Sustainability Book Chat

Building a Pantry from Scratch with Kris Bordessa

‱ Deborah Niemann ‱ Episode 23

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Description 

In this episode, Deborah Niemann welcomes Kris Bordessa, author of Attainable Sustainable and the new follow-up, Attainable Sustainable Pantry. Kris shares her inspiration behind writing a book focused entirely on pantry staples and kitchen self-reliance, especially after the overwhelming response to her first book. 

Whether you’re a complete beginner or already comfortable in the kitchen, this conversation is packed with practical tips, money-saving ideas, and sustainability-minded advice for taking control of your food.

What You’ll Learn

  • Why Kris’s second book is a deep dive into pantry-focused self-reliance
  • How to replace boxed foods like pancake mix and instant oatmeal with homemade versions
  • What to do when you run out of ingredients like brown sugar or oat flour
  • Kitchen tools that make homemade cooking more accessible (hint: stand mixer wins!)
  • Tips for using up food instead of throwing it away (like turning failed bread into croutons)
  • Easy ways to start preserving food without a pressure canner, including:
  • Quick pickling
  • Dehydrating
  • Freezing in oil
  • Unexpected DIY recipes like crystallized ginger, red wine vinegar, and garlic powder
  • Kris’s favorite pantry snack: homemade cheese crackers (goodbye, Cheez-Its!)
  • Why this book is especially timely for anyone struggling with rising grocery costs

Resources Mentioned

Connect with Kris Bordessa

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Deborah Niemann  0:04  
Whoever you are, wherever you live, whatever size your living space, you can do more than you think to lead a greener lifestyle. In the sustainability book chat, we are talking to authors and experts about all the different ways that achieving sustainability is within your reach.

Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode. This is going to be a really great treat, because I am joined today by Kris Bordessa, who is the author of Attainable Sustainable, and she has just published her follow up book, Attainable, Sustainable Pantry. And she's going to tell us a little bit about the first one, and then all about the second one. Welcome to the show today, Chris.

Kris Bordessa  0:52  
Thank you. Yes, the first book came out. I've been joking recently that I'm kind of the queen of getting these books out in the middle of a kind of turmoil. My first book came out in March of 2020, so we were just locking down for COVID. And it is called Attainable Sustainable, the Lost art of Self-Reliant Living. And that one is essentially, it's a guide to getting started with being more self-reliant in your life. It covers a little bit of everything. 

We go from scratch cooking and canning and making bread to gardening and raising animals. So it covers a little bit of everything, kind of an overview, really, really a good place for beginners to start. And about six or eight months after that book came out, National Geographic came back to me and said, “Would you like to do another one?” And I honestly, I had to really think about it, because it's a lot of work. I'm running my website, and I've got a lot of other things going on, so I had to really debate. 

But, you know, at the time, I thought, well, here we are in the middle of a pandemic. What else am I going to do? So I did take it on. And that second book, like you say, just came out. It is Attainable Sustainable Pantry, and it is more of a deep dive into the pantry section of that first book. One of the things that people said about the first book was that I could have added more information, and they were absolutely correct. I could have, but we really needed to be able to lift the book as it is. They're, you know, they're both 300-page books, so we had to draw the line somewhere as far as what we included. But this second book, Attainable Sustainable Pantry, kind of allowed us to really expand on that part of the book.

Deborah Niemann  2:30  
That's awesome. Yeah, I know it's always challenging, because you've gotta be passionate about something to write the book, and then you can just run on with it forever. So it really irritates me when people will say something negative in a review because you didn't include something, you know, right? 

It's like, you gotta draw the line somewhere. So I love the title of part one, break out of the box. I think that is just such a perfect name, because so many people do purchase boxed foods. So it looks like you're talking about things like breakfast and baked goods and bread and stuff. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Kris Bordessa  3:08  
Yeah, sure. That is the beginning of the book, and it does cover like you say. It's like the mixes that you would typically buy at the grocery store. Lots and lots of people have really gotten to the point where that's what they lean on. And it's not that people don't know how to cook. I mean, in some cases it is, but a lot of it is just that we've been sold that this is the easiest way to do things, and everybody's in a hurry. We're all super busy. 

So, you know, if we have a mix or something that's ready to use at home, that's what we're leaning on. And, you know, for this book, I wanted to kind of introduce people to the idea that, if that's what you're comfortable with, if you're comfortable using a pancake mix to make your pancakes, you can make that at home and have that ready to go and shave off a little bit of prep time to cook your pancakes or your muffin mix. 

