Remote Interpreting: All in this together

Welcome to the final installment of our mini series!

We have the wonderful Caroline McGrotty on to talk about being in all of this together. 

We cannot wait for you to hear it! 

Best, 

Ciara and Romy xxxx

Transcript

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It's Lean, podcast.- Hi, I'm Ciara.- Hello, I'm Romy.- And this is, what could it be?- Take the lean.- It's so different doing this on a remote basis, the world has changed drastically.- It is indeed. It's a different world. It's a different place.- Absolutely.- But we're still here.- We are, indeed. We are indeed. And this episode is focusing on remote interpreting, all in this, this whole COVID scenario, together. Cause it's true. We are all in the same situation, right?- We are, we are all in this together. And today, the two of us will be together, if you like, with our very special guest, who is gonna talk to us, everything to do with working together. Today's very special guest we should introduce is Caroline McCrotty, is going to be joining us. And we're so happy to have her here today and have her on the podcast. We're really, really, really looking forward to chatting with her. She's got an incredible background. She's on the board of the Sign Language Interpreting Service. She herself studied in CDS at the same time as Ciara and I. She works as an OTI translator for the weather and the news. I mean, she's incredibly experienced. Not only that, she works with an organization called Ahead. And, the organization itself work with people with disabilities, disabled people so that they can get jobs themselves. And not only that, Ahead also go to organizations and companies and teach them how they can recruit persons of various disabilities. So, really her background leans very nicely into what we want to discuss here like how we've all adopted considering the changes that are going on. Cause it's, so different now.- So much skills. So much knowledge. Yeah, and actually recently I saw a quote there. I don't know if you know it or not. And I suppose, you know, the old thing, like we're all in the same boat but I actually saw a new take on that, and it was,"we're all in the same storm, but we're in different boats." So, I think that actually really fits in nicely to our topic today, because of course, you know, we're all in the middle of the same pandemic, same COVID-19 pandemic. And you know, the world has completely changed. We've mentioned that so many times before and we have to adapt to doing things in a totally different way, but at the same time we all have our own way of dealing with it, getting through. And then I suppose if you think about an interpreting situation, you know, of course everybody in that situation, is all in it together, but we've all got our own roles, our own responsibilities, if that makes sense. So like the deaf person, hearing person, interpreter, we've all got our own rules, in our own way to manage those whole situations. So, the cause everything is so new and there's so many new challenges and new ways of doing things. The only really way to get through that is to work together, to make sure that we can actually make sure things are as smooth as possible. And be able to deal with this new way of working together.- Absolutely. And it's very difficult to work together when we're not all physically in the same space, right? It's all online, it's all remote. And that's a very different way of working together. Like in the past, we'd have the opportunity to physically meet someone face to face, but obviously now that's not possible anymore. And it's a very different connection to the individual, right? So before, as an interpreter, you'd go upto a task, chat with a desk person, have that like little chat. You kind of give them a background as to who you are as an interpreter and you build that connection but that's kind of disappeared a little bit, now. The computer turns on your work and then it turns off. I know you have some tech meetings in advance, so that you kind of get the opportunity to explain who you are. But that's more with the technical side or your organizers rather than the deaf person, like who often comes to the job and doesn't know who they're gonna be with on the day. And it could be, very, very difficult. Like if you have a whole list of people on Zoom, often you don't know who your deaf client is either.- Yeah, and especially, I suppose, if you think about the role of an interpreter at the job of an interpreter, it's a very human role, if you like,- Totally.- You know, it's based on trust and it's based on human connection and both the hearing and deaf person within an interpreting situation, they have to trust in your skill and your ability to be able to make sure that things are able to take place in a way. So, and I suppose sometimes it can be a little bit more difficult when that human connection is completely gone. As you said, Zoom suddenly a popup on a screen and then the call finishes and then it disappears. So, I feel like there's something kind of missing in what we're so used to in an interpreting situation because we don't have that human connection. And as well, it's so important to have those little conversations, have those little opportunities to build rapport with people because that's how you build trust. But without that, that's gone, how do we replace that in this new world that we're interpreting in?