The Good Wives Guide to True Crime

The Serial Killer Whisperer- Interview with Laura Brand Part 1

January 31, 2020 Fancy Macelli, Tori Johnson, Christina Aliperti & Colleen McShane Season 2 Episode 1
The Good Wives Guide to True Crime
The Serial Killer Whisperer- Interview with Laura Brand Part 1
Show Notes Transcript

Laura Brand is a forensic psychology practitioner known for her work interviewing serial killers. She's going to be a guest speaker at Crime Con in May 2020 but we've gotten the chance to sit down with her first. Our second season will include lots of amazing interviews and tons of cases. This is the 1st of a 4 part series on the Toolbox Killers, Bittaker and Norris. Laura worked closely with both and she's got some interesting information to share. For more inside information, documents and pictures beyond this podcast join us on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/truecrimewives and check out our YouTube channel for our weekly Sunday true crime discussions and much much more at https://www.youtube.com/c/MurderByDesign Our Music comes from incompetech.com and Composer Kevin MacLeod https:/filmmusic.io "Come Play with Me" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...) "Mysterioso March" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...) "Pop Goes the Weasel" by Kevin MacLeod (https://incompetech.com) License: CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...) Kevin Macleod Music Credit: Kevin Macleod. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/truecrimewives/message

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spk_0:   0:01
If you really like this episode, please support our podcast by going to pay tree on dot com slash true crime wives and get lots of great extras. Hey, guys, fancy Miss Ellie here from the Good Wife's Guide to True Crime. And if you haven't heard about anchor is the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain. It's free. We all like free. There's creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer anchor will distribute your podcast for you so it could be heard on Spotify, Apple podcast and many more. You could make money from our podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. So download the free anchor app or go to anchor dot FM to get started on the Good Wife's Guide to Two Crime. We discuss crimes that some may find disturbing Listener discretion is advised. Hey, folks, it's time to grab your glass of wine because the good wives fancy Colleen and Kristina are about to serve up another true crime case.

spk_1:   2:11
Wait Welcome to Season two off the Good Wife's Guide to True Crime We are super excited for all the things we have plans to season. It's gonna be a tad bit different from Season one. We won't be focusing on one case. We'll be bringing you all kinds of different cases. We've got some amazing interviews planned. And some huge cases, including some missing person cases, were hoping to highlight and help the families finds. Just tonight we have a very special bonus episode for you to show you just a sneak peek of what we've got planned for Season two. Laura Brand is a private eye and forensic psychologist. She is known for her work interviewing serial killers and has recently worked with both the toolbox killers Lawrence Bit Occur and Roy Norris because of her work with Whitaker. Before he recently passed, she was able to get him to give her the coordinates of where two victims were buried that nobody had ever found. Laura will be speaking at the upcoming crime Khan in May all about her time with Whitaker and Norris about her upcoming book and documentary. But guess what, folks? We've got it here first, so this is part one of a four part series will be doing on the toolbox killers. We are so excited to share this with you.

spk_0:   3:52
How are you this evening? How are you going? Are you guys were great? Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited to talk with you. I think it's so funny. I found you that day the day I was looking and just Yeah,

spk_2:   4:04
I was gonna ask what day did you guys find me or like, how did you guys find me?

spk_0:   4:08
I was in a group with you, and you were promoting the, um I don't know what you're promoting. It was one of the things I think you were talking about an upcoming interview. Or or maybe it was that your book. I really don't remember what it was, but I was like, Oh, my God, that is amazing. And that was when I started messaging you and telling you this was like a lifelong dream of mine. Thio and um oh, right, right now remembering. Yeah. Have you had

spk_2:   4:39
contact me right before the crime calm announcement came out, actually,

spk_0:   4:43
Yes, Yes, right before that. And I Congratulations on that. I was thinking I sent in an application, but I didn't realize that it was happening soon, so I just sent in an application, like a week or two ago. So I don't assume that the podcast will be chosen. But now I know. Why doesn't In the next year? I

spk_2:   5:05
think they're still choosing podcast. But I heard No, I think they they

spk_0:   5:11
couldn't choose you guys fingers way have a right, a different thing. So, like, we kind of have something really different that no one else has. I mean, I mean, David Collie had something similar with Susan Powell's family, but that was so different in what we're what we did with gypsies. So because right only ones that have been in that inner circle of people so

spk_2:   5:37
well, I hope you guys get it. I'll promote it on crime.