And then in that section, we also talk about bread baking. We talk about stocking your pantry and kind of an introduction to different kinds of flours. And when you would use those, we've got, you know, coffee creamer, your homemade coffee creamer. So if you are somebody who really likes a coffee creamer, and maybe you're starting to worry about all those plastic bottles you're throwing away, here's a way to make your own. 

So it's a combination, you know, for me, I'm trying to be very aware of the environment and the plastic that we're putting out into the world. So for me, it's yes, here you've got these wholesome foods. You can learn how to make your wholesome foods, and also it's going to be something that is benefiting the environment. It's going to help you not only cut your grocery bills in probably most cases, but it's also going to cut how much trash you're throwing away. 

Deborah Niemann  4:37  
I love the fact that there's also stuff in here that you can just use on a daily basis, you know, like if you run out of oat flour and you need it for a recipe right now, instead of running out to the store, you've got instructions in here about how to make oat flour out of oatmeal.

Kris Bordessa  4:50  
Right. And there are a couple of different highlights in the book where that's exactly what we're doing. Is, you know, if you're stuck and you don't have oat flour, here's how you can quickly make it at home, or if you don't have brown sugar, here's a trick for using that, and those are kind of tucked throughout the book, and part of it is just knowing that you can do that. 

I've talked to people about this a lot, and there are people who know how to cook have a hard time understanding people who don't know how to cook right, because it's so innate. I mean, I've been doing this with my blog online and talking with people online and in real life since 2011 and a lot of times people will say, I never learned, you know, I grew up in a household that is, you know, they went to Boston Market, and that was their meal plan was to stop at Boston Market, or to go grab Chinese food or whatever it was they were doing. 

You know, they just didn't have that skill. And when you don't have that skill, you don't know that you can probably whip up a batch of your own brown sugar in a pinch. So that's, you know, trying to pull that out for people to understand, or making your own croutons, that sort of thing. And, you know, making your own croutons that is a way to use bread that has gone stale, or even bread that maybe, if you tried your first batch of bread and it didn't work out perfectly, you could turn it into croutons. And we talk about how to do that, and again, saving money at the store and figuring out how to use what you have instead of wasting it. 

Deborah Niemann  6:07  
Yeah, my second book, way back in 2012 was called Ecothrifty, and I did a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, like, I didn't include this tip that you have, but I think this is fabulous, like, you've got instant oatmeal mix. People say, Well, oh, I need those little packets of oatmeal because I don't have time in the morning. Well, but you've got time on the weekend, and then probably take you five minutes to mix up all the oatmeal that you need for the whole week. And you've got the recipe in here for creating your own instant oatmeal mix. And so you've just saved a lot of money, like that's really going to add up.

Kris Bordessa  6:42  
That kind of stuff, it is. It's expensive. And, you know, we're all watching our budget these days, and to go out and buy that stuff you're paying for convenience, right? And it is convenient, so nobody's going to argue that that's not convenient. But if you're trying to cut back on your grocery spending and kind of bring it a little bit closer to home so that you can handle the things that you're used to buying. Those are the kind of things that are in there. 

Deborah Niemann  7:05  
Yeah, it is fabulous. And then you've also got a section on kitchen tools, which definitely can make the difference between success and wanting to pull your hair out when you're doing some of these things. Just pick one like, what would be the one thing that you would suggest people get.

Kris Bordessa  7:22  
You know, it's so hard to just pick the one thing. You know, I use, and this ties in a little bit to an idea that could be talked about too, and that is, I use my stand mixer a lot. I happen to have a KitchenAid. It's one that my kids picked up for me at a garage sale. But you don't have to have that more expensive brand, but a stand mixer is great because you can use it for mixing bread doughs and pizza dough and that sort of thing, along with, you know, baking a batch of cookies and muffins. 

My thing is, with that stand mixer, it allows me to make bread more easily. It makes it accessible. Can I make bread by kneading it by hand? I absolutely can. I know how, and I think it's an important skill to have. But if that stand mixer is, you know, is the difference between me making a loaf of bread or not, I'm going to go with the convenience that makes it easier for me. So that one is one that gets used a lot. You know that one in particular, we also use, and because I'm in Hawaii, and we do grow bananas, so we very frequently use our mandolin. We use it for slicing the bananas into thin slices, for dehydrating.

