S7 E09 - Torturing Pensioners

In this episode Dylan is joined by Harry Palmer to look at every Big Finish story released in May 2026.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome back to Doctor Who Too Hot for TV. We are the podcast that looks at all things Doctor Who extended universe. Today I'm joined by a brand new guest, but you may have heard him on Strangers in Space and other such podcasts. It's Harry Palmer. How are you doing, Reese? Welcome. Thank you. Very excited to be here. And we're doing it actually in the flesh in person in my house.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yes, in Dylan's sort of treasure box of extended media. There's stuff in here that I've only ever seen on quite obscure shops on the internet.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yes. We're surrounded by spinoffery and nerdy paraphernalia. It's everything you'd imagine this room to be. EDAs everywhere. Yeah. You can't move for Paul McGowan. Well, you're a brand new guest around here. So I need to ask you, how and when did you become a Doctor Who fan?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Well, that's an easy answer. It's uh May 1996. Oh. Having already been aware of Doctor Who and a bit scared of it, having seen sort of clips on the 1992 repeats, saw a bit of the mind robber and thought, no, that's not for me. I'm eight years old and I'm fighting. As a 12-year-old, I watched the TV movie and was hooked immediately. And I I distinctly remember as the credits went up, thinking, oh, I'm a fan of this now. And then I duly bought the video, and inside the innate card there were lots of pictures of exciting Doctor Who videos you could buy.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Of course there was. The weird thing about that is, didn't they immediately cancel the video range and like delete loads of the titles when the TV movie came out?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

They did, which was hard work for a 12-13-year-old and his parents who didn't understand why the shops weren't carrying. But uh there was a very, very good branch of MVC on Chizic Highway was living. And there was quite often a long line of uh videos to buy. Excellent. And then from there, what was your relationship, or do you have a relationship with spin-off media? Absolutely. I went away to boarding school when I was 13, and with me I took a copy of Bad Therapy, which was fine. A copy of Gary Russell's Business Unusual. I mean, I'd say always Gary Russell's business as unusual. And I f I think I took a video with me for some reason and a subscription to Doctor Who magazine. Right. So that all counts as uh as spin-off media, and then later on, MVC would carry real-time VHS. It was dirty bus. I know. So Auton was in the shop. Wow. And you bought Auton. I did buy Auton and I watched it by myself. Did it feel like a gritty grown-up drama? No.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Frankly. Did you know it existed, or was it just like one day you were like, that's the Automs from Doctor Wing?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I was aware of it from Doctor Who magazine. Because when I get into something, I pick it up quite quickly and I I sort of get quite a lot of knowledge about the topic quite fast. Yeah. So Doctor Who magazine carried a lot of adverts for things. And so by the time I'd been a Doctor Hing fan for sort of 18 months, I already knew that there were conventions and there were spin-off media, even though I didn't really understand what spin-off media particularly was. Yeah. But I knew these things existed and that I could buy them if I wanted. And do you have a relationship with Big Finish at all, or did you at any point? I have a long relationship with Big Finish. Right from the days of Bernie's 1998, blory days. On cassette. And as soon as The Silence of Time came out, I was on board. I remember listening to the cover-mounted trailer CD that they brought out on the magazine where they were talking about this fabulous new range of canonical Doctor Who. Yeah. I remember I remember Maggie C B was going, now it begins on that CD. And it was fabulous. So I mean, today I'm I'm certainly not going to be trashing Big Finish because I love them. And during the wilderness years, when there was no prospect of Doctor Who on tele, it was honestly, I would listen to an episode a night for four nights a month. Amazing. In bed with the lights off and my Discman and be completely immersed in using these stories.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I spent a lot of time listening to Big Finish, I would say on mega buses. Yeah. But it was like, I'm going somewhere, it's going to take me four hours, because everywhere's four hours on a mega bus if you're lucky. Yes. And it was just the perfect time to get through a double CD on my discman, you know. Perfect. And they were so well made as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah. Because I'd heard things like the archers. Which was just, I don't know, people making squelching, mooing noises. You know, evidently, you could hear that they were standing round, you know, in the studio. Whereas I really felt that, I mean, Big Finish, they sounded amazing. They really, really did. Yeah. And they sounded I I got completely immersed in the stories. And I've I've got some favourites. I've still got about 50 CDs from that first young. And I do go back to them occasionally for some nostalgia. And I think they stand up. I think they're fabulous and really, really good stories.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Absolutely. And like all Doctor Who, there's ups and downs and things you love and things you don't like so much. Yeah. But there was one CD a month for a few years, it was really exciting. And then it turned to two. And then it was three. And then Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

They discovered what we might call a business model.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And uh Yeah, I mean, if it works, it clearly works because they haven't slowed down. It works for somebody, not it works for Jason Hageller, his bank manager. So we're doing something a little different today. We are discussing Big Finish, but we have decided. Well, I could have sort of thrust this on you, but you volunteered. We've listened to an entire month's worth of Big Finishes output from May 2026. So, I mean, a fair old chunk. And this is something I've been thinking about doing on the pod for a while, because I just wanted to get. There's a lot of cliches that are spoken of in fandom about big finishers output and things like that. And I kind of wanted to put them to the test. And I just wanted to feel like if I was going to because I still dip in and out of big finish, but there's there's loads of it, so you're not going to listen to it all. But I I wanted to know what it would be like for one month to listen to everything they did. So did I.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So did I. And what an adventure it was. May I just highlight the fact that this was 13 hours and 41 minutes of big finish. Oh my god. Or were you going to do that?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

No, I wasn't. I've not worked that out. I've done my homework. 13 hours and 41 minutes of big finish. We have truly done this, so other people don't have to. I'd like to take each release in the order it came out. Yep. We'll see what we get out of them. We might some of them we might talk for a long time, others we might skip over. Who knows? So the first thing to be released in May on the 6th of May was Branches, featuring the Eighth Doctor, Alex and Cass, and also Susan, directed by Ken Bentley, produced by Matt Fitton, and written by John Dorney, Alison Winter, Tim Foley, and Patrick O'Connor. So this is a time war thing. Do you think the time war is something worth exploring, or do you prefer it as a mythos in the background?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

I personally prefer it as a mythos in the background because for me it's such a huge thing, and it seems to have been going on for so long, which works because it's the time war. But it it it's it's such a massive plot, and it seems to go on and on and on. And I don't feel like I would ever be able to get a real handle on what's happened and how it all fits together.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah. This obviously is not the first time war box set or anything like that. My first time. How did you feel jumping into this ongoing series?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

I felt like it it's quite there's there's enough exposition so that you know what's going on. Yeah. So I didn't feel completely lost in it. It was immediately apparent that they were in another universe and they were looking to see what had happened to, I think, Daleks, Time Lords, and um Cass. Cass in a different universe.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Good old Cass. She literally appeared in a webisode for five minutes. She has got a series out of it because I would say that's a big finish cliche number one right there. Taking a minor character and doing major things with.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