- You know, I find it really interesting cause at the moment there's more time for our like, hearing clients. So if you've got a conference, you have that little tech meeting or prep meeting and it bounced with that where you could kind of advocate for what our sign language is and kind of build awareness to the hearing client and to people who maybe don't know otherwise which is very, very good. But as you mentioned, trust with the deaf community is essential. So of course there are those deaf clients you work with frequently and you'd know each other in and out, and that's great. But what about the members of the deaf community who don't know us? And then, suddenly they're coming onto the screen with these new faces they're. Like, how can we combat that? I'll be very interested to see what Caroline says about that in particular cause we need to be able to create that connection with the deaf community somehow. Like, I'm sure the interpreters can do more, right?- Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm excited to see what interpreters can do, to try and replace connection that we're talking about and to make sure that everybody feels, you know, at ease and that things can carry on as normal as possible. I think it's also one of the important things which I actually saw recently. And in my experience over multi interpreting, was to be open with your communication and if you're having any issues, you know, for example, and I feel sometimes when it comes to remote interpreting, I suppose maybe you don't have as much access to background information or a context just simply because you're not physically there. So it's so important to actually be open about that. And if for some reason, I don't know or if I'm confused or I'm missing some kind of piece of information where my technology is having a meltdown or, you know, there's something that I need to do and I don't know how to manage it. It's so important to be open about that and actually share those concerns with everyone there. And I feel like that's one of the best ways to actually work together to make sure that everybody's on the same page and that they're aware if there are any struggles or issues or whatever it is that you're struggling with in that moment that people are aware of.- Totally. Like I said, like you have those meetings when you go into like, back pre COVID, you'd go into a meeting and you'd see the spaces and you'd be able to coordinate with the hearing and deaf light. But now that's very different. I mean, I would love at the moment to know if people understand me or not. Particularly going from a three D language onto a two D screen, just on a computer. There are short nuances that are dropped or missed. And I, myself, I'm trying to adapt to working on a two D space with a three D language. Sometimes I just don't know if it's successful or not. So if you have an online conference for an hour, maybe an hour and a half, you're signing away, you finished your task, you turn off your computer. And it's like, well, I don't know how well that was. You don't have that feedback from the deaf community. You don't have much in that regard. You normally in a meeting would have like a deaf person nodding or making eye contact. You're like, oh, okay. I know I'm okay. But at the moment I feel like, I'm on my own isolated Island signing into a computer and I really hope people understanding, right?- Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I suppose we were, you know if you're going along, you're interpreted away, you're up on the screen. And then next second, the meeting or whatever it is, the event finishes and the screen closes and there's no kind of chitchat. There's nothing afterwards, which would be so used to. So I can't imagine actually being a deaf person in that situation. Cause homeless they feel, when that total kind of pre and post chitchat is completely gone.- It is so different for everyone. Like you said, it's, you know, the same storm, but everyone's in a different boat. So we all know COVID is out there, but we're all experiencing it very, very differently.- Exactly, we all have different experiences of it.- That's it. I mean, that's why we had to talk about this episode in particular with the series. We can't talk about this as interpreters and not consider deaf community members and their experiences. And we need, much more awareness about how we can adopt in order to get the best service possible to the deaf community. I'm sure there's more we could be doing to make that a better experience for everyone.- Yeah, and it's so important to include the deaf perspective in the conversation, you know. Because at the end of the day, you know, we all need to work together. We, you know, we all need to work together and pull through this together, you know. Because, especially when it comes to the whole remote interpreting situation that's the only way that we're gonna achieve anything.- Like our title says, we're all in this together, right?- Exactly, on brand.- And you know, and we mean us.- Absolutely, mean us.- We do. And I think, now's perfect time to introduce our very special guest today.- I absolutely agree with you. It's a perfect time to introduce and welcome the lovely Caroline McGrotty. I'm so excited. It's SLIS, podcast.- Okay, so we're so happy to have our wonderful guests here with us.- You're so welcome.- It's good to see you both.- Thank you so much for being here today.- No problem.- We know you're so busy with a jam packed schedule.- I do anything for you too.- Oh, stop.