Daphne Martschenko, Ph.D: First Person of Color to Row The Boat Race

#004 -  Daphne Martschenko is a London-born American rower, who holds the title of being the first person of color to compete in The Boat Race since its inception in 1856. Not only does she hold the title of being a Stanford University rowing alumna, but she also holds a Ph.D in Education from the University of Cambridge. Currently, She resides in Chicago where her work is focused on how teacher perceptions of students are influenced by the public facing materials about behavioral genetics. Through the lens of diversity in rowing, we briefly discuss the potential idea: how a coach’s perceptions of athletic ability might relate to athlete’s performance. Hosts, Denise and Patricia, talk to Daphne about her 12-year career in rowing as well as the advice she has for younger rowers of color. Hit subscribe and enjoy!

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
Not only is this the first time the women are racing on the same course is the men, and we're in the 21st century, and no one seemed to think that we could do it until now. But also now I'm the first person of color to do this race. That just seemed 1000 goals to me, but also so honored that I could be the person to take on that title

spk_1:   0:23
I didn't need. Patricia Way here were virtual nice. Oh, wow. These are different currents from before The thinker in, like, four sets keep it warm winter season. In any case, we did get time with our next guest. And when you give us a little bit of info about her, yeah. Next stocking for Jenko, Ford in London and raised in Virginia, moving to the UK at Cambridge. Yeah, and then work on her PhD education. She's now based in Chicago, without further ado way Have Daphne.

spk_2:   1:09
Hi. How's it going? Good. As well as can be. How are you doing? All right. Patricia and I are based in New York right now, but we're recording in separate locations. But just to say hi. Hey, So it's, unfortunately a weird time in our our pandemic history that time of the century, Um, tell us how you doing this time and what your base and how things are going for you over there.

spk_0:   1:39
Yeah, I'm based out of Chicago, Illinois, uh, live in Hyde Park, so it's a pretty residential feeling area, so there's not a ton of hustle and bustle to begin with, but it definitely feels like a ghost town outside. I'm trying to get out once a day to dio a run or walk of some kind social distancing, of course. Um, but it's it's really weird working from home every day, and I consider myself a home body. But now that I actually can't go outside, I find that I really want to be outside.

spk_1:   2:14
Yeah, I think we all agree with you on that

spk_2:   2:16
one, huh? Are you are any rowing club's open out near you? Is Is anything open?

spk_0:   2:23
No. I mean, all restaurants and bars are closed. All public spaces. Gym's pretty much everything is shut down. I think the only people who are actually going to work are essential personnel for things like law enforcement in the health care system. Um, most places are moving toe work remote. So my office is pretty small there about 12 of us. So every morning at 9 45 we do a video check in just to make sure that everyone is alive and well. But it is weird how much we've narrowed our social circle because Chicago so big, we've isolated to friend couples who are here in Hyde Park rather than, you know, throughout all of Chicago. So it's just weird how you narrow your social circle than how you make decisions about how to narrow it and who to narrow it to. So definitely bizarre time.

spk_2:   3:17
You're speaking about Chicago. So tell us about yourself. Did you grow up in Chicago? Where did you grow up? Where did you start rolling all that fun stuff?

spk_0:   3:26
Yes. So I was actually born in London. My father works for the state's pregnant and he was stationed in Kurdistan. This guy cares hand that capital Kyrgyzstan. The hospital system there. Waas Pretty poor. So him and my mother went over to London to have me. So I was born in the U. K. But grew up in the Washington D. C area for most of my life. I mean, we'd move every couple of years somewhere, mainly Eastern Europe, which is a whole other interesting experience, uh, with in my life. But

spk_1:   4:04
Shorty, Mythological affront. Hello. Sorry. That's all right. So much going on. I'm sorry. No, it's

spk_0:   4:19
not it. I totally get that because So I live with my boyfriend and we're both working from home, and we live in a one bedroom. So when we both have calls going on at the same time, we're trying to figure out how to navigate

spk_2:   4:31
that e Get going back to what you were saying. Do you start rolling in London then?