What was incredible was finding her in an alternative universe with just a very, very slight different inflection in her voice, which is our different character. Do you like an alternative universe story? I love Inferno. Well, there you go. I I do love an alternative universe story, but I think you've got to do something interesting with it.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I'm heavily into the e-space trilogy, as are all heavily, heavily users of these trilogy men and women of taste. But I I did feel that they didn't quite make the most of the idea.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, I love an alternative universe, and I do think Doctor Who should do more of it. You know, you're traveling through time and space and making little changes all the time. And I like this sort of pocket universe setup. The stories within it are all fine. Like the first one is obviously John Dorney doing something experimental. It jumps around between timelines and things like that. And I'll be honest with you, I love John Dorney's writing. And I think this is probably a good story, but I just couldn't get into it.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah. I had the same problem. It was, it didn't feel like the jumping around had a purpose. It felt like it was he'd decided to do it first. Yeah. And then had sort of written a story around it. Yeah, and for me, the story didn't warrant it. There wasn't a reason for it. It was just a style stylistic device for me, really.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

And we've got obviously it's the time war sort of Daleks show up, and we've got this sort of Mr. Dalek character by Nick Riggs.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah. In the bin.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

In the bin. I can imagine if you've never heard Big Finish before, and you're 22 years old, and you want to learn more about the Time War, this is probably a great box set. But I really felt like it suffered from having too small a cast, perhaps some underdeveloped ideas, and just like it kind of felt quite far removed from Doctor Who itself, which I guess is the point. But I don't know, I just couldn't quite it it was not an easy listen for me.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

I mean the box set overall is nearly five hours, it's virtually five hours, and some of the stories I felt worked quite well as I mean, I quite liked The Council and Susan as a story. Some of it, but then it kind of lost itself. I I think I think when you've got such a massive box set like this, you've got to have a really strong thread running through it. Yeah. And I think it's a pity to have good stories and good ideas sort of lost where they're only going to be heard by people who are committed to spending five hours listening to listening to this.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

And I wonder perhaps if I'd listen to all of the time more Paul McGann releases, whether this would fit in quite nicely with them, and I'd walk away going, Oh, yes, this this this story just keeps on giving.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I think so, but I think if you don't, I think many things in your life would be different.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Susan, the council of Susan, yeah. Susan is there. Caroline Ford's there. She is, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

How do we feel about Carol Ann Ford still playing Susan? I've got no problem with her still playing Susan, but don't bury her in this massive box set. I think she should be having something more high profile, um, and being a sort of semi-transparent sort of projection that she is. And it's it sounds they've just they've slightly distorted her voice.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

And it it sounds a bit, I think, I think give her a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

I mean, she got more story time than she did in Shooty Gather's era, but she she did, yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

But perhaps quality over quantities is quite.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

What do you think about McGann and his entourage?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

I love Paul McGann. He was my first doctor. He's a very nice and very handsome man. In this, he elevates everything. You could have Paul McGann, he could read, he could read your phone bill to you, and it would sound like a mysterious story about phoning mysterious people. And it would be wonderful. But I just think that no, the the material is beneath him, I think. I'm sorry to say. But yeah, he's great. His son, Sonny McGann, is a very nice guy. I'm not a fan, I don't think he's got the chops.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah, I felt a little bit like you're someone that gets three lines and something, but because your dad's Paul McGann, you've got a big part in this.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, I mean, I felt like he's probably doing a better job than I could, because I'm not an actor, but he's he's a bit flat and unconvincing, and he doesn't have a lot of urgency to what he's doing. I think the key with audio drama is not sounding like people reading it off a page. Yeah. And he does to me.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I feel the same. Cass. I th I mean I think Cass works as a supporting character. Like it's quite silly, but in it's a very Doctor Who thing to have somebody who had five minutes suddenly become a key part of this character's lifetime. It's a very big finish thing. It's a very big finish thing. But I buy it, and you know what? I'm not Cass's biggest fan. No. But I like the energy she brings. She felt this was curiously blank to me, I thought.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I found that she was a little bit kind of I hadn't quite made the connection of who she was, if I'm honest. Right. And I hadn't quite realized that she was Cass as in Cass. Right. So that's a massive fail on my part. That makes me a bad fan.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Well, no, it doesn't, because it was somebody who was in a five minutes of Doctor Who that was on the red button.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

But there wasn't anything particularly good or bad about her. And she's supposed to be an alternative version of herself from this alternative universe. And that doesn't really fly from me either.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah, all in all, at least give her an accent. All in all, this box set, I think, is fine. When people talk about big finish churning them out, it's things like this that's I th that I think of.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

It really is things like this. And there there are some nice things in it. There's some good music. Yeah. The Council of Susan's got some beautiful music in it. The sound design's a bit all over the place. In the first story, it doesn't sound good to me at all. Right. And I was listening to it on good quality headphones. So I was expecting to have a really good big finish experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

But meh. I don't think there's any objectively bad scripts here. I think there's ideas that need a bit more nourishing and a bit more encouragement. I think I don't know how long they had to write these things. I don't know how many drafts they did, but I gather that return over at Big Finish is quite quick. And on a good day, all of these stories have the potential to be really good Doctor Who. Yeah. But say Standalone. Yeah, standalone as well. Yeah. One in particular, I think it was the last one. I was like, actually, fleshed out, this would make a really good fall parter.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Because there are lots of ideas in there that were just sort of petered away because they're not 50 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

They're just then gone. Yeah, and then it's hanging you over into the next box set. Yeah. So next month you can spend another four hours, 53 minutes listening to Sonny again.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Well, yes. Well, hopefully he'll get his own box set.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

I don't doubt it. Anything more to say on this one? I don't think so. I didn't not enjoy it. But I there's nothing in it, you know, I've got audio plays which I know I will listen to again. Yeah. This isn't one of them. It's it's impenetrably on. Yeah. You've got to dedicate, I mean, five hours of audio is that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Every few years I'll go back and put back on the apocalypse element. Absolutely. Or Whispers of Terror. Yeah. And I'll have a good time listening to it. This, I can say I've listened to it. And if you ask me about it, it's been two years' time, I won't remember a thing about it. No, I'm already struggling. Well, yeah. We're not going to rate each of these. I'm going to ask you to pick some highlights and lowlights at the end, I think. Yes. So the next release came on the 12th of May, and I believe it's called Aegis. Now this. Featuring the 13th Doctor and Yaz. It was written by Noga Flation, directed by Ken Bentley, and produced by Noga Flation. It's the 13th Doctor. 50 minutes of new Jodie Whitaker. Does she feel at home on audio?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Yes. She does. She absolutely does to me. And you know, you and I are both fans of the Witted era. And I remember when they announced this, I think I whatsapped to you about it. You said that you'd already ordered all of the studies. I I did. You did. And I do not regret that decision. No. It's fresh and it's entertaining. It's a it's a writer I don't know. Yeah. I really, really enjoyed it. And one of the things that really sort of really came across to me was how much Jodie and Mandit are enjoying them soon. Yeah. When we went to the fabulous Star Fury Flux Convention, which was not only the best organized Doctor Who convention, but sort of the best organized event that's ever been put on in space. We met them and had the opportunity to see that energy in person. And they're not putting it on. They really love their characters. They love working together. And they absolutely love Doctor Who.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah. And I feel like this range, because I've heard this is the only one here I've heard twice. I heard it when it came out. And then over the course of just today, I put it back on because we haven't decided to do the podcast when I listen to it first time around. And it loses none of its charm the second time around. But this range and the Eccleston and Piper range they've done where they're alternating monthly and having one new 50-minute adventure every month with either Eccleston and Piper or Jody and Mandip. And you know there are some running themes to it and things like that. And like the tourists. But that's what I liked about the early Big Finishes of like just dipping in once a month and which obviously I can still do, but it feels fresh. It feels doing what Big Finish do best. And it's not a classic, but it's just like for 50 minutes, I'm with my favorite Doctor Who and companion. They're having a great time, they have a really solid story, and it's loads of fun.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Absolutely. And I think something about this, these stories is that you've got to give stories some time to breathe. Yeah. And I think if you're immediately moving on to the next thing, which obviously, you know, we wouldn't normally do normally listen to 13 hours of big finish in a month. I think if you have one story a month, you've got an a month before the next one comes out. It lets it sit. Yeah. And you think about it. And by the time the next one comes in, you're ready for the next one.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Exactly. And, you know, they're just, as you said, when I've said it, they're having so much fun. This is what I want from Doctor Who. I want it to have an energy and a vibrance. And Paul McGann, when you give him a good script, is on fire. And Paul McGahn is never not good, but that you can tell when he's enjoying something and really into it versus when he's saying the lines and acting and giving a solid performance. A professional performance. Yeah. And listening to Paul McGann in that previous box set, I was just like, yeah, he showed up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