(participants laughing)- You're making me blush.- Okay, so we may need to start with, if you want to say a little bit about yourself and your background, over to you.- Yeah, I think Romy mentioned a bit of my background. So I don't wanna repeat myself too much. But, my name is Caroline and this is my sign name with one hand.- Yeah, I think I always do it wrong.- And so really, I come from a deaf family, both my parents are deaf. I went to a mainstream and a deaf school. And, I studied in college with you guys. And as well as that, I studied other courses like teaching ISL, equality studies, deaf studies. And at the moment I work for an organization called Ahead. They're an organization that supports people with disabilities. And I run two projects on that. Both for employment. So, if people with disabilities want to upscale or advance their careers, that's one program I were on, and then also an internship program. So, I do a lot of disability awareness training with employers in that project. So we've been working there for eight years now in Ahead. And at the same time, we also volunteer with SLIS, Sign Language Interpreting Services. Also, for eight years as well. I just think that they're both great years. And as well, I'm a presenter on RTE, so I translate English into ISM. That's nearly 15 years now, quite a long time! So, really that's a quick little summary of me.- That was very quick, but I didn't realize you've been in RTE for 15 years! I actually thought that was a more recent venture.- Well, yeah, I suppose before that time, I would have been doing a program called hands-on at RTE, so at that time I was only about 17 years old and I was a deaf presenter. And so open till now. Yeah, nearly 15 years overall.- Oh my God, you've got such a wealth of experience.- That's so much experience. And that's why, I think I'm so excited to talk to you about this topic today because you've got experience, you know, both yourself being in the deaf community and also your experience, you know of working with interpreters and also organizing interpreters and briefing them. So you've got so much experience to do with this topic that we're actually gonna be discussing today. So, with that said, I'd like to ask you what do you think remote interpreting all in this together means?- Well, really that question I suppose there's no quick and easy answer. It's so complex. I think just when kind of COVID hit. It was such a new experience for everyone. Like what is remote interpreting? Like interpreters hadn't used that before? Well, some interpreters had experience in that, but for the majority of them they hadn't any experience remote interpreting. And as well as deaf people hadn't used that type of interpreting before. A lot of companies, organizations, employers, they all weren't familiar with how to use interpreters in that dynamic. So, it was such a new thing for everyone. We had to learn new technology platforms like Zoom, WebEx, so many other ones, like just all of us kind of encompassed in and all. And at April, kind of March time when the lockdown hasten everyone was working from home, I think we almost went into like a firefighting mode where we were just making sure everyone's safe and healthy and kind of accessibility fell behind. So, I suppose at the same time, people do kind of forget about accessibility and or if they had an interpreter for me saying it was kind of last minute and there was no way, kind of pre or post discussion with the interpreter. Like a briefing or a quick explanation as to an agenda, anything like that or afterwards having feedback. So, that kind of thing, definitely was lost in the kind of the start of the lockdown. And I suppose with real life scenarios, you would have had a quick chat with the interpreter beforehand or you would have seen them in the meeting. So that element is gone too. So I think remote interpreting it's just so new for everyone. And I think we all have to learn how to adapt and I suppose, change our own style. Do you know what I mean? So, I feel like it's such a new area for everyone. It's new territory.- It's a new culture, it's a new society. We never thought that this would happen in the world. This is so new for everyone. I mean, people in the past never thought a two hour conference would have gone online. And now here we are, today in this way. And like you said, interpreters are a bit of a last minute consideration and interpreters have a lot less work because of that. And I know that sincerely, the committee of Irish Sign Language Interpreters, did a survey that add up that like 90% of interpreters, where without work, because of that? And that just proves like you said, the first thing that goes is accessibility. And that's something we really need to bring up again. We need to get people's attention back on it, especially that because we have the proof to evidence that.