Syndrome Society and things I've done independently. So that's kind of where the source of the I get themes, I guess, but we just take something that comes directly from the community. So whether it be, you know, um, educating people on how to communicate with people with down syndrome to, um, showing the world what, you know, abilities that they have and things that they can do. Um, you know, and just, just very, very simple things like, um, you know, we there's that perception that and I hear it a lot as soon as, you know, people hear, oh, you work with people with down syndrome. Oh, they're always so happy, you know? And it's just like, you know, obviously people really resonate with people who are happy and positive and stuff. But I also know that there are challenges and that there are an array of emotions. And so, you know, one year we, um, we took that on. And my photography reflected that in terms of not having everyone smiling, I was just kind of catching them in different moods and stuff so that we just, you know, kind of can dispel that myth, right? That, um, yeah. I also experienced array of emotions just like everybody else. So, yeah. So just again, listening, observing, um, listening to their community and what, what they'd like to kind of tell the world their own story. Yeah. That's great. I mean, that's the thing you have to kind of follow the lead of those with the lived experience. Right. And that makes it the most valuable work at the end of the day. So, um, have you like what feedback have you gotten from maybe your general, like, photography community? Have other people reached out to you and, you know, have they had anything to say, or have you inspired others to take on projects from other parts of the world? Um, yeah, it's been interesting. I think as the project has grown it and gotten more global attention, I definitely have had numerous people over the years reach out that either wanted to start something in their community. Um, I've done lots of interviews with students who want to write a paper on, you know, things and just understand, like, um, what inspired the project and, and all those kind of things. So, yeah, definitely had a lot of outreach that way. I think, um, I think what's really important to me when I do talk to other creatives is just to have them understand, you know, what? What place are they coming from with this work? So, um, you know, you have to understand, you know, what it is that's motivating you, why you're doing it. It's not just. Oh, yeah, that looks like a great community to photograph. And, you know, let's just go photograph people with disability. Um, you have to really, um, earn trust. You mentioned the word trust. I think that's really important because, you know, we people with cameras and people with microphones and all of this kind of stuff and that have the ability to reach people. Um, there is a lot of I take a lot of, um, it's a lot of responsibility because either can really help a community or you can really hurt a community with the stories you tell. So, um, I really encourage other creatives to be responsible with the power they have with their, their camera. And you can tell a very powerful story, or you can tell a story that's not accurate or helpful to a community. So, um, that's definitely something when I speak to other creatives around the world, um, about it, that's super important to me. But yeah, this obviously, um, yeah, I'm happy that it inspires photographers to not just it's just about working within the community of disability, but look at all the different communities and issues in the world. And, you know, you have. Yeah, the ability to take, um, your art and your craft and, uh, you know, really tell some interesting and good stories with it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a really good point that it is. It's the bigger lesson here is using your art to to bring light to those that you know, are not are not, don't have the opportunity to be seen out in media or, you know, just in general. So it's it's such a powerful way to do it as well. Um, do you have any plans on possibly collaborating photographers who have down syndrome? I'm sure you've had many that have reached out to you being like, hey, I want to take photos, too. Like, um, that's kind of. When I did photo camp here a few years ago, I had a few adults that came up to me. They're like, and I could see the joy and the pure like, you know, and I was like, okay, guys, do you want to start a photo club? And that's kind of how things got started here. But is that something that's on the horizon for you at all in the future? Yeah. It's it. Yeah. Interesting. You bring that up because I, you know, obviously I've worked in this particular capacity where I take photos of people with down syndrome and then we, you know, work in the media space and, and all of those kind of things. But no, it is definitely something that has crossed my mind in terms of actually, um, you know, taking the craft into the community and saying like, you know, do you want to learn this? Do you want to? Because it's just such a it's there. It's I find photography or any sort of art, it's very therapeutic. We know that research totally agree and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, so yeah, it is something that, um, I have approached a local group to see if maybe I can go out and do just a photography class or, you know, just like a club almost. So some discussions around that. Um, yeah. So, yeah, I think that's something absolutely that I could see myself maybe doing at some point. But, um, yeah, I think it's great. I'm glad that you do that because it's, uh. Yeah. Creativity and having, um, another a way to express yourself and just, um. Yeah, put your mind somewhere is such a positive for anybody. I always find that, like, teaching somebody something else just makes me a better person at that. Like. I mean, when I have, you know, ot practicum students coming, it definitely makes me a better clinician. But I also working with our students and helping them learn how to do photography teaches me so much more too. So it's they're giving me back just