And he showed up, he did a decent job. Yeah. He played the Doctor, but he's he's he's not going to remember it actually. That's action. Whereas I thought with this, I mean, this is a good story. This is about you know war and weapons and defense corporations and it's a good enough story. And then also you've got the stuff about the tourist, which I'll I'll be honest, I've only listened to the first in the series and this one. So I now want to go and listen to the rest. Because they want to know more about the tourists, because it's a I like a little thread, but I like a thread that doesn't take over your individual stories. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Exactly. You can jump into this and you go, oh, the tourist, that must be an ongoing thing, but it's not it's not impenetrable. No. You don't have to know who the tourist is. Like with the Paul McGambox set, you kind of you have to kind of know who Cass is. You have to kind of know that Alex is his grandson from a previous Did you even know that? Of course I didn't know that. Why would I know that? Alex is she is Susan's kid. Right. And he dies in a Lucy Miller audio, and for some reason, he's back. Okay, well, obviously I've missed that one. How does it compare to the era, the TV era?

SPEAKER_00 22:03

It's not a complete sort of takeoff of it. It doesn't feel like you're listening to the 13th Dog era for me, which is I think probably a good thing. Yeah. It feels fresh enough, it feels new. But yeah, I think it captures the spirit of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah. I mean, I think it's got the energy of it, and it's not just their performances. Pacing wise, it's the same. I think whoever has scored these Jody ones, that's the thing I'd bump up against a little bit the most because Saganakanola is divisive, and I think some people love his music, like us. Yeah, absolutely. And so it absolutely underpins the era. You're going to always have to be marching to Murray Gold. And other people I think weren't so into him. And I think at Big Finish they've gone, no, we're going to make this give it some Two Papoctor Who music, which actually doesn't work from a it kind of removes it from the 13th Doctor a little bit, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah. I mean, one of the things about the Chibnel era is the sound is is so so different. Yeah, I think that's why a lot of Doctor Who fans didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah, because it was such a a tonal shift in many, many ways.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

But I hope that Jody and Mandip keep doing Big Finish for a I don't want them to go forever, like uh some people, but if every few years I got another four or five stories from them, I'd be really happy.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Every couple of years, do another few, um, have a have a story arc, some good individual stories, bring in some fresh new writers, jobs are given. Yeah, and they'll they'll enjoy it as much as we've done.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Exactly. And it's nice, I don't want to shit on the other doctors in Big Finish, but it's nice to have a slightly more youthful energy to the audio range.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

It is, and we you know, we've been listening to the others for for quite some time now. Winners the Silence of Time, 27 years ago, sometimes. Something like that. Something ridiculous. Yeah, and they were all in there. Yeah, all of them. And they're all still there now. They're all still there now. They've actually not left the studio.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Much more to say on that one?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

No, other than this is something that and one thing I looked out for in doing this project was does this make me want to hear more? Does it?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Absolutely. Excellent. Well that's very enjoyable. That's really good. And I think I do think there's this thing of increasingly when Doctor Who's on tele, you want it to be doing something bigger and more, and it's like you're willing it to almost be better. Yes. When you've got something like this, and they're constantly trying these box sets and things like that, just having a 50-minute fun adventure is actually really nice in a s in a way that on telly, because you get so little of it, you kind of want every story to be a classic.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

But also on telly, every story's got to be about the end of the universe. Yeah. And you know, I I quite like Doctor Who when it's just it might be the end of this little corner of the universe. Yeah. Or these people. When the lighthouse, yeah, everyone might die here. And they do pointless.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

When the show comes back, I would love some lower stakes episodes. And it doesn't mean the threat isn't real, but the world or the universe doesn't have to be at stake every time. Because that's where you can develop characters. Yeah, exactly. And like, sure, this doesn't exactly flesh out the character of the 13th Doctor and Yaz, and by the nature of Doctor Who and their era being over, you can't do that. But you're right, the supporting characters within this feel quite fleshed out and like interesting and insightful, and you're like, like they're memorable enough. And crucially, it sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yes. It's well made, and the settings sound like real settings, and don't sound like people reading in a room.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, exactly. Everyone's trying their best to make this sound like a dynamic bit of audio. Yeah. Bravo, big fittish chave. So just two days later, on the 14th of May, we have Dark Gallifrey, The Meddling Monks Part Two, featuring The Monk, The Nun, written by John Dorney, directed by Jonathan S. Powell, and produced by Robert Valentine. Now, this one, we are jumping straight into them. It's a three-part story released over three discs on a monthly basis. We're jumping into part two of three things. How did you feel? Did you pick it up?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I am not a fan of this in any way whatsoever, unfairly. I did not like this. I found this very difficult to listen to. I did pick up what was going on about 10 minutes in. Yeah. Which is fine. Because we're doing it this is the way we're doing it. We were aware that we hadn't heard, you know, the first one.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah. And I think that's an important part of doing this. So like we're trying a month of it. Yeah. And it is not how I would choose to listen to something more.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

No, and if you're if you're a follower of the monk, you would be, you know, listening to the minimum. Yeah. I I found this pretty difficult to listen to. I I sort of understand what it's trying to achieve, but um it's it's it's it's it's a hell no for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

What was so difficult about it?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Was it was it the format? It was the comedy, which I'm afraid just completely landed flat with me. Right. I found it very, very queen-quility.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

I mean, I think to a certain extent it's supposed to like it's set in this, I suppose we should say for people, it's set in this weird, they're clearly trapped in a sitcom that is being influenced by external forces.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

They're lost in a radio for comedy. Yeah. And I think that's a fun idea. It's a little bit punch-fun by Rob Shannon. Yeah, it does feel a lot better. But do it for 10 minutes or or or 15, not for three CDs. I found it it went, for me, it went on and on and on. And the laughter after every line, which I gather from the behind the scenes is not canned laughter. Well, it's it well, it's canned laughter in the sense that they've recorded it and then added it. But it is people who work for Big Finish laughing together to make it sound more inactive.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

But woof. Not for you, not for me.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

So this range, or bit not only this range, but this run of three monk stories has been getting rave reviews. People are like, you've got to listen to this trilogy. It's brilliant. When you say rave reviews, people think this is really Doctor Who fans? I didn't dislike this. I I just kind of felt like this is not a jumping on point, and so I couldn't quite I couldn't get into it. I think this is one of the big issues with Big Finish and their formats. This should be a box set. You know, the three stories, because it's not accessible, uh so it should be a box set.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