- Yeah, and as well as that, I would say like, along with those new kind of platforms, like Zoom, WebEx, Microsoft Teams, Google Hangouts or MIS, I think along with those, one of them has an automatic captioning built in and in my experience, sometimes people think, oh, that's great. We don't need an interpreter, cause there's automatic captioning there. For us, that's not a hundred percent accurate. And it's so different. Like, say for instance, if maybe a speaker was translating or speaking on that was translated into English and the captioning, but how would a deaf person then participate in that conversation? So, I think some companies definitely need a lot more awareness around that. But they think, oh, it's brilliant, we've live captioning. And I kind of have to remind them, that no, it's actually language accessibility is what we need. We need ISL, Irish Sign Language. So, like explaining to them that, well, what happens if a deaf person wants to interact in that meeting or wants to respond or ask a question and then they realize, oh, sorry. Yeah, no totally. So, I think that side of accessibility we definitely need to raise way more awareness around that. That it's so important still to have an interpreter, even if it's remote. It doesn't matter if it's face to face or I have remote interpreting.- Absolutely.- Yeah, It's funny you mentioned that technology. It can be brilliant, but I suppose sometimes it can also kind of create a barrier. So now that everything is remote, that whole human connection is now disappeared. So you might think, oh, it's brilliant that we can do things, you know, through technology. But really, I suppose, linking into this topic of everyone in this together, but that human connection, that human link has just disappeared because everything has gone online. And, it feels like there's something missing in the whole kind of interaction. It's just such a different experience. And as Romy has mentioned, it is a different culture. And it is a little bit like that. It is like a different kind of culture this whole and change and adaptation to life online. And, I know I've definitely had experience of that before.- Yeah, I suppose a big thing, I'm noticing that's being quite difficult I suppose, for remote interpreting. So, I myself, I organize events that need interpreters present for those events, but I've also attended meetings where I myself, as a deaf person, I'm using an interpreter. So for example, when I arrive at a building, obviously pre COVID, i'd arrive at a building and I might see the interpreter and I haven't seen him in a long time, so we'll kind of catch up. And like, some of them were my good friends. So you might be just catching up on anything like quick chat before the meeting. And then we go into the meeting and it's very formal but like on the coffee break we can kind of chat again and has everything going on. And that rapport, has been built up there over the years. Where as now, for the kind of few meetings that are online and there might be interpreted there on the online meeting, but I haven't seen in a while, but I don't feel like you can say hello anymore. Cause everyone's watching. And if the interpreter began to sign and say, hello, then another person might say, or the person who's kind of facilitating the meeting might say oh, sorry, somebody's trying to speak now but no, it's just that kind of casual chat. And I think it's cause everyone's faces are so visible online, I suppose that element of human interaction of that kind of quick chat through the coffee break chat, like that's just completely different online, just because everyone's faces are watching everyone online. So that's definitely missing, I'm really missing that aspect of this. And I suppose yeah, a few times, even after an online meeting, I'd actually text the interpreter directly on their personal number. And just to kind of say hello rather than actually say it in the meeting, it just doesn't feel appropriate to bring up that kind of casual chat in a meeting. So that aspect is definitely gone. And I do suppose I am really lucky. I have a good rapport with a lot of interpreters. They know me very well. I know them very well and that relationship was already there in advance. So I can't imagine what it's like for a new deaf person or even one of the new graduate interpreters how they're finding building that rapport up online. I suppose, like, you know, the well known phrase, the water cooler talk you know, that's kind of business that jargon. Like where's everyone asks, they're all chatting at the water station or the water cooler. So that kind of chat, that's really missing online and that's such a big part, yeah.- And you know, that water cooler conversation also relates to interpreting and it's gone. But it's that extra peripheral information that we need. Like, I actually had that experience where I worked with a deaf client and, you know any political campaigning or a job that they were applying for. A lot of that external information happens at the water cooler talk. And I would actually have to like strategize with my deaf clients. Like maybe they'd be with me maybe they wouldn't, but I would gather that information and bring it back to them in a very different way. And that's like how you develop that hearing deaf's relationship, interpreter deaf relationship, and that's completely gone now.- Definitely. And I've even noticed sometimes, I suppose, maybe in a meeting, or even if I'm organizing interpreter for me saying, if maybe I want to say something in the next part of the meeting, I might just casually or secretly like sign to the interpreter just to let them know what I'm gonna say. And then let them know I'm gonna speak next. Making sure, just that they match my tone or if there's like a specific word I want to use. I wanna make sure that they use that word. So I might sign something like a specific sign but I want them to use that specific word in English. And that aspect's gone too, when working online. So it's really difficult to, I suppose it's difficult to have those conversations pre-meeting with the interpreter, those kinds of little briefings, I suppose. Like even when I arrive at a building, like pre COVID, I would have those kind of casual chats in real life. But online, there's just no opportunity for that to happen.