spk_0:   4:37
No. So, um so my family moved around a lot. As a kid. We always came back to the same area in northern Virginia, but moved to Eastern Europe a lot. So I'm I'm bi racial. My mother's Nigerian. My father is Ukrainian American, and they met in Nigeria. So my mom's first time ever leaving Nigeria was when she moved to Bishkek, Care to stand of all places with my father. I did not start rowing until high school, and I was in northern Virginia at that time and I was the most un athletic person ever. Growing up, my parents would try everything thrown every single sport you could think of acting. I did figure skating, baseball, soccer, basketball, floor hockey, swimming, and I was absolutely terrible at every single one. I hated it. Um, it just wasn't a fun doing sports of being athletic was just not a fun experience for me because I was always bad and, um, about embarrassed about it and didn't really feel like I looked like an athlete or looked like I had the build for a lot of the sports that I was doing, says always hyper aware of myself in those situations. But one thing I was pretty into was theater. So especially in middle school, I was really in the theater, and one day I was with my ex Cedar group and we were headed Thio, a Shakespeare competition of all things in Washington, D. C. And we were crossing the Potomac River and I looked out and I saw Cem boats look like boats out on the water, and I had never seen anything like it, and I asked my friends in the car if any of them knew what it wasn't. One of the girls just so happened to have an older sister who was on her high school rowing team. And so she explained it to me. And for some reason in that moment I decided that that was something that I wanted to try. So when I started high school the next year, I was really fortunate because many public high schools in Northern Virginia have rowing teams and my high school happened to have one. So I decided that I was gonna join the rowing team. And even more crazy, I decided that I was gonna join the cross country team the season before rowing started to try and get in shape for rowing and got to rowing. I mean, I was terrible across country. I was always like, dead last in all the races, but I made really good friends and so I actually for once started to enjoy a sport, even though I was terrible at it. But then I got to rowing and really the first saying that they look for is someone who has cower, and I just happened to have a lot of power. And so I quickly realized that I had found the one in 100 sport one in 1000 1 of 100,000 sport for me that I actually had potential at and could emerge as a leader in, uh and I don't think my parents ever imagined that that would happen, that I would get hooked on on the sport on physical activity and for that to become my life for the next 12 years.

spk_2:   7:43
My gosh. So theater was your springboard? Yeah. No, I don't think we've heard that one yet. That's really That's really great.

spk_1:   7:53
No, I definitely haven't heard any rowers who did theater before rowing. They're usually like I did basketball. I did grow up like I did swimming. So it's It's a nice thing That's a nice twist to your story.

spk_0:   8:05
Yeah, yeah, I definitely went from 0 100 in terms of hating all athletics. Like being terrible. I remember once my dad saying, Okay, you either need to join the neighborhood swim team so that you get physical fitness or you need to do, like, 45 minutes of exercise five days a week. But that is the point where I was just like, you know, I was overweight, I was not healthy. And so it was kind of like ultimatums in terms of trying to get me to be active. And then I finally found something where I could self motivate myself. So that's

spk_1:   8:37
amazing. Do you feel like it also was the team that you stepped onto at that moment that help motivate you? Or do you feel like if you had joined any rowing team, you would still have felt the same connection and rowing?

spk_0:   8:50
I was so lucky to have the most amazing novice coach. His name is Tony Bennett, and he was the perfect combination of being really kind and warm and making you feel like you are really unique contributing member to the team and also pushing you. So the first time I got in a boat, I was terrified. I was afraid of flipping, you know, even though we were in an eight and he really did amazing job of helping me to overcome that fear because he saw the potential that I had. You know, when I was on the ERG, I could clearly put down a lot of power, but it was a pretty think compared to a lot of novice or was I had a harder time overcoming that initial hurdle of being able to figure out how it actually translate that power to growing on the water because I was so afraid of it. And he just did a really great job of helping you to overcome that fear and and to continue on with the sport and feel like I really had found something special. Yeah,

spk_1:   9:47
but I think that really I agree. I think that what's really connected you to your team was that fact that you had that novice coach who was, like, very supportive and pushing you and your other fellow teammates to be the best that you guys could be.

spk_0:   9:59
Yeah, I mean, after I started. So I started rolling in the winter of 2006 and I still keep in touch with my not s coach. Like we still exchange emails. Never in home in northern Virginia. I will try and see him. So you know, it's been over a decade since I started growing, and he still continues to be an important person in my life.