It's not a monthly release. But I think even if you are going to go and be trapped in radio for sitcoms, I don't think you need to do it for this long. And I know it's d I know that you know the first one is a is a sitcom, the second one is a game show. But it it's for me, it was it it went on and on and on, and they were they were sort of ramming home the point way too much. And they're obviously very pleased with it. If you listen to a behind the scenes bonus thing, they're very pleased with it, and they they do I think they view it as being very, very funny. Right. Which is obviously, you know, a subjective thing. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

And I I'm not without a sense of humour, but I d I just found every sort of every every little joke they put in like I did think it took too long to get where it needed to go in order to say, oh, this because that by the end of it, they're being surrounded by the audience that have turned on them and basically want to tear them apart. And I thought that was quite interesting, and so I was a bit like, oh, I want to see where this goes down.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

And that could be a great bit of kind of dark comedy turning to horror. Yeah. I think Jonathan S. Powell has has done a huge amount of work on this. Right. And from the behind the scenes is he's he's done a lot of the production and and you know, he's he's done a good job. And he's he he's a great guy, big fan of Jonathan S. Powell. But for me, this is just it's the sort of thing you don't want your partner to walk in while you're listening to this. You'd cover it up. You'd pour in fact I did.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

There's a couple of moments when the ventriloquist is torn apart by the audience. I thought that was quite a good moment. But I was constantly going, is it the gods of Ragnarok? Is it a land of fiction? Like, like where are we with this?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

I think the trouble is for me, the good moments I was already too annoyed. Right, fair.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

I quite enjoyed this, to be honest. Yeah. But I f I find it hard to be objective about, and I think I think this is probably more at my street, and I would would have liked to have heard it in the right order. But I didn't like it enough to warrant me then going back to listen to part one, then do two again, then do three. I never listened to this ever. Great cliffhanger of the monk and the nun having to call for the doctor. I think that's quite a good cliffhanger.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

That worked beautifully, I thought, because it's kind of bringing them out of this kind of this kind of trap. Yeah. I think there are some really good ideas, but I think just do it for a half an episode.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

How did you feel about the opening trailer for a romance film about people that really love stories? I'd rather not talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Okay, okay. Why sorry, no, this is a podcast I should talk about. That's the format. Yes, that is the film. I I um yeah, I hated that. I hated that with a passion. I thought it was You know, when something's funny and you know a lot of people are gonna find it funny. For me, it was just I'm actually shuddering forward. I think it had to be there, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I don't know, like Are you there? I was just about there. Yeah, I didn't mind it. I thought it it was an interesting idea, and I don't particularly have a huge interest in the monk if he's not played by Peter Butterworth, if I'm being truthfully honest.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah, I mean there was a there was a little bit of what about this character is the median life? But yeah. This is a zany guy who does a time like, but is it the monk? I mean, I'm sure. It's Rufus Hand playing Rufus Hand. I I like Rufus Hound. I've seen Rufus Hound on stage, and he's very funny, but yeah, uh yeah. Well anything else you'd like to add to that one? I think I've got noted down here why Dylan Why Yeah, no, it's it's it's I I think I quite like the the the idea of the candle after is quite good, but it's after every line. They haven't used it and it doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Fair. Well, I think we'll agree to disagree here. Again, I'm not gonna sing its praises to the point of calling it an absolute banger or anything like that, but I was intrigued. I was horrified.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

I I hate I really hated it. And I I like it when Big Finish and and anyone does something new. Yeah. But to me, it just once it was obvious what it was, I thought, okay, well that's that's fine. No one keys can I stop listening to this?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

And stop you did. So we travel forward to the 19th of May for Fear of the Light, featuring the War Doctor, the second Rani, written by Roshana Patel, directed by Ken Bentley, produced by David Richardson. This was the first box set I listened to for this. How do you feel about recasting The War Doctor?

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I think The War Doctor is a good character for an episode. To answer your question, I think Jonathan Carly sounds like an impression to me.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Which I think when you're doing an impression, you then don't have the range within that impression to put in a performance that feels like a character.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

So there's too much growl growl. There's too much, don't call me doctor. Yeah. A friend of mine did say that they had listened to a lot of the War Doctor dramas with John Hurt and said that most of it was him saying, Don't call me doctor, I'm not him anymore. Yeah. In the first, I think it was the first two minutes, he says hard choices. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Make hard choices. Jeff Well, good at that. You could do it if Jonathan Carly gets hit by a bus. I am. We're all Jonathan. Yes. The ongoing problem with the War Doctor is that you've got a range with someone who is basically just the doctor, but occasionally he'll be a bit more ruthless, but ultimately there's not that much difference.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

So there's a part where he says exterminate and kills a Dalek, which I think is it's not something that the Doctor would do.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

No. But I don't understand why, because this is set much earlier in the War Doctor's life to be saying Day of the Doctor. It's even got a picture of young John Hurt on the front cover. I think it's the same picture that was used in the webisode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

No, no, quite probably. Maybe that's the omen picture of this.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

But at that point, why does he sound like an old man?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Because he's the war doctor and he's all tatty and ravaged.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

But like, it's the perfect opportunity to just go, we're doing the younger war doctor. You don't need to do an impression. You can do a younger character. I think they've just not thought of that. Yeah. Possibly. I like the idea of the war doctor in Day of the Doctor.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

It's a great thing. When the War Doctor turns up, it was it was fantastic. Absolutely. And they did the audio range, they did 14 stories with John Hurt. I really looked forward to that range. And it it didn't deliver really. Was it just John Hurt saying, Don't call me that? There was a lot of that. I think by the end of it, they did some really interesting stuff, and they got they did sort of good time-wary ideas. And I think there's like three or four of them that really nail it. And if it had just been those three or four, I think it would have been a nice thing to have. But I've got no interest in a recast. I I lot some recasts within Big Finish, I'm all for. There's some caucus. Well, quite spoilers. But no, like I'm sure Jonathan Carley is a lovely man, and I don't dislike him for doing it. He's a jobbing actor, someone's given him that job. There are certain people that really like this range, but fuck this box set is how I felt.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, it's hideous, isn't it? It's it's I mean, there's like the Eighth Doctor one, there's some nice ideas. I really like the idea of there being a part of a planet called the Twilight Enclave. That's really poetic. Yeah. The fact that there's a sort of golden zone where you have to live on the planet. Yeah. And then there's a tetrap. Really, really because there's got to be a tetrap because time and the Rani, and then you know, the Rani has to talk about now.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah. For the second time in the month, we've also got the nice Daleks things or the the like because it's in the time war box set. It's in this time war box set. Every now and then a story will do, oh, there's some good Daleks or something, and it's a good twist, but twice in a month.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

I feel like it happens a lot, and I'm very bored of that. Yeah. And also, I I I struggle with Daleks on audium, if I'm honest. But I quite liked it when they did the first ones, you know, 20 years ago. It was quite exciting to have Daleks back, the genocide machine. That was amazing. Yeah. Apocalyptic to them and that sort of thing. But this makes you think what am I doing with my time? And you've got Nicholas Briggs shouting in your ear through the ring modulator. And yeah, the good Daleks, there's this, it's this what can what more can you do with Daleks? I think not a lot if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And it's our second box set this month that's got Daleks in it as well. Yes, but Big Finish love Daleks.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Because quite often, you know, around various chat groups or whatever, you'll see somebody's favourite new Big Finish cover. Yeah. There's always a Dalek. There's always a Dalek. Usually an ood. Yeah. And then three people from different eras of Doctor B.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Lined up. Lined up. From what I understand, the reason they do that is because stories with Daleks always sell better. So, you know, you can't begrudge them that. As you say, you know, it's a business model that seems to be working for somebody. It's got the Rani in it. It does. And I quite liked it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

