When a Goat Needs a C-Section

Got a question? 🤔 

Head over to -- https://thriftyhomesteader.com/when-a-goat-needs-a-c-section/ -- and drop it in the comments—so we can reply! 

Description

In this episode, Deborah Niemann is joined by Dr. Melissa Holahan, a veterinarian and experienced goat breeder, to tackle one of the most anxiety-provoking topics in goat keeping: C-sections and difficult births.

Together, they walk through what actually happens when a goat needs surgical intervention during labor, why panic and delay often cause more harm than transport to a veterinarian, and how healthy does can tolerate long labors far better than most owners realize. Dr. Holahan explains the real reasons goats need C-sections, including malpositioned or tangled kids, immature does, malformed kids, and true failure to dilate — while also clearing up common misconceptions about labor timelines.

The conversation also covers how to recognize true emergencies like pregnancy toxemia and hypocalcemia, why nutrition in late gestation plays such a critical role in preventing complications, and what goat owners should expect before, during, and after a C-section. From anesthesia options to post-surgical care, herd management, and future breeding decisions, this episode provides practical, experience-based guidance grounded in veterinary medicine.

If you’ve ever worried that your goat “wouldn’t survive the trip to the vet,” felt unsure about when to intervene during labor, or wondered whether a doe can safely be bred again after a C-section, this episode will help you replace fear with clarity and confidence.

Thanks for tuning in!

If you’d like to support the content you love and help us keep bringing you new goat resources, you can do that through our Tip Jar.

No one ever said raising goats was easy, but it doesn't have to cost a fortune or drive you crazy! You just need the right information.

🔹 Check out Goats 365 membership

🔹 Or explore The Goat Academy

🔹Looking for Deborah's books? They can be purchased wherever books are sold, or you can get an autographed copy on our online store.

Happy goat-keeping! 🐐

Transcript

Intro  0:00 
For the love of goats, we are talking about everything goat, whether you're a goat owner, a breeder or just a fan of these wonderful creatures. We've got you covered. And now here's Deborah Niemann.

Deborah Niemann  0:16 
Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode. I really hope and believe that this episode is going to be very helpful for so many people, and if not for you personally, perhaps for people that you mentor, because we're going to be talking about C-sections, and I know there is a lot of fear around goats just dropping dead in the middle of labor. And so one of the things that we're hoping to get across today is the fact that that's really not something that you have to worry about.

Deborah Niemann  0:46 
And we're joined again by Dr Melissa Holahan, who is a goat breeder and a veterinarian in private practice. Her private practice is Caprine and Ewe. And she raises Nigerian dwarfs under the herd name Chubb E Acres. Welcome to the show again. Dr Melissa.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  1:06 
Hi Deborah, thank you again for inviting me and a very timely topic, as we enter into kidding season for most and I think that it's always a very, very stressful time of year, especially for people, even if it isn't your first time having goat kids, it can be a little bit nerve wracking as you're waiting for those kids, exciting, but also nerve wracking. So I think it's great for us to talk about this topic while it's timely.

Deborah Niemann  1:30 
Yeah, exactly. And I know one of the things that just about sends me through the roof every time I see it is on social media or YouTube, people saying, "My goat never would have survived a trip to the vet", and that's why they're on Facebook or whatever, asking for help and getting 10 different opinions on what to do and sometimes making the wrong decision.

Deborah Niemann  1:53 
Let's start by talking about the fact that if your goat really is in trouble and needs a C-section or some serious veterinary assistance, that the goat is going to survive as long as she does not have toxemia or hypocalcemia, in which case you should have got your vet involved before the goat got this far along. But you just talk a little bit about that, about, you know, how does a healthy goat handle labor?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  2:18 
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of differences, and every goat can react differently while they're in active labor. So I think having a goat mentor and being able to watch multiple can be very helpful before you see your first but my good rule of thumb is kind of like the 30 minute rule. So if I have a doe that is down and hard, pushing for 30 minutes with no kid being produced, that's typically a sign for me to either call my veterinarian, call a goat mentor, and you know, it's time to kind of maybe go in and take a look.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  2:50 
But I also set another timer that once we go in and we are trying to determine whether or not we can get these kids out safely, and whether or not the kids need to be pulled even if your veterinarian is there, it's something that we do because we lose track of time sometimes when we have a whole team involved is we set another timer for 30 minutes, and if, within 30 minutes, doesn't matter how many people are trying, if we can't get those kids out, that is the time where I say we need to have a plan B. We need to have either a van or a truck bed or somebody with a trailer. I have seen a lot of especially even standard breeds, being put in the back of SUVs with tarps and blankets and having a plan to get them to the nearest veterinarian, even if that is a university.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  3:28 
And when I first started out 10 years ago breeding, I wasn't comfortable doing my own C-sections. They were my babies. I was in mom mode, and I actually had personal experience where I couldn't get the kids out. I called my veterinarian colleague and said, "Hey, can you come over and try?" I think I'm going to have to go to Michigan State for a C-section. She came over, set a timer for 20 minutes because I had already tried. Couldn't get the kids out, and we had to load everybody up. I gave a dose of pain medication. So I think that's really important calming everybody down, because high anxiety, everybody's really worried, right?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  4:13 
And by the time we did all of that and got to Michigan State, it had been four hours. Something strange happens, though, once you get those goats in the car, and I think it's worth mentioning is they kind of go silent, and a lot of that is just the inertia of kidding and contractions and everything just starts to kind of slow, especially when you change their environment, and they typically stop laboring, pretty common, especially if things are going wrong. We can't get the kids out, and it took about four hours from the time labor started, I should say, from the time we went in, and from the time I got to Michigan State.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  4:48 
And I still, even after the clock that was set at Michigan State to get the IV catheter in, get fluids going, get the DVMs ready for surgery, I still had three healthy triplets, all doe kids from that experience. And I think I use that as an example, because I got to experience firsthand as well. What I think most clients, most farmers and breeders, are worried about, is that their animals not going to survive the transport and or the kids are all going to be dead. And I think that the faster you can make that decision, having a plan in place and getting them somewhere, the more likely you actually are going to be that you have kids alive, especially if they are still attached to the umbilical cord.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  5:31 
Moms still having oxygen exchange for them, and they're still probably pretty happy, because whatever is blocking usually a buck, potentially, that might be the kid that we lose, right? But we might have already lost that kid regardless, but the other ones behind that kid, you could still have completely normal, healthy kids. I have had many experiences where the kid that is stuck actually survives as well, and you know, the whole team is surprised. So I think, you know, just taking that moment and not being afraid to have a plan B,

