Ballroom Blitz with Breton Tyner-Bryan (Interview)

Competitive ballroom dance just got a whole lot more intense. This week on Entertain This!, we’re hanging out with award-winning creator Breton Tyner-Bryan to dissect her brilliant new feature film, Rhythm or Smooth.

Breton gives us the inside scoop on directing, editing, and acting in her own feature debut, which tracks a rising dancer (Kiree Brooks) partnered with a prodigy champion who is secretly moonlighting as an escort to support his family. We talk about the intersections of ambition and class, the grueling choreography, and why this visually stunning drama needs to be next on your watchlist. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hey, thanks for joining us. You have quite the extravagant extravagant IMDB. There's lots of things I'd like to talk to you about. But before we get into business, you know, who are you? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Well, thanks so much for having me. I I am officially Bretton Tiner Brian, but yes, I am often B uh for everyone's ease, including my own. I'm a writer, director, actor. I've worked as a choreographer and creative director. I'm originally a ballet dancer who worked on Broadway, and also a photographer. So I I love to tell stories across mediums. Um and I love flight. I love I love for us all to fly on whatever the projects are I'm working on.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

That's a really fun description to describe the creative process that you have, flight. I like that. Um you list off a whole lot of you know creative aspects to production, I guess, in general. Uh choreography, is that where you got your start in in it in production in general?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

I mean, it's a mix for sure. I think I grew into choreography. I was I grew up in the ballet world. I'm a classically trained ballet dancer, and I toured and performed for years, and then I found myself uh dancing on TV shows in New York City and some films in San Francisco, and I was I was completely hooked and found myself sort of like watching in awe all of the the beautiful teams and craftspeople that came together to make that possible. Um so I think performance is how I kind of was able to see that world, just particularly television and film. Um, and at the same time I was choreographing like movie to musical adaptations uh for stage. So I was sort of toggling between the two worlds, but but cinema was kind of always the connector. Um and I love image and you know, at the same time, I was I was shooting like promotional materials for quite some time for like dance companies and uh arts entrepreneurs and you know, headshots and such like that. So sort of image and movement were always kind of toggling together. Um, and then I think choreographing really led to directing because I was starting to create my own work for my dance company at the time Bretton Follies, which has now become a production company, but at the time we had no budget, so I would do end-to-end everything from like directing to costumes to you know to pitching or ticket sales and press. Um, and I think that just kind of created the muscle for really enjoying doing all that work to direct. Um, and then writing kind of came after that.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, you you see a lot of motion-oriented uh creatives like uh fight choreographers or uh you know stump people in general now dipping their toe into uh directing. And I wonder if it's like comes from the pre-vis aspect where you need to establish uh a shot pattern through a lot of movement and you're doing basically the hardest part of cinematography, you might as well just direct a whole short or a film.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I think that's a really beautiful way to think about it and frame it. Um, yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, you know, story is always movement, whether it's stillness or action, which and I really love uh, you know, exaggerating and playing into both. Um, and I think if you have the the appetite for that sort of end-to-end compositional approach to storytelling, it's a it's very much like a natural um trajectory. And I I think too for me, it just speaks to like my appetite for appreciating and enjoying all of those mediums and how they come together. Um, I always kind of joke like I wasn't the best dancer because I'm not that compliant. Okay. So um I just and I and I'm not an eight shows a week kind of person. And I I was I was I had to discover that, you know. I was like, I the first movies and stuff I was on, I'm like, I was so thrilled to do 25 takes and go home and wake up the next day and shoot something else. And so you kinda and then you know, the dancers that do eight shows a week, the actors that do that, I'm so grateful to them because I was building those shows, but I could no way every day show up and do the same show. So I think it's like you start to learn, you know, uh where you land emotionally and what your strengths are. Um, and I I do well with like the variety, you know, I'll go, I'll go as many takes as we need, and then I've given everything I have in that day, and I'm ready to come back and do something, do another scene.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Okay, so going from 25 shows, you know, that what that was too monotonous a routine, but you you said that you'll do as many takes as it takes uh is necessary. Like that's that's gotta be pretty exhausting, too.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, it's really interesting to learn that it's sort I don't know, it's a zone that I love because it's sort of like I I'm very aware of how long it takes to build a show. I I've grown up in that that world my whole life and like what that tech process and that you know like incubation process like, and it can be quite long. It can be eight years, it can be, you know, a couple years. Um, and you sort of get to like give your best in this condensed amount of time with preparation to arrive at your best take, whether I'm, you know, I'm directing or I I've been that actor where we're just we're pushed, but there's something lovely about just leaving it all, you know, on tape, on the floor, on the film, whatever it is in that moment. I find that really satisfying. That being said, I love to work efficiently energetically and really do, you know, if I'm directing, I like to do just as few takes as possible. Or the actor I'm working with, I know that we need to do this many just for them to settle where they are. So I think it's about, you know, it's about that sweet spot. And I think every every scene and every person needs a different approach to that. Um, but I came to learn that sort of in myself. I was like, oh, I have the you know, the appetite to do it in this fashion. Um, but I knew that as a teenager, you know, when I was like dancing in the core and ballets, I was I was always a person sort of like enhancing things that were not my choreography. So it was really clear that I liked the play space of of graduating and growing into and you know, whatever that delivery is. And I think with film two, you get to, you know, you get to really play around and and do five completely different takes and then see how that lands when you're cutting.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, I've heard it said that like any any form of entertainment uh that's good tells a story, whether it's a dance or you know, a painting or whatever. So uh I I'm sure finding that story in in whatever motion or whatever capture you're trying to uh process, that's that's gotta be like nine tenths of it right there.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