spk_0:   5:39
Khan for you. You're so excited if you like. Oh, my. It would be amazing if that happened in our first year of our podcast. Getting chosen to go to crime. Khan. Oh, my God. I think

spk_2:   5:51
I really do all push for you guys to get it to.

spk_0:   5:53
That would be really Oh, my God. I wanna be

spk_2:   5:58
like everybody there. I can't wait to like, see everybody from like the true

spk_0:   6:01
crime. I know it's our dream. I think it's a great a great thing that we get to, you know, come together like that. There's one that's coming up closer to me. It's later in the year. It's there, crying, like where you get to solve. Ah, a true crime case with, Oh,

spk_2:   6:19
uh, what's it called? The crime solved? Yeah,

spk_0:   6:21
I'm solved. And then there's a crime cruise. But I really wanted to do crime calling like, um, but we go out late in the game, so who knows if they'll choose us? They're not. Hey, fingers crossed. Are you guys going? Regardless, um, we Probably if we don't get chosen this year, we probably won't go. I might go to the crime solved. Yeah, definitely. On our next year. 2021. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of journey. Like, out

spk_2:   6:48
of, By the way.

spk_0:   6:50
I am halfway like I'm in Kentucky half a year, and then I kind of go back and forth between and checking in California. I am originally from California, and then Colleen is in Wisconsin. Oh, you and there are other Partner. Christine is in New York, but she's not with us tonight. No,

spk_2:   7:07
that's awesome. What part of that California Not by Frankel in if it

spk_0:   7:13
no. I grew up in a town called Riverside. Uh, it's about an hour now. It's, like, really three hours with traffic, but really, really only an hour away from l. A. But, uh,

spk_2:   7:25
I was gonna say you're like, sand burn. Burn it. Edo is

spk_0:   7:28
that it? Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I

spk_2:   7:31
know that whole area, cause that's actually where the bigger Norris case.

spk_0:   7:34
Yes, it plays. Yeah. ISS where the medical tourism. I do know that it's so funny. You just get to claim Jeffrey Dahmer's. I

spk_2:   7:45
actually want to do one of the Jeffrey Dahmer walking towards

spk_0:   7:49
I don't do it. No, no, no, no, no. It is so juicy because it's so light on his feet calling. Come on, now. Well, no, but there's not a lot of places that he, uh, got guys. Problem are closed. We don't have bathhouses anymore. His apartment building was torn down. Um, it's actually funny. My husband's uncle, uh, did the shoeshine in search of freedom. Oh, my. Well, we're Yeah, weird. Weird small connection. That's weird. B, I grew up, Just like, actually very close to where his, uh uh, grandma lived. Well, I grew up in hell on, you know, when the night stalker was a big deal and I was right. Oh,

spk_2:   8:38
my God. Yeah. I was gonna think he was going in the houses, which

spk_0:   8:41
is even Yes, teenagers. I was petrifying. Uh, how did you get, like, involved in interviewing serial killers?

spk_2:   8:53
You know, I went to school for front of psychology, and, you know, I was saving for a master's and write one on, So I got out of school and I went to talk to a friend of psychologists. And he goes, you know, you should start doing your own research Once you start doing that, you know, you'll get the field experience, you can start doing your own work. You know, you can still, you know, keep your feet in the game, You know, while you're saving for school. So I was like, Okay, you know what? That's what I'll do. And I came up with my study and my questionnaire, and I started sending it into the prisons, and I got a massive, massive response from it. And that's actually how it just, like, snowballed into what it is six years later today, Um and, yeah, it's gonna be the largest collective study ever done that.

spk_0:   9:37
Is that the same? That is so cool. Yeah. So Okay, you mentioned the question here. So I'm gonna jump ahead and ask you about that. What is what is your question here? Tell us about it. What do you do when you're interviewing the killers and using this question here?