Deborah Niemann  8:31  
Yeah, I definitely would have chosen the stand mixer as my number one, especially if you're baking bread, that's just so easy. You just throw everything in there and start, and then you could just turn around and do other stuff in the kitchen while it's doing all that hard work for you. 

Kris Bordessa  8:46  
That's exactly right. So you know, if there's a shortcut that you can take, hey, I mean, this is more related to gardening, but same thing applies. I see a lot of people saying, I've got all these seeds, and I'm afraid to go buy seedlings, because I feel like that's cheating, and I feel very much like it's not cheating. It's helping you to get further ahead. It's helping you to move forward. So if you know, if seedlings, you feel like that's a cheat, it's going to get you further ahead. If the stand mixer is going to get you further ahead, and it's something that you can do more easily, then by all means, cheat away.

Deborah Niemann  9:18  
Yeah, exactly. It's not cheating at all. It's not.

Kris Bordessa  9:22  
Yeah, it's using your time wisely.

Deborah Niemann  9:25  
Yeah, all right, I'm just gonna make you pick a bunch of your favorite children here. There are so many cool things in this book, like, you get a whole section on snacks, which, like, that's another one of those things where everybody's like, Oh, I have to buy snacks. And obviously, if they look at your book, it's like, Nope, you don't have to buy snacks.

Kris Bordessa  9:45  
So, right? You can make your own snacks. 

Deborah Niemann  9:48  
What's your favorite? 

Kris Bordessa  9:51  
Well, I'm trying to remember if this was in the first book or the second book, and I'm looking, I think it's an Attainable Sustainable Pantry, but don't quote me on that. Homemade cheese crackers. 

Deborah Niemann  10:00  
Yeah, it’s in here.

Kris Bordessa  10:02  
Is that one in here? Did you see it? This book has been five years in the making, so I wrote this, you know, like years ago, and I'm trying to remember what's in it, the homemade cheese crackers I have said, if I was going to be, you know, stuck on a deserted island somewhere, Cheez Its are a food that I could eat and eat and eat, not healthy, no. But that is a treat for me. So that's one that I definitely would consider a favorite. And it's incredibly easy to make. My kids when they were teenagers, used to make their own crackers. Super, super simple. 

Deborah Niemann  10:33  
Yeah, it's fantastic. And then I love to use these little tips throughout the book, obviously, in case people haven't figured out yet, there's a lot of recipes in here, and it's recipes to replace the stuff that you normally are buying in bags and boxes in the store, the convenience foods. But then you've also got little, awesome little tips in here, like, about freezing guacamole because it's so hard, like you're in Hawaii, which makes me very jealous, because stuff is, like, always in season for you. But for those of us on the continental US, you know you can't always find good avocados in the store, and so knowing that you can freeze the guacamole, that is a really important tip,

Kris Bordessa  11:15  
Right. And that's I mean, like I say, I've tried to scatter this stuff throughout the book so the people who are not familiar with cooking, or, you know how to freeze things. I guess it's trying to give people the encouragement to do this. You know, if they're a little bit unsure, how do I save this guacamole? Or how do I preserve, you know, what if I had too many loaves of bread, can I freeze it? This sort of thing? I don't know. It just makes it a little bit more accessible. I hope that that's the hope is that it's more accessible for people who are just learning to do this.

Deborah Niemann  11:46  
And I've also got to say that what you get in the book is so much more than just what's written, because it is filled with beautiful color photographs, like, yeah, just so many beautiful photographs that you can see you know what you're doing and what it looks like, which I really like pictures in a book that has recipes, because sometimes you can't always picture what they're talking about. You know, there may be people listening that are like, really, you can make your own cheeses. I'm not convinced, right? But I saw the picture in the book and I knew immediately what it was, yeah.

Kris Bordessa  12:20  
And that's true. And, I mean, I have to say, to be completely transparent. There are not photos for every single recipe, but there are a lot.

Deborah Niemann  12:27  
First of all, so the book is kind of, I don't know, I kind of see it as in two parts. The first part is like replacing a lot of the things that you've got in the bags, in the boxes from the store. And then the second part is a lot on preserving things that you grow, or even if you just want to buy a lot at the farmer's market, right? What do you think is the easiest thing when it comes to food preservation? What's the easiest thing for people to start with? 