So yeah, I I totally agree. I think that's like a beautiful example too, because I I think you know, people are always trying to figure out like what's the what's the algorithm, what what's the sweet spot for for creating and connecting. And I think if you make something that's authentic from the heart, regardless of the medium, people feel it instantly, whether it's a painting, a tapestry, you know, a book, interior design, a sneaker, you know, um amazing video game. Um and I I think it's sort of like that that mantra of like love and authenticity that makes that makes great work. And there can be pain for sure mixed in with that. Um, but I often find like the muscle of intuition helps us arrive there beyond this analytical space. It's like do all the preparing and then let it fly. Let it see where it is, let it tell you really show you where it wants to go.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

You are a director. I can tell just by the way you used so many different words to describe a situation, you know. That's it's really impressive. Uh I have a lot of I direct directing is like a uh it's it's a it's a thing that I've always been interested in and always wanted to do. And I'm not good at it. So but I admire it and I I'm excited to ask you a bunch of questions, but we've got to hit some uh some essential questions. So you said you were a teenager when you started dancing, and that's kind of where you began to develop the passion. Uh where were you? When did you know that I could do this forever? And when did it upgrade to cinematography to film?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Sure, I appreciate you asking. Um, I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, um, and I grew up dancing and working in the theater there from a young age. So I was like performing in large-scale productions, like in opera houses from like age six, and I am very aware how lucky I was to just walk into those worlds as a very urban inner city kid that just happened to be down the street. And at the time you had, you know, three-act ballets, full symphony, you know, full-scale productions. So I grew up with that volume of storytelling and like what that was like. Um, and then I I was I was very bossy with my parents about uh them giving that experience to me. I w I wanted it as much I wanted all the time, like forever. So I knew but even at like two years old, I was running around begging them to watch me putting on shows. So I think, you know, that appetite was very clear and and also I would say that like neat that need. It was it's very much an emotional, expressive need. Um and as a photographer too, I grew up shooting film. That was always happening too, sort of like seeing moments, making moments, capturing them at the same time. Um, so I sort of like I was sent to YMCA Ballet and and I I told my parents that wasn't gonna cut it. Um I was really like aggressive about it. I I I I don't know what it's like to deal with me as a child, but it was a lot. And um yeah, they were like, you can try this out first. And um, and I was like, Are you kidding me? And I was rude to the teacher. I was like, this is not enough. Um and I'm sure people who have worked with me are laughing listening to this now. But um anyway, so uh I got Sears Ballet School like at age eight. And again, I was also the kid who was like more, more, more. Um, and I I already knew I I knew then somehow. I just knew. Um, I I don't think I knew I was gonna become a filmmaker. Um, but I was a storyteller who loved I grew with that that sort of like lavish compilation of elements to tell a story. Um and then, you know, like fast forward through a dance career. I was working with a lot of dance theater companies in San Francisco where we were very much pushed to to work in creative manners from like poetry or music, um, or you know, just forms of collaboration, improvisational structures that really allowed for like this raw and rough outline to then be cohesively boiled down. It was definitely a challenge at the time. I know it was a huge part of my development and understanding I could generate things on my own. Um and then I I got to New York and I was I was impatient as I usually am. Um, and nothing was really landing for me as an as a dancer auditioning. And I had this, I just was very aware that like my body was gonna be worn out by the time these people figured out what to do with me. So I started making my own shows. Um and I actually, and this is called this is like Bretton Folly's, I did these cabaret shows down on Houston Street, and I just um I just was sort of chasing the love affair of the music I liked, the storytelling I liked, the movement, costume, all of it. And and that was sort of like the new compass. And when I was running those shows, you know, this is like kind of before the media explosion we've had in the past 10 years. And so I started making trailers to get the word out because I had to sell tickets to keep the show open. Um, you know, there was no profit, it was just end-to-end dancers got paid, and and that was a huge success at the time. Um, and I fell in love with making the trailers. So then I was aware that I could like share this idea with people without them being able to be in New York City. And I and I was just like reminded of, you know, my privilege growing up in like these beautiful theaters and opera houses, and how I always wondered, like, I just kind of felt like people needed story and dance that weren't necessarily in those theaters and having those experiences. And so I've always sort of been drawn to video and film in that way that you can like share a message globally so quickly with people, and that that unites people or strikes a chord of like commonality and humanity. But the trailers was kind of the switch, I think. Um, and then I started taking what I'd done in live shows choreographically and narratively and trying that in different environments, and that's when we really started taking off making movies.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

So you're like experimenting, you just you you try your projects, you try a little bit outside of your wheelhouse, and you see what you like. Is there anything that you've shied away from? Like, oh, that's not for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, in the past like couple of years, I would say yes. So that process sort of turned into me getting hired to direct other people's work. And then some of my mentors, I brought them some projects, and they were like, This is crap. Go write your own stuff.

unknown 13:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I was like, look, someone, I was like, someone agreed to let me direct this. This is wonderful. And they were like, This is shit. Go go away, write something, and come back to me when you've done something that's yours. And they were right. Um, and and there's a few times a few people have yelled at me and it was really valuable, and I'm grateful to them. But they they somehow like they knew they could see it. And I wasn't um, I wasn't like thinking about being a writer, but I'd done a lot of creative writing as a younger person, and I used to write poetry and give it to my friends who are musicians to make into songs. I was like, okay. Um, and then I was injured. And so I started to write, and it was like I could fly again at that time, emotionally and creatively. Um, and I think that piece sort of I started to then get hired to write for other people. Um, so I think that was kind of like the next jump, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