spk_2:   10:19
Shout out to the novice coaches out there,

spk_1:   10:22
right? Yeah, I think I like my novice coaches more than luck. My mercy coaches.

spk_0:   10:29
Yeah, I totally see that.

spk_2:   10:31
So when I hear you saying, what I hear everyone say is that novice year, it's such a formative year. And that first step, that first impression into rowing, really kind of sense of the stage for who knows could be a 48 in this case, a 12 12 year career and growing. And I guess, Stephanie, given your I don't want to unwanted, say, unique background because now all of a sudden I can. I can think of young people who had music, background and wanted again and run a dancing background who had a theater background one and get wanted to get into rowing and some struggled and some didn't. What advice would you give to young people, especially young people of color who are interested in rowing or in those early formative years there, novice, your middle school years? I think the

spk_0:   11:17
biggest thing is just knowing that there are other people like them who have done this sport. I think one thing that was hard for me waas I mean going up because my family spent a lot of time living in Eastern Europe and also living in northern Virginia. I just was always surrounded by people who didn't look like me. And that always made me hyper aware of the fact that I was the only person of color in a given space, especially in a sport like growing right. I would go to in high school, race like stoats, very regatta. And I remember shriek a who. I know that you guys spoke Thio. I saw her and immediately was like That is someone that I can't wait to. We are both in positions that are kind of uncommon within this sport, and it was just such a blessing that she both ended up at Stanford with me as well. But, you know, you just learned to identify people who look like you, her and that's supporting like I want to know who is that person. I want to get to know them. I want to know what their experiences are like. So, you know, I would just say that I think the rowing community of color has really built, um, built a community where it's OK to do that where it's totally acceptable to go up to someone and be like, Hey, you know who are you told me a little bit about yourself, and I feel like so many of the connections that I formed with people of color who are in rowing. It's do that, you know, some of them I've never met before in my life. But we still get to talk with each other about what it's like and learn about learned from each other. So I just really encouraged that, you know, putting yourself out there and reaching out to people. Um, and I think the other thing is recognizing that when you do feel uncomfortable or when you feel hyper visible, that that is okay, right? Other people have felt that as well. And that should not discourage you from continue on in the sport, because from my perspective, it's given me so much. No, someone asked me the question a couple weeks ago. What has been the biggest plot twist in your life thus far? If it worked a movie and rolling has been my plot twist, right because I was so un athletic, but also because of all the doors that rowing has opened to me since I started, so I would just really encourage people toe keep keeping on even when things difficult or they don't feel like there's a space for them. Um, because there is a space for them.

spk_1:   13:38
I mean, I think that's one of the most important advice people of color Young, old, who joined, narrowing, should be like should be receiving like it's okay to feel uncomfortable. But that's when you should step out. If you see someone who looks like us and be like, Hey, tell me how you felt comfortable in the space or how, like just like list of Connect, let's just like, you know, find let's build our community with each other, um, starting with each other. So I think that's definitely something more people should be doing. I think a lot of times are scared to do that simply because it was like what I'm so used to being with people who don't look like me. Am I going? Um, I going to make this person feel uncomfortable by me stepping into there's asking that question. Hey, how do you feel being that person that's different on your team because I'm that way already? So I think your vice is very important for people to start taking in. Um, it's okay, like everyone is uncomfortable. But the only way to get comfortable is to be uncomfortable,

spk_0:   14:40
right? Yeah. And it takes time, right? I wasn't immediately as a novice or in high school even willing to go talk to people and point out the fact that kay I'm a person of color. You're a person of color. We're both in this space where we're not one of the few people of color here. Let's connect. I think, actually, one person who really helped you at that was our shake Cooper, Uh, because he was someone who reached out to me well when he read an article about me. And then from that point on, I started making connections for me. So he really has been kind of a role model for me to show me that that is, it's OK to be uncomfortable, and it's even more okay to reach out to people and make connections.