as much as I am providing them. So it's a really fun experience. Um, and so apart from that, are there any other projects that people should be on the lookout for? Are you doing anything else with CDSs or with anybody else in in the down syndrome community in the next few years or months? Yeah. So we just finished our 11th series. Um, so I photographed, I think we were close to 60 participants this year for series. Um, so that will be released in the fall during Down Syndrome Awareness Month week. Um, and then yeah, the Canadian Down Syndrome Society, um, and I collaborated in earlier this year, um, for their campaign. And so. yeah. So we'll just kind of see what what comes up in transpires and comes my way within that community. That's awesome. Um, yeah. And we'll, we'll link to your website and to a couple of the projects that, um, that you just recently released two CDs on our episode page so people can follow you. Um, Hilary, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I was so excited to talk to you. I just love to talk to other photographers in general, but also people who love to take photos of people with down syndrome because it's it's a joy and it's so, so much fun to do it. So thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us about your passion and your projects. We appreciate it. Well, thanks for having me here today. Thank you. As a second part to our episode, we're joined by our very own Hina Mahmoud, who you might all know as our senior occupational therapist and co-host of the podcast. And in fact, she's also a photographer. Hina is the founder of the Sharp Shooters Photography club, designed specifically for individuals with down syndrome. Through the lens of the camera, this club is helping members to express themselves, build confidence and see the world and themselves in new ways. All right, Hannah, let's get into it here. Yeah, let's talk about it. This is a great project to talk about. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about Sharpshooters Photography Club and what inspired you to start? Yeah. So I have loved to have been taking photos for quite a few years. And I know that one of my favorite people to photograph is our students. Um, with down syndrome of all ages. Um, and a few on a few occasions, I've had some of the students kind of ask about like my camera or wanting to take photos themselves and just kind of be a part of the process. And, uh, and I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. I wonder how many of our students would actually like to participate in a in a program about photography. Um, so a couple of years ago for our summer camp, um, our, um, summer camp coordinator had suggested, hey, do you want to run a photography camp for a week and just kind of see what it's like. Um, I did that. I had some wonderful teenagers and adults that were massive fans of photography. Um, and I had asked them, hey, like, if I start, you know, a monthly or bi weekly meetup for photography, would you be interested? And I had 7 or 8 instantly being like, yes, I want to do it. So I was like, okay, so let's start Sharpshooter's Photography club. Um, and I think just seeing how excited our students were about taking photos, um, it kind of was like, all right, this is an area that I think we could, um, kind of explore and add some more, uh, some more activities for, for individuals with down syndrome. Mhm. And so what does it look like? Like say people show up to the club. The club that's called the club. Um, people show up to sharpshooters and what, what happens when they're there. Yeah. So our so for the summer camp version It's usually every day of the week. We do a different theme. Um, but for the regular yearly meetup, we meet once a month. Uh, and we talk a little bit about photography, some of the rules of photography. And the thing is that I really wanted to build some teaching into the program. I didn't want it to be show up with your camera and let's just take photos I wanted, especially because they seem so interested in really, um, you know, learning about the art of photography and how to improve their skills. So I was like, okay, let's make it like a proper class. But obviously, you know, the goal is to adapt it and meet, meet the needs for, for our students. So we usually would do it every month. They would come in, we would talk a little bit about we reviewed the rules of photography. Every time we talk about things like focus, light, um, we talk about, uh, you know, with respect to kind of all the kind of different themes that you can, uh, use for photography and then generally what we would do is we work towards a project at the end. So last year we worked every month towards a world Down Syndrome Day project. Um, and it kind of allows us to have a focus, but work on our skills as we get to that, that last, um, project. Um, and there's a ton of enthusiasm for photography as you, as you mentioned. Um, what do you think makes this such a powerful tool for self-expression? Um, yeah, I think especially for our students with down syndrome, because they are such visual learners. They see the world in a very visual, um, way. And I that is kind of what I've really found fascinating in doing this program with them is they're everybody has their own very specific, unique way of looking at the same thing. So if we're taking photos of, um, we had a really fun day of photographing staff members dogs, which was very exciting and and chaotic, but super fun. Um, but each and every person that took photos had their own idea of kind of what they wanted their final product to look like, their final image. So I think it allows people with down syndrome, um, to use that really honed visual processing skill and kind of use, um, use their ideas and kind of combine that together to create their final image. Mhm. Um, I can imagine people are listening and they're thinking like, oh, like I feel like my person would be super into this, but we don't have a big nice camera for them to use. Um, and I'm pretty sure it's not the case that everyone has a big, huge camera. So what kind of things are people using for their equipment? Yeah. So the