We've talked to people that uh uh had their career hindered from an injury in the past, and usually that's a kind of a, I don't know how to say it, maybe like a make it or break it or you know, uh polish that dirt kind of moment where you just have to figure out how to make it situate and more glorious than you realize you could. And in fact, they've they they usually go to great lengths to explain how well they've turned their life around and made it even better than they expected or what it would have been otherwise. Is that also kind of that situation for you?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

I think so. I'm like sort of trying to embrace it, but I also I knew some years ago, um, I can always kind of feel the timeline when certain things are winding down and other things are cooking up. And and that was happening at a time when I was working in stage productions and then I was I was also having the opportunity to work as an actor and and work as a director, um, and just where I felt alive. But the but the sweet spot to that that kind of circles back is like now I'm writing on teams that are in the movie musical space. So it's like, you know, that um having that appreciation for really understanding like these are just just different um formats for telling story and having a respect for all of them. I I didn't really expect that piece to circle back, but it, you know, it makes a lot of sense. Um and also just I mean, my whole life is music and it always has been. Um, I mean, I grew up in a very musical family. My films don't exist without music. Um I don't breathe without it, I didn't dance without it, I didn't create without it. So I think it's really cool to then be writing with composers and lyricists because I'm still sort of in the the pot, the origin of what made it all move and made it sing. Um and I'm super grateful for that. I think, you know, the injury piece is weird for me because I had a really long career as a dancer. Um I was like extremely lucky. But what's funny about it is like nobody it's so inevitable that what we're talking about, that transition, and no one really talks about it or prepares you for it. And so I sort of and then of course I don't really talk about my experience with a lot of other people, but I'm trying to like be sort of more in conversation with that because I think it's like it's so inevitable for anybody in any arena that has a timestamp on it that they will then evolve into a new version of that. Um but yeah, the injury thing is like a new conversation, I would I would say, and then you know, bodies bounce back in certain ways and you realize like um, you know, health really becomes a priority. And I think uh again, like those eight shows a week, those guys are fabulous. I was never uh that my system's not built for that, and I know that. Um so it's just again, it's like you learning how to utilize your creative muscle in the ways that feel like harmonious.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

And also like listening to the universe, like what what are you being asked to do? What doors are opening? Um, but I've talked to a lot of dancers about it too, that sort of talk about it as a redirect um or just you know, an important signal. But I think I I went back and got injured like enough, like a couple of times, pretty seriously. So it it was um it's been kind of loud and clear. It's it's more about like just being um appreciative of what doors are opening as others close. Um, but it's also a choice. I think I do have to be I I do have to be sort of transparent with myself that I I did make a choice to choose um longevity in my body, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

I think that's pretty smart. Um, you know, and and I understand the hesitation in talking about it, and I appreciate you you know putting yourself out there for it.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

So well and I understand that you know when it comes to injury career definitely for my for me, but I'm serious to injuries growing up. It always kind of makes you a little bit when you get back to doing what you're supposed to be doing. It's it makes you a little apprehensive. Like, you know, it's is it gonna hurt again or you know, it makes you a little nervous about going forward with what you were doing before. I still have that too. Oh my gosh, injuries and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So uh same. Uh both knees, Achilles, calf, back. Um and I, you know, I skated for many years. I I have a really resilient body in that way. So I got away with a lot. And I think, you know, it's just it's sort of just listening to it. I'm also like aware of sort of in conversation, like what's what's the emotional component of injuries? Something I studied for a long time, just like how emotions get lodged in the body and and what's the what's the spiritual meaning based on like if it's knees or ankle or back. But um I think the pivots always happen, and I really I love that you guys said like is this the big one? Because I thought that a couple times and then I I did a couple I had a couple others after that. Um but uh but a lot of my mentors, you know, like I have I have these friends in their 60s and 70s who worked with Bob Fossey, and I and what I learned from them, because they've gone through this, you know, many more times than I have, and it's sort of like each each win is is as big as the loss, if that makes any sense. So it's like overcoming and rebuilding the conf I know exactly what you guys are talking about, like the the sort of the the the fragility or the you know like it's sort of coming back to um trusting the body but like also respecting it. And I I know I push my body to like lots of extremes because that's sort of the kind of ballet uh dancer I was, and I love that. I love that intensity. Um but there's a limit for sure. So I think it's you know, it's finding it in other in other places. Um and that I love that that volume and intensity of a team and directing a huge set and just like letting all these actors, you know, have the time of their life. So I think it's um acknowledging that like that abundance and that uh opportunity in other spaces. Um but it is still like a strange conversation. And I've heard many people say like, you know, dancers, the dancer death, uh, the identity death is a is a really long going, ongoing sort of like process of grief that that people don't talk about. So I guess I'm trying to talk about it today. And I I have many friends who are athletes too, or or musicians who, you know, things have happened physically that that changed how they play or or maneuver throughout the world or what they make. But but I say this because I think so many people, you know, who go through it as well.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Well, I mean, just as far as like physicality, like when you when you have an injury, whether it well, injury or getting older.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

I mean, that's right. That's the question.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

I was gonna say, you know, it it makes you think, well, I can't do this physical stuff forever. So I start started looking into other things that I I was I felt like I was good at that I could you know kind of work towards a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