She felt like the Rani.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yeah. And I think I can roll with this version of the Rani. Obviously, it doesn't have the the quite the camp of uh the Kato Mara Rani.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Well, I don't think anything does. Not if I'm honest. But I do I do think that this felt like the Rani that kind of I think the what makes the Rani is the is the cold scientific approach to things, willingness to experiment on things without any kind of but then also she gets frightened when things are gonna go wrong. Yeah. I like the Rani. I I don't like the Rani in RT Do 2. That could be anybody, but um I I think it's well written. The backstory was quite good. They put some some quite good backstory with the Rani here.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Yeah. I just think this is one of those ones where again, I'm struggling with the format a lot, I think, here, because this could have quite easily not been a box set and been a four-parter. Well, I think we're identifying a theme here. Yeah. It's like you've kind of got to identify what the story is and what the best format to sell it is, rather than going, oh, I need to do four CDs in this box set. Yeah. With these characters. Because as you said, there's nothing again, there's nothing wrong with the story that's being told. It's quite interesting. Is it my sort of doctor? Not really. But it's not a bad story. I don't think McCast are giving bad performances as much as I bash a little bit with this version of the War Doctor, but he's not a bad actor.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

No, he's not a bad actor, but it's just a shame that he's having to do this through this filter of putting on this growl. Because I actually noticed that as you go through the box set, it gets worse. Yeah. In the first story, it's kind of acceptable. And then in the second story, he's growling in the first few sets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Is this a good sequel to Time and the Rani?

SPEAKER_00 40:00

I personally don't think follow Time and the Rani. The greatest beast as a television ever made. And you should leave it at that.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah, I think so. It's this weird thing of like time and the Rani is such a unique moment in the show's history, but I think it's a unique moment in all television. It's true. And it delivers this silly camp bit of tele. I don't want the serious version of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

No, and I think the Rani works really well in it because and then John Mason Turner identified just how camp she was. Yeah. And thought, let's dial that up to 11 with our new makeover for show. And it, you know, let's make the sky pink.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah. Again, this experiment has taught me nothing. It's that I will never jump into the time war sets again. Like, and it's such an alluring concept. And when Big Finish first announced they were doing time war, I was like, this is gonna be fucking brilliant. Yeah, I'm gonna listen to everyone. And here I am, 10 years after the fact, going fucking.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

They have been doing they've been doing the War Doctor for 10 years and they might even be 11 years, and it's kind of that he's still in the time that's going on. Yeah. I'm not sure I care. That's the problem. Yeah. I think.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I just think, as we said earlier, it's better as a mythology with occasional dips in, not 40 fucking box hits.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

But I think when it turns up in rows, I quite like the idea that you have something that's happened, you never know. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. You know, there's a time war has happened and you never know what's gone on.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah. But ultimately we do find out. They do a bit on tele, you get a bit in the end of time, and then you get Day of the Doctor, and it's all been a bit of a ruse and what have you like that. But yeah. Anything else on uh Fear of the Light? Good ideas. Lost in too much box set. Yes, too much box set, too much big finishery.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Big finishery and big when will it finish? We love stories and we hate Harry.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

A few days later, on the 21st of May, we get Rutans vs. Santaran's 1.2 rendition, featuring the second Doctor, Trustabour, Janie, Zoe, and also featuring the Eighth Doctor, written by Tim Foley, directed by Ken Bentley, produced by David Richardson. Now, what's not clear is why all those people did those things. This was a difficult one for me. I'm all for giving pensioners jobs, because I don't think they should enjoy their retirement. No, I I, you know, like aging giving aging actors work, you know, it's not always an easy thing. And I really enjoy, say, Tim Trelaw's recaster, Doctor. That's a recasting that really works for me.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I think we will forever beg to be for that.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Fair. But that's fine. We're friends. Michael Troughton's second doctor is hideous.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

So I'll be honest, I was really shocked when he started talking. I was actually shocked. I didn't find it funny or or I was I was genuinely quite shocked by it. I thought it was it was like a bad impression. Yeah. Which is odd because it's his father, and I get that he's he does actually say in the in the in the uh in the behind the scenes afterwards that he's not trying to do an oppression, he's trying to bring his own thing to the second doctor. But it sounds like if I try and do Patriot Tratt, it's just going to be all of the sort of the beats of his You're just gonna be going, oh my gilly aunt and Yeah, I'm not used to read Fast Doctors. I I I uh I don't like any recasting really, and not because I'm sort of in ch into sort of tradition and continuity. I just don't don't just don't do it. There's enough people that are alive in from Fatto stories about those people. But I mean, this is for me, this is a real soup of sort of content. Mm. The roots and voices of Fightwood. That's all. That's the only thing I liked about this, really. Yeah. Some of the some of the sound design is is okay. There's a lot where they're definitely not in the same room. Yeah. Or if they are in the same room, they've managed to achieve an effect where they sound like they're not. Which I don't know what setting that is. You know, there's a silly bit where Zoe is asking the doctor, who are the Sontarans and who are the Rutans. Everyone who's listened to this knows. So what what what is this?

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yeah, this one felt like a four-hour box set. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

It's a it's again, it's a 50-minter, but it's a 50-minter, but you can pack so much energy and fun and structure into 50 minutes. And I just think I mean there is a good idea in here about trying to find the poetry and literature and express yourself. Yeah. Tim Foley's come up with this quite a nice idea there. And Tim Foley's a good writer. Of course he is. But then it's kind of again like has happened in other sets that we've listened to. You've got a nice idea, but then it's just lost in this kind of whatever this is. I mean, what is this?

SPEAKER_01 45:08

It's we've got to we've got to fill a slot, we've got to put a thing out, we've got to tell a story, we're gonna do this sort of ongoing series about Rutans and Santarums, and we need to get as many doctors in into it. The months before his release starred the sixth doctor, I think, and people were saying how amazing it was.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

So I've got obviously, you know, tremendous respect for Wendy Patbury and Fraser Hines, they're iconic actors from the 60s. I love their original characters. This sounded to me like they were on stage at a convention telling an anecdote. Telling an anecdote, and then somebody has been brought out of the crowd to play the second doctor, which is I mean, how they've managed to do that, because this is Michael Troughton, you know, he is an actor. A good actor. He's a good actor, and he's been in theatre, he's done some serious stuff, and he can he can act. And I just don't know. I'm not quite sure what's happened here. Well, I mean, what's happened is Rutan's versus Sontaran's rendition.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

That's what Why is the AIDS Doctor here?