Deborah Niemann  6:00 
Yeah. We live two hours from the University of Illinois, and for most of my 24 years of raising goats, I have not had a local vet that could do a C-section, and so I've had three goats that needed C-sections and two goats that just had dystocias that we could not fix, and they were pulled once we got there. So that's five goats that we took to the university, and they all did fine, you know, the does did well with that. We got them there. The kids were delivered. If the kids were viable, when I left the farm, the kids were delivered alive.

Deborah Niemann  6:37 
And I say that because we had a schistosomus and we've had some mummified kids. They were not viable, you know. So they could not have survived anyway. So the longest I've heard was a lady who called me. She said, "My goat has been pushing for two hours, and I've been pulling and I can't get the kid out". And as soon as she said that, I said, "How much does the doe weigh?" And she said, "27 pounds". And I said, you have got to get that goat to a vet immediately for a C-section. There's no way that baby's coming out the normal exit. She didn't have a vet. And after you add everything, add up everything from the time that goat started pushing and the owner pulling until the time the kid was born at the University of Illinois, which is where she finally wound up driving, which was three hours away from her. The kid was alive. She sent me pictures. The head was the size of a grapefruit, but it was alive. I was shocked to see such a swollen head, but it survived. So don't need to panic.

Deborah Niemann  7:42 
You know about this, they've got plenty of time to call the vet, take the goat to a vet, and whatever. One of the things I want to talk about, like, the only time that you really have to worry about the doe's well being is in the cases of like, toxemia and hypocalcemia. And I don't want to talk about that too much, because we have entire episodes devoted to each one of those with Dr Van Saun from Penn State University, because those are nutritional diseases of pregnancy, but those do represent an emergency situation where your doe could just be dead really fast, because everything just kind of goes off. Can you talk about that briefly?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  8:20 
Yeah, I think I would back up just a little bit, because for me, kind of the timeline starts, obviously, hopefully knowing when your doe was bred, because it makes things so much easier in life — if you know that breeding date and the last month of gestation. Which for most goats is, you know, around month four pregnancy, that's when I think it's a great idea to have a goat mentor involved, or potentially the breeder that you got your original goats from, and having a relationship with a veterinarian, if you have one in the area that can come out, that's an awesome time to have them come out, evaluate, answer any questions, and think about vaccinating, right?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  8:56 
Because if we're going to boost all the vaccines, we usually want to boost her at about a month before kidding, so that the colostrum has the antibodies that we want to deliver to the kids. And it's that last month that the kids can grow pretty exponentially. So there's really no room left in the rumen for it to fully distend and for them to eat large meals throughout the day. So a lot of times in that situation, that's when we're also going to recommend increasing up their nutrition. In most cases, if we're offering hay or a mix of alfalfa and grass hay, we're probably going to start titrating up some grain. And I think the biggest myth that I hear people talk about is, oh, I don't want to give any grain because I don't want the kids to get too big. And in reality, you actually want to be able to feed some of the grain to those late gestation animals, because it's providing nutrition to the mom.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  9:50 
And yes, we want healthy size kids. We don't want small kids, but if you don't have a healthy mom going into the last month of gestation, you're not going to have healthy kids. And so that rumen isn't able to hold all the nutrition anymore, and that's where you really, actually do need some extra energy, and it typically comes from some type of grain supplement. And that can be a lot of different things. But the other thing that can be helpful is meal feeding. So instead of, maybe, if it's possible, instead of doing two feedings, or one feeding a day, trying to do three feedings a day, so that the does have a little bit more nutrition throughout the day, and that can really help. But I think watching the animals, goats, in general, right as close as possible for that last month to make sure that they're eating.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  10:30 
And I think sometimes it's a learned behavior. When you're first watching goats, they can look like I think the early, early signs for me that I try to teach all of my clients to pay attention to is put all the food down, refresh the hay, whatever you're doing to feed, and then just sit and observe even just for five minutes. You can usually tell who in the group is not acting right, because they'll typically go to the hay, they'll mouth it, but they won't really eat it, versus, I always call the hungry, hungry Hippos, right, the goats that always act like they're starving no matter what, at least my goats do.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  11:11 
And you knowing the difference between that behaviorism, because that's usually the first subtle sign that we're something's off, and maybe they are sick for another reason. But sometimes we can start to see early signs of pregnancy toxemia that way, because it's in reality, what pregnancy toxemia is is it's a negative energy balance. Their body is not meeting the energy needs that they require to sustain them and the babies that they're trying to grow. And so that's where, you know, some of the treatments come into play, because we're trying to increase the energy source, give them some glucose to get them feeling better.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  11:33 
And you really sometimes you do have to make a pretty hard and fast decision, if you have pregnancy toxemia, are we saving mom, or are we saving the kids? Because sometimes you do have to choose. And if the kids are too young to induce, they're too premature. Sometimes we have to induce so we can save mom. And that's the tough decision, you know, when we're maybe not expecting to make it.