- Yeah, and I'm just wondering, do you feel like there's any way to kind of improve that situation or anything that an interpreter can do to try and help with that, or I suppose, you know, of course in, you know face to face as mentioned, we have that human connection where It's very difficult to kind of try and replace that while you're working remotely. I don't know if you have any kind of ideas or ways that interpreters could do that.- Yeah, I suppose I think it's important for any kind of meeting, just to have that five minute casual chats. I know it's quite difficult. For example, like there could be maybe 20 people on an online meeting and everyone logs in at the same time and all the kind of videos are just logging in. And I know for hearing people it's easy to just turn your microphone on and have that quick interaction whereas the deaf person needs to make sure that the video is seen clearly. So I suppose I wish more people would settle that kind of casual five minutes chats before the meeting actually starts. And I suppose I'm a bit guilty of it too. Like if there's a meeting on a three o'clock I'll log in exactly at three. So, I definitely should log in maybe at 2:55, I know I should, but I definitely think if it was something on an agenda that at three o'clock until three o five, it's a casual chat for everyone. So, to just make it more relaxed and definitely to help alleviate that aspect for the interpreter and deaf participants.- Like I know for myself, when I organize events with an interpreter and we've had many events over the last six months that we've needed interpreters for, I think, especially cause I work with the disability organization. So I make sure that the interpreter has plenty information ahead of time. They have the presentation or slides that they know who the deaf participants are and who's the chair? Who's responsible for any tech issues? Like what colleagues to contact. So, I would give all that information ahead of the events, like a little briefing just explaining what's gonna happen? How the meeting is gonna work? Who my colleagues are, et cetera. And I suppose that definately does help, both at the same time when I'm in a meeting, those things aren't possible. So it's really difficult one. Yeah, I think.- It's funny. I know I've had some pre organizational meetings with some clients and not with others and often what happens in those pre-conference meetings. It ends up being, oh, well this is what Irish signed languages. Maybe they'd ask me, oh, why you have two sign language interpreters and might it's like, almost like advocacy. It's like this kind of small chat. Yeah, but we have a little time to ask about like interpreter questions or tech questions but I often find it's a little bit more beneficial for the hearing community. Cause we get the opportunity to explain what our role is. What our job is. But in terms of the other aspect of communicating with the deaf quite directly we don't get that as much anymore and it's missing.- Yeah, and I can even see sometimes interpreters are almost a bit afraid to sign at the start of an online meeting and you know what I mean? Like I can just see it in their face. I can see that kind of look of hesitation or panic. And it just even knowing that everyone's watching them not just the deaf person is watching them but all eyes are on the interpreter for an online meeting, just because it's so clear and obvious that the interpreter there maybe they have the blue background or they have their name change to ISL interpreter. And yeah, a lot of people, all eyes are on them. So I think that's one of the areas maybe that it would benefit just having that five minutes chat ahead of the meeting, if possible you know, and I do want to sign, it's not always possible especially in some large organizations like for example, at government department where they might have a consultation with deaf participants or deaf organizations like it, it might not be possible for those situations. But definitely for maybe some of those kind of more smaller business meetings or deaf organizations it will be more possible there, but you can't force them at the same time. So yeah, it's really difficult.- And I think it's one of those things that will become clearer over time. Like you said, at the beginning, it is a culture shift. The world has changed drastically and we're, as we've said all in this together. So I think as the culture shifts, hopefully the interpreter job will also shift alongside with it. You know, it'll always be that like something crops up that doesn't work so well, that will go out. We'd need to learn from that and then create a system that works better. Or we see something that works really, really well. And we like go further with it. Cause you know, we're all still learning. We're all still learning to cope in this new world.- That's exactly it. We're all learning at the same time. And I think in a way that's actually the nice part, you know it's not just the interpreter learning or say for example the deaf person, the hearing person who's involved in the whole situation that are learning we're all learning together. We're all in this together. We all have to work together and that's the only way that we're actually gonna be able to get through it.