spk_2:   9:51
So pretty much all I come just pretty much open question so they can take it. They can run with it and answer in any way they want to, like open ended. Um, pretty much it would be like a deep philosophical question. So pretty much, however, they want an answer, they could answer it. And then I took the answers and actually put them back to back to back with all the serial killers.

spk_0:   10:13
You can

spk_2:   10:13
actually see which each one is answering, and you can actually start to see, like the you know, the commonalities with each of them, or if there's any correlation between the way they answer the questions or

spk_0:   10:24
it's really like

spk_2:   10:26
inside and like their mind in the way they're thinking and

spk_0:   10:29
write. What a great psychological tool. I'm Ah, a nursing instructor. I'm getting my MP degrees. So that is fascinating research. Yeah, I've always wanted to do like the profiling. Like that was when I first went to college. That was one of the first things I went to college for. It was law enforcement and profiling, and I was gonna be, you know, I wanted to do like something for the FBI. Although I've always my hope. My heart has always been in in the entertainment industry out Makris and writer and producer and stuff. But, you know, my mother told me you have to have something to fall back on. So I was gonna do that. And it's so weird that now I'm here at 45. Like using all of those things together. Yeah, exactly. Combine

spk_2:   11:12
it all together.

spk_0:   11:13
Such a weird, weird, strange thing that had I kind of fell into you by accident, you know, um you know, So you said you were mailing them in and getting responses. Yeah. Yeah, I know what? The 1st 1 where you actually got to go in and talk to somebody like live

spk_2:   11:29
that was San Quinn. It was so weird. Um, e I think the friend psychologist said, you know, try saying Clinton and I was like, What? What this man

spk_0:   11:38
Clinton like? What? Yeah. So then

spk_2:   11:42
I figured out it was like, the largest death row, and it was

spk_0:   11:45
like, Okay, so

spk_2:   11:47
that's actually where I started. And that was the first place I went to go. Interview was Franklin and Vinegar with one of my first interviews I ever had, actually.

spk_0:   11:56
Wow. What? I, uh, favorite accused killers is in there were actually having a debate on this later. Uh, not coming. Yeah. Now she thinks I think he's He's definitely guilty. What do you think we're at tele? Objective?

spk_2:   12:14
I knew that question

spk_0:   12:17
was

spk_2:   12:17
stomach. Um, honestly, like, I don't Honestly, I'm really torn because, like all the evidence is circumstantial but that, you know, it's just so weird, like the evidence against them like that phone call. He made it

spk_0:   12:31
like where he's calling,

spk_2:   12:33
and he's like, Hi, sweetie. And he's giving the exact time, which I thought was weird. Like why you're getting a time in exactly where you are. It seems like he wasn't leaving it for her like, almost like he was leaving for the police. Finally

spk_0:   12:45
there. That

spk_2:   12:47
Yeah. So I heard that I was like, Oh, it sounds like he's leaving for the cops, not for her. And it was just two loving. It was too over the top for me.

spk_0:   12:55
And then you will.

spk_2:   12:58
No, I've actually never talking to Scott like you, you know, because I'm doing the study on serial killers. But he does come down to the visiting a lot, actually.

spk_0:   13:06
Oh, why can't I be in killed? Morning. Oh, calling for a meeting with him. It's behaviors like that, and that's what I feel like. This all boils down to whether it's one right it ill or or several kills. I feel like the killers that fell into these categories. I really do feel like it's, you know, unless it's a crime of passion in the mood of the moment. That seems different to me. But the ones that plan it out or do something being like this, whether it's Scott or a serial killer, I feel like there's patterns of behavior. And that's kind of one of the things that I go on with that case because I feel like that's really, um where I feel like you can't dispute those things. They're classic behaviors, you know? So

spk_2:   13:49
his behavior was just so weird the whole

spk_0:   13:51
entire time. And then when

spk_2:   13:52
he ordered the porn, the night,

spk_0:   13:54
his things like, I just then and there I am always in the middle, like there's

spk_2:   14:00
no like evidence, like really saying it. But then his behavior is just so freaking weird.

spk_0:   14:07
It was like, Yeah, yeah. All right, well, we'll move on. We won't make you talk about it much longer, but what was it like the first time you got to sit in a room with a serial killer?

