Goat Packing and Public Lands: How NAPgA Keeps the Trails Open

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Description

In this episode, Deborah Niemann is joined by Chris Gifford, president of the North American Packgoat Association (NAPgA), to talk about the growing challenges that pack goat owners face when it comes to accessing public lands.

Chris explains what goat packing is, how it works, and why goats make excellent trail companions. He also shares the history of NAPgA and its advocacy efforts to keep public lands open to pack goat users in the face of increasing restrictions—most of which stem from unproven concerns about disease transmission between goats and wild bighorn sheep.

If you’ve ever wanted to take your goats hiking or are curious about the barriers pack goat users face, this episode offers both inspiration and insight into an issue that affects animal lovers, hikers, and land use advocates alike.

What You’ll Learn:

• What goat packing is and how it works on the trail
• How Chris got involved in goat packing and NAPgA
• Why some public lands are closed to pack goats—and what the science does not say
• How to find out if a specific public land is open to pack goat use
• What NAPgA is doing to protect access to public lands
• The differences between pack goats and domestic sheep, and why that matters
• Where goat packing as a sport is headed in the future
  
  

Resources Mentioned:

• North American Packgoat Association (NAPgA)
• NAPgA Facebook Page
• Mycoplasma In Goats - podcast episode

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Transcript

Intro  0:03  
For the love of goats, we are talking about everything goat, whether you're a goat owner, a breeder or just a fan of these wonderful creatures. We've got you covered. And now here is Deborah Niemann.

Deborah Niemann  0:18  
Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode. We are joined today by Chris Gifford, who is the president of the North American Packgoat Association, and we're going to be talking about public lands and backcountry pack goating. So welcome to the show today, Chris. 

Chris Gifford  0:37  
Thank you, Deborah, thank you for having me on. 

Deborah Niemann  0:39  
Yeah, this is going to be one of those really fun episodes, because there's, like, nothing serious about, you know, your sick goat or anything like that. It's, this is all fun stuff. So let's start off with you telling us, like, what exactly is goat packing, and how did you get involved in it?

Chris Gifford  0:58  
So goat packing is pretty self explanatory in the sense that the goats are fitted with a crossbuck-type saddle and panniers bags that fit on the saddle the crossbuck and folks use goat pack goats to haul hiking, camping, fishing gear into the back country. Typically, it's very common among hunters, but we see a lot of people that are just doing day hikes and things like that, and just taking the burden off of themselves a little bit and giving their goats a job, which they actually love, and they love being out on the trail, being able to have a little bit of freedom, but still being under direct observation and control of their human companions, and just experiencing the outdoors. 

Chris Gifford  1:38  
So and I got into goat packing back in 2018-19, I'm a hunter, and I got into goats, basically for that purpose, to have them help me with packing. Then shortly thereafter, I heard about, well actually, I heard about NAPgA before I even got my own goats, and then started to get involved more with the organization in 2019 2020 made a bunch of friends and fellow goat packing friends through NAPgA, and started listening in on the board meetings and got more involved. Got involved with the UC research committee that we have established where we're doing a citizen science urinary calculi research study, and eventually became a board member and then president of NAPgA.

Deborah Niemann  2:25  
Cool and so how exactly did NAPgA get started, and why?

Chris Gifford  2:29  
Actually, this year, we're celebrating the 25th anniversary of NAPgA. It was started in 1999 by a small group of dedicated goat packers, Carolyn Eddie and some others who Carolyn's now passed away, we wanted to be start educating people about the responsible use of pack goats in the backcountry, how to take care of your animals, and proper fitting and proper equipment so that they're not injured or they can get saddle sores and things like that. So we wanted to make sure that people had a resource for just how to go about doing this the correct way. And so again, that happened in 1999, a small group of people got together and formed NAPgA, and it's just been kept on going on since then, and it's an all volunteer organization, and we just try and continue to educate people about how to use their pack goats in a responsible manner. And we have become, somewhat, as we're going to talk about later, of an advocate for keeping public lands open to pack goat users.

Deborah Niemann  3:30  
Awesome. A lot of people are probably thinking that like, oh, I can't do this because I don't have 100 acres or 1000 acres or whatever. And so you did mention goat packing into the back country, which includes public lands. So can you talk a little bit about why that is becoming a challenge?