Deborah Niemann  11:55 
Yeah, the other thing about feeding that I think messes up a lot of people is that they're not feeding alfalfa because alfalfa has twice as much protein in it as grass hay, and it also has a lot of calcium. It has the calcium that they need for growing all those babies bones. I've seen a lot of people have problems at the end because they're just feeding the goat grass hay, which unfortunately comes from cow research that people incorrectly extrapolate to goats. We go into great detail in the episode on hypocalcemia. So if you have questions about that, please listen to the episode with Dr Van Saun about the importance of feeding alfalfa the last two months of pregnancy.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  12:35 
I mean, that's a great point. And it can even be alfalfa pellets. It can be soaked alfalfa cubes. It doesn't have to be not everybody has access to great alfalfa hay. So there's a lot of ways that you can supplement that you know, in the end stages.

Deborah Niemann  12:50 
The saddest things I ever heard like this is the big danger of some of the myths floating around out there. When people talk about like, Oh, my goat was in labor for two days and stuff like this, someone contacted me a few years ago and said, My goat's been in labor for two days and she's not been eating, and it's like your goat has not been eating for two days. And she sent a short video, and it's like this goat is not in labor. This goat has toxemia. You have got to contact your vet immediately. I mean, this was such a horribly sick goat. I mean, it was just laying there, like this tiny little moan, like it was horrible, and she called her vet, and the vet immediately did a C-section. And mom did not make it, but the babies did.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  13:33 
Yeah, it's a tough call. I think one of the other tricks Deborah I'll mention, is some of these large mamas at the very end do have a more difficult time just getting around and getting up to the feeders and so making sure that there's not a ton of competition at the feed bunk. And I think one of the other things that can help is the introduction of Meloxicam, you know, having a non-steroidal, anti-inflammatory for pain management, working with your veterinarian, obviously, because it is something that is off label for goats, but it's mainly like us taking an Ibuprofen or an Aleve, right? These are the safe version for goats.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  14:10 
That would be Meloxicam, and that can sometimes really help, especially maybe an aged doe, or a doe that is carrying quads or triplets and is just having a really hard time getting around. And or you're already starting to see the early signs where we're seeing some swelling in their legs, you know, around their pasterns, so that we are trying to stay up and keeping them happy and healthy so they don't actually get to the point where they stop eating, you know, just trying to keep it easy for them to be getting up and getting around and moving.

Deborah Niemann  14:39 
So for the rest of our discussion today, we are going to assume that we have healthy goats. They do not have toxemia. Do not have hypocalcemia. They are completely healthy, so they are not going to suddenly drop dead on us. I think probably the main reason that people wind up needing a C-section is because the kid is not coming out for some reason. Either it is too big or it's malformed in a position, like, it's just a Schistosomus it's like in a V shape, or conjoined twins, just anything like that, where the kid is in a position. And that's where you talked about, like, you try for 30 minutes, and if you cannot get that kid in a position to get it out, it's time to ask someone else to help you. Can you talk about that a little bit.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  15:27 
Yeah, I think one of the things, not only setting the timer for 30 minutes, but one thing I think is very difficult sometimes to remember to do, is to just stay calm. It is a stressful situation. I mean, I've been there with my own does, but it doesn't have to be a speedy process. I think that's one of the mistakes I see, is people try to go in really quickly, and I often have to talk through what I'm doing when I get to a farm, because I will close my eyes often because I'm trying to figure out where I'm at and what I'm feeling. My eyes are not going to help me in this situation, because it's a feel game.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  16:01 
The other thing I do is I go in very slowly. A lot of the clients I have in Michigan are Nigerian dwarf clients, probably 70% of them, right? So I'm not trying to force my hand in. I'm trying to work with the doe. I'm trying to work in between contractions. I'm trying to not work against them. So I always warn people when you are trying to go in, and if I'm trying to talk them through it over the phone, to just go nice and easy and slow. Again, Deborah, like you said, you have time. It's not a speed game. It's taking your time. Because when you start to go fast, when you can get cervical tears, you can get uterine tears very easily. And when you start to go fast, you start to just pull kids, I can't tell you, many times, people just grab a hoof and they just start pulling. That's the worst thing you can really do, because when you pull, you have no idea what you're pulling. Is it a hoof of one kid? Do you have two different hoofs of two different kids that you're trying to pull? Is it the back feet, or is it the front feet? That can be really helpful to tell which ones you're pulling.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  17:04 
And so I don't do anything until I know exactly my plan for exiting this kid, out of the cervix, out of the pelvis, until I know exactly where I'm at and then I work with the doe to pull with contractions, because sometimes I have to pause for a second. When you look at natural birth, they pause. It's, you know, it's nerve wracking, but they pause, right? You see that really big, nice, you know, people call it a water sack. So, you know, terminology might say the big water sack. And that water sack is actually dilating the cervix. And as things are progressing, and then you'll see it sometimes go in just a little bit. And then the next push, you'll see a little bit more of the kid, right? Very rarely, although we do have the torpedo kids that come out, very rarely do you see the kid come out all in one big push. It's often multiple pushes. And that's actually, scientifically, a good thing for them as well.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  17:53 
When you pull a kid too fast, and often when you pull a kid, you can have a much higher risk of what we call dummy kids. And dummy kids are where the kid made it through the birth canal so fast that it didn't have the neural stimulus of the brain to that momentary lack of oxygen when switches over and has to start breathing on its own. And that actually is what stimulates the brain to wake up and start to thrive, and the neuro stimulus to get up and start nursing. And so keeping that in mind too when we're pulling kids, but pretty quickly, I think most people, even with very limited experience, especially if you have a goat mentor on the phone or your veterinarian on the phone, you can tell.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  18:33 
If my fist can go in, most goat kid heads can come out, and especially when we're talking about Nigerians, right? So if I can't get a goat head out, even if it's with a Kelly kid puller, which we can talk a little bit more about, I know pretty quickly if that kids coming out through the pelvis or not, and if it's not, and you can't figure it out, or the you know, you've got a twist of kids in there, there are some things you can do. And again, I'd still have a timer set, but you can walk the doe sometimes, just trying to get the doe moving. Take her on a short walk, put a hay bale up underneath the pelvis to just kind of elevate. And sometimes that'll shift kids around for a minute, and then a kid that was supposed to come first decides to come first, and they don't try to come together. That can be very helpful.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  19:17 
Sometimes, actually pushing up on the belly to try to help get the kids out or reposition the kids can be helpful. Sometimes, having somebody pushed in the rectum to try to help pull a kid out can be helpful. So there's a lot of little tricks. But again, the worst thing you can do is try for two hours and have multiple people try for two hours, because then, most certainly, you know, the doe is now at more risk because you've been trying for two hours. Give that doe a rest, give her some pain meds, and get her in the car to get her somewhere that can have get a C-section.