Kris Bordessa  12:49  
Well, it depends on what kind of food preservation you know, dehydrating food is very easy, but it's one of those things that I find it's really best if you have a dehydrator. Yes, you can dehydrate in your oven. You can dehydrate in your very hot summertime car. I've had people laugh about that one, but, you know, the dehydrator just makes it more efficient, because you can do a bunch of trays of things at once. 

So, you know, that's a really accessible thing if you want to invest in a dehydrator, you know what? Let's talk about pickling, quick pickling, because that doesn't even get into the actual canning of it. You know, the idea of pickling is putting fruits or vegetables in a brine of vinegar, and that brine can vary. It can be a sweet brine, it can be a sour one, it can be a spicy one. Just depends on what you're doing. And if you have a basic brine, you can really pickle just about anything. And that is a really easy thing to do, because those pickles can just go straight into the fridge. There's no processing or anything involved. 

And there is a section on quick pickling in the book with, you know, a bunch of different refrigerator pickles that you can make, pickled onions, pickled beets. There's an Asian style mixed vegetables that's really good. So that is one. If you've got a garden that's going off and you've got your zucchini or your cucumbers, you can make refrigerator pickles. Then, like you say, if people don't have a garden, you can pickle or preserve things that you find on sale at the grocery store. You know, you got a great sale on carrots. Go make some pickled carrots, ferment some carrots. 

You know, it doesn't have to be out of your garden. That's another thing that is, you know, people think, Well, I have to grow it. No, here's another cheat that I'm giving permission to take. Go find it where you can. A lot of people are doing CSA boxes, the Community Supported Agriculture, where you're dealing directly with a farmer. That's another way to get fresh produce to preserve.

Deborah Niemann  14:36  
Well, I know I saw something in here that I am going to try, because I love crystallized ginger. It never occurred to me that you could make that yourself.

Kris Bordessa  14:46  
Yeah, you can. It's very tasty. You know, you start with your fresh ginger and you know, you cook it down in a syrup. And the bonus here is that not only do you have the ginger that is cooked down and then tossed with sugar. Or so it's that crystallized ginger that you're used to, but the liquid that you boiled the ginger in ends up being a ginger syrup. It's like a ginger simple syrup. So then you've got a ginger syrup that you can, you know, use for stirring into flavoring things. You can add it to salad dressings or baked goods or what have you. 

Deborah Niemann  15:17  
Yeah, and I know when we say canning and preserving and stuff, people just automatically think of like water bath canners and pressure canners and stuff. But what is so cool about your book is that it has a lot of options in there that don't include that specialized equipment also preserving food in oil.

Kris Bordessa  15:34  
Yeah, preserving food in oil is a tricky one. That's an old school method. You know, the one thing that I have been very careful with about this book is making sure that we are using safe methods. National Center for Home Food Preservation came on and reviewed all of the canning recipes in the book, which was super important to me, because there's a lot of crazy stuff out there on the internet with people doing really dangerous things. 

So yeah, I'm I wanted to be very careful about that. And in the preserving in oil, a lot of these are very short turnaround, I guess, items, but those things are essentially make them, keep them in the refrigerator and use them very quickly. That oil is adding a lot of flavor to the product. It's not something that's going to make them real shelf stable for long periods. And that limitation is noted in here. The all of those limitations are the grilled vegetables or roasted peppers and oil. You gotta be real careful of because that environment, if it's left for a long time, it allows for the botulism to form in there, which obviously we don't want,

Deborah Niemann  16:34  
And are you going to keep those things in the refrigerator? Are they good at room temperature?

Kris Bordessa  16:40  
You keep them refrigerated. Yeah, okay. 

Deborah Niemann
And how long are they? 

Kris Bordessa
Well, you could freeze them that, you know, that's the other thing is, once they're in the oil, you can take that whole thing and freeze those to extend that so that you kind of always have them. If you know, if you use red peppers in oil a lot, in a salad or what have you, you can keep them frozen, and that allows them to stay longer. If you freeze them, they'll last for several months, all right? 

Deborah Niemann  17:04  
And then, along the lines of, like, cool things, again, I didn't know you could do that, like making your own garlic powder and dried onion bits. I love garlic and onions so much. Like, those are things that we go through really fast. 

