S5-Episode 8 - Interview with Emma DeCaro and Dr. Karwan Al-Dosakee

In this episode of the Kurdistan in America podcast, host Delovan Barwari is joined by Emma DeCaro and Dr. Karwan Al-Dosakee to discuss the Kurdistan Deaf Human Rights Initiative, a transformative project aimed at advancing the rights and services for the deaf community in Kurdistan. They shed light on the challenges faced by deaf individuals, such as the lack of access to sign language education beyond the 9th grade and the very limited opportunities available from 1st to 9th grade.

Emma, Dr. Karwan, and Delovan discuss how the first phase of the project trained sign language interpreters at the American University of Kurdistan in Dohuk and established an advisory committee that includes key stakeholders from the deaf community and government ministries.

Funded by the US Embassy through IREX, the second phase is now ending, focusing on laying the groundwork for standardizing a Kurdish Sign Language (KuSL) documentation process with its natural variations. This process can ultimately support the development of a community-based dictionary to increase opportunities for Deaf education and interpreter training.

This episode offers an in-depth look at the impactful work of the Kurdistan Deaf Human Rights Initiative, a project that began at the KRG Representation and is supported by the KRG, NGOs, and international partners to improve education, accessibility, and rights for the deaf community across Kurdistan.

Tune in to this important discussion on the needs of the Deaf community in Kurdistan. The full transcript, interpreted in Kurdish Sign Language (KuSL), is also available on YouTube—click the link here—with interpretation by Ahmed Ali.

Transcript

Delovan Barwari (00:00)
Welcome to the Kurdistan in America podcast brought to you by the Kurdistan Regional Government representation in the United States. I'm your host, Delovan Barwari. In this episode, we're discussing the Kurdistan Deaf Human Rights Initiative, an important project dedicated to improving the lives and rights of the deaf community in Kurdistan.

I'm joined by two fantastic guests, Emma DeCaro, an international development practitioner who works with deaf communities in the Middle East, and Dr. Karwan Al-Dosakee, the director of skills development at the Duhok Polytechnic University. Together, we'll explore the challenges the deaf community faces, such as limited access to sign language education beyond the ninth grade and a shortage of qualified interpreters.

for essential services like healthcare. This project started at the KRG representation in the US and is one of the most meaningful initiatives I've been part of.

I'm especially thankful to Emma for highlighting this important issue to me during her internship at KRG representation.

Delovan Barwari (01:10)
Stay tuned for this much needed conversation about how these efforts are positively impacting the deaf community in Kurdistan.

Delovan Barwari (01:21)
Emma, Dr. Karwan, welcome to the Kurdistan in America podcast.

Emma (01:27)
Thank you, Delovan, for having us.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (01:29)
Thank you.

Delovan Barwari (01:31)
It's an honor having you. Thank you for joining us today.

Delovan Barwari (01:34)
We're here to discuss the Kurdistan Deaf Human Rights Initiatives and why it's so important.

Before we start the interview, I would like to set the stage. Basically, deaf people in Kurdistan don't have access to sign language education from ninth grade to PhD. And the access that they have from first to ninth is very limited. They don't have the right to drive yet, but as a result of this project, this issue is being resolved soon. It's under evaluation by Ministry of Interior.

And they don't have paid or qualified sign language interpreters to facilitate communication needs for their basic services like healthcare or even at the court.

Emma, you brought this issue to my attention.

when you were an intern at the KRG representation in Washington, and you're finishing your master's degree at Gallaudet University that specializes actually on deaf education. At the time you were engaged with the deaf community in Kurdistan and wanted to advocate for their cause. And you asked me, you asked for my help to raise awareness about this issue. You specifically wanted a meeting with the governor of Dohuk.

And I believe you were engaged with an NGO that was based in Dohuk, and that was the reason. And then I decided that this is actually a very important project, that the best way to tackle this is to make it a KRG representation project.

And we started developing a proposal, a full proposal. And fortunately IREX International funded the first phase of the project.

Delovan Barwari (03:18)
Now we'll delve into things and discuss, why is this so important Emma?

Why is it so important that we should continue working on this project?

Emma (03:32)
Sure. Thank you so much, Delovan, for that introduction and that context. This is so critical for the KRG to make a priority because deaf human rights are really all human rights. They are Kurdish human rights. And if anybody in society is not able to participate fully, it impacts everybody. And so this is a personal passion to me because of interacting with the deaf Kurdish young man who didn't have access to shared sign language for 18 years.

I've now been his mentor since 2018. So his story helped open my eyes up to the world and the richness of what the Kurdish Deaf community has to offer if we only give them the time to listen to what their priorities are and work with them to make solutions to the barriers they're facing every day.