spk_2:   15:23
There's so much death. There's so much untapped value in those connections that it just there's there's just a lot of strength and diversity that we just haven't tapped into. You I feel like it's awkward for Asian Americans to be like Let's talk. That doesn't happen as much. Does that have been Mawr in the black community of rowing? I think

spk_0:   15:43
it does. I mean, maybe I'm just fortunate because people like our Shay and David Banks entry ca came into my life fortuitously and helped me feel like there's a community and have really expanded my horizons. So I think I've been very lucky in that regard. But I do get the sense that more generally, the black community is more open to having those direct conversations with each other

spk_2:   16:14
going, going back, thio going back to your experience in your background. So you did mention I'm shriek David Banks and our Shea. What a lineup of folks thio or told fortuitous speaking. Just walk right into your rowing career in life. Um, how would you say your paths differ like do you find your experience is different or the same? Speak to that. That's a

spk_0:   16:38
difficult question. I think she, Erica and I had a lot of overlap from the fact that we both started at Stanford together and rode all four years there together. So you know, Those four years were very similar, of course. Afterwards I went over to the UK and continue drawing there and shrink. I was training for the Olympics, so those are quite different. I was again in a team setting and she was training in the single so very much and individual capacity. Um, I think with David, he also went to Stanford. He graduated before I had started, so I kind of only knew him as this legend who had come through Stanford before me. And, you know, I could relate to because he was a person of color who I grew up in the D c. Maryland Virginia area, just like I did who had gone to Stanford in row, just like I was doing, Um, who had us team aspirations like I did, you know, he'd rowed in the Olympics. So, uh, he was definitely someone that I aspired to be, like, who is further along the journey than I was. And then I think our Shay has just been so inspiring to me, in part because he is doing so much to bring rowing to communities that he grew up Flynn. And, you know, I think a lot of us stop rowing, and then that's it. Like we put down the r and we walk away from the sport, and he really has invested his entire life into making it inaccessible sport into kind of breaking down a lot of the barriers. Um, that make growing appear to be the elitist white sport that in many cases it really is. So, um, yeah, I'm just so grateful that all three of those people are people that I can just text up any time and talk to

spk_2:   18:43
my gosh. Maybe we should start a zoom with all of them that that'll be our next episode. Okay, you mentioned growing internationally. Did you notice? Well, what differences did you notice? Rowing here versus rowing across the pond?

spk_0:   19:01
That's a great question. I mean, there were many differences from, like, a training standpoint. So, for example, at Stanford, we were all about doing really high volume a lot of er gay. Ah, lot of consistent testing on the ERG toa kind of rank us every week. Cambridge was unlike anything else I'd experience because it was so technique focused. And the British style of Rohan was very different to what I had at Stanford. So, you know, I had come from the mentality. If you just, like, pull if you just pull as hard as you can, then you can make something move. And yes, you do need some technique. Yes, eggs don't float. But going crazy and just put, you know, being super aggressive, really committed to putting yourself into the pain zone like that is what is going to define a winner from the loser. Cambridge was just so focused on technique and the feel of the boat, and those are things I hadn't really thought about too much before. So it was a struggle for me at first because I was like, Well, I'm strong, like that should be good enough. It was more of a conversation of, you know, there are a lot of technical things that you need to work on, that you need to improve that Obviously you're strong and it's worked for you this far, and you will continue to be successful. But you could be even more successful if you, you know, work on these technical changes. And I think, you know, as a person of color what was so interesting thing? to me is that many of my teammates at Cambridge would say, You know, if I were to point out that no, I'm the only person of color in this room They would always say, All right, like I hadn't even noticed right? Like the conversation there in the UK was more that class based differences are more defining than race based differences. And people will be able to tell someone social status from the way that they talk or the way that they dress or where they went to school. And that is much more the first thing that they see in someone, then the color of their skin. I don't know if that's true. I I would say that I I personally don't think that's true. But that is the narrative that class based differences are far superior to race based differences in that. That's what people see more than they see race based differences and, you know, right before. So I went to Cambridge in the fall of 2014 and 2015 was the first women's boat race on the tide way, so the first time that the women were going to compete on the same course on the same day as the men. Historically, the women had done a 2.2 kilometer race in Henley, which is, you know, kind of a straight straight course more similar to the United States. The men's boat race waas race on the tide way. So that's a title body of water that has stream Ben's. It's over six kilometers long, very, very different race, and the narrative had always been that women are not strong enough. They don't have the stamina or the endurance to be able to do this race. So it wasn't into until 2015 that finally people saw the light and realize that the women were justice capable is and then of racing on the same course. Asked them So 2015 was a really exciting, really historic wet year from the perspective of gender parity. But I remember maybe three weeks, maybe a month before that race, after it had been announced that I was going to be in the blue boat, so that's the equivalent of what you call the varsity eight in America. I got an email from someone at Cambridge, he said, You know, I'm a I think It was a professor of history or they were in the history department at the University of Cambridge. And they said, You know, I don't know if anyone's told you this, but I just want you to know that you're gonna be the first person of color to compete in the boat race on either men or women side. And this is a race that's over 100 years old, right? And I was going to be the very first person of color to race in that in the boat race. I just remember being so shocked because I had not even considered that that would be a possibility, right? I'd always thought we gotta be at least someone some point in history who's done it. But receiving that news is incredibly humbling and also of disappointing. Honestly, because I felt like not only is this the first time the women are racing on the same course is the men and we're in the 21st century, and no one seemed to think that we could do it until now, but also now I'm the first person of color to do this race. That just seemed UN 1000 a goal to me, but also so honored that I could be the person I take on that title.