Deborah Niemann  19:47 
Yeah. And speaking of that trip to the vet, I don't have the benefit of having pain meds at my house. And so, because some people may be going, oh, well, the doe is quiet because you gave her pain meds. Every single goat that I have put in my car to take to the vet, her labor just completely stops. I mean, we I was not listening to a goat scream for two hours on that drive. In fact, the first couple times, they were so quiet, I was like, "Oh my gosh, did she die", you know? And I'm like, listening so carefully, like, Oh, "I think I just heard a hoof hit the side of the dog crate", you know, in the back of my SUV. Labor does just completely stop when you stick them in your car. So that's the other thing too.

Deborah Niemann  20:28 
Like when somebody says, like the 30 minute thing, I wanted to mention that, because just like, a week ago, somebody told me she's like my doe was pushing for three hours before I decided to check her. She was I know they say you're only supposed to wait 30 minutes, but I waited for three hours, and then I checked her, and her cervix wasn't open, and it was like, Okay, if her cervix was not open, then she was not when people say pushing, they're talking about second stage labor. If the cervix is not open, that's still first stage labor. And so she's still working on dilating, and what you're seeing is not pushing, is just contractions.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  21:06 
I think sometimes that's hard to I don't teach. Maybe isn't the right word, but prepare people for Yeah, because there are so many different first stage signs and some does, like I'll have does that are eating right up until they lay down and push their kids out. And the biggest thing I tell people is, I had, thank God I have cameras now, because it's like, they know that mom is a veterinarian, and they know that I'm watching, and I can literally go down, and they will be in stage two, hard pushing. And if I don't have a kid present, like coming out, head out, you know, hooves out, they'll just be like, I'm fine. Nothing to see here.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  21:44 
So I'll have people, even if they're watching and they're at my farm, I'll have them hide in my dairy room and just kind of no lights on anything will sneak in until I can see ahead on the cameras, because I'll have does that will just literally stop labor, because there's people there. So I think that first stage the pawing is a big one, not separating them from the herd, because I've had that before, if you can, you know, separate them, try to keep them with the herd as much as possible, because I've had clients end up at Michigan State because they thought there was something wrong with their doe, and it was because she was climbing the walls, going insane, because they had separated her from the herd, and they thought something was wrong with her, but she just, they're herd bound, right?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  22:27 
So trying to keep them, and even if you need to separate them, separate them so they can see their herd mates, so that they're not completely isolated. But pawing, they can be up, down, up, down, like they are trying to go into labor. But that's all still, I feel like first stage. I think it's pretty obvious when we start to actually see contractions, most of the time, you've got the legs out to the side, you've got a back leg splayed out. And when you watch the belly, you can see contraction. So that, to me, is the stage where, again, usually there's some mucus. There's a mucus plug, you know, and we'll start to see a lot more discharge, even before we start to see the kids presenting. So I think those are the things to watch for.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  23:07 
But I have seen many people think that the cervix isn't dilated and that they have what is called a ring womb where the cervix actually, truly isn't dilating, and the medical diagnosis of that is that there's a failure to dilate. But a lot of people intervene too quickly, and they think that, like you just said, that the cervix hasn't dilated yet, but they just haven't given the doe enough time to progress through the natural stages of labor, which is where I think phones are great, because we can video that. And I tell people like not to be, you know, graphic, but I tell people like, video the back end of the goat so I can see what is happening and send me the video. Because oftentimes, with experience, we can say, nope, she's, you know, still in stage one, you know, I'm not seeing anything. Versus, oh yeah, she's definitely hard pushing. How long has she been doing that? And that really helps to know whether or not we need to come out.