Delovan Barwari (04:19)
Very well, So let's delve into this further. When we started this project, when we started planning for this project, it went from a proposal that took several months to finish into the first phase. And the first phase of the project, we were fortunate that

When I presented it to IREX, they immediately provided the funds for it. And that was the fund for training the trainers. And Emma, you were central to this. And this is when we first met Dr. Caravan as well. He became involved in this project. The project was awarded to the American University of Kurdistan in Dohuk.

Tell us about the project and what did it accomplish?

Emma (05:16)
Sure, from listening to the Kurdish Deaf community leaders in 2022, they said one of their top priorities is having qualified sign language interpreters and ultimately budgets to pay these sign language interpreters as well. And so when we learned about the US -Iraq Higher Education Partnership Program between the US Embassy in Baghdad and administered by IREX and then the KRG Higher Education Ministry with scientific research, we decided that this would be a great opportunity to bring sign language training to a collegiate level. And so we were able to do an eight week pilot program. Thanks a lot in part to Dr. Karwan Al-Dosakee for all of his on the ground recruiting and liaising where we taught 19 students in tandem with deaf local sign language teachers about the principles and fundamentals of sign language interpreting as a profession and then Kurdish sign language as its own legitimate and complete language.

Delovan Barwari (06:16)
Very well. Now, one of the things that this project did in the first phase is that it created an advisory committee, a broad -based advisory committee that included also the members of the deaf community and the NGOs that are engaged with it or are supporting the deaf community. so that basically created a platform, which I think it was one of the most important things.

because it set the agenda that led us to the second phase of this project. And this is where I also met Dr. Karwan, who's with us today, that will talk about his work and his contribution to this project, that set the stage for the bigger, broader agenda of this project. And I want to

let the audience know that from the start of this project, the prime minister of Kurdistan region has been supporting every had personally reached out to him and brought this project into his attention. And he has, he responded and said he fully supports this and he will provide the resources necessary resources to,

KRG is capable of providing what's in his power to,

move this project forward. So now we're on the second stage of this project and we have created an advisory committee, a KRG advisory committee that is made up of the Ministry of Higher Education, advisor from Ministry of

Education, an advisor, the Deputy Minister actually from Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, the Senior Advisor for the Prime Minister, His Excellency Masrour Barzani, and myself and Dr. Karwan as well. He is a member of / an advisor of this KRG Task Force. 

Now,before we delve into the second project, one of the issues that we tried to raise, Emma, you could talk about this more in detail, was the infrastructure.

Tell us about the infrastructure. What is it that was missing in that part? And you actually were the leader in establishing this master plan that included the infrastructure, the dictionary, and

joining the World Federation of the Deaf?

Can you elaborate on the primary ones, please?

Emma (09:02)
Sure. So yes, from that listening session back in 22, that's what informed the concept note that my colleagues and I, with deaf Kurdish leaders, we developed together. And then you,f Delovan, really helped us shape it and map it all together into a bigger picture. And the infrastructure needs are vast. Everything from we need more and larger deaf schools so that we can...

accommodate and reach all the deaf students that are especially outside of major Governorates. So everything from literal building infrastructure to more training and education and curriculum resources for the teachers of deaf students and then ultimately interpreters, which would open up more higher education opportunities. And then most critically, and what the second phase is hopefully going to lead into ultimately, is the foundational research about Kurdish Sign Language and how to document it in a deaf -led approach,

so that it can be formally learned and taught across the entire Kurdistan region.

Delovan Barwari (10:05)
Very well, so let's go back to the infrastructure itself. In there, you mentioned that deaf people in the care don't have paid or qualified sound language interpreters to facilitate communication. Now, how did the first phase of training the trainers, did that help address this issue?

Emma (10:31)
Yes, we viewed it as a small first step, but a critical first step because nothing like this had been done before in Kurdistan. And so there were 19 student graduates from that course. I would say at least three or four of them are incredibly qualified to be interpreting right now, but there's more training and more

hands -on experience that's needed to get the rest of them and then hopefully a larger pool across all of the governorates qualified to be interpreting things like press briefings for the prime minister, emergency press conferences, doctor's appointments, legal hearings. Anywhere deaf people go interpreters are needed. And so this was great to create the curriculum and the foundational infrastructure, but there's definitely a lot more

funding and interpreters needed to help fill the gap.

Delovan Barwari (11:26)
And the next part of the project that it's in the master plan was the dictionary, the application to expand an existing dictionary. Now first, tell me about the current status of that dictionary and what it needs or maybe there are more than one that, why is this so important?