Chris Gifford  3:49  
Yeah, so for many years, actually, access to public lands for goat packers has been a challenge due to the risk of disease transmission between pack goats and bighorn sheep, primarily because bighorn sheep experience large all age herd die offs from sometimes unknown reasons. But they think they've identified one particular pathogen, mycoplasma ovipneumoniae, that may be the source of most or all, even not all, because there's other reasons why they I often we're learning more and more about that what those other causes are. But land managers, the Wild Sheep Foundation, biologists and researchers are concerned about interaction with pack goats and bighorn sheep. 

Chris Gifford  4:31  
So mycoplasma ovipneumoniae is very common in the domestic sheep arena, and there are lots of allotments for sheep, grazing allotments on public lands. So that's common, or is believed to be a very common source of interaction between bighorn sheep and domestic sheep, which then results in the transmission of this pathogen that causes the sheep to get sick. They get pneumonia, and can pass it on from animal to animal and in different age classes and result in very, very low lamb recruitment once they're bred. That's the big is mycoplasma ovipneumoniae, risk of disease transmission in pack goats and bighorn sheep. I would want to point out that it has never been documented that a pack goat has transmitted mycoplasma, ovipneumoniae, or really, any other disease or pathogen, directly to a big horn sheep there. A lot of the science and the basis for these closures is hypothetical, or it's possible. So we're going to close down public lands to pack goat use because it could happen. However, it's never been proven that it has actually happened.

Deborah Niemann  5:36  
Okay, and so what about you know, some people might be listening and thinking, Oh, but could my goats get a disease from the bighorn sheep going out there?

Chris Gifford  5:43  
I mean, in theory, disease transmission doesn't it goes both ways, right? It doesn't just go one direction. So yes, it's possible. And in fact, in some cases, stories that some of the wildlife managers and land managers, biologists, departments of Fish and Wildlife, that type of thing have used anecdotal stories of bighorn sheep, a small group of bighorn sheep that come onto private land, into a pen that housed a few goats, and not pack goats, but goats. And basically they euthanized the bighorn sheep and tested the goats and determined that, yeah, they all had mycoplasma ovipneumoniaee, but that is not evidence that the goats transmitted the pathogen to the sheep. It's just as likely that the sheep transmitted the pathogen to the goats. There's no way to prove one way or the other where it starts.

Deborah Niemann  6:30  
Yeah, exactly. Are there some specific public lands that have already been closed to pack goats?

Chris Gifford  6:39  
There are some closures and there are some restrictions. So I live in Washington State, and in Washington, the Washington Department Fish and Wildlife, common method for these closures to occur is the land managers will often enter an emergency order that closes the land. They can do that without really any public comment or any type of process to get that accomplished, they can enter an emergency order closing the land. Now that happened in Washington, and then they followed that up with trying to make that permanent in doing so, they did go through the channels of making a public comment period and all of that thing. 

Chris Gifford  7:18  
Ultimately, they closed about three quarters of a million acres of public land that is owned by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, owned and managed, I should say, so it's a huge portion, a huge quantity, of public land in Washington that is closed at this time. There are different levels of restriction. The Shoshone National Forest was one of the first forests that had a restriction put in place, and it has a certain portions of the Shoshone are actually closed, I think, entirely to pack goat use. Other areas have a permitting process which is fairly burdensome and takes a lot of time and costs some money. I mean, it's probably, I think we've only had that I know of we've only had one group that has gone through that process. 

Chris Gifford  8:00  
in the Shoshone, because of its the nature that it's very burdensome and costly, I think it ended up costing them four or $500 multiple trips, or at least one or two trips, to have their goats inspected and get information about how to get the permit. It can be burdensome. The Nez Perce Clearwater forest, it's open to packgoat use, but it has a seasonal closure in certain areas where bighorn sheep tend to spend their winters and have their lambing period in the spring. So that kind of gives you an idea that it's not a cookie cutter one size fits all, and it's really is up to the land managers and to the public and pack goat users to try and explain and come up with a solution to this. Hopefully keeps public land access open, to pack goat use, okay?