spk_2:   14:17
Oh, God, it was It was a trip. I had no idea. Like when you go into San Quentin, it was gonna be like those little dogs styles, kennel type cages, Like I was thinking, you know, through the glass of the phone or whatever, Right? And you get it all into death row, and they're like, All right, um, you know, we're gonna padlock you in this tiny little cage, and we're gonna take their cuffs off. And I was like, What?

spk_0:   14:38
You know what?

spk_2:   14:41
And that was like My first prison experience was going on to death, I think, in death row and then throwing in the cage with them. And it was, you know, I think Vickers one my 1st 1 I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm on death row and

spk_0:   14:53
they're throwing,

spk_2:   14:55
you know, one of the most significant serial killers into this tiny little cage. It was it was a trip, but

spk_0:   15:01
it probably

spk_2:   15:02
broke me in for like, the rest of my prison experience is like because I was like, After that, it was like

spk_0:   15:07
I got it. But I

spk_2:   15:09
was 26 or 27 at the time I was

spk_0:   15:12
going on. And you're like this little itty bitty thing. Oh, my. Yeah. I could not have imagined being like that for your first experience. Like, I would love that. But I don't e don't know, first experience, and I think I'm 25. I would not mind. Tell me more about your brain. Doesn't already know what you're like.

spk_2:   15:35
You're like, I just want to study your brain and, like, get into your personality and like your mindset and thought process.

spk_0:   15:40
Yes,

spk_2:   15:41
it's It's so weird. Like

spk_0:   15:43
my my husband thinks I'm nuts because I watch all this stuff and he's like, No one says I need to know why. Why? Why not? Why? Why? I think it's

spk_2:   15:55
a primal thing. I think there's like a primal survival thing within us, especially that's wiping. Why young girls were really drawn to it, like you want to kind of know what's gonna happen and like howto, you know, prepare for it like And I think that's why women especially, are really drawn towards like your crime. I think really it's like a primal instinct is like We want to understand it. We want to know more. We want to, like, protect ourselves from this type of stuff, pretty much

spk_0:   16:20
thought that, like women are drawn to it because we are emotional and thoughtful. People like men go on like instincts and specifics and things like that. They're very factual. They're different than women, who really kind of analyze and look at everything, always like that's all we ever d'oh! You know, we're always constantly analyzing everything. So I've always felt that Oh yeah, like we have a need to understand things. Men are just like it is this, that is it.

spk_2:   16:49
So it's Your women are so like detail oriented. Like we're

spk_0:   16:52
looking at every single

spk_2:   16:53
aspect of everything. So

spk_0:   16:55
right.

spk_2:   16:55
And I think that's why women make such great. You know, um, investigators know there so great for the The field is really looking at every little aspect of everything, and they're not stopping and kind of

spk_0:   17:07
like a

spk_2:   17:07
dog with a bone.

spk_0:   17:08
You know, speaking I was like that compassion and emotion that women have. Did you have you ever had that kind of connection to any of the killers you've interviewed? Oh, yeah.

spk_2:   17:20
Especially if it occur. I mean, I literally was like a dog with a boat with that case. I mean, I I still have, um but yeah, it was like I just kept harping, Especially when he gave me, like, where the bodies were. It was like, Okay, we're gonna, you know, get down to every little midi gritty detail. We're gonna explore everything I want to know every single aspect of your childhood, your young adult life. Like I just want to dive in and, like, really, really defected. And yeah, I got so involved. Like, you know, every aspect of having his brain thought process the crime, You know, the victims. And then I became close with some of the victim's families, and some of it's the surviving victims and everybody on the case. I just really dove in, and you d'oh, you get that mentality is like you get so close to the people at home to me. Really? Do you start going even deeper and deeper and it really does. It becomes like your passion and your obsession. Um, but, you know, I hope that turns into something, you know, into a second search for these girls. They hope it makes an amazing book. Amazing Docuseries. I hope it shows like the passion and the obsessiveness I had for this case. I hope it comes through everybody.

spk_0:   18:31
I'm sure it will. I'm sure it will, cause I I listen to you talk about it now. He gave you those like you. I heard you say something like five minutes there 10 minutes into the first interview that you were with you with him. He gave you those locations, like, is that you know? Yeah. Yes.