But it could happen.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

We're we're we're all emotionally injured on the podcast. But um I mean I mean that's for sure in the conversation with me too. Like, you know, is this is this age, is this injury, is this interest? Um but uh trying to be so my mentors would talk about like, you know, try to be as fluid as possible, try to try to move like water, leave. Resistance, especially with age. Um, because I also, you know, I'm just really aware. I'm like, okay, I for me it's about getting in shape so I can be on set directing, so I can be really healthy and strong. And that's something I I actually trained for like the last movie we shot last year. Um and I was just like well aware of like that was necessary and also my goal. Um and also just like you know, you know, movie sets are long days and trying how how to balance that, how to just uh it's sort of like a different, a different version, like whether you play baseball or you play basketball, like each thing needs its kind of specific game plan, I would say, for help.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Endurance, yeah.

unknown 22:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, sure, yeah. And I mean, and and also to, you know, just like respecting your own limits, I think is is an ongoing lesson for me. Because I love it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

So I have a serious question. Reading through your IMDB interest. I there's three things I want to ask you about, but I'm gonna merge it all into one question. I hope I nail it pretty good. If you could turn any classic automobile into a time machine to go view a historical interior, what car are we using? Where are we going, and whose house are we checking out?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Oh gosh. Okay, I can't say the truth, so what should I say?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

You have to say the truth.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Um I know, I know. It's uh yes, I'm testifying about all my favorite cars and interiors right now. Oh, well, obviously the Maximalist to me cannot answer this question, but I'm gonna try. I mean, I love a 69 Porsche navy blue, but but I could also do a 52 Ford turquoise teal converse. I mean, I could go on and on. Um, I do love cars of the 50s, I would say. Um and I I think that's what I would fly through movies and colors of the 40s and 50s, probably. Um, I like that aesthetic very much. Location. Oh god. I mean, I'm a maximalist for interiors. I'm a total junkie for interiors. So I have a I have a terrible like, I don't want you can tell. I'm like, I want them all. I don't want to use the.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Each room needs to be the one I want.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Um, but I think I would travel with um my friends I laugh the most with. That would be my my grounding like uh go-to is just absolutely laughing our faces off while riding around. Didn't these hard time traveling through the my favorite interiors in the world? I mean, that's why I love movies too, is like you get to you can like infinitely dream with interiors, just infinitely make them up. Um, and I just love that so much, so so much. So hopefully I did a little bit of justice to your question.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

You did. If I had the gauge, you just prefer like 50s automobiles. It's like, you know what, give me a 55 Chevy nomad. I want that to be my time traveling mobile. We'll put some surfboards on the top. I'd like the two-tone white and red. It just looks fantastic. And I want to see the whitehouse out the first time they did it.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

No, I don't surf, but it's just like I mean, then you say it, I'm like, well, then I'm like, I I I have a friend who's always like uh um, he's he's uh I'm actually gonna see him tomorrow. He's um he's a math genius, uh he's self-made, um, he's brilliant. Um he's always like, Brent, if we could do anything, what would you want to do? And I'm like, I kind of just want to like, could we just scale like this volcano? Could we scale the build? Could we just climb up the buildings in New York City? Like, so I'd love for the I'd love for those cars to fly around through space if that's an option. Top down.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Now looking through before directing, acting, you know, big time stuff. You used to work as a zoo pastry chef.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Um, yes, I did. Where were you working?

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Were you good?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I I mean, I don't know, that's probably a flammable question. Um uh I loved the team element and the speed for sure. Um, I worked at uh Jardinaire, okay, which was Tracy Desjardins' flagship restaurant in San Francisco. Um and it was right next to the Symphony and the Ballet, actually. Um yeah, and and you guys are like, where's this left field piece come from? Um, but I loved, I don't know, I grew up around really amazing Italian pastry shops as a child. Um and I loved like the visual of them, I loved the energy, I loved how happy food and pastries made everyone. I love the organization of them, the colors. Um, and I was always like baking for people, and then I I kind of fell in love with like Ruth Reichel and her books and writing for gourmet. Um I went to culinary school, so I would kind of like dance all day rehearsal and go to culinary school at night, or and then I would chef at night basically when I got hired. Um I don't know, it was uh it's very similar in many ways. It's sort of structured elements of design and uh sort of living life through opulence and flavor, but also something that's like so, you know, homegrown and familiar. Like who who do you love to eat with who fed you at a certain time in your life? Really, we're just talking about like love, love and story through food. Um, and uh it's funny, there's a project I'm on right now that's sort of circling all those worlds to direct. So it's kind of funny how um stuff comes back. But uh I was young and it was a good time to do it when I was young. It's a hard, you know, it's it's a hard business for sure. What's your favorite?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Um what's your favorite baking show?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Oh my god, I hit so many. Um, I mean, I grew up in the time too when like Food Network was hitting for sure. So you could watch like, you know, you could watch 10 different people cook, their energy, the worlds they went through. Um, I mean, Julia Child is is just so classic and iconic. I also love her story as a human being. I just I love what she kind of went through to arrive at the knowledge she was craving and then the way she shared it with people. Um she's probably there's just like such an ingenuity, I think, in her and a stamina for joy. So she's probably my all-time favorite. Um, but I think there's there's so many. And um, I don't know, it we're the project I'm working on right now, we're just sort of in conversation with like how people um can enjoy cooking for themselves and and and what that what with that sort of like exchange of love, what that's like. Um but I mean I also grew up in a family. My dad's basically a chef. Like I I I grew up very much with someone who is is very inventive and gifted and shows love that way. Um and so I think I I don't know. Fo food to me is very much story at the same time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