Deborah Niemann  8:46  
So if somebody was thinking of going to a specific piece of public land with their goats, is there a place that they can check to make sure that it's okay?

Chris Gifford  8:57  
We always, always, always recommend that you identify who the land manager is, the place that you want to go into with your goats, and that you contact that land manager directly and ask the question. NAPgA does have on its website a spreadsheet where we are trying to as more of a courtesy. It is not, and I want to be very clear that it's not a cut and dry 100% we don't guarantee it's accurate and up to date all the time, but we just try and provide information about the areas that we know about that have restrictions so that people can kind of get an idea, and if you know they still need to follow up and double check our information by calling the land manager. But we've tried to identify the ones that we know about and just kind of give people a heads up that way, but still tell them you need to double check with the land manager if you have any questions.

Deborah Niemann  9:45  
Okay, how is NAPgA advocating on behalf of pack goat owners with this situation?

Chris Gifford  9:52  
Yeah, most of these land issues come up during forest plan revision processes, which we have we were involved in the Nez Perce Clearwater and the Grand Mesa and compadre and Gunnison, which recently, well within the last year or so, updated their forest plans. The Gila National Forest is getting ready to finalize their plan. And then we've got the Blue Mountains Aloha national forest and the Bridger Teton that we, that I can identify right off the bat, that are all in some stage of the forest planning process, the revision process. So what happens is, is we try to keep the public aware. Pack goat users through our Facebook page, emails and whatever social media that we can that these forest plan revisions are underway, and ask them to make public comments in support of pack goat use on public lands, because that's the way that we can show public we're keeping that right available to us. 

Chris Gifford  10:48  
And then I always, as the President and Board member, try to always submit public comments as well, and we become interested parties in the planning process. And I appear at the public comment period, where they allow online, virtual testimony, I guess you'd call it. And then as you get towards the end of the process, they have a objection review period. And again, we maintain our standing as an interested party, and I appear in those as the president, and make sure that we advocate for keeping public lands open. It's quite a process. And, yeah, it's a challenge.

Deborah Niemann  11:25  
Is there any upcoming legislation or anything like that that is going to affect pack goats on public lands?

Chris Gifford  11:32  
Maybe one of the biggest ones, as you know, with the new election in back in November, there was a lot of turmoil in the forest service with, you know, layoffs and things like that, which, at least for a while, made things really unclear as far as what the planning process might look like because of reduced staff and things like that. But I'm not aware of, like I said, any legislation per se, it's just the forest plan revisions that are that are going on that we need to stay on top of. Keep the public involved, be engaged, make public comments and appear when we can to pack goat use on public lands.

Deborah Niemann  12:07  
Okay, so where do you see the future of pack goats going, both in terms of recreation and also in terms of public lands?

Chris Gifford  12:16  
The challenge of public land access for pack goats is it's not going to change. We are going to have challenges going forward, just like we have for the last, you know, 10 or 15 years. I hope that we get a little bit better science out there, and that we get a little bit more understanding by the public of the limitations of what information is being relied upon right now by the land managers and biologists and things like that, to close public lands to pack goat use because there are still very, very significant questions about the accuracy. There's never been a risk assessment done on pack goats specifically and what the risk of disease transmission actually is, which is very concerning to us, because, you know, public lands are intended for everybody and to be managed for everybody, and all user groups equally. 

Chris Gifford  13:11  
And what has been done, in large part, is we've been lumped in with those domestic sheep who have a high prevalence of mycoplasma ovipneumoniaee infection rates, and then they're also, you know, these grazing allotments are two or three, 400 up to 1000 head of domestic sheep left largely unattended on public lands to graze and roam around on their own, whereas pack goats are typically used in numbers between four and 10 animals at a time, they're bonded to their humans. I mean, they're like big dogs, and a lot of them know their names. They come when they're called, they see us as their herd leader. So when they're startled or frightened, they come to us, and they'll actually huddle around you and look to you for protection. They don't typically run off. So it's just a whole different ball game. 