Kris Bordessa  17:18  
Yeah, you know, if you've got a dehydrator, and dehydrating is what you're interested in exploring. They're easy to do. If you want to make a powder, you're going to need some sort of blender or, you know, spice grinder to make that fine powder. But yeah, it's really easy. And in fact, what we discovered was that if we take onion slices and just dehydrate them until they're, you know, nice and almost crispy. My husband was eating them as a snack. He's a onion lover, and they're, you know, they're kind of delicious.

Deborah Niemann  17:46  
Now that you mentioned it, that actually sounds good.

Kris Bordessa  17:49  
Yeah, it was, you know, like, Okay, well, these are fine, just like this. We don't need to turn them into something to cook with. They actually were good to eat on their own. 

Deborah Niemann  17:57  
Yeah, that does sound good. One of the things that really surprised me? Well, I had a lot of surprises. Because when I think of fermented foods, you know, I just think of sauerkraut and kimchi and right? But you've got some other stuff in here too, that, like, I just wouldn't have thought as spicy fermented cauliflower, like that. Sounds really good. 

Kris Bordessa  18:18  
It's very good. That's one of my favorites, actually. It's a little bit like, I mean, you know how, or at least at my house, when you go get the gardinera at the store, that's what I pick out. Is the cauliflower. That's my favorite thing out of there. The gardinera that you would get at the store is pickled with vinegar. This is actually fermented, and it's still gives you that tangy kind of vinegary flavor, but it's done through fermentation, rather than with the vinegar, yeah? 

Like that one, I ferment garlic cloves, and I love that, because it's handy to just once in the refrigerator and ferment it. I can keep them in there, and I just grab out what I need and toss them into anything. I can toss them into my salad dressings. I toss them into cooking, and you don't have to worry about always keeping fresh garlic right on hand. 

Deborah Niemann  18:59  
One of the things that surprised me I had not even thought about. Well, I said the cauliflower was surprising, but red wine vinegar. And the reason I'm surprised I never thought about making my own vinegar is because my husband actually makes wine.

Kris Bordessa  19:12  
You don't want it to be vinegar,

Deborah Niemann  19:14  
Right? Exactly, yeah, and I don't know how you feel about me saying, Hey, I'm going to take this bottle of wine and turn it into vinegar. But we buy red wine vinegar, so why not take a bottle of that wine and turn it into vinegar?

Kris Bordessa  19:28  
Yeah, and it can be kind of mixed and matched, you know, if you have a party and at the end of the night you've got half a dozen bottles of, you know, that just have a couple inches of wine left in the bottom, you can mix it all together and let that ferment. That way you're not tossing those out, yeah, you're not cutting into a nice, good bottle of wine. But you know what? I mean, there's always a little bit of wine left when you've got people gathered, and you can do it with that.

Deborah Niemann  19:55  
And even sometimes, you know, like, we like to have wine with dinner, but just a glass. And so if you don't drink the second half of that bottle within a day or two, the flavor goes downhill really fast.

Kris Bordessa  20:08  
So that's the kind of thing that you would, you know, be able to turn into vinegar without feeling like you were wasting a good bottle of red wine.

Deborah Niemann  20:15  
Yeah, I love it. Definitely going to try that one. 

Kris Bordessa  20:19  
Yeah, no more wasted wine. 

Deborah Niemann  20:24  
Exactly, and no more tolerating wine that's been open for a week that you forgot about in the refrigerator. 

Kris Bordessa  20:30  
And you feel bad about not drinking it because it's going to go to waste, now it's not going to go to waste because you know what to do.

Deborah Niemann  20:35  
Yeah, exactly. I love that. I can't think of anything that you left out of this book. You know, like in the fermentation section, you've also got information on yogurt, and then you do get into the home canning and stuff, but it's so comprehensive, I think we started by saying that it's annoying when people say you should have included XYZ. I don't know what anybody could say, like you should have included here, because I feel like you've made it incredibly comprehensive. Well, you said it's 300 pages. 

Kris Bordessa  21:09  
So, yeah, 300 pages. Well, good. I mean, that's good to hear. I'm glad of that, but I'm, you know, I'm confident somebody will come along and say, How come you don't have a recipe for and that's okay, a lot of times it's on my website, if there's a recipe for it, it just didn't get in the book. Yes, I covered that, but, but it was in the earlier book. Like I said, the second one is a deeper dive, so it's got a lot more recipes in it than the first one did.