So when's your next movie coming out about a time traveling pastry chef who gets into a 58 Plymouth Fury and goes to make pastries for Julia Child? When's that coming out?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I mean, let's do it in three months. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Uh looking at talking about all looking at your IMDB, you have uh an insane amount of short work. I think you've probably done the most shorts out of anybody that we've talked to. Um why why why come back to shorts? Why not try and stay for a feature?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Well, I love I appreciate that. Um I mean, if I if I were to zoom out and look at myself, I think that was building muscle and experience. Um you're also looking at my collaboration with Michael J. Burke, which which is just like, you know, um totally symphonic and synergistic, and um, there's just like a shared passion for working together. Um so I think we just got hooked on working together. So that's probably a bit of the volume. I also just love it. So I was taking opportunities that came my way, whether it's something I created myself or something I was hired to do. Um, but you know, the the focus was definitely on features, and we're sort of we're into that space now, and I'm writing for television, writing for musicals. So I think I'm always doing the best I can with the resources I have, and that's definitely what was being presented to me at that time.

SPEAKER_04 30:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

So that probably speaks to the volume, but I was also just so happy, you know, I love making movies. I was so happy to be doing it. Um and that's what was coming my way at the time.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So that probably speaks to the volume.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Um most people say, you know, um, oh, I hit a dry spell and I gave up for a couple of years, and then, you know, I was able to save enough money, my grandma died, whatever. I got uh enough to do my feature that I've always dreamed to do. And you know, I I've always wondered why people just didn't do something. You always keep keep the hamster wheel spinning, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

So yeah, I really appreciate that. I mean, I think that comes from my dance background too. Like I, you know, I've I've never gotten a job from an audition in my life. And um, so my my trajectory's never really been linear, but it's it's always about like focusing that if you can focus the energy, you can make anything happen. So it's just about you know, where you're at and and what's like the next jump, even if it's a small jump that you're gonna learn something from. And so I think each time we did a new project, I was always um, you know, I don't slightly getting yelled at by my TV. I was I was always pushing myself pushing myself. And so that just reflects where I was at, or like, you know, there was no budget. So I was I did wardrobe, I did color, I did sound, I did editing, you know, I I did all the festival stuff. Um, but I was also like building a muscle to understand those ecosystems. And I think that comes from being a dancer where it's like, you know, as long as you're people like to judge the level of the gig, but I think it's better to be in motion, like you said, because then each time you're working with new people, um, also just really transparently, like emotionally, I need it. Um, it's it's just like I need to be in conversation with art at a high volume. And I just have to accept that's who I am. And so that's probably what you're seeing as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Absolutely. I have another food-related question.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Tom must be hungry. I am hungry.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

I haven't eaten dinner yet. Yeah, a lot of movies have great food scenes, and one of my favorite ones is Goodfellas, because you know, Bobby Darren's playing the mobsters, you know, they're smoking cigars in prison. It's you know, fighting God with a razor blade. It's it does not liquefy in in oil, though. I will tell you that. It does not actually do that. But if you're making your own store to your own movie, what dinner is being made if you had total control?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Well, it's a it's a very unsophisticated response. Um and my my camera department is very aware of it. They make fun of me. They call it oh liquid lunch. Um it's it's uh it's a high volume of green juice, coconut water, and dark chocolate. Oh man. I know, I know your poor employees are horrendous. Well, no, they don't, they don't have, they don't eat that. They eat well. I eat. That's what I eat. Um that I have a hard time eating when I'm on set. Um, because I'm just like hyper-attuned to everything that's going on. So we do a lot of liquids, we pour a lot of liquids in uh copious amounts of uh coconut water. But I would say, you know, I like food that makes people happy. So as long as people are happy, I think, then we're we're nailing it. Um and you can tell the difference too. I mean, I've been on there's some really big sets I worked on where like, you know, the the catering company or chefs will show up with like two hot meatballs, you know, 20 minutes before we wrap a scene, and everybody is just like it made their day. So I think about food just like you think about like a live show, the timing of when um it's delivered with love. And that particular set, like all those times they'd show up with like warm snacks because it was cold. Um, you could just tell everybody was like, it was the best thing that ever had. So, but I I think you know, the the sugar goes a long way. Like I'm often bringing snacks to my actors or asking them, you know, like, you know, what's the what's the special matcha drink you need at 3 p.m.? And just making sure they get whatever it that is that makes them feel loved and secure and confident.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Um, and you know, sometimes it's gummy bears. Um, but I it's kind of like everybody has a different I mean, there's so many times if I if I just pass like, you know, just a wink and a nod and pass some pass some sugar to an actor, you can tell they're just like thank you for saving me right now at like three o'clock or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

But what did you think of that? But yeah, I wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

So I kind of like the the love with it, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Like I I probably like the love more than the I I have a military background, and usually whenever somebody gives me good food, it's a it's a it's a bad sign. So I'm always suspicious. It's like deployment?