Deborah Niemann  23:59 
Do you think we've covered all this stuff on reasons for C-section?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  24:03 
I think the biggest ones for me are tangled up kids, you know, two kids presenting at the same time, I think is one of the more common ones that I see for reasons for C-section. And I think one of the things that breeders, or maybe people that don't have enough experience, are nervous about, is actually pushing kids back in. And I can't tell you how many times for me to correct something and pull kids out. I often have to get up to my elbow, even in Nigerians, and I have to gently push a kid off to the lower left or lower right so that I can work on getting the other kid out.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  24:38 
And so I think that's where taking your time, closing your eyes, really trying to figure out, okay, what am I feeling? Is this the same kid? Or is this a different kid? And, you know, being okay with pushing a kid back in, I think the only time you have to be kind of quick about pushing a kid back in is if you have what I call a hung kid, where they're just trying to come out head first, and a lot of times the cervix is choking them, or appears like It's choking them every time they have a contraction, and you can't get him out. Tricks for that one that I find have work is, I will, you know, like the old school, when you scruff a cat from the back of the neck, if you can get enough of the head out that you can kind of dry it off so you can actually grab it with your hands, and it's not slimy. I've actually gotten kids out that way by just scruffing them and kind of gently pulling them with traction. But the only time you have to be quick about it is if you have to push that kid back in to get a front leg, you got to work that pretty quickly, because most of those kids are already gasping and taking breath, and you're putting them back into the liquid uterus real quick to pull them out.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  25:35 
But other than that, I feel like you've got a lot of times. You've got time to figure out where the kids are and how to get them out. So I would say multiple kids is probably the most common. Unfortunately, the one that you already mentioned, the young or immature does that have been accidentally bred by a buck kid. You know, a lot of times I feel like that's the one I see when they didn't realize that the brother would breed the sister, or the brother or the son would breed the mom. And Nigerians are little buggers. I just had one happen in October. At nine weeks of age, he bred his sister and she had a kid at seven months of age, which, as a Nigerian, you know, that's a pretty small goat, and ideally you don't want them to be that immature when they have their first kids. So I think that's another big one.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  26:19 
And then the one you've had unfortunate personal experience with is malformed kid. And there can be a lot of different ones. I actually this past summer, had Dorper lambs. It was a two headed lamb, which I've only seen twice in my life, but literally, it was a perfectly formed lamb with a split tail and split heads, and the rest of it was a shared body. So obviously, that's usually not going to come out normal, but I think those are the big ones. Failure to dilate, I think oftentimes, is us just not taking a breath and maybe calling a mentor, or somebody that has a little more bit more experience, sharing a video of what the doe is doing before we start going in and trying to manually dilate them.

Deborah Niemann  26:56 
Because one thing I think, with that is that a lot of people don't understand that they can tear the cervix and or the uterus and the doe could bleed to death. And I know this happens, and people don't realize it, because they think, Oh, I didn't see any blood, not realizing that goats are horizontal creatures, and gravity puts the blood into their abdomen, not out the exit. So I had a goat that died from a very large uterine tear, and it was after the vet had, like, untangled five kids. We've had eight sets of quintuplets, and only ever had one set that got tangled. She had this large uterine tear afterwards. And when she said that the necropsy showed a uterine tear, I was like, but I never saw any blood. And that was when I learned, like, oh, yeah, you don't usually with goats, because they're not upright like us.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  27:48 
I think that can be something that's difficult to diagnose sometimes, too, when I have to pull kids, I always go in and do a final sweep, because two reasons, you'll be surprised sometimes how far down a kid can be hiding, and most of the time, the rule of thumb for me, if I have to pull one kid, I usually end up having to pull the rest. I might give the doe a break for a minute, because it's not easy for them to have kids pulled, but I'm usually ending up having to pull all of the kids, and there can often be a kid hiding, because natural labor, each of the kids presenting to the uterus is what continues, or to the pelvis is what continues the uterine contractions.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  28:24 
And if you don't have that labor just kind of stalls, because the kids are just sitting down in the abdomen, in the uterus, and there's nothing to kind of expel them out. So I do a final sweep for that reason, but also to check for any uterine tears. And sometimes you can feel some pretty big ones. And it can also happen from their hooves, even though they're normally very soft. If you've got multiple kids in there and you're trying to pull them out, sometimes it can be pretty friable, meaning that the uterus can tear pretty easily. And so always, while you want to go in, try not to have any rings on during kidding season, or at least remembering to take them off if you have to go in, making sure you have short nails and making sure you use plenty of lubrication when you go in.

Deborah Niemann  29:05 
So the only thing that I really have absolutely no experience with whatsoever is uterine torsion. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  29:12 
Yeah. So a uterine torsion can happen spontaneously, but it can also happen because of malposition kids and potentially, you know, multiple people, or even just one person going in and trying to reposition, you can accidentally twist the uterus. I think the biggest thing that I normally see with that is an acute change in their pain. Most of the time, those animals are severely painful, to the point where I've even seen them alligator rolling like literally rolling in pain, and have not been able to. Even with like Banamine and trying to get traditional pain meds on board, have them actually settle out. I've had some where I've had to do epidurals to try to get them to settle and some sedation to try to get them to settle. But that's probably the biggest one.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  30:00 
The other thing is it can sometimes, if it's happened spontaneously, your veterinarian can feel it when they go in. You can actually feel the twist, because you can't get progression. You might be able to get past the cervix, but you can't get down into the uterus, and the uterus is a Y shape, right when you visualize what it looks like, you should be able to go into the dilated cervix, and you should be able to go down to the left and then kind of gently sweep and go down to the right, and if you have a uterine torsion, especially if it's 360 like a full, you're not going to be able to advance your hand at all. So typically, it's at home. If you're the breeder and you're the one where it's your goat, a lot of times it's severely painful, and it's an abrupt change in their pain response. If you have a veterinarian or an experienced goat mentor, there are some times where you can actually palpate it.