spk_2:   18:47
So that was actually a couple years. So after, like our 1st 1 what was interesting is I was pregnant seven months pregnant at the time. Hey gave five minutes and he gave the body on DDE. I think my pregnancy triggered him. I think there was, like, a and he wasn't just him to it with the other guys have interviewed interviewing at saying Clinton is they all just seem to open up, like, 10 times more than they ever had. When I was sitting with them pregnant, it was like, Well, which especially bitter carcass it occur. And I didn't really get along like I really had a break him down to get into his mind on. And it was when I was pregnant, it was a 1 80 different, and it was five minutes

spk_0:   19:30
in here. Here, the body meters there, Feeling like a vulnerability there. Like little

spk_2:   19:37
he had. Um, see, I I was in a really, really bad relationship. Uh, the guy had actually kicked me out when I was pregnant,

spk_0:   19:45
right? I read about Yeah,

spk_2:   19:47
so it was a really bad situation, and I think that triggered him because his mother was also in a very, very bad situation with his father, and, um, pretty much she ended up being a single mom and she gave him up for adoption within the family. And he always thought in his mind that if she had kept him that

spk_0:   20:07
he would

spk_2:   20:07
have gone on to be loved and had a normal life and never ended up like this. So I think when he

spk_0:   20:13
saw

spk_2:   20:14
me like in this really bad situation with a guy and then saw me homeless and pregnant, I feel like he was like, Oh, my God! Like it triggered his mommy issues because it was so similar to what

spk_0:   20:26
his mother Syrians ended up

spk_2:   20:29
giving him up. Well,

spk_0:   20:31
I was gonna say a lot of killers, you know, their background is that they had a really troubled childhood, a troubled relationship with their mothers. We talked about that in the Gypsy case because Nicholas go to Jonas, who actually killed Gypsies Mom. And in his interrogation video, he made the statement of he had never felt the love of a woman before Gypsy not like romantically like ever. So that included his mother in that. And I really kind of assess the situation if I felt like there was such so much over killing so much passion and killing and killing DD that I think he was killing his mom like he's He's very angry. This mom, his mom abandoned him while he's been in prison. Um, and so I really felt like a lot of serial killers are doing that. They're like they're not killing the person that they're killing their killing up on, actually, other person, right? So

spk_2:   21:22
it's a circuit. It's for specifically for the mother. But it can be like an ex girlfriend. It could be anything but, but yeah, typically, it's always usually the mother, always a type of mother issue. But yeah, it's always a surrogate for somebody else, is what you're saying. And three with vinegar, I think, personally for ham, I think the rapes were geared towards his first quote unquote love.

spk_0:   21:45
Um, And then I think

spk_2:   21:47
the actual murders and torture were towards his mother and the anger he won't know had towards her.

spk_0:   21:55
Now it's so since I know he just passed away recently. So do you feel like a sense of loss with that? Did you feel like you, you know, somehow gotten close to him in that Rome? You know? You

spk_2:   22:08
know, it's where we got Redick. It very close. Um, you know, because we're working together so closely.

spk_0:   22:14
Um,

spk_2:   22:14
but it's like a It's almost like it's a weird lot. It's like you lose a co worker or E. I don't even know That's even too much of, like, how much loss I felt. Um, but the thing was, we still have a lot to investigate and a lot more unanswered questions. So it was, um

spk_0:   22:32
it was

spk_2:   22:32
more of the loss of like, Oh, God, you know, we're getting down to the end and there's so much more to do. And it was just It was really scary. And then, you know, I mean, I guess, Yeah, like it. It is sad to lose somebody you're working so closely with. Um, I guess I didn't think I grieved for him. You know, It was, um it's weird to say. Like when you lose a serial killer, Not like you're sat like you're not like

spk_0:   22:58
bad, but it

spk_2:   22:59
is when you're working so close to somebody like, Yeah,

spk_0:   23:02
there's a loss. Of course. Was it like a heavy kind of feeling? Like, I guess it was just like yeah. Yeah. And I understand that I can definitely understand you feeling a sense of, like, there's so much more that we need to d'oh! You know? Right. So when you know, he's revealed these two, Did you feel like there was more that he hadn't given you yet? Or, um, yeah. Yeah, And that's probably at the biggest problem for you.