Deborah Niemann  21:29  
So if people are listening to this and they're not sure, they're like, Oh, well, which book should I get? If somebody is book shopping and trying to pick between the two, what would be the deciding factor for somebody to say, Oh, get Attainable Sustainable or get the new Attainable Sustainable Pantry?

Kris Bordessa  21:45  
Well, I think it would be if somebody is really focusing on their food, if they're really focusing on trying to figure out how to bring that closer to home, Pantry is going to be the one that they want, because it's strictly, you know, and I cover from building that pantry, and you know how to store things and kind of introducing people to different grains and that sort of thing, coupled with recipes and then coupled with, as we say, preserving foods and canning, if that's what they're looking for, that's going to be the book. 

I think, if they are more trying to figure out how to maybe shift their lifestyle to a more simpler living plan, and again, bringing things closer to home. The first book, it does have some food recipes, but it also covers some natural cleaning and natural, you know, skincare and that sort of thing, along with gardening and more homesteading type projects for people to follow through with.

Deborah Niemann  22:41  
That sounds so cool. It sounds a lot like my book EcoThrifty, which is out of print now, sadly, but I did a lot of the same stuff. And I noticed that too. I didn't mention it, but that you've got, like, I did notice a couple of cleaning tips in here and stuff.

Kris Bordessa  22:55  
I kind of sprinkled through, you know, and I tried to sprinkle in a little bit of eco awareness, even in the pantry book, you know, when people are cooking, how do you choose your wax paper? Or, you know, do you want to try and get a more natural wax paper, or one that's petroleum based? 

So I cover that just a little bit, just a little snippets, just to kind of educate people as they're going, like, like, I say very often, stuff that people have not thought about or considered. So it's not daunting, like, we're going to read out, you know, it's a couple sentences here and there. So people, you just can kind of gain a little bit of an understanding, right?

Deborah Niemann  23:26  
Yeah, it just kind of opens their eyes to the topic. And if they really want to take a deep dive into that,

Kris Bordessa  23:31  
That's right, there are so many other places that they could take a deep dive. In the case of those little snippets, it's kind of just to introduce them to the idea that, you know, maybe you don't want petroleum on your food, and maybe they don't care that, you know, that's fine too, but it's just an introduction to, you know that there's an alternative,

Deborah Niemann  23:48  
Yeah. Well, I think this is a fantastic book, again, just like so many really basic recipes, and by basic, I don't mean simple or whatever, but, well, although they are simple,

Kris Bordessa  24:03  
What it is is the things that you would typically buy at the store, the condiments and mixes. It's just a way to stock your pantry, making it yourself.

Deborah Niemann  24:12  
Exactly. So, yeah, I think this would have been like the perfect follow up to my book Ecothrifty, if I had done a follow up on it, because I've got six or seven recipes in there that were some of, you know, how to cook beans, and like, here's the basis of making a cream soup. So you don't have to buy a Campbell's cream of mushroom soup for your green bean casserole, that kind of stuff. But you just took it to such an amazing level here and included so many things that you know, the more that they do from this book, the more money that they're going to save.

Kris Bordessa  24:47  
I think so. And I think that right now, I am hearing a lot of people talk about the cost of groceries and just how their eyeballs are popping out of their head when they go to the store. So yes, embracing some of these different recipes and doing it yourself. Yeah, it's going to end up saving people money if they can jump in and, you know, they don't have to learn to do it all at once. You know, take a weekend and learn one recipe and learn it well, even you do nothing else but learn how to make your own bread that's going to save you. I mean, bread is so expensive here, yeah, yeah, learn to make bread that'll save you some money, yep.

Deborah Niemann  25:18  
Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Kris Bordessa  25:21  
Of course. Thanks for having me on.

Deborah Niemann  25:25  
And then, where can people find you online?

Kris Bordessa  25:26  
I am at attainablesustainable.net, it's my website where there are even more recipes, and then I'm Attainable Sustainable on Facebook and all the different social medias as well.

Deborah Niemann  25:36  
Awesome. Alright. Well, thanks so much. And that's it for today's episode. You can find show notes at thriftyhomesteader.com/bookchat, as well as a transcript. If you haven't already done so, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. You can also find Thrifty Homesteader on Facebook, Instagram, and Pinterest. See you next week on Sustainability Book Chat.