Packgoats 101: Getting Started with Hiking Companions on Hooves

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Description

If you're considering adding pack goating to your goats’ resumes, this episode is packed with practical tips and essential insights. Deborah Niemann chats with Nathan Putnam, a board member of the North American Pack Goat Association and owner of Putnam Pack Goats. Together, they dive into the world of pack goats, from choosing the right goats to the gear you'll need for your trips.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• The history of pack goating and how it started in the 1970s.
• Why pack goats are a growing alternative to horses and llamas for backcountry hiking and camping.
• What to look for in a goat for packing: from breed preferences to physical traits and characteristics.
• The age at which to start training your goats and how to gradually increase their load capacity.
• Essential gear for pack goating, including saddles, panniers, and leads.
• How to train adult goats, even those already in your herd, to become pack goats.
• What to expect on a typical pack goating trip: daily routines, feeding, and water strategies.
• Dealing with predators and other considerations when hiking with goats in the backcountry.
  
  

Whether you’re looking to start pack goating or just want to learn more about it, this episode offers valuable advice and inspiration. Nathan shares his experience and knowledge, making it easier than ever to embark on your own pack goat adventure.

Resources:

• North American Pack Goat Association (NAPgA)
• Putnam Pack Goats

If you’ve ever thought about earning an income with goats, check out our list of goat business ideas to spark your own inspiration.

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Transcript

Intro  0:03  
For the love of goats, we are talking about everything goats, whether you're a goat owner, a breeder, or just a fan of these wonderful creatures. We've got you covered. And now here is Deborah Niemann.

Deborah Niemann  0:18  
Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode. Today, we are talking about pack goats, which is something completely fun. And we are joined by Nathan Putnam, a board member of the North American Pack Goat Association, and the owner of Putnam Pack Goats. Welcome to the show today, Nathan.

Nathan Putnam  0:34  
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

Deborah Niemann  0:35  
So let's just get started with the basics, like, what exactly is a pack goat? And sounds like they carry stuff. And so what kind of things do they carry?

Nathan Putnam  0:44  
Oh, yeah, definitely. A pack goat is - it's kind of a general term. It doesn't necessarily need to be a goat that carries something for you, but there's a group of people out there, and we like to hike with our goats. A lot of us are back country campers, back country hunters, and so we utilize pack goats to carry our gear in the back country.

Deborah Niemann  1:01  
Okay? And how exactly did pack goating get started? And has it been growing in the recent years?

Nathan Putnam  1:07  
Oh, definitely. So in the 1970s the founder, John Mindzinsky, he worked for the Forest Service in Wyoming, and he was a biologist, and he was up doing studies about bighorn sheep, and he didn't have he had to carry all his gear himself, and he was trying to keep up with these sheep, and using radio collars in order to do it, and with all the heavy equipment and everything like that, he just was having a really hard time doing it. And so he had a bunch of goats at home, and he thought to himself, well, maybe I could just have these goats carry my gear for me. And that's just how it started. 

Nathan Putnam  1:42  
He went home, he made a saddle, he started using his goats to carry his biology gear and his camp gear and everything like that. And it took off from there. And now we have 1000s of people pack goating out there. And, yeah, it's a growing market. I have people every day that reach out to me and ask about getting started probably help almost 100 people a year with all of their questions and everything like that on getting started. So it's definitely a growing part of the goat industry

Deborah Niemann  2:11  
Cool. So what are the benefits of using goats for packing compared to other animals like horses or llamas or anything else? 

Nathan Putnam  2:19  
So, goats are a lot more manageable. Anybody that owns goats will tell you that, you know, they can be a little unmanageable when they're at home, but it's just as far as like operating costs go, goats are really, really easy to take care of, and you don't really have to feed them a ton compared to other larger livestock. As far as transporting them, you really only need a pickup truck with a camper, like a camper shell on it, and it's really easy to go and take them hiking and hit your trail heads and everything like that. 