spk_2:   23:29
That was the biggest thing is, uh, uncovering Maurine? Yeah, in thinking about the victim's family.

spk_0:   23:35
Have you talked with his partner at all that? The other

spk_2:   23:38
I have, I Actually Norris was actually the one who is really friendly at first been really welcoming, and, um but he found out like I told you about the book he had called, and I said, You know, I'm gonna turn this into a book. I'm I'm gonna look for the missing victims, and he freaked out and I said, No way. Hey said I didn't I don't consent. And I said, Well, neither did your victims.

spk_0:   24:01
And you just

spk_2:   24:02
know, shut down. Which I get because, you know, he's up for parole.

spk_0:   24:07
So for how he doesn't

spk_2:   24:08
want any public of the or any, like, talk about the case, you know?

spk_0:   24:12
Wow, we're dealing with this right now. with the chips. Get eight. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Okay, so I worked with the Gypsy case for three years and everything was good. I was very close with her stepmother. I had been to visit the family. I talked with her mother's family. Things were great. Not great on Nick's side. His his father was just totally ah, weirdo from the very, very beginning and asked me for times in times of money. And I mean, it was just nuts, but I was very close to them. I was close with Gypsy. I had a great relationship. And then, um when I started investigating more and more things and questioning things that I was looking at and finding, Ah, our relationship began to crumble. And then, uh, we Finally we had asked for over two years to get Gypsies interrogation video. We all had Nick's. Ah, we had had Nick's interrogation video. We had Nick's parents that were questioned. We did not have gypsies. And there were all kinds of these conversations that we had and reasons why we didn't have this video. And finally, another station that I was working with for a story gave it to me because they had it because they just did kill her couples. So she gave it to me. She's like, What do you need it? I was like, Yes. Ah, she was. Well, actually, I got it as a public document from where Nick wasn't Wisconsin, where they were They originally arrested because Greene County, where the murder took place, was not releasing, but Wisconsin did, and I didn't even look. They're so as soon as we got that, like the whole way of dealing with this family changing overnight and the whole case trained for this case paint for us because we realized that they had been lying about so many things and we and that was the same reason. Like they had created this little idea of this like all American girl who was totally abused by her mom and that she couldn't take it anymore. It's still her mom. But when you put it all together and you watched that interrogation video along with all the text messages and then what we see of gypsy today, you realize it's not at all what they have put together. And they turned on us in a hot minute like it was brutal. And so now I think, Oh, you're going. Especially

spk_2:   26:32
Norris, too. I think

spk_0:   26:33
he plays the

spk_2:   26:35
innocent victim, and I think he was very scared. That same exact thing was about to happen. I

spk_0:   26:41
was going to show a

spk_2:   26:41
light on, too, being higher thing.

spk_0:   26:44
And it was just like, yeah, yep, 100%. Just shut up for parole in a couple of years and yeah, it's brisket. Heard she's It's It's It's a crazy case. I don't know if you've ever followed it or anything, but yeah, it's super strange. Like it and what everyone thinks they know. Nobody knows. No, no, no. The closes with

spk_2:   27:08
every case to cases like

spk_0:   27:10
you

spk_2:   27:11
people think they know about it. You're like, Oh,

spk_0:   27:12
no. Well, now you're going. You don't know anything like, you know, I'm like thousands of documents that we have. No. Okay, then you know nothing. Really. No. Give Give the podcast to listen if you have free time. Yeah, definitely. You should hold it. It's a lot of info. It's, like, spread over like, 15. If so, you have seen up. So how did it go? Crazy? Yeah, that was our first side.