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Uh oh. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I've always seen great food on movie sets. Um, and you know, restaurants restaurants is always a it can be a different thing, but I I think too, it's just like I mean, I remember being on one set. I was so happy. This is like early pandemic. I was so happy to be back on set. I think I ate like three pieces of cake like a five-year-old. And I was just like, this is everything. I was like, there's cake, and I'm on set. Um and I don't think it was about the kind of cake, it was just like um the celebration of being on set. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Well, I know we've we've done some uh work on some sets and what like our normal job, they have like staff dining, and we have our people that food fix food and yeah. But when people come and cater stuff for like a film that's being filmed there, it's like a kid in the candy door to be like, let me go, I'll be I'll be back in 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, and you can feel like when whoever put that spread together is having a really good time passing like really like yummy things to everyone. Like you can feel the love that goes into it. And I think the the time the timing too of when it hits, of like just knowing that people need it, um, that creates like a really satisfying environment. And just like people, you know, actors crew everybody knowing that they're taken care of and that like none of this is possible without them. So we're happy to you know take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

What kills me is the roast beef guy is how thin they slice. It's like you're at a blackjack table. It's like, hit me, hit me, hit me, hit me, it's like just for the love of God, like slice a little bit more. I'm hungry. I I've I've witnessed this many times where it's probably all the guys standing there with crazy just like bouncing up and down like on the balls of their pages, like more.

SPEAKER_04 36:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Um so uh I wanted to ask you a lot of directoral questions because uh directors. Um my favorite question to ask people is like what do you do? What what is your form of direction? Do you have I like I know there's one uh philosophy, you give them uh three descriptive words that try and sum up uh an emotion you want them to feel. Is that like your stab, or do you just re-describe the scene a different way? What's what's your what's your stick?

SPEAKER_00 37:05

I very much follow the energy. So I think you know, everybody I'm working with needs something different, and that's what I'm fine-tuning is who needs emotional support, who needs just the clear linear direction of the scene, who needs me to leave them alone, who needs me to reassure them we're we're gonna do four takes and then I'll talk to you. Um, so I'm that's what I'm watching is the rhythms. And also I'm very open to some of the older actors I work with who um, you know, they're like, hey, can I try this? I'm like, absolutely. Um, and and letting them sort of drive us in a new direction. I think it's a lot of prepare, prepare, and then be open to something better happening. Yeah, um, but I I think it's uh it's it's that fine balance of just enough. What is needed, just enough. Um, and if I really need to rally something or I know that it's gonna take me 12 takes to get somebody there, my focus is trust, is trust, trust, trust with everybody. Um, and so that they know, you know, if if we're going to a place that possibly feels uncomfortable, they know that they're taking us there. Um, that there's no there's no demand that we're a team working together and that that I have their back all the way. I think if if there's any mantra, it's that I always have my talents back, I am talent, I know what it's like to be talent. Um because at the end of the day, what you want is the best performance, and everybody arrived there in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Well, how how do you deal with uh conflict, for instance, if somebody's just dead set on something and it's not in keeping with your vision? That's another thing I see directors struggle with.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

I mean, I'm like, dare I say this? I don't think I've I've dealt with that. Um come on, yeah, yeah. I I I mean, not with actors. Like, I mean, I'm I'm pretty heavy-handed with who we cast.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

And I also, you know, in New York you're working with people often that have a theater background sort of like crossed into different mediums. So there's a I'm letting them know that we can play it a couple different ways, and that space allows them to relax, I think, and then and then I'm gonna get the take that I need. Um once in a while I think it's about if I know we're not I know if I know we've arrived at where we're gonna go, um regardless of my desire, I will just move on.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Um I I don't think there's because you can feel it, you know, you can feel like if there's space for it to grow or if it's there's not. And you can feel it pretty quickly, to be honest. I can kind of feel it like in the first like 10 seconds. Um but I I don't think there's any point in like being um combative. I don't because you can feel you can feel people's, you know, sort of aptitude and bandwidth. Um but I but again, like I think the point is to build trust with them in rehearsal before you get to set. And the best directors I've observed, that's what they do. Um they're sort of they're doing the least amount of directing on set because they built the trust in rehearsal.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah. Well, what about on the production side? On the on the budget money side, like uh you you you seem very versed in the artistic aspect of production. How do you how do you manage all of that? Because there's boundless disagreements when it comes to you know how it should be done. In terms of the budget? Yeah, money is usually at the core of it.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah, I mean, I my focus is always cast, camera, and post. And it's on making the most beautiful and highly creative thing we can make. Um and I work with teams that prioritize that. I mean, I've also made movies for nothing. So I'm it's sort of like music if you're taking a little bit from here and putting it somewhere else as a measure. You can do I I've just I've done it so many times for for very little money. That's not to say that you don't need a robust budget to arrive where you need to, but I think you if you ground down into cast, camera, and post, then you can sort of make sure that the the money is there and allocated for those priorities, and then you can redistribute in other places. Um, I think you know efficiency is key. So it's also making sure that everybody understands how fast we can turn the set. I think that comes from my background in theater as well. Because you can save, because money is time. Um and theater people know how to do that just because like we're expected to do a show at this time every night and everything is calculated to the minute or 10 seconds or 30 seconds. Um, my experience is if you ground down into understanding how long each thing takes, you can actually save time, which saves money.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And uh so well why don't we use rhythm or smooth as a as an as a launch pad for all of this? Uh specifically talking about uh you're in post-production right now um for this movie and you wrote and directed it. Is there anything else you did for this movie?

SPEAKER_00 41:57

I also act in it. Um Yeah, I act in it.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Did you enjoy directing yourself?