requirement is for students to use whatever device that they will use the most on their own independently. So yeah, in real life. Yeah. So I don't want them to have to go out and buy a big camera if that's not going to be the most useful for them if they're going to use their phone more often in their everyday lives photographing, then we will use their phone, iPad, um, you know, whether it's uh, or if they have their own camera. Um, I have had 1 or 2 students that have had been, uh, really interested. So I've talked to the parents and gave the families some suggestions on, like a proper camera for her to buy. Um, but yeah, whatever is the tool that is going to make the process more enjoyable and for them and allow them to be able to take more photographs more often, is the right device to use? Yeah. So you're really focused on generalizing this interest into not just during club time, but also when they're out and about and finding things that are interesting for them. Um, what kind of themes do you think come up a lot? What are what are people into photographing? Yeah. Um, I two of the, the two most common themes when I it's the first session of sharpshooters, I always make a big brain map of different things that, you know, you can photograph. And then I get the students to, to contribute and I think, uh, portrait photography. So, you know, taking photos of themselves, friends or family is always one of the first ones, and then nature is always a second one. A lot of our students love taking photographs of flowers, leaves. Some of the other ones that we've done, um, more often, um, are, uh, pet photography, which is very popular. Um, and then also a lot of them love, um, action photography. So they love going to like sporting events and practicing their photographs in those kind of venues as well. That's quite a diverse set of things that people like, which I guess reflects the diverse group of people who like taking photos, which is really, really cool. Um, what are your thoughts on how photography can really challenge stereotypes or shift perceptions of people with down syndrome? I think like anything else, you know, we I mean, like as I mentioned earlier, the the art of photography can be used as self-expression for anybody. So I think this is just another outlet, another tool for people with down syndrome to be able to express themselves. Um, especially, you know, you don't have to necessarily have, um, a specific set of speech and language skills to take photos. You don't have to have a specific set of visual processing skills to take, you know, photos. You can it's an art form that is, that allows people of a variety of different skill levels to be able to access it and to enjoy it. Um, so in terms of challenging, um, you know, some of the preconceived notions or shifting to perceptions of people with down syndrome, I think it's just helping people understand that. They also have, um, a particular point of view of how they see the world and that they are like anybody else, just as like those views are just as valid as anybody else's. Um, and I just think it's just interesting to see, um, how they expressed their views and that it is so Individualistic um amongst them. Yeah. Mhm. Um, I've been lucky to come and see some of your photography students work, but let's talk a little bit about that. Have you. What kind of spaces are you able to show people's work in? Are you making these images available to the public in any way? Like what is that looking like? Yeah, that's a great question. So I mean, we are kind of still in like a soft start of the, of the program. Um, but I think our, our really for the summer camp version, we always the last day we always have uh, at least 3 to 4 of their themed photos printed. I like to give everybody a hard printed paper copy, uh, for their portfolio, for them to take home. And honestly, and we have, like a little exhibit at the dzf and families and friends come in and staff come in. And the other thing about that particular thing is that I also like the students to talk about their photography in whatever way that works best for them, whether it's using their devices, using their speech, their Speech there. Language. Um, I like for them to be able to be proud of their work and explain. So anytime people are coming in to observe their work during the summer camps, I always ask, uh, encourage people to ask questions, um, because I want them to be able to, you know, talk about their work and be proud of it. Um, but in terms of the monthly program, we were very fortunate to be able to have our World Down Syndrome Day photos on display at a wonderful local brewery, um, and, uh, called Lupulo Brewing. And they actually for about at least 6 to 7 months, maybe even longer. They had the display of the students work for World Down Syndrome Day, a little write up that they had about what World Down Syndrome Day means to them. And it's just really nice because there are a variety of people that are walking through that space that are learning about down syndrome, that are learning about, you know, challenging those preconceived notions about people with down syndrome and really admiring and the inspiring work that they create. So going forward, my dream is at one point I have submitted a couple of students photos for some competitions recently. Um, but I would love to. My dream is to kind of have a book of some kind so that people can kind of have like a coffee table book of their of their photos. Yeah, that would be so fabulous. And the pride that the photography students show in their images and those exhibitions is just so evident. There's some swagger and some strutting going on, and I am here for it because they they've really worked hard. And their perspective on the themes that are covered in the exhibition is just so fascinating. Um, and yes, maybe it is different than what other people might shoot, and that is fabulous. I love to see those kinds of unique takes on things. Um, so yeah, it's really fun, um, to be able to see people's work that way. Um, I can imagine, too, that there are other people who are creative in some way, um, who are thinking, okay, I