spk_2:   27:39
Wow. Do you think she is, like, innocent? Or do you think she really was like,

spk_0:   27:43
No. Oh, no. She totally got no guilt Feel totally. Yeah. Yeah, she manipulated the hell out of that kid like, and I'm not saying that he's not bad to because he has his own freaky tendencies. Like he was, in my opinion, he was a serial killer in wait like, yeah, talks about how he's always wanted to do it. And, you know, he wasted no time. And when once she gave presented that to him, that was all he wanted to do, you know, and crazy all these different things. And I really, truly believe that if they had got away with it, there would have been much more there would have. It would have gone on to be a way bigger situation, but no, I don't think she is is very depraved. Me like people. A lot of the media has portrayed gypsy as this Munchausen by proxy victim. Um and it was at first when she was a child, you know, when she couldn't make these decisions. Yes, it waas. But as she got older, she became a willing partner in the scamming and abused, and it really turned into a malingering and, um and yeah, it's And she just she had had enough and she wanted to be free and with a boy, and that's what it really became. It was about a boy. So you think she

spk_2:   29:00
thought him out because she knew he would?

spk_0:   29:02
Oh, I think that start off that way. I think she was looking for love in any way she could, because she wasn't happy where she was getting because her mother wouldn't let her have any relationships. You know, um, I do. But it could have been a situation where her mom of a new and thought that she could kind of manipulate who she was, you know, talking to on the Internet. Maybe they would give them money and different things and stop because that was her mom's ultimate things up. But I think once she realized when he told her that he was a you know, 5500 year old 505 100 year old vampire who enjoyed killing, I think my light bulb went off her head and that, like nobody here, is that it goes okay, shit up to see her as my boyfriend. That's That's my guy. 500 year old vampire killing people know that. Really It is

spk_2:   29:57
that it really reminds me of the case. I did. Um, I interviewed with name. There was a guy in Florida who said the same thing. He was a vampire, and he ended up killing these girls

spk_0:   30:07
parents, too. Wow. Wow. Yeah, it's just crazy. Okay, so you have so much going on, you're going to crime con. You've got a book. You're working on a documentary, you know, how do you keep it all organized? Because we're gonna let me do too. But you seem to be on, like, outrageous pilot. I

spk_2:   30:30
mean, I I honestly have no idea. Like, I'm It's crazy because everyone goes Oh, the book, you know, study. Ah, the documentary. You know, now I'm preparing for crime. Khan, they go. How do you do it? I go. You know, it's funny. Everything you're hearing about is actually all my side work.

spk_0:   30:46
But who's

spk_2:   30:46
my side gigs

spk_0:   30:47
actually

spk_2:   30:48
work 40 hours of the p I. So it's like, Oh, wow, Matthew Metal work as a single mom too. So I'm

spk_0:   30:54
just I

spk_2:   30:55
don't even know.

spk_0:   30:56
I know.

spk_2:   30:56
You know, it's crazy. I make a list every day And like, Okay, you gotta talk to this person, email this person to a meeting with this person. You know, um, I try to stay organized, but yeah, I'm just trying to do everything I can and,

spk_1:   31:10
uh,

spk_2:   31:10
it's been working, but I don't have a secret code. I'm just

spk_0:   31:13
all the time to go. Go, go. I think it just in people like like those of us that do that. It's I think that it to drive that we just have to say right he'd like especially. I read your story, you know, and coming from the fact that a you know, a year before all of this started to really turn around for you, you were homeless and pregnant, like so idea. It's almost like a fight or flight. You know, you had thio. It was there was No I've heard, like a couple of of of ah, like motivational speakers Talk about that. Like when there is no other choice, You just d'oh and

spk_2:   31:48
you D'oh! You really D'oh! It's just I had it. You know you have a son coming into the world again. Three months and you're homeless. At the time, I actually lost my job at every place I was working Shut down. So I'm like, uh, all the way, like my values, like Richard protruding. I could not get a job anywhere even if I tried. So now I'm homeless. Jobless? I'm alone going through all this and I'm pregnant. And I didn't even have that much money, my bank account. But I said, you know what? I'm taking the risk. I'm doing it. And I flew this thing, Quinn and my thought was to interview Vicar Wayne Adams, Ford and Douglas Clark. And I was gonna write

spk_0:   32:23
a book

spk_2:   32:24
about the three collective interviews. And then when I sat down, did occur and he gave me the placement of the bodies in the evidence. I was like, Oh, my God, this is gonna be

spk_0:   32:32
you

spk_2:   32:33
know, this is the book 1000 this is going to send me. I already knew right when he gave it to me. Like my whole life had changed because I knew you'd like I had to go find those girls like it just became a mission for me. Like I just wanted to, you know, just a super motive. Like, all right, what can I do? How do I do this? And, you know, it spiraled from there, and I got lucky. And, you know, people took notice. And of my production company found out in Hollywood, everything I was doing. And then I've been tracking every down from case, and that's how they contacted me. And then, you know, I just started working the book by myself, and now I'm here in talking to you guys and go in a crime Kong, which it's so crazy like, how much your life can change. But you know it. It all comes down to, like, if you're willing to do the work and really work for it, too.