Emma (11:49)
So there have been several printed dictionaries across the years, even some as recently as this past year, of different educational related words, math, science, history. And most of those have been really good faith efforts led by teachers of deaf schools with still images or drawings of the signs. However, we've we've come to learn and research has shown that

videos and a more visual IT based approach to a dictionary is super beneficial for deaf learners, families of deaf people and teachers alike because the visual nature of the language is limited when it's put on a 2D piece of paper. And so at this point, the phase that this project is in with IREX is collecting research on 100 words to see where the variations are across the governance,to show deaf research collectors how to do the work themselves. And we hope that ultimately that can feed into longer-term processes of building out a dictionary app in future phases. I'm sure Dr. Karwan would like to comment on that as well since he's been chairing the IT committee.

Delovan Barwari (13:05)
Yes, please, Dr. Karwan, if you could give your insight about this project itself. And if you could elaborate on the second phase as well, that you are involved and Emma, you are as well on the IREX side that the second phase was also funded by IREC. And the initial objective was to decide on a standard sign language because from my understanding is that there are

three sign languages in Kurdistan, three different ones,

Emma (13:38)
May I respond to that real quick before Dr. Karwan hops in? There are definitely variations and that's what this research project is hoping to confirm is how similar and how different the signs are between among the three Governorates. And we want to establish an official process for documenting the sign language. There are natural variations in any sign language and any spoken language. We've actually learned that Kurdish has at least five words for the word “food.”

And so we're not trying to eliminate variations per se, but at least get everything documented so deaf people feel like they are included in the entire process.

Delovan Barwari (14:15)
So that actually tells you how rich the Kurdish cuisine is.

Emma (14:19)
Yes, exactly.

Delovan Barwari (14:24)
So Dr. Karwan, please, if you could give us your insight on this.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (14:27)
Yes. Yeah, thank you very much. So well, let me express my thanks to you, Kak Delovan, for organizing this podcast. This project is an initiative and dedicated to advocate for the rights and inclusion for the deaf community at Kurdistan region of Iraq. So it leads, as you mentioned before, by the prime minister office with three related ministries Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs.

Ministry of Education and Ministry of Higher Education. Each ministry plays vital roles in this project. So as you both mentioned that we are now in the phase two after the successful phase one at the AUK. So at the beginning of this phase, we assign the main role to the Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs as they are

very involved in this project. So we established two task force, two main committees, one to work in parallel with the IREX in the data collection and data analysis, and also the IT committee. The IT commiittee’s role is to help to do the system analysis and to...

study the prototype of the creating the first prototype of the Kurdish Sign Language mobile application and the database and we are now working on that and the second task force or community is included members from the three Hiwa institutes at the three cities also members from Deaf association

Delovan Barwari (16:21)
Now, Dr. Karwan, if you could elaborate on your part of the KRG advisory committee as well, and you help, we had several meetings and you helped put together a plan from the KRG, from each of the ministries. Can you tell us about that, about, you compiled actually that plan.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (16:42)
Yes. Yes, now I have been assigned to the role for the liaising between the three ministries and at the same time with the IREX team. And in addition to that, as a teacher, my motivation for supporting [the] Kurdish human rights project comes from my belief that the role of the education to opening opportunity and doors for the deaf community, yet we see there are many barriers, especially in the education. Maybe this project will present an opportunity to advocate for that and ensuring the deaf individuals  have the right for education and to access to the other KRG services and also to be employed. So this is my main motivation to...

to be part of this project.

Delovan Barwari (17:43)
Absolutely, you know one of the the points that I want to go back to is that

There are currently an estimated of 10,000 deaf individuals in the Kurdistan region that are registered with the KRG. But that figure may actually be much higher. Emma, you were actually the one that raised this to my attention that the real number is, according to World Health Organization, may be higher. Can you tell me about that?

Emma (18:19)
Sure, the World Health Organization estimates that at least 5 % of the global population has significant hearing loss. And so if we apply that to the Kurdistan population, that could be as high as 325 ,000 deaf people across the entire region. And so that is a huge segment of the population that is lacking access to public services and communication because of the infrastructure barriers.

Delovan Barwari (18:46)
so that figure, the exclusion of the disabled community from contributing to the economy is approximately that $2 .28 billion in annual GDP loss. Is that based on

the World Health Organization?

Emma (19:08)
So that's by the International Labour Organization and that was actually a study they conducted on the price of exclusion about disabilities in general. And that figure was extrapolated from looking at an African country's GDP that was very similar to Kurdistan's. And so based on that, that's how that number was calculated. And that looks like people who are deaf, people who are blind, people who are wheelchair users, any type of disability.

If employers are not required to make accommodations to include them in the workforce, then we are missing out on this gem, on this resource that could be contributing to the economy.