Deborah Niemann  30:52 
So let's say that someone realizes that their goat needs a C-section. Can you tell us what they should expect at that point, like once you and your vet have decided that a C-section is required, how does that progress?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  31:06 
Yeah, so my recommendation for my clients is typically have a transport system in place even before kidding season, so that you have a plan on how you're going to get those animals to the hospital or to a university or potentially to your farm vet. Because even for me, if they're close enough, I'd much prefer to do it in my surgical suite, which is going to be a much cleaner environment. Oftentimes it's a temperature controlled environment, so it's nicer for all of us involved, and it's cleaner for the doe versus doing it on the farm.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  31:40 
I'll do kind of like the transport first, then we can talk about on the farm. If you're transporting them, have a plan for transport, I recommend, usually tarps, old blankets, just things like that that you could just have in the garage ready to go. If they already have a kid for some reason, on the ground, and number two or three is stuck, bring the kid with them. It can often keep them calm, keep them focused on trying to clean that kid and bond with that kid. And then, if you have a relationship with your veterinarian, and they do recommend giving pain meds. Sometimes just a single dose of Banamine can really help to just keep them a little bit more comfortable ea emergencyn route to the veterinary clinic.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  32:16 
And then the other thing they usually recommend is if you already have colostrum stored that's one thing, I think, even as a veterinarian, that sometimes in the heat of the moment, you forget, but if you already have some colostrum stored up from previous kidding seasons, bring that on a pack of ice, because kids being born, you may not be able to get to the doe to get colostrum, or she may not have appropriate let down if she's gone through a C-section, and then you can start getting colostrum into those kids that are born once they're warmed up. So I think that's helpful when you have to go to a veterinary facility for C-section.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  32:51 
If you're on the farm and your veterinarian is coming out and they provide on farm surgery. I think for me, the things that are very helpful when we're en route to get there is a couple things, trying to find the cleanest environment you have on your farm. Straw can be, honestly, very helpful in those situations. If you put down a, you know, break open a new bale of straw and just rebed the whole area so you've got a cleaner environment, a bale of straw can be really helpful for propping the doe up, using it as an area to put all the surgical instruments, those type of things can be helpful having some blankets, having some towels, having just kind of like a, I always call it like the neonatal ICU center, so you've got a warming station ready, or a hair dryer or something for people to accept kids during the C-section that can all be prepped as the veterinarians driving to your farm.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  33:43 
And then the other thing that I've had clients that you know are comfortable doing it is shaving them, giving them the go ahead to shave the whole side so that they're ready to go when we get there, and we only maybe have to do it just a quick surgical prep. Those can all be things that just kind of help things move forward and move along. Think those are the big ones, but I think even those little steps can help to have everybody prepared, and it also helps to focus your energy a little bit more, instead of like, even if your vet's 15-20 minutes away, can feel like two hours right when you're just waiting.

Deborah Niemann  34:14 
Yeah. Now I think the first C-section we had was probably 17 or 18 years ago, and it was at the University, and they did general anesthesia, but we had, like, a dedicated anesthesiologist there, and then the second one was an epidural, and then the last one was some type of like regional, local block. It never occurred to me to ask why the different types of anesthesia were chosen. But can you talk about that?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  34:43 
Yeah, I think a lot of times it. Is accessibility and location of where the C-section is happening. Most of the time when you're on the farm, for obvious reasons, the only options typically are going to be a regional block or an epidural. A regional block is quite literally what it sounds like you're blocking a region, and it's typically going to be the side of the doe where we're making the incision that's going to be the most painful portion of the surgery itself is the skin and the muscles. Muscles actually can be pretty uncomfortable when we cut through them. So when we're doing a regional block, we're actually numbing a lot of times it's lidocaine and or lidocaine and bupivacaine, we're numbing that whole entire area for a short period of time, but a short enough period of time where we can get in and get out pretty quickly and get through that initial pain area.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  35:35 
An epidural is nice because it actually blocks the whole kind of caudal end of the back end, I should say, of the goat. And so in doing that, that also provides another layer of anesthesia, in some cases, a little bit better anesthesia if you get a good epidural, because it is more thoroughly blocking the internal structures as well. So that sometimes a combination of those can happen. It just depends on what the veterinarian is most comfortable doing, too. If I have an animal that's coming to my facility, a lot of times we'll do combination of an epidural, we'll do a pre medication, which is a light sedation that just kind of helps take the edge off of the goat, but not necessarily affect the kids, because anything you're giving the mom at that point is being, you know, directly transferred to the kids in general anesthesia. You have pros and cons.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  36:28 
General anesthesia, if you have a good team that knows what they're doing, it can be very, very quick to get them under and get the kids out. But the downside of general anesthesia is the kids are going to absorb some of that anesthesia, and so a lot of times before I even start the C-section, I have my entire little neonatal area set up. And with that area, I have a medication called Naloxone, which is a reversal medication. And some people may use different meds, but we use, typically, Naloxone to reverse any of the anesthesia drugs that we might have given mom, we give that directly to the kids, that tends to help wake them up.