- Yeah, and I think as well as us, for online meetings, like they're new for everyone. I suppose it's funny, just thinking back in my own work scenario at our first online meeting. I remember seeing my whole team on Zoom, pretend there was 10 of us there on Zoom and like we would normally have a chairperson for every meeting, to just chair the meeting. And our first meeting was just chaotic. Like everyone was talking over one another and I was completely lost. So I started, I sat there and raised my hand and they were like, Caroline, what do you do? And what you wanna raise your hand for? That's like, I want to speak, everyone's talking over each other. Online, it's just so hard to kind of catch someone's body language. You know what I mean? Like, if we were all maybe in real life together in a meeting, you can just notice those elements of when someone wants to speak, they might lean forward. Or if maybe a deaf person wants to start to sign, they'll put out their hand to show that they're gonna sign there, but online, we just don't have that. There's kind of a huge power struggle of turn-taking. Like making sure that there was that kind of correct etiquette fraternity taking online meetings. So, whoever the chair of the meeting is, I think they have a huge responsibility to monitor that situation. And especially for an interpreter, being present as well. I think in real life, sometimes interpreter might have to interrupt a meeting or maybe ask for clarification, but online that just, it's impossible. So, and definitely for the person who's chairing that meeting. It's hugely important for them to be so aware that there's interpreters in this meeting so that everyone know to follow good online etiquette of either raising your hand or wait until your name is called until you speak or even having just a clear turn-taking list, I suppose. It's really important for everyone, not just for the interpreters but it's definitely way more beneficial for interpreters in the meeting, definitely.- Yeah, and definitely having that, you know try to preplan as much as you can in advance, you know. Just to make sure that things are able to run smoothly when it comes to us. Do you have any examples or something that's really kind of I suppose, impacted you or really stuck in your mind when it comes to an example of this?- Yeah, so I think for remote interpreting, I would probably put them in two categories, one for meetings and one for events, because both are very different. I have experienced in organizing events like for example, webinars or online conference I'm not sure what the correct side is there but an online conference and also for business meetings they're both organized so differently. So I think for the events, it really depends on what platform you're going to use. You need to be really careful making sure that your platform is accessible, if you're using Zoom. Especially if you using the webinar function on Zoom. And, the presenter wants to also share their screen and interprets same time. It's actually not possible. It only shows one person who's speaking. So we really need to be careful as to walk type of platforms or systems we're using for online events. And sometimes people aren't aware of that. And I think it's really up to the interpreters to be aware as to what platforms work well and what don't work well. And like I mentioned, we're still learning, but I think it is really important for interpreters to raise that awareness making sure that deaf people can access at these events. And at the same time as well, like with an event today is really important to make sure that if there is a technical issue that someone's there in the background, that you know, that you can message them and ask to be let back in the meeting so that, they can look after all the technical sides of it. And of course that comes with the pre-consultation for whatever kind of conference or anything that is along with an agenda. All those preparation materials are really important prior to the event. And then for the meeting side of things, I think it's really important as well just to have a really good chair, someone that just knows that they are responsible for chairing the meeting. Letting people know, how turn taking is gonna work. If you need to raise your hand, et cetera. And in my experience, using an interpreter in a meeting at an organizing event. I can see that it's a lot harder work. There's a lot more preparation involved than normal. And I suppose just people aren't aware of how to use interpreters online. And I'm sorry to say, it's a bit more of a extra workload for you interpreters. Cause, I suppose you're the ones who have that kind of first connection with the organization to let them know. And that even as Romy mentioned there, you might be letting that the organizers know what is ISL, why two interpreters are needed. It's that kind of extra raising awareness of turn-taking. So I'm sorry. It's a heavy load to bear of us. I suppose we definitely need to raise more awareness and educate a lot of these organizations. And I'm doing the same too. So I have, but I'm just one woman. We're all in this together.- Exactly, we're a team.