spk_2:   23:32
I'm happy we're zooming right now because I'm just speechless. But you can see my eyebrows can't go any higher. If they would, they would just melt into my hairline. I completely agree with you. I think that a I'm I'm even Maur starstruck now speaking Thio, Um, that is very historic. That is very impressive. But it it, on the other hand, it shouldn't be exactly. It shouldn't be that reason. That's five. The five years ago. Well, on one hand, it's it's great that the next generation of rowers will now be like Oh, I could be I could be like Daphne Like now I have that person to look up to. It's on its bittersweet. It's bittersweet, for sure. Patricia thoughts.

spk_1:   24:19
Yeah, well, I have a couple questions from this story, but I'll ask you this one real quickly. Do you? Did you feel like you said you felt very humble? Did you feel like that? Added some refried to more successful at this race because you were not just only going and I was just a woman. The first woman's book, but you're going in as the first woman off color. Do you feel like that? Added more pressure to you to be more to succeed at the accessories.

spk_0:   24:47
Yeah. I mean, I remember I wish I had this email on hand. I wonder if I can find it, but I remember the person saying something along the lines of like, I don't want to put added pressure on you, but, um, but I didn't I didn't feel added pressure. I mean, I have got been in high pressure situations many times before. You know, rowing at the division one level at Stanford was high pressure situation. Rowing on the under 23 national team was a high pressure situation. So when I got that news, I was more humbled than anything like, I don't think I had the conscious thought of. I need toe. I really need to change the way that I'm approaching this. Now that I've received this new piece of information

spk_1:   25:29
my personally, if I had heard that look Oh, my God. Even if I wrote like I'm freaking out because I am that person who needs to carry this torch like, you know, um I need to make this path for all the other young boat women off color or just women in general who need, like, we want to race here. And so I think the way you you you handle it is amazing. Like just just row. It's like another workouts. Another piece. It's another race, um, and not making it. Not making, not building on. Oh, my God, I need to be I need to make this the best race ever because I am a woman of color going into it. I think that's amazing. You were talking about how ah, you A It's more based on class and rather than Reese, would you go? And you can answer this or not? Um, would you prefer the class way of I guess judgement or clarification over our race way of classification. Kind of have the U. S. Is doing it or has done it just know unconsciously. They've been doing it for years. How would you where do you where would you feel more comfortable at a person of color, rowing or

spk_0:   26:45
Mmm, That's a good question. I don't know. I don't think I felt differing levels of comfort in the UK versus the U. S. Because of my race. I think the UK was a whole different experience because there rowing is actually, like, celebrated its sport that almost, you know, most people know what rowing is, which in and of itself is a big deal. And then on top of knowing what rowing is, are excited about it. Um, so it was unusual for me to experience so much like fanfare. And then I don't know if you guys have ever seen the boat races announcement, but you get on a scale with your counterpart from the up, like the opposite seat in Oxford, and they announced your weight and your height out to you the entire room of press and it gets published in the newspaper. So that was all super foreign bizarre for me. Um, so I think I was more caught up in the fact that I I was now in a sport that almost felt like, maybe what? Well, probably not to the same level. But I imagine what it would feel like to be a basketball player in American football player. You know, one of those sports that everyone in America is obsessed with So I noticed that in that that I think took up more of my focus and one of my attention. Then, like differences between how people perceive my race. I would say, though, that in the UK, you know, in the US, everyone sees me, is black, right? They look even though you know I'm bi racial, I would I will identify as black, and that's how size society will identify me. But in the UK, people would first identify me as American because they would hear my accent. So that was refreshing. Sometimes, you know, people the first thing they would say to me Oh, your American like where in America are you from? So I guess that would probably be the biggest difference.