Nathan Putnam  2:46  
So you're not really investing into like, horse trailers and really big pickup trucks in order to do it, especially if you only have a couple goats, and then it's just a lot easier. Like, you're not dealing with these large animals. They're low impact. So when you're out there in the back country, you're not really tearing up the trail or anything like that. And we have a lot of people now these days who have been lifetime horse packers, lifetime mule packers, and they're getting into goats because they're just a lot easier to manage. They're easier to equip. You don't need to worry about this large animal injuring you while you're on trail. So we're seeing a lot of people from the larger pack stock world that are now getting into pack goats because they're a little bit older and they just want something that's just a little bit easier to manage.

Deborah Niemann  3:30  
Nice. I like that. So are there any specific breeds that make better pack goats than others, and if not a breed, is there, are there specific traits that you should look for in a potential pack goat?

Nathan Putnam  3:42  
The breed question is always one that is like a heated debate in the pack goat world, because everybody has their preference, you know, and I think that's kind of how it goes with all goat breeders. Alpines generally are preferred because they're really athletic, but they do have some negative traits. They can be kind of bullies and butt heads to each other, and so it's really hard to manage them, especially if you have pure Alpines. So a lot of people are experimenting with crosses. A lot of people are using other breeds than Alpine. Personally, we breed pack goats. I breed a Sable-Saanen and Boer-Alpine cross that we call a Saber Pine. 

Nathan Putnam  4:17  
And we kind of pick and choose the characteristics that we really liked out of that breed. So you have the Alpine for the athleticism and the height, you have the Boer for kind of that muscle mass and bone density. And the Sable Saanens, they have that nice darker pigment. They're not that really light pigment like the traditional Saanens have, and they have these really mellow personalities, and they're also athletic as well. So when you get that whole mixture in there, you have a really tall, athletic, big bodied, mellow goat, and they're just really easy to manage on trail, averaging 250 pounds or better. So it's been our little niche as far as like, the type of packing that we do and the type of goats that we need. They just really fit that niche very well.

Deborah Niemann  5:03  
Okay, cool. So are wethers the best for this, or can you also use bucks and does?

Nathan Putnam  5:09  
So there are people that use bucks and does. I use it as an opportunity to train my bucks before I wether them. Every once in a while I have a breeding buck, and I'll use them for a couple years and I wether him, and so he'll hike with me in the off season. In the fall, they're really unmanageable, super stinky, so you don't really want to hike with them. But in like, the spring and summertime, they're usually pretty docile and easy to manage. 

Nathan Putnam  5:30  
And then some people do pack with their does. The big issue with packing with does is just that they don't really get as big as wethers. And so if you have a certain amount of mouths that you want to feed, then you really have to consider like, do I want to have a doe that might about 150 maybe 175 pounds, or do I want to invest in wethers that are going to be 200 and to 250 pounds and when they can carry a quarter of their body weight? That's the difference between carrying a 30 pound load or carrying a 50 pound load.

Deborah Niemann  6:00  
Okay, and at what age can you start training a goat to carry a pack?

Nathan Putnam  6:06  
So training for us is hiking, and that starts within a couple months, like two to three months, they'll go on these little baby trainer hikes, and we'll take them down. I have a place about 20 minutes from my house. There's a bunch of rocks there. It's right along the river. It's a really beautiful place to hike. They get to go and they get to play on the rock. So we start them out really easy two mile hikes. Try and do it once a month. Every couple months, we don't really have to do a ton of input with them. It's more just to get them into the idea of, like, being out there having fun with us, following us. 

Nathan Putnam  6:35  
And then six months to a year, they start hiking with the big boys. Those are five mile trips, usually three to five miles, sometimes up to eight. And then we'll introduce them to pack gear when they are two, two and a half that we usually put them into an adult saddle, and they will just pack empty for a while. And they get used to their saddles, and at three years, we can start doing reduced loads, so say 10% of body weight, and by four years, is when they're officially ready to start packing, and that's when they can do a quarter body weight. So as long as everything goes well with them, as far as their training and conditioning, once they hit four years, they can do a quarter of their body weight. And we typically top out 50 pound loads for our goats. So with a string of 10 or 12 goats, we can carry quite a bit, and that's typically what I bring into that country.

Deborah Niemann  7:26  
Okay, so I've heard you mentioned saddles. What other kind of gear do you need for pack goating?