- Totally. I remember one person, Maya Dewitt, she's a sign language interpreter. So she always talks about the fact that interpreters do have this cross to bear. You know, they do have to advocate. And I think, what she mentioned rings true in a lot of ways. Cause interpreters, it happens a lot that we become fed up, that we're always saying answering the same questions and giving the same advice. But she did say, and she's right you have to remember that like in a doctor's profession or in a legal profession, you repeat a hundred million times. But they're always patient throughout because they know that people are asking for a place where they need to know the answer and they want to know more. And I think as interpreters, that's something we have to bear in mind. We are doing the same thing as an interpreter. In our profession, we tend to be the first point of contact for the deaf world. And we do have that responsibility to represent the deaf community in a good way. So we need to remember that we are the easier, I mean, I hate that but we are easier to communicate with than deaf people. So we are that first connection and we have to remember that. And we must remember to, you know, be professional, explain things as needed, but maintain that contact.- Yeah, and I think even one kind of good phrase that my colleague has. I'm sure it's not her phrase. She's probably stole it from somewhere else, but the phrase is, they don't know what they don't know. So the only way they'll know is if we tell them.- Correct. Yeah, my mom always says that.- Yeah. And I think how will they know, if we don't tell them? So yeah, it is a heavy cross to carry but like you said, it's just kind of raising that awareness there. So I was just wondering, I suppose high to kind of lessen that load for an interpreter. Maybe within the interpreter groups or organizations or various committees if they were to create a set of guidelines. So for example at the point of booking an interpreter for a remote setting that they can automatically attach these guidelines onto that document. Here and ahead, we've actually created an online meeting etiquette document. So that's just really general rules for everyone. It's not just for having an interpreter present, but it just talks about having a chair for the online meeting. If there's more than 10 people, what's necessary? How to have correct turn-taking. If you're using Zoom, making sure you have the correct name under each participant and that's available on our website. And sometimes maybe when employers or if a person with a disability starts working in an organization that we can just direct their employer over to our website and they can look at that. So maybe that's an idea for any interpreting organizations or agencies might just help lessen the load. Well, it won't really help lessen the load, but it's easier. It's been killing your writing in black and white that, you know it's there. Sometimes when you just mentioned something to someone in passing, they forgot about it, but when it's there on a website or attached as a link, it leaves more of a lasting impression.- Absolutely. I think that's an incredible point to make.- I suppose, one other good thing. Well, I'm still a bit unsure about this myself, I was in one meeting and I think it was at the start of all the remote interpreting and everything was very new. And, but I remember going into a meeting and there was a mix of deaf and hearing participants and it was online. And I think there's maybe 12 or 13 people on Zoom. And at the start of the meeting, I kind of realized that whoever was chairing the meeting they told all the hearing people to turn off their camera. And just to leave the camera on for the deaf participants and the interpreters. When I first got logged on to the meeting, it just got so odd and strange. Like why are cameras only on for the deaf people? But I kind of later realized that for an interpreter, they need to be able to recognize kind of who's signing back to them quicker. If a deaf person wants to make a comment, it's easier for them to kind of catch their faces on screen without having a mix of hearing participants on the screen. So I think even for example, pretend if like, if I wanted to make a comment on the meeting, then interpreter can see me straight away wanting to make a comment. But for me as the deaf participant, it was just so strange. Like when a hearing person, when they were talking I could only tell that they were talking because the interpreter's expressions would change. I couldn't actually see their face. So I think there's two sides to that. Definitely, for an interpreter, it's much easier there to recognize and to see the deaf participants. But for me as a deaf participant on that meeting, it was so strange not seeing everyone's face. So yeah. I don't know, maybe you guys have experienced some that or not.- It's a hard one. Normally, it would be all cameras off in my experience, or all on. It would never be to do with hearing status, but normally I mean like incredibly big meetings that are online with like 500 plus people. So you don't have anyone or in really small intimate ones. So the small intimate ones you'd have all cameras on because it's more conversational. But it's interesting on both sides. Like, as you say, there's two sides to all of it. I love having that feedback from a deaf client, knowing that they're understanding but with a conference online, that's impossible. Like, I don't know, who's watching me nine times out of 10 and I have to try my best to interpret but it's very difficult without someone looking back at me giving me those natural cues. And then if I can see like as an interpreter, if I can see who's not, if I don't see who's speaking, that throws me as well. If I just hear them as like this voice in the distance, it makes it very, very different. Like, and as you said, body language is crucial. You can feel that, you can see that, but without it, like the conversation is flash. You miss these elements. Like in real world, we used to have people like with pens in their heads dictating and it had like a lot of nuance associated with this and that's gone, you know,- Like master character.