Deborah Niemann  37:06 
And then what should owners expect within the first 24 hours after surgery,

Dr. Melissa Holahan  37:10 
One of the big things, I think that can be very helpful, is having the kids with mom. You know, whether it's a sheep or goat, I think it really actually helps motivate them. I personally had one of my own Alpine goats have I had quads, and the first one would not let me release all the rest of the hostages, and had them all twisted up. And for the life of me and my own goat, of course, I couldn't get the kid out, and so all the other three were all healthy and survive. But I think sometimes just having the kids on the ground with mom, even if you might have to supplement them initially, I think it really helps to keep their mentality. It's almost like I have to survive to keep my kids alive, type mentality, and I think that really helps for most goats, some goats, especially if it's a first time mom, they're like, No thanks. I don't want anything to do with those kids.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  37:57 
But I think in general, it can help keep them motivated. And it certainly did for my Alpine. She was up, she was letting them nurse even after. I mean, I can't imagine how you know sore they are, and you can notice a difference most of the time on the side of the C-section, they're not always going to let them nurse as much, so keeping an eye on the udder and making sure that you can gently relieve one side or the other if you need to, to keep the udder comfortable, keeping them comfortable with pain management and obviously directed by your veterinarian, but also watching those kids a lot closer.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  38:31 
I think the whole reason that those kids thrived is because I had multiple people helping me watch those kids and supplement them as needed, and so sometimes that means, within your means, you know, for me, it can be tube feeding those kids so that they can continue to nurse from mom and not learn a bottle and nursing mom, which, as you know, causes some confusion for kids. But sometimes that might mean pulling a kid to bottle feed so mom only has to take care of one kid. Sometimes that might mean bottle feeding them just to supplement them, so that the first couple days, they stay warm and dry and they're getting the colostrum that they need in that first 24 hours. So I think you know, having them together really helps, but you really have to stay on top of those kids as well to make sure that they're thriving.

Deborah Niemann  39:51 
What complications should an owner watch for afterwards?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  39:19 
The biggest one that I usually talk about is monitoring for fevers, because I think infection can certainly be a factor, even in the best cases of scenarios, these animals are typically going back out to the farm and they're laying down, and even with their incision potentially being covered, we have a higher risk of infection in that first week. So watching their temperature and watching their appetite can be big.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  39:43 
Keeping an eye on their pain level, I think, is another one, because we can start to see just some common sense, things like the mastitis, you know, can set in, not necessarily mastitis, but congestion of the udder, which can be very uncomfortable for a doe if they're not being milked out, and can sometimes lead to mastitis. So watching for that as well. Most of the time, if we're talking about a C-section, the uterus is going to be like exteriorized, meaning that we're going to evaluate the uterus, we're going to flush it, clean it, before we put it back in, and we are going to give antibiotics, if for the veterinarians involved.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  40:18 
So a lot of those things we're trying to prevent, but sometimes they can have uterine tears that are missed. I have definitely had situations where the tears have been higher up, just from people previously going in and out and trying to pull kids, and there's been cervical tears. So, you know, making sure that those things are something that are monitored for.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  40:37 
The other big one with any goat would be not eating and having a negative energy balance and having to deal with, like, we use a lot of different terminology to talk about this. But like, for me, I use the terminology of, like the rumen kind of shutting down when maybe they're not getting up and moving normally, they're not eating normally. And when you have those combination of things coupled with pain management, because sometimes pain management can also negatively impact the rumen, we can start to have issues with the healthy gut and bacteria that we have normally in the rumen, and so not trying to do rapid changes in nutrition, but trying to keep their nutrition consistent, but trying to keep them eating constantly.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  41:19 
And I would much rather have small meals throughout the day rather than, you know, giving them large meals. I also recommend that's a time where get creative with the hay. Maybe you only have, like, a second cutting grass hay. Goats that are not feeling well often like to eat the I always use the term the crappy hay. So sometimes that, you know, you might have seen when goats aren't feeling well, well, some of them will just do it behavior wise, but they might eat straw. So, you know, having clean straw available, having first cutting grass hay available, having the fancy alfalfa hay that you normally would pull for show season, putting a handful of that in, you know, not letting them gorge on an entire bale, but if they want to eat some of it again, it's just about continuing to have a happy rumen. And in doing that, it needs to have constant forage access. So sometimes you have to get creative with what you're offering them.

Deborah Niemann  42:12 
Does the goat need to be separated from the herd after a C-section? And if so, for how long?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  42:17 
Not necessarily, I think the less separation, the better. Sometimes in that situation, I'll recommend having the doe be put with a buddy that you know, they get along with, or potentially the lower on the totem pole goat in the herd. So it's not going to be a goat that bullies them or tries to hurt them. I think sometimes having even just a buddy during recovery can help, especially if they don't have kids with them. Having a recovery stall next to or within a larger pen can be really helpful, because then that goat can be segregated so it's not getting beat up on, but it can also feel the comfort of having the herd with it.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  42:55 
I really like the dog kennels. Like, if you think about like, Tractor Supply has a lot of different versions of dog kennels that can be put together in different configurations, and so sometimes even just like, I don't know, they're probably five by six foot, you can, you know, build one of those and secure it to your barn can be really helpful, but they really could go back in right away. I think the sooner, the better. I usually recommend, especially if it's during winter time or during a season where it might be a little bit more chilly to have a jacket on that goat, not only to protect the incision, but also they're usually going to be shaved, and so we want to make sure that they're not expending any additional energy with trying to keep warm, that we have something to cover that incision.