SPEAKER_00 42:05

I did. Um, I mean, the scenes I'm in, um a couple of them are sort of they're quite large. And so like hopping in and out of that space, um, it was just a higher level of intensity, which I really I really love because it forces me to be even more clear, 360 on everything that's going on. So that I'm I'm aware of everybody's angle, I'm aware of everyone's lines, not just because I wrote it, but also like what's the the rhythm they're arriving at um so that I'm supporting them, but that I, you know, I have to, it's very different if I just show up on set as an actor. It's like I have to, you know, I know my lines, but I'm there to keep the whole machine moving. I would say that very much is possible working with excellent DPs. That's the and I've done that before too with Michael, where we've done other movies that I'm also in. Um so we kind of have like a shorthand of almost like a great dance partner where sometimes you're responding to one another physically or making those adjustments quickly. Um but yeah, I mean it's a I don't know, it's a challenge, but I I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I really did. Is it a struggle to kind of take that director hat off and then put the actor hat on and then quickly transition back? Or was it a skill you d developed over time?

SPEAKER_00 43:19

I love it. I don't know. Um no, it's not hard for me. I think because act I mean, I'm originally a performer, so acting for me is kind of like it's kind of like chilling out. It's like I can just relax. Um, it's a very playful space for me. It's just like it's it's so much easier to act for me than to do normal things. Um and the directing space really comes is like a space of love. You know, I'm really like ushering uh people's energy and greatness forward, and I'm very grateful to them for their their talents. So it's sort of like you just it's like this huge symphony that gets going, and you also get to be in the symphony. It's like ridiculously lovely. Um I I do think there's certain spaces where you know it can be more it can be more challenging um if you know you're dealing with like very complicated blocking that hasn't been pre-rehearsed. I think that's probably the one the one piece. And then you know I I just I love my camera department and trusting them when they're like, hey can't be can you like move an inch here or there and I I know what they're asking for is creating a better shot.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Well what is this movie?

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Uh walk us through the the kind of a synopsis of it and then tell us uh something new you did for this movie that you haven't done yet sure so rhythm or smooth um is about uh class and appetite and gender and race in New York City present day and it's set in the competitive ballroom world um but it's it's really about you know poverty and wealth coming together as appearing to be on two opposite sides but aligning in dance as uh a place of community and collaboration. So we have an African American woman in her 20s who's grown up wealthy and privileged on the Upper East side who sort of befriends an escort who's down and out on his luck who was a former ballroom champion and they have an amazing partnership together and and it's sort of crossing those classes structures as well as gender and race just to realize that that dancing together is like the greatest win in life in many ways. But it's also very much pulling on my time spent in New York City and all of the appetite that's roaming around this city and and and really the space that everybody's trying to fill that emptiness in some way. And I love that because I think it's I find it to be really honest. I feel like that exaggeration is closer to the truth. And there's a lot of people pretending everything is sort of you know dressed and pressed and and and confident and great but behind that in New York is a lot of people hustling um to fill up something that may never be filled and I I I um I find that entertaining.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Well for the story for this And you wanted something uh something new something new I've done yeah yeah for the story for this does this come off of experiences that you've had or is it more some ideas that you've come up with or how's that work I would say both blended for sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

I think it's uh you know every there's there's actors in this film that I I wrote for specifically um it definitely plays on on tropes which I love because I feel like tropes exist as an exaggerated form of identifying energies and appetites. But it's also that idea of like if you know you know uh New York, like if you turn the corner a certain neighborhood, you look at the fashion, you you listen to the language, you listen to what's going on, you know where you are in the city. And I think that's a really specific and beautiful thing that I thought about a lot that also went into this film. I mean I think the the newness of it and also the old is that I wasn't planning to do a film that was so New York and so dance focused. But it's it's all of my time in New York City has very much gone into this and then we worked with very much a New York cast that I think knows all about that hustle of just what it takes to like walk down the street here, feed yourself, do your laundry and like make it um and and that takes a lot of guts um that often isn't talked about because everybody is kind of like you know trying to outdo each other here. But I also think there's a lot of really beautiful camaraderie that I've experienced in New York City at times where people look out for each other and and that's the other side of it that I that I love so much is like you can't just make it here on your own. You know you need there's always somebody you know saying hey have you thought about this did you look at that um at least like when I was dancing in New York that was definitely a part of how we all got by is it we all had a piece the other one needed um I think like something new I don't know there's lots of new things I need a good answer. What's something new um I don't know you guys what should I say what's new we're gonna we're gonna edit this you had your biggest you had your biggest cast is that true yes thank you yeah I really appreciate that yeah thank you so much you guys are like we need dinner too um yeah it's a huge ensemble cast and uh I guess what's new there's scenes where I directed like over a hundred people and that was a new level and I love that and um just the the the amount of energy in organization and where to focus my energy when we're dealing with those large ballroom scenes and competition scenes and also we're just in like huge cacophonous spaces. So what it takes to organize that cohesively to do take after take and then of course I'm focused on like my two leads who are just like killing the choreography, killing the dialogue it's like they really need my support in a space that has a lot of different energy flying around. So it's that mix of like intimate macro and then expansive where I'm sort of like oftentimes I'm really protecting my leads and my cast to keep their energy connected and focused to one another and that they know they have my support even though I'm dealing with this huge scene. So it's kind of bouncing between those two but getting everything kind of set up where it needs to be and then really honing in on my leads so they feel supported and kind of grounded in all of that energetic noise.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Now with all this New York experience as a fellow New Yorker myself what is your favorite New York movie?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