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Okay, fuck knows. So the AIDS Doctor comes in, they don't have a moment where Zoe rev realizes that it's the doctor. Yeah. He doesn't seem to recognise Zoe. Yeah. But I've got no interest in finding out why. And this is what happened to me with with the monk one is that when the story brings in something where you're meant to be intrigued and you're meant to want to follow it up and listen to some more to see where it goes, by the time it gets to that, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed by this boss at this, does it? No. I'm annoyed by this singular C D I'm annoyed by this play so much that don't bring the eighth doctor in and don't bring in a story about war and nurses, serious concepts like looking after the injured from the wall. Yeah. And individuals who've been lost in the army trying to find expression through poetry. Really quite nice ideas. Don't bring it in after there's been a little joke about a blob of custard on the end of the doctor's nose. Which in the 60s would have been cute and funny and we would have all enjoyed it. Yeah. But when it's two elderly actors and the son of the actor they used to work with doing it on audio, they have to tell you he's got a bit of custard on the end of his nose. It's just it just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

I'm thinking back now to the companion chronicles range, which was how they used to do the eras of Doctor Who where the forecast wasn't available to the stuff and that some good stuff. Last year on the pod, I did a run of First Doctor stories. And they're a mix of narrated with you know some dramatic elements. And I just remember this trilogy of First Doctor stories being so moving and so tense and so interesting, and it brought back the Vardans and made them threatening. And I was like, God, that feels almost like it's so evocative in terms of what it manages to achieve. And now fast forward 20 odd years, and it's this.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Why is this sometimes in the routines? It could be anyone. Yeah. It's just it's you know, Doctor Who in the Ring modulator, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah. And we've got to give, you know, we've got to represent all eras. So this did we need to wheel out Wendy Padbury and Fraser Hines again this month. The eighth Doctor Cameo bothered me on a number of levels. A because it felt quite pointless. I'm sure it's part of a bigger arc in these Rutans versus Santarin stories. But again, they managed to put you off pursuing the and he's on the cover, so it makes it look like it's gonna be more of a multi-ductor story than it is. So instantly you're going in expecting one thing and getting another. But the big finish of yesteryear would have kept that cameo as a surprise because it is a cameo, it's like one scene, right? If you keep it as a surprise, it's a nice little bonus thing, but I have to put it on the cover because that's what's gonna get people in. I was waiting for him to arrive. Yeah if I'm on it.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Just lift the fucking story. I think if you're going to news for lovely Wendy Padbury and the iconic Fraser Heinz, revisit them as elderly versions of their characters.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

And there are trilogies and their stories and things like that where they do, and it works. It genuinely works. I'd prefer a better story, but also I'd prefer this to be an audiobook, an enhanced audiobook, a companion chronicle, where it's the two of them telling the story and occasionally trying to slip back into character.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

But again, Tim Foley's have these good ideas, and they're just lost in this sort of silly, sort of 60s-esque sort of dialogue, trying to get the feel of those characters as they were in the 60s, but they're just, you know, they're all 80.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

They're all 80, but it's trying to tell a slightly more. There's a cute, oh, there's a bit of costume in a name, oh dear me. But they're also trying to tell like a more modern sci-fi story. Which doesn't suit those characters. Which doesn't suit. So it's all it's just a hodgepodge like nobody's gone tonally. What should this be? Should it be a 60? Because there is a version of this that is a 60 sci-fi story that's a bit, you know, a bit more pulpy.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

But then the works. You do this the the sound design to to to go with that, the the dialogue, the kind of story you're gonna tell, and you know, even down to the kind of artwork you're gonna put on it. Yeah. Whereas this as I think just more there's been I think there's been no discussion about the tone of this at all. Yeah. And they're just relying on these are seasoned actors who are to turn up and play it well. Absolutely. I'm afraid for me, Fraser Hines really does sound like it's the first time he's seen these lines as well. I mean, it probably is. Yeah. I I I you know, who am I to to consult Fraser Hines' acting, but yeah, I can't act. But he does sound to me like he's reading them for the first time and thinking, oh, well, this is the bit where I laugh with Zoe about.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Yeah, I it's true though, because uh obviously if the if people want to pay him to do it, and this is how what he wants to do in his retirement, I'm not gonna judge, you know. But we're back to that thing of torturing pensioners again. It's just like it's not a dignified out for this character and this, you know, I'm assuming that Fraser Hines isn't gonna live forever. But like, I want to remember Jamie as he was in the 60s, but also the companion chronicles, and there's and there's a trilogy with older Jamie and things like that. And it's like, that's when I want to I want to revisit those characters.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

You know, those are things I'm interested in seeking those out. Yeah. I would like to hear Fraser Hines playing older Jamie. I'm I'm interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

I mean, you'll have to see what you think, but there's a trilogy that it's one of my favourite runs with big finish stories, and it's the sixth doctor meets older Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

See, and and you know, this kind of era jumping thing where they mix characters up. At its best, there's a reason for it, and it works well. And of course, the sixth doctor's already met Jamie before, so you've got a relationship. They've got a relationship, you've seen the knock screen, yeah. But this kind of soup of putting 1960s characters played by people in their 80s, meeting 1970s aliens, yeah, and also the doctor from the nineties comes in as well. And then tonally, you're in sort of I think tonally big finishes about sort of 2005 usually for me. Yeah. In terms of just where the audio's for me stopped developing.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

It's a messy, messy thing. And this is I'm just not impressed with this on any level, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

I think also, just from a storytelling point of view, some of the dark stuff in it about war and injury and and you know the poetic stuff about literature and expression, it comes out of nowhere for me in this story. And it's it kind of it loses so much by being up against all this kind of bouncy.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Don't shock me with a change of tone like that.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

No, underdeveloped, messy, the all the cliches of the big finish soup, as you say, the big finish fruit machine, you know, pull the lever down, who spun around, it's the 60s companion, 70s monster, 90s doctor. Amazing. And Michael Troughton, this this recasting does not work.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

I was shocked in a minute. Yes. I was actually, you know, I I didn't find it funny. I was I was genuinely shocked by how bad it was.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

This is only the second time I've heard him do it because I heard when he was announced, I was like, oh, I'll give it a go to see what it's like. But I I only lasted 20 minutes on that one.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah. Well, we know how I feel about recasts, but this one, no. A la poubelle.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Anything else we'd like to say?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Okay. Well, we've got to the end of May. Are we to the 27th of May for a Torchwood release called Farewell? Written by Joseph Lidster, directed by Scott Hancock, produced by James Goss, starring Gareth David Lloyd as Yanto Jones. You're a Torchwood fan? Yep. Are you? How did you feel about this Torchwood audio?

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Um for me, in the world of Big Finish, Torchwood is kind of in a different league in terms of the quality. And this to me is well written, well, well made. It's it's I loved it. Yeah. If I'm honest. I can't really fault this. It felt mature, it felt like it was written by somebody who knows how to write a play, which obviously Joe Lidster is a is a playwright, and he's got away with dialogue, and it was paced well, the performances are great. The music, Blair Murray's music. Yeah. I I l as as soon as it started, I knew I was in for something ahead of I think anything else that we've listened to this month.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Absolutely. I've not heard loads of the Torchwood range, but the ones I have heard have almost universally all been brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

And it yeah, and it makes me want to listen to all of them. Yeah. Because every time so I I don't listen to a lot of big finish, which is why I'm the ideal candidate for this. Well, no, exactly. And it makes me want to listen to a lot more because whenever I've dipped into Torchwood, the Lincolnshire poacher, Coffee. Right. You know, I've not heard coffee. Coffee's great. Right. I think it's by James Goss.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Who is great?