- Yeah, exactly. The face to the voice is completely gone. It just disappears.- Yeah, and I think that for me that's why I found it so strange on it. It did only happen the one time, but it was so strange. Luckily it hasn't happened since then but I do understand why it was easier for interpreters so that they could see the deaf participants if they wanted to make a comment in the meeting. But I just never, I suppose it was never taught or from the other perspective that a deaf person might not be able to catch. And the hearing people's, their faces like the way, or the tone that they're saying something.- It's all learning though, all of it.- Okay, so moving on to our final question, do you have a top tip or a little Pearl of wisdom that you'd like to put out into the world and share?- All I can say really, is that we are all still learning and we will all make mistakes. There will be technical issues and that's okay. It really is, and we can do really at the moment is to just educate ourselves about what types of platforms there are, what platforms are accessible, Zoom or WebEx or any of those. We need to educate ourselves on that. We need to have a good online meeting experience. Turn-taking is so important. And as well, we need to try if we can, if possible, give a briefing to the interpreter before and after the meeting. I understand it's not always possible but sometimes it can be possible. So for example, with an interpreter last week they actually just texted me directly and for any feedback on their signs. And I thought that was great. And I just like let them know that maybe their lag was a bit long and that feel free to catch up or to interrupt. And they were really happy with our feedback. So it's great to ask for feedback after the meeting as well. And I'm sure deaf people don't mind if you have their number. And of course there's boundaries there. Definitely, we need to try to learn how to adapt to this new situation. And everyone is still learning and we have a long way to go. Yeah, so I think for the future to definitely, we want to obviously see improvements and to make changes in how we work. Like for example, like pre COVID, we all thought conferences, have to be in person. I never realized that now they can be online and we can save money. And I suppose now there's no excuse not to pay for an interpreter. If you're saving money on food,(speaking faintly) I know I'm being a bit cheeky now, but you there's a lot of savings to me the past few months that we haven't been paying for venues, we haven't been renting places or paying for food expenses. So it's a good excuse may be to pay for interpreters for accessibility. Just throw that one out there.- Absolutely. Absolutely, say it to the world.- Exactly. That's a great idea.- That's fantastic.- Brilliant.- Perfect.- Yeah, and I think as well you know, that's a very practical tip that you can use in an everyday situation. So, I feel like I can really do with any help I can get at the moment. So like I said, it goes to realtor printing. So that's a great help to me.- And as well, asking for help. That's no problem. Ask deaf people for help. Or if they have any advice or even here in Ahead in our organization, our website, we have the guidelines there. So feel free to adopt them and send them on to any organizations that book you, just put it up there, we're happy for our material to be adopted. And it's there to be used by everyone.- I honestly just want a personal tech team to be with me all the time, cause I hate being in charge of my own technology. And like I've had people, like give me the ISL explanation a hundred times any day of the week, but actually managing my own technology, no blanks.- Yeah, I suppose six months ago, I didn't even know there was such a thing as Zoom. And now I'm an expert. I know, spotlight people, I know how to change names, I know how to do everything so I can put it on my CV. I'm a Zoom expert.- She's got 10 out of 10. Absoulte professional.- Well, nine out of 10.(speaking faintly)- Yeah, we're off slowly.- So true.- Brilliant, well, thank you so much. I think, that was a lovely end.- I think it was a nice conclusion.- A wonderful conclusion.- Thank you so much again, for coming onto the podcast Caroline. It's Lean, podcast.- We would like to thank David Hay, our video technician, extraordinary. Isabelle Walshe, art director, Supreme. Aisling Dragoi, our dream translator. As well of all of our guests for making these episodes possible. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Lean podcast, the mini series. This has been made possible, thanks to the Sign Language Interpreting Service, SLIS, and the citizens information board. Without them, this never would have happened. Please follow us on our social media accounts on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram at the Lean podcast underscore and know that we now have a Patriot account. So if you have any heroes despair, we would really appreciate them. So we can continue doing what we love, talking about interpreting. Thanks for listening. Bye.