spk_0:   33:20
Well, that was the thing. Like, that was what made me want to reach out to you. Like I you know, I've been in the groups for a while, and I kind of talked to several different people. Like, I've talked to Dave Kali, um, and you know, different things, but, um, I'd never write, really tried to reach out, reach out. And I am 45 years old, and I have tried my whole life to do something, but it just never quite worked in. This last year has been just a hell of a year for our team. Me and everything that we've gone through with the Gypsy case in the last year has been just outrageous. And I was sitting on the couch and I saw what you had said and talking about your story and what you were doing a year ago. You know, a year before this and I looked at my husband and I said, Damn, I go look at what this woman has done in a year. I am going to do that like and and I and that was it like I was like, I'm not. I've put in a lot of time in the past year, but when we've got ourselves to a really good start, but I'm going to just make this happen, I think finally I'm on this right path, and so that was why I reached out because he was such an inspiration, what you had gone through and what you had just done in a year. I was like God in a year. That's what she did like crazy. So

spk_2:   34:31
yeah, it's so weird. I never thought like I'd be an inspiration. I am getting flooded with just mail from girls going. You know, I never thought I could do this kind of work or

spk_0:   34:40
go into this work or where I had

spk_2:   34:41
women who were pregnant and alone as well. And they're like, you're you just help me. And I was just like, you know, it's it's so wild. It, like, really does bring me in tears. And I think, like, Oh, my God, Like just telling my story is helping people like to think like, Oh, my God, I can change everything in one year. I could just start working for it. It is incredible. I'm

spk_0:   35:01
going. You have the material for your second book? Yeah, right. Well, thank you so much. I have so many more questions for you, But I don't want todo too long. I know it's Thank you so much for joining us late at night. Here. Of

spk_2:   35:16
course. Definitely. I Hopefully I'll see you guys at Crime kind or will we'll definitely be crossing paths.

spk_0:   35:21
Yes. We're gonna be crossing pass, and I'm gonna keep you in my little box of people to talk about it in a while, so I made it rain once in a while on a case so straight way get in. And if you end up, you know, their searches or whatever that are done because of your work, please let us know because we would love to cover that, So Oh, definitely. Of

spk_2:   35:42
course, definitely. I really appreciate that, too, because I'm trying

spk_0:   35:45
to bring as much

spk_2:   35:46
attention as I can to the whole entire case.

spk_0:   35:49
Yeah, which is now. Yeah. And hopefully we can, you know, do that for each other. Yeah, well, sort you and get your name out there. Yeah, definitely. It's so very much. Have a wonderful evening. Okay. Thank

spk_2:   36:04
you guys for having me on. It was great.

spk_0:   36:07
You probably have a good night.

spk_2:   36:09
You two.

spk_1:   36:17
We can't think Laura enough for joining us tonight. We'll be back in the upcoming weeks with our first full episode on Michael Alig, a New York City club kid who murdered his friend Angel. We've got a special surprise guest for that one, too. We can't wait for you to hear, and then we'll be doing three more episodes on the toolbox killers, including a second interview with Laura all about her time with Whitaker and Norris specifically, so be sure to subscribe, so you don't miss out. Thanks so much for tuning. In addition, true crime with the good wives. Don't forget to join her Patri and member club to get the full rest next year. Tonight, inside documents and pictures from the case. Bonus money podcast episodes like you to discussion an exclusive invitation to our discussion group on Facebook and get some amazing good wives merch. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at True Crime Wives and for more inside information, check us out on YouTube at murder by design. We were currently talking about a few different true crime cases from bullying murders. Two serial killers We dish it all have a good one. Good wives serving up true crime, one dish at a time.