Delovan Barwari (19:51)
Absolutely, absolutely. The figures, if it's 5 % of the population, with a figure of 300 ,000 or so, or over 300 ,000, that's a huge loss to the Kurdistan's GDP. Now, Emma, I want to turn back to one of the points that was in the master plan, was joining the World Federation of the Deaf. Can you tell me about that? Why is that so important?

Emma (20:19)
Sure. It is the governing body for all deaf organizations and federations in worldwide. And currently Kurdistan has about three to five deaf led organizations. And so they have actually already gotten in contact with WFD and by joining the organizations that are based in Baghdad, they're going to make sure that Kurdish deaf voices are represented at future World Federation of the Deaf Congresses.

and other events going forward. And this is actually super critical because WFD tracks where sign language is legally recognized. And at this point, as of 2024, no countries in the Middle East have legally recognized their sign language, which leaves a big opportunity if Kurdistan wants to be the first they can. And I think that's why this research is happening at such a critical time as well.

Delovan Barwari (21:16)
So that would also be a very good networking platform for the KRG and the NGOs that joined that federation as well.

Emma (21:27)
Yes, and in 2027, the next World Congress will be hosted in the United Arab Emirates. So that would be perfect for Kurdistan to be represented at for the first time ever since the federation was founded in the 1950s.

Delovan Barwari (21:41)
Very well. Now, you also have a message from the deaf community in Kurdistan. Can you share that with us?

Emma (21:48)
Yes, the committee members on the committee that Dr. Karwan alluded to for this phase two, there's at least five deaf members and kind of the chair of that segment of it is named Ahmed Ali. And is a teacher assistant in Erbil at the local Hiwa school. And so he conferred with the rest of them and has the statement to share in addition to gratitude for you, Delovan and the KRG USA shining a spotlight on their community.

He says, are several systems that we would love to see growth and reform in. Kurdish Sign Language training for teachers of deaf students, equal pay and opportunities for deaf teachers at these schools, a training institute long -term for sign language interpreters, and as we mentioned, KuSL to be recognized as an official language in Kurdistan. We want to see a deaf language mentor program that allows for direct intervention when families have a deaf baby at the hospital.

Deaf people can do anything that non -deaf people can do. Sign language is key. And we want to be viewed and respected as equals to non -deaf people across Kurdistan.

Delovan Barwari (22:57)
Thanks for sharing that. Well, my message and my answer to that is that we will do our best as KRG and as members of the advisory committee, KRG advisory committee to address these issues. We value the community and we are fully supportive. We'll try our best

Emma (23:18)
Thank you and Zor Supas on their behalf.

Delovan Barwari (23:23)
Thank you so much for your advocacy and for all your efforts of you Emma and Dr. Karwan as well. Thank you so much. Dr. Karwan now before we end this Interview would you like to add anything that we missed?

Karwan Al-Dosakee (23:36)
You

Emma (23:49)
Dr. Karwan.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (23:51)
Okay, So, yes, maybe it's a message for the whole Kurdish community. So I encourage everyone to, and also the policymakers to support the deaf community by learning about their challenges and advocate for the chance to open doors for the Kurdish deaf community in Kurdistan region of Iraq.

Together we can create a more inclusive community and bring justice to society. I would like to express my gratitude to Emma and Eli for their time and effort and support for the Kurdish death community in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. And also thank you, Kak Delovan, for your effort as well.

Delovan Barwari (24:45)
It's an honor working with you, Kak Karwan and Emma. Thank you so much. And all the support that Eli has given.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (24:49)
Yeah.

Emma (24:51)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Shout out to Eli. And yes, I just want to clarify and extend gratitude again to the U .S. Embassy in Baghdad for the funding and IREX for administering these phases of the program and just share the sentiment that's expressed by disability communities all over the world, which is “nothing about us without us.” And so they want to be at the table. They want to be in the conversations about decision making processes that impact their lives.

And so much so that we even talked about interpreting this episode into Kurdish Sign Language so that deaf Kurdish individuals can have access to what's being shared today. So thank you Delovan for giving us this opportunity.

Delovan Barwari (25:34)
Well, thank you so much for raising that, Emma. Absolutely grateful for the U.S. Embassy for funding this project and IREX for supporting it and implementing it as well, collectively with the KRG Ministries and all the members that are involved in this initiative. And thank you so much for all your efforts and I look forward to continued collaboration. We have...

Karwan Al-Dosakee (25:35)
right

Delovan Barwari (26:01)
many things to work on, you know, and this is just only the beginning, hopefully, the second phase, and there are many phases as outlined in the master plan that we have drafted. And thank you so much for your time today. It's an honor having you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Karwan Al-Dosakee (26:15)
Thank you very much, everyone. It's our pleasure. Thank you very much. Bye bye.

Emma (26:17)
You're welcome. Take care.