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Yeah. It's just it's brilliant. And Yanto Jones is is a fantastic lead. Yeah. And I just think this feels feels feels far ahead of everything else. It feels like a different thing completely.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Yeah, and it's bizarre, isn't it? That Torchwood, I mean, this is the final Torchwood main range release, monthly release. And they've been going, they've had a good innings for a show that was on television coming up to 20 years ago now.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

And I'm sad that I'm not listening to this at the end of having listened to all of it. Yeah. Because then obviously it loses some of its impact. It felt to me like listening to Big Finish, how Big Finish used to feel for me. Yeah. Whereas I feel I could put this on in the car with anybody and then say, yeah, this is excellent audio drum that you listen to. Yeah. It's it's the top-end sound design, very good script, proper direction, proper performances. And my particular flavor of Nerd is Doctor Who music, as you know. Yeah. And the music in this Flair Moa absolutely knocks it out of the park. There's a bit right at the end after the last bit of dialogue before the theme tune comes in. Yeah. That I I literally hit rewind. And I said, I want to hear that again. That's gorgeous. Yeah. I have to hear that again.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

It's such a human story. Like it's just well-written characters. It's ca it's a character we know. The other characters in it apparently do appear in other Torchwood audios, but you don't need to know that.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

It doesn't matter. Yeah. And you kind of know that so I don't know the big finish torchwood big arts. No, me neither. But from this I've picked up WhatsApp. Yeah. And it doesn't make me shrug. It makes me think, oh, I'd actually quite like to hit. Yeah. And Joe Livster's details that he puts in. I've I've remembered a couple of things. Like there's a line where Tommy says, uh that's not from dark web, that's from BQ. There's little details like Miss Hey Ho. Yeah. And the fact that the the fluid inside the cyberman smells like baby food. Yeah. It's just writing like that really makes you feel like you're listening to something where someone's really thought about making a really good piece of And little things of like the guide being a recovering alcoholic.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

It's not overstated, but it's like it just adds more textures and more human layers, and you're like, what a brilliant human story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Absolutely. And but also told, not sort of made corny because it's a big finish audio. It's treated properly and it's treated respectfully. Yeah. Also, this is the way to time jump in the story. Yeah. Because you could immediately tell that it'd gone back. I mean, he doesn't now because he says. And I don't think he does it every time. No, it does. It just works. And I would listen to this again. I think this is absolutely what and I thought, I actually thought this was 30 minutes. And then I looked it up and it's 80. Is it really? It's 80 minutes. Maybe that includes flu bar. That might include. Is there no, there isn't a behind the scenes thing.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

I don't think there was. Oh, I can't remember. No, there m it there must be 15 minutes of extras. I'm sure there is. I don't think there was.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

But it's j I just, you know, like like the Lincolnshire Poacher, like Coffee, you know, these it's virtually a two-hander. Yeah. These are a two-hander. No, this could at four, isn't it? But I think completely different league. Really, really enjoyed this. And it's it's made me think that there are 98 other, 99 other Torchwood audios in the Soho range.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yeah. I want to hear that. Yeah. Like people again, people rave about it, and the audio range seems to do Torchwood better than the TV series did. Because I like Torchwood the TV series, but it had its ups and downs. I get why it's coming to an end. You know, that a lot of the actors, for whatever reason, are not doing it anymore, and you can't just do a series about Yanto and Tosh. They handle the absence of those other characters very well. Very nicely. You know, he has a conversation with Jack on the phone, but you obviously don't hear Jack. Reese's got cameo in it, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Very small. Yeah. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't take anything away from it.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Exactly. It just felt really it's just so lovely. It's such good drama. I know. I've got one niggle with us. Go on. It lies to you. The front cover is Yanto as a Cyberman.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

I was actually pleased that it lied to me, to be honest, because the front I didn't want Yanto to be turned into a Cyberman. Me too. I didn't want that for for him or the story.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

No, exactly. I was worried it was going to be like, and we've resurrected Yanto and he's a Cyberman, which would have been theme-wise in terms of what happened with his girlfriend, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

That kind of would have worked. But also, no, I don't need that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

But they they really deal with this idea of the fallout of being in torture and what it does to your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

And especially no, as we know what happens to Yanto. Yeah. The idea that when he does reach his moment of death in Children of Earth, that he might have been thinking, oh, maybe it was life outside of this, makes his death even more heartbreaking. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

Really good stuff. I mean, imagine you'd have to listen to 13 hours of Big Finish a month.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

But the thing is, I guess their ratio hasn't changed because it felt like in that may that first 50 or whatever, they were putting out a banger a month.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

And maybe they're still putting out a banger a month as she does everything else around it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

I think they might be because there's a I mean, there is a type of Doctor Who fan who is putting up their hands at a convention and saying, I noticed that series four of this is only a download. I've been collecting the CDs, and you know that they've got a room full of big finish. Yeah. And looking around at your room full of lots of fascinating things and beautiful film posters and lovely things. There's there are people who will have a room full of just CDs. This one with the monks, for example, that people are finding that on CDs.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

They are. Hello to Mark Rawlins and Joe Ford, if you're listening. I know and they uh their lounge has got a whole big finish set of shelves.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

And I'm sure it's hasteful in the extreme. But I think there's a certain type of fan who this is going to please, and it's a completist. It's it's somebody who, when you bring out a time war audio, they want five hours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

I don't think Doctor Who's ever really warranted being five hours, except for Flux and Dalek's Master Plan. It's like every now and then you can warrant it. But in general, there aren't loads of five-hour Doctor Who stories that are great because you could only do it occasionally and you have to have a big story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

I think also part of my problem with audio drama is that I will focus on what I'm listening to. I won't listen to Big Finish while doing some work and just have it on the background. Right. So for this, you know, when I'm listening to, when I've been listening to this, I am only listening to this. And and so for me, it has to be, you know, it has to, I have to be able to immerse myself completely in it. So the sound design is hugely important to me. And it's really up and down throughout this.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

It is, it's interesting, right? You kind of think that the sound design always hits a level, but it just doesn't. It really doesn't. And it's not, it never reaches the the worst parts of BBV sound design. It never sounds like the archers, which I think. Yeah, it doesn't, it never, it's always of a high standard. But during this month of releases really made me go, oh, it's not always of the highest standard, but no, I think there are some genuine policy control issues.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

But I think at this volume, as in, you know, the amount of stuff, how can you keep that consistent? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

At the end of it all, how do we feel about this month's worth of Doctor Who? Was it a worthwhile journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Overall, I enjoyed it hugely. And it was uh I've always won I've always wondered what it would be like to do this. Yeah. Because it is a cliche to say there's too much big fetish. You see all these endless covers come out every day of all of these things. But I mean, my main sort of conclusion is I was like, there's way too much of it. Yeah. I don't think you're meant to listen to it all.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

No, I mean that that is the main thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

If you had Nick Briggs here, he would probably say, Well, of course I'm not expecting to listen to 13 hours of big finishing months. He'd probably say, Well, why are you doing this? You know, if you listen to the monk, you're still listening to the monk. If you're a tortured fan, you're just going to listen to Tortured. I am a tortured fan and I'm going to. Some of these ranges have been going on too long.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Yeah, I think, and I think with the Tortured one, they've gone, let's end it now while we're still in control of it. I think there's bits of classics duck to who that probably need resting. I think the Time War is just done as a concept.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