Deborah Niemann  43:41 
A lot of people ask if a goat has had a C-section, can she be bred again? Or should she be bred again?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  43:47 
Yeah, I think that's a really personal decision, and definitely one that I would recommend people talk to their veterinarian about. In general, the answer is yes, they can be bred again, and they may never have an issue again in their life, but there's always a it depends on the end of that, right? I've had goats that have really weird shaped uteruses, and they may not do well with a repeat breeding.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  44:11 
I've had goats that have a really small pelvis, and so doesn't matter what kind of breeding you're going to have, if that goat has a small pelvis, it may always have issues, and may always have dystocia problems. And in that case, when I have an owner that makes the decision to do a repeat breeding on a doe that's had a C-section, my recommendations are, know the breeding date and preferably induce them.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  44:39 
And that's my personal preference, because if I can plan with a client an induction date. And an induction time where I know I'll be at least available or around if there's an issue, you have a much more controlled setting if you get into trouble, versus not knowing the breeding date. You can't induce them safely then, and if you can't induce inevitably, you know it's going to be two o'clock in the morning when the doe starts to have her kids, right?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  45:05 
And by far, not every doe is going to read the book, but inducing, typically, probably 80% of does tightens the window around, you know, 30 to 36 hours of post induction of when they're going to have their kids. And so that's really nice, if we can plan that. But it really depends on what your goals are as a breeder. If that's a national champion, doe, yeah, you might want to breed that goat again.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  45:31 
If it's a pet and it's a homestead where you maybe have three or four other goats, that might be a situation where I talk to the owner about, you know, what risk do you want to take for that doe? But I think again, it's a personal decision. But yeah, the answer is, if they've had normal uterus, normal size pelvis, they may never have an issue again.

Deborah Niemann  45:52 
Well, this has been really informative. Is there anything else that you think people need to know that we haven't covered?

Dr. Melissa Holahan  45:58 
Oh, I'm sure there is.

Deborah Niemann  46:00 
I know me too.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  46:01 
I feel like we can never cover it all, but I think the biggest things is, I can't stress enough, you know, having a veterinarian that is willing to talk through things on the phone with you, or you can text a video and chat with them, and or having a goat mentor that has, ideally, you know, five or more years of experience, where they actually do have some good experience with kidding and can kind of help you through things. Because inevitably, when you don't have a lot of experience, you are going to be really anxious, really nervous, and, you know, just having somebody that can kind of talk you through that and try to stay sane.

Deborah Niemann  46:39 
Yeah. And one thing that I want to mention, that I would love to not mention, is that no one should do a C-section on their own in their barn. I wish I did not have to talk about that. And I'm sure there are some people who are saying, oh my gosh, why would you mention that? And it's because it has been done. Sometimes people are arrested for animal cruelty because obviously, they're doing it without anesthesia. They don't have a way to stitch the goat up.

Deborah Niemann  47:06 
One person I heard of actually just put the goat down after he cut babies out of her while she was conscious. He was arrested. I hope people have got an appreciation that this is not a simple thing. You don't just cut the goat out and take the kids out, and that you've got plenty of time to get your goat to the vet, or get the vet to your place, or even find a vet like that one lady that called me after two hours of pushing and pulling, you know, I mean, she then spent another couple hours on the phone, calling around, trying to find a vet that she could take her go to, and ultimately then driving three hours and she's still got a ginormous, single kid that was alive had like a grapefruit, but within a couple days, it was as cute as normal.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  47:55 
So yeah, I think you know, as sad as that is Deborah. I think it's a good thing to mention. And what I always tell people is, we all have different goals on our farm. We all have different financial limitations within our farm. But if we own animals, doesn't matter what type of animal it is, we have a responsibility as their caretaker to do what is humane. And again, you know, do no harm. So thinking about those animals in those situations and you may not have the ability to send them to Michigan State or a referral University, right? But there's typically always an option that can provide humane treatment.

Deborah Niemann  48:38 
And this is why everyone needs to have a vet. I know some there's people online who say, "Oh, you don't need a vet", but I always tell people, there are going to be times when you need diagnostics, medication or surgical procedures that only a vet can provide. And for good reason you know, you need their knowledge and experience too.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  48:58 
And your vet is going to be much more apt and at the willing and ready to help you if you've maintained a relationship with that veterinarian during normal business hours, not at two o'clock in the morning, you know. So I think that for me, I always joke around with my clients. I would much rather not come out and see you if I don't have to, right? And we really want that. We want to be able to support you with telemedicine and telehealth, and be able to provide antibiotics, but we also have to legally keep our license. And so in order to do that, we have to have a relationship with them ahead of time. And so that can be very helpful, and it can prevent some of these things.

Deborah Niemann  49:34 
Thank you so much for joining us today. I really hope that this helps people to relax a little and know that if they've got a healthy doe, she's not going to just drop dead on them. They've got plenty of time to call their vet and get appropriate care for her.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  49:48 
Yeah, they do absolutely. And I hope that people that are listening in learn something, if anything else, they learn to just take a breath and take a few minutes and think things through, but have a backup plan that involves somebody that can help you get them to a facility, even if that is, like you said, a couple hours away, I've had very, very good outcomes with people driving hours to get somewhere to a vet.

Deborah Niemann  50:14 
Great. Well, thank you so much.

Dr. Melissa Holahan  50:16 
Yeah, have a great night, Deborah.

Deborah Niemann  50:17 
And that's it for today's show. If you haven't already done so, be sure to hit the subscribe button so that you don't miss any episodes to see show notes, you can always visit fortheloveofgoats.com  and you can follow us on Facebook at facebook.com/LoveGoatsPodcast/. See you again next time. Bye for now.