don't do photos, I do painting or I do dance and I would love to start a sort of cousin club kind of thing or something similar. And what would be some hot takes for hot tips that you could recommend to people? Um, if they are thinking they might want to do something like that? Yeah, absolutely. I think that I think my OT brain served me really well in, in creating this program because my goal, my goal was to make the content, at least for photography, as accessible, but being able to adapt it on the spot for, you know, a variety of different students. I have students that have vision challenges. I have students that have speech and language differences in my group, and I actually find it really. I actually find it fun to be able to adapt things for them. Again, this is where the OT brain comes in. Um, so I think knowing the group of people that you're going to support understanding, uh, not only necessarily down syndrome, but like the 5 or 6 or however many people you're going to have in your group learning about them a little bit more, understanding kind of what you know, supports that they might need. Because the thing is, if you're going to do a program like this in a more meaningful way, you have to base it on each individual person's needs, and that can be a lot of work. That's why volunteers and all that stuff is really helpful to have. But in order to make it truly meaningful, it can't be a, you know, a very general prescriptive model. Like I like to make it specific to each person. Um, so for some students, you know, we'll have a PowerPoint up that talks about what we're doing. For some people, there's a whiteboard in front of them. So that adaptive accessible piece is really important. And then I think just in terms of the art form of photography or of painting or any kind of art form, just being open to exploring, right? So if they have ideas, they're like, oh, normally we wouldn't take photographs of that or paint that, but let's just try it like I want them to be able to explore, and I want them to be able to feel that, you know, their ideas are. Are valuable. And I don't want to ever shut down anybody's ideas with respect to kind of art form, because it is so subjective. So. So I think those two things would be my biggest hot tips is to really learn about the people that you're creating the program for, and encouraging them and yourself to, to be open to ideas. Mhm. So if I had to distill down what you said, it sounds like, um, meet your people before you make your program so that you're not too set on a certain outcome. Don't try it alone. Have some volunteers there to help you out so you can pivot on the spot a few times if needed. And then process over content, right? So it's all about learning how to do the thing, not what the final outcome might be, or what the theme or topic could be in that moment. How has this changed you as an OT? It's kind of reverse question now. Yeah. No, I I've always been an OT. I've never been a very creative person. Um, I've always, like. I can't think of things off the spot. Marla, you and I like. I've known Marla for a very long time. She's very creative, um, very artistic minded, and I just. My brain doesn't work that way. Um, so that's why it's forcing me to kind of come out of my very, like. Oh, this is how we take a photo of a person this way. Like, I'm also in, in conjunction with my students. I'm also pushing myself to be like, oh, well, like, what if what if we do get on the floor and take a photo, you know, from this position, right. Like, yeah, it's like, why, why shouldn't why shouldn't we do that? So it's actually really made me kind of, um, challenge my own creativity. And I find that it is helping me in my own personal photography business that I'm forcing myself to, to try new things. Um, and so, yeah, so I think that's been really a really great kind of, you know, aside with respect to this program for me specifically, um, and you mentioned the photography like a coffee table book, which would be gorgeous. Interests. Um. And I would love to have it if when it's made. Um, what? What else do you think? What other dreams do you have for photography club going forward? I think I would, I would just like for one of my one of the cool things that happened recently was that one of my students, who's been in the photography club every summer, she registers, uh, for the monthly one. She's always there. She her final project that she wanted to take photos at her brother's wedding. So. So my dream is for students to be so confident and so inspired by taking photos that they want to go out and do it on their own at such a. And it doesn't have to be a big scale like a wedding or an event, but she just the the excitement and the, um, you know, she was just so happy to be able to do it. Um, and we met for a couple of, you know, tutoring sessions just to kind of think about kind of what, wedding photography. And I'm not a wedding photographer by any means, but just helping her understand some of those things. So I think my dream for photography club, apart from a book, Um, and maybe like a really nice formal gallery viewing that is probably on my list, uh, in the near future is just I want my students to be able to be excited about photography. I want them to come and tell me about it. I want them to show me their work and just share it with with the people that they love. I think that at the end of the day is the final goal for sharpshooters. It's just for them to to love the art of photography like I do and that empowerment of like, I love it and I can do it and I can make something that I myself like, which is really the end goal there. Oh, I love that. Well, thanks for giving us this inside. Look into how sharpshooters works here. That's so nice of you. Thank you. Yeah. And then if anyone, uh, at least within the Vancouver, Burnaby, BC area, um, is interested in signing up, you can, uh, you know, keep an eye out on our social media and our website. But if you want to talk about starting your own photography club and kind of how you would go about it, please feel free to reach out. And I'm happy to discuss some ideas. So thank you. Fabulous.