Yeah, I mean, I think the trouble is you can't just put out something because it's set us, because I think creatively will suffer. I think at its best, Big Finish is the some of the best sounding, in fact, probably the best sounding audio drama I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

I've never heard an audio drama where I thought Big Finish couldn't do this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

Absolutely. And what's interesting is as I listen to audio dramas from other companies for the other version of off TV. Yes. There's some good stuff out there. Yeah. But in terms of s the quality of the production, the sound design, they quite often don't hit the same levels as Big Finish. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

The pinnacle of that for me is that is is tortured with fairwell. Yeah. It sounds absolutely incredible. And I'm listening to it on proper equipment. And it sounds it's it's flawless. So well done.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

I tend to listen to big finishes in three ways. One, lying in bed. Yeah. Two, in the gin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Or three while out for a walk. So I think in the gin, you know, something like this time war one, you can just let it run. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

But then But Torch would fare well, I wouldn't have wanted to listen to it in the you'd want to stop and listen to it at Park. And I have done that before when I've been like, oh, this is actually too good to just have on as a piece of entertainment.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

So then the stuff that's not good enough to stop and listen to, I don't think should be made. But then it's selling, people are enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

I want to hit you with a couple of uh big finish cliches that fans talk about, and you can tell me whether they're true or not. Yeah. It's just a mishmash of characters.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

Some of it is, a lot of it isn't. I think it would be unfair to say that when there's such good stuff in this month of, you know, you can't say that about the tortured one. You can't say that's about the 13th Doctor one. Yeah. I y you can't, to be fair, say that about the um for war doctor and the run you are, because you can. You can, you can. And you can say about the routine one, I think. Too many Daleks. Way too many Daleks. I'm I'm not cliche, but true. I I'm not really massively to Dalit. I like a Dalek, but I like a Dalek. I've only got one at home. I know somebody who's got more than many more than you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

You're just looking at my millennium Daleks. I only get a dapple Dalek, you know, I I covet. Next cliche, they're just churning it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

I think they genuinely believe in what they're doing, and I think they're working hard to produce good stuff. But I think there's absolutely these these answers are too diplomatic. That's true. They are churning it out, and occasionally there's a diamond in the breath.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

Yeah. Too many stories by Nick Briggs. Have we had any this one? We've not had anything directed by him, written by him, or produced by him. Still in it. He's an exec. He is, but he is the voice of the Daleks. And the Regents. But again. Is he the voice of the Regents? Probably not. He's the monster voice guy. But the cliche of there being too much Nick Briggs, I don't think really holds up. He has been very hands-off on all of these releases, except for when he's saying it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

He worked in theatre and you know he's he's a guy who can do the stuff he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yeah, it's just he took a full-time job at Big Finish at some point and he's still got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

And a company like Big Finish has to use somebody who's got a full-time job to the fullest capacity.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Exactly. I think you probably answered this, but would you explore more of any of these ranges? Torch-Rood, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

I would absolutely explore more torture than I'm going to I'm also going to listen to the rest of the 13th Doctor Range as and when we come out.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Does a show like Doctor Who warrant this amount of audio releases? Yes. Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Because people want them? Yeah. No. Because Doctor Who is, I think, probably the richest story universe that there is. And I think Doctor Who is unique in that there are so many different things you can do. There are so many different styles you can try. What other property would give you Torchwood? But then the the you know audios of Torchwood. And then for the finale of that hundred I think there have been a hundred. Yeah. For it to be for it to be sucked. So good and so meaningful. I think honestly, Doctor Who is the only thing that can produce, you know. I mean, we are sitting in your room of expanded media, and all of this is justifying all of it. I I I stand behind any of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

No, ultimately, as you say, people want to buy it, and there'll be somebody out there who loves those war doctor releases and with more power to them.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

There'll be somebody who's been listening to every single time we release and buys them all on CD and is, you know, can't wait to see what that says. And, you know, big finisher making that for that person. It might only be one person. Sure ain't me. But that doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

It depends on what sort of Doctor Who you like. I mean, for me, Torchwood and the 13th Doctor ones were the standouts. And I think that's good enough for me. Like the fact there were two releases this month that I would and will and have listened to more of is a really great thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

It is. So I said at the beginning I wasn't into trash beef finish. And I I I I don't think have.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

No, I think this is very fair. I went in with an open mind. And it's all down to our own taste. Again, there's probably people out there that love Michael Trout and Second Doctor. I do not. So we're gonna pick two releases now, a banger and a clanger. Okay. For me, the the banger's easy, it was Torchwood. It's yeah, it represents the very best of what Big Finish does. And it it's up there with things like spare parts as like a standout classic for Myth.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

I'm absolutely behind you there. And I I agree with you. I think when Big Finish is great, it's really, really great. And I'm so happy that we got to hear an example of it being that good. Yeah. It's sheered me at no end. Excellent. What about a clanger?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

What is the worst of this?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

It's got to be the regions thing. But Sontarans Regions, it's just I I don't know why somebody has thought that this is a good way of handling the story of the Sontarans and the Regions. And it's doing that big finish thing of taking something which was just a little bit of backstory, a little bit of colour to put in to the background of these aliens in the 70s, and then you you know you have a root and appears once, and it's just a blob, and it's a dialogue voice, and it's it's fine. You don't need to make boxes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

That was a low point for me, but I think it's the Wall Doctor box out for me. I just didn't vibe of it. Is there room in the uh is there room in the bin also for the monk? There is room in your bin. I'm on the fence, I'm intrigued by that. But you can you can put the monk in the bin. Are you intrigued by that and it's a morbid fascination? No, I d I like I thought I I want to s I kind of want to know where the story goes. Well, you can let me know. I will I will. I will. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you. And for talking about Big Finish and for consuming, what was it, how many hours?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

13 hours and 41 minutes. The shortest thing we listened to was Aegis, which was at one hour 14 minutes. The longest thing was Time War, Uncharted Three, Branches, Sonny McGann, which was four hours and fifty-six minutes. Dear God. I almost was expecting them to say, I'll give you four minutes back. Give me five hours, man. Well, is that like a fifth of a day, basic point? So my approach to deadlines is uh I certainly end loaded this. The prep for this has certainly a lot of this has been done in the last certainly in the last two days.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Yeah, so I spread it out a bit more, but I d I we still got the same opinions, I think, pretty much, apart from the monk one, which is the divider here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

Um you can't listen to it in a in a hurry, and I didn't, and I listened to all of it properly. None of it was going in the background while I did something else. I've you know, I've just completed the big project at work, so I did have the downtime to give these the attent the proper attention. Yeah. And they've all had the same attention. So there's not a circumstantial thing creeping in. Yeah. Divider here is the monks. I think it ain't it ain't easy being cheesy.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

Can people find you on the internet? Is there anything there that you want to plug or anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:14

I was asked this on another podcast and I gave them my private Instagram. And now you're being followed by weirdos. I've been followed by I've been requested to follow by two people who have Doctor Who sort of names. Oh. Well, then you you don't need to promote anything at all. I have nothing to promote other than no, I have nothing to promote.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

But thank you. Well, no, thank you. Next time, I'm going to be joined by Mark Donaldson and Mikey Smith. And we're gonna it's only a little like a mini episode, but we're gonna have a quick look at the Doctor's 30 years of time travel and beyond the documentary from BBV. Oh, I can't wait to hear that. But until then, I've been Dylan. I've been Harry, and this has been Doctor Who Too Hot for TV.