spk_2:   28:38
I never thought about that. Um, never thought of any of that. How the differences of how they do class and race, um, as a side note. When you mentioned that they that they announce your height and weight, it's almost like you're being burst into the rowing society like and now this one. Many you

spk_0:   28:59
cannot see the number that pops up on the scale. You have to wait for the announcer to tell you What numbers showing so everyone else can see how much she weigh before you can. Definitely unique.

spk_2:   29:13
That's right. Unique. It's a different. I appreciate the difference, Uh, going back to your currently Or you just pursued your PhD. Can you give us a snapshot of just that side of you?

spk_0:   29:28
Sure. So my PhD was interested in the social and ethical implications of a growing field known as behavioral genetics. Behavioral genetics is a field that combines molecular genetics with social sciences. Feels like psychology and economics and sociology s O. I was interested in education related behaviors and outcomes. So looking at genetics research into things like intelligence and educational attainment, Mr Very controversial topics because of the history that we have in the Western world of conflating ability with skin color. Um, and I wanted to understand how this field, which is gaining traction, which is starting to put out a very public facing materials for educators, was being interpreted by teachers and more specifically, how it was affecting teacher perceptions of student ability and achievement in the U. S. Context, which is very divided along race and class lines. When it comes to test scores gifted education representation, things like that. So my PhD was working with teachers trying to understand what role in relevance they thought genetics had for education. And what are some of the big ethical concerns about this body of research and water? Things that we can do to try and mitigate the harm that this field, because from a equity equity perspective,

spk_2:   30:54
I'm so intrigued. Oh, my gosh. It sounds like a Freakonomics episode to me and Oh, my God, that's funny

spk_0:   31:04
that you say that because I work for Steve. Love it right now. So a co author of Freakonomics

spk_2:   31:09
Oh, Oh, this is like I'm so jealous. Oh, man, I listened to Freakonomics. They're so amazing. And I'm just like, Wow, okay, I'm going to struggle through this question because I didn't write it down. Oh, go. But given your lens in rowing, do you think that there's any basis for asking this question regarding rowing coaches and not just teachers? Mmm,

spk_0:   31:43
No, it's a really good question. Well, I never considered that, but yeah, I mean, I think coaches, you can think of coaches as you would teachers, right? Coaches are very impactful in athletes, lives, athletes are like students. They're learning from coaches. So how coaches perceive their students or their athletes in their potential, I'm sure, has an impact on how that athlete will then go on to perform. So it would make sense to me that just perceptions of athletic ability relate Thio how athletes end up performing. I'm

spk_2:   32:24
really I'm really interested in that work, and I can see how this work will be, um could reach the public quickly and and the negative effects or the unintended negative effects of of unchecked wind spots. How that can go. Um, and I think that especially with throwing, I just It's just a curiosity, and I know that that's not a question that needs to be answered or off problem. That needs to be, um, solved right now this very minute, but something to keep on folksminds and just speaks to the value of the work that you're doing I'm so impressed is I feel like if I say impressed, that's insulting. I'm just so excited what, and what amazing work you're doing, what amazing work you've done somewhat well. Here's to breaking barriers, guys building those bridges.

spk_0:   33:16
Yeah, absolutely. And continuing the social distance

spk_2:   33:21
on doing it from six feet away. Washed hands. All right. Thank you so much, everyone.

spk_1:   33:29
Thank you so much for listening to rowing color. If you're enjoying the podcast so far, please be sure to follow us on Spotify or hit. Subscribe. If you're listening on apple podcasts, feel free to leave an honest review. We really, really appreciate it. And shout out to Corrine and Baylor from Black Girls Row and Leslie from Oregon. Thank you so much for listening. We appreciate you and stay safe.