Nathan Putnam  7:32  
I mean, it really just depends. There's a ton of saddles out there, like a ton of different options. There's your traditional cross bucks, like wooden pack frames, and then there's a lot of really neat, new, more modern type backpacking saddles. I build one Putnam Pack Goats is my gear business that you can do. There's different size panniers, depending on whether you're not you're a day hiker or a back country type camper, depending on how much gear you want to bring, basically. 

Nathan Putnam  7:59  
And then everybody has a lead. Everybody has a caller. Collars have identifying information on them, like your number, stuff like that, just in case they get separated and somebody else finds them. But hopefully that never happens. And then we have a lead for them so that we can lead them if necessary, but also we can tie them out when we're in the backcountry and we are overnighting because you don't want them just kind of wandering around your camp at night. You want to know where everybody is and that they're going to be safe. 

Deborah Niemann  8:28  
Okay, and then do you need to start training a goat when they're little? Or, like, if somebody's got a four or five year old goat or a few four or five year old goats at home, can you start training them at that age? Or, how does that work?

Nathan Putnam  8:39  
Oh, definitely. Really, they just need to be a good follower. A goat that leads well or follows well will probably make a really good hiking goat. It really just depends on their conditioning and if they have the drive for it. That's really with all of the breeds that we select for pack goats, they really need to have the like the heart for being a pack goat, for wanting to follow, like for wanting to keep up. It's really just about what you want to do with them, with whether or not they're going to work out for you. But I call those pasture potatoes. 

Nathan Putnam  9:08  
I know a lot of people that convert pastured potatoes into good pack goats, so the older ones, they can still work out for you. It's just, it's really just about the amount of work that you're willing to put into them, and if they're going to work out. So if they are perfectly sound, perfectly healthy, if they need to shave a little bit of weight, that's not a big deal. It's just the things that you want to look out for are, like conformational issues, stuff that would prevent them from being able to carry a load. And then goats that just don't want to cooperate, those are the ones that you don't want to fight with in the backcountry.

Deborah Niemann  9:41  
Okay? So if somebody's got a whole herd of goats and it doesn't work out with a couple of them, don't give up. Just go ahead and try some other ones that would be more amenable to that.

Nathan Putnam  9:51  
Exactly know which ones they are, because they're like, your friendly out of pocket goats, and they're the ones that are coming and saying hi to you and and like asking for a treat out of your pocket. Those are the ones that are probably going to stick with you in the backcountry. And the best thing that you do for yourself, if you're really interested, is take, like, one or two goats and load them up, and then go to a trailhead and put them on a lead, so that they'll follow you and and if they follow you, that's great. And if it's a fight, then go home and pick a couple more goats, but, but typically, you kind of get an idea for the ones that'll work out and the ones that won't.

Deborah Niemann  10:25  
Okay. So you mentioned being good conformationally. What are the physical requirements for a good pack goat?

Nathan Putnam  10:32  
So conformation, a lot of it is the same as what you see in the dairy world, where we want to have just like a really sound confirmation, like nothing really weird as far as, like, their gait, or their walk, or anything like that. One of the things that I see a lot of is sway backs in goats and like, like the dip in their back. And you see that a lot with Boers, especially with the show Boers. Like, you'll see it in Nubians as well. You kind of want to stay away from that, because when they have that sway back, they can't really wear a saddle really well, and it puts all that pressure in the center of their spine. 

Nathan Putnam  11:06  
So there are certain saddles out there, like the Sopris saddle, where you can utilize that in order to kind of fit that kind of body style. You have to watch their back legs, especially if they're too linear. Then they do this weird thing where they will walk, and they will place their back foot, and it'll pivot, and then they'll step up. And it's almost like they don't really have a good ground like when they're walking that way. So they're like, constantly walking and shifting and stepping and walking and shifting and stepping. 

Nathan Putnam  11:35  
And so the goats that I've found that do that, they usually have balance issues, and then otherwise, it's just the same, like, conformational standards as anything else. You don't want them too big in the chest, you know, too long in the body. I really like a tall, leggy goat that has a short body. Those usually pack really well for me. They can usually maneuver really well, like, turn in tight corners. Those are the types of animals that you want in the back country, because a lot of the stuff that we're doing, you're like, climbing over rocks and taking really technical trails. Sometimes we're not even on trails, and so it's just really about like, figuring out the body type that works well for the packing that you're doing.

Deborah Niemann  12:16  
Okay, so what does a typical pack goating trip look like in terms of daily routines and care.

Nathan Putnam  12:23  
I like to load up early. I really hate loading up, like, midday, late day. I always find that they go into grazing mode. And so if I get up and I feed them, they're in grazing mode the rest of the day. And so they don't really like to cooperate when I get to the trailhead. If I do, like, an afternoon, evening type, pack in. If I do it, it's usually a struggle. Or we'll usually drive in somewhere, and we'll just camp. We'll camp within like a mile or two of the truck. We won't really do a ton of miles, but ideally, I get up early, we get all the goats collared and loaded up into the pickup truck, and then head to the trailhead, and then I will stage all of my gear, and so all their saddles are laid out, all of the panniers and stuff that have been pre weighed and all that while I was at home, get set up with their saddles, and then we'll pull a goat from the truck, put a saddle and panniers on them, turn them loose. 

Nathan Putnam  13:12  
They go and they graze. Then all their buddies come out of the truck, and we do the same thing. And then we just hit the trail. And just judging them and how they're cooperating is we can do a couple miles that day. Sometimes we can do several miles. I mean, there's 8, 10, 12 miles is not unheard of for goat packing. It really just depends on the terrain that you're doing. And then it's just taking breaks occasionally so that they will keep up. 

Nathan Putnam  13:39  
If they're getting really gassed, then we'll take an extended break, or we'll just call it quits for the day, and then eventually, in the evening, we find a camp spot, and I pick a spot where I can set my tent up, and I can see all the goats from the flap of my tent, and throw a high line out and string everybody up and remove their packs and set my camp up, and then start the entire process all over again. The next day, pack everything up, throw it on the goats, unhook them, and we're on our way.

Deborah Niemann  14:08  
Okay, so then, how do you handle feeding and watering the goats? When you're on the trail?

Nathan Putnam  14:13  
Feeding, they're constantly doing it. They're constantly forging. They're taking little bites here and there. In the evenings, I'll let them go and mill around camp, and they'll kind of forage around camp. Anything is a great opportunity for a goat. As far as water goes, we just kind of pick and choose when we have the opportunity for it. I really like to camp on water. It's one of my things is like, if I can camp on water, I can go and I can scoop a collapsible bucket and plop it in the middle of my camp. And goats will come in and they'll drink from the bucket. 

Nathan Putnam  14:36  
If I need to get them to get them to drink from a stream, it has to be a really shallow approach, because they don't really like to go at like a steep angle down to the water to get a drink. They want to be able to do like an easy walk up to water. And so the bucket, for me, means that they can drink as much as they want. They're really comfortable with it. It's not moving anywhere or anything like that. It just sits there. Well, I'll go and I'll scoop that bucket, and then, like, as long as we can do that once a day, I don't worry about them, and multiple times a day, that's great. But there are a lot of times when we're back country hunting in September, and we're really just, we're on water once a day. And so I always try and finish on water that way we can all tank up again for the next morning. I can go and I can go and I can fill all my water bottles for the next day. So that's just how I prefer to do it.

Deborah Niemann  15:27  
Is there anything else that people need to think about before getting started?

Nathan Putnam  15:32  
So really, it's just about the area that you're in and the opportunity that you have for hiking with goats. We're seeing a lot of people on the East Coast that are getting interested in it, and they're finding that you can't always take them everywhere, that you can take dogs to hike or anything like that. Like the Appalachian Trail, it's close to pack goats. There are places over here in the Northwest that are closed to pack goats because of bighorn sheep and risk of the disease transmission between goats and bighorns. 

Nathan Putnam  15:57  
So it's one of those things where you want to kind of research it and see what kind of people are doing it in your area before you get started. And just because you're the first person to pop up in your state that wants to pack with ghosts doesn't necessarily mean that you can't do it. It's just you want to make sure, like, the place that you want to take them to you can hike with them, you know. So after that, it's really easy. It's about how much you want to dive in, you know. Like, there are a lot of intricacies to it, as far as, like, predator conflicts and how much you need to worry about that, depending on where you're at. 

Nathan Putnam  16:27  
We're in a place where we have mountain lions, bears, wolves. We've seen it all in the back country, and so you just kind of have to know how to operate your animals and keep them close at night. And that's why we use a high line and tie out right next to the tent. And you have to know how to encounter, like, deal with encounters with dogs on trail, and it's a lot of it for us is just thinking about these things before they actually happen. So like, mentally, I'm always prepared to encounter a hiker that has a dog, just because we've done it hundreds of times. We've encountered bears at like, five yards on trail. And so I know how to deal with that. But before that, I was like, what would I do if we encountered a bear at five yards, you know? How would I act? So a lot of it is just like mental training, you know.

Deborah Niemann  17:15  
Wow, that would be scary. The meeting bears kind of got my attention.

Nathan Putnam  17:21  
That was crazy. So I've encountered several of them, but that one in particular, I was muzzleloader hunting, and so that bear came home with us. Yeah, it was like, very close, heavy brush, like we're just sneaking along trying to find I had a muzzle loader bull tag, and we blew a bear out of the brush right in front of us, and it just whirled around and stopped at five yards and looked straight at us. I just kind of had to, like, make a decision right there, and I had a bear tag, and so I just shot the bear and packed it up, and we went back to the truck, and we're off the mountain within like, two hours, and it worked out pretty well for us.

Deborah Niemann  17:56  
Yeah, wow, I know I feel like we've got nothing to complain about in Illinois for predators. You know, we've just got dogs and coyotes, that's it. 

Nathan Putnam  18:03  
Yeah. 

Deborah Niemann  18:04  
I think everybody has got it worse than us for predators. So..

Nathan Putnam  18:09  
So the dog thing is, is actually the scariest for me, because dogs are so familiar with people, and so they're not really scared of people, and they have a predator drive, so, like, they get really excited with other animals, and then if those animals run off, then they get really excited and they want to give chase. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered that have been like, Oh, he's friendly. And then they're like, too excited about the goats, and the goats get nervous, and then the goats spook, and then they want to chase him. 

Nathan Putnam  18:35  
And I'm a really big guy, so I just yell at them, and they usually know like to be terrified of humans when they start yelling, and so that's usually what I do. But I've had instances where the dogs have gone after the goats, and I've had to sit put, like, put myself in front of them. And I had one really weird one where the dog just kind of like, walked up to sniff one of the goats and then latched onto it. But did it all really slowly, like, the goat freaked out about it, but it wasn't like biting down, it was just like, latched onto its neck, and the owner came over and there was this big hubbub about, like, separating them. And that's the most aggressive dog encounter on trail that I've ever dealt with, because after that, I just said, I'm not even gonna let these animals, like these dogs, near my animals. I'm just gonna separate myself.

Deborah Niemann  19:18  
I'm glad you mentioned about the dogs, because I know so many people don't think of domestic dogs as being a predator, but they really are, and a lot of goats get killed every year by domestic dogs. So that's definitely something that people need to keep their eyes open for. And next week, we're going to be talking about the public lands and pack goats. So if you're interested in learning more about that, definitely tune in next week to get more information on that. Where can people find you online? 

Nathan Putnam  19:48  
The best place to find me is NAPgA.org. That's the North American Pack Goat Association. I'm a board member. I'm the marketing chair, so my role is to grow and develop the sport of pack goats and to expose people to NAPgA and what we do. And then if you want to reach out to me personally, I have my website, PutnamPackGoats.com , and you can send me an email. You can ask me any questions that you want about goat packing or gear or anything like that. And I'm just always happy to talk about goats with anyone. It's my job, but it's also my passion. So yeah, those are the two best ways to get a hold of me. 

Deborah Niemann  20:22  
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really interesting and fun and a little bit more lighthearted than a lot of the things we talk about on here. So I think people are really gonna love hearing this episode. Thank you. 

Nathan Putnam  20:34  
You're welcome. Thanks for having me, 

Deborah Niemann  20:37  
And that's it for today's show. If you haven't already done so be sure to hit the subscribe button so that you don't miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit For the love of goats.com and you can follow us on https://www.facebook.com/LoveGoatsPodcast/.  See you again next time. Bye for now you.