Chris Gifford  14:02  
We're getting lumped in with those domestic sheep, and then restrictions are being put on pack goat use when the actual risk, as evidenced by the fact that it's never been proven that a pack goat has been responsible for disease transmission to bighorn sheep, it's just, we feel it's very unfair and not justified, that science really isn't there to support it. Basically, what's being used in support of this is, well, we know that it's possible from a couple of studies in captivity, where they put bighorn sheep and goats together, where they've introduced the pathogen that they've transmitted it to bighorn sheep. So it's possible, if it's possible at all, we want zero risk. Even though they say they know they can't manage for zero risk, they close the land down, and it's just, it's really frustrating and unfortunate for people who want to access public lands. And yeah. 

Chris Gifford  14:53  
So as far as where pack goating is going, I think it's a growing sport. I think it's started in modern goat packing started, probably in 1970 early 1970s with John Myansinsky, who was doing bighorn sheep research, of all things. You know, he was taking his goats out. He had horses and mules, but he couldn't get to where the sheep were living. So he decided he had a goat at home. I wonder if it can pack something. So he built homemade saddle and tested it out, and started taking his goats out, right up, living with bighorn sheep for weeks at a time. You know, it's just interesting where we've come from, where we are now, and we're having to fight this battle. And I want to stress that goat packers are, you know, we're outdoors people. We love the outdoors, we love wildlife and we love bighorn sheep, but we want this to be science based, if we're going to be shut out, and we'll even tolerate, you know, like, some of the seasonal closures, if that's the best thing. But there needs to be a scientific basis for what they're trying to do, blocking this out.

Deborah Niemann  15:51  
Yeah, exactly. We've got an episode that we did a couple years ago on mycoplasma. It's kind of a tricky disease, which is why some people might be thinking like, oh, we'll just test all of the goats to make sure they're all negative for mycoplasma. And unfortunately, it's not quite that easy. So if you want to know more about mycoplasma, go back and listen to that episode. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. But that doesn't mean that you can't do any research. I mean, you absolutely can do research on this to try and make a more scientifically based decision, rather than just saying, Oh, this is possible, so we're not going to allow you to have goats on our land.

Chris Gifford  16:31  
Yeah. I mean, we won't go need to get into mycoplasma specifically, because that's a whole another topic but the research on it and stuff. But even in those research projects that where they put them together and and which they rely upon. You know, this bighorn sheep that were penned with goats and then had introduced actually began to recover. The evidence actually shows that goat strain, mycoplasma ovipneumoniaee, is less lethal, and maybe not even lethal to bighorn sheep, a healthy bighorn sheep, otherwise, any sheep can get pneumonia and pass away of but yeah, it's just the research isn't quite as cut and dry as they might have.

Deborah Niemann  17:09  
Yeah, that makes sense, too, when you're transmitting between species, that brings in a whole nother level of complexity, because a lot of diseases really are species specific. And even if another species does get it, it's usually not that bad. So, yeah, more research in that area certainly sounds like it is warranted. Is there anything else that people need to know about this that we haven't talked about yet?

Chris Gifford  17:38  
I can't think of anything. I mean, there's lots to learn about the issues, both mycoplasma ovipneumoniae and other diseases that potentially could be transmitted. And then on the public land use side, you know, we just encourage people to visit our website. You know, there's information there, and past responses to some of the major Forest Plan revisions and how we address those. And then, yeah, just be involved. That's the biggest thing. And we would encourage people and the public to become a little bit knowledgeable about this and support, you know, goat packing on public lands, based on the fact that, you know, there is a lack of reliable science to support this.

Deborah Niemann  18:14  
Yeah. So if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about this topic of public lands or just goat packing in general. How can they find you online?

Chris Gifford  18:24  
So our Facebook page, we have the North American Packgoat Association discussion group on Facebook that's the most active or up to date place to discuss these types of topics. And then, of course, we have our website, which is napga.org on there. We have our, you know, our officers and directors and my contact information as well as our info@napga.org email address, and you can reach out to us there anytime, and one of us will get back to you.

Deborah Niemann  18:48  
Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Chris Gifford
Thank you. 

Deborah Niemann
And that's it for today's show. If you haven't already done so, be sure to hit the subscribe button so that you don't miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit ForTheLoveOfGoats.com and you can follow us on Facebook at facebook.com/lovegoatspodcast. See you again next time. Bye for now you.