I need it's New York City is really its own it's like it's it's like having a cast member yeah I'm assuming the Godfather doesn't count right no I will Godfather part one though right Godfather yeah yeah I mean I think that's the one thing about like there's so many movies that have been shot here in so many scenes but also like everywhere you turn is a freaking movie in this town. Like every corner is a scene um all the different neighborhoods all the people that have come through here all the energy that's here um so I I think that's part of it too is like my my mind is often dominated by all the things I get to see here in the best way.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Let me ask you some more technical production questions.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

How long was your pre-pro uh window you know how how long did you shoot for and how long in post-production sure pre-pro was about three months we shot for I believe 20 21 I think we actually came in early so 20 days um and post is about I would say four months.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Wow yeah a lot of uh postwork or you had a a full crew for that or just a key kind of uh editorial crew yeah key crew for sure I think the the piece in post is um just identifying we we have some like world ballroom champions in the film a number of couples that we're really lucky to have the experience to work with um along with an amazing choreographer and and then just like in you know some of the best dance footage I've ever seen shot in the past like 30 years of dance.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

So that's like this asset that I I feel the responsibility to make sure we're choosing like the absolute best performances from those dancers and also like an alignment with what the beautiful work our DP did. So I think that's the that's what's particular about this um editing process. And then you realize you're like okay my eye is so specific because I spent my whole life as a dancer. So just understanding like the follow through just like with action or sports um you know like a car chase scene like what is what is the most dynamic moment with camera and movement. So I think that's sort of be been the the extra special focus with this particular postproduction process.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

What was your uh Robert Frost moment of this movie that what was the darling that you had to kill that you really didn't want to have to deal with my brain's like I don't want to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

I dissociated I forgot about it. I would say efficiency but the muscle of that it's like being like hey this could be more efficient seeing how it could be more efficient. I I think it's all about problem solving in real time. So that's the moment like you're constantly going okay how how are we going to maneuver these obstacles today or this missing piece or like that's going on and it's just about constantly pivoting. So I think that that's the muscle that came from assuming anything would be as it was and there's good stuff that comes out of that but but yeah constant pivot was was part of it or just like you know we thought we'd have these four things and we don't have them so then you know you're problem solving to find them. I sort of like I think I I accepted that like halfway through because also if you're if you're focused on like oh I'm not getting what I want or need then you're not present to make the best thing you can make almost like a chef like what are the ingredients I have today? I can focus on what's miss missing or I can focus on like okay I have this these really beautiful tomatoes. Let's that's pulling my attention. So I think it's always elevating to problem solve instead of sort of sitting in the loss of what you thought it was going to be because otherwise I think it's a really dark space. And and it you know it's sort of interesting it's like this wild live rodeo and it it's gonna roll forward with or without you so I think it's important to um to keep sort of generating a positive space for people to play. And I'm also aware that like that tension of you know we don't have this, we don't have that I think that tension actually went into the film in the best way because that's what ballroom dance is. It's like high stakes, we have to do this right now. There's there's all that intensity of performance of leading up to it, all that anticipation. So my sort of takeaway after filming is that I think it will be have been an asset to um creating some of the drama for this film.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Well good it sounds like it went pretty smooth all things considered we've heard some uh pretty crazy horror stories from other people's productions but uh we gotta wrap up here pretty soon I just want to ask you one more important question. If you could make the world watch one musical what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Ooh guys involved don't answer for you're on the spot again I mean I my my brain my brain ran through like five what was the first one what was the first one oh I mean I'd go I'd go anything Fossy but I also work with uh a dear friend of mine Peter Melnick and I do think the Richard Rogers canon of work is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Okay um yeah okay Richard Rogers Oh um like Rogers and Hammerstein Richard Rogers as of the half of Rogers and Hammerstein.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Gotcha um yeah I mean I think I don't know I'm sort of a classicist so I love I love stuff from the 80s probably the most but I grew up on other things from the 50s.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

So I I mean again I'm gonna give you guys a terrible answer but I I feel like if it makes people happy that's the point. Like if it elevates people you know if if there's a certain like tone or world you want to hang out in and that gets you go to a theater and have a live experience um I think that's like if Harry Potter gets you to go see a musical I think that's a win. Um and uh I I you know but I I I think musically if I think that's the sort of the moment of elevation is it is it music that can hang with you for a lifetime.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Because like because then it's something that transcends beyond that theatrical experience. It's it's something you're singing or sharing or listening to or passing along and I think that's like a huge contribution to cultural zeitgeist.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Yeah. So Greece too Grease too I mean I love Greece.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

I love Greece for sure. Um I've worked on Saturday Night Fever I I think everything is like sort of a a learning curve too because if you're if you're always doing the thing you know well like I don't know it's a little a little redundant. I think it's good to work in different rhythms and different time periods to see you know and and maybe it lands for you maybe it doesn't but just to understand you know how people moved or grooved or um how they felt in a certain time and then you start to see like the universality like oh we're kind of all like feeling the same things throughout life whether we talk about it or not.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

You know? Well I I think that's perfect ending for that perfect question that I perfectly asked. And uh you know we're out of time. But hey this is an amazing interview uh you're very knowledgeable in the craft and uh I'm excited to uh see where this goes uh I I how can somebody watch rhythm or smooth um stay tuned rhythm or Smooth is gonna be out on a festival circuit and then licensed in the next six months so we appreciate everybody uh energy and support of the project and you guys are amazing thanks for having me on tonight.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yeah thank you for being on our pokey little show here we'll make sure to announce how people can watch you on the table all right thank you very much appreciate